Sci-fi bleg
Daniel Glick
group)! I had an odd thought today, and since I know some some pubbers
have read (not to mention written) a great deal of sci-fi, I was
wondering if you could help me out.
Basically, I was thinking about what could make anarchy work. If there
were some personally ownable technology that provided airtight (or close
enough) defense, without having any offensive capability, that would
seem to do the trick. Individuals would no longer rely on the government
for self-defense and the government would lack the ability to use force
to enforce laws or collect taxes.
Yes, I realize that is ridiculously unrealistic, but that's kind of the
point. I'm just curious--considering how many libertarians there are
among sci-fi authors--if any sci-fi book or story has been written along
those lines.
P.S. Yes, I realize that posting something on Usenet does not constitute
a 'bleg'. I originally posted this on my blog, but the friends who read
my blog (that I know of) aren't particularly into sci-fi, so I thought
I'd ask here.
--
My e-mail is dan, not news http://www.danielglick.com
"No self-respecting liberal should want everyone to be a liberal."
-- Don Herzog
Kimberly Chapman
dn...@comcast.com>:
>Basically, I was thinking about what could make anarchy work. If there
>were some personally ownable technology that provided airtight (or close
>enough) defense, without having any offensive capability, that would
>seem to do the trick. Individuals would no longer rely on the government
>for self-defense and the government would lack the ability to use force
>to enforce laws or collect taxes.
Such a device could conceivably take the place of cops, but if it's true
anarchy, who puts out the fires? Corporations? Who maintains the roads?
What if the people who provide these essential services decide, say, that
they don't like a certain segment of the population?
Even if it's individual - say I own the road in front of my house and put a
toll on it to maintain it - what if I decide I hate redheads so much that
no redhead can ever drive on my road? And what if me neighbours start to
agree? Where then do the redheads turn when they need to drive?
It's a silly example, but Corran and I find it's a simplistic reason to
demonstrate why governments are necessary. Every community needs some kind
of structure to maintain civility and order. The bigger a society, the
more complex the rules and enforcements have to be in order to cover the
various "what ifs".
True anarchy, just like true libertarianism or true communism, requires
that people be sensible and act to the optimum value within the established
system. An anarchy must rely on people to not go primal and start beating
each other. A truly libertarian society requires that everyone act
economically optimally and not do any version of the redhead example. A
truly communistic society requires that everyone always do their part and
not siphon off the system unfairly.
People generally suck too much for any of these things. There will always
be the asshat who has to wreck it, be it because of greed, malice,
laziness, or general idiocy. It's the premise of my Colony books...that
people aren't good enough for a communal society.
Having said that, I'm sure there's some scifi out there that does it and
ignores some of these issues. But then that's the problem I have with a
lot of scifi...it often assumes that people will act the rational way
necessary for the plot or the technology being presented and fails to
recognize that people have inherent tendencies and randomness about them.
Like the whole "smart fridge" concept (which I know isn't scifi, it's
something they're spending gobs on over at IBM and other companies)...it's
all well and good to imagine a fridge that is very orderly and keeps track
of how much X Y and Z you have and lets you know when to buy more, but it's
simply not realistic for many people who store various levels of mould
cultures on leftovers in re-used margarine tubs. And you can say, "Oh,
people will tell their fridge what's in each container and the fridge will
track it so it won't get mouldy" but that's assuming people have the time,
expertise, and will to do that. Right now I'm happy to have time to eat,
let alone explain things to the fridge.
So personally I find a lot of scifi to fall into the "sounds good but isn't
humanly feasible" category, from the mundane bits of technogoodies all the
way up to governmental structure.
But if you want to know about scifi that might have had anarchy in it,
email Corran and ask...he reads gobs of scifi. :) There are also some
serious scifi fans on my livejournal friends list, and authors too, so I
can make a post asking about it for you there if you like.
--
-- Kimberly Chapman, author, crafter, left-wing activist
kimb...@kimberlychapman.com
http://kimberlychapman.com
http://www.livejournal.com/~kimberlychapman/
Information on my novels:
http://kimberlychapman.com/writing/writing.html
Daniel Glick
> ne...@danielglick.com (Daniel Glick) wrote in <4OGdndnxkq0J5PvZnZ2dnUVZ_t-
> dn...@comcast.com>:
>
>>Basically, I was thinking about what could make anarchy work. If there
>>were some personally ownable technology that provided airtight (or close
>>enough) defense, without having any offensive capability, that would
>>seem to do the trick. Individuals would no longer rely on the government
>>for self-defense and the government would lack the ability to use force
>>to enforce laws or collect taxes.
>
>
> Such a device could conceivably take the place of cops, but if it's true
> anarchy, who puts out the fires? Corporations? Who maintains the roads?
> What if the people who provide these essential services decide, say, that
> they don't like a certain segment of the population?
I'm certainly not arguing that such a society would be just, or that I'd
favor it. I'm just questioning whether it would be sustainable, as in,
not killing itself off or re-forming a Government.
[snip]
> An anarchy must rely on people to not go primal and start beating
> each other.
Well, in my hypothetical above, literally beating each other is out of
the question due to the offense/defense situation. As you point, the
main mechanism of control would be trade (or refusal to trade).
Arguably, banishment from economic exchange could be used as a means of
social control, which means that a government could end up forming
anyway, perhaps arising out of a merchants' association.
[snip]
> It's the premise of my Colony books...that
> people aren't good enough for a communal society.
Speaking of which, any updates on the book publishing front?
[snip]
> And you can say, "Oh,
> people will tell their fridge what's in each container and the fridge will
> track it so it won't get mouldy" but that's assuming people have the time,
> expertise, and will to do that.
Sounds like we need smart packages as well, then. Or maybe just a good
database of UPC-to-contents mappings.
[snip]
> So personally I find a lot of scifi to fall into the "sounds good but isn't
> humanly feasible" category, from the mundane bits of technogoodies all the
> way up to governmental structure.
Oh absolutely. I'll readily admit this to totally wankery. I just enjoy
wankery. :)
[snip]
> But if you want to know about scifi that might have had anarchy in it,
> email Corran and ask...he reads gobs of scifi. :) There are also some
> serious scifi fans on my livejournal friends list, and authors too, so I
> can make a post asking about it for you there if you like.
Well, I got a couple of recommendations on my blog, so I'm going to
check those out first. Thanks!
Kimberly Chapman
>> true anarchy, who puts out the fires? Corporations? Who maintains
>> the roads? What if the people who provide these essential services
>> decide, say, that they don't like a certain segment of the population?
>
>I'm certainly not arguing that such a society would be just, or that I'd
>favor it. I'm just questioning whether it would be sustainable, as in,
>not killing itself off or re-forming a Government.
No, I realize you're posing it as a question, not an ideal, but personally
I don't think it's sustainable because of those issues. I think it'd
disband or end up forming a government of sorts. It might not be called a
government, but effectively there'd end up being some sort of governing
body.
>Well, in my hypothetical above, literally beating each other is out of
>the question due to the offense/defense situation. As you point, the
>main mechanism of control would be trade (or refusal to trade).
>Arguably, banishment from economic exchange could be used as a means of
>social control, which means that a government could end up forming
>anyway, perhaps arising out of a merchants' association.
Yes, banishment from the exchange would work, as long as most people agreed
on what leads to banishment. What if I don't care what anyone else does?
That means banishment doesn't work insofar as my place in the economic
structure. Or what if multiple factions establish themselves?
I just think people have a prediliction towards hierarchy and order, and
that if you remove the government as we know it, something else similar
will inevitably end up forming instead.
>> It's the premise of my Colony books...that
>> people aren't good enough for a communal society.
>
>Speaking of which, any updates on the book publishing front?
Possible lead on reprinting Sorrows, but nothing on Colony yet. Tor
rejected due to size and I haven't had a chance to resubmit elsewhere, in
part because I was waiting to see what was happening with Sorrows in the
hopes that that place would take Colony too. But it's a long process, and
I've got the baby to worry about...
>
>[snip]
> > And you can say, "Oh,
>> people will tell their fridge what's in each container and the fridge
>> will track it so it won't get mouldy" but that's assuming people have
>> the time, expertise, and will to do that.
>
>Sounds like we need smart packages as well, then. Or maybe just a good
>database of UPC-to-contents mappings.
The package would have to be smart enough to know that I've emptied out the
margarine and now I use it as a baby food dish, and sometimes if she's
fussy I put a dish with a blob back in the fridge for an hour.
And how does the fridge track my bottles of breast milk? Because that'd
actually be bloody useful, to keep track of how fresh it is.
And what about that re-used cottage cheese tub that now has leftover soup?
>> So personally I find a lot of scifi to fall into the "sounds good but
>> isn't humanly feasible" category, from the mundane bits of
>> technogoodies all the way up to governmental structure.
>
>Oh absolutely. I'll readily admit this to totally wankery. I just enjoy
>wankery. :)
I'm always happy to chat wankery. :D I just wish more scifi included
realistic human reactions. I'd read more if it did! Well, if I had time
to read...
>> But if you want to know about scifi that might have had anarchy in it,
>> email Corran and ask...he reads gobs of scifi. :) There are also some
>> serious scifi fans on my livejournal friends list, and authors too, so
>> I can make a post asking about it for you there if you like.
>
>Well, I got a couple of recommendations on my blog, so I'm going to
>check those out first. Thanks!
Okie dokie. Let me know if you need more. There are a couple of guys in
our D&D group that loooooooooove to talk scifi books/concepts for hours and
hours and hours.
Lurker Praps
Massage: <4OGdndnxkq0J5PvZ...@comcast.com>
Froom: Daniel Glick <ne...@danielglick.com>
On: Sat, 4638 Sep 1993 17:27:55 -0700
________________________________________________________________________________
> Basically, I was thinking about what could make anarchy work. If there
> were some personally ownable technology that provided airtight (or close
> enough) defense, without having any offensive capability, that would
> seem to do the trick.
<http://www.larryniven.org/stories/cloak_of_anarchy.htm>
/me waves.
--
Malc, Southend-on-Sea, UK (not Europe, or the World)
Keeper of the September Chicken.
Daniel Glick
> Also Sprach Daniel Glick:
>
> Massage: <4OGdndnxkq0J5PvZ...@comcast.com>
> Froom: Daniel Glick <ne...@danielglick.com>
> On: Sat, 4638 Sep 1993 17:27:55 -0700
> ________________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>>Basically, I was thinking about what could make anarchy work. If there
>>were some personally ownable technology that provided airtight (or close
>>enough) defense, without having any offensive capability, that would
>>seem to do the trick.
>
>
> <http://www.larryniven.org/stories/cloak_of_anarchy.htm>
>
> /me waves.
/me runs to the Audobon society to report a sighting of the Jellyroll.
Kimberly Chapman
>
>/me runs to the Audobon society to report a sighting of the Jellyroll.
Yeah, bit of a rare sighting, that! :D