To Joe Lamb, and the rest of the Castle
Sarah Vaughan
make this post. I make it now in the knowledge that a high proportion
of the people reading it may think it was the wrong thing to do, and
that I should have just stuck with my previous approach and kept quiet
about this. And probably *everyone* is going to be surprised that I
made it now, because it's going to seem completely out of the blue.
It's not. It just took an extremely long time to decide that saying
this was the right thing to do, that it's something I *have* to do.
Joe Lamb, three years ago I found out that you'd lied about me and
bad-mouthed me behind my back.
For those who haven't heard Joe's version of the story � which I'm
really hoping is most or all of you, but how can I know? - what Joe
tried to claim was that I'd gone all 'Fatal Attraction' on him. Well,
not to the extent that any rabbits he owned would have been in any
physical danger. But what he's told people is that, when I visited him
back in 1999, I threw myself at him, then started assuming we were in a
romantic relationship and being really hard to convince otherwise, and
that I'm now a Woman Scorned and that my wounded pride at this rejection
is the real reason why I've had the temerity to criticise Joe about
other unrelated things in the past.
None of that is true. Short version of the actual story: He made a few
passes at me, we had a brief discussion of the matter which clarified
that neither of us wanted a relationship but that we were both up for
what I shall euphemistically refer to as a quick fling, we enjoyed a few
days together on the clear understanding that this was *not* meant to be
the start of any kind of ongoing romance, we parted company, and we got
on with our lives. I didn't want otherwise, I didn't expect otherwise,
and I most certainly did *not* throw myself at him or act as though we
had started anything other than a friendship.
(I did, however, believe that we had started a friendship. Joe assured
me warmly that this was indeed the case. Looks like events � and I'm
not even referring just to the fact that he lied about me, though that
really was, well, whatever the reverse of the icing on the cake would be
� have resoundingly taught me otherwise. Joe has not been a friend to
me, and has talked about me elsewhere in a way that has made it pretty
clear that he never thought of me as one.)
If anyone *has* heard anything different on the subject from what I've
just told you above, please let me know. If you're wondering whom to
believe, I'm more than happy for anyone to ask me questions about any
discrepancies between my version and whatever you've heard to the contrary.
So. I found out that Joe had lied about me. The conversation in
question was, as it happened, via IM and was saved, and the other person
in the conversation was kind enough to send me a copy to read for myself
when it emerged that there might be some differences between Joe's
version and the truth, so I've read exactly what he said and there is no
possibility of a mistake.
All this, of course, was in one way quite a shock to find out. Joe, I'd
hardly had the highest opinion in the world of you after knowing you for
six years on here; nor was it news to me by that stage that we did not,
whatever you might once have told me to the contrary, have a friendship
worth speaking of. But I'd always thought that your dislikeable
qualities were due to thoughtlessness and self-centeredness on your part
rather than active malice. Whatever else I'd seen you do, I really
hadn't expected you to be the kind of person who'd blatantly lie about
someone.
But I was much more amused than upset when I first found out. I mean,
the story you'd told was just so petty, so pathetic, so obviously
self-serving... I was too busy laughing at the lengths you'd go to to
boost your own ego to get too bothered about it at the time. So it
didn't bother me too much, at first, that I couldn't talk about this on
the Castle.
Which I couldn't. Coming out with sudden accusations against a popular
member of a group is potentially awkward at the best of times, but what
really made it problematic was that I found this out right after Joe's
father died. I just couldn't see any way that I could bring up any
criticisms of him, no matter how justified, without looking like a
complete bitch myself. As unfair as that was when I wasn't the one
who'd done anything wrong, I was realistic enough to know that that was
most likely the way it would be. For that, and for other reasons, I
decided it was better to let the whole thing go. So I said nothing.
And I haven't felt easy on the Castle since then. Once, it had been a
place where I knew I was among friends, where I could talk about
anything that was on my mind if I so chose and know I'd find a listening
ear, where I could relax and feel comfortable. Now, it was a place
where I had to keep quiet about something as huge as having someone
pretend to be a friend and then lie about me behind my back. It was a
place where I couldn't see one of the main denizens without remembering
just how empty all his words about the importance of friendship and love
had really been, without knowing how two-faced he'd turned out to be.
That knowledge poisoned the Castle for me.
And, worst of all, it was the place where I no longer knew just who'd
been told what about me. It took a long time for that particular
implication of the whole mess to sink in. I knew, obviously, that he'd
told one person � the one who passed the story on to me in the first
place � and I told the person in question what had actually happened.
It took months before I realised the obvious � that, if he'd told that
one person, he could have told others. I have absolutely no way of
knowing who else has heard this garbage. No way of knowing who else has
been left thinking I'm the kind of silly bint who'd throw myself at
someone even when it was clearly inappropriate to do so, then refuse to
take �no� for an answer. If even one other person has been left
thinking that, then I damn well want the chance to tell them what really
happened.
So that's what I'm going to do. Maybe other people will still think
it's the wrong thing to do, that I was right in the first place and
should just let it go. But I now know, finally, that that was the wrong
decision. This is the Castle, the place where we can talk, freely and
uncensored, about what bothers us, even if it isn't to the liking of
everyone else. Knowing that I've been lied about bothers me, and I'm
going to tell people the true story. I'm not even under any illusion
that most people will even care about it particularly � this story is
now ten years old and was hardly that big a deal to anyone else even at
the time. But anyone who does care, or who has heard the other version,
can at least now have the truth alongside the lies.
So, now, I have a request.
Joe Lamb, you�ve had a few things to say about me in private and behind
my back. Now I�d like to see whether you�ve got the cojones to say
those same things publically and to my face. You�ve told a few people
this bogus story about me. Stand up and tell it to everyone, here and
now. You�ve made it pretty clear that you didn�t have much respect for
me during the times you were pretending to be my friend. Stand up and
express those same opinions publically, here and now. And I�ll tell
people the real story, as closely as I can remember it. You can pull me
up on anything you like in my account of events � any points you think
don�t add up, any points you want to disagree with. I�ll do the same
with your story. Anyone who�s interested can decide for themselves what
they believe.
Your word against mine, Joe. I�m not even na�ve enough to think that
mine will be the one everyone will automatically believe. I�d just
rather have your word against mine than your unchallenged word behind my
back. If that's the choice I'm stuck with � and it looks like it is �
then I'm choosing to speak out.
Bring it, Joe. Say your piece, and tell the world.
Sarah
--
http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com
"That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell
Covenant
Move along....
Sarah Vaughan
> Move along....
No, I suspected you wouldn't be too keen on telling your version publicly.
In any case, here's the story as closely as I can remember it. Joe can
decide for himself whether or not he wants to give his side of it.
Ten years ago, just before the Castle was founded, I started posting on
the absk newsgroup and first encountered Joe. We were among a small
minority of British posters, so we discussed, in passing, the
possibility of someday meeting up. When Joe made a wistful comment on
another thread about the unlikelihood of him ever getting to meet any
other abskers, I told him he�d get to meet at least one, since I�d
decided I was definitely going to meet him some day. I hadn�t actually
meant that as more than a comment that I was bound to be visiting
Scotland at some vague and indefinable date in the future and would look
him up then, and was a bit surprised when he promptly invited me to stay
with him. Still, I liked the idea, and took him up on the offer, and we
arranged a date for a couple of months thence. Just as we got that
sorted out, Joe e-mailed me to say that his fianc�e in Canada had split
up with him.
Damn, I thought; the poor man. I e-mailed him back promptly with
general sympathy and offer of a listening ear and shoulder to cry on
(and, no, no other body parts were offered). He IMed me for a chat to
take his mind off things, and, since he seemed to appreciate that, we
exchanged phone numbers and I rang him. After that, this became a
regular thing � we�d chat a few times a week by IM or phone. He let me
know that he was glad of the support. For my part, I was very pleased
to think I was making a new friend.
Although I hadn�t expected to be making anything *more* than a new
friend out of this, Joe was quite noticeably flirting with me both in
these conversations and on the Castle. (I remember Kestral joking about
getting me the URL to Chastity Belts �R� Us.) I didn�t take this too
seriously, because I thought (correctly) that this was probably just the
way he usually talked to women; but it was happening enough that I did
give some thought to what I�d do if it turned out that he *did* want
something more than just friendship. It's fair to say that I found it a
tempting thought � I liked him and we seemed to get on well � but it
still wasn't hard for me to decide that it was a no-no. I wasn't about
to get involved with someone who was so clearly on the rebound. Not to
mention the small matter of us living four hundred miles apart - I�d had
a couple of long-distance relationships in the past, and wasn�t in a
hurry to start another one. The flirting was fine by me, but I didn't
plan to get into anything serious.
Through all this, we finalised the details for my planned visit that
June. We arranged that I'd stay for a long weekend, Thursday to Monday.
I still remember how excited I was � bubbling over with happiness,
looking forward to the chance to get to meet a Castle denizen in real
life. The day finally arrived, and so did I, and I had a great time
talking to Joe in person at last. And, the next day, he started making
passes at me.
I wasn�t quite sure how to take this or what to do about it. For one
thing, if I was misreading the signals (admittedly a possibility that
was becoming increasingly less likely) then it could be even more
embarrassing than such situations usually are � after all, the man was
getting over a broken heart, I was trying to be a supportive friend
here, and jumping his bones if that was not in fact what he was after
could be just a tad insensitive. The other issue, of course, was what I
should do about it if Joe *did* want to start anything up. I didn't
want to hurt the feelings of someone still broken-hearted. And, of
course, as I've said, the prospect of starting something was a tempting
one in some ways. But I knew even more clearly, now that I was there,
that I didn't want to start anything in-depth here. This was partly for
the reasons I'd already considered, and partly because that just wasn't
the way I felt about him. He wasn't someone about whom I could see
myself getting serious.
Bedtime came. We headed off to our separate bedrooms (his and the spare
room, respectively), stopping in the hall to exchange goodnights. We
exchanged one of those Significant Looks � you know the ones. We fell
into each other�s arms and started kissing passionately. (That, by the
way, is as salacious as this account gets. If you�re only reading for
the juicy details, you�ve now had �em, or as much of them as you�re
getting.) As enjoyable as all this was and as much of a shame as it
seemed to stop it, I'm the head-rule-the-heart kind, and I didn't lose
track of all the reasons not to take it further. I pulled away from him
and asked him if this was really a good idea.
�Why wouldn�t it be a good idea?� he asked me.
I started on the list of reasons, and he stopped me half way. No, he
told me, he certainly didn�t want a serious relationship. Sex was all
part of friendship for him, all part of having fun with someone and
getting to know them better. He�d slept with most of his female friends
on the same no-strings-attached basis. If I was up for the same, that
was fine. If I wasn�t, that was also fine. The offer was there.
Either way, this was just going to be a friendship, nothing more.
I was surprised � I�d never previously met anyone with quite that
attitude towards sex and friendship � intrigued, and delighted. This
was the perfect solution to the dilemma. Temporary fun, continued
friendship, and none of the thorniness of a romance. Yes, I assured
him. I was up for the same.
We had two and a half days left of my stay, and we made the most of it.
Monday arrived. I went home, smiling over some pleasant memories. We
didn't talk about it openly on the Castle, but we threw a few
double-entendres back and forth (check out an old thread called �Castle
Haiku (??V??)� ). We both got on with our lives.
I tried to stay in touch � the whole point had been, supposedly, that we
were good friends � but something had changed. Joe had stopped the
phone calls, the IMs, the e-mails. Not just cut down on them, which I
would have expected � he got back together with a different
ex-girlfriend shortly after I'd visited, and presumably was going to
have a lot less of the famous Time On His Hands � but stopped
altogether. I went on phoning him from time to time, but he sounded
distant and detached in a way he hadn't before. He didn't even tell me
about his new romance, when I phoned � I read about it later on the
Castle. The whole vibe between us was completely, and quite abruptly,
different. I really didn't want to jump to conclusions, but it seemed
pretty inescapable here that either meeting up had put him off me as a
person and he was too polite to say so, or he'd just been using me all
along. I wasn't sure which prospect I found the hardest to take.
When I finally, several months down the line, summoned up the courage to
ask him about it, he told me that he stopped getting in touch because he
just didn't need to any more. Believe it or not, he managed to make
that sound a lot less brutal when he said it � as though he did
recognise that that might not have been the nicest of ways to treat
someone, now that I'd pointed it out, and did genuinely regret it � and
I was actually relieved. At least he'd only used me out of
thoughtlessness, not as a calculated thing. In spite of acting like a
complete pillock sometimes, he was basically still a nice guy at heart.
I would go on believing that for another five years.
(Of course, the way I spoke to him did change somewhat after that � it
wasn't something I wanted to get too bitter or angry about, but, hell,
I'd been hurt badly by having this supposed friendship dropped like that
after everything that had been said, and I'm only human. Years later,
Joe would use this against me, claiming my critical tone towards him on
the Castle was only because of my thwarted attempts to start a romance
with him.)
Then, in 2005, I was exchanging some e-mails about something else with a
friend of a Castle-ite whom I shall refer to as X for the sake of
anonymity, and the friend mentioned something about me having had a
�thing� with Joe. I clarified the actual situation in my reply. Oh,
said X's friend - Joe implied to X you wanted something more.
Ay-oop, I thought, that�s a bit worrying. I knew I�d clarified at the
time that I didn�t want to start anything in the romantic line and that
he didn�t either, and that it was only on that basis that we ever slept
together at all, but� well, what was all this now? Had I somehow given
off the wrong signals and made it look as though I *was* crazy about him
and *did* want more? That could be embarrassing. Somewhat concerned, I
e-mailed X and asked tentatively for more details. X kindly forwarded a
copy of the IM conversation in question.
Which was how I discovered that Joe had told X (and who knows who else?)
that I had
a) practically invited myself to stay,
b) told him, in a conversation that he reported in detail, that he
didn�t need to make up the spare room bed for me as neither I nor he
would be sleeping in it,
c) thrown myself at him and dragged him to bed,
d) afterwards, started taking it for granted that we were now in A
Relationship and talking about which of us would move house in order to
continue this and about how his daughter would take it, thus causing Joe
considerable embarrassment as he tried to explain otherwise.
No, no, no, and no, respectively.
I do not simply invite myself to stay at other people�s houses (a minor
point in comparison with the others, but I thought I�d clarify it since
it came up). I do not throw myself at people whom I know to be nursing
a broken heart. I do not drag people to bed who aren�t willing to go.
And I most definitely do *not* start assuming I am in a relationship
with someone unless that person has let me know that they also feel that
such is the case, or presume that I have enough of a role in the life of
someone I've just met to be introduced to their child. God knows I�ve
got my flaws in the field of interpersonal relationships, but I am *not*
that arrogant, that thoughtless, that stupid, or that crass. And I find
it damned offensive to be painted that way.
Joe Lamb, you lied about me, blatantly and nastily. You did it after
I'd done what I could to help you and be a friend to you through a
couple of really rough patches, and you did it after telling the Castle
repeatedly how important you found the friendships on here. I'm not
surprised you don't want to talk about it publicly.
Sarah Vaughan
[...]
> Then, in 2005, I was exchanging some e-mails about something else with a
> friend of a Castle-ite
Sorry, I miscounted - it was *2006* that this happened and that I found
out Joe had been lying. 2005 was when the IM conversation between Joe
and the other Castle-ite took place.
All the best,
Tracy
<covenantWITHNOSPAMPLE...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Move along....
That was a cold, callous, dismissive and childish remark, Joe.
Heather
> Covenant wrote:
> > Move along....
>
> No, I suspected you wouldn't be too keen on telling your version publicly.
>
> In any case, here's the story as closely as I can remember it. Joe can
> decide for himself whether or not he wants to give his side of it.
>
> Ten years ago, just before the Castle was founded, I started posting on
> the absk newsgroup and first encountered Joe. We were among a small
> minority of British posters, so we discussed, in passing, the
> possibility of someday meeting up. When Joe made a wistful comment on
> another thread about the unlikelihood of him ever getting to meet any
> decided I was definitely going to meet him some day. I hadn’t actually
> meant that as more than a comment that I was bound to be visiting
> Scotland at some vague and indefinable date in the future and would look
> him up then, and was a bit surprised when he promptly invited me to stay
> with him. Still, I liked the idea, and took him up on the offer, and we
> arranged a date for a couple of months thence. Just as we got that
> up with him.
>
> Damn, I thought; the poor man. I e-mailed him back promptly with
> general sympathy and offer of a listening ear and shoulder to cry on
> (and, no, no other body parts were offered). He IMed me for a chat to
> take his mind off things, and, since he seemed to appreciate that, we
> exchanged phone numbers and I rang him. After that, this became a
> know that he was glad of the support. For my part, I was very pleased
> to think I was making a new friend.
>
> friend out of this, Joe was quite noticeably flirting with me both in
> these conversations and on the Castle. (I remember Kestral joking about
> seriously, because I thought (correctly) that this was probably just the
> way he usually talked to women; but it was happening enough that I did
> something more than just friendship. It's fair to say that I found it a
> still wasn't hard for me to decide that it was a no-no. I wasn't about
> to get involved with someone who was so clearly on the rebound. Not to
> a couple of long-distance relationships in the past, and wasn’t in a
> hurry to start another one. The flirting was fine by me, but I didn't
> plan to get into anything serious.
>
> Through all this, we finalised the details for my planned visit that
> June. We arranged that I'd stay for a long weekend, Thursday to Monday.
> looking forward to the chance to get to meet a Castle denizen in real
> life. The day finally arrived, and so did I, and I had a great time
> talking to Joe in person at last. And, the next day, he started making
> passes at me.
>
> thing, if I was misreading the signals (admittedly a possibility that
> was becoming increasingly less likely) then it could be even more
> getting over a broken heart, I was trying to be a supportive friend
> here, and jumping his bones if that was not in fact what he was after
> could be just a tad insensitive. The other issue, of course, was what I
> should do about it if Joe *did* want to start anything up. I didn't
> want to hurt the feelings of someone still broken-hearted. And, of
> course, as I've said, the prospect of starting something was a tempting
> one in some ways. But I knew even more clearly, now that I was there,
> that I didn't want to start anything in-depth here. This was partly for
> the reasons I'd already considered, and partly because that just wasn't
> the way I felt about him. He wasn't someone about whom I could see
> myself getting serious.
>
> Bedtime came. We headed off to our separate bedrooms (his and the spare
> room, respectively), stopping in the hall to exchange goodnights. We
> into each other’s arms and started kissing passionately. (That, by the
> way, is as salacious as this account gets. If you’re only reading for
> the juicy details, you’ve now had ’em, or as much of them as you’re
> getting.) As enjoyable as all this was and as much of a shame as it
> seemed to stop it, I'm the head-rule-the-heart kind, and I didn't lose
> track of all the reasons not to take it further. I pulled away from him
> and asked him if this was really a good idea.
>
>
> I started on the list of reasons, and he stopped me half way. No, he
> part of friendship for him, all part of having fun with someone and
> on the same no-strings-attached basis. If I was up for the same, that
> Either way, this was just going to be a friendship, nothing more.
>
> attitude towards sex and friendship – intrigued, and delighted. This
> was the perfect solution to the dilemma. Temporary fun, continued
> friendship, and none of the thorniness of a romance. Yes, I assured
> him. I was up for the same.
>
> We had two and a half days left of my stay, and we made the most of it.
>
> Monday arrived. I went home, smiling over some pleasant memories. We
> didn't talk about it openly on the Castle, but we threw a few
> Haiku (??V??)” ). We both got on with our lives.
>
> I tried to stay in touch – the whole point had been, supposedly, that we
> were good friends – but something had changed. Joe had stopped the
> phone calls, the IMs, the e-mails. Not just cut down on them, which I
> ex-girlfriend shortly after I'd visited, and presumably was going to
> altogether. I went on phoning him from time to time, but he sounded
> distant and detached in a way he hadn't before. He didn't even tell me
> Castle. The whole vibe between us was completely, and quite abruptly,
> different. I really didn't want to jump to conclusions, but it seemed
> pretty inescapable here that either meeting up had put him off me as a
> person and he was too polite to say so, or he'd just been using me all
> along. I wasn't sure which prospect I found the hardest to take.
>
> When I finally, several months down the line, summoned up the courage to
> ask him about it, he told me that he stopped getting in touch because he
> just didn't need to any more. Believe it or not, he managed to make
> recognise that that might not have been the nicest of ways to treat
> I was actually relieved. At least he'd only used me out of
> thoughtlessness, not as a calculated thing. In spite of acting like a
> complete pillock sometimes, he was basically still a nice guy at heart.
> I would go on believing that for another five years.
>
> wasn't something I wanted to get too bitter or angry about, but, hell,
> I'd been hurt badly by having this supposed friendship dropped like that
> after everything that had been said, and I'm only human. Years later,
> Joe would use this against me, claiming my critical tone towards him on
> the Castle was only because of my thwarted attempts to start a romance
> with him.)
>
> Then, in 2005, I was exchanging some e-mails about something else with a
> friend of a Castle-ite whom I shall refer to as X for the sake of
> anonymity, and the friend mentioned something about me having had a
> said X's friend - Joe implied to X you wanted something more.
>
> time that I didn’t want to start anything in the romantic line and that
> he didn’t either, and that it was only on that basis that we ever slept
> together at all, but… well, what was all this now? Had I somehow given
> off the wrong signals and made it look as though I *was* crazy about him
> and *did* want more? That could be embarrassing. Somewhat concerned, I
> e-mailed X and asked tentatively for more details. X kindly forwarded a
> copy of the IM conversation in question.
>
> Which was how I discovered that Joe had told X (and who knows who else?)
> that I had
>
> a) practically invited myself to stay,
> b) told him, in a conversation that he reported in detail, that he
> would be sleeping in it,
> c) thrown myself at him and dragged him to bed,
> d) afterwards, started taking it for granted that we were now in A
> Relationship and talking about which of us would move house in order to
> continue this and about how his daughter would take it, thus causing Joe
> considerable embarrassment as he tried to explain otherwise.
>
> No, no, no, and no, respectively.
>
> point in comparison with the others, but I thought I’d clarify it ...
>
> read more »
Just to clarify in my post this is what i meant by "the above".
Sarah Vaughan
> On Jun 29, 10:02 pm, "Covenant"
> <covenantWITHNOSPAMPLE...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> Move along....
>
>
> I came to some conclusions myself a few weeks ago about YOU (and I
> also learnt a long time ago that it is simply futile to attempt a
> communication with you when there's a need to bring you up on bad
> behaviour - you simply refuse to face facts about yourself).
>
> Anyway, the last incident (how I was treated) prompted me to block you
> on my Live Messenger, remove you from my Facebook and have deleted you
> on my mobile phone. I'm sure you have NO IDEA what I'm talking about
> but, again, there will be no point in discussing it with you as you
> refuse to face facts about yourself.
>
> Ive tried to remain supportive etc etc as far as Joe goes but yeah,
> sometimes you just have to face the fact that you do not have a true
> friend, simply a.... well, Im trying to think of a word or ten here!
>
> Sarah, I apologise for dragging myself into a very distressing and
> pathetic spat with you and Pearl 3 years ago - I was kidding myself,
> as you all knew very well. I did get myself in a tizz with Joe but
> then I was also facing facts that my then partner and I were about to
> split up and I had romantic notions due to being in a particularly
> vulnerable place at that time. (Dont get me wrong, Joe - I knew
> EXACTLY what I was doing - Im not blaming you for any manipulative
> behaviour at my most vulnerable time, so dont get *that* notion in
> your head!).
>
> How ironic that I should have been invited, by Joe, to the Castle all
> those years ago with a simple question - Do you love?
>
> Well, some of us know how to!
Tracy, I really appreciate this post. Thank you. I'm happy for you to
e-mail me if you want to talk.
All the best,
Sarah V.
‘…’ title is easily missed on Google Groups, and could be mistaken for
yet another spam – I suspect that’s what Joe had in mind when changing
the title, and that he’s hoping that Castle denizens glancing in for a
quick visit will miss it. Nice try if so, Joe, but, under the
circumstances, I want as many denizens as possible to know what
happened; and so the title is being changed back again.
On Jul 3, 11:04 am, Tracy <aliensmos...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> On Jul 3, 6:50 am, Sarah Vaughan <nanny...@samael.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > Tracy, I really appreciate this post. Thank you. I'm happy for you to
> > e-mail me if you want to talk.
> I've emailed you again Sarah - with a more detailed explanation for
> my anger at Joe.
Again, I really appreciate it, and won't discuss any details on here.
I'll reply to it from home some time this weekend, hopefully, children
permitting!
> In the open, I will say I did originally post a much more *emotive*
> response, directed at him but deleted it again.
I saw you’d deleted it, but only after I’d already replied to it
quoting your post. If you like, I can try to delete mine, as it
didn’t say anything much (but can’t do that until tonight as at work
at the moment).
> Joe anger me recently - he did his usual cocky dismissive attitude and
> I decided I'd had enough. It's all very one-sided with Joe and I've
> been a fool to ever believe we had a *friendship*.
>
> Anyway, he doesnt have a clue what Im on about because Joe never faces
> facts about his own bad behaviour but he will be delighted to know
> that I have blocked him from my Live Messenger, deleted off my
> Facebook and deleted off my phone.
Wise move ;-)
> How ironic that my initial invitation to the Castle, by Joe, all those
> years ago was with a question: Do you love?
>
> Some of us know how to... others dont.
Oh, I think Joe loves all right – he just never explained to us that
the question he was *really* answering ‘Yes’ to was “Do you love
*yourself*?”
Thanks again, Tracy.
All the best,
Sarah
Covenant
???
Yeah?
What did I do *this* time I wonder??
Sarah Vaughan
Sad thing is, even that *doesn't* say it all. I'd kept quiet about the
coldness, the callousness, the dismissiveness, the childishness. But
the two-facedness and, most of all, the lying were too much, and I spoke
out.
Still, I do see your point. Responding to the things I said about him
with that kind of dismissiveness... it's not normal behaviour. And it
does say a great deal about how he *really* feels about the whole 'Do
You Love?' and 'how wonderful the friendship on the Castle is' line that
he's been handing us all along.
All the best,
Covenant
"Sarah Vaughan" <nann...@samael.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:76Z4m.77330$Eq6....@newsfe24.ams2...
> Tracy wrote:
>> On Jul 3, 1:44 am, Tracy <aliensmos...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Jun 29, 10:02 pm, "Covenant"
>>>
>>> <covenantWITHNOSPAMPLE...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Move along....
>>> That was a cold, callous, dismissive and childish remark, Joe.
That was a *Oh FFS NOW what* remark.
> Sad thing is, even that *doesn't* say it all. I'd kept quiet about the
> coldness, the callousness, the dismissiveness, the childishness. But the
> two-facedness and, most of all, the lying were too much, and I spoke out.
OKay.. seeing as how we are getting *last words* in here...
Here are mine.
YOU are the liar Sarah.
Plain and simple.
Everything I said regarding the way you acted when you came here and the way
you acted afterwards was true.
(Look at the pics taken when you came here, the one at the castle Ranparts)
you are holding onto me as if life depended on it, I am standing up and
making minimal contact (in fact, IIRC, I am even ltrying to lean away from
you... pictures paint a thousand words, eh?)
Why?? Cos you were FULL ON!!! as soon as you arrived.
YOU suggested we share my bed after I had told you I was gonna be on the
setee.
YOU are the one who made any reference to sexual acts.
I did NOT *come onto you* in any way until you took me in your hand and said
"So do you like blowjobs then!?"
And then you were the one calling me teling me you were thinking of moving
to Scotland....
And making me feel like a grade A bustard when I asked why, and you said
because you thought 'WE' were "going somewhere".
(I told you "I didn't need you anymore???" Hmm.. there's a new one. Still a
lie though.)
I know she isn;t here anymore.. BUt when a certain other someone came to
Scotland and I met up with her, she told me you guys had met. I asked her
what she thought of you, she was 'nice' about it. And I told them I thought
you were "A bit too much.. a bit intense".. That was ALL I said... And this
was when you and I were still talking... long before I suddenly became this
apparent "lover and heartbreaker of women" that I must obviously be for this
furore...
But if they are ever around again, you can ask them about that... Its at
least a shred of proof that this is not just something I made up off the top
of my head.
Anyway... The fact that you have felt it neccesary to raise this AGAIN ,
after years have passed, in a public forum, trying to explain that you
DIDN'T do this, is all the proof ever required.
Why did I respond with "Move Along" ? Cos its both something you need to do,
and something anyone else readin it needs to do.
Me? I'm afraid I *didn;t* read it. I got the first paragraph and felt it
uneccessary.
(Now no doubt some may say I should have repected you enough to read it..
Well.. I personally feel I have had no respect at all in the last year or
six from some people... Some may say I do not deserve it.. BUt some are also
lying through their teeth to gain ANY kind of sympathy and 'an ear' for
their own dillusions. (Hi Hev!)
Tracy... This is now the THIRD time you've *broken all contact* with me with
no actual reasoning or explanation other than vapid half answers alluding to
some imagined slight... (THIS one is even better!) I never thought I'd say
this,. but I think its best you make this third time a permenant one.
Yet again, the neccesity you feel to bring this up in here rather than
actually, you know... ASK me if anything is wrong, speaks volumes. And the
fact that you, "a very caring and loving person", is finding happiness in my
curerent medical condition? Good luck to ya.
(And Heather.. "just dropped in", yeah? <sigh> one more lie...
Let's not get started on your unbelievable hypocrisy in your situation with
your married boyfriend and how you two came to be a *couple*.)
And thats it.
Respond all you like. (Well.. you WON'T cos you've all apparently said your
last), but you WILL be wasting your time because I won't be reading them.
Like I said, these are my last words on this matter in a public forum.
Buh-bye!
--
Covenant
A Man, Still, With Far Too Much Time On His Hands
Sarah Vaughan
Thank you. Joe. Now, I wonder if you could just comment on the
inconsistencies:
Covenant wrote:
[...]
> YOU suggested we share my bed after I had told you I was gonna be on the
> setee.
Why would you have been planning to be on the settee when you had a
spare room for me to stay in?
> YOU are the one who made any reference to sexual acts.
> I did NOT *come onto you* in any way until you took me in your hand and said
> "So do you like blowjobs then!?"
Prior to my visit, as I said before, you flirted enough with me that
another Castle denizen joked about getting me the URL to Chastity Belts
'R' Us. You're now claiming not to have made any sexual references or
come on to me at all, and in the IM I'm discussing and in an e-mail to
another person (not on the Castle), you claimed that when I showed
sexual interest it came as a complete surprise to you. Would you care
to comment on the discrepancy there?
> And then you were the one calling me teling me you were thinking of moving
> to Scotland....
> And making me feel like a grade A bustard when I asked why, and you said
> because you thought 'WE' were "going somewhere".
So, according to you, you'd been through this hideously embarrassing
experience; an experience after which anyone's reaction would be to
avoid further contact with the person concerned as much as possible and
to try as hard as possible to avoid giving them any hint of anything
that might be taken as encouragement. That being the case, perhaps you
could explain why you
a) told the Castle, in your report of the Meet, that if I visited again
you certainly wouldn't turn me away, and joked about how it must have
been a struggle for me to keep my hands off you when you were changing
before your gig that weekend ('The Castle Is Taken' post, on
alt.castlenet, June 1999),
b) acceded to my request to borrow your spare room again when I came up
to Scotland that summer for another meet (' �Star Trek� is not science
fiction' thread, absk, July 1999 - it's a long thread, but my post is
no. 187 and yours is 188.),
c) cheerfully traded fairly explicit double-entendres with me about the
fact that we'd slept together, even joking about me being 'pretty good'
at sex 'allegedly' ('Castle Haiku ??V??' thread, alt.castlenet, July 1999).
Of course, all of that is completely normal behaviour given that our
encounter was a mutually consensual one that you didn't � at least at
the time - regret and that you trusted me to treat in the light-hearted
spirit in which it had been intended. But it would all be a very odd
way to act if you had, as you claim, just had an excruciatingly
embarrassing and difficult time getting it through my head that you
weren't interested in me when I was determined not to believe that.
> (I told you "I didn't need you anymore???"
No, you told me that you didn't need to get in touch any more. (I can't
swear to the exact wording as this was a spoken conversation over nine
years ago, but that was about it. I think that if you'd said anything
as harsh as that you didn't need *me* any more, even I would have had
second thoughts about whether this supposed friendship of ours had ever
actually existed.)
> I know she isn;t here anymore.. BUt when a certain other someone came to
> Scotland and I met up with her, she told me you guys had met. I asked her
> what she thought of you, she was 'nice' about it. And I told them I thought
> you were "A bit too much.. a bit intense"..
I'm not sure whether you mean Kendra or Kathryn, but that one probably
is a fair comment. Looking back, I can see that, at the time, I was
very immature in some ways, I really didn't know much about how to chat
or banter with other people, and I took a lot of things much too
seriously. I think I very likely did come across as too intense at
times. However, being intense is not the same thing as being devoid of
all vestiges of sensitivity or understanding of appropriate behaviour,
which is what would have been required for me to act in the way you
claim I acted.
[...]
> Anyway... The fact that you have felt it neccesary to raise this AGAIN ,
> after years have passed, in a public forum, trying to explain that you
> DIDN'T do this, is all the proof ever required.
Why? How would you expect someone to react if they *had* been lied about
in such a way?
> Why did I respond with "Move Along" ? Cos its both something you need to do,
> and something anyone else readin it needs to do.
I think you're confusing moving along with letting appalling treatment
go unchecked. For years, I've lived with the constant nagging worry
that people I care about might hear a story that casts me in a terrible
light. I do indeed want and need to move on from that, and that's
precisely why I'm making it as hard as possible for you to spread these
stories (or, for that matter, similar stories about anyone else) among
Castle denizens in future.
> Me? I'm afraid I *didn;t* read it. I got the first paragraph and felt it
> uneccessary.
That would be fairly odd behaviour if you actually were the innocent
victim of an obsessed woman lying about you (of course, since you're
not, but on the contrary have every reason to want to avoid this whole
subject in public, it makes sense). If I saw that a respected and
longstanding member of a group that meant a great deal to me had
suddenly posted public allegations that I'd treated them that way, I
can't imagine *not* wanting to read what was being said. Whether or not
I myself respected the person who'd made the post would be irrelevant;
my concern would be that other people on the group, people whose opinion
I *did* care about, would read and believe the allegations. I would
want, at the very least, to know what was being said about me so that I
could decide whether or not I wanted to counter it. I can possibly
imagine someone not guilty of the accusations deciding not to respond to
such a post, but I would find it very unlikely that they would decide
not to read it at all.
> Well.. I personally feel I have had no respect at all in the last year or
> six from some people...
As one of those people, I can confirm to you that your personal feeling
in this case is absolutely correct. I do not respect you at all. I
didn't respect you all that much by 2006 in any case, after several
years of seeing how you behaved on the Castle; but I always put it down
to thoughtlessness from a basically well-meaning person and made
excuses, even defending you on here a few times. But then I found out
that you lied and that you were deliberately vicious to other people,
and those are the two things that I absolutely won't forgive or excuse.
I believe in trying to see the best in people, and for years I
struggled to think the best of you against considerable odds. But
you've blown all shreds of respect I ever had for you completely away.
[...]
> Respond all you like. (Well.. you WON'T cos you've all apparently said your
> last),
I think you're confusing Tracey's comments with mine. I made it clear
at the start that I intended to respond to what you said.
> but you WILL be wasting your time because I won't be reading them.
Whether or not that's the case, this won't be a waste of time. The two
things I most wanted to do all along were to tell my story and to point
out the holes in yours. I've already done the first; this post gave me
the chance to do the second.