Jabberwocky - Esperanto
Serenleono
Lewis Carroll), born 27 January 1832 (died 14 January 1898).
LA JXARGONBESTO
Brilumis, kaj la sxlirtaj melfoj
en la ie jo gxiris sxrauxs;
mizaris la maldikdudelfoj,
forfuraj ratjoj vauxis.
"Evitu, filo, Jxargonbeston!
-- Ungoj kaj busx' por mord' kaj kapt'!
Evitu bombonbirdan neston!
Vin gardu kontraux Bendorapt'!"
Vorpalan glavon li elprenis,
kaj vagis post la best' vostunta;
al rabrabarbo li alvenis,
ripozis en medit' profunda.
Dum staris li, pensante sie,
La Jxargonbesto flamokula
Tra nugraj arboj fajfefie
Alvenis, babulula!
Jen unu! du! kaj tra kaj tro
Vorpala klingo, krake-frap'!
Morto! Galopsxke la hero'
Reiris kun la kap'!
"Cxu Jxargonbeston frapis vi?
Mun cxirkauxbraku, luma filo!
Trofeferi'! Hej ho, hu hi!"
Eksplodis gxojotrilo.
Brilumis, kaj la sxlirtaj melfoj
en la iejo gxiris, sxrauxis;
mizaris la maldikdudelfoj,
forfuraj ratjoj vauxis.
-- "La Jxargonbesto", an Esperanto translation of Lewis
Carroll's "Jabberwocky" by Marjorie Boulton (year of
translation unknown), from ANGLA ANTOLOGIO II
(1800 - 1960), published in 1987 by the Esperanto-
Asocio de Britujo (British Esperanto Association).
Available, along with versions by other translators, at
<ftp://ftp.stack.nl/pub/esperanto/esperanto-texts.dir/gxaberuxoko.txt>.
Note: since Esperanto uses characters not available in plain ASCII
text, I've used the standard Usenet method of simulating the extra
characters -- namely using the letter "x" (which doesn't exist in the
Esperanto alphabet) after the character which takes a supersign.
--
Seren
"Trofeferi'! Hej ho, hu hi!", eksplodis gxojotrilo.
Jo Ann Malina
> In honour of the birthday of Charles Lutwidge Dodgson (pseudonym:
> Lewis Carroll), born 27 January 1832 (died 14 January 1898).
>
> LA JXARGONBESTO
>
> Brilumis, kaj la sxlirtaj melfoj
> en la ie jo gxiris sxrauxs;
> mizaris la maldikdudelfoj,
> forfuraj ratjoj vauxis.
You know, this is the first post I remember seeing on usenet that was
easier to pronounce after rot-13 encoding than before (well, almost).
YN WKNETBAORFGB
Oevyhzvf, xnw yn fkyvegnw zrysbw
ra yn vr wb tkvevf fkenhkf;
zvmnevf yn znyqvxqhqrysbw,
sbeshenw engwbw inhkvf.
--
Jo Ann Malina, make spamthis best to find my address
No! No! Sentence first, verdict afterwards. -- L. Carroll, _Alice's
Adventures in Wonderland_
(or was it Henry Hyde?)
The Sanity Inspector
>Jo Ann Malina <jma...@spamthis.com> scripsit:
>
>>You know, this is the first post I remember seeing on usenet that was
>>easier to pronounce after rot-13 encoding than before (well, almost).
>
><chuckle>
>
>> YN WKNETBAORFGB
>>
>> Oevyhzvf, xnw yn fkyvegnw zrysbw
>> ra yn vr wb tkvevf fkenhkf;
>> zvmnevf yn znyqvxqhqrysbw,
>> sbeshenw engwbw inhkvf.
>
>You found the Welsh translation! ;-)
Welsh? No, Welsh is all c's, w's, l's, and f's. This looks
rather slavic. If all the accent marks showed up in ascii, I'd say it
was Czech.
--
bruce
The dignified don't even enter in the game.
--The Jam
Serenleono
>Welsh? No, Welsh is all c's, w's, l's, and f's. This looks
>rather slavic. If all the accent marks showed up in ascii, I'd say it
>was Czech.
After rot-13 encoding, it's all Greek -- or Swahili, if you know
Greek.
--
Seren
"Man is still the most extraordinary computer of all." -- John F. Kennedy
th...@my-dejanews.com
ve...@mindspring.com (Serenleono) wrote:
> After rot-13 encoding, it's all Greek -- or Swahili, if you know
> Greek.
In English, we say "It's Greek to me."
The French say "It's Chinese."
I don't know what the Chinese say,
but the esperantists say "Tio estas volapukaj^o" (It's volapük.)
Thomas L. Rochestro
http://www.esperanto.net
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
th...@my-dejanews.com
Jo Ann Malina <jma...@spamthis.com> wrote:
> > Brilumis, kaj la sxlirtaj melfoj
> > en la ie jo gxiris sxrauxs;
> > mizaris la maldikdudelfoj,
> > forfuraj ratjoj vauxis.
>
> You know, this is the first post I remember seeing on usenet that was
> easier to pronounce after rot-13 encoding than before (well, almost).
It's very easy to pronounce Esperanto once you realize that the
combinations SX, GX, and UX represent Esperanto letters which are pronounced
like SH, G (as in George), and W respectively -- and that the letter J is
pronounced like an English Y.
pricer...@my-dejanews.com
th...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
(snip)
> I don't know what the Chinese say,
> but the esperantists say "Tio estas volapukaj^o" (It's volapük.)
And the Danes say "volapyk" (my impression is that most Danes have no idea of
the original referent to Father Schleier's language, it just means
"nonsense", or "gibberish" to them)!
pricer...@my-dejanews.com
th...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
(snip)
> It's very easy to pronounce Esperanto once you realize that the
> combinations SX, GX, and UX represent Esperanto letters which are pronounced
> like SH, G (as in George), and W respectively -- and that the letter J is
> pronounced like an English Y.
Sorry, I can't leave this one alone. I think you underestimate the ability
of English-speakers to mispronounce things, turning unstressed vowels into
schwas, "o"'s into "a"'s, etc. Or to be more accurate, to try to fit every
other language into the sound-system of whatever their own variety of English
has (of course that's not unique to English-speakers!). At the very least
you'd have to explain that the 5 vowels are "pure" vowels like the Italian
vowels taught to trained singers, and the stress always goes ont he
enxt-to-lat syllable in wrods of more than one syllable. You're probably
cor4rect that the main hang-up of the poster to whom you were replying was
the x-convention for writing the "chapelitaj literoj" in ASCII... but that's
not all keeping someone from pronouncing Esperanto correctly. Interlingua
doesn't have the x-convention.... for that matter neither does Spanish, and
you should hear what some of my friends do to those!
Daniel P. B. Smith
>The French say "It's Chinese."
>but the esperantists say "Tio estas volapukaj^o" (It's volapük.)
>
>http://www.esperanto.net
Seriously? Do they really say that?
Perhaps you should explain... but since you didn't, I will... that
"Volapuk" was the first attempt to construct an artificial world language,
or at least the first attempt that had any degree of success.
Unbelievably, "Volapuk" was supposedly based on English, and the name
"Volapuk" itself was supposedly derived from the two English words "world"
and "speech."
Last time I read about this stuff, which was a long time ago--but it
doesn't matter as the counts are pretty arbitrary--the estimates were that
there were about 2,000 languages--that is to say, natural languages like
Finnish and Swahili and Quechua--and _about 600 artificial languages_ like
Volapuk and Esperanto and Basic English and Interlingua...
--
Daniel P. B. Smith
dpbs...@world.std.com
Serenleono
>In English, we say "It's Greek to me."
In Greece it's often given as "It's Hebrew to me". Molière borrowed
this version, but in French, for one of his plays.
C'est de l'hébreu pour moi.
-- Molière, L'ETOURDI, Act III, scene 3 (1653).
>The French say "It's Chinese."
Some do, perhaps, but they also say:
C'est du grec pour moi.
(It is Greek to me.)
C'est du haut allemand pour moi.
(It is high German to me.)
>I don't know what the Chinese say, but the esperantists
>say "Tio estas volapukaj^o" (It's volapük.)
Or "Tio estas por mi Volapukaj^o", to make the phrases match. (If
nothing else, this thread has at least drawn some esperantistoj to
alt.quotations.)
Related quotes:
I said it in Hebrew -- I said it in Dutch,
I said it in German and Greek;
But I wholly forgot (and it vexes me much)
That English is what you speak!
-- Lewis Carroll, THE HUNTING OF
THE SNARK, Fit the Fourth.
Graecum est, non potest legi.
(It is Greek, it cannot be read.)
-- Francesco Accursius, GLOSSA (c. C.E. 1230).
Often given as "Graecum est, non legitur".
There's an old story related to the above quote, well known to
Oxonians (especially those who attended the Queen's College), that
I'll have to tell at a later date.
Beside, 'tis known he could speak Greek
As naturally as pigs squeak;
That Latin was no more difficile
Than to a blackbird 'tis to whistle.
-- Samuel Butler, HUDIBRAS.
Non mi è latino.
(It is not Latin to me.)
-- Dante, reversing the idiom.
This gear is Greek to me.
-- George Gascoigne, trans., SUPPOSES,
Act. I, scene 1 (1575).
Greek is to a man of position what the
hallmark is to silver.
-- George Bernard Shaw, MAJOR BARBARA, Act I.
--
Serenleono, "la serena leono"
"C^evalo, c^evalo! La regnon por c^evalo!"
(A horse, a horse! My kingdom for a horse!)
Serenleono
>You're probably cor4rect that the main hang-up of the poster to whom
>you were replying was the x-convention for writing the "chapelitaj literoj"
>in ASCII...
This discussion doesn't really belong in alt.quotations. That's what
soc.culture.esperanto, sci.lang, and alt.language.artificial are for.
However, if anyone is really interested in the various methods of
representing Esperanto characters in ASCII, or the planned language
Esperanto in general, I suggest the soc.culture.esperanto FAQ at
<http://www.lib.ox.ac.uk/internet/news/faq/archive/esperanto-faq.html>.
As the above-mentioned FAQ will show, there are several available
methods for representing the five circumflexed consonants and one
accented vowel that are part of the Esperanto alphabet in ASCII.
Using an "x" (which isn't part of the Esperanto alphabet) after the
letter to represent those characters is one of the most widely
accepted. It may not be *your* preferred method, but it's proven
effective for Usenet.
ObQuote:
Quot capitum vivunt, totidem studiorum milia.
(For every thousand souls there are a thousand tastes.)
-- Quintus Horatius Flaccus (Horace), SATIRAE.
Cxar Miaj pensoj ne estas viaj pensoj,
kaj viaj vojoj ne estas Miaj vojoj, diras la Eternulo
-- Jesaja 55.8 (L. L. Zamenhof, tr., LA
SANKTA BIBLIO).
For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
-- Isaiah 55.8 (AV/KJV).
th...@my-dejanews.com
dpbs...@world.std.com (Daniel P. B. Smith) wrote:
> >but the esperantists say "Tio estas volapukaj^o" (It's volapük.)
>
> Seriously? Do they really say that?
Well, at least it's in the dictionary. I can't say that I've heard exactly
that, but I've heard enough jokes about Volapük so that I'm sure this phrase
would be instantly understood.
> Perhaps you should explain... but since you didn't, I will...
Nah, I figured if anyone was interested, they'd ask. Thanks for saving me
the trouble.
> "Volapuk" was the first attempt to construct an artificial world language,
> or at least the first attempt that had any degree of success.
Although it has no speakers today, and those who do speak it, seem to learn
it out of historical interest.
> Unbelievably, "Volapuk" was supposedly based on English, and the name
> "Volapuk" itself was supposedly derived from the two English words "world"
> and "speech."
I believe that while the words vol and pük came from English, he had other
source languages too, but that's a minor point.
> Last time I read about this stuff, which was a long time ago--but it
> doesn't matter as the counts are pretty arbitrary--the estimates were that
> there were about 2,000 languages--that is to say, natural languages like
> Finnish and Swahili and Quechua--and _about 600 artificial languages_ like
> Volapuk and Esperanto and Basic English and Interlingua...
I'll agree that they are arbitrary. Also, the number of planned languages
easily aproaches the number of national languages. The problem with that,
though, is that most planned languages are only spoken by their creator - if
that. Esperanto is the only planned language with any measurable speaker
base, and any practical application to speak of.
Thomas L. Rochestro
http://www.esperanto.net
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
th...@my-dejanews.com
pricer...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Sorry, I can't leave this one alone. I think you underestimate the ability
> of English-speakers to mispronounce things, turning unstressed vowels into
> schwas, "o"'s into "a"'s, etc.
Sorry. However, although you are technically correct, I think you violated
the spirit of my note. The point was that "gxojas" is hard to say if you
think it should sound like "gskogas."
edward....@mail.trincoll.edu
clever ones learn Latin as an honour, and Greek as a treat.
SOURCE/NOTES: Winston Churchill, My Early Life (1930), ch.2, Oxford Dictionary
of Quotations
In article <36c4b250...@news.mindspring.com>,
ve...@mindspring.com (Serenleono) wrote:
> th...@my-dejanews.com skribis:
>
> >In English, we say "It's Greek to me."
>
> In Greece it's often given as "It's Hebrew to me". Molière borrowed
> this version, but in French, for one of his plays.
>
> C'est de l'hébreu pour moi.
> -- Molière, L'ETOURDI, Act III, scene 3 (1653).
>
> >The French say "It's Chinese."
>
> Some do, perhaps, but they also say:
>
> C'est du grec pour moi.
> (It is Greek to me.)
>
> C'est du haut allemand pour moi.
> (It is high German to me.)
>
> >I don't know what the Chinese say, but the esperantists
> >say "Tio estas volapukaj^o" (It's volapük.)
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
pricer...@my-dejanews.com
th...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
(snip)
> that. Esperanto is the only planned language with any measurable speaker
> base, and any practical application to speak of.
Oh dear, I'm afraid I have to keep you honest again! ;-) You would have done
better to say "any _appreciable_ speaker base". The speaker base of Klingon,
for example, is certainly measurable, although the KLI head says they could
comfortably dine together. The speaker base of Interlingua may well be
larger than that. I don't know about Lojban or Ido, but I'd be very
surprised if there were less than a half-dozen people who spoke each of them.
Granted that Esperanto, at several hundred thousand, or perhaps as many as
two million, is several orders of magnitude more widely spoken than these
other constructed languages, their speech communities are still _measurable_.
One other quibble: "planned language" is used in linguistics to name a
category which includes language like Bahasa Indonesia, which has more than
50 million native speakers and at least twice that many second lnaguage
speakers.... and that's pretty durned "measurable"! I know that in Esperanto
we use the word "planlingvo" to describe the languages you referred to, but
if you simply translate it into English literally you can both mislead and be
misled. "constructed language" (or just "conlang") is probably a better
choice, although ugly. :-(
Ankaux mi kaptos la okazon oferti por via amuzo la jenan URL-on:
<http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/7243/volapuk.html>.
Bondezirojn,
Georgo
pricer...@my-dejanews.com
ve...@mindspring.com (Serenleono) wrote:
(trancx')
> Cxar Miaj pensoj ne estas viaj pensoj,
> kaj viaj vojoj ne estas Miaj vojoj, diras la Eternulo
> -- Jesaja 55.8 (L. L. Zamenhof, tr., LA
> SANKTA BIBLIO).
>
> For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
> neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
> -- Isaiah 55.8 (AV/KJV).
I'd never before thought of this passage as a lofty version of "live and let
live"! ;-)
(BTW, I use the x-convention all the time, myself. What I meant was simply
that, in my experience, English-speakers who know no Esperanto, and who see
Esperanto written that way, nearly always think it "looks strange". This is
a problem for people who don't know the language, not for those who do. I'm
pretty sure they react to Albanaian or Hungarian the same way.)
obQuotation: Sic volvere parcas.
th...@my-dejanews.com
pricer...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Oh dear, I'm afraid I have to keep you honest again! ;-) You would have done
> better to say "any _appreciable_ speaker base".
I thought about it as I said it, but I figured that if anyone cared, they'd
take me to task. I didn't suspect it would be YOU! ;-)
> Ankaux mi kaptos la okazon oferti por via amuzo la jenan URL-on:
> <http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/7243/volapuk.html>.
That's a dead link.
Thomas L. Rochestro
http://www.esperanto.net
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
pricer...@my-dejanews.com
th...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <79pr21$goa$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> pricer...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > Ankaux mi kaptos la okazon oferti por via amuzo la jenan URL-on:
> > <http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/7243/volapuk.html>.
>
> That's a dead link.
Shucks! You're right! And it was such a nice website, too, complete with
little 5 or 10-lesson (I disremember the exact number) beginner's course in
Volapuk. Wonder what happened to it. Maybe I'll ask Sebastian Hartwig (I
don't think it was his, but someone else's; I don;t remember who it was).
obQuotation: "Information is that which is correct but not (necessarily)
true; logic is that which is valid but not true; mathematics is that which is
consistent but not true." obMisquotation: "Le silence eternel de ces espaces
infinis me plait."
pricer...@my-dejanews.com
th...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <79pr21$goa$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> pricer...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
(snip)
> > Ankaux mi kaptos la okazon oferti por via amuzo la jenan URL-on:
> > <http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/7243/volapuk.html>.
>
> That's a dead link.
Shucks! You're right! And it was such a nice website, too, complete with a
Amra
Serenleono wrote in message <36c4b250...@news.mindspring.com>...
>th...@my-dejanews.com skribis:
>
>Often given as "Graecum est, non legitur".
>There's an old story related to the above quote, well known to
>Oxonians (especially those who attended the Queen's College), that
>I'll have to tell at a later date.
Perhaps you could attribute this for me - it sounds like something Oxonians
might know about :-)
This is from long-distant memory (and I don't know where I came across it).
Most irritatingly of all, I can't remember the very first line...
"...
As a cedar tall and slender,
Sweet cowslips' grace is her nom'native case
And she's of the feminine gender.
Could I decline a nymph divine?
Her voice as a flute is dulcis;
Her oculus bright,
Her manus white,
And soft when I tacto her pulse is.
Oh, how bella my puella
I'll kiss her in saecula saeculorum,
If I've luck Sir,
She's my uxor,
Oh Dies Benedictorum!"
There was a chorus that came between each verse as well - something like
"Horum, norum sunt divorum..." but my memory fails me. If anyone knows what
tune this was sung to, I'd be deliriously happy!
Amra
Amra
pricer...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
>Sorry, I can't leave this one alone. I think you underestimate the ability
>of English-speakers to mispronounce things, turning unstressed vowels >into
schwas, "o"'s into "a"'s, etc.
Hah! You think you've got problems? Try listening to tourists attempting
Welsh (place-names mostly) and see how well you keep your sanity :-)
Oops! This is a .quotations group, isn't it? Let's see...
"To be born Welsh is to be born privileged;
Not with a silver spoon in your mouth,
But with music in your blood
And poetry in your soul."
No idea where it's from, unfortunately...
Amra
th...@my-dejanews.com
"Amra" <phantom...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Serenleono wrote in message <36c4b250...@news.mindspring.com>...
> >th...@my-dejanews.com skribis:
> >
>
> >Often given as "Graecum est, non legitur".
> >There's an old story related to the above quote, well known to
> >Oxonians (especially those who attended the Queen's College), that
> >I'll have to tell at a later date.
It almost looks like you're saying that I said this.
FWIW, I didn't. How confusing for alt.quotations.
Thomas L. Rochestro
http://www.esperanto.net
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Serenleono
>It almost looks like you're saying that I said this.
>FWIW, I didn't. How confusing for alt.quotations.
I really don't know how you could have come to that conclusion. See
my original post. It's quite clear that I was offering the quote
myself. I'll return with the promised story when I have time.
--
Seren
"If Tinky Winky were gay, he'd have better taste in handbags."
-- bran...@aol.com, alt.tv.teletubbies, 3 Oct. 1998 (paraphrased)
th...@my-dejanews.com
ve...@mindspring.com (Serenleono) wrote:
> th...@my-dejanews.com skribis:
>
> >It almost looks like you're saying that I said this.
> >FWIW, I didn't. How confusing for alt.quotations.
>
> I really don't know how you could have come to that conclusion. See
> my original post. It's quite clear that I was offering the quote
> myself. I'll return with the promised story when I have time.
I was talking to Amra, not to you. The "you" above in "It looks like you're
saying..." means Amra, not Seren. When Amra quoted you, she included my name
at the top of the quote and didn't add extra "greater than" signs.
To spell it out:
Notice above where it says "thos1@my-dejanews skribis" - there is one greater
than sign. Then look at what I said ("It almost looks like...") -- there are
two greater than signs. This is how it should be.
This is not how it was in Amra's note.
This is how I could have come to that conclusion.
You and I are saying the same thing. I don't need to check your original
post, because I already agree with you.
To everyone else -- sorry about these last few notes, they're really stupid.
This will be my last note on this topic.
Thomas L. Rochestro
William C Waterhouse
In article <79v7k7$t81$3...@news1.cableinet.co.uk>,
> This is from long-distant memory (and I don't know where I came across it).
> Most irritatingly of all, I can't remember the very first line...
>
> "...
> As a cedar tall and slender,
> Sweet cowslips' grace is her nom'native case
> And she's of the feminine gender.
>
>....
The first line is
Amo, amas, I love a lass,
and the author (according to the ODQ) was John O'Keeffe (1747-1833).
It occurs as a song in Act 2, Scene 2 of his play _The Agreeable
Surprise_ (1781).
I only remember the tune vaguely. In C, the opening two lines
are something like
GEGEGEGE
GGAGECEG.
(Possibly it's GFGEGFGE at the beginning.)
William C. Waterhouse
Penn State
Amra
th...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <7a1mji$e82$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>I was talking to Amra, not to you. The "you" above in "It looks like
you're
>saying..." means Amra, not Seren. When Amra quoted you, she included my
name
>at the top of the quote and didn't add extra "greater than" signs.
And Amra is very sorry for the general chaos thus generated, and apologises
profusely to Thomas :-)
Sorry.
Amra
Amra
William C Waterhouse wrote in message <7a2bmd$p...@r02n01.cac.psu.edu>...
>The first line is
>
>Amo, amas, I love a lass,
>
>and the author (according to the ODQ) was John O'Keeffe (1747-1833).
>It occurs as a song in Act 2, Scene 2 of his play _The Agreeable
>Surprise_ (1781).
Thanks very much indeed... Does anyone know where a score for this might
exist? It strikes me as a potentially good song for re-enactment events
:-)
Thanks all,
Amra
mario...@usa.net
> Non mi č latino.
> (It is not Latin to me.)
> -- Dante, reversing the idiom.
Or in a more direct way:
ma or m'aiuta ciň che tu mi dici,
sě che raffigurar m'č piů latino.
(what you say helps me, that to figure it out is more latin to me)
Paradiso: Canto III
Mario
Tom
> Thanks very much indeed... Does anyone know where a score for this might
> exist? It strikes me as a potentially good song for re-enactment events
> :-)
There's a recording on an old LP by the Deller Consort. If you can
locate a copy of the record, it shouldn't be difficult to take off the
melody. The liner notes may even give the original source, in which case
a visit to a good library (e.g., Lincoln Center here in New York) might
get it for you.
Tom Parsons
--
--
t...@panix.com | Man thrives where angels would die
| of ecstasy and where pigs would die
http://www.panix.com/~twp | of disgust. --Kenneth Rexroth