Benefits of Doubts?
Bob Ashley
Inspired by Zvi's "7% solution" I wonder: why in this newsgroup do we hear
about the same ratio of success story to methodological discourse. Here
is an energetic, jubilant concern with matters of technique, nuances of
method, terministic correctness, the latest literature. The narrative,
however, seems to have no big place. Where are the stories of inspiration?
Why am I discouraged? The paucity of success stories. A near-vaccuum of
stories recounting client testimonial, reader endorsement, subject
success, famous development, astounding achievement, sobering
spirituality, celebratory renewal, joyous reunions, wild financial boons,
pinnacles of physical feats and so forth...ad lib.
What am I suggesting? Nothing. But to the new observer protocol sometimes
appears to reign over performance. Why do I feel dulled.
I expect to be flamed for this. But not to be flamed would certainly be
one of those success stories I can't seem find in these here parts...only
instruction books for the nlp vcr.
Still learning, but ain't easy.
Regards,
Rib
Underdog
Welcome to the group. Or maybe you've been here awhile and I've been
hiding you from me. At any rate, I like what I've seen of you so far.
I guess it depends on what you call a success story, doesn't it? I know
that I have posted comments and stories about my own personal
breakthroughs and those of folks I've worked with. But, they haven't
been all that spectacular. Mostly they have been rather mundane tales of
taking promtional assessments and raising my daughter. Generative change
stuff, that may be profound as hell (the change I mean), but doesn't
really lend itself to great drama. Just quiet little things that alter
the course of my life like dipping a paddle into the river as I enter
the rapids at just the right angle.
Remedial change is a little different. But, if it is done well, I've
found it usually isn't that big a deal to the person changing. They tend
to think that that is the way they've always been. If I meet someone
shouting high hosannas about the fantastic and miraculous change that
has come over their life, my first thought is why are they so
ecologically unbalanced? Have you ever been accosted by a zealous
ex-smoker or a twelve-step "recovering" alcoholic? Not my idea of
elegant change.
So I think for stories of success here, you may have to rely on your
peripheral vision a bit more and read the compelling tales that are only
there between the lines of focus. For rousing and blatant testimonials,
try the sites that are selling stuff. Most of us here are just talking
and learning. If you feel dulled, perhaps you can discover why a barber
uses a smooth piece of leather to strop his razor instead of a
grindstone.
Be well,
Thomas
PS I only added that last part to meet your expectations of being
flamed.
Bob Ashley
> I guess it depends on what you call a success story, doesn't it? I know
> that I have posted comments and stories about my own personal
> breakthroughs and those of folks I've worked with. But, they haven't
> been all that spectacular. Mostly they have been rather mundane tales of
> taking promtional assessments and raising my daughter. Generative change
> stuff, that may be profound as hell (the change I mean), but doesn't
> really lend itself to great drama. Just quiet little things that alter
> the course of my life like dipping a paddle into the river as I enter
> the rapids at just the right angle.
Okay, mundane success. Generative change. Quite things. Canoes. Such an
idyllic tranquility you paint! An nlp pastorale.
Yes, I get your drift that I might have seemed to be begging for Hollywood
grandiosities of succulent success. But no, this isn't quite what I was
looking at. Rather my concern was more about what I perceived to be a
hefty emphasis on method but little accompanying excitement about the
efficacy. Much fuss about the right labels, the subtleties of theory and
application. But I don't sense overwheening, overbrimmingness of pride or
deep satisfactions, even of the 'Indian Summer' watercolour sort you
describe (and I don't mean this sarcastically either!). And neither do I
mean desiring big-shot scientistic bruhauhau of the 'study shows...'
variety.
I'm merely wondering...whither goes the tale of success?
I think most of us would consider a full-term, healthy pregnancy a great
success. Parents and grandparents beam and flowers are pastels of
jubilant energy. And the reporting! Whoa, can people contain themselves:
"the baby did this....the baby looks like so-and-so..the baby did that.
Pictures and videos are taken, hair locks clipped, the memorabilia, the
altars of love we buil. In other words, when people are excited, when they
do something they're proud of, they mark it somehow.
Let me risk another analogy: practioners as partners. When (and if)
success are midwifed (even in canoes!) why does it not seem so much like
the scene of new parents I just fabricated? Why no 'my client did this',
I'm so pround of my clients new-found vigor, 'my client, you should see
her go!, 'I love my job, I revere it, my calling calls.
I know, I know. Going over the top, aren't I. Yes, I suppose. It just
seems sometimes round these parts, well sometimes it seems
almost...morose? Maybe that's too strong. How about sober? Whatever I do,
I say, I'm bound to overgeneralize and I apologize upfront for any person
I've unfairly branded. Most likely with each word I write I dig myself
into a deeper and deeper pit.
Thomas wrote:
> Remedial change is a little different. But, if it is done well, I've
> found it usually isn't that big a deal to the person changing. They tend
> to think that that is the way they've always been. If I meet someone
> shouting high hosannas about the fantastic and miraculous change that
> has come over their life, my first thought is why are they so
> ecologically unbalanced? Have you ever been accosted by a zealous
> ex-smoker or a twelve-step "recovering" alcoholic? Not my idea of
> elegant change.
These scenarios of yours, Thomas, make much sense. They seem to speak in
favour of a special brand of quite humility, something I have no strength
to overpower. But I might ask if you really think your recreation of my
position is fairly drawn. I can't imagine anyone saying, 'Yes, you've
reiterated my position accurately and charitably and intact with all its
subtleties. Rather it would seem by your lights (at least just at this
juncture) I'm a quite dim fellow, easily impressed by expansive shows of
tinsel and pyrotechnical seductions. Well, Thomas, on the 4th of July,
you'd be exactly right! No, my little project is actually as sober as that
which i believe I'm encountering and re-encountering as I visit these
parts daily. Mirroring? Mirrors not only report the convenient or
expedient, but the awkward and obviating.
In any case, if you think I'm an easily awestruck, I should have only
myself to blame for piling on one or twelve too many adjectives, making my
post too chocolatey-oozey.
> So I think for stories of success here, you may have to rely on your
> peripheral vision a bit more and read the compelling tales that are only
> there between the lines of focus. For rousing and blatant testimonials,
> try the sites that are selling stuff. Most of us here are just talking
> and learning. If you feel dulled, perhaps you can discover why a barber
> uses a smooth piece of leather to strop his razor instead of a
> grindstone.
Yes, I like your idea of peripheral vision and this paragraph shows that
you can exemplify it when you want to. But I'm not looking to be compelled
for I understand that only myths have enough power to do that. And that's
fine too: I have quite an inventory of myths I deeply believe in.
And of the barber's strop? What is this so silky sharp as your razor and
its love affair with soft soft leather, when what built civilization are
the axes and saws brought bright to stubbly sharpness with the clattering
sparks of the rough, rough, and ready wheel.
The grit.
Regards,
Rib
Underdog
So, let me ask you this then. Are you lamenting that there is not more
of success stories here or are you asking to be directed to them or is
it something else? My post to you was an attempt to perhaps explain
your perceived dearth and to guide you in a possibly useful direction to
find more of what you seek. And yet I seem to have missed the mark by a
somewhat wide margin with you.
I have come to accept that often, if you actually do some work here with
someone who seeks help, you never find out how effective it was. Because
if someone gets the change they seek, it becomes a non-issue for them
usually and there is nothing compelling them to report back. This is my
own little fantasy of what may be happening, though. Everyone else may
think differently.
For the other kinds of conversations that capture my interest, along
with the assorted flame wars and lexiconic duels often fought on this
field, there is much discussion of the hows and whys and whens etc. You
know.....tech talk. And while I'm certain that just about everyone who
participates here has their share of successes and their share of
frustrations, it is the new and unusual that tends to get brought up.
While it has been a bit dry here the last few months or so, there have
been fascinating threads about all kinds of compelling topics. And if
you care to, you can go to Deja News and do a search or my, or anyone
else's email address and find thousands of posts from which to glean a
rich harvest of golden kernals of success in the warm rays of the
setting sun of your Indian Summer......
But, perhaps I can give you a rundown of my day yesterday to give you an
idea of what I like to do in my spare time. I don't do NLP for a living.
I do it for fun and to grow myself up. Fair warning, folks! I think this
is going to be a long one. If you have anything important to do for the
next ten minutes or so, you best just click on the next post, and skip
this one.
So, yesterday morning, I spent a few hours with a friend of mine who is
going to face an assessment center process where she will be competing
with 12 other individuals for a slot on a promotional list. 72 others
have already been trimmed from the hopefuls by written knowledge
testing. So this is the cream of the crop. The process is this. The
candidate is given a practical problem to solve and has ten minutes to
gather their thoughts and decide on their strategy and execution. Then
they have 5 minutes to deliver a presentation to one assessor and a
video camera which will be reviewed by the other three assessors as
well. Then those folks will assign a subjective score based on how well
they think the person solved the problem.
So, with my friend, I did a few different/similar things. First we wrote
an Ericksonian induction to be delivered before her presentation as a
short introduction, that will predispose the assessors to like her and
to feel that she would do things exactly the way that they would do
them. The elements of it were to open a loop by inviting a TDS of an
instance in their own experience, that is similar to the given problem,
that they had success in. Then cycle through the VAK to hit whatever
their favored modality is, then attach their experience to my friend,
and close the loop with a rewarding feeling of accomplishment. All in
three sentences or so.
We also discussed rapport and the use of generalities to lessen the
chances of mismatching that would tend to break it.
Then I led her through a state-chaining exercise to build a confident
calm demeanor for her presentation and gave her some anchors to use with
it.
Then we did a practice problem so I could find out what elements she
specifically needed more resources in. Then I hypnotized her and gave
her some process instructions to observe news anchors for how to look
natural on camera. And I future paced her for a few hundred practice
problems and programmed her to dream this practice. And I may have
another session with her in a few days just to touch up some details
after she has had a chance to absorb her changes so far. The assessment
is in about two weeks, so I'll let you know how she does.
Then I had lunch. It was a rousing success of gustatory delight! I had
pudding for dessert.
In the afternoon, another friend of mine came over who has recently
moved back to my city for awhile. He has been gone for seven years or so
and working his ass off in a business that they just sold. So he is
resting and deciding what to do next. In the course of conversation
about Carlos Castenedas stuff, which we have shared an interest in for
some years, he revealed that he is unsure what to do with his life and
that he was having trouble with an ulcer-like problem. After inquiring
if he wanted to be done with that and receiving an affirmative reply, I
hypnotized him as well. It seemed to be a trance filled day for me.
I started by attempting some core transformation work but seemed to just
keep looping through desired states without approaching his problem.
After seven or so rounds of this I tried something else. I regressed him
by having him float down his timeline and picking out the instances that
were related to his stomach problem. Then by looking at them we
discovered that his stomach problem was caused by fear. (surprise
surprise!) Specifically fears leading back to his mother and starting at
a very young age. So I tried some forgiveness work there and his
unconscious agreed to forgive her. And we also built him a few DHE
control knobs for fear and pleasure. Quite interesting there. I was
trying to lead him to build something that would attenuate, and he
insisted on building an on/off switch. Which his fear would not let him
use because it was too drastic. So after a lot of negotiation and the
building of another tiny fear volume-type knob for his stomach to use to
get his attention when it needed to, we gained an ecological agreement
to let him try to deal with his fear levels as a more conscious process.
I then brought him up to normal waking consciousness and we chatted some
more. And in checking my work, found that I had not been successful at
all. He still was speaking about his problem in present tense and his
body language was incongruent. I was quite frustrated by this point.
But, I asked him to drop back down so I could try something else. I do
most of my work in trance myself. It is just easier than trying to keep
track of everything consciously and that way I get the benefit of very
subtle noticings I can use elegantly. (sometimes ;-)
This time I regressed him back to the Initial Sensitizing Event a la
Steve Parkhill and then regressed him back further through his mother's
timeline to when she was a baby. And I had him watch her life and the
things she went through. Whether this is possible is a moot point. If he
just made it all up, it had the desired effect on his beliefs about her,
of making her actions toward him understandable given that she had
barely survived the second world war in Russia. So this time when I
asked him about forgiving her, he was much more congruent in agreeing
and spent a good five minutes integrating that change.When I brought him
back up and checked my work, it appeared to be a success and he reported
to me that it was something he had been fighting his whole life and felt
an incredible burden had been lifted. And his keenly developed sense of
guilt (my observation) seemed to have lessened as well.
Then I went to pick up my daughter from daycare. I went through our
rituals to reinforce her learning that day and gave her lots of positive
reinforcement for the things she was proud of and reframed a tiff she
had with one of her friends for her. We went to the McDonald's drive
through to get some grease. The girl who was at the register was in a
poor state because someone had left the line and the orders were being
mismatched now during their busiest time. So I spent a moment getting
her into a happy and productive state again. Then we drove home.
Later, I went out to meet a guy I met last week who I think is a
promising candidate for NeLPing. He had worked out on his own, some
quite elegant pain control techniques that are pure NLP. But, he had
never heard of it before. He said it took him ten years or so of trial
and error to work out his methods. And was now considering a career in
that because he had found that people were astounded by how effective it
is and he likes helping people. We had a long and deep conversation
about change and he was amazed that I understood what he was talking
about. He had given up on trying to explain himself to others. I showed
him some stuff and we exchanged phone numbers.
Unfortunately, I was late last night and missed him. But, I sat and had
a beer anyway and got into a conversation with a smart and pretty
mortgage broker who was taking a short break from quitting smoking. And
with her friend, the owner of the pub, who was participating with
different three groups of folks, serially. The girl was young, 26, and
quite confident and used to having things her way. And she told me she
had a 95% close rate, which I find a little hard to believe. But, hey,
its a useful belief for her and who knows? Maybe she does. I also told
her that she didn't need to read the book I had recommended, in that
case, Persuassion Engineering. But she then tucked the paper right away
into her purse. Not much of a polarity responder...heheheheh. She then
told me about her love life and travails.
I spent a good bit of enjoyable time parrying her control thrusts and
confounding her. I love that shit! And then finally introduced her to
someone else I met just then and got them set up for a date. She had
told me that she had only been on two "real" dates in her life. It was
really fun to watch them challenge each other. They were really quite
different people who each had massive programmed away-from responses to
each other.(As well as a few toward ones that made it fun for me to play
with) He is a tech guy who builds prototypes and designs machines to
build cars for GM. He drives an older Trans-Am and went to ITT Technical
School. (In the states here, that is considered by some to be very
blue-collar and not college at all) She thought this was hilarious and
very 80's. Not her type at all, by all indications. She on the other
hand, drove a Nissan and had been a State Univeristy student. It slipped
out later that she did not graduate, so I found it even funnier that she
felt superior to him education-wise, based on where she attended, and
gave him no credit for having actually graduated. He was very sparked by
her choice of a non-American built car. And she was pretty snooty too.
Not his type at all. So, it was lots of fun for me to stitch them
together for a date and who knows? Perhaps a relationship. After they
left in his old Trans-Am together, I turned my attentions to some other
people and had more conversational fun. I just love talking to people
and eliciting things from them and challenging their presuppositions.
Then home to bed. I'll also report back on the date if I get a chance to
find out how it went.
So, that was my NeLPing day. A couple of successes and a couple of we'll
see's. Is this what you had in mind? Because that was rather long and
tiring to write about. And I don't think that it is anything remarkable
or the kind of stuff most people here are going to find useful. Its just
another day. So, I probably won't do it again, due to cost/benefit
considerations. I'll probably just post about things I find interesting
and things I have questions about. Or things that I think are unusual in
a NeLPish way. I am going to quote your reply to me and make a few
comments below, though.
Bob Ashley wrote:
>
> On Tue, 30 Mar 1999, Underdog wrote:
>
> > I guess it depends on what you call a success story, doesn't it? I know
> > that I have posted comments and stories about my own personal
> > breakthroughs and those of folks I've worked with. But, they haven't
> > been all that spectacular. Mostly they have been rather mundane tales of
> > taking promtional assessments and raising my daughter. Generative change
> > stuff, that may be profound as hell (the change I mean), but doesn't
> > really lend itself to great drama. Just quiet little things that alter
> > the course of my life like dipping a paddle into the river as I enter
> > the rapids at just the right angle.
>
> Okay, mundane success. Generative change. Quite things. Canoes. Such an
> idyllic tranquility you paint! An nlp pastorale.
>
> Yes, I get your drift that I might have seemed to be begging for Hollywood
> grandiosities of succulent success. But no, this isn't quite what I was
> looking at. Rather my concern was more about what I perceived to be a
> hefty emphasis on method but little accompanying excitement about the
> efficacy. Much fuss about the right labels, the subtleties of theory and
> application. But I don't sense overwheening, overbrimmingness of pride or
> deep satisfactions, even of the 'Indian Summer' watercolour sort you
> describe (and I don't mean this sarcastically either!). And neither do I
> mean desiring big-shot scientistic bruhauhau of the 'study shows...'
> variety.
So, did you study art?
>
> I'm merely wondering...whither goes the tale of success?
Check Deja News. I have a few hundred posts to this group, among which
are several tales of success and some of spectacular failure as well.
>
> I think most of us would consider a full-term, healthy pregnancy a great
> success. Parents and grandparents beam and flowers are pastels of
> jubilant energy. And the reporting! Whoa, can people contain themselves:
> "the baby did this....the baby looks like so-and-so..the baby did that.
> Pictures and videos are taken, hair locks clipped, the memorabilia, the
> altars of love we build. In other words, when people are excited, when they
> do something they're proud of, they mark it somehow.
Yes. Sometimes they do. And sometimes they just trust that those around
them are astute enough to pick it up without fanfare. I guess it depends
on the subject, the company and the context, yes?
>
> Let me risk another analogy: practioners as partners. When (and if)
> success are midwifed (even in canoes!) why does it not seem so much like
> the scene of new parents I just fabricated? Why no 'my client did this',
> I'm so pround of my clients new-found vigor, 'my client, you should see
> her go!, 'I love my job, I revere it, my calling calls.
>
> I know, I know. Going over the top, aren't I. Yes, I suppose. It just
> seems sometimes round these parts, well sometimes it seems
> almost...morose? Maybe that's too strong. How about sober? Whatever I do,
> I say, I'm bound to overgeneralize and I apologize upfront for any person
> I've unfairly branded. Most likely with each word I write I dig myself
> into a deeper and deeper pit.
I have nothing but high regard for anyone who wants to bring a little
more liveliness and humor and good cheer back to this group. Please
continue in your efforts!
>
> Thomas wrote:
> > Remedial change is a little different. But, if it is done well, I've
> > found it usually isn't that big a deal to the person changing. They tend
> > to think that that is the way they've always been. If I meet someone
> > shouting high hosannas about the fantastic and miraculous change that
> > has come over their life, my first thought is why are they so
> > ecologically unbalanced? Have you ever been accosted by a zealous
> > ex-smoker or a twelve-step "recovering" alcoholic? Not my idea of
> > elegant change.
>
> These scenarios of yours, Thomas, make much sense. They seem to speak in
> favour of a special brand of quite humility, something I have no strength
> to overpower. But I might ask if you really think your recreation of my
> position is fairly drawn.
How would I know without testing? That is what calibration is all about.
You try something. If that doesn't work, you try something else.
> I can't imagine anyone saying, 'Yes, you've
> reiterated my position accurately and charitably and intact with all its
> subtleties. Rather it would seem by your lights (at least just at this
> juncture) I'm a quite dim fellow, easily impressed by expansive shows of
> tinsel and pyrotechnical seductions. Well, Thomas, on the 4th of July,
> you'd be exactly right! No, my little project is actually as sober as that
> which i believe I'm encountering and re-encountering as I visit these
> parts daily. Mirroring? Mirrors not only report the convenient or
> expedient, but the awkward and obviating.
I have plenty of room in my model for you to have a good appreciation
for fireworks and the brushstrokes of a softly executed painting. If you
perceive that I somehow think you dim, I ask you to re-read my post with
different presuppostions than the ones you are accustommed to using and
discover why that was not my intent. I did hose you with the last
sentence. But, only because you explicitly stated that you expected it.
I aim to please! ;-)
>
> In any case, if you think I'm an easily awestruck, I should have only
> myself to blame for piling on one or twelve too many adjectives, making my
> post too chocolatey-oozey.
I'm a big fan of adjectives myself. Don't stop on my account.
>
> > So I think for stories of success here, you may have to rely on your
> > peripheral vision a bit more and read the compelling tales that are only
> > there between the lines of focus. For rousing and blatant testimonials,
> > try the sites that are selling stuff. Most of us here are just talking
> > and learning. If you feel dulled, perhaps you can discover why a barber
> > uses a smooth piece of leather to strop his razor instead of a
> > grindstone.
>
> Yes, I like your idea of peripheral vision and this paragraph shows that
> you can exemplify it when you want to. But I'm not looking to be compelled
> for I understand that only myths have enough power to do that. And that's
> fine too: I have quite an inventory of myths I deeply believe in.
>
> And of the barber's strop? What is this so silky sharp as your razor and
> its love affair with soft soft leather, when what built civilization are
> the axes and saws brought bright to stubbly sharpness with the clattering
> sparks of the rough, rough, and ready wheel.
>
> The grit.
Very nice! Very nice.....context makes all the difference, does it not?
>
> Regards,
>
> Rib
Be well done,
Thomas
PS I just couldn't resist the pun on your nickname. Sorry...heheheheh
Dan Scorpio
Well, my interest in NLP started from the point of view of a) literature and
b) (confession time) seduction - but who cares since I'm divorced. I think
the topic has tremendous unexplored areas in literature (I note Underdog
wrote of an Ericksonian type induction for a presentation - and wait while I
show you a copy of the letter thatI'm going to write to the publishers
introducing my epic fairy story heh, heh).
Right, results - difficult to fathom much in my case as I am now
concentrating a lot of my efforts in the area of therepuetic fables - of
which more later.
Wrt 'straight' NLP, using ;'secret therapy' I have helped a friend overcome
a 23 year old phobia of high blood pressure, I have partially helped one out
with a fear of spiders (yet to be confirmed). To be honest, I am
apprehensive of being seen as the local 'faith healer', 'shaman',
'hypnotist' or just plain nutcase, and consequently keep a lot of what I
know under wraps. I've long been known as an amateur writer, so I can write
what I want and nobody gives a hoot (sticks and stones can break my bones):
some find my tales 'delightful', others a bit strange, but the audience is
generally appreciative. So the fables route is probably my way ahead, and
I'm quite happy to use every trick in the NLP book (and a few others that I
know) in order to give my tales impact and penetration.
Of late, and to experiment, I've been writing some hypnotic induction stuff
into some of the stories - just to see what happens. The results? Well,
confusion techniques don't work very well in writing - but embedded commands
do. 'Throw' words don't work very well either, their failure being due, as
with confusion, to the fact that the reader registers that something wasn't
quite right with the phrase(s) and returns to re-read and slowly search for
a meaning (which as I see it wrecks the TDS process). Another thing is that
you can hardly suggest to someone that they close their eyes as in an
induction whilst they are reading. In the SPOKEN form, the induction type
stories work quite well in inducing light trance (I had one friend read a
tale to another: experiment done in distracting environment) and am
confident now that I could pretty easily write a powerful 'literary' fairy
story that could, say, send a child to sleep. I've had an offer from a
friend who writes music to record some of my tales in a studio on top of his
music. That sounds an interesting project (I'm not sure what type of music
he's got though) and I would guess the effects through headphones would be
fairly powerful.
Wrt the therapeutic fables, there is the problem of knowing if, and how
well, they have worked. I've seen tales of there being a period of up to six
months between a story being presented and any effects. I usually look for
someone with a 'problem' and make an appropriate metaphor with an implied
way out. [A friend with some knowledge of Ericksonian therapy - and other
forms - tells me I am totally on track.] On paper, I can't fail (I'm very
careful with my modelling) but how can you tell? Any ideas anyone?? Also,
you got any problems you want modelling? It's a free service here, but I
retain copyright. [btw I'm already working on bulemia].
Hope that gives another perspective.
Dan
Underdog wrote in message <3703AF...@sprintmail.com>...
Bob Ashley
> Hiya Rib,
>
> So, let me ask you this then. Are you lamenting that there is not more
> of success stories here or are you asking to be directed to them or is
> it something else? My post to you was an attempt to perhaps explain
> your perceived dearth and to guide you in a possibly useful direction to
> find more of what you seek. And yet I seem to have missed the mark by a
> somewhat wide margin with you.
To say my 'perceived dearth' is to attempt to resituate the failing in me.
I don't get it. The rhetoric implies that there is no dearth at all, only
that I perceive it so. This becomes salient when I invert it to read 'your
perceived plenty'. We get nowhere with this gentle jockeying.
Second, I am not lamenting. Again this situates in me an emotional word
with connotations of 'whining' or 'bemoaning' when more neutrally
speaking, I was merely 'commenting'. This is how the wee matches of
adversary are struck. Again, I don't get it.
Underdog wrote:
> For the other kinds of conversations that capture my interest, along
> with the assorted flame wars and lexiconic duels often fought on this
> field, there is much discussion of the hows and whys and whens etc. You
> know.....tech talk. And while I'm certain that just about everyone who
> participates here has their share of successes and their share of
> frustrations, it is the new and unusual that tends to get brought up.
This confirms my observation that technique seems to overstands reporting
of success and this, to my way of thinking, runs counter to what we might
actually, or should expect. Only a deadbeat on her birthday asks for a
recipe for her birthday cake, preferring this to blowing out the candles
to make a wish. I submit that a primary focus on technique is the
definition of pedantry. It starves for the poetry of celebration, the
spontaneous which is only what joy can be. When people reach milestones
they shout it to the mountains. Can't help but.
> Underdog wrote:
> While it has been a bit dry here the last few months or so, there have
> been fascinating threads about all kinds of compelling topics. And if
> you care to, you can go to Deja News and do a search or my, or anyone
> else's email address and find thousands of posts from which to glean a
> rich harvest of golden kernals of success in the warm rays of the
> setting sun of your Indian Summer......
I agree, some interesting topics. Let me suggest that if I need to
'search' for success stories, then again, my point stands, that these are
not readily observable or frequent landmarks here. I don't wish to
discredit nlp. I don't believe in blaming one's tools. I take your
literary pastorale of'golden kernels' to be quite a suave move, but it
eludes that question of why neither you apparently, nor I see what we
might expect to see here--jubilant reportage of the most spontaneous sort.
Underdog
<snip a typical underdoggian nlp day!>
Well, that was quite a read! I admire your intensity and perserverance.
I confess that the 'spirit' I sense invested in this post runs counter to
what I've been criticizing.
It's exuberance and it's beautful.
Regards,
Rib
Underdog
>
> On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, Underdog wrote:
>
> >
> > So, let me ask you this then. Are you lamenting that there is not more
> > of success stories here or are you asking to be directed to them or is
> > it something else? My post to you was an attempt to perhaps explain
> > your perceived dearth and to guide you in a possibly useful direction to
> > find more of what you seek. And yet I seem to have missed the mark by a
> > somewhat wide margin with you.
>
Well....y'know Rib....I can only tread so lightly. So, never mind. I
tried to give you answers twice now. And all you appear to see is that
it isn't what you are looking for. So..I give up. You are right. There
is no value here. There is only some guy who is obviously trying to get
the best of you. He could not possibly mean that he understands that you
have not found what you are looking for. He must mean that you are
somehow deficient. So, just ignore him. Perceived dearth indeed! The
nerve of this fellow!!!
> I don't get it. The rhetoric implies that there is no dearth at all, only
> that I perceive it so. This becomes salient when I invert it to read 'your
> perceived plenty'. We get nowhere with this gentle jockeying.
I ain't jockeying. You asked, "Where's the beef?" I have tried to
indicate it. If it is not there for you, move on. What is here, is here.
If it isn't what you want, look elsewhere.
>
> Second, I am not lamenting. Again this situates in me an emotional word
> with connotations of 'whining' or 'bemoaning' when more neutrally
> speaking, I was merely 'commenting'. This is how the wee matches of
> adversary are struck. Again, I don't get it.
I guess not. If you think that my communication to you (which I have
literally spent a few hours on, now) is some attempt to best you or
show you in a poor light, then you are mistaken. I am tired (yes,
fatigued) with the notion of pissing contests. I don't give a flying fig
for being your adversary. I just don't care that much. Hell, I don't
even know you. And if you think that I answer seemingly honest questions
with some diabolical and subtle plot to put people in a bad light...then
fie on you! Quit asking if you don't want an answer. I can only assume
at this point, that you are a troll, and I am a sap for falling for your
bait.
>
> Underdog wrote:
>
> > For the other kinds of conversations that capture my interest, along
> > with the assorted flame wars and lexiconic duels often fought on this
> > field, there is much discussion of the hows and whys and whens etc. You
> > know.....tech talk. And while I'm certain that just about everyone who
> > participates here has their share of successes and their share of
> > frustrations, it is the new and unusual that tends to get brought up.
>
> This confirms my observation that technique seems to overstands reporting
> of success and this, to my way of thinking, runs counter to what we might
> actually, or should expect. Only a deadbeat on her birthday asks for a
> recipe for her birthday cake, preferring this to blowing out the candles
> to make a wish. I submit that a primary focus on technique is the
> definition of pedantry. It starves for the poetry of celebration, the
> spontaneous which is only what joy can be. When people reach milestones
> they shout it to the mountains. Can't help but.
I disagree. But, good for you. Get the hell out of my map if you don't
like it, then. Did you even bother to do a Deja News search? I thought
not. I am here to learn the details. So, your accusations of pedantry
ring hollow with me.
> > Underdog wrote:
> > While it has been a bit dry here the last few months or so, there have
> > been fascinating threads about all kinds of compelling topics. And if
> > you care to, you can go to Deja News and do a search or my, or anyone
> > else's email address and find thousands of posts from which to glean a
> > rich harvest of golden kernals of success in the warm rays of the
> > setting sun of your Indian Summer......
>
> I agree, some interesting topics. Let me suggest that if I need to
> 'search' for success stories, then again, my point stands, that these are
> not readily observable or frequent landmarks here.
So what? Why is this group supposed to meet your imagined expectations?
> I don't wish to
> discredit nlp. I don't believe in blaming one's tools. I take your
> literary pastorale of'golden kernels' to be quite a suave move, but it
> eludes that question of why neither you apparently, nor I see what we
> might expect to see here--jubilant reportage of the most spontaneous sort.
You may expect that. I don't. Try the bi-polar support chats on a good
day.
>
> Underdog
>
> <snip a typical underdoggian nlp day!>
>
> Well, that was quite a read! I admire your intensity and perserverance.
>
> I confess that the 'spirit' I sense invested in this post runs counter to
> what I've been criticizing.
Yeah? Duh! So, you are saying I didn't totally waste three hours writing
something to explain to you what I am about? Well, bite me. I don't
care. Except to the extent that I feel like a putz for wasting my time
trying to answer what I thought was an earnest entreaty. Perhaps I am
just pissy because it is 3 am here and I have just come in from a night
of revelry. But, I doubt it.
>
> It's exuberance and it's beautful.
No. It was a response to your request. If I were exuberant, you would
have no trouble finding this crap all over the newsgroup. And it was
certainly no more than goes on each and every day among the various
people that participate here. It is just that I am the only one who
happened to have the time and inclination to answer you this time. On
other occasions, I have been quiet and let others do the answering. But,
I am beginning to understand the reticence of those who have been around
for longer than I.....It is obvious that you have no appreciation for
that.
>
> Regards,
>
> Rib
Yeah....likewise,
Thomas
PS I hope I am not sorry I wrote this when I wake up tomorrow....but, I
don't think I will be....
Quentin Grady
On Tue, 30 Mar 1999 01:31:23 -0400, Bob Ashley <ax...@chebucto.ns.ca>
wrote:
>Why am I a little discouraged?
>
>Inspired by Zvi's "7% solution" I wonder: why in this newsgroup do we hear
>about the same ratio of success story to methodological discourse. Here
>is an energetic, jubilant concern with matters of technique, nuances of
>method, terministic correctness, the latest literature. The narrative,
>however, seems to have no big place. Where are the stories of inspiration?
G'day G'day Rib,
One of the landmark achievements of mankind was to perceive empty
space. Somewhere between what is there and is countable and what can
be taken away there was this void. For thousands of years people
scalded and insisted that someone should do something with this
unsightly gap. You see there was no symbol for zero. Just a space.
How could there be anything else. Nothing could be a symbol for
nothing it was argued.
In the end it took just one person to wake up one morning and say,
"Get off your butt and write something yourself" to fill the need.
And from that time on the void was filled. All the arguments about
why it hadn't happened before seem so jaded now. Zero was such a
success it multiplied and was added to. Salaries and cheques with
large numbers of zeros became most popular.
All it takes is for one person to stop talking about nothing and to
get on and start writing what they themselves believe in.
If it succeeds, it succeeds and more kudos to you.
If it doesn't, it wasn't worth believing in anyway so nothing is lost.
That is all there is to it.
venus uzynski
I want you to know that I really appreciated your post yesterday where you
talked about how you did NLPy things throughout the day.
It was a very nice example of how NLP can help others in the real world.
Sometimes people get so caught up in all the fancy footwork of the experts that
they figure they can use NLP (yes, and easily practice their skills) day by day
as they go about all their regular routines and errands.
For me, personally, I love using my skills that way. Because I figure the next
person that I run into is just as deserving of being in a pleasant state as the
last. (That is, until they prove different, of course.)
I just like to keep in mind what a wonderful world it could be if everyone felt
so inclined.
So, Thomas, please don't be cranky. YOur post did not fall on deaf ears. And
if I got something out of it (and I already agree with you), then I'm sure it
helped change the outlook of lots of other people out there, too -- even though
they might not have had the chance to write.
Happy Easter and Happy Spring to you and yours, Thomas! :-)
Venus
Bob Ashley
> G'day G'day Rib,
<snip>
> In the end it took just one person to wake up one morning and say,
> "Get off your butt and write something yourself" to fill the need.
> And from that time on the void was filled. All the arguments about
> why it hadn't happened before seem so jaded now. Zero was such a
> success it multiplied and was added to. Salaries and cheques with
> large numbers of zeros became most popular.
> All it takes is for one person to stop talking about nothing and to
> get on and start writing what they themselves believe in.
> If it succeeds, it succeeds and more kudos to you.
> If it doesn't, it wasn't worth believing in anyway so nothing is lost.
> That is all there is to it.
Well, the romance of this tale of 'null' is interesting, and I get this
dim notion that somehow perception of null is best met by "stop talking
about nothing and to get on and start writing..."
This is the second or third reply which has lept to presume that I'm
looking help. No, I'm looking for a dialectic partner, that is someone for
criticism is an 'opportunity' to engage someone, to learn, to contribute,
to solve. Hasty prescriptions for equally hasty diagnoses or prescriptive
aphoristic tales such as this one above do not address my wondering why
there is so little discussion of real live successes and so much
discussion of this or that technique.
I appreciate the tale of null. But to my mind it does all but answer the
question.
I guess I need to lurk for a much longer time in order to better
understand the particular ethos of this group. I guess you could say I've
prematurely ejaculated.
I apologize if my misreadings (and seminal mess) has pissed anybody
off.
Regards,
Rib
Quentin Grady
wrote:
>Well, the romance of this tale of 'null' is interesting, and I get this
>dim notion that somehow perception of null is best met by "stop talking
>about nothing and to get on and start writing..."
Well done.
alt.psychology.nlp doesn't exist to meet your needs.
This is because alt.psychology.nlp doesn't in fact exist except in
title. Each day, every few moments of every day something new is
created here that replaces it.
Oh there have been times when people paraded their successes.
Lots of them. Some were personal. Some were thinly disguised plugs
for various trainers. In each and every case the posts happened
because people wanted to post whatever it was they posted.
That is the way of it here.