ISO other INTJ Women--Less than 1% USA
artemesia
Appartently I am an INTJ. The group is reputed to be less than 5% of
the population, and females in this group are estimated to be 1% of the
population.
Is there any one else here in this group who would be willing to discuss
the situation?
Although i have "great social skills" i find I have very few people i
can relate to.
RSVP
Artemesia
*********
**
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
artemesia
artemesia
Marika Buchberger
artemesia wrote:
--
********************************************************************
Healthcare references for everyone.
"Recipient of the year 2000 Featured Site Award at healthAtoZ.com"
http://home.earthlink.net/~marika57/m_erika.html
Internet Safety Lessons. Must reading for everyone.
http://home.earthlink.net/~marika57/safetylessons.html
********************************************************************
The Masked Tortilla
>From: artemesia <diana...@my-deja.com>
>Date: Sat, Jun 17, 2000 20:58 EDT
>Message-id: <8ih6qu$4ii$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>
>Hi:
>
>Appartently I am an INTJ. The group is reputed to be less than 5% of
>the population, and females in this group are estimated to be 1% of the
>population.
>
>Is there any one else here in this group who would be willing to discuss
>the situation?
>
>Although i have "great social skills" i find I have very few people i
>can relate to.
>
>RSVP
>
>Artemesia
You might email Elzi Volk in misc.fitness.weights---she's an antsy INTJ
wench...Or SassySheSpock at aol.com (if that's still her screen name)...
___________________________________________________________________
DARE: To End Prohibition and the Failed, Evil "War On Drugs"
Rachael Elizabeth Driver
I am an INTJ.
On Sun, 18 Jun 2000, artemesia wrote:
! Hi:
!
! Appartently I am an INTJ. The group is reputed to be less than 5% of
! the population, and females in this group are estimated to be 1% of the
! population.
!
! Is there any one else here in this group who would be willing to discuss
! the situation?
!
! Although i have "great social skills" i find I have very few people i
! can relate to.
!
! RSVP
!
! Artemesia
! *********
!
! **
!
!
! Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
! Before you buy.
!
!
Marika Buchberger
The Masked Tortilla wrote:
> ><HTML><PRE>Subject: ISO other INTJ Women--Less than 1% USA
> >From: artemesia <diana...@my-deja.com>
> >Date: Sat, Jun 17, 2000 20:58 EDT
> >Message-id: <8ih6qu$4ii$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
> >
> >Hi:
> >
> >Appartently I am an INTJ. The group is reputed to be less than 5% of
> >the population, and females in this group are estimated to be 1% of the
> >population.
> >
> >Is there any one else here in this group who would be willing to discuss
> >the situation?
> >
> >Although i have "great social skills" i find I have very few people i
> >can relate to.
> >
> >RSVP
> >
> >Artemesia
>
> You might email Elzi Volk in misc.fitness.weights---she's an antsy INTJ
> wench...Or SassySheSpock at aol.com (if that's still her screen name)...
> ___________________________________________________________________
> DARE: To End Prohibition and the Failed, Evil "War On Drugs"
--
Alain Figer
>
> Hi:
>
> Appartently I am an INTJ.
You're welcome !
> The group is reputed to be less than 5% of the population, and females
> in this group are estimated to be 1% of the population.
It's not only true in USA. In France too.
> Is there any one else here in this group who would be willing to discuss
> the situation?
INFJ is another group with a comparatively low percentage in the global
population, especially among men.
> Although i have "great social skills"
Please, could you give more details about what you mean precisely ?
> i find I have very few people i can relate to.
Don't you think that greater social skills would help you ?
> RSVP
?? (Isn't it a french acronym ?)
>
> Artemesia
> *********
As a rule, INTJs feel themselves significantly different from average,
especially because they are often misunderstood by most of people. And
in fact they *are* rather different from average. The more extreme-INTJ
, the more far away from the average they are.
INTJs must modify their natural way of thinking and behaving if they
want to be less misunderstood by most others. And it is difficult to
accept to behave one'self in a not-natural way. 'To be natural or not',
this dilemma is a lifelong problem for an extreme INTJ. Such a dilemma
is even difficult to understand at all for people who are not so
different from average, since they don't face this one (since "Be
natural" is the classic common sense suggestion).
The situation is simpler for an INTJ rather T/F balanced. This case is
more frequent among female INTJs. As a rule, extreme T female INTJ would
experience severe difficulties in relating to other people.
Alain Figer
a french INTJ
Michel Lodewijck
I'm feeling well.
So, you complain y're not understand, not to have enough social skills, ... ?
Why looking people like you. They don't manage beter them social life, isn't
?
Alain Figer a écrit :
Alain Figer
>
> I'm a Belgian INTJ. So, I'm twice in a minority (Belgian + INTJ) ;-).
You're welcome.
> But I'm feeling well.
Why not ? :-)
> So, you complain y're not understand, not to have enough social skills, ... ?
> Why looking people like you.
You may happen to be rather out of subject.
Practical psychology is not generalizing from one'self case or whatever
unique one.
In fact, I wrote about INTJs as a group, not from my own case. Many
writings have been performed here and there about INTJs, and I have
personally studied a lot of them.
Moreover, I'm not exactly the typical INTJ. I'm rather an INXX, or more
precisely an INTJ-INFP, using the double type. I can be approximated to
an INTJ, if you use only 16 types, what is a rough approximation of the
reality.
Nevertheless, to come to the matter of your post, I must confess that I
did not find, up to now, that exhibiting great social skills was the
most striking characteristic of INTJs. :-)
As a group, for example ENFPs or ENFJs are known to perform much better
than INTJs in this respect.
Of course, since social skills are skills, they can be improved a lot
over time by any individual who really wants it.
So that you can easily find INTJs reasonably socially skilled.
If I may try this personal touch, from the tone of your response, I
really doubt you are one of them... ;-)
Sans rancune.
Alain Figer
P.S. Message personnel : Bonne chance à la Belgique pour l'Euro de foot!
artemesia
fg...@club-internet.fr wrote:
> The situation is simpler for an INTJ rather T/F balanced. This case is
> more frequent among female INTJs. As a rule, extreme T female INTJ
would
> experience severe difficulties in relating to other people.
Je suis une T extreme!
Artemesia
**********
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
artemesia
>
> > Although i have "great social skills"
>
> Please, could you give more details about what you mean precisely ?
>
> > i find I have very few people i can relate to.
>
> Don't you think that greater social skills would help you ?
>
Re: Social Skills
I the US we have a term, "a sosch", meaning the type of popular
girl who has boyfiends, goes to dances, is a cheerleader, "Miss
Congeniality".....a "Southern Belle," a socialite.
Because of the family i was born into, it was essential that i
develop these skills and i did. However, i am not an extrovert, and
"working the room" and "Flying the Flag" at social functions are
slightley exhausting. i can do it, very well, (Years of business
entertaining and being an appropriate wife, daughter, mother.)
However, the social part of me is something that I see primarily
as "my job". When I do it I am "on " and doing it for a reason. mainly
because it is expected, and effective.
In my professional life I am a financial planner, and i like it
very much because it requires analysis, the ability to explain, the
ability to persuade from logic, the ability to identify client needs and
means to acheive them.
I find that I need to be with men who are significantly
stronger and more "powerful" than i, or I will intimidate them. I don't
try to do it, but i don't want to/can't play Madam Butterfly at home.
I need a man who is intelectually stimulating, and has a very firm
character. (Principals are important to me.)
I'd like to be able to find more intellectual stimulation, and
a group of friends who can "keep up with me" and "keep me on my toes."
Most of the people i meet are rather pedestrian.
Also, i am a very feminine woman, visually and tempermaentally,
but in many things i am very pragmatic and practical...much more so than
most men I meet.
I supppose I am bored.
Any advice?
Artemesia
Alain Figer
> > more frequent among female INTJs. As a rule, extreme T female INTJ
> would
> > experience severe difficulties in relating to other people.
>
> Je suis une T extreme!
>
> Artemesia
> **********
Eh bien, toutes mes condoléances !
Non, t'en fais pas, j'ai dit çà pour rigoler ...
mais ... fais gaffe quand même !
A.F. ( d'après Coluche) :-)
Jargon
seem to be able to find them.
Many an INTJ woman has turned her nose up at me. However, after about 9-12
months, most make an abrubt turn-around. I am very relaxed and congenial,
and they take this as being soft. What principals do I show? I do not pay
attention to many important things.
Somwhere in there, something in their brains click, and they suddenly "get"
who I am. Suddenly, all those traits that worked against me now work for me.
I am an INTP, btw.
Anyhow, I would advise that you give folks much more time before you write
them off or determine them unsuitable. Some men's strength lie deeper than
others.
Douglas
artemesia wrote:
> In article <394CC4...@club-internet.fr>,
> fg...@club-internet.fr wrote:
>
> >
Jon Silver
Yahoo! hosts discussion boards for all 16 Myers-Briggs personality
types. The two INTJ groups (listed below) are far and away the most
active. The first one (intjalternative) is mostly used by women and has
40 members.
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/intjalternative
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/intjopen
artemesia wrote:
>
> Hi:
>
> Appartently I am an INTJ. The group is reputed to be less than 5% of
> the population, and females in this group are estimated to be 1% of the
> population.
>
> Is there any one else here in this group who would be willing to discuss
> the situation?
>
> Although i have "great social skills" i find I have very few people i
> can relate to.
>
> RSVP
>
> Artemesia
> *********
artemesia
Jon Silver <jons...@home.com> wrote:
> Artemesia,
>
> Yahoo! hosts discussion boards for all 16 Myers-Briggs personality
> types. The two INTJ groups (listed below) are far and away the most
> active. The first one (intjalternative) is mostly used by women and
has
> 40 members.
>
> http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/intjalternative
> http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/intjopen
>
Thank you very much for providing me with this information.
I have signed up for both of these groups.
You are a Champion!
Artemesia
*********
Joseph Oberlander
> the population, and females in this group are estimated to be 1% of the
> population.
Actually, the population is evenly split between the sexes and it is our
society that creates the bias. Most Women find it hard to survive as
INTJs and most Men find it hard to survive as INFP.
I have long suspected that there is a lot of type-swapping going on in order
to conform and survive during childhood, and you end up with the following:
INFP -> turns into either INFJ or INTJ
INTJ -> turns into INFJ or INFP
Now, the first type-swapping is easy to understand - their difficulty
in blending in and being accepted makes the INFP type turn into an INFJ
(they get hardened and disillusioned) or the INTJ type turn into an
INFJ type(more easily accepted and a viable outlet for their angst)
Later on, you have a lot of the INFJ types either reverting back to their
original types(midlife crisis for example, though this is largely true of
all people who are not their "true" type) or swapping their secondary
functioning modes for their primary ones.
Going from FP to FJ tends to also turn you into a colder, more analytical
person and hide your feelings.
Going from TJ to FJ tends to make you desire to explore things less so and
explore all your pent-up feelings.
INFP male turns into INTJ and is accepted as a typical analytical type.
INTJ woman turns into INFP and is accepted as a quiet, introverted type.
Now, their "true" type is still what it originally was, but the problem
is that the "act" becomes easier to live as than reality. Now, many other
types also do this, but these two have the special ability to play the
part so well that they actually willingly become the other types.
Hence much of the reason for therapy - people for whatever reason
not being properly internally "aligned" :) as well as the "missing"
3% or so from each type in our society.
Now, what does this mean? Carefully look for people of the other
types I mentioned - you should find nearly as many "covert" INTJs and
INFPs as you would looking for a "normal" type. Most are posing as
INFJs with a bit of overlapping.
Me? INFP. I spent seventeen years as an INTJ until I had my "crisis"
at 23 and realized that I was doing things wrongly. My fiance'(now Wife),
though, liked me much better as the INTJ - it was an adjustment. Heh.
The Masked Tortilla
>From: Joseph Oberlander <ober...@pacbell.net>
>Date: Tue, Jun 27, 2000 01:18 EDT
>Message-id: <3958391A...@pacbell.net>
>
>> Appartently I am an INTJ. The group is reputed to be less than 5% of
>> the population, and females in this group are estimated to be 1% of the
>> population.
>
>Actually, the population is evenly split between the sexes and it is our
>society that creates the bias. Most Women find it hard to survive as
>INTJs and most Men find it hard to survive as INFP.
>
>I have long suspected that there is a lot of type-swapping going on in order
>to conform and survive during childhood, and you end up with the following:
>
>INFP -> turns into either INFJ or INTJ
>
>INTJ -> turns into INFJ or INFP
>
>Now, the first type-swapping is easy to understand - their difficulty
>in blending in and being accepted makes the INFP type turn into an INFJ
>(they get hardened and disillusioned) or the INTJ type turn into an
>INFJ type(more easily accepted and a viable outlet for their angst)
>
>Later on, you have a lot of the INFJ types either reverting back to their
>original types(midlife crisis for example, though this is largely true of
>all people who are not their "true" type) or swapping their secondary
>functioning modes for their primary ones.
>
>Going from FP to FJ tends to also turn you into a colder, more analytical
>person and hide your feelings.
No---FJs extravert Feeling. You must mean TJ here. But NFPs also extravert T,
so this isn't necessarily attempting to pass as another type, it's natural
albeit misleading behavior...
>
>Going from TJ to FJ tends to make you desire to explore things less so and
>explore all your pent-up feelings.
Okay. I _do_ hate ENFJs like Oprah and Clinton. They make me projectile vomit
like Linda Blair in The Exorcist with all their "I FEEL yer pain" garbage...
>
>INFP male turns into INTJ and is accepted as a typical analytical type.
>INTJ woman turns into INFP and is accepted as a quiet, introverted type.
I've yet to meet an INTJ female who looked anything like an INFP, however I
have met a few TJ women who would overcompensate in a really FJ type manner...
>
>Now, their "true" type is still what it originally was, but the problem
>is that the "act" becomes easier to live as than reality. Now, many other
>types also do this, but these two have the special ability to play the
>part so well that they actually willingly become the other types.
>
>Hence much of the reason for therapy - people for whatever reason
>not being properly internally "aligned" :) as well as the "missing"
>3% or so from each type in our society.
>
>
>Now, what does this mean? Carefully look for people of the other
>types I mentioned - you should find nearly as many "covert" INTJs and
>INFPs as you would looking for a "normal" type. Most are posing as
>INFJs with a bit of overlapping.
INTJ...
>
>Me? INFP. I spent seventeen years as an INTJ until I had my "crisis"
>at 23 and realized that I was doing things wrongly. My fiance'(now Wife),
>though, liked me much better as the INTJ - it was an adjustment. Heh.
From Vulcan to Lennon? I imagine...
>
></PRE></HTML>
___________________________________________________________________
"I want your heart. I want to eat your children.'' ---Mike "I'm Perfectly Sane"
Tyson
June 24, 2000
Joseph Oberlander
> >Later on, you have a lot of the INFJ types either reverting back to their
> >original types(midlife crisis for example, though this is largely true of
> >all people who are not their "true" type) or swapping their secondary
> >functioning modes for their primary ones.
> >
> >Going from FP to FJ tends to also turn you into a colder, more analytical
> >person and hide your feelings.
>
> No---FJs extravert Feeling. You must mean TJ here. But NFPs also extravert T,
> so this isn't necessarily attempting to pass as another type, it's natural
> albeit misleading behavior...
But the original person was FP, and they *do* have the same secondary
"modes" as a TJ. The primary concern for the FP is to be accepted and
loved by those close to them, and they will willingly role-play as
anything else in order to get their needs met.
The FP to FJ transition is percieved as an "acceptable" method of acting
in our society for Men, so to fit in, you change. The secondary effects
are such so that most go to TJ or SJ or something simmilar, as going
"back" to what you just changed from is not going to solve your problem.
This sort of behavior is common for many FP type male children in
our society. It is far, far easier to become an introverted "geek"
by withdrawing than to try to survive in a world where people look at you
as being odd if you aren't some machismo-sexist-freak.
> >INFP male turns into INTJ and is accepted as a typical analytical type.
> >INTJ woman turns into INFP and is accepted as a quiet, introverted type.
>
> I've yet to meet an INTJ female who looked anything like an INFP, however I
> have met a few TJ women who would overcompensate in a really FJ type manner...
What I am pointing out is that many of these types spend a lot of their
life as other types in order to survive or gain acceptance, much like
many young people who are not heterosexual try and hide their true
selves. Note: this covers Gay/Bi/Lesbian/Trans/Andro/etc - about 8 or so types
of sexuality and their varying degrees of influence. There is data to
suggest that as much as 60-70% of humans are in one of these categories
to varying degrees, but they conform and hide or have fantasies about
these behaviors. Social pressures are immense for most people.
And getting back to your comnent - This is what I'm talking about :)
TJ women overcompensate and act FJ and FP men overcompensate and act FJ,
as for both FJ is a "safe" alternative. From there, once that has
become their "normal" mode of functioning, their internal conflict
grows and their secondary functioning modes assert themselves as their
new primary ones(ie: they swap relevance) OR they switch back.
So, yes, they do exist, but many are "hiding" as other types.
> From Vulcan to Lennon? I imagine...
No, more like from Lennon to Vulcan(keeping emotions under strict
control and such - secondary highly rational thinking becomes primary by
choice) and finally back again when you become more enlightened and are
removed from your ultra-conservative biggoted family.
(ie: "men don't cry" and "women stay barefoot" type of rubbish - thankfully
I never bought a word of it)
I have also seen INFPs turn into ISFPs and ENFJs and a slew of other
types, but INFJ seems to be the largest type they change into.
The Masked Tortilla
>From: Joseph Oberlander <ober...@pacbell.net>
>Message-id: <395A67C8...@pacbell.net>
>
>
>> >Later on, you have a lot of the INFJ types either reverting back to their
>> >original types(midlife crisis for example, though this is largely true of
>> >all people who are not their "true" type) or swapping their secondary
>> >functioning modes for their primary ones.
>> >
>> >Going from FP to FJ tends to also turn you into a colder, more analytical
>> >person and hide your feelings.
>>
>> No---FJs extravert Feeling. You must mean TJ here. But NFPs also extravert
>T,
>> so this isn't necessarily attempting to pass as another type, it's natural
>> albeit misleading behavior...
>
>But the original person was FP, and they *do* have the same secondary
>"modes" as a TJ.
This was my point. It is _far_ easier for an NFP to pass as a TJ than as an
FJ...
The primary concern for the FP is to be accepted and
>loved by those close to them, and they will willingly role-play as
>anything else in order to get their needs met.
>
>The FP to FJ transition is percieved as an "acceptable" method of acting
>in our society for Men, so to fit in, you change.
It is exceedingly difficult for FPs to mimic FJs...We simply don't have the
brain for it...
The secondary effects
>are such so that most go to TJ or SJ or something simmilar, as going
>"back" to what you just changed from is not going to solve your problem.
>This sort of behavior is common for many FP type male children in
>our society. It is far, far easier to become an introverted "geek"
>by withdrawing than to try to survive in a world where people look at you
>as being odd if you aren't some machismo-sexist-freak.
>
>
>> >INFP male turns into INTJ and is accepted as a typical analytical type.
>> >INTJ woman turns into INFP and is accepted as a quiet, introverted type.
>>
>> I've yet to meet an INTJ female who looked anything like an INFP, however I
>> have met a few TJ women who would overcompensate in a really FJ type
>manner...
>
>What I am pointing out is that many of these types spend a lot of their
>life as other types in order to survive or gain acceptance, much like
>many young people who are not heterosexual try and hide their true
>selves. Note: this covers Gay/Bi/Lesbian/Trans/Andro/etc - about 8 or so
>types
>of sexuality and their varying degrees of influence. There is data to
>suggest that as much as 60-70% of humans are in one of these categories
>to varying degrees, but they conform and hide or have fantasies about
>these behaviors. Social pressures are immense for most people.
>
>And getting back to your comnent - This is what I'm talking about :)
>
>TJ women overcompensate and act FJ and FP men overcompensate and act FJ,
Huh? INFJ males are nearly as weird as we INFPs...And again, it is exceedingly
difficult to play the role of someone with opposite ATTITUDES (FJ)...It is far
easier for NFPs to use their 3rd and 4th functions (STJ) than to extravert F or
introvert N...
>as for both FJ is a "safe" alternative. From there, once that has
>become their "normal" mode of functioning, their internal conflict
>grows and their secondary functioning modes assert themselves as their
>new primary ones(ie: they swap relevance) OR they switch back.
>
>So, yes, they do exist, but many are "hiding" as other types.
>
>
>> From Vulcan to Lennon? I imagine...
>
>No, more like from Lennon to Vulcan(keeping emotions under strict
>control and such - secondary highly rational thinking becomes primary by
>choice) and finally back again when you become more enlightened and are
>removed from your ultra-conservative biggoted family.
Uh...you mean from Vulcan to Lennon. I believe if you look up redundant in the
dictionary it will say "see redundant"
>(ie: "men don't cry" and "women stay barefoot" type of rubbish - thankfully
>I never bought a word of it)
>
>I have also seen INFPs turn into ISFPs and ENFJs and a slew of other
>types, but INFJ seems to be the largest type they change into.
I've rarely seen an NFP appear misleadingly WARM, nor do you tend to find such
descriptions if you hunt around in the lit-ruh-chaw. Perhaps you are
encountering real live INFJs...
>
>
></PRE></HTML>
___________________________________________________________________
"I want to eat his children.'' ---Mike "I'm Perfectly Sane" Tyson
Joseph Oberlander
> >"modes" as a TJ.
>
> This was my point. It is _far_ easier for an NFP to pass as a TJ than as an
> FJ...
True. And eventually, you see many FP Men functioning as TJ types.
I suspect that the opposite is true for Women, and this would account for
the disparity between gender for these two types.
> The primary concern for the FP is to be accepted and
> >loved by those close to them, and they will willingly role-play as
> >anything else in order to get their needs met.
> >
> >The FP to FJ transition is percieved as an "acceptable" method of acting
> >in our society for Men, so to fit in, you change.
>
> It is exceedingly difficult for FPs to mimic FJs...We simply don't have the
> brain for it...
Since FPs can mimic TJs, mimicing TP or FJ types should be possible,
though a bit odd - you feel like you are living a lie, deep down.
(Or the world just doesn't make sense/you bought into the "J" that
your parents put upon you)
> Huh? INFJ males are nearly as weird as we INFPs...And again, it is exceedingly
> difficult to play the role of someone with opposite ATTITUDES (FJ)...It is far
> easier for NFPs to use their 3rd and 4th functions (STJ) than to extravert F or
> introvert N...
I believe that STJ is easier to mimic, but the primary pull of the
N, combined with the subconscious conflict that is going on invariably
makes you much more cold and rational to get through life.
It *is* interesting how people change and alter themselves to fit into
their percieved roles.
I have seen all sorts of people playing almost anything - and hence, why
so many of us are in therapy. Our society hates true individuality and
personal freedom and many of us do not feel free to be ourselves.
(Go over to your relatives for dinner and you can see this :) )
> >No, more like from Lennon to Vulcan(keeping emotions under strict
> >control and such - secondary highly rational thinking becomes primary by
> >choice) and finally back again when you become more enlightened and are
> >removed from your ultra-conservative biggoted family.
>
> Uh...you mean from Vulcan to Lennon. I believe if you look up redundant in the
> dictionary it will say "see redundant"
Heh. The point was that I originally started out as INFP and my parents
were ESTJ and ENTJ - cold, hard rationalists that fed off of each other.
So I've come full-circle and it does provide a few interesting insights
on how we change and act as other types.
> >(ie: "men don't cry" and "women stay barefoot" type of rubbish - thankfully
> >I never bought a word of it)
> >
> >I have also seen INFPs turn into ISFPs and ENFJs and a slew of other
> >types, but INFJ seems to be the largest type they change into.
>
> I've rarely seen an NFP appear misleadingly WARM, nor do you tend to find such
> descriptions if you hunt around in the lit-ruh-chaw. Perhaps you are
> encountering real live INFJs...
Possibly, but INFPs can act that way - you know the type - almost fake happy...
The Masked Tortilla
>> >in our society for Men, so to fit in, you change.
>>
>> It is exceedingly difficult for FPs to mimic FJs...We simply don't have the
>> brain for it...
>
>Since FPs can mimic TJs, mimicing TP or FJ types should be possible,
>though a bit odd - you feel like you are living a lie, deep down.
>(Or the world just doesn't make sense/you bought into the "J" that
>your parents put upon you)
>
>
It's not that simple. For an INFP to mimic, say, an ENFP or an ISTJ, the INFP
uses less prefered function/attitude pairs (EN, IS, etc) in the easy, familiar
way he or she does anyway. It is uncomfortable and exhausting for an INFP, but
it doesn't require using skills he or she hasn't developed nearly to the extent
that mimicing function/attitudes (Extraverted Feeling, say) that are largely
nonused by INFPs.
Watch an INFP in sales, for example compared with an ETP---The ETP will
completely and utterly destroy the INFP when it comes to using Extraverted
Feeling in an effective manner to close a sale, despite the fact that F is the
third function for the ETP and 1st for the INFP. Extraverted Feeling is a
natural, albeit non-prefered function/attitude for an ETP, but a completely
foreign concept to a true-blue INFP...
Joseph Oberlander
> completely and utterly destroy the INFP when it comes to using Extraverted
> Feeling in an effective manner to close a sale, despite the fact that F is the
> third function for the ETP and 1st for the INFP. Extraverted Feeling is a
> natural, albeit non-prefered function/attitude for an ETP, but a completely
> foreign concept to a true-blue INFP...
On the other hand, I have seen the reverse happen. Many of my friends
in fact, do not like that type of "sales" approach - it just feels as fake
as it is. It can be done very effectively by an INFP, but it is
from a different perspective(ie: more like a Realitor interfaces with
a customer - much more time and attention to detail, like a consultant)
What I find interesting is the nonsense that they taught in business schools
for the last thirty or so years. So much of it is just fake and narrow -
minded. I have been there and if left to my own means, I am an incredibly
effective salesperson if I truly believe in the product.
I also find that people also resepect being treated as more than a walking
wallet. This is especially true in the Automotive Industry.
If I owned a large company, you can bet that the last person I would hire
is someone with a M.B.A.
The Masked Tortilla
>From: Joseph Oberlander <ober...@pacbell.net>
>Message-id: <395CD609...@pacbell.net>
>
>> Watch an INFP in sales, for example compared with an ETP---The ETP will
>> completely and utterly destroy the INFP when it comes to using Extraverted
>> Feeling in an effective manner to close a sale, despite the fact that F is
>the
>> third function for the ETP and 1st for the INFP. Extraverted Feeling is a
>> natural, albeit non-prefered function/attitude for an ETP, but a completely
>> foreign concept to a true-blue INFP...
>
>On the other hand, I have seen the reverse happen. Many of my friends
>in fact, do not like that type of "sales" approach - it just feels as fake
>as it is.
That's a classic Introverted Feeling perspective on Extraverted Feeling
behavior---we simply do not schmooze and bond easily using Extraverted Feeling
the way FJs and TPs can...
FPs (esp EFPs) can be good salespeople, but NOT in the same way...
Darita-Rose Pendragon
> artemesia wrote:
> >
> > Hi:
> >
> > Appartently I am an INTJ.
>
> You're welcome !
>
> > The group is reputed to be less than 5% of the population, and females
> > in this group are estimated to be 1% of the population.
>
> It's not only true in USA. In France too.
>
> > Is there any one else here in this group who would be willing to discuss
> > the situation?
>
> INFJ is another group with a comparatively low percentage in the global
> population, especially among men.
>
> > Although i have "great social skills"
>
> Please, could you give more details about what you mean precisely ?
>
> > i find I have very few people i can relate to.
>
> Don't you think that greater social skills would help you ?
>
> > RSVP
>
> ?? (Isn't it a french acronym ?)
>
> >
> > Artemesia
> > *********
>
> As a rule, INTJs feel themselves significantly different from average,
> especially because they are often misunderstood by most of people. And
> in fact they *are* rather different from average. The more extreme-INTJ
> , the more far away from the average they are.
>
> INTJs must modify their natural way of thinking and behaving if they
> want to be less misunderstood by most others. And it is difficult to
> accept to behave one'self in a not-natural way. 'To be natural or not',
> this dilemma is a lifelong problem for an extreme INTJ. Such a dilemma
> is even difficult to understand at all for people who are not so
> different from average, since they don't face this one (since "Be
> natural" is the classic common sense suggestion).
>
> The situation is simpler for an INTJ rather T/F balanced. This case is
> more frequent among female INTJs. As a rule, extreme T female INTJ would
> experience severe difficulties in relating to other people.
>
> Alain Figer
> a french INTJ
Um, no, better social skills would not help her, because a lot of it is about
being understood, and it's hard for people to understand INTJs (and INTPs, and
possibly INFJs and INFPs) because a lot of understanding comes with
identifying. When you are a rare type, people often cannot identify.
I am wondering why other women just answered that they too were INTJs and
that's all they said?
I sometimes feel lonely as an INTJ. My son is an INTP, and that helps a lot,
but he is going to college this fall. Also, sometimes I feel useless or
stupid. In one of her books, Marie Louise von Franz, whom I usually adore,
makes fun of us by pointing out how unaware we can be of our surroundings.
Well, it's true. If you want depth and a different way of looking at things,
come to an INTJ. I remember seeing "Fantasia" on LSD in the late 60s, and
later talking about it with a friend, and I said that I thought that Disney
had serious problems with women/the feminine (and I still think so). A friend
of mine found this amusing, surprising, and a little weird, but at least it
was different, right?
Darita-Rose
--
Since Love is Lord of Heaven and Earth
How can I keep from singing?
--American Shaker Hymn
__________________________
http://home.earthlink.net/~daritarose
Darita-Rose Pendragon
> In article <394CC4...@club-internet.fr>,
> fg...@club-internet.fr wrote:
>
> >
> > > Although i have "great social skills"
> >
> > Please, could you give more details about what you mean precisely ?
> >
> > > i find I have very few people i can relate to.
> >
> > Don't you think that greater social skills would help you ?
> >
>
> Artemesia
> *********
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
Well, yes, part of the loneliness of the INTJ woman is boredom. Of
course,
as Is, we tend not to need a lot of friends, just a few who can deal
with us
well. Do you think that we are unusually intense? I am intense, but I
don't know whether it's being this type in THIS typology system, or
having
six planets in fire in my astrological chart, or what. All the things
you
said are very much INTJ things. However, you cannot always tell about a
man
from his type--my husband is an ESFJ, the most common female type in the
USA, but less common among men. As a result, he likes women (in a good
way,
he's not a skirt-chaser), and women like him. But he's still very
strong,
not a wimp or anything. A good balance for me, because the SJs really
do
tend to do better with the practical things of life.
Pat
> or more hours a day). But since he's been working with our success coach, it's
> clear that he is an E--our coach uses this typology all the time (an extreme
> ENTJ).
Does your success coach have a website?
But this is not healthy. In his case, being forced into ISFJ, he
> becomes an introverted sensate type, and since it's not a healthy thing, this
> can go into unhealthy introverted sensate stuff such as gluttony (because it's
> not essentially a social activity), which it did. He's not gluttonous now.
Stress eating is one of my problems and I'm INTP. Didn't know
it's an IS thing but I'm not surprised. Trying to cure it, but....>
Where do they come up with this skinny NT stereotype?
Patricia (Pat) Mathews
mat...@unm.edu
Darita-Rose Pendragon
> > Appartently I am an INTJ. The group is reputed to be less than 5% of
> > the population, and females in this group are estimated to be 1% of the
> > population.
>
> Actually, the population is evenly split between the sexes and it is our
> society that creates the bias. Most Women find it hard to survive as
> INTJs and most Men find it hard to survive as INFP.
>
> I have long suspected that there is a lot of type-swapping going on in order
> to conform and survive during childhood, and you end up with the following:
>
> INFP -> turns into either INFJ or INTJ
>
> INTJ -> turns into INFJ or INFP
>
> Now, the first type-swapping is easy to understand - their difficulty
> in blending in and being accepted makes the INFP type turn into an INFJ
> (they get hardened and disillusioned) or the INTJ type turn into an
> INFJ type(more easily accepted and a viable outlet for their angst)
>
> Later on, you have a lot of the INFJ types either reverting back to their
> original types(midlife crisis for example, though this is largely true of
> all people who are not their "true" type) or swapping their secondary
> functioning modes for their primary ones.
>
> Going from FP to FJ tends to also turn you into a colder, more analytical
> person and hide your feelings.
>
> Going from TJ to FJ tends to make you desire to explore things less so and
> explore all your pent-up feelings.
>
> INFP male turns into INTJ and is accepted as a typical analytical type.
> INTJ woman turns into INFP and is accepted as a quiet, introverted type.
>
> Now, their "true" type is still what it originally was, but the problem
> is that the "act" becomes easier to live as than reality. Now, many other
> types also do this, but these two have the special ability to play the
> part so well that they actually willingly become the other types.
>
> Hence much of the reason for therapy - people for whatever reason
> not being properly internally "aligned" :) as well as the "missing"
> 3% or so from each type in our society.
>
> Now, what does this mean? Carefully look for people of the other
> types I mentioned - you should find nearly as many "covert" INTJs and
> INFPs as you would looking for a "normal" type. Most are posing as
> INFJs with a bit of overlapping.
>
> Me? INFP. I spent seventeen years as an INTJ until I had my "crisis"
> at 23 and realized that I was doing things wrongly. My fiance'(now Wife),
> though, liked me much better as the INTJ - it was an adjustment. Heh.
This is interesting, I have wondered about this "type-swapping"--whether or not
it really happens. My husband, I was astounded to learn, is an extravert. He
was kind of forced into introversion as a child because he was the youngest, and
a feeler. He's an ESFJ in a heavily J family--so he was Ok from that
standpoint. He's also a musician, and they have to be able to spend large
numbers of hours alone with their instrument in order to succeed (practicing 6
or more hours a day). But since he's been working with our success coach, it's
clear that he is an E--our coach uses this typology all the time (an extreme
ENTJ). But this is not healthy. In his case, being forced into ISFJ, he
becomes an introverted sensate type, and since it's not a healthy thing, this
can go into unhealthy introverted sensate stuff such as gluttony (because it's
not essentially a social activity), which it did. He's not gluttonous now. But
his affinity is toward extraverted feeling, and coming into his own authentic
self, he's finding that he likes most people; his heart is more open. Thanks
for the input!
DR
The Masked Tortilla
>it's an IS thing but I'm not surprised. Trying to cure it, but....>
> Where do they come up with this skinny NT stereotype?
>
>Patricia (Pat) Mathews
>mat...@unm.edu
>
>
Actually, if there is a simple way to characterize stress-related abuse of
anything---food, drugs, spouse, sex, etc.---it is likely to be forced (by job,
circumstances, etc) overuse of non-preferences...
You, for example, might find your stressors to be excessive interaction with
people, excessive (and in your view, irrational) rote memorization,
unquestioning acceptance of the status quo, lack of opportunites to
theorize/analyse, excessive pressure to be neat/tidy, etc...
In any case, you're a goddamn freak, and we must lobotomize you at once.
NURSE!
___________________________________________________________________
Republicans suck
Democrats swallow
Vote Libertarian
___________________________________________________________________
Pat
> Actually, if there is a simple way to characterize stress-related abuse of
> anything---food, drugs, spouse, sex, etc.---it is likely to be forced (by job,
> circumstances, etc) overuse of non-preferences...
>
> You, for example, might find your stressors to be excessive interaction with
> people,
I'm an accountant. Whose desk is behind the customer service
counter. They don't push the buzzer for the floor clerks; that would be
*rude*! They stand there and breathe, ever more noisily as the person
behind the counter inexplicably fails to give them any attention.
excessive (and in your view, irrational) rote memorization,
Data entry which could be mechanized takes up 33% of my time on
tyhe job!
> unquestioning acceptance of the status quo, lack of opportunites to
> theorize/analyse, excessive pressure to be neat/tidy, etc...
>
I work for the University of New Mexico. "nuff said?
> In any case, you're a goddamn freak, and we must lobotomize you at once.
>
> NURSE!
Yes, Nurse, let's go out for coffee and (dis)cuss management. I'll
buy the tuna; you buy the milk.
Thanks, masked tortilla!!!!
Patricia (Pat) Mathews
mat...@unm.edu
Jargon
I don't stress eat at all. I do bored eat, so I limit the amount of food that I have
in the house. When I am bored, I find that there is nothing great to eat, so I don't.
Douglas
The Masked Tortilla
>Date: Sun, Jul 9, 2000 15:20 EDT
>Message-id: <Pine.PCW.3.96.1000709121746.4550A-100000@Pat>
Well...I don't mean to be flip here, but as one who has had a number of crappy
jobs in the past, unless you are 103 and are going to croak in two weeks
anyway----find a better job, one you enjoy and which you actually look forward
to and are energized by...
This is America (or, to ISTP Mr Springsteen, UhMurikuh) and
social/geographic/occupational mobility is the norm, so "take heart!" as some
sappy person (such as moi) would say...
DO WHAT YOU ARE, btw, is a good type/job book...
Bad INTP job: Fry Cook Al Johnson
Good INTP job: Software Czar Bill Gates
Bad INTP job: VP Al Gore
Good INTP job: Actor Jeff Bridges
ETC...
J and L Miranda
Pat <mat...@unm.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.PCW.3.96.1000709121746.4550A-100000@Pat...
> I'm an accountant. Whose desk is behind the customer service
> counter. They don't push the buzzer for the floor clerks; that would be
> *rude*! They stand there and breathe, ever more noisily as the person
> behind the counter inexplicably fails to give them any attention.
I've obviously come late to this discussion, but I'm an INTJ who happens to
be an architect AND the only woman (save the administrative
assistant/receptionist) in my former office. This other woman was
part-time, so someone had the bright idea of putting up a bell just in case
anyone came into the lobby and needed help. Only once in the entire several
years I worked there was there EVER a person who actually needed help. Most
of the time, it was a subcontrator standing around having a conversation and
hitting the bell as, I don't know, kind of an unrealized habit. Of course,
I was the only person who ever bothered to get up and check when the bell
was rung (and wouldn't you know, I had the desk farthest away). Once it was
rung several times in a row very pointedly. When I reached the lobby, the
general contractor who shared the office space said, "I just wanted to see
if anyone was answering this". I took the bell, and in no uncertain terms,
told him if that ever happened again, I would open the door and heave the
thing as far into the distance as I could.
Just after this time, the bell disappeared. I 'found' it during a local
community theatre performance -- the administrative assistant was the
director of the play -- and it was being used as a prop. I KNOW it was
*the* bell due to its disappearance. But I'd have known that %&*#! thing
anywhere -- like Pavlov's dogs that thing had a way of setting off an
unconscious reaction. She's lucky I didn't stand up, grab the thing and
heave it into the audience.
Strangely enough, even though I left the firm four years ago, there is still
discussion of the bell. I don't know if it was ever returned. But my
husband (who continues to work at the same firm at which I used to work),
came home and said that when someone was clearing out the wooded lot next to
the building's parking lot, they found a rusted old desk bell -- had I 'lost
it' way back then and not told anyone? Well, I didn't, and I told him so.
But it tickled me to no end that apparently SOMEONE had.
By the way, I left the firm to have a baby. Being a stay-at-home-mom and
now a work-at-home-mom, my experience with dealing with interruptions (which
I hate) has been a true life lesson. Can't heave a baby out the window!
L
Diego
Pat <mat...@unm.edu> wrote:
> But this is not healthy. In his case, being forced into ISFJ, he
>> becomes an introverted sensate type, and since it's not a healthy thing, this
>> can go into unhealthy introverted sensate stuff such as gluttony (because it's
>> not essentially a social activity), which it did. He's not gluttonous now.
>
> Stress eating is one of my problems and I'm INTP. Didn't know
>it's an IS thing but I'm not surprised. Trying to cure it, but....>
> Where do they come up with this skinny NT stereotype?
It is my problem too; working to straighten the self-estime component.
In one of the book about MBTI I recently found that "N" people are more likely to be overweight, because they
are not so aware of the sensorial stimjuli and get bored of them rather quickly; so, they don't pay attention to
what they eat and don't get the sense of how much they have eaten up to that point.
The suggestion was to begin eating slowly and try to get the sensory evidence of what one is eating. Basicaly,
to enhance the "S" component of the perceiving function.