Is freedom a religious or secular idea? / S D Rodrian
Aardvark
http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/2011/02/a_freedom_agenda/all.html?hpid=talkbox1
Freedom is an absolutely (impossible to
separate from) secular idea/principle: How
can anyone possibly conceive of the
illogical and utterly ridiculous notion of
human freedom within the concept of a
life observing/worshipping a "being" (or
creature) "higher" than man?!? Under
such conditions of uncontestable
subservience man becomes a mere slave
(of secondary or little importance even
to himself): Only God is important. Man
matters little or not at all. Therefore, if
men must be sacrificed for the sake of
God, what possible objection could a
mere man raise?!? (And so it is in Islam,
where the one and only way anyone is
guaranteed a direct and unimpeded
entrance into Paradise is to murder as
many human beings as possible while
committing suicide yourself "for God.")
The redeeming peculiarity of Judaism
is told in the story of God asking Abraham
to sacrifice his son--a common practice
in the Middle East then. [Around the same
time, as the Romans were threatening to
destroy Carthage, the "great" Hannibal
ordered the sacrifice of Carthaginian
children, including his own--the Romans,
however, were not impressed by this
pious gesture and eventually wiped
Carthage off the map): But at last the
Hebrew God stops Abraham's sacrifice,
signaling an end to the practice of human
sacrifice from that moment on--at least
for the Jews).
The problem, of course, is fundamental
(and even a humanistic religion like
Judaism escapes it not): There is no god,
of any form/manner or shape, therefore
very human, very mortal men (whether
crazy, wicked, or just plain criminal) are
the ones who "speak" for these gods.
And ultimately become the greatest
and most terrible of tyrants (as in modern
day Iran).
Only when religion (in any & every shape,
manner, and form) is denied a hand in
the governance of men, can men truly
experience freedom. Because only then
can men rule themselves. And that is an
absolute without any qualifications
whatsoever.
S D Rodrian
http://gotopoems.com
http://thesolutionisthis.com
http://verseplace.com
The path to Wisdom
always follows that of Truth:
All religions are local.
Only science is universal.
.
Grand Mal
"Aardvark" <a...@sdrodrian.com> wrote in message
news:c5cf1e7d-a4e9-45e4...@o8g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
> Is freedom a religious or secular idea?
>
> http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/2011/02/a_freedom_agenda/all.html?hpid=talkbox1
>
> Freedom is an absolutely (impossible to
> separate from) secular idea/principle: How
> can anyone possibly conceive of the
> illogical and utterly ridiculous notion of
> human freedom within the concept of a
> life observing/worshipping a "being" (or
> creature) "higher" than man?!? Under
> such conditions of uncontestable
> subservience man becomes a mere slave
> (of secondary or little importance even
> to himself): Only God is important. Man
> matters little or not at all. Therefore, if
> men must be sacrificed for the sake of
> God, what possible objection could a
> mere man raise?!? (And so it is in Islam,
> where the one and only way anyone is
> guaranteed a direct and unimpeded
> entrance into Paradise is to murder as
> many human beings as possible while
> committing suicide yourself "for God.")
Belief in God, theism, is 'A'. Religion is 'B'. All 'A' is 'B'. Not all 'B'
is 'A'.
Jonathan
"Aardvark" <a...@sdrodrian.com> wrote in message
news:c5cf1e7d-a4e9-45e4...@o8g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
>
> http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/2011/02/a_freedom_agenda/all.html?hpid=talkbox1
>
> Freedom is an absolutely (impossible to
> separate from) secular idea/principle: How
> can anyone possibly conceive of the
> illogical and utterly ridiculous notion of
> human freedom within the concept of a
> life observing/worshipping a "being" (or
> creature) "higher" than man?
Wisdom is 'higher' than a single person.
Wisdom requires a diverse base of
knowledge and experience.
Or, freedom!
The problem in most of these kind of
arguments is a cursory knowledge
of religious philosophy.
The oldest continually existing institution
on Earth, The Vatican, would define God
with two basic characteristics. God is that
which is responsible for Creation, and also
unknowable as far as scientific proof.
A 'market force' fits that definition.
Do you believe in market forces?
Do you believe in the uncertainty principle?
Which states that paired properties cannot
both be defined at the same time.
A system and it's properties are 'paired properties'.
One cannot detail a market without dismantling it.
And once you do, it's /properties vanish/ into
thin air.
You cannot understand the physical universe
and the concept of God from the same frame of
reference. One can be 'proven' the other can
only be deduced.
Jonathan
"I never saw a Moor
I never saw the Sea
Yet know I how the Heather looks
And what a Billow be.
I never spoke with God
Nor visited in Heaven
Yet certain am I of the spot
As if the chart were given."
By E Dickinson
s
Aardvark
<greasethew...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> If it is only a secular idea, then
> how strange that the word arose
> before anyone was primarily secular.
I don't suppose you ever heard of the
word "longings" then. You've missed a lot.
> And science offers no genuine freedom;
You are correct: Science offers only facts.
You can do whatever you want with them.
... Oh, wait a minute: That IS freedom!
> you have either determinism or
> stochastic probablistic processes.
> Neither offers freedom. Random
> influences and determines ones
> cannot lead to freedom.
Existence which is NOT deterministic is
Insanity. Probabilities are the refuge of
the timid/coward: We either KNOW or
KNOW NOT. If we know not, then the
solution is to improve our science.
S D Rodrian
http://thesolutionisthis.com
*************************************
On Feb 17, 8:32 pm, "B.T."
<thu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Aardvark,
>
> I believe freedom as a democratic institution
> and freedom as a
> religious warrant for salvation are
> two separate issues.
You are forced to believe what the universe
has programmed into you, of course (not
"what you like"). It is only AFTER this, that
"what you believe" is "what you like to believe."
[Were it not so then we would all expect
all men to have identical beliefs--Whay not?!]
If you believe that the state of slavery is
freedom ... who can remove that belief from
you? Therefore: We can not speak of beliefs
in terms of political freedom: Freedom (political
freedom, if you prefer) NEVER involves beliefs:
It is a universal value (a scientific principle, if
you will). No matter what a people believe
they are experiencing, "political freedom" is
something the manner/shape of which all
human beings must have a vote in, whether
they are part of that people or not. [Many
peoples who are experiencing the worst sort
of tyranny claim it as the greatest freedom
of all ... North Korea, Iran, etc. We know
different.]
> They don't
> cancel each other but each must be made in
> its own separate
> categories.
Principles that cancel each other out are
no longer worth considering.
> Freedom as a political institution is a vote
> for democracy. But
> salvation, on the hand, holds separate
> grammatical intentions in
> understanding.
Indeed. The devil-worshipper can be saved
by sending him straight to Hell.
> Its understanding is that a God
> must have total and
> absolute rights to whether you
> achieve it or not.
God no more exists than Tinker Bell.
God was created by the ignorance of man
(who, owning a brain that MUST find The
Answer to everything, simply makes up
the most convenient answer to questions
for which he has no ready answers: God is
a mere convenience. A figment of man's
stumped imagination. Once we find out
the answer we were originally looking for
when we made up God for it, God is no
longer needed ... and he vanishes in a puff
of smoke! Puff!
[Since we still live in a very barbarous
and ignorant age, God is still with us all
over the place.]
> And in this, they can contradict one
> another if they choose to
> interact.
> This does not discount some good
> intentioned Christians from invoking
> it as a historically Christian idea, but
> in the end, they are speaking
> two different languages.
> This is despite the fact that both salvation
> and democratic freedom
> carries with it terms that would entail
> ethical responsibility toward
> the agent's action. And with this, they
> can exist with each other in
> dialogue.
> However, again, responsibility to one's
> own God is different from
> lawful and ethical responsibility to a
> community existing in freedom.
What responsibility could I possibly
owe Bugs Bunny?!?
The path to Wisdom
always follows that of Truth:
All religions are local.
Only science is universal.
.
> B.T.
RE:
Is freedom a religious or secular idea?
http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/2011/02/a_freedom_agenda/all.html?hpid=talkbox1
Freedom is an absolutely (impossible to
separate from) secular idea/principle:
How can anyone possibly conceive of the
illogical and utterly ridiculous notion of
human freedom within the concept of a
lifetime observing/worshipping a "being"
(or creature) "higher" than man?!? Under
such obvious conditions of uncontestable
subservience man becomes a mere slave
(of secondary or little importance even
to himself): Only God is important. Man
matters little or not at all. Therefore, if
men must be sacrificed for the sake of
God, what possible objection could a
mere man raise?!? (And so it is in Islam,
where in the Koran the one and only way
anyone is guaranteed a direct & unimpeded
entrance into "Paradise" is to murder as
many human beings as possible while
committing suicide yourself "for God.")
The redeeming peculiarity of Judaism
is told in the story of God asking Abraham
to sacrifice his son--a common practice
in the Middle East then. [Hundreds of years
later, as the Romans were threatening to
destroy Carthage, the "great" Hannibal
ordered the "sacrifice" of Carthaginian
children, including his own--the Romans,
however, were not impressed by this
pious gesture and eventually wiped
Carthage off the map]: But at the last
moment the Hebrew God stops Abraham's
sacrifice, signaling an end to the practice
of human sacrifice from that moment on
--at least for the Jews).
The problem, of course, is fundamental
(and even a humanistic religion like
Judaism escapes it not): There is no god,
of any form/manner or shape; therefore
very human, very mortal men (whether
crazy, wicked, or just plain criminal) are
the ones who "speak" for these "gods."
Ultimately they become the greatest and
most terrible of tyrants (as in modern day
Iran). Someone who knows he has NOT
spoken to any god and yet lies about it
for the sake of personal gains is exactly
the kind of vile/contemptible liar who is
minister of God, whether pastor or imam.
Only when religion (in any & every shape,
manner, and form) is denied a hand in
the governance of men, can men truly
experience freedom. Because only then
can men rule themselves according to their
needs. And that is an absolute without
any qualifications whatsoever.
Only when these "so-called democratic"
popular protests begin calling for secular
governments will they be truly democratic
revolutions. And I don't see that happening
yet, or even any time soon. Sorry to say.
Aardvark
<Em...@Yahou.net> wrote:
>
> Wisdom is 'higher' than a single person.
One wise man can surround a million
dunderheads.
> Wisdom requires a diverse base of
> knowledge and experience.
> Or, freedom!
The thing wisdom requires is stupidity
in everybody else.
> The problem in most of these kind of
> arguments is a cursory knowledge
> of religious philosophy.
And a begel.
> The oldest continually existing institution
> on Earth, The Vatican,
Say WHAAAAT?!? The oldest continually
existing institution on Earth is Motherhood
---Well, maybe Sex (it's the old which came
first, the chicken or he egg problem).
> would define God
> with two basic characteristics.
I knew we'd finally agree on something:
God is always defined by man. Without man
defining God, God cannot possibly exist.
> God is that
> which is responsible for Creation, and also
> unknowable as far as scientific proof.
That's why you can find God is a cubicle
the side of a construction site toilet.
> A 'market force' fits that definition.
> Do you believe in market forces?
I'm the only person in these United States
who does!!!! Everybody else wants to control
The Means of Production, instead of putting
all those sonsofbitch drug-users in prison
like it ought to be in a true capitalist society.
> Do you believe in the uncertainty principle?
I'm no sure. Maybe I do, and maybe I don't.
> Which states that paired properties cannot
> both be defined at the same time.
I sometimes wear different socks on each foot.
Does that count?
> A system and it's properties are 'paired
> properties'.
> One cannot detail a market without dismantling it.
> And once you do, it's /properties vanish/ into
> thin air.
Wow! Magic AND grocery store philosophies.
> You cannot understand the physical universe
> and the concept of God from the same frame of
> reference.
You can if you use Windex on your frame,
> One can be 'proven' the other can
> only be deduced.
> Jonathan
I becha didn't know that THAT is the same
exact motto of every carny barker!
> "I never saw a Moor
> I never saw the Sea
> Yet know I how the Heather looks
> And what a Billow be.
Probably somebody's been blabbing to Emily.
> I never spoke with God
> Nor visited in Heaven
> Yet certain am I of the spot
> As if the chart were given."
> By E Dickinson
Me too: "Up." Hell is "down."
Big deal! Emily shoul have gone to school
a few more years.
> > S DRodrian
> >http://gotopoems.com
> >http://thesolutionisthis.com
> >http://verseplace.com
>
> >http://islamisbad.com
>
> > The path to Wisdom
> > always follows that of Truth:
>
> > All religions are local.
> > Only science is universal.
>
> > .
Yeah, that's me.
That's I.
You're not an American, are you.
.
Jonathan
> On Feb 17, 8:05 pm, "Jonathan"
> <Em...@Yahou.net> wrote:
>>
>
> The thing wisdom requires is stupidity
> in everybody else.
>
Then I must thank you for replying, I'm feeling much wiser
for having talked to you.
s
Grand Mal
"Jonathan" <Em...@Yahou.net> wrote in message
news:prednUlfiaU_jf7Q...@giganews.com...
Well, that was pretty stupid.
Aardvark
<greasethew...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 18 Feb, 22:18, Aardvark
<a...@sdrodrian.com> wrote:
> > Existence which is NOT deterministic is
> > Insanity.
> And by the way, you restricted it to only
> determinism. How is there
> freedom in a deterministic universe?
I~?
In a non-deterministic universe banana peel
unmade bed. That little cusp which pops out
when one opens a can of Coke. Darius's beard,
a fluffy Puff. How dare you! Candle wax. Hoy
(fried cat's paws). Somebody stole my bicycle!
Betcha I can toss my rocks further than you.
Ketchup soup? Which planet did you say this
was? Uranium cake. How much did you pay for
this? Worm. While strolling through the park one
stolen hub cap, crematorium. You see my point?
You don't have to be a genius to understand this.
Every dog on earth knows this: Watch any dog
and you'll NEVER see it stop before entering a
room and looking to see that it's still a room
before entering. He'll just enter, because he
knows "instinctively" (that means that the
universe has written these instructions into
his brain over millions of years) that the room
he remembers having been there before is there
still and will always be there until somebody
burns down the house for the insurance money.
And he will then never again bother to go to that
room which isn't there any more. Simple stuff.
And for Frankensteiners who tell you that in
super-small places the universe ceases to be
deterministic and becomes Magical! Ask then
how comes it then entanglement works (most
of the time if not all of the time) deterministically.
As does everything else they eventually take
the time to study with time, instead of just
coming up with The Answer instantly. NO:
The answer is that there is NO real freedom
in a deterministic universe, just the brain
fooling itself. The brain is a marvelous tool:
It evolved to predict the future (in an utterly
deterministic universe, that's pretty much
the thing one can do, and ought to do better).
[The future is ALL in the past. Find it there!]
Also, as an aside, the creature carrying the
brain is bound to develop an insanity or two
(especially if it comes to realize it's just a
dumb vehicle for carrying the brain around),
so the brain concocts a fantasy for the poor sap
in which it (he/she) is actually the driver! Ha!
Ha! Ha! What a poor sap!
Somewhere in The Higher Brain there must be
a couple of million cells who, knowing this,
are rolling on the floor laughing their tentacles
off. Now I'm going to type more... Yeah, sure:
You're going to the can. Okay.
Bye now,
The path to Wisdom
always follows that of Truth:
All religions are local.
Only science is universal.
Learn or rue!
.
RE:
Is freedom a religious or secular idea?
http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/2011/02/a_freedom_agenda/all.html?hpid=talkbox1
Freedom is an absolutely (impossible to
separate from) secular idea/principle:
How can anyone possibly conceive of the
illogical and utterly ridiculous notion of
human freedom within the concept of a
lifetime observing/worshipping a "being"
(or creature) "higher" than man?!? Under
such obvious conditions of uncontestable
subservience man becomes a mere slave
(of secondary or little importance even
to himself): Only God is important. Man
matters little or not at all. Therefore, if
men must be sacrificed for the sake of
God, what possible objection could a
mere man raise?!? (And so it is in Islam,
where in the Koran the one and only way
anyone is guaranteed a direct & unimpeded
entrance into "Paradise" is to murder as
many human beings as possible while
committing suicide yourself "for God.")
The redeeming peculiarity of Judaism
is told in the story of God asking Abraham
to sacrifice his son--a common practice
in the Middle East then. [Hundreds of years
later, as the Romans were threatening to
destroy Carthage, the "great" Hannibal
ordered the "sacrifice" of Carthaginian
children, including his own--the Romans,
however, were not impressed by this
pious gesture and eventually wiped
Carthage off the map]: But at the last
moment the Hebrew God stops Abraham's
sacrifice, signaling an end to the practice
of human sacrifice from that moment on
--at least for the Jews).
The problem, of course, is fundamental
(and even a humanistic religion like
Judaism escapes it not): There is no god,
of any form/manner or shape; therefore
very human, very mortal men (whether
crazy, wicked, or just plain criminal) are
the ones who "speak" for these "gods."
Ultimately they become the greatest and
most terrible of tyrants (as in modern day
Iran). Someone who knows he has NOT
spoken to any god and yet lies about it
for the sake of personal gains is exactly
the kind of vile/contemptible liar who is
minister of God, whether pastor or imam.
Only when religion (in any & every shape,
manner, and form) is denied a hand in
the governance of men, can men truly
experience freedom. Because only then
can men rule themselves according to their
needs. And that is an absolute without
any qualifications whatsoever.
Only when these "so-called democratic"
popular protests begin calling for secular
governments will they be truly democratic
revolutions. And I don't see that happening
yet, or even any time soon. Sorry to say.
S D Rodrian