Re: hey denise
raynd...@hotmail.co.uk
Feel free to tell me what you want about the history between Joe and
yourself, as I can understand the frustration it causes you knowing
I've only heard one side.
But to be honest - I don't see why your past internet history with Joe
should still be an issue for you, or have any relevance to the current
situation.
I've always been of the opinion that you wanted more relationship-wise
than Joe was willing to offer, and thats about it. Correct me if I'm
wrong!
Denise
Heather
I'm nearly at the can't be bothered stage.I might mail you i might not.
Joe showed me some of your equipment btw. Nice! Why didn't you have it
at home btw? And no thank you, you're a lovely woman but I must decline
the offer. Yes Joe did make a few suggestive comments and not just
involving him.
Me I'm just a white coat girl.-feel free to read about it on the castle
site and jeez being on a desert island with him. Pick Helen not me.
(Anyway about over a month ago I passed you in your car. You were
crying and sitting with Ray.Of course it might have been an eyelash and
I've got it all wrong. I told Joe this and he said what I'm I meant to
do about it.We'll she's your friend I told him. Did he phone you,txt
you, say anything? I've no doubt that you are there for him but
friendship is meant to be a two way street.)
All I want(ed) is a confession and apology. All that would have been
required would have been him to say something to me ealier on this year
BUT no I "dig up the dirt" on him in this medium.
I told him everything although I thought "we were on a break" when I
cheated (if you're reading this sweetie there I've got it in!!!!)
Back to dirt. He defied me to find more dirt on him 3 years ago when
Lisa first popped up.(again castlenet site which he told me about) Em
did he want me to find things out that way. It's always such a lovely
way to find out about your sexual partner.
I think it was common decency to tell me he had a "new" girlfriend and
who she was and to say well I've been seeing her all along. Jeez I read
their txt messages way back in 2004.
Did he want me find out about Lisa at all? Or was it better I didn't
know because I could still be an option (Kitchen table conversation,
Joe, about Feb this year. Yes a 2 way conv. but I've always been open)
and how obvious he made it that I was still option material. ("Old
habits die hard".Joe it was a cuddle because you were crying not an
invite to my chest, nor was it an invite to my chest at your dad's
funeral)
Although you'll know Denise I've not been an option for quite a while
but hey it didn't stop the old dog from trying.
So I've got a list and I'm curious.Who's Linda?
And I'm still laughing at the change bit. Does that also include
spending time with his daughter now or is he so loved up that she's to
take a back seat again? Three txt messages about this weekend. Can you
remind him to reply Denise?
raynd...@hotmail.co.uk
<<Joe showed me some of your equipment btw. Nice! >>
Glad you liked them!
<<Why didn't you have it at home btw? >>
I was at my mums house at that point, and I didn't have much privacy
there.
<<Yes Joe did make a few suggestive comments and not just involving
him>>
I do know what you mean by this - but I shall save blushes by not going
into it!!
<<Anyway about over a month ago I passed you in your car. You were
crying and sitting with Ray.Of course it might have been an eyelash and
I've got it all wrong. I told Joe this and he said what I'm I meant to
do about it.We'll she's your friend I told him. Did he phone you,txt
you, say anything?>>
He did phone me to ask if I was OK, but I didn't know what he was
talking about! and haven't given it any thought since then. I haven't
cried in a while and really can't think when you were referring to.
Was I parked up at the shops beside your house before work? But if I
was sitting with Ray then I must have been parked... I'm puzzled -
unless it was an eyelash or something? Dunno!
<<I've no doubt that you are there for him but friendship is meant to
be a two way street.) >>
I agree... friendship is meant to be a 2 way street - and I don't doubt
that it is between me and Joe. If I ever need him, he is always there
for me. We speak almost daily and see each other frequently (saw him
earlier tonight as it so happens) There have been times like when I
lived in Glasgow that we didn't see each other quite so often - but we
still spoke on the phone or in email... Anyway, it's not the strength
my friendship with Joe that should be in question.
<<All I want(ed) is a confession and apology>>
That is something you need to speak to him about - I can't comment on
that. Same goes for the "lisa' questions you asked.
<< So I've got a list and I'm curious.Who's Linda? >>
Linda is an old friend of mine, who admittedly I haven't seen much of
lately. She will be about 29 or 30 by now, and lives near St Andrews.
She is divorced and has a beautiful daughter aged 9.
<<Does that also include spending time with his daughter now or is he
so loved up that she's to take a back seat again>>
I hope he can spend more time with Charlotte - but that's up to you at
the end of the day. I don't think her taking a 'back seat' is something
Joe or Lisa would want. If they are a couple then I would have imagined
she'd become a significant part of their lives.
It would only be your intervention that would prevent that from
happening.
Again, that is something for you and Joe to discuss. I just assumed
that when you settle down with someone Charlotte would obviously have
contact with him, and vise-versa with Joe and his relationship with
Lisa.
Joe knows he needs to reply to the texts about the weekend.
Denise .
Heather
back seat. She's now started to question why other fathers take their
children for the weekend. There are sadly a lot of broken families at
school with her.
You will notice even by looking at his posts he's been off the last 2
weekends.Too busy being loved up?
One thing at least he did turn up to her show. The second time in 8
years he's actually bothered. I've lost count of the number of tickets
I've bought for him that have gone to waste. It's only seems that when
I'm in the picture that Charlotte gets attention.
For the record I've never stopped him seeing her but he's always been
too busy. I've had years and years of this.
I find it more noticable during the school holidays.She'd been off for
3 weeks before he turned up to see her last year.Another time he saw
her once during the 6 week break.
"I'm not taking her just when it suits you" quote ,unquote
" I don't know what to do with her"
While we're on quotes ( sorry I do write every thing done)
"I'm not a fountain of money"- said when he was working in her cafe
when I asked if he'd pay half of Charlotte's birthday party in 2003.
People you can read that he actually was more interested in finding a
book for Lisa for her birthday(castenet site Feb/Mar2003, Charlotte's
birthday is in March btw.
He jetted off to see Lorraine in Canada when he was meant to be taking
Charlotte to nursry after I started uni. I had to ask my dad. Thank god
for my parents.
He's her daughter too.
Charlotte should be a significant part of his life now not just because
he's got a "new" woman.
If they last a year I'll consider allowing Charlotte to meet
her(again). I just don't want my daughter meeting a long line of women
.After all they've only been together for a couple of months. It is
early days isn't it??????
And as for discussing anything with him I'd rather talk to a tree.
Anyway when am I going to talk to him he's always too busy.
He can't even answer a bloody simple question- are you seeing your
daughter this weekend? I asked this on Thursday and this is now
Saturday.
People I give you Joe Lamb
raynd...@hotmail.co.uk
<<She's now started to question why other fathers take their children
for the weekend>>
Has taking Charlotte for a weekend ever been an option for Joe? I know
when Joe was unemployed, the weekends were normally when he had a his
acting gigs on, so that might narrow down available time.
But now he has a normal 9-5 job, I would have thought he'd like to have
Charlotte stay over?
<<There are sadly a lot of broken families at school with her. >>
I know this. Remember I was part of that statistic too a few years ago.
What I can say from experience in 'broken family' realm of things...
You know Stuart had 2 kids - Kirsten & Calum who lived with us
permantently (when their mum walked out on Stuurt - she left both kids)
At first there was no stucture with mums visits or weekends away with
her, but we worked it out so that every 2nd weekend she took the kids
from friday night till Sunday night. I felt it was important for them
to have that contact with her - she was their mum after all.
We couldn't dictate to her tho that she couldn't see her kids if she
had a boyfriend. That was HER choice, and we had to abide by it.
<<If they last a year I'll consider allowing Charlotte to meet
her(again). I just don't want my daughter meeting a long line of women
.After all they've only been together for a couple of months. It is
early days isn't it?????? >>
To me, that sounds unfair. It's like you are punishing Joe via
Charlotte.
The 'long line of women' comment is untrue. How many times has Joe
suggested involving Charlotte with anyone???
Perhaps they have only been a true couple for a short time, but they
have known each other for years. Surely this skips forward the time
scale in 'new' partner terms?
Its not as if he just met her, doesn't know her well and suddenly wants
to introduce Lisa to Charlotte. She should know that they have been
acquaintances for years and plan to spend their lives together for many
years to come.
Please bite your tongue here Heather because I know what you are going
to say!! And yes, I can see why I suppose...
But it comes down to people DO, and CAN change.
I just think its a waste him missing on out on precious time with
Charlotte. After all, she is growing up so quickly! I was suprised how
big she is getting when I picked her up from the church with Joe a few
weeks ago. (He had been up to my mums house with me to take one of her
perfume bottles to disperese some ashes into, but his car was down at
Tesco car park.)
I didn't think it was so long since I seen her last - but she seemd to
be so much more 'grown up'!! Very pretty too!!
<<And as for discussing anything with him I'd rather talk to a tree.>>
Again, what can I say?!? Admittedly it did make me laugh - but
seriously, until the two of you can sit down and have a serious
discussion about Charolttes part in Joe's life - then you are going to
go round and round in circles till the end of time.
Regards, Denise.
Heather
her and tell her how long and what his involvement has been with Lisa
over the years. Hey I could even make it easier for Joe and tell her
when she wakes up.
"Hey sweetie that new girlfriend well he's been shagging her for years
and was shagging her when mummy was pregnant"
No that doesn't sound good does it. I think we'll leave it at new
girlfriend shall we?
I believe in being honest and open with my children. Sure Charlotte met
P. but how could that be avoided we live in the same house. When he
phoned she knew it was him and she would say oh is that pooh head
again?
Of course she's got her own name for Lisa too which I've said isn't
nice.
It's not like it was possible for me to have a secret love life.I 've
never had the option of my children going off with their fathers for
the weekend
Why didn't Joe want to introduce Karen to her. Hell that was something
that lasted over 5 years and was the woman he thought he was going to
marry.(no that would have involved me knowing about her)
What about Lorraine? He was nearly set to move to Canada.(ditto)
Here's my reason. I know about Lisa therefore Charlotte knows. Joe
knows that I'm not an option anymore. He's also run out of options and
his words he doesn't want to be alone. Therefore yes maybe they will
last and Charlotte will have to meet her. I've no doubt he does care
about Lisa but she's 2nd/3rd/4th/xth best at the end of the day.
hey Joe there are more days in the week than Sat and Sun and there have
always been school holidays.
He didn't have gigs every weekend. I know some of the stuff he did as
he told me.
To him me asking him to spend time with her indicated there was a
problem. I think the question " what is there a problem?" gave it a
way.
Yes I would sit down with him but knowing the bull shit that's going to
fall out of his mouth what's the point? Anyway I've tried having this
out with him over the years anyway. He's simply too selfish to make the
time.One of the reasons he cited for not spending time with her was
that he found it difficult to be around me. That isn't a problem
Charlotte finds his car quite easily.
Maybe now he'll know what it feels like to be left standing on a
doorstep.Did he tell you about that too?
Ok got to go.
Three beautiful ladies are about to make this house beautiful again.
( decorating after central heating being installed)
Lilith Bee
raynd...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
>
> Please bite your tongue here Heather because I know what you are going
> to say!! And yes, I can see why I suppose...
> But it comes down to people DO, and CAN change.
Yes, I agree they can and do change. But I also _believe_ that one
should wait to see the changes are for long term, and by _actions_- not
because one claims to have changed.
LB~
Her Benevolence, The BEAST
"Heather" < wrote in message
> Yes I would sit down with him but knowing the bull shit that's going to
> fall out of his mouth what's the point? Anyway I've tried having this
> out with him over the years anyway. He's simply too selfish to make the
> time.One of the reasons he cited for not spending time with her was
> that he found it difficult to be around me.
Heather, is it possible to have some sort of professional
mediator involved? I'm not sure what sort of 'Social Services'
program(s) might be available to you, there, but surely there's
SOMEthing?? A Family Counselor?
Charlotte being caught in the middle has been on my heart ever
since this whole blow-up on the newsgroups.
sighed
The BEAST
PearL
since this whole blow-up on the newsgroups.
sighed
The BEAST
-------------------------------
Ditto that Beastie.
Heather
asked. I talked to him by phone and suggested it as he was off.
In my opinion he bent the rules slightly. I made a request that his
"new girlfriend" not be there and well she wasn't but he didn't go back
to his house with Charlotte.
She had a good day and I'm trying to concentrate on that.
(just ignore the steam and the blue language)
Heather
mediator would be good but waiting lists for anything would mean we'd
be seen by the time Charlotte's left home!!!!!
PearL
Heather wrote:
> Good news he spent time with Charlotte
Aww well that's good. That's the most important thing... that she had a
good time. : )
Sarah Vaughan
> <<If they last a year I'll consider allowing Charlotte to meet
> her(again). I just don't want my daughter meeting a long line of women
> .After all they've only been together for a couple of months. It is
> early days isn't it?????? >>
>
> To me, that sounds unfair. It's like you are punishing Joe via
> Charlotte.
Why would it be punishing Joe for Charlotte not to be allowed to see Lisa?
wondered
Sarah
--
http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com
"That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell
Sarah Vaughan
Yes, I agree. I also think that people with long-term ingrained
problems are not going to change unless they first recognise that they
have a problem.
And when somebody is acting the same way as they always have, my
conclusion is that that person has *not* changed.
All the best,
Denise
<<Why would it be punishing Joe for Charlotte not to be allowed to see
Lisa? >>
I thought you were an educated woman Sarah... it seems easy enough to
follow...
It was suggested that Joe could only see Charlotte if Lisa was not
there. Well, thats not always a realistic option if they are in a close
relationship is it?
So Charlotte can't go back to Joes house if Lisa is there?
Joe will have to keep his home life seperate from his daughter? Not
always easy either.
THAT was the point I was making. I'm sure Heather understood what I
meant.
Denise
Denise
<<She had a good day and I'm trying to concentrate on that.>>
Sounds like some progress was made today. Which is good.
<<I've got to bite the bullet and talk to him.This can't go on. A
mediator would be good but waiting lists for anything would mean we'd
be seen by the time Charlotte's left home!!!!! >>
Can't Sarah advise on the options available through the GP's surgery?
But if waiting lists are big here in Dundee (which no doubt they will
be) perhaps citizens advice shop could offer alternatives?
Good luck.
Denise
Heather
house he took her out despite her having no coat and a cold.You know it
was me who talked to him and suggested he take Charlotte yesterday.
Until Joe says they are living together then Lisa doesn't have to be
there 24/7 and as for seperate lives he's done quite well for the past
13 years.
What I mean is he's kept his life private. I
I don't mean he's been father of the year and he'd be the 1st to admit
that.He's done everything he wanted to do at Charlotte's expense and
mine of course. He wasn't even able to help me when Charlotte didn't
sleep through the night. This went on for 3 solid years- no medical
reason.She had her full sleep quota but spread over 24hours.
Anyway I'm drifting.
Being in each others pockets to me doesn't seem healthly. Doesn't she
have friends to see or hobbies that she could be doing? Why doesn't she
visit you on a Sunday?
I've spoken to Charlotte she's not in a rush to meet Lisa, She found
her annoying.So don't my daughter's feelings count then?
It doesn't seem like a big problem to me. Depends on who he values more
Heather
be punishing him. I've come close as there are aspects of his behaviour
that have sickened me -The "man in motion" pictures, the cybersex, the
long list of women he's bedded, the veiled threats he's made about
posting a link to a webpage. (I'll forward that if you want),his
various excuses over the years why he couldn't spend time with
Charlotte, all pathetic.
I actually asked my solicitor if I could force him to see her more
often. Funny it works the other way around. If I was to say that's it
then he could in theory take me to court to see Charlotte.
Anyway spending time with Charlotte without Lisa around isn't a
problem. Like I said depends on who he values more
Sarah Vaughan
> <<I've got to bite the bullet and talk to him.This can't go on. A
> mediator would be good but waiting lists for anything would mean we'd
> be seen by the time Charlotte's left home!!!!! >>
>
> Can't Sarah advise on the options available through the GP's surgery?
Sweet FA, barring a miracle. You're better off looking in the phone
book or on the Internet. Or trying CAB, as Denise suggested.
Sarah Vaughan
> Sarah ' misconstrues eveything' wrote...
>
> <<Why would it be punishing Joe for Charlotte not to be allowed to see
> Lisa? >>
>
> I thought you were an educated woman Sarah... it seems easy enough to
> follow...
> It was suggested that Joe could only see Charlotte if Lisa was not
> there. Well, thats not always a realistic option if they are in a close
> relationship is it?
Difficult isn't the same as unrealistic.
> So Charlotte can't go back to Joes house if Lisa is there?
> Joe will have to keep his home life seperate from his daughter? Not
> always easy either.
From all accounts he appears to have managed it for her entire life
thus far.
Sarah Vaughan
> Denise wrote:
>> Sarah ' misconstrues eveything' wrote...
>>
>> <<Why would it be punishing Joe for Charlotte not to be allowed to see
>> Lisa? >>
>>
>> I thought you were an educated woman Sarah... it seems easy enough to
>> follow...
>> It was suggested that Joe could only see Charlotte if Lisa was not
>> there. Well, thats not always a realistic option if they are in a close
>> relationship is it?
>
> Difficult isn't the same as unrealistic.
>
>> So Charlotte can't go back to Joes house if Lisa is there?
>> Joe will have to keep his home life seperate from his daughter? Not
>> always easy either.
>
> From all accounts he appears to have managed it for her entire life
> thus far.
Sorry, I was getting snippy and forgetting to make the main point I
wanted to make.
What I object to is the idea that because something works out as being
difficult for Joe, it's automatically seen as a punishment for him.
It's so much like his own attitude - the way he expects everything to
revolve around him and assumes that if it doesn't, then this must mean
people are deliberately out to get him.
Lilith Bee
Sarah Vaughan wrote:
>
> From all accounts he appears to have managed it for her entire life
> thus far.
>
snippy or not Sarah, it still sounds to be true.
How sad for Charlotte.
LB~