Astrological ,or not?
Peter Lemesurier
Nostradamus's use of astrology (which I rather doubt -- but there you
go!), perhaps I had better finish by just doing a brief analysis of
the French texts by Nostradamus that I posted the other day, given
that at least one person here is no doubt still unable (or unwilling)
to assess them rationally for himself. (Do bear in mind, though, that
what Nostradamus, for 'publicity' purposes, said about what he did
isn't necessarily the same as what he *actually* did !)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Astrological references in the Preface to Cesar:
...de ce que la Divine essence par Astronomiques revolutions m’ont
donne congnoissance...
-- 'what the Divine essence has revealed to me by way of
astrological cycles'
le tout est regi & guberné par la puissance de Dieu inextimable, nous
inspirant non par baccante fureur, ne par lymphatique monument, mais
par astronomiques assertions ...
-- 'inspiring us... by astrological statements'
Combien que aussi de present peuvent advenir & estre personnaiges que
Dieu le createur aye voulu reveler par imaginatives impressions,
quelques secretz de l’advenir accordés à l’astrologie judicielle,
comme du passé...
-- 'Although there may appear and exist today people to whom
God the Creator may have vouchsafed to reveal through imaginative
impressions a few secrets of the future harmonised with judicial
astrology...' [Note: this isn't necessarily a reference to Nostradamus
himself]
le jugement de l’astrologie judicielle: par laquelle & moyennant
inspiration & revelation divine par continuelles veilles et
supputations, avons noz propheties redigé par escript...
-- 'the judgement of judicial astrology, by which -- and
thanks to divine inspiration and revelation during continual vigils
and calculations -- we have drawn up our prophecies in writing...'
jay composé livres de propheties contenant chascun cent quatrains
astronomiques de propheties...
-- 'I have put together books of prophecies each containing a
hundred astrological quatrains of prophecies...'
que par diurne certitude spphetise par administration astronomicque...
-- 'who in the certain light of day prophesies with
astrological assistance...'
Plus:
...au personaige qui predit par la doctrine des astres, & prophetise
par inspireé revelation...
-- 'to the person who predicts via the doctrine of the stars,
and prophesies through divine revelation...'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Astrological references in the Letter to Henri II
...et la plus part composé et accordé à la calculation Astronomique...
-- 'and most of it composed and adjusted in the light of
astrological calculation...
tant que mon calcul astronomique et autre sçavoir s’a peu estendre...
-- 'so far as my astrological calculation and other knowledge
has been able to go....'
conferant les calculations Astronomiques, jouxte mon sçavoir...
-- 'bringing astrological calculations to bear, in conjunction
with my knowledge...'
mais tant seulement selon les sacrees Escritures, et selon la
foiblesse de mon esprit, en mes calculations Astronomiques...
-- 'but this much only according to the Holy Scriptures and
subject to the weakness of my mind while doing my astrological
calculations...'
je mets presque confusement ces predictions, et quand ce pourra estre
et l’advenement d’iceux, pour le denombrement du temps que s’enfuit,
qu’il n’est nullement, ou bien peu conforme au superieur: lequel, tant
par voye Astronomique, que par autre, mesmes des sacrees
Escriptures...
-- '... as much by the astrological route as by any other,
i.e. the sacred Scriptures...'
le tout par doctrine Astronomique, et selon mon naturel instinct...
-- 'all of it through astrological lore, and according to my
natural instinct...'
Et durant icelle supputation Astrologique, conferee aux sacrees
lettres...
-- 'And during this astrological calculation, compared with
the sacred writings...'
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's pretty obvious, then, what the gist of the above is: the
quatrains are claimed by Nostradamus to be based on (a) astrology and
(b) the scriptures (whether at first or at second hand -- and
currently the evidence rather suggests that it was the latter), with a
bit of inspired intuition thrown in.
This means, of course, that there is no real distinction (in the above
respects, at least) between his Prophecies and his provably innacurate
annual Almanachs -- which is not too surprising, given that quite a
few of the Prophecies, as all significant scholars in the field are
well aware, virtually duplicate predictions in the Almanachs, and that
Nostradamus (as is equally well known) claimed divine inspiration for
both.
That said, I have to say that I personally doubt whether the bulk of
either collection of predictions was *really* astrologically based --
but then I have no intention of twisting individual statements from
Nostradamus's 'publicity' in an attempt to try and 'prove' it...
Being unable to see the wood for the trees is one thing: inventing an
entirely imaginary wood and then trying to force the trees to grow to
fit it is quite another!
--
Peter Lemesurier
Michael Johnathan McDonald
> Well, just in case anybody here is still interested in the subject of
> Nostradamus's use of astrology (which I rather doubt -- but there you
> go!), perhaps I had better finish by just doing a brief analysis of
> the French texts by Nostradamus that I posted the other day, given
> that at least one person here is no doubt still unable (or unwilling)
> to assess them rationally for himself. (Do bear in mind, though, that
> what Nostradamus, for 'publicity' purposes, said about what he did
> isn't necessarily the same as what he *actually* did !)
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Astrological references in the Preface to Cesar:
>
> donne congnoissance...
> -- 'what the Divine essence has revealed to me by way of
> astrological cycles'
>
> le tout est regi & guberné par la puissance de Dieu inextimable, nous
> inspirant non par baccante fureur, ne par lymphatique monument, mais
> par astronomiques assertions ...
> -- 'inspiring us... by astrological statements'
>
> Combien que aussi de present peuvent advenir & estre personnaiges que
> Dieu le createur aye voulu reveler par imaginatives impressions,
> comme du passé...
> -- 'Although there may appear and exist today people to whom
> God the Creator may have vouchsafed to reveal through imaginative
> impressions a few secrets of the future harmonised with judicial
> astrology...' [Note: this isn't necessarily a reference to Nostradamus
> himself]
>
> inspiration & revelation divine par continuelles veilles et
> supputations, avons noz propheties redigé par escript...
> -- 'the judgement of judicial astrology, by which -- and
> thanks to divine inspiration and revelation during continual vigils
> and calculations -- we have drawn up our prophecies in writing...'
>
> jay composé livres de propheties contenant chascun cent quatrains
> astronomiques de propheties...
> -- 'I have put together books of prophecies each containing a
> hundred astrological quatrains of prophecies...'
>
> que par diurne certitude spphetise par administration astronomicque...
> -- 'who in the certain light of day prophesies with
> astrological assistance...'
>
> Plus:
>
> ...au personaige qui predit par la doctrine des astres, & prophetise
> par inspireé revelation...
> -- 'to the person who predicts via the doctrine of the stars,
> and prophesies through divine revelation...'
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Astrological references in the Letter to Henri II
>
> ...et la plus part composé et accordé à la calculation Astronomique...
> -- 'and most of it composed and adjusted in the light of
> astrological calculation...
>
> -- 'so far as my astrological calculation and other knowledge
> has been able to go....'
>
> conferant les calculations Astronomiques, jouxte mon sçavoir...
> -- 'bringing astrological calculations to bear, in conjunction
> with my knowledge...'
>
> mais tant seulement selon les sacrees Escritures, et selon la
> foiblesse de mon esprit, en mes calculations Astronomiques...
> -- 'but this much only according to the Holy Scriptures and
> subject to the weakness of my mind while doing my astrological
> calculations...'
>
> je mets presque confusement ces predictions, et quand ce pourra estre
> qu?il n?est nullement, ou bien peu conforme au superieur: lequel, tant
I think the true case in point is that you do not know astrology and
proved this in your miscalculation of the Trigon in your own
interpretation of X. 72.
This proves you have not the lest idea of what you are doing.
As for general information you rely on others for your
interpretations as witnessed in your own books....You have no original
though and just parrot many others in your works.
VI Century
Quatr. 100
"Omnesq; Astrologi, Blennis, Barbari procul sunto," - Nostradamus
This applies to you. You are an amateur.
You didn't predict the Iraqi War ahead of time like you say in
Nov/Dec. 2002. I predicated in April 2002, before the real war talk
when on.. By the time you posted your 2003 web almanac the talk of war
was almost certain. You probably stole the astrological prediction
form me in the first place - like you steal all your other information
from other authors of Nostradamus and use it as your own....
Others saw that it was so accurate I allowed them to put it up on
there sites...
Here is one place.
Astreology:
http://www.angelfire.com/wizard/regulus_antares/bookoflife.htm
Nostradamus report:
Rino
Peter Lemesurier <lem...@bengalliftyethisoutvillas.demon.co.uk> a écrit
dans le message : ef8lnvo2j8kcassc7...@4ax.com...
> Well, just in case anybody here is still interested in the subject of
> Nostradamus's use of astrology (which I rather doubt -- but there you
> go!), perhaps I had better finish by just doing a brief analysis of
> the French texts by Nostradamus that I posted the other day, given
> that at least one person here is no doubt still unable (or unwilling)
> to assess them rationally for himself. (Do bear in mind, though, that
> what Nostradamus, for 'publicity' purposes, said about what he did
> isn't necessarily the same as what he *actually* did !)
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Astrological references in the Preface to Cesar:
>
> ...de ce que la Divine essence par Astronomiques revolutions m'ont
> donne congnoissance...
> -- 'what the Divine essence has revealed to me by way of
> astrological cycles'
(Astronomical) (Astrological)
>
> le tout est regi & guberné par la puissance de Dieu inextimable, nous
> inspirant non par baccante fureur, ne par lymphatique monument, mais
> par astronomiques assertions ...
> -- 'inspiring us... by astrological statements'
(astronomical) (astrological)
Look in the English dictionary to find the difference between the two words.
For the Church at the time, the first one was permitted; the second one was
not , and it is still not!
Rino
Jean Guernon
Rino a écrit :
>
> Peter Lemesurier <lem...@bengalliftyethisoutvillas.demon.co.uk> a écrit
> dans le message : ef8lnvo2j8kcassc7...@4ax.com...
> > Well, just in case anybody here is still interested in the subject of
> > Nostradamus's use of astrology (which I rather doubt -- but there you
> > go!), perhaps I had better finish by just doing a brief analysis of
> > the French texts by Nostradamus that I posted the other day, given
> > that at least one person here is no doubt still unable (or unwilling)
> > to assess them rationally for himself. (Do bear in mind, though, that
> > what Nostradamus, for 'publicity' purposes, said about what he did
> > isn't necessarily the same as what he *actually* did !)
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Astrological references in the Preface to Cesar:
> >
> > ...de ce que la Divine essence par Astronomiques revolutions m'ont
> > donne congnoissance...
> > -- 'what the Divine essence has revealed to me by way of
> > astrological cycles'
> It says: Astronomiques revolutions, not Astrologiques
> (Astronomical) (Astrological)
Exactly.
> >
> > le tout est regi & guberné par la puissance de Dieu inextimable, nous
> > inspirant non par baccante fureur, ne par lymphatique monument, mais
> > par astronomiques assertions ...
> > -- 'inspiring us... by astrological statements'
> It says: astronomiques assertions, not astrologiques assertions
> (astronomical) (astrological)
> Look in the English dictionary to find the difference between the two words.
> For the Church at the time, the first one was permitted; the second one was
> not , and it is still not!
> Rino
> >[snip]
Exactly.
Peter always translate the astronomical stuff Nostradamus talks about by
referring it to astrology. This is impossible. Astrological stuff could go both
ways in those days, but not astronomical stuff, astronomical stuff in French
then (the word astronomique) could never be about astrology, only about
astronomy.
But you need to look at dictionaries from that epoch.
I point out that the Estienne dictionary of 1549 makes a clear distinction
between the two words, http://www.michelnostradamus.org/astrololono1549.jpg and
also note that the later Nicot dictionary, the one that Peter often quotes, also
says the same thing, and that from there we can only refer to the latin.
In all my latin dictionaries, it is always the same thing: If astrologia can
stand for both astronomy and astrology, astronomia always stands only for
astronomy. Check these, or any other):
http://translate.travlang.com/LatinEnglish/dict.cgi?query=astronomia&max=50
http://translate.travlang.com/LatinEnglish/dict.cgi?query=astrologia&max=50
There is a distinction that must be respected. It is not something that can be
permuted. It is only one way that it goes both ways. Again:
- Astrologia (i.e. astrologic, astrologer, astrology), in French then, as in
Latin, could go both ways in those days.
- Astronomia (i.e. astronomic, astronomer, astronomy), in French then, as in
Latin, and Nostradamus could NOT not be aware of that, using these words the way
he did, if one reads properly, but also being the learned scholar that he was,
can ALWAYS only be about ASTRONOMY.
So do you agree that Peter, you will note above, always use words associated
with the consonance "astronomy" in French words like astronomique, etc., to mean
astrology, wrongly.
It ALWAYS refers to astronomy.
Now, in later dictionary, there were more specific nuances, the first dictionary
that was good enough to describe in detail the nuances between the two words was
from Furetière in 1688. There it describes in detail what you can see in part in
modern dictionaries. Here it is on my site (330 KB):
http://www.michelnostradamus.org/astrolono1688.jpg
A bit hard to read. I have put a far better resolution copy of Furetière 1688
dictionary page about this on my angelfire site (instead of my regular site for
bandwidth reason), if you have a fast connection but it is 1.2 MB at:
http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Nosty/astrofuretiere.jpg
But Peter will argue that this was a century later... One HAS to look at the
1544 dictionary and the later Nicot dictionary and look at the meaning of the
words in latin, and believe that people with culture wouldn't make the mistake.
Funny you will NEVER see Peter do the opposite (use words associated with the
consonance "astrology" (like "astrologique") to mean astronomy when it did mean
astronomy OR astrology, in those days. It is possible to use the word
astrologique for astronomy. Anyway, this is very important, he would never use
the terms properly in his pseudo translation. Did he make the research? If so,
why? Because of his agenda?
Update from the Nostradamus research group. Peter acknowledges the
astronomia/astrologia dichotomy, mentioned above, but sweeps them under the rug
saying the XVIth century confused both and finds this trivial. He says that both
were mixed indiscriminately in those days without giving any example, and still
maintains his position on that.
So you see, Rino, people have the choice:
1. They can do, like Peter, does, trivialize a tremendous texts about true
prophecies, like the letters are, and pretend that astronomy refers to astrology
when everything shows that it can only be the other way around, in order to
consider the prophecies are simple plagiarism of old texts based on some
similarities between SOME words, not the exact wording, or even meaning, of
sentences, even between almanacs, and those of the texts in "the Centuries", no
other text says the same thing as that prophetic work. Or
2. they can believe Nostradamus. But to know what he really says in the
prophetic work, they have to rely on us. Or
3. they can do both. Why not. Peter comes up with some things sometimes that are
useful to the real exegetes. It is not a total waste of time, far from it. But
this if for researchers like us. As far as prophecies themselves go, which is
what the people need to know about, since Peter tries to trivialize them and the
Seer himself, it is hard to see the benefit. If one can undoubtedly benefit
sometimes from occasional finds from his research, the trivialization of the
Seer importance, by trivializing his own words in order to make him look at best
like an incompetent astrologer, adn at worst like a plagiarist, cannot (and
clearly does not) make him appreciate the true value and prophetic nature of the
Centuries. But maybe there is some other benefit for people, nopt only some for
us researchers? What do you think?
J.
Rino
Jean Guernon <jgue...@globetrotter.net> a écrit dans le message :
3F7C6E45...@globetrotter.net...
understand those two words, since Nostradamus had the choice to write
"astronomique" or "astrologique"
Rino