Is Dr. Richard Bandler Still A Cocaine Addict?
Biggie P
I was recently reading an article regarding Richard Bandler's arrest
and later acquittal for the murder of Corine Anne Christensen in the
mid 80s.
http://einstein.periphery.cc/cia.htm
I am a huge fan of Dr. Bandler and had never really even heard about
the trial or the very unusal circustances surrounding it, even though
I was living in the Santa Cruz Mountains at the time, of course I was
only 9. Anyway, what disturbed me almost more than the murder itself
was the revelation, at least to me, that Dr. Bandler was doing
'massive' amounts of coke at the time. I've been around coke addicts
before and suddenly found myself thinking of the countless hours of
Dr. Bandler's seminars that I had so thoroughly enjoyed listening to
as the delusional ravings of a coked up madman, rather than the wise
words of one of the most important figures of modern psychology and
hypnosis. I was let down to say the least.
So, my big questions are:
1. Does Dr. Bandler's drug use discount the work he's done in anyway
or like Freud should/will it be overlooked for the sake of all the
good he's done?
2. Does anyone know if Dr. Bandler is still using cocaine, in
similarly excessive quantities?
Just wondering?
Thanks for any replies.
Adam Sargant
news:2bb0790e.03080...@posting.google.com...
> Hello NLPers.
>
> I was recently reading an article regarding Richard Bandler's arrest
> and later acquittal for the murder of Corine Anne Christensen in the
> mid 80s.
> http://einstein.periphery.cc/cia.htm
>
> I am a huge fan of Dr. Bandler and had never really even heard about
> the trial or the very unusal circustances surrounding it, even though
> I was living in the Santa Cruz Mountains at the time, of course I was
> only 9. Anyway, what disturbed me almost more than the murder itself
> was the revelation, at least to me, that Dr. Bandler was doing
> 'massive' amounts of coke at the time. I've been around coke addicts
> before and suddenly found myself thinking of the countless hours of
> Dr. Bandler's seminars that I had so thoroughly enjoyed listening to
> as the delusional ravings of a coked up madman, rather than the wise
> words of one of the most important figures of modern psychology and
> hypnosis. I was let down to say the least.
>
> So, my big questions are:
>
> 1. Does Dr. Bandler's drug use discount the work he's done in anyway
> or like Freud should/will it be overlooked for the sake of all the
> good he's done?
I don't know about Freud, nor do I have any access to special knowledge
about RB's alleged drug use, past or presence, but only you can decide if
such allegations should be allowed to invalidate your opinion as to the
value of his work. I personally reckon myself capable of making the
distinction between useful learning and ravings:-)
> 2. Does anyone know if Dr. Bandler is still using cocaine, in
> similarly excessive quantities?
I trained under Susanna Bellini who was apprenticed to RB and thus had a
high degree of access to him at work and at home. IMO, the stories she came
back with were not consistent with the behaviour of anyone on a large drug
habit of any sort.
Adam
--
www.trance-formation.co.uk
Personal growth, change and health through NLP and trance work
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Larry D. Hols
> 1. Does Dr. Bandler's drug use discount the work he's done in anyway
Does what he teaches work?
> 2. Does anyone know if Dr. Bandler is still using cocaine, in
> similarly excessive quantities?
If what he teaches works, why would anybody care?
He's claimed from the beginning that it's all lies, although those lies
may prove useful. If it proves useful, pay attention.
Larry
David Gould
>1. Does Dr. Bandler's drug use discount the work he's done in anyway
>or like Freud should/will it be overlooked for the sake of all the
>good he's done?
Yeah, let's find every single person who's ever been helped by NLP and
regress them back to their innocence whilst giving them amnesia for
everything they learnt.
Ohh, but who's going to do it? Because we're talking millions of people
here... Who's going to be the last one with the NLP knowledge and can
we trust them?
Cos Drugs are Bad…Mmmmkay?
>2. Does anyone know if Dr. Bandler is still using cocaine, in
>similarly excessive quantities?
The thing about cocaine, it lasts for about 10 mins. Not convenient for
trainings when he teaches for 2-3 hours without a break.
Tom Vizzini
I must admit I stated his while before deciding whether to reply.
The reason I hesitated was because I was not sure I went to get into a long
dialogue about Bandler and drug use. So I walked away. Then I began to
think. What does this possibly have to do with Bandler?
Could one .man possibly invalidate NLP? Even if he was one of the creators?
In this is the problem when you think of very minute scales. In order to
invalidate NLP you have to invalidate the hundreds of thousands of people
who are getting results using the process.
Could Bandler doing cocaine go back in time and invalidate those results?
I think that what else is being ignored is all the contributors to the field
of NLP. Many act as if they were is the sole creator of this technology.
That simply is not true. There was a huge collaboration in the creation of
NLP.
I was having lunch with Steve Andreas and I asked him point-blank about
Bandler's role in the creation of NLP. He was the first one to say that
Bandler was the wellspring of creativity for NLP. I also believe that I
creativity was honed by the other people around at that time.
So the answer to your questions is "who cares".
Whatever Bandler did or did not do does not invalidate NLP.
So let me offer a question to you.
Have you ever done drugs or behaved in a way that you would not like people
to know about?
If you can only learn from those who've never made a mistake, you're going
to limit the amount people that you will be able to go to learn.
This post is not to make excuses for Bandler's behavior. It is not to
verify or deny anything he might have done. It is to validate that the
model of NLP gets results that are undeniable. The model works.
If you want a perfect guru then Bandler is not your man. If you want a set
of skills that can generate a better life than NLP may be your tool.
--
Tom Vizzini
Real Skills for the Real World
www.essential-skills.com
Atlanta Seminars September 2003
Essential Skills Seminar September 5 6 and 7
Masters Seminar September 12 13 and 14
"Biggie P" <nlp19...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2bb0790e.03080...@posting.google.com...
> Hello NLPers.>
Adam Sargant
news:W8uXa.3179$jg.20...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
<snip>
> If you want a perfect guru then Bandler is not your man. If you want a
set
> of skills that can generate a better life than NLP may be your tool.
Hey nicely said:-)
Nick Kemp
The heading posted for this thread is a bit like "When did you stop
beating your wife" which I find a bit strange considering that this ng
is supposed to be about use of language and NLP...
Billy The Fish
>snip<
>
> Could one .man possibly invalidate NLP? Even if he was one of the creators?
>
"Invalidate" is too strong a term I think. However, it also remains that a
LOT of people associate NLP with Bandler - let's face it it's hard to NOT be
exposed to the man's ideas when you become interested in this field.
The sometimes negative publicity which has been associated (rightly or
wrongly) with Bandler in the past may be offputting to some. It would be
nice to think that it doesn't matter, but for some it does. Figureheads of
any movement have a disproportionate influence.
> snip<
> If you want a perfect guru then Bandler is not your man. If you want a set
> of skills that can generate a better life than NLP may be your tool.
>
Agreed.
Billy
Biggie P
wrote:
Hello again.
Thanks to everybody for the responses so far. I was/am by no means
trying to discredit Dr. Bandler or the work that he and countless
others have done in the field. I posted the questions with the hope of
eliciting answers/opinions from those of you that probably know him
and his work much better than I do. The fact of Dr. Bandler's drug
use, at least at the time of the incident, doesn't seem to be
disputed, and as such, the presuppisition of addiction in the heading
was intentional and appropriate.
I hope you all can understand that I have nothing but the highest
respect for Dr. Bandler. While I certainly don't expect him, or anyone
else perfect, learning about Dr. Bandler's drug use, has forced me to
view one of the few men I would ever have called one of my heroes, as
an ordinary man, with ordinary faults & weaknesses.
It feels a little like learning your childhood sports hero
supplemented his natural talent with steroids and I am more
disappointed than anything else.
Thanks again for all of you that have taking the time to reply.
Biggie P
Billy The Fish
>snip<
> I hope you all can understand that I have nothing but the highest
> respect for Dr. Bandler. While I certainly don't expect him, or anyone
> else perfect, learning about Dr. Bandler's drug use, has forced me to
> view one of the few men I would ever have called one of my heroes, as
> an ordinary man, with ordinary faults & weaknesses.
>
> It feels a little like learning your childhood sports hero
> supplemented his natural talent with steroids and I am more
> disappointed than anything else.
On the other hand, discovering something like this could actually make you
appreciate what he's done even more.
He's just a fallible human like the rest of us. A very non-useful belief in
some fields of therapy is that one must be "free" of whatever "problem" they
are "treating" in others. That, in reality, is bollocks. Some of the best
drug and alcohol addiction workers I've met have been those that have
suffered from addiction in the past. One of the best couple counsellors I
know has been through 2 divorces.
Stop believing the myths of perfection.
Billy.
PStuart
I've met him briefly a few times and have taken a number of seminars with
him... and I would say, having known any number of drug addicts in my time,
that he is very much in control of his mental state and does not display
addictive behavior. He's even stopped smoking cigarettes.
Bandler is still quite amazing as a teacher (maybe even more so than in the
past)... if you want to form your own opinion, perhaps you can pick up a recent
video of his, like the Neuro-Hypnotic Repatterning tapes and make your own
observations.
93 93/93
Phil
Magick and NLP Seminars
http://members.aol.com/pstuart/
Elvis Lester
Phil, ?, "drug Addict".
Of course he is "still" an amazing teacher. He is still alive.
He will be a great teacher in this lifetime and who knows, maybe beyond.
I still have a little "Bandler Man" running aroung in my head. :O)
Elvis Keith Lester, MA, LMHC, NCC
ExecuLearn(r)
http://www.execulearn.biz
"PStuart" <pst...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030804183937...@mb-m05.aol.com...
Elvis Lester
You ever done cocaine? Just wondering.
--
Elvis Keith Lester, MA, LMHC, NCC
ExecuLearn(r)
http://www.execulearn.biz
"Billy The Fish" <billyth...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:BB5466F7.D0B5%billyth...@hotmail.com...
Billy The Fish
No I haven't, why? Enlighten me...
Billy
Elvis Lesterwrote :
Nick Kemp
You too eh? <g> Mine activates "the attitude" button when needed!
(:
Nick
www.nlpcds.com
Elvis Lester
don't consider myself to have really ever 'done' "Addiction" counseling,
even with some odd 15+ years experience working with "addiction" now. I have
counseled "people" who have chosen to "do/use drugs/alcohol/substances",
etc. (crank/crack/heroine/much more) and done my very best to educate and
motivate them to choose not to do so.
From what I have seen, it is about choice, control (choice not to control)
and power and persuasion, decisions-consequences-effects, and
detecting/preventing/attempting to lessen deterioration/destruction at some
point in the "using" and then on to choosing the "not doing".
Yes, it is "crazy" to think we can "control" all that can and does go on
related to "using" whatever substance "chosen". No matter what, their are
"destructive" consequences. No matter what, the decisions made come with a
price. It has been said that "In the world of drugs nothing is for free".
Once "adapted", neuro-adapted, there is seemingly no return to "normal" from
what we know. If the Cheating continues, the flirting, well, the price paid
can be way too high.
Finally, exercise of "control" - the power to choose is exercised - to not
don't "go back". It is done. People quit and are done with "it". They
dis-identify with "doing and using". Sometimes the damage done is too high
for them to compensate and Some consider themselves lucky they did not pay
as high a price they thought they would... Yet, Sacrifices were made. Then
again, Some simply never stop to exercise their powers of just saying no...
NO MORE!
"Two bits for bits six bits a dollar. All for drug use stand up and
squallor... your life away."
Elvis Keith Lester, MA, LMHC, NCC, MAC
ExecuLearn(r)
http://www.execulearn.biz
"Elvis Lester" <EL...@learninstitute.com> wrote in message
news:PzCXa.15660$K4.7...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
Elvis Lester
quality"...
nobody deserves.
Elvis Keith Lester, MA, LMHC, NCC
ExecuLearn(r)
http://www.execulearn.biz
"Elvis Lester" <EL...@learninstitute.com> wrote in message
news:IrIXa.15047$qg3.8...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
Robert
>
> 1. Does Dr. Bandler's drug use discount the work he's done in anyway
> or like Freud should/will it be overlooked for the sake of all the
> good he's done?
Any human will do things which isnt that good.
Politicians of old did snort cocain, go to prostitutes like Clinton
who got blown of by a intern!
He ruled USA! Talk about responsability as a president...
It is no excuse to do things like that but it seems to be human.
It si good to get a blow job. he need to relax..dammit.
Doing a lot of drugs isnt healthy either for your mind or body.
Clouds judgement.
The question becomes a discussion of free will agaisnt society and the
rules.
Society will impose rules for the safety of the society and those
living in there. In that free will will be one main thing which will
have to succomb to some rules.
It is a trade of.
When to much free will things become anarchy.
When to much society of rules things become dictatorship.
Judging from a human standpoint taking someones life without consent
dosnt seem to be anything which anyone human should accept.
What really happen in that room at her death only 2 men knows.
> 2. Does anyone know if Dr. Bandler is still using cocaine, in
> similarly excessive quantities?
Not to my knowledge.
/Robert
NLP trainer.
Peter Lee
I like your nicely analysed reply.
Peter
"Robert" <rob...@svensknlp.nu> ???
news:627ff765.0308...@posting.google.com ???...
Marco
I do not see any discrepancy between teaching NLP and taking cocaine.
We may consider - or not - that taking cocaine is a bad thing but I
reckon that NLP deals with how to do things well. The issue of knowing
if they are good or bad is out of the scope: it is a moral and
personal question, not an operational one.
For instance I believe it is Bandler or Grinder, I do not remember
exactly who, has given training to soldiers in order to improve their
skills with guns, in other words to help them to kill better people.
Is it a good use of NLP?
We could say that - it is just a hypothesis - thanks to NLP, Bandler
has managed to take advantage of drugs whitout having the drawbacks.
Don't you think it could be used as a good advertising strategy for
NLP?
Marco
philip r
>
> Does Dr. Bandler's drug use discount the work he's done in anyway
> or like Freud should/will it be overlooked for the sake of all the
> good he's done?
>
=
'
'
S'no(w) big deal. - Some of the most creative people have used drugs,
especially in the early phases of their creativity.
'
Bandler's septum may occasionally twinge, but others will continue to
sniff out his great NLP work, and appreciate the genius within........
'
'
/============
J Rapson
> Hi,
>
> I do not see any discrepancy between teaching NLP and taking cocaine.
> We may consider - or not - that taking cocaine is a bad thing but I
> reckon that NLP deals with how to do things well. The issue of knowing
> if they are good or bad is out of the scope: it is a moral and
> personal question, not an operational one.
>
> For instance I believe it is Bandler or Grinder, I do not remember
> exactly who, has given training to soldiers in order to improve their
> skills with guns, in other words to help them to kill better people.
> Is it a good use of NLP?
>
the 5? man team that included Grinder and Tony Robbins,which modeled
the snipers/sharpshooters) the U S Army for some wierd reason never
ended actually awarding the contract to actually train soldiers with
the findings of that project. go figure. the modeliing project
happened, but the Army never followed through with training that would
have radically improved the entire sniper teams accuracy.
Jim R
Billy The Fish
>Snip<
>but the Army never followed through with training that would
> have radically improved the entire sniper teams accuracy.
>
> Jim R
How on earth do you know that? That's junk logic.
J Rapson
Billy,
because Wyatt Woodsmall TOLD me in a phone conversation. (my posting
DID say: " according Wyatt Woodsmall").
Jim R
Billy The Fish
That Wyatt told you the program was cancelled isn't what I'm referring to.
The assertion that it "would have radically improved the entire sniper teams
accuracy" is.
Billy
J Rapsonwrote :
Jonathan Altfeld
does not.
Jim Rapson wrote:
>>>> Snip<
>>>> but the Army never followed through with training that would
>>>> have radically improved the entire sniper teams accuracy.
>>>> Jim R
Billy The Fish wrote:
>>> How on earth do you know that? That's junk logic.
My comments:
"How on earth do you know that?" <-- Useful question
"That's junk logic." <-- Invalid conclusion, see below.
Jim Rapson wrote:
>> because Wyatt Woodsmall TOLD me in a phone conversation.
>> (my posting DID say: " according Wyatt Woodsmall").
Billy The Fish wrote:
>That Wyatt told you the program was cancelled isn't what I'm
>referring to. The assertion that it "would have radically
>improved the entire sniper teams accuracy" is.
No, it's not junk logic, just by what you've seen. It's just
unsubstantiated from (y)our perspective at present. The two are not the
same thing at all.
This cannot be termed an example of junk logic without knowing more
about the basis of the assertion. Only if you are informed and certain
about the full basis of the assertion, and only if you know for certain
that there is no valid causal relationship between the proposed cause &
effect, would it be "junk logic." You do not have data to support
either side of the argument. So all that means is that we are
uninformed -- too uninformed to believe Jim's comments about Wyatt's
comments at face value, and also too uninformed to call it junk logic.
Jim's comments may or may not be an accurate replay of what Wyatt told
Jim. The assertion may or may not have been substantiated by the team
of NLP consultants and/or by the army, but we don't have data about this
either, yet in this thread. Wyatt may have that data. Jim may or may
not have that data. This thread has not shown that data.
Absence of more thorough disclosure does not equate to 'junk logic.'
Getting that information may or may not lead to a conclusion of junk
logic, but that is not the case in this thread, at this time.
Regards,
Jonathan Altfeld (jona...@altfeld.com)
http://www.altfeld.com/mastery/index.html Phone: 813-854-4848
Holographic Communication: Tampa, FL: Oct/2003 (Presentation Skills)
NLP Skills-Builders: Orlando, FL: Oct/2003 (Rapport, Influence & more)
Linguistic Wizardry: Orlando, FL: Oct/2003 (Advanced Language skills)
Knowledge Engineering: Orlando, FL in October, Sydney AU in June 2004
Global Newsletter: masteryi...@list.altfeld.com
FLIRTING & NLP tips: flirtop...@list.altfeld.com
Billy The Fish
Grow a brain Jonathan fer Chrissakes.
Jonathan Altfeldwrote :