Dealing with trolls
Tombstonetales
Dealing with trolls
Subject: 1. Introduction and Intent
This FAQ describes what a Troll is, what they do, what can be
done about them, together with some suggestions as to why they do
may it. Other FAQs on similar subjects, have not covered the
?philosophy? and ?organization? behind this phenomena, and have
not covered the intent of destruction which is now evident.
While every usenet user has been the victim of Trolls, very
few have had the opportunity to study many thousand troll
posts and look for patterns. They are therefore unaware of
the methods used. It is important that all usenet users
have access to as much information as possible. A person
who has only experienced the Crosspost Trolls in a Sub
Target newsgroup will naturally suggest inappropriate
measures.
I have only included things which the Trolls have demonstrated
that they are well aware.
This FAQ is coordinated by Dave Fawthrop
Subject: 2. Table of contents
1. Introduction
2. Table of contents
3. What is a troll?
3.1 The old definition
3.2 the drivel Troll
3.3 The destructive Troll
3.4 The nasty Troll
3.5 The evil and illegal Troll
3.6 How they are organised
4. What do they do?
4.1 Drivel
4.2 The crosspost Troll
4.3 The request for assistance.
4.4 General nastiness
4.5 Personal attacks on individuals and groups.
4.6 Forgeries
4.7 Setting X-No-Archive: Yes
4.8 On Topic Trolls
4.9 Disrupting usenet
4.10 Hipcrime
4.11 They read newsgroups
4.12 Generate splits among subscribers
4.13 Bullying
4.14 Threaten to infect computers with viruses.
5. What can be done about them?
5.1 Ignore them and they will go away?
5.2 Use a Killfile
5.3 A moderated newsgroup
5.4 A purely robomoderated newsgroup
5.5 A Yahoo Group Listserver
5.6 Cancel posts
5.7 LART (report to ISP)
5.8 Trim the newsgroup line
5.9 Give them a good st*ff*ng
5.10 Follow up the offending posts.
5.11 Digitally Sign Posts with PGP.
5.12 Continue posting On Topic posts to the newsgroup.
5.13 Unsubscribe
5.14 Tempt them back into the mainstream of usenet
5.15 Reclaim Troll threads
5.16 Retromoderation
6. Why do they do it?
6.1 The Infant or Attention Seeker theory
6.2 The retired bitter old person theory.
6.3 The insane person theory.
6.4 The just evil theory.
6.5 The sad git theory.
6.6 The loser theory.
7. Definitions
7.1 Target Newsgroup
7.2 Sub Target newsgroup(s)
7.3 Old Target newsgroup(s)
7.4 Troll communications newsgroup(s).
7.5 Sockpuppet
7.6 Morphed Identity
7.7 Morphed Subject
7.8 K00k or kook
8 Links
9 Disclaimer
------------------------------
Subject: 3. What is a troll?
There are four basic types of Troll.
------------------------------
Subject: 3.1 The old definition
The old definition of a Troll is one who posts to generate
the maximum number of follow ups. These are a very minor
irritation, and can be considered to be advantageous to
newsgroups.
------------------------------
Subject: 3.2 The Irritating Troll
Some merely post drivel, or tirades against netnannies and
netcops, often at a BI of over 20. In general they cause
little real damage to newsgroups.
------------------------------
Subject: 3.3 The destructive Troll
In about the year 1999 a new breed of Troll appeared who
have the declared intention of destroying a specific Target
newsgroup. This is done by a variety of posts, (see
Section 4) intended to drive normal posters away from the
specific newsgroup.
When the percentage of Troll posts, including followups
exceeds about 75% of the total posts, most readers seem to
just give up and unsubscribe. Usenet, and particularly the
uk.local.* hierarchy is for most users a hobby and if that
hobby ceases to be enjoyable, the obvious answer is just to
find another hobby.
Once a specific Target newsgroup has been laid waste as
was uk.local.birmingham it becomes a Old Target newsgroup,
This happened in about February 2000 it is being maintained a
wasteground by crossposts from the current Target ng.
Alt.astrology.metapsych at the time of writing is totally
destroyed by destructive trolls. This is repported at:
http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/abusive_ISPs_list.htm
Here is a useful FAQ that explains what has happened to
the group I created alt.astrology.metapsych:
http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killfile/anti_troll_faq.htm
<<<
------------------------------
Subject: 3.4 The nasty Troll
If anyone does anything which will interfere with the
troll's ability to cause mayhem, they can become very
nasty, posting from obviously incorrect variations of the
name etc. insults, call them netcops, netnannies,
homosexuals.
Various off usenet methods are also used to force the
victim to stop posting: Subscribing the victim to hundreds
of unwanted pornographic email newsletters, and sites.
Complaining to employers about non existent misdemeanours.
Sending garbage emails without indication of sender.
Telephone calls at dead of night. Harassing the close
relatives of victims.
------------------------------
Subject: 3.5 The evil and illegal Troll
If anyone does anything which will interfere with the
troll's ability to cause mayhem, they also forge posts in
that persons name and internet address and libel them on
usenet. Both these are illegal.
------------------------------
Subject: 3.6 How they are organised
They use private listservers to communicate between
themselves. An archive of one such listserver is at
http://www.uklocaltrolls.fs2.com. For less important
communications, they use Troll Communications newsgroup(s).
The listserver must have an owner(s) who can approve or
deny access. Other than that anarchy reigns where each
member does what he/she thinks fit. Thus because no leader
or committee exists coordination with the group is
impossible. Any agreement reached with one or more can
instantly be abrogated by others.
Coordinated action can occur where it forwards their
general aims.
------------------------------
Subject: 4. What do they do?
There are several quite formalised methods of trolling.
Non of these actions occurring singly or in moderation
indicate a troll attack. When they occur in combination or
large amounts they may indicate a troll attack.
------------------------------
Subject: 4.1 Drivel
Posts without interesting content are simple to produce.
Cascades have a long history on usenet, usually containing
wordplays round a specific theme. The Trolls version is a
cascade of drivel. two persons working online to the same
newsserver can throw a thread between themselves and create
very large numbers of posts. One person can throw a thread
between two or more sockpuppets.
------------------------------
Subject: 4.2 The crosspost Troll
This is perhaps the most effective Troll in that it
produces large numbers of posts with little effort from the
Troll. An inflammatory post is made to a group of Sub
Target newsgroups, say cooking, politics or guns. The
Target Newsgroup is included in the ng list. The innocent
posters to the Sub Target newsgroup continue to discuss
this in the normal way without noticing that the posts are
also going to the Target Newsgroup.
This is commonly combined with The Request for Assistance
troll
------------------------------
Subject: 4.3 The Request for Assistance.
This is similar to The crosspost Troll but it is
crossposted to Troll Communications newsgroup(s). Thus any
Troll subscribed to a Troll Communications Newsgroup(s),
may troll newsgroups to which he/she is not subscribed.
An example <snipped> where uk.local.yorkshire is the
Target newsgroup is:
From: "Sharon Thorman" <Sha...@hotmail.net>
Newsgroups: alt.golf.perfect-impact,alt.fan.karl-malden.nose,
alt.alien.vampire.flonk.flonk.flonk,alt.redheads,
england.chat,uk.local.yorkshire,soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm,
alt.pro-wrestling.wwf
Subject: Re: Troll Owned and Operated
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 10:36:57 -0400
Organization: Altopia Corp. - Usenet Access -
http://www.altopia.com
Message-ID: <akinab$qo...@pita.alt.net>
References: <1e75b4dd9bc46d05f93670d9bf359...@xganon.com>
xganon <remai...@xganon.com> wrote in message
news:1e75b4dd9bc46d05...@xganon.com...
> Please add alt.golf.perfect-impact to all x-poastes.
> We need traffic to be eligible for valuable prizes.
<<<
It is commonly combined with The crosspost Troll
------------------------------
Subject: 4.4 General nastiness
The Target newsgroup is flooded with nastiness, name
calling and swearing, and flame wars, mostly between
themselves. This can be a great off put to new
subscribers.
An interesting variation is for one of their number
purports to object to swearing, while encouraging others,
off newsgroup, in the practice.
------------------------------
Subject: 4.5 Personal attacks on individuals and groups.
Selected individuals are subjected to quite vicious
personal attacks throughout usenet. Examples are: "fucks
animals!" "is a cannibal" "is a hermaphrodite!" "is a
molester of boys" "in panties gets fucked up the arse" "is
a Nazi!" "is a cocksucking queer" "is a hermaphrodite just
like Maryanne Kehoe" "molests boys on American Airlines"
"Sexually harassed by" "is an anthrax pervert" "AT GAY
PARTY" "sucks his father's cock" "is a pervert" "hated
wherever he goes!" "White Racist" "Usenet spammer!" "Usenet
k00k!" "I hope you die SOON".
As will be seen several of these are libelous, and
thus illegal
Groups such as the regular posters are attacked similarly,
------------------------------
Subject: 4.6 Forgeries
They regularly forge the identities of posters who they do
not like. This can vary from badly spelled versions of
their name and/or email address, to forgeries which the
average reader would not be able to detect.
At times this can reach a bizarre condition where they
troll using a forged identity at a Breidbart Index of well
over 20. They then at every opportunity call the victim a
troll.
Larting the offender is often effective because ISPs recognise
the seriousness of this offence.
Where Forgery is done via an anonymous remailer complaints
to abuse@thelastremailerinthechain may well be effective.
The remailers administrators do not like their facilities
being misused, and have ways of combatting this. It is
also worth registering with
http://www.paracrypt.com/remailerabuse/
------------------------------
Subject: 4.7 Setting X-No-Archive: Yes
There are several usenet archive sites where posts are kept
for ever. If one is doing something underhand, illegal, or
very nasty, it is an advantage to do the dirty deed, create
mayhem, and then let all evidence disappear when the servers
delete the posts when they are 7 days old or whatever limit
is set on that server.
This can be compared with a town centre with CCTV cameras,
where the vandals begin a systematic to trashing of an area
by disabling the CCTV system.
When combined with other practises in this section X-
No-Archive: Yes can be particularly damaging.
------------------------------
Subject: 4.8 On Topic Trolls
A bizzare troll post has emerged where On Topic posts are
used to troll a newsgroup.
There is a WWW site which contains out of copyright
Yorkshire Dialect poetry and readings. This site has
been copied and each poen individually posted to
uk.local.yorkshire in a single day.
This is very irritating but disobeys no ISP or Usenet
rule.
Several other vareiants of this troll have been seen.
------------------------------
Subject: 4.9 Disrupting usenet
Usenet and its procedures were designed in the days when
usenet was a group of likeminded organisations and
individuals, working together to create a worthwhile whole.
It was not designed to withstand sustained attack by those
intent on destroying usenet.
The Trolls disrupting usenet by using the holes in existing
rules to harm usenet. This is normally done in the
*.config and *.management newsgroups.
------------------------------
Subject: 4.10 Hipcrime
This is a program which splits a large file into sections
and creates an individual post from each section. It also
has other functions, not relevant here.
On one particular night they posted 1700+ posts a total of
30Mbytes+. On another ocasion they posted many identical
copies of freeware programs each copy being more than
100kBytes long.
------------------------------
Subject: 4.11 They read newsgroups
That they read newsgroups is on the face of it obvious.
They are thus privy to any discussions about
countermeasures. It is clear that they adjust what they do
to reduce the effect of countermeasures, and further their
general aims.
------------------------------
Subject: 4.12 Generate splits among subscribers.
Any tensions within a newsgroup are deliberately increased.
------------------------------
Subject: 4.13 Bullying
The Trolls often demand the right to post anything and
everything to a newsgroup. If anyone or any group opposes
them they threaten to continue, for longer.
------------------------------
Subject: 4.14 Threaten to infect computers with viruses.
They regularly threaten to infect opponents computers with
Viruses and/or Trojans. It is difficult to prove where a
Virus or Trojan originated, so I cannot prove that they have
ever carried out this threat.
Running one of the commercial anti virus programs to
permanently monitor incoming newsgroups, email, etc is
always a Good Thing and to be recommended.
------------------------------
Subject: 5. What can be done about them?
The actions taken by a person, or a group, against Trolls
depends on many factors, technical expertise, personality,
equipment available to name but a few.
Below are listed some possible actions with advantages
(Pro) and disadvantages (Con) given for each.
------------------------------
Subject: 5.1 Ignore them and they will go away.
This is the traditional usenet method of dealing with
Trolls, and is regularly suggested.
It is similar to the method use to train dogs, and very
young children, ignore bad behaviour and reward good
behaviour. Thus it is only likely to work if the, The Infant
or Attention Seeker theory, is true
Pro:
If you are subscribed to a Sub Target newsgroup this is
quite a reasonable method. The normal change of Sub
Targets will ensure that they do "go away", convincing you
that this is an effective way of dealing with the problem.
It however leaves the Target newsgroup in exactly the same
mess as it was before.
If you are confronted with a minor attack by merely
Irritating Trolls, or inexperienced and disorganized Trolls,
this may also work.
Con:
If you are subscribed to a Target newsgroup, this is
impossible, as up to 90% of posts may be trolls. As the
Intension is to destroy the Target Newsgroup, they will
*never* go away.
On any newsgroup there are a mixture of subscribers, non of
whom has any ability to control the postings of other
subscribers. Human nature dictates that someone will
*always* reply to a good troll. Arguably this section
should be headed "If *everyone* ignores them and they will
go away." which is arguably impossible to attain.
In the case of uly after a full week of almost total
ignoring of a specific troll made him so angry that he
invited in other trolls. After that a massive and damaging
attack began.
uk.local.yorkshire contained this telling sentence.
> Most people like the countryside, but not everyone is
> willing to tread shin deep through pig shit to get
> to a meadow.
------------------------------
Subject: 5.2 Use a Killfile
There is a killfile FAQ at
http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killfile giving information
about how to use killfile facilities many newsreaders.
Almost all newsreaders will kill individual threads and/or
posters. Some have more complex, and wide ranging facilities.
Pro:
One only sees posts from each thread, or by each Troll,
Sockpuppet or morphed identity a few times to determine the
true nature of the poster.
Con:
You might miss something important, such as a libel against
oneself. However an important post will usually start a
thread and you may well see someone else's follow ups.
It takes quite a bit of effort, and knowledge for someone
subscribed to a Target newsgroup to maintain a killfile.
For someone subscribed to a Sub Target maintaining the
killfile is easy, and recommended.
Very few posters know of the existence of killfile
facilities, and some cannot handle them when pointed out.
The old hands on usenet can not understand why newbies
cannot do what the old hands find so simple.
Even very technically savvy, usenet hands are often
unwilling to subscribe to the Target newsgroup. The hard
grind of keeping the killfile working may be considered
more bother than the subscription is worth.
------------------------------
Subject: 5.3 A moderated newsgroup
A Moderated newsgroup is almost impossible to troll.
misc.kids a newsgroup for parents and carers for kids,
rather than the kids themselves, had trolling problems as
recorded in http://www.misckids.org/history.txt
>>> The misc.kids.moderated effort began sometime in the
summer of 1996, when a regular poster to misc.kids, Roger
Hunt, suggested to the newsgroup, as well as others who were
former regular posters, that we establish a moderated
alternative to misc.kids. This time, unlike previous
occasions when this type of suggestion was made, many people
seized upon the idea. Misc.kids had suffered several troll
invasions; many regular and trusted posters had left; and
the level of discourse had declined. Colleen Porter did a
straw poll on some issues related to creating a new
newsgroup and got 199 responses. Those responses have been
thoughtfully considered throughout this creation process and
form the basis for much of what appears in the RFD. <<<
Towards the end of 1997 misc.kids.moderated was created
see: http://www.misckids.org/
After the creation of misc.kids.moderated the level of
_destructive_ trolling of misc.kids fell drastically. At
the time of writing, misc.kids.moderated is a small but
thriving newsgroup, also misc.kids is a large newsgroup, but
riven by On Topic disputes. On a superficial examination it
could be concluded that the creation of mkm was a waste of
time and effort, because mk now has only minor problems. On
a deeper examination, it could be concluded that the
existence of mkm protects mk from the worst of the outright
trolling, presumably because in the case of drastic
problems, subscribers could move to mkm.
Pro:
It works and is a traditional usenet method of solving the
problems of troublesome newsgroups.
Con:
It requires a permanently on line machine. It requires a
moderbot to handle much of the work. It requires a team of
moderators ideally about six to handle posts which the
moderbot does not approve. It requires a very well written
charter, with specific moderation guidelines, otherwise
the moderators will end up accepting or rejecting posts on
personal preference. The Trolls will try to become
moderators, and cause mayhem. Changing from a non moderated
to a moderated newsgroup is *extremely* difficult. A new
newsgroup with the same name but .moderated would normally
have to be created. This would need an RFD and vote in the
uk.* hierarchy, if that is where the newsgroup is to be
situated.
------------------------------
Subject: 5.4 A purely robomoderated newsgroup
A purely automatic moderation system which will reject all
crossposting. Also limit the number of posts which can be
made by a single poster in a day, and similar problems.
This is being discussed at the time of writing on
uk.net.news.config subject: RFD: uk.net.news.beginners
Pro:
It might work, or at least improve matters.
Con:
It requires a permanently on line machine.
It requires a very well written charter, with specific
moderation guidelines,
Changing from a non moderated to a moderated newsgroup is
*extremely* difficult.
A new newsgroup with the same name but .moderated would
have to be created.
This would need an RFD and vote in the uk.* hierarchy.
Nobody knows how well it would withstand an onslaught by
determined and well organised Trolls.
------------------------------
Subject: 5.5 A Yahoo Group Listserver
If things get too rough the existing group of posters could
move to an invitation only Yahoo Group, or a UK Yahoo
group. This has been done successfully with
uk.local.yorkshire where most of the posters have moved to
Tykesground.
Pro:
The Trolls can be effectively kept out.
The group of reasonable posters is kept together.
Con:
Yahoo posts do not thread as usenet posts, on some
newsreaders. The list owner is Ghod. He/she must be
trusted, and treat the group with a light hand. People get
bored, lose Internet access, die and so on, and thus
unsubscribe. In the longer term, new recruits must be
found or the group will wither and die.
The Trolls have effectively won, and the newsgroup will
probably wither and die.
The Trolls hate it and treat the Yahoo group as an affront
to the their ability to control the Target Newsgroup. They
will fight harder, and *never* go away.
------------------------------
Subject: 5.6 Cancel posts
Traditionally posts which exceed a Breidbart Index of 20 or
any of the other usenet rules may be cancelled.
For unix users, there is a system NoCeM which lists posts
with a BI above 20, and prevents you from downloading them.
Pro:
It gets rid of offending posts.
The Trolls hate it.
For forgeries of oneself there is good justification for
cancellation.
Con:
Cancelling other peoples posts is not for the uninitiated.
Cancellation does not work on all newsservers. It must be
done quickly, or it is not worth doing. The posts get to
the users machine where cancellation has no effect, harm is
done before the canceller sees the post.
Most troll posts are not strictly against the usenet rules
and guidelines. In these cases, it is difficult to justify
cancellation.
------------------------------
Subject: 5.7 LART (report to ISP)
Where a Troll breaks the rules of usenet or their ISP an
email or "LART" to abuse@ISP,name will often persuade the
ISP, newsserver operator, or their upstream providers to
cancel a users account.
Pro:
It often works. It is traditional usenet practice.
Con:
Free ISPs are ten a penny, and the Troll can easily get
another account and continue as before.
Some Trolls can have several paid for internet accounts.
Some of the worst trolls take care not to break their ISPs
Terms and Conditions, or usenet rules. ISPs are reluctant
to act without evidence of an offence.
------------------------------
Subject: 5.8 Trim the newsgroup line
With the crossposting Trolls one can follow up the posts
asking only those in the Sub Target newsgroups to trim the
newsgroup line, when following up. Remember not to ask the
Troll Communications newsgroups to trim the newsgroup line.
Pro:
It reduces the inadvertent crossposts by up to 90%
Con:
The Trolls notice that it has been done, and replace the
crossposts.
Newbies, do not have a clue, and ask what on earth you are
talking about.
------------------------------
Subject: 5.9 Give them a good (virtual) st*ff*ng.
This is the preferred method on uk.rec.motorcycles, a robust
newsgroup.
Pro:
It is very satisfying.
Con:
Some would say that it makes things worse because it gives
them the attention which they crave.
At best it becomes a war of attrition. In the Target
newsgroups there is nothing to loose, so one might as well
try to wear them down.
------------------------------
Subject: 5.10 Follow up the offending posts.
It is always possible to follow up troll posts.
Pro:
For forgeries of posts in your name, and libelous posts, A
follow up is an effective rejoinder, because of the
ineffectiveness of Cancel posts.
For The Crosspost Troll, warning the Sub Target
newsgroup(s) of the list of crosspostings, is effective in
reducing the damage.
For The Request for Assistance Troll, only the Target
Newsgroup and the Troll communications newsgroup(s) will
see the followup so they are not effective.
For combined Crosspost Troll combined with a Request for
Asistance Troll, only the Sub Target newsgroups should be
warned.
Con:
In general just following up is not a good idea.
------------------------------
Subject: 5.11 Digitally Sign Posts with PGP.
If forgery is a problem, one can sign posts with Pretty
Good Privacy. This is free for non commercial use and may
be found at http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html. There are
USA and Non USA versions available. Non USA users should
ensure that they get the non USA version.
This does not stop the forgeries, but does allow the reader
to check if a post comes from the person it appears to come
from.
Continuous surveillance of incoming email etc. for viruses
and trojans is essential for those using a PGP sig. If
your machine becomes infected with a backdoor trojan the
digital sig may be compromised.
------------------------------
Subject: 5.12 Continue posting On Topic posts to the
newsgroup.
Those who find themselves subscribed to a Target Newsgroup,
can agree amongst themselves that they will not be driven
away by the Trolls. If they just keep on posting On Topic
posts, the Trolls can never totally win. Better, new
subscribers will find something interesting to read amongst
the dross, and filth.
If someone includes the URL for the killfile FAQ
http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killfile in a sig, and
perhaps posts the whole thing weekly, new subscribers will
learn very quickly how to use killfiles, and so not see the
trolls.
------------------------------
Subject: 5.13 Unsubscribe
When a ng is troubled by trolls it is always possible to
just unsubscribe.
Pro:
>From a purely selfish point of view this is by far the
easiest thing to do. You can happily transfer your
subscriptions to less troubled ngs. Problem solved!
Con:
>From the point of view of usenet as a whole, it is
absolutely the worst possible course of action. Whether the
trolls are the infantile kind with a strange sense of fun,
or the evil kind intent on destruction, the result will be
the same. No On Topic posts, lots of ridiculous troll posts,
dead newsgroup.
This is what happened to uk.local.birmingham, when a group
of reasonable posters including Iain Bowen just
unsubscribed. It has never recovered.
------------------------------
Subject: 5.14 Tempt them back into the mainstream of usenet
Trolls sometimes post reasonable things, these can be
followed up
Pro:
It may improve matters.
Con:
Those who believe in a strict "ignore them" policy
will not use this.
------------------------------
Subject: 5.15 Reclaim Troll threads
There is sometimes a small point of general interest in
troll posts. Careful snipping and follow ups can create
interesting threads.
Pro:
It irritates the Trolls.
Con:
Reasonable posters may already have killed the threads
------------------------------
Subject: 5.16 Retromoderation
Two forms of retromoderation already exists on usenet, namely:
Spam canceling. This function is not automatic at the
time of writing. Spam is *detected* automatically but the
canceling is done manually by volunteers.
Also binaries, except tiny ones, posted to text newsgroups
are automatically cancelled.
It would be possible to write scripts which would
automatically detect and cancel posts to any specific
newsgroup or newsgroups which contravene some parts of the
newsgroup charter.
Examples would be excessive crossposting, and perhaps
hipcrime attacks.
Pro:
It may be effective against crossposting
Con:
Most Troll activities could not be reliably detected
automatically. A human retromoderator would have great
difficulty determining exactly if a specific post was
to be cancelled.
Retromoderation is intensely disliked by usenet generally.
The Troll communications newsgroup(s) used changes rapidly
It would be impossible to list, Troll communications
newsgroup(s), in a charter because the trolls would just use
a different newsgroup.
------------------------------
Subject: 6. Why do they do it?
No one knows why the Trolls act as they do, but there are
several theories. Clearly an individual Troll may be in
one, or several of these groups, or indeed in none at all.
It is difficult to believe, but possible, that a totally
normal person would become a Troll.
------------------------------
Subject: 6.1 The Infant or Attention Seeker theory
Some believe that the trolls are just adults who brains and
morals have not developed beyond childhood, and they are
just behaving as attention seeking children.
------------------------------
Subject: 6.2 The retired bitter old person theory.
There is evidence that some Trolls are retired persons,
with a good pension and little to do with their lives.
They may have suffered a personal loss such as the death of
a much loved spouse which warped their outlook on life.
This type is particularly dangerous, because they may have
ample funds to buy computer equipment, own multiple domain
names, and multiple access to the internet. Worse they
may have, say 8 hour per day to invest in their "hobby".
------------------------------
Subject: 6.3 The insane person theory.
Some Trolls may be clinically insane, indeed one posts as
Mogadon John which may indicate that he/she is taking this
*major* tranquiliser, or it may just be a joke.
------------------------------
Subject: 6.4 The just evil theory.
There are people in this world who enjoy destruction. Some
enjoy murdering children. Some enjoy sexually abusing
children. Some Trolls may be in a similar category.
------------------------------
Subject: 6.5 The sad git theory.
There are unfortunately people with such restricted lives
that they cannot think of anything useful or constructive
to do with the powerful and expensive kit which they are
using.
------------------------------
Subject: 6.6 The loser theory.
This theory is that the Trolls are just losers who cannot
succeed in anything in their real lives. They can however
disrupt usenet with relative impunity.
------------------------------
Subject: 7. Definitions
Some of the terms used may not be familiar to all readers,
and indeed I have been forced to invent some definitions.
------------------------------
Subject: 7.1 Target Newsgroup(s)
The newsgroup(s) which they are attempting to destroy, at
the time of writing, May 2002, two are uk.local.yorkshire
and comp.os.linux.advocacy (thanks to mjcr)
------------------------------
Subject: 7.2 Sub Target newsgroup(s)
The newsgroups(s) which they are using to flood the target
newsgroup with Off Topic posts. These are continuously
changed, examples are the cooking newsgroups, the guns
newsgroups, and the political newsgroups. All of which may
be relied upon to follow up inflammatory posts which are on
topic to them, but off topic to the Target newsgroup.
------------------------------
Subject: 7.3 Old Target newsgroup(s)
The newsgroup(s) which have been made into a wasteground by
the Trolls, and are being maintained so by using crossposts
from the target newsgroups. At the time of writing, end
2001, one is uk.local.birmingham.
------------------------------
Subject: 7.4 Troll communications newsgroup(s).
These are ngs used by the trolls for non important
communications, such as the Request for Assistance. Typical
ones are alt.troll, alt.alien.vampire.flonk.flonk.flonk,
alt.fan.karl- malden.nose, alt.hackers.malicious. If a
troll is subscribed to one of these he/she may assist in
trolling many Target newsgroups, using the request for
assistance troll. The ngs used for this purpose change
regularly.
------------------------------
Subject: 7.5 Sockpuppet
A Sockpuppet is when a poster has several usenet identities,
either just different names and email addresses from a single
account. Alternatively several email identities with valid email
addresses and email accounts.
------------------------------
Subject: 7.6 Morphed Identity
A morphed identity is when a poster has one usenet identity,
which changes in detail, to outwit killfiles. For instance the
name may remain the same and the email address change, or the
name and/or email address may contain accented characters which
are changed for different versions of the same letter.
------------------------------
Subject: 7.7 Morphed Subject:
A morphed Subject: is when a poster changes the subject
line, in some visually insignificant way in the middle of a
thread to outwit killfiles set to that thread.
------------------------------
Subject: 7.8 K00k or kook
A general insult used by Trolls.
One who displeases or opposes Trolls
------------------------------
Subject: 8. Links
Using a search engine such as http://www.google.com/ is the
best way to obtain up to date information on Trolls, but some
worthwhile links are included here.
net-abuse-faq/troll-faq
URL: http://ddi.digital.net/~gandalf/trollfaq.html
net-abuse-faq/spam-faq
URL: http://ddi.digital.net/~gandalf/spamfaq.html
Google Usenet and Bulletin Board Abuse
URL:
http://directory.google.com/Top/Computers/Internet/Abuse/Usenet_and_B...
Spam-L FAQ
URL: http://www.claws-and-paws.com/spam-l/resources.html
The Art of Lart
http://web.thock.com/lart/
Haradlurson
Good tip!
"Tombstonetales" <tombston...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1112982597....@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Joe Bloggs
news:uBB5e.931193$8l.726680@pd7tw1no...
> So what you are saying is that we should put you in our killfile?
>
> Good tip!
Yep, Stonehead is a moron.
John
<tombston...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Thanks to Dave for this
>
>
>Dealing with trolls
>
>
>Subject: 1. Introduction and Intent
>
>
>This FAQ describes what a Troll is, what they do, what can be
>done about them, together with some suggestions as to why they do
>may it. Other FAQs on similar subjects, have not covered the
>?philosophy? and ?organization? behind this phenomena, and have
>not covered the intent of destruction which is now evident.
Interesting stuff and I guess that about wraps it up for the group
really; it is already clear that posts are drying up.
There an interesting comparison with terrorist attacks here. I
remember hearing someone say that in a free and open society
terrorists will always get through if they have the desire.
Non-moderated newsgroups who's only rules are Netiquette were not
designed to and cannot sustain the sort of tactics described.
Where there are trolls with the time and the inclination to flood and
attack as we have seen here, their strategy can only succeed and the
result is almost inevitable.
In which case trolling hardly seems like a challenge at all and the
victory appears to be a hollow one. Perhaps, like graffiti around
towns, the fad will move on as new generations don't find it as
interesting or challenging.
--
John
Myron lronhubbardisanut@fastmail.to
> really; it is already clear that posts are drying up.
You are Tombstonetales, you posted the FAQ Mr Humberstone. Your
behaviour on alt.religion.islam is trolling _par excellence_.
> There an interesting comparison with terrorist attacks here.
Yes of course there is Mr Dumberstone. Powerful and insightful
analogy. You are are low-wattage ISO 9000 bureaucrat aren't you?
> I
> remember hearing someone say that in a free and open society
> terrorists will always get through if they have the desire.
You're a moron.
> Non-moderated newsgroups who's only rules are Netiquette were not
> designed to and cannot sustain the sort of tactics described.
Where preciely do you see these tactics?
> Where there are trolls with the time and the inclination to flood and
> attack as we have seen here, their strategy can only succeed and the
> result is almost inevitable.
Dissent and criticism may be unpalatable to you and other NLP morons
but they are distinct from trollng.
> In which case trolling hardly seems like a challenge at all and the
> victory appears to be a hollow one. Perhaps, like graffiti around
> towns, the fad will move on as new generations don't find it as
> interesting or challenging.
Are you referring to your trolling on alt.religion.islam? Aren't
you being a hypocrite of the highest order? You've been caught with
your pants down Mr Dumberstone that's why you changed your email
address (to prevent your Muslim-baiting posts from get picked up
by the per poster indexer Google function).
I'm not going anywhere. I will continue to express a dissenting
and critical opinion (with substantiation). Judging from the
feedback I have received this is long overdue.
A critical opinion regarding NLP (and the "Bandler Technologies") is
100% on-topic on an NLP forum.
> John
John Humberstone.
-Myron
Tombstonetales
I have had numerous private e-mails about these two trolls and it seems
that this is not the only newsgroup they have sought to disrupt, there
are others as well...
Most NLPers are now on the NLP on topic ng and engaging in intelligent
debate!
UnKaH
Intelligent and NLP'ers should not be used in the same sentence. If
disrupting means exposing the scum sucking fuckers who prey on the weak
minded, then count me in.
If disrupting means telling the truth and exposing the lies generated
into marketing hype, then again count me in.
Let me use Altfield as an example, can you answer a few simple
questions?
Altfield, Are you or are you not a NLP certified trainer?
Can you provide NLP practionerss certificates to your students?
Have you paid everyone you co-trained with?
Did you or did you not attempt to cheat on your wife using a really bad
fake british accent?
These are all legitimate questions that should be asked of him. I
fucken dare him to come answer any of these questions, then let's ask
Lavelle if any of it is true, if he posts an answer of no to any of the
above questions.
If these are the standards which the NLP community is accustomed to,
and allows, then shame on you.
This does not negate or lessen NLP, it is just that scum sucking fat
fucking pigs like him are allowed to run amok.
You NLP'ers need to start policing your trainers and start moving
people away from those fuckers, because all it will do is sour people
on NLP.
So again, if disrupting means exposing those whom prey on the masses
count me in.
Tombstone dick in your tale, show me some posts from the nlp'ers where
intelligent discussion is taking place!!!!!!
Tim
Myron lronhubbardisanut@fastmail.to
> I have had numerous private e-mails about these two trolls
Bullshit. That is unless we exclude emails you may be sending to
yourself, John.
> and it seems
> that this is not the only newsgroup they have sought to disrupt,
there
> are others as well...
Go on then list them. This is akin to your lies about Bloggs and I
being
ex-Scientologists. You're a lying, gray-haired, po-faced pommy cunt.
> Most NLPers are now on the NLP on topic ng and engaging in
intelligent
> debate!
Hahahahahahahahahaha! You're a twat Humbertone. You couldn't
recognise
intelligent debate if your life dependended on it. Is baiting Muslims
an example of "intelligent debate"? Is using sock-puppets that engage
in dialogue with each other "intelligent debate"?
-Myron
Victor
<lronhubb...@fastmail.to> wrote in message
news:1113049014.3...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > Interesting stuff and I guess that about wraps it up for the group
> > really; it is already clear that posts are drying up.
>
> You are Tombstonetales, you posted the FAQ Mr Humberstone. Your
> behaviour on alt.religion.islam is trolling _par excellence_.
>
> > There an interesting comparison with terrorist attacks here.
>
> Yes of course there is Mr Dumberstone. Powerful and insightful
> analogy. You are are low-wattage ISO 9000 bureaucrat aren't you?
Myron is a lonely little loser.
>
> > I
> > remember hearing someone say that in a free and open society
> > terrorists will always get through if they have the desire.
>
> You're a moron.
Myron is a lonely little loser.
>
> > Non-moderated newsgroups who's only rules are Netiquette were not
> > designed to and cannot sustain the sort of tactics described.
>
> Where preciely do you see these tactics?
Myron is a lonely little loser.
>
> > Where there are trolls with the time and the inclination to flood and
> > attack as we have seen here, their strategy can only succeed and the
> > result is almost inevitable.
>
> Dissent and criticism may be unpalatable to you and other NLP morons
> but they are distinct from trollng.
Myron is a lonely little loser.
Myron lronhubbardisanut@fastmail.to
"This seems to be the real deal. The heart of this seems to be that all
psychic success is based upon self-control:
http://www.CompellingPower.com
It's psychic ability disguised as persuasion and confidence, but he
comes
right out and talks about non-verbal hypnosis, in the lessons. He seems
to
think it's all the same, and after three days I believe him.
It was a bit pricey for me but the material is amazing. Many people are
saying he's legit."
(http://tinyurl.com/452b9)
Tool.
Also, you're TV viewing appears excessive.
-Myron
Myron lronhubbardisanut@fastmail.to
My apologies dickhead that should be "your" not "you're".
The epitome of the herd mentality: "Many people are saying he's
legit."
Then he must be legit huh? Do you regard yourself as intelligent?
Isn't watching a drama series and then logging in to Usenet to share
your idiotic opinions with other idiots the height of capital-'l' loser
activity?
Isn't living your life vicariously through the characters of West Wing
pathetic?
-Myron
Greg Alexander
> This does not negate or lessen NLP, it is just that scum
> sucking fat fucking pigs like him are allowed to run amok.
So you don't have a problem with NLP, just some of the
people using it?
You presuppose there is someone "allowing" people to do things?
> If disrupting means telling the truth and exposing the lies
> generated into marketing hype, then again count me in.
> If disrupting means exposing the scum sucking fuckers
> who prey on the weak minded, then count me in.
Cool, Can I ask what's your intention?
if you want to help people identify ways of getting quality training
I'm there with you all the way.
Is that your intention?
> You NLP'ers need to start policing your trainers and start
> moving people away from those fuckers, because all it will
> do is sour people on NLP.
There are good trainers and bad trainers, and of course the bad
trainers will bring NLP discredit. It'd be great to have a quality
control mechanism to boost up quality trainings and trainers - not sure
how you propose it be done though, how would you do it?
> Intelligent and NLP'ers should not be used in the same sentence.
Sorry Tim, I thought you said your problem was with the marketing and
individuals?
> Altfield, Are you or are you not a NLP certified trainer?
AFAIK, "NLP Certified Trainers" are a qualification from the SNLP and
largely Bandler based? (Can someone confirm this or correct me please?)
If so, do you want a trainer who works to their own standards, or
conforms with Bandler's? My understanding is that you don't like
Bandler.
(By the way, I know Christina Hall is involved with the SNLP in some
way and I found her training of high quality - so I could easily be
wrong here)
> If these are the standards which the NLP community is accustomed
> to, and allows, then shame on you.
What NLP community is that, and how can they enforce standards to allow
something or not?
> So again, if disrupting means exposing those whom prey on the
> masses count me in.
Tim, my main question to you again, simply what's your positive
intention for that?
Greg
UnKaH
wannabe trainers. That should be very clear by my posts.
>You presuppose there is someone "allowing" people to do >things?
Well in the simplest terms, those who stand by and do nothing are as
guilty as those perpetuating the fraud.
When questions are constantly asked, what are your qualifications, and
those certain trainers can not produce documents which show they are
trainer certified and can not give the students certification, then one
has to ask what the fuck.
>Cool, Can I ask what's your intention?
>if you want to help people identify ways of getting quality >training.
I'm there with you all the way.
My intent is to side with Joe and Myron to expose those who would
perpetuate bullshit, and make a profit off of it.
No matter who they are. ie, DHE has been called into the playing field
more than once about weather it is valid or not.
So far not one single person has stepped up and provided any useful
content of, how it works, the goals, and out comes.
Farther is exposed the truth about the creator of this discipline.
If this is such a great technology, why is Bandler sick? Why is he fat?
Why did he have to resort to cocaine? Why was he associated with known
criminals and gone to trial over a murder charge?
Since there was, in fact, no one who came forth with any kind of
credible evidence for DHE and given the creator of DHE's history, what
then, must one conclude?
If we were in a court of law and the jury, given the evidence, which is
posted time after time on this NG about weather DHE was in fact a
discipline worthy of consideration, I do believe the jury would not
have to be out to long to conclude the obvious.
>> Intelligent and NLP'ers should not be used in the same sentence.
It was meant to be a sarcastic joke much like, Army Intelligence is an
oxymoron.
>If so, do you want a trainer who works to their own standards, >or
conforms with Bandler's? My understanding is that you >don't like
Bandler.
I want neither, because I do believe that from what I know now, that
NLP is a waste of time and money, while there are a few good things
which can be gained, it can be gotten from a book which is much more
cost effective than spending large amounts of money on a training.
My main intention is for people to know the real deal about many of the
mother fuckers who post to this NG, and not to waste their time and
money like I did. I often have to wonder why people have to keep going
back to the DHE seminars.
Tom and I discussed this today, but we were talking about
enlightenment, which actually falls in the same category.
When people become enlightened, they can not tell you what "it" is, the
simple explanation is, you'll know it. But that is a bunch of bullshit,
that just keeps them coming back so they can get "it", but they will
never get it because there is nothing to get.
Tim
Greg Alexander
> I have a problem with NLP ( some aspects of it ) and some trainers,
> or wannabe trainers. That should be very clear by my posts.
Really!?
;-)
> >You presuppose there is someone "allowing" people to do
> >things?
>
> Well in the simplest terms, those who stand by and do nothing
> are as guilty as those perpetuating the fraud.
This question raises several issues.
Firstly, who specifically believes there is a fraud?
Does this person have proof?
Is that person capable of doing anything about it?
What are the side-effects of attempting to do something?
Or in other words - if you believe it's your duty to clear out your
neighbours dirty bath water, are you sure it's dirty, and are you
careful not to throw out the baby?
> When questions are constantly asked, what are your qualifications,
> and those certain trainers can not produce documents which show
> they are trainer certified and can not give the students
certification,
> then one has to ask what the fuck.
And you assume there is a central authority for NLP certification.
> >Cool, Can I ask what's your intention?
> >if you want to help people identify ways of getting quality
> >training. I'm there with you all the way.
>
> My intent is to side with Joe and Myron to expose those who
> would perpetuate bullshit, and make a profit off of it.
As you know, nobody is perfect, and that includes Joe and Myron.
Do you draw sides - Joe, Myron and Yourself... against who?
Is it just the bullshitters (whoever they maybe)?
Or do you see yourself against the rest of the group?
And who are you exposing the bullshitters to?
Are you on the same side as those people
> No matter who they are. ie, DHE has been called into the playing
field
> more than once about weather it is valid or not.
It sure has. I frankly wish we could stick with NLP.
> If we were in a court of law and the jury, given the evidence,
> which is posted time after time on this NG about weather
> DHE was in fact a discipline worthy of consideration,
> I do believe the jury would not have to be out to long
> to conclude the obvious.
But if we were in a court of law they would have to make it a fair
trial, admit evidence only if it was considered relevant to the charge,
not badger the witnesses, disregard any hearsay, call in specialists in
the field, give character references, and assume innocent until proven
guilty. In the end that still wouldn't determine if it worked. :)
> >> Intelligent and NLP'ers should not be used in the same
> >> sentence.
>
> It was meant to be a sarcastic joke much like, Army Intelligence
> is an oxymoron.
Ah yes, but does the Army think that's funny?
Would you say that to a mean looking Army guy?
> >If so, do you want a trainer who works to their own standards,
> >or conforms with Bandler's? My understanding is that you
> >don't like Bandler.
>
> I want neither,
Then why do you care if they authenticate their trainer status by
displaying a certificate (and from who?)?
> because I do believe that from what I know now,
> that NLP is a waste of time and money, while there are a few
> good things which can be gained, it can be gotten from a book
> which is much more cost effective than spending large amounts
> of money on a training.
If you believe that, then you wouldn't spend the money on a training, I
can see that.
If you want to convince people of what you believe, it would be useful
to decide if your current way of arguing is convincing as many people
as you could. What do you think?
> My main intention is for people to know the real deal about many of
the
> mother fuckers who post to this NG, and not to waste their time and
> money like I did.
Telling someone and having them hear are different skills. You
obviously had a bad experience with DHE. Your arguments relate to DHE,
yet you throw NLP in the same basket occassionally - do you
differentiate the 2 at all?
You have to decide what's more important - telling people in the way
you do now, or helping others to decide with more facts in front of
them. Are you confident the facts speak for themselves?
You say NLP has some good points but you don't encourage any
exploration of them. If NLP can be learned from a book then you could
tell people some great patterns right here (hell, plenty of books teach
NLP).
I can't say whether your outcome to expose the bullshitters is really
all there is to it. I believe that one of the consequences of your
posting style on this group is for some people to talk about NLP in
other places - which probably isn't saving them any money. I also think
you're smart enough to know the effect of your arguments, which makes
me wonder what you really want.
Greg
Victor
<lronhubb...@fastmail.to> wrote in message
news:1113278250.6...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
:
> > Also, you're TV viewing appears excessive.
> >
> > -Myron
>
> My apologies dickhead that should be "your" not "you're".
My apologies that you can't see past the dick on your head.
>
> The epitome of the herd mentality: "Many people are saying he's legit."
> Then he must be legit huh? Do you regard yourself as intelligent?
I'd answer that, but I you wouldn't understand the answer.
>
> Isn't watching a drama series and then logging in to Usenet to share
> your idiotic opinions with other idiots the height of capital-'l' loser
> activity?
Oh, I'm so pleased that you took the time out of your lonely little life to
check up one me! You must have had great fun, doing your little Google,
checking up on my posts, copying them to this group.
On the other hand, I haven't given YOU a second thought.
> Isn't living your life vicariously through the characters of West Wing
> pathetic?
Isn't your life vicariously pathetic?
>
> -Myron
>
Myron lronhubbardisanut@fastmail.to
>My apologies that you can't see past the dick on your head.
The detective on my head?
>> The epitome of the herd mentality: "Many people are saying he's
legit."
>> Then he must be legit huh? Do you regard yourself as intelligent?
>I'd answer that, but I you wouldn't understand the answer.
"I you" wouldn't understand? Would "I you" not understand because you
can't contruct parseable sentences?
>> Isn't watching a drama series and then logging in to Usenet to share
>> your idiotic opinions with other idiots the height of capital-'l'
loser
>> activity?
>Oh, I'm so pleased that you took the time out of your lonely little
life to
>check up one me! You must have had great fun, doing your little
Google,
>checking up on my posts, copying them to this group.
Yes, it was a scream. Do you have West Wing posters in your bedroom?
Do you
make West Wing dioramas and keep a West WIng scrapbook that you show to
your
friends when you have West Wing slumber parties?
>On the other hand, I haven't given YOU a second thought.
Thoughts are not native to your cranium. I doubt you had a first
thought. Your brain is occupied with the minutiae of a fictional
series and your pointless musings about that fictional series. You are
a
mindless turd. Turn off your TV and read a book you waste of skin.
>> Isn't living your life vicariously through the characters of West
Wing
>> pathetic?
>Isn't your life vicariously pathetic?
Isn't not knowing the meaning of 'vicarious' before using it pathetic?
-Myron
Victor
<lronhubb...@fastmail.to> wrote in message
news:1113358090.7...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >> My apologies dickhead that should be "your" not "you're".
>
> >My apologies that you can't see past the dick on your head.
>
> The detective on my head?
You have the head of a detective? Then give it back, he must be looking for
it.
>
> >> The epitome of the herd mentality: "Many people are saying he's
legit."
> >> Then he must be legit huh? Do you regard yourself as intelligent?
>
> >I'd answer that, but I you wouldn't understand the answer.
>
> "I you" wouldn't understand? Would "I you" not understand because you
> can't contruct parseable sentences?
My, you are easily distracted by minutia!
>
> >> Isn't watching a drama series and then logging in to Usenet to share
> >> your idiotic opinions with other idiots the height of capital-'l' loser
> >> activity?
>
> >Oh, I'm so pleased that you took the time out of your lonely little life
to
> >check up one me! You must have had great fun, doing your little Google,
> >checking up on my posts, copying them to this group.
>
> Yes, it was a scream. Do you have West Wing posters in your bedroom? Do
you
> make West Wing dioramas and keep a West WIng scrapbook that you show to
your
> friends when you have West Wing slumber parties?
You forgot my West Wing jammies.
>
> >On the other hand, I haven't given YOU a second thought.
>
> Thoughts are not native to your cranium. I doubt you had a first
> thought. Your brain is occupied with the minutiae of a fictional
> series and your pointless musings about that fictional series. You are a
> mindless turd. Turn off your TV and read a book you waste of skin.
Myron, piece of advice - if you're looking to get under someone's skin, then
talk about something that they actually CARE about. Here you are, Myron, on
an NLP forum not discussing NLP. And there I am, on the West Wing forum not
discussing the West Wing. Because we share an equal disdain the subjects of
those respective newsgroups.
If I criticized NLP, it wouldn't faze you, would it? So, why do you think I
give a damn about a TV show when I almost never discuss it?
I don't mind you being a troll, Myron, I only mind you being an incompetant
one. Maybe Bandler was a complete loser, but that doesn't mean that someone
like you, couldn't learn from him.
>
> >> Isn't living your life vicariously through the characters of West Wing
> >> pathetic?
>
> >Isn't your life vicariously pathetic?
>
> Isn't not knowing the meaning of 'vicarious' before using it pathetic?
(aw, c'mon, is that the best you can do, Myron?)
Hans Jager
"UnKaH" <monst...@essential-skills.com> schreef in bericht
news:1113290461.4...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Tom and I discussed this today, but we were talking about
> enlightenment, which actually falls in the same category.
> When people become enlightened, they can not tell you what "it" is, the
> simple explanation is, you'll know it. But that is a bunch of bullshit,
> that just keeps them coming back so they can get "it", but they will
> never get it because there is nothing to get.
Yeah, think about what all these gurus are all babbling about. Nothing.
Nothing at all. For hours!
Hans
>
>
> Tim
>
Joe Bloggs
"Victor" <VictorM...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:os2dnQeVvs4...@comcast.com...
>
> <lronhubb...@fastmail.to> wrote in message
> news:1113278250.6...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> :
> > > Also, you're TV viewing appears excessive.
> > >
> > > -Myron
> >
> > My apologies dickhead that should be "your" not "you're".
>
> My apologies that you can't see past the dick on your head.
That would be a 14 year olds response.
> > The epitome of the herd mentality: "Many people are saying he's legit."
> > Then he must be legit huh? Do you regard yourself as intelligent?
>
> I'd answer that, but I you wouldn't understand the answer.
Are you saying you wouldn't understand your own answer? ROTFLMAO, just tape
a sign to your head that reads "I'm a Dumb Shit!"
> > Isn't watching a drama series and then logging in to Usenet to share
> > your idiotic opinions with other idiots the height of capital-'l' loser
> > activity?
>
> Oh, I'm so pleased that you took the time out of your lonely little life
to
> check up one me! You must have had great fun, doing your little Google,
> checking up on my posts, copying them to this group.
So we can all see what a dickhead you really are. The irony of a lonely
loser such as yourself calling someone else the same, lol.
> On the other hand, I haven't given YOU a second thought.
Right after you responded to this posting. Whatever you say...
Joe Bloggs
"Greg Alexander" <gale...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:1113302295.6...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > Well in the simplest terms, those who stand by and do nothing
> > are as guilty as those perpetuating the fraud.
>
> This question raises several issues.
>
> Firstly, who specifically believes there is a fraud?
This is a stupid question that only intends on creating a circular argument.
Why the bullshit Greg?
> Does this person have proof?
Unkah has given his criteria and proof over and over, this is another stupid
question designed to create confusion and
confound the issue that is quite clear in Unkah's postings. Don't be a smart
ass Greg.
> Is that person capable of doing anything about it?
Yes, Unhak is posting about it here on apnlp...that is what he is doing
about it. Why ask another stupid question?
> What are the side-effects of attempting to do something?
Responses from the likes of you, who in a lesser capacity is trying to
distract from the main issues that Unkah is raising. Ok, maybe it's
not as bad as the posts from the likes of James Harris and John
Humberstones, but it's still low on the scale.
> Or in other words - if you believe it's your duty to clear out your
> neighbours dirty bath water, are you sure it's dirty, and are you
> careful not to throw out the baby?
If it were a decision to clean out the bathtub and you were the
baby...well...I guess I'd accept that in some situations you have
to make sacrifices. In other words, there's going to be some casualties, and
if you were one of them...so be it :-)
> > My intent is to side with Joe and Myron to expose those who
> > would perpetuate bullshit, and make a profit off of it.
>
> As you know, nobody is perfect, and that includes Joe and Myron.
> Do you draw sides - Joe, Myron and Yourself... against who?
Another stupid question as this is obvious.
> Is it just the bullshitters (whoever they maybe)?
Yeah, "whoever"...
> Or do you see yourself against the rest of the group?
Why do you care?
> And who are you exposing the bullshitters to?
Another stupid question...obviously to anyone reading this forum, or were
you thinking that perhaps Unkah was hoping that a snippet of his postings
would make the NY Times?
Greg Alexander
Maybe you should reread the side thread. The conversation so far:
Unkah said that bad trainers are allowed to run amok,
I asked who was "allowing them" to run amok,
Unkah said those who allow bad trainers to run amok are as guilty
as them (his words were "as guilty as those perpetuating the fraud")
I asked who, in his opinion, believed there was a fraud.
Joe Bloggs wrote:
> Responses from the likes of you, who in a lesser capacity
> is trying to distract from the main issues that Unkah is
> raising.
Please provide evidence I'm trying to distract from "the main issue".
He's not just talking about certain trainers (which I assume is "the
main issues" you refer to). Tim is accusing people of not doing
something .... and he's not very clear on who he's accusing, or what
they should be doing, and why these specific people should be doing it
(and I wasn't questioning whether or not there is a relevant main
issue).
To put my previous questions another way, if Tim believes I should do
something because someone is doing something wrong, then of course he's
going to have actually convince me there's something wrong - and then
that I can do anything effective about it, and that there are no bad
side effects (AND that it's worth my while). He hasn't done any of
these to my satisfaction - and for him to accuse people of inaction is
a big leap.
Joe, if (as you say) you want to develop critical thinking skills -
part of that is following these kinds of arguments to find the gaps.
> "Greg Alexander" <gale...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> > Or in other words - if you believe it's your duty to clear out
> > your neighbours dirty bath water, are you sure it's dirty,
> > and are you careful not to throw out the baby?
>
> If it were a decision to clean out the bathtub and you were
> the baby...well...I guess I'd accept that in some situations
> you have to make sacrifices.
Sorry I assumed you'd understand what I said, it's a relatively common
turn of phrase.
Then again perhaps you understand it perfectly and spelled out your
position brilliantly, while giving me a complement :)
The phrase "don't throw the baby out with the bath-water" relates the
baby to something of great value. When getting rid of the bad stuff you
need to be careful that you don't get rid of the REALLY VALUABLE thing.
In fact if you were trying to clean up and did lose "the baby" it would
be a terrible loss, the whole exercise would be pointless.
The first priority is keeping the baby, cleaning the water is minor.
Your stated position is to clean the water, who cares if the baby gets
thrown out. You probably didn't mean to say that.
I wonder how that relates to your position on cleaning NLP?
Greg
ps. I also have to thank you for relating me to the REALLY VALUABLE
thing :) even if it was an accident :)
Myron lronhubbardisanut@fastmail.to
think I
>give a damn about a TV show when I almost never discuss it?
This paints you as a real loser then. So your're on the West Wing NG
to socialise? To pass your idle hours? To relieve your loneliness? To
be an arsehole? To find a wife? What the fuck are you on there for?
>I don't mind you being a troll, Myron, I only mind you being an
incompetant
>one. Maybe Bandler was a complete loser, but that doesn't mean that
someone
>like you, couldn't learn from him.
So calling me a "lonely little loser" is your rebuttal of my arguments
on behalf of Bandler?
How am I a troll ?
I have learnt from Bandler. How would I be able to criticize NLP and
DHE if I had no knowledge of them?
Do you have anything worthwhile to offer? Can you refute any of my
arguments? Can you correct any of my understandings of NLP and DHE?
Can you contribute anything of value to a.p.nlp? Or have you decided
to fill the (floppy clown) shoes of John Dumberstone and his circus
sideshow of multiple identities?
Are you volunteering yourself as the next sacrficial lamb? The list is
a long one.
You are "small potatos", a piece of snot on the banister.
-Myron
Victor
<lronhubb...@fastmail.to> wrote in message
news:1113452111.3...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> >If I criticized NLP, it wouldn't faze you, would it? So, why do you think
I
> >give a damn about a TV show when I almost never discuss it?
>
> This paints you as a real loser then. So your're on the West Wing NG
> to socialise? To pass your idle hours? To relieve your loneliness? To
> be an arsehole? To find a wife? What the fuck are you on there for?
To show up real losers like you.
>
> >I don't mind you being a troll, Myron, I only mind you being an
incompetant
> >one. Maybe Bandler was a complete loser, but that doesn't mean that
someone
> >like you, couldn't learn from him.
>
> So calling me a "lonely little loser" is your rebuttal of my arguments
> on behalf of Bandler?
I actually agree with your arguments about Bandler. Not to get too serious
here, but the guy had no self-control because he never decided on what he
stood for. He's become like one of those lunatic Hollywood actors - he's
invented himself so much that he needs the drugs, the violence, etc. to
convince himself that he's alive.
I am not rebutting your argument about Bandler - I'm agreeing with it, dude.
>
> How am I a troll ?
I heard you have hairy feet.
>
> I have learnt from Bandler. How would I be able to criticize NLP and
> DHE if I had no knowledge of them?
You are able to criticize Bandler, NLP, and DHE because you have knowledge
of them.
>
> Do you have anything worthwhile to offer? Can you refute any of my
> arguments? Can you correct any of my understandings of NLP and DHE?
> Can you contribute anything of value to a.p.nlp?
I'm agreeing with your arguments. That's what I'm contributing. But based on
this thread you don't seem to understand NLP.
> Or have you decided
> to fill the (floppy clown) shoes of John Dumberstone and his circus
> sideshow of multiple identities?
Don't know who John Dumberstone is.
>
> Are you volunteering yourself as the next sacrficial lamb? The list is
> a long one.
I understand that you're next to get your neck sliced clean through.
>
> You are "small potatos", a piece of snot on the banister.
You vastly overrate your attempts at insults. I see them for what they are -
a desperate attempt to provoke a response, any response, to prove to
yourself that you can impact people's lives, by having them respond to you.
Glad I could make you feel happy about that.
Joe Bloggs
>
> <lronhubb...@fastmail.to> wrote in message
> news:1113452111.3...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> > >If I criticized NLP, it wouldn't faze you, would it? So, why do you
think
> I
> > >give a damn about a TV show when I almost never discuss it?
> >
> > This paints you as a real loser then. So your're on the West Wing NG
> > to socialise? To pass your idle hours? To relieve your loneliness? To
> > be an arsehole? To find a wife? What the fuck are you on there for?
>
> To show up real losers like you.
Wow, your arguments have been really convincing thus far.
> > >I don't mind you being a troll, Myron, I only mind you being an
> incompetant
> > >one. Maybe Bandler was a complete loser, but that doesn't mean that
> someone
> > >like you, couldn't learn from him.
> >
> > So calling me a "lonely little loser" is your rebuttal of my arguments
> > on behalf of Bandler?
>
> I actually agree with your arguments about Bandler. Not to get too serious
> here, but the guy had no self-control because he never decided on what he
> stood for. He's become like one of those lunatic Hollywood actors - he's
> invented himself so much that he needs the drugs, the violence, etc. to
> convince himself that he's alive.
This reads like typical appologist bullshit. Start off by attempting
commonality by saying you agree with the statements, then follow up and make
excuses for your guru's depraved behavior, finally writing it off as a
genius misunderstood? Ridiculous.
> I am not rebutting your argument about Bandler - I'm agreeing with it,
dude.
"dude"
Nice revision on your initial position, loser. At first you say:
"Maybe Bandler was a complete loser,"
That does not sound like someone who agree's with Myron's argument about
Bandler at all.
> > How am I a troll ?
> I heard you have hairy feet.
"Myron is a lonely little loser" reeks of someone looking for attention.
It's ironic that you would accuse Myron of looking for attention.
> > I have learnt from Bandler. How would I be able to criticize NLP and
> > DHE if I had no knowledge of them?
> You are able to criticize Bandler, NLP, and DHE because you have knowledge
> of them.
Doesn't this contradict you earlier statement:
"Maybe Bandler was a complete loser, but that doesn't mean that someone
like you, couldn't learn from him"
In that statement you are implying that he hasn't learned from him, now you
are revising your opinion and stating that he has
knowledge of NLP and DHE, which means he has learned from Bandler.
> > Do you have anything worthwhile to offer? Can you refute any of my
> > arguments? Can you correct any of my understandings of NLP and DHE?
> > Can you contribute anything of value to a.p.nlp?
> I'm agreeing with your arguments.
With statements like:
"Maybe Bandler was a complete loser,"
"but that doesn't mean that someone like you, couldn't learn from him"
"I don't mind you being a troll, Myron, I only mind you being an incompetant
one."
Now please explain how Myron is an incompetent troll when you are now saying
you agree with him? That would a) negate that you believe he is a troll b)
negate that you believe his is "incompetant".
Do you like the taste of your foot in your mouth?
> That's what I'm contributing. But based on
> this thread you don't seem to understand NLP.
Which completely contradicts what you said earlier on in this very posting:
"You are able to criticize Bandler, NLP, and DHE because you have knowledge
of them."
Did you take a few tokes from your bong before posting?
> > Or have you decided
> > to fill the (floppy clown) shoes of John Dumberstone and his circus
> > sideshow of multiple identities?
> Don't know who John Dumberstone is.
Sure you do. By your own admission you've been following this debate/forum
for some time...you will then be very well acquainted with the moron
Headstone aka Tombstonetales4U aka John Humberstone aka John Dumberstone.
> > Are you volunteering yourself as the next sacrficial lamb? The list is
> > a long one.
> I understand that you're next to get your neck sliced clean through.
Didn't Gentle Idiot also make physical threats via the internet. The irony
of someone like you accusing Myron of having no life as you actively engage
in online discussions regarding TV shows that are a waste of time in and of
themselves. You're sounding dumber and dumber by the minute.
> > You are "small potatos", a piece of snot on the banister.
> You vastly overrate your attempts at insults.
When did he ever rate his insults? He just delivers them, you moron.
>I see them for what they are -
The truth.
> a desperate attempt to provoke a response,
You initiated this thread with the subject heading "Myron is a lonely little
loser" which was a desperate attempt to provoke a response. Pot calling the
kettle black, pal. You're an idiot, like the rest, who get's burned by his
own criteria.
>any response, to prove to
> yourself that you can impact people's lives, by having them respond to
you.
"Myron is a lonley little loser!" says the dickhead who talks about the West
Wing on an internet forum, desperately trying to get responses.
> Glad I could make you feel happy about that.
You mean like with statements:
"I'm agreeing with your arguments."
right after you call them feeble without anything to back up that assertion,
tool?
Dull, useless tool.
Joe Bloggs
> Hi Joe, how's it going?
Good.
> Please provide evidence I'm trying to distract from "the main issue".
The evidence is the variety of stupid questions you have raised, when they
are clearly stated in most of Unkah's responses.
What you're trying to do is elicit no substance answers and use them to show
Unkah how silly his arguments are. It's
a feeble attempt.
> Greg
> ps. I also have to thank you for relating me to the REALLY VALUABLE
> thing :) even if it was an accident :)
No accident. You actually contribute some good stuff once in a while :-). My
point is if in cleaning up this group, Unkah has to sacrifice a baby (you)
amongst
all the dirty water (Nick Kemp, John Humberstone, David Gould, Jon Altfeld,
James Harris, et al) then so be it :-)))
Myron lronhubbardisanut@fastmail.to
> > This paints you as a real loser then. So your're on the West Wing
NG
> > to socialise? To pass your idle hours? To relieve your loneliness?
To
> > be an arsehole? To find a wife? What the fuck are you on there
for?
>
> To show up real losers like you.
Hahahahahahahahaha-fucking-ha! I don't loiter in NGs dedicated to TV
shows.
You'd know about "real losers", wouldn't you, you are a card-carrying
member
of the Guild of Losers. What you could contribute to a.p.nlp is a
phenomenologically
dense account of life as a loser. This I can't do.
> > So calling me a "lonely little loser" is your rebuttal of my
arguments
> > on behalf of Bandler?
>
> I actually agree with your arguments about Bandler. Not to get too
serious
> here, but the guy had no self-control because he never decided on
what he
> stood for. He's become like one of those lunatic Hollywood actors -
he's
> invented himself so much that he needs the drugs, the violence, etc.
to
> convince himself that he's alive.
That's so fucking profound. Thanks Freud. Please share the citation.
Is it "Who" magazine?
"People" magazine? Perhaps now you can turn that laser-like intellect
on yourself and come up with the answer to the conundrum of why you
loiter on the West Wing NG posting shit when you could be using your
time reading an informative book.
Please do post more of your insights.
> I am not rebutting your argument about Bandler - I'm agreeing with
it, dude.
You're agreeing with "it" by making moribund posts containing flaccid
insults directed
against me?
> > How am I a troll ?
>
> I heard you have hairy feet.
No, that would be your mail-order bride from Kazakhstan. Hang tight.
You'll soon
have someone to watch West Wing with.
> > I have learnt from Bandler. How would I be able to criticize NLP
and
> > DHE if I had no knowledge of them?
>
> You are able to criticize Bandler, NLP, and DHE because you have
knowledge
> of them.
Yeah, you're sharp.
> > Do you have anything worthwhile to offer? Can you refute any of my
> > arguments? Can you correct any of my understandings of NLP and
DHE?
> > Can you contribute anything of value to a.p.nlp?
>
> I'm agreeing with your arguments. That's what I'm contributing.
Your opening "contribution" was "Myron is a lonely little loser",
repeated
four times. How does that foster debate?
> But based on
> this thread you don't seem to understand NLP.
You just contradicted yourself. What don't I understand? Please
tell me. Educate me. As a West Wing viewer you must be very
knowledgeable on a range of topics.
> > Or have you decided
> > to fill the (floppy clown) shoes of John Dumberstone and his circus
> > sideshow of multiple identities?
>
> Don't know who John Dumberstone is.
He may be related. Did you climb out of a bucket at an abortion
clinic and were raised by rats?
> > Are you volunteering yourself as the next sacrficial lamb? The
list is
> > a long one.
>
> I understand that you're next to get your neck sliced clean through.
Really? And who will be doing this? You? Did your facial tic
flare-up
when you typed that? Did you feel the urge to set a hedge on fire?
> > You are "small potatos", a piece of snot on the banister.
>
> You vastly overrate your attempts at insults. I see them for what
they are -
> a desperate attempt to provoke a response, any response, to prove to
> yourself that you can impact people's lives, by having them respond
to you.
That is a self-refuting statement. Your very act of responding refutes
your
basic proposition.
> Glad I could make you feel happy about that.
Mocking idiots like you is becoming stale, its too easy. Your just one
dribbling
cretin of many that I've dealt with on a.p.nlp. The novelty is wearing
off
but I'll continue because many people get a laugh at the expense of
simpletons
like you.
-Myron
Greg Alexander
Joe Bloggs wrote:
> What you're trying to do is elicit no substance answers and
> use them to show Unkah how silly his arguments are. It's
> a feeble attempt.
I don't want that at all.
I find there's some real core issues Tim is raising, but they're
muddled in many other things.
That said, I'm not getting a clearer response which is worth
considering in what I'm asking - though it's not just about the answer
of course.
> > ps. I also have to thank you for relating me to the REALLY VALUABLE
> > thing :) even if it was an accident :)
>
> No accident. You actually contribute some good stuff once in a while
:-).
> My point is if in cleaning up this group, Unkah has to sacrifice a
> baby (you) amongst all the dirty water <s> then so be it :-)))
I'm speechless. A real pattern interrupt for me! :)
Thanks.
Haradlurson
<lronhubb...@fastmail.to> wrote in message
> Mocking idiots like you is becoming stale, its too easy. Your just one
> dribbling
> cretin of many that I've dealt with on a.p.nlp. The novelty is wearing
> off
> but I'll continue because many people get a laugh at the expense of
> simpletons
> like you.
I'm one of the ones gettng a very good hearty laugh.
Victor
<lronhubb...@fastmail.to> wrote in message
news:1113483103.9...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > This paints you as a real loser then. So your're on the West Wing
> NG
> > > to socialise? To pass your idle hours? To relieve your loneliness?
> To
> > > be an arsehole? To find a wife? What the fuck are you on there
> for?
> >
> > To show up real losers like you.
>
> Hahahahahahahahaha-fucking-ha! I don't loiter in NGs dedicated to TV
> shows.
If by loiter, do you mean on a daily basis like you do, then no, I don't
loiter in newsgroups.
>
> You'd know about "real losers", wouldn't you, you are a card-carrying
member
> of the Guild of Losers. What you could contribute to a.p.nlp is a
> phenomenologically dense account of life as a loser. This I can't do.
Sorry, I'm not as familiar with that Guild as you seem to be.
>
> > > So calling me a "lonely little loser" is your rebuttal of my arguments
> > > on behalf of Bandler?
> >
> > I actually agree with your arguments about Bandler. Not to get too
serious
> > here, but the guy had no self-control because he never decided on what
he
> > stood for. He's become like one of those lunatic Hollywood actors - he's
> > invented himself so much that he needs the drugs, the violence, etc. to
> > convince himself that he's alive.
>
> That's so fucking profound. Thanks Freud. Please share the citation.
> Is it "Who" magazine?
> "People" magazine? Perhaps now you can turn that laser-like intellect
> on yourself and come up with the answer to the conundrum of why you
> loiter on the West Wing NG posting shit when you could be using your
> time reading an informative book.
>
> Please do post more of your insights.
I'm sorry if getting too serious was too adult for you.
Oh, if you're going to plagurize lines from "Silence of the Lambs", you
should at least use the proper citation instead of trying to pass it off as
your own wit.
>
> > I am not rebutting your argument about Bandler - I'm agreeing with it,
dude.
>
> You're agreeing with "it" by making moribund posts containing flaccid
> insults directed against me?
I never knew you were flaccid. But it's brave of you to admit it publicly.
Don't worry, it doesn't make you less of a man.
>
> > > How am I a troll ?
> >
> > I heard you have hairy feet.
>
> No, that would be your mail-order bride from Kazakhstan. Hang tight.
> You'll soon have someone to watch West Wing with.
I'd think someone as flaccid as you couldn't hang tight. But you shouldn't
be jealous of me.
>
> > > I have learnt from Bandler. How would I be able to criticize NLP and
> > > DHE if I had no knowledge of them?
> >
> > You are able to criticize Bandler, NLP, and DHE because you have
knowledge
> > of them.
>
> Yeah, you're sharp.
Thank you for the compliment, dude!
>
> > > Do you have anything worthwhile to offer? Can you refute any of my
> > > arguments? Can you correct any of my understandings of NLP and DHE?
> > > Can you contribute anything of value to a.p.nlp?
> >
> > I'm agreeing with your arguments. That's what I'm contributing.
>
> Your opening "contribution" was "Myron is a lonely little loser",
> repeated
> four times. How does that foster debate?
Because it worked!
>
> > But based on
> > this thread you don't seem to understand NLP.
>
> You just contradicted yourself. What don't I understand? Please
> tell me. Educate me. As a West Wing viewer you must be very
> knowledgeable on a range of topics.
Thanks for the compliment!
>
> > > Or have you decided
> > > to fill the (floppy clown) shoes of John Dumberstone and his circus
> > > sideshow of multiple identities?
> >
> > Don't know who John Dumberstone is.
>
> He may be related. Did you climb out of a bucket at an abortion
> clinic and were raised by rats?
Why, are you looking for your family?
>
> > > Are you volunteering yourself as the next sacrficial lamb? The list
is
> > > a long one.
> >
> > I understand that you're next to get your neck sliced clean through.
>
> Really? And who will be doing this? You? Did your facial tic
> flare-up when you typed that? Did you feel the urge to set a hedge on
fire?
It must take a lot of courage for someone as flaccid as you to use the word
"urge" in a complete sentence.
>
> > > You are "small potatos", a piece of snot on the banister.
> >
> > You vastly overrate your attempts at insults. I see them for what they
are -
> > a desperate attempt to provoke a response, any response, to prove to
> > yourself that you can impact people's lives, by having them respond
> > to you.
>
> That is a self-refuting statement. Your very act of responding refutes
> your basic proposition.
Wow, what a brave attempt at logic! Too bad it failed.
>
> > Glad I could make you feel happy about that.
>
> Mocking idiots like you is becoming stale, its too easy. Your just one
> dribbling
> cretin of many that I've dealt with on a.p.nlp. The novelty is wearing
> off but I'll continue because many people get a laugh at the expense of
> simpletons like you.
Your bitterness is so entertaining!
Joe Bloggs
> <lronhubb...@fastmail.to> wrote in message
> news:1113483103.9...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > > I am not rebutting your argument about Bandler - I'm agreeing with it,
> > > dude.
> > You're agreeing with "it" by making moribund posts containing flaccid
> > insults directed against me?
> I never knew you were flaccid.
So you have reading comprehension problems too.
> But it's brave of you to admit it publicly.
Admit what? That you are an easy target?
> Don't worry, it doesn't make you less of a man.
No one needed your confirmation to know that.
> > Your opening "contribution" was "Myron is a lonely little loser",
> > repeated four times. How does that foster debate?
> Because it worked!
That's not debate, moron, it's trolling and soon you will be dredging into
stalking.
You can't even get the insult game right.
> > > But based on
> > > this thread you don't seem to understand NLP.
> > You just contradicted yourself. What don't I understand? Please
> > tell me. Educate me. As a West Wing viewer you must be very
> > knowledgeable on a range of topics.
>
> Thanks for the compliment!
> > > You vastly overrate your attempts at insults. I see them for what they
> are -
> > > a desperate attempt to provoke a response, any response, to prove to
> > > yourself that you can impact people's lives, by having them respond
> > > to you.
> >
> > That is a self-refuting statement. Your very act of responding refutes
> > your basic proposition.
> Wow, what a brave attempt at logic! Too bad it failed.
Hahahaha
Translation:
"Thanks for trying to explain this to me, but I am not at your level and
simply cannot understand you."