Marriage Quaternio
*Philip*
Relationship which has led me to his Marriage Quaternio:
"The shadow can only be realized through a relation to a partner, and
the anima and animus only through a relation to a partner of the
opposite sex, because only in such a relation do their projections
become operative. The recognition of the anima gives rise, in man, to a
triad, one third of which is transcendent: the masculine subject, the
opposing feminine subject, and the transcendent anima. With a woman the
situation is reversed."
I grok this so far. My own anima has been kind enough to reveal Herself
to me as the third. But Jung goes on to say:
"The missing fourth element that would make the triad a quaternity is,
in man the archetype of the Wise Old Man, which I have not discussed
here, and in a woman the Chthonic Mother. These four constitute a half
immanent and half transcendent quaternity, an archetype which I have
called the Marriage Quaternio." (Aion para 42)
Now I'm a bit confused. The Wise Old Man and Chthonic Mother are not
equivalent to the anima and animus and yet in other works of Jung's he
diagrams the marriage quaternio as
Animus
|
|
Husband---------------Wife
|
|
Anima
Where did the Wise Old Man and Chthonic Mother go? What are the Wise
Old Man and Chthonic Mother archetypes? Where can I find more
information on these?
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Malcolm Timbers
> I've been pursuing Jung's thinking on Marriage as a Psychological
> Relationship which has led me to his Marriage Quaternio:
>
anima. Somehow they belong together in an aspect of that archetype.
P.S. Don't let "The Sage" try to convince you that he is the Wise Old
Man because "The Sage" is only a fake.
*Philip*
>
> *Philip* <Ph...@his.desk.fun> wrote in message news:<3C69CF5E...@his.desk.fun>...
> > I've been pursuing Jung's thinking on Marriage as a Psychological
> > Relationship which has led me to his Marriage Quaternio:
> >
> From what I recall of Jung the Wise Old Man is in association with the
> anima. Somehow they belong together in an aspect of that archetype.
I wonder how the Wise Old Man makes his appearance. The Wise Old Man
archetype seems so much different than the anima and yet is associated
with it. Could this be related to Jung's dreams of the Wise Old Man
accompanied by the Young Woman (see MDR). Meaning (Wise Old Man)
joined with Life (Young Woman). This is very Taoist. Perhaps this a CU
complex that so subtle that one first must recognize the anima before it
is possible to perceive that she is accompanied by the Wise Old Man.
Gee, I think I just asked three more questions!
>
> P.S. Don't let "The Sage" try to convince you that he is the Wise Old
> Man because "The Sage" is only a fake.
I've lurked APJ and APSync for several years. Not continuously but
dropping by from time to time listening in on the conversations. Sage
reminds me a little of myself 24 years ago. Since those days I've
accumulated quite a bit of real life experiences ( empirical datum ) and
so my posts to this news group have a POV that is naturally different
than Sage's. Some day the Great Goddess is going to slap him silly. I
have a good friend ( he's about 50 ) who was quite an Atheist. He didn't
believe in anything mystical or spiritual. His favorite expression to
use when asked how he found out about something was "a burning bush told
me". One day while walking down the sidewalk he said that and Lo! a
closeby tree literally _burst_ into flames! That Divine Slap was
sufficient for him.
Philip
The_Sage
>Date written: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:21:08 -0500
>MsgID:<3C6BC7D4...@his.desk.fun>
>Malcolm Timbers wrote:
>>*Philip* <Ph...@his.desk.fun> wrote in message news:<3C69CF5E...@his.desk.fun>...
>>> I've been pursuing Jung's thinking on Marriage as a Psychological
>>> Relationship which has led me to his Marriage Quaternio:
>>From what I recall of Jung the Wise Old Man is in association with the
>>anima. Somehow they belong together in an aspect of that archetype.
>I wonder how the Wise Old Man makes his appearance. The Wise Old Man
>archetype seems so much different than the anima and yet is associated
>with it. Could this be related to Jung's dreams of the Wise Old Man
>accompanied by the Young Woman (see MDR). Meaning (Wise Old Man)
>joined with Life (Young Woman). This is very Taoist. Perhaps this a CU
>complex that so subtle that one first must recognize the anima before it
>is possible to perceive that she is accompanied by the Wise Old Man.
>Gee, I think I just asked three more questions!
I wish I knew the answer myself.
>>P.S. Don't let "The Sage" try to convince you that he is the Wise Old
>>Man
Now why would I do that? That isn't logical therefore it must be
Malcolm's projection of his own inner state.
>>because "The Sage" is only a fake.
A fake what? I never pretended to be anything, exspecially including
an expert on things if I've never studied them before -- unlike like
some people here who have never studied cults, yet they can tell you
without doing any research what certain cult leaders were thinking.
Hint, hint!
>I've lurked APJ and APSync for several years. Not continuously but
>dropping by from time to time listening in on the conversations. Sage
>reminds me a little of myself 24 years ago. Since those days I've
>accumulated quite a bit of real life experiences ( empirical datum ) and
>so my posts to this news group have a POV that is naturally different
>than Sage's. Some day the Great Goddess is going to slap him silly. I
>have a good friend ( he's about 50 ) who was quite an Atheist. He didn't
>believe in anything mystical or spiritual. His favorite expression to
>use when asked how he found out about something was "a burning bush told
>me". One day while walking down the sidewalk he said that and Lo! a
>closeby tree literally _burst_ into flames! That Divine Slap was
>sufficient for him.
You are misinterpreting me. I do not suppress or repress the
unconscious, I merely make it more conscious. That "divinity" you
speak of does not exist outside yourself except as a projection. I
simply do not share those kinds of projections because I have made my
divinity conscious, thanks to Jung.
The Sage
=============================================================
My Home Page : http://home.rmci.net/thesage/Index.htm
"Non-existent extraordinary phenomenon require no
investigation whatsoever" -- Sage
=============================================================
*Philip*
> You are misinterpreting me. I do not suppress or repress the
> unconscious, I merely make it more conscious. That "divinity" you
> speak of does not exist outside yourself except as a projection. I
> simply do not share those kinds of projections because I have made my
> divinity conscious, thanks to Jung.
I'm am glad to hear it. Your posts do seem to be a little different
than they used to be. Keep studying Jung and observing your mind.
Pheryllt25
with one for a man and one for a woman. But each within the marriage
relationship. In other words, replace husband and wife with man and wife, and
replace animus with Wise Old Man, and you have the quaternity for the man in
the marriage relationship in this context. As far as the archetypes of Wise
Old Man and Chthonic Mother go - they could be several things. God and Goddess
- Father and Mother - etc... but there is a specificity here. The motif lies
more like the one of Mother Earth and Father Time or something of the like.
Let me do a little more research on this though and see if I can't give you a
more detailed answer.
*Philip*
>
> Ok, we're no longer dealing with the marriage quaterinity here. We're dealing
> with one for a man and one for a woman. But each within the marriage
> relationship. In other words, replace husband and wife with man and wife, and
> replace animus with Wise Old Man, and you have the quaternity for the man in
> the marriage relationship in this context. As far as the archetypes of Wise
> Old Man and Chthonic Mother go - they could be several things. God and Goddess
> - Father and Mother - etc... but there is a specificity here. The motif lies
> more like the one of Mother Earth and Father Time or something of the like.
> Let me do a little more research on this though and see if I can't give you a
> more detailed answer.
I see, we have two marriage relationship quaternios. One the husband's
and another the wife's. Taking the man for example the quaternio is
himself, his anima, his Wise Old Man, and his wife (the feminine
subject).
I just have bits of information, a few phrases scattered throughout
several of Jungs writings. I hope you can find something where he has
expanded on these more fully.
I think it's in MDR he writes about his dream where Salome and Elijah
visit him, appearing as the young woman and the old prophet. He
questioned the couples relationship. Elijah replied that they had been
together for all eternity. Apparently Salome is his anima and Elijah
his Wise Old Man.
In Mysterium Coniunctionis (para 128) Jung wrote "We know well enough
that the unconscious appears personified: mostly it is the anima who in
singular or plural form represents the collective unconscious. [snip] .
More rarely, the collective unconscious is personified as a Wise Old
Man. (I am speaking here of masculine psychology [snip])"
In Mysterium Coniunctionis (para 313) Jung wrote "In the encounter with
life and the world there are experiences that are capable of moving us
to long and thorough reflection, from which, in time, insights and
convictions grow up - a process depicted by the alchemists as the
philosophical tree. The unfolding of these experiences is regulated, as
it were, by the two archetypes: the anima, who expresses life, and the
Wise Old Man, who personifies meaning."
--
Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to
stick to possibilities; Truth isn't.
-Samuel Clemens