owwwww
'mathochist' Angela Long
Looks like the end of a two and a half year relationship. I
can't believe this is happening. My kids are all crying, and
so am I.
We'd been through the same argument before. He had plans with
me, to stay for another hour, when his wife called, asked him
out to lunch, and without even checking with me, he told her
he'd go. He'd promised not to do that any more, not to break
plans without checking with me first unless something emergency-
level came up. He knew how strongly I felt about it. And he
just coldly walked out the door, shrugging and saying "things
come up."
It hurt so much that he could so easily break an agreement he
knew was so important to me, so calmly do something he knew
would hurt me. I sent email, told him that if this was the
way he was going to keep treating me, not to come back. I
love him so much, but how can I keep being hurt the same way
over and over? It was even one of the things that came up in
the counseling session the three of us went to a few weeks ago,
and there he'd reiterated his agreement not to break plans that
way any more. Then, he said he understood how important it was
... now... I guess he's forgotten.
I sent more email later, asked him to come take my collar off
if this was going to keep going on. My daughter said I should
give him "just a few more chances." And I would have, if he'd
offered an apology and acted willing to try harder again. But
instead he came, ignored me at first and sat on my porch working
on my lawnmower (a project he'd started yesterday) while I cried
and tried to figure out what I should do, not knowing what to
say. Finally he came in and asked me to "talk," but I still
didn't know what to say. He tried to say he didn't know what
he'd done wrong. I reminded him that we'd had this argument
before. "One minute, we're talking about what we're going to
do together for the next hour; the next, the phone rings, you
make other plans *without even checking with me*, and you're
out the door." "Oh." And after a few minutes of silence, he
tossed the key to my collar at me and walked away. He tinkered
with the lawnmower for a few more minutes while I asked him if
there was really nothing more to talk about, if I wasn't even
worth apologizing to. "Apology? What for?" And he walked
away, the kids running after him.
Now my younger two are saying, "we've got to find a way to
get him back!" My oldest says, "your collar was off before,
and you put it back on. He'll come back." I tell them I
don't know if he'll be back this time. If he's not even
willing to make an apology when he breaks an agreement, I'm
not sure I should want him back. But how am I going to help
them deal with this? He's been their "step-step-daddy" for
so long. How can they understand this, when I can't?
Things were going so well. We'd had a session with the coun-
selor a couple months ago, and the tension between his wife
and me had eased a lot, I thought. We'd had a tiff last
month, about the possibility of him moving out of the area,
and he'd apologized afterward and promised to do everything
he could to stay near me. He said I was worth that. We had
a weekend camping together planned for next week, some one-
on-one time to escape from the world, and I was looking for-
ward to it a lot. There weren't any problems anywhere near
worth breaking up over that I could see, and now this. And
I don't get it. I didn't think this should be worth breaking
up over, either; I thought I would be worth an apology to
him, after all this time. I'm dumbfounded. I don't get it.
Was I asking too much? I didn't ask him to never change plans,
only to *ask* me before changing something he had planned with
me. If he had stopped before getting off the phone yesterday
and *asked* me if I'd mind if he left a little early, it would
never have been a problem. He tried saying that his wife never
gets upset when he cancels plans on her. I'm not sure I be-
lieve that, but at any rate, that's between them, and I don't
think that what upsets *her* is relevant to what upsets *me*.
He tried saying that spending an hour with me wasn't a "plan,"
since we hadn't decided exactly what to do with it yet. But
we *had* planned to spend it together!
He acted like this was just too high an expectation for him
to live up to. Like I was asking for some huge sacrifice.
Was I? Is *checking* with me before canceling time he's led
me to count on spending with him too much to ask? Am I crazy?
--
-- Angi :)
Mary Malmros
'mathochist' Angela Long (angi...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: Looks like the end of a two and a half year relationship. I
: can't believe this is happening. My kids are all crying, and
: so am I.
:-(
: We'd been through the same argument before. He had plans with
: me, to stay for another hour, when his wife called, asked him
: out to lunch, and without even checking with me, he told her
: he'd go. He'd promised not to do that any more, not to break
: plans without checking with me first unless something emergency-
: level came up. He knew how strongly I felt about it. And he
: just coldly walked out the door, shrugging and saying "things
: come up."
Ow. *wince* Been there. Got treated bad just like that.
: It hurt so much that he could so easily break an agreement he
: knew was so important to me, so calmly do something he knew
: would hurt me. I sent email, told him that if this was the
: way he was going to keep treating me, not to come back. I
: love him so much, but how can I keep being hurt the same way
: over and over? It was even one of the things that came up in
: the counseling session the three of us went to a few weeks ago,
: and there he'd reiterated his agreement not to break plans that
: way any more. Then, he said he understood how important it was
: ... now... I guess he's forgotten.
It might not be forgetting, exactly. It sort of sounds more like it's a
pattern. People can understand that they have a pattern of behavior that
is not good. They can agree that it's bad, that it should be changed,
that it MUST be changed. But that doesn't make the pattern go *poof*.
: I sent more email later, asked him to come take my collar off
: if this was going to keep going on. My daughter said I should
: give him "just a few more chances." And I would have, if he'd
: offered an apology and acted willing to try harder again. But
: instead he came, ignored me at first and sat on my porch working
: on my lawnmower (a project he'd started yesterday) while I cried
: and tried to figure out what I should do, not knowing what to
: say. Finally he came in and asked me to "talk," but I still
: didn't know what to say. He tried to say he didn't know what
: he'd done wrong. I reminded him that we'd had this argument
: before. "One minute, we're talking about what we're going to
: do together for the next hour; the next, the phone rings, you
: make other plans *without even checking with me*, and you're
: out the door." "Oh." And after a few minutes of silence, he
: tossed the key to my collar at me and walked away. He tinkered
: with the lawnmower for a few more minutes while I asked him if
: there was really nothing more to talk about, if I wasn't even
: worth apologizing to. "Apology? What for?" And he walked
: away, the kids running after him.
*sigh*
I dunno, Angie...again, I can read that a couple of different ways. One
is that he didn't think he should have to apologize for misbehavior. The
other is that he felt that there was no point, because an apology wouldn't
fix things, and he knew that he couldn't change his pattern of behavior.
: Now my younger two are saying, "we've got to find a way to
: get him back!" My oldest says, "your collar was off before,
: and you put it back on. He'll come back." I tell them I
: don't know if he'll be back this time. If he's not even
: willing to make an apology when he breaks an agreement, I'm
: not sure I should want him back. But how am I going to help
: them deal with this? He's been their "step-step-daddy" for
: so long. How can they understand this, when I can't?
They're not going to understand it the same way you do, no matter
what. How they, and you, reconcile yourself to the situation, is still
another matter. I dunno, Angi. As an adult, I can understand that there
are people I may love like crazy and desire deeply and want or need to be
with...but who are bad for me to be around. I've loved people who loved
me, but couldn't treat me right. I've loved people who loved me, but
couldn't stop doing things that were destructive of themselves or of our
relationship. As an adult, I can walk away from such people, although it
pains me deeply. As a child, I know that I could not...but a lot of that
was because the people I needed to walk away from -- my parents -- were
the only people I had. Your kids are in a different situation. I hope
they'll make out better.
: Things were going so well. We'd had a session with the coun-
Short answer: no, you're not.
Long answer: this is one of my least favorite polyamory problems, one that
I believe is intrinsic to "primary" and "secondary" relationships. It's a
hierarchy, and when there are so many hours in a day, so many nights to
spend together, the partner at the top of the hierarchy is going to get
the best and the most.
Some people -- very few, IMO -- go into this with their eyes open. They
explain, upfront, that the primary's needs and desires will _always_ come
first, in all situations: if the secondary is about to undergo an
emergency appendectomy, and the primary wants hir back rubbed, then the
primary is going to get the attention. Extreme example? Perhaps, but
that's the logical outcome of always placing the primary first.
Others -- again, IMO, very few -- set constraints on their relationship
with a secondary, but still grant the secondary some rights. The
agreement might be that the secondary will maintain a separate residence,
for example, or that the person will always spend the night with hir
primary, or that the person will spend holidays with the primary and the
primary's family. Whatever. But at the same time, the secondary is given
things on which sie can depend: maybe sie gets to spend every Thursday
night with hir partner, for example, or a weekend a month, or whatever.
The particulars don't matter. What matters is that expectations are set
on all sides, and that the secondary is given some guarantees, some
promises that won't be broken (or at least, not without real serious
compelling reason).
Put bluntly, I think that anyone who blows off time that sie had agreed to
spend with hir partner on a whim is a fucking asshole who needs to learn
to relate honestly and decently to one person before sie graduates to
two. I think that all people who enter into a primary/secondary
relationship need to think about what the hell they're doing: can you keep
your commitments? Does your primary partner understand and accept what
that means? If you're a secondary, can you live with what you've been
promised? Very few people deal with this upfront, and those who do are
often insincere or unrealistic, and that's why it goes splat. But none of
that helps after the fact.
Angi, it seems like this partner of yours has basically proven himself to
be unreliable. It seems like you cannot depend on him for _anything_.
The only question you need to ask is whether you, and your kids, can live
with that. Can you live with being blown off on a whim? Because when you
ask him to keep his promises, you're not asking for anything
_unreasonable_...but it sounds like you are asking for something he's not
capable of. It doesn't matter how reasonable it is, if he's just not up
to it.
Best of luck,
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros Very Small Being mal...@id.wing.net
We must conclude that Amendment 2 classifies homosexuals not to
further a proper legislative end but to make them unequal to
everyone else. This Colorado cannot do. A state cannot so deem
a class of persons a stranger to its laws.
- US Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy
Writing for the majority
5/20/96
Elf Sternberg
Oh, quit whining.
Elf !!!
Elf Sternberg I'm not inclined to write pompous
e...@halcyon.com books about unanswerable questions.
Public key available That strikes me as a tremendous waste
http://www.halcyon.com/elf of time.
- Stephen Jay Gould
Arnold Vance
In article <4tgvi2$p...@shore.shore.net>,
I believe there is much to reflect on in what she said and you said.
And now that you both've offered up the AP Dr.'s seat to me, let me set my
old bones down and offer up some free advice and counsel. As is the case
with all the medicine I dispense to my patience, take it or leave it, as
you will. (AP = armchair psychologizing)
Just to set the stage, it sounds like you've got a complex and complicated
situation there. No problem. That's why you've come to us, Angi.
Dr. Malmros spoke eloquently of many things. Some of the words that come
to mind are: promises, reliability, reasonableness, depend, expect,
rights, guarantees, commitments. But when all is said and done, these are
but words. What gives one confidence that they have any validity at all
is firstly the articulateness with which they are delivered, and secondly
that their usages match "reality"--as one perceives it. Let's ignore the
idea that these usages modify ones perceptions of reality, and vice versa.
That's for high priests and other clownish characters.
(Though it is good to keep in mind that one may get conned at any time.)
I do think Dr. Malmros may have been a bit rash in her assessment that
_it seems like_ (my emphasis--we sometimes burst out at the seems!)
your partner has proven himself unreliable and that he cannot be depended
upon for _anything_. It is clear you have a deep relationship with this
partner. 2.5 years and the kid's relationship to him are but the initial
indicators.
However, I agree with her final conclusion: The only thing you need to ask
is whether you can live with that. But the light in which I'd like that
question posed is somewhat different. Let me get back to those "words".
What I want to suggest is that there are factors outside the realm of
plans, promises, commitments, etc. that have to be weighed in your
decision (or lack thereof) here.
Naturally, you do that without my saying so--I'm just expressing myself.
But I do sense, from what I've heard from the other Drs. in our little
conclave, that short shrift is sometimes given to this "outside realm"
as opposed to the more easily mouthed sentiments of "honesty", "openness",
"communication", etc. I hear echoed with some regularity.
And in truth this "other realm" may not be articulated, but in spite of that
it mostly makes up how one judges someone or something to be worthy and
worthwhile.
(Fact is, we are so in love with the moment of ecstasy,
we create entire systems to try to extend and expand it to eternity)
Remember the discussion on NRE (new relationship energy)? My feeling
is that there is an analogous syndrome called ORT (old relationship
trough), and that may be the place you are in now. I have certain
misgivings about calling this a "diagnosis", but there it is, and I'll
stand by it. (Others may not be able to stand it at all.)
On the other hand, whether this is the coda in a sweet fugue you have
been composing, or just a momentary blip on your road to.....
....is up to you.
-arn
P.S. Apology? Rhetoric that means nothing but may utterly satisfy. Or not.
Mean Green Dancing Machine
In article <4tj0bd$6...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
Allison Floyd <cyp...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu> wrote:
>Elf Sternberg (e...@halcyon.com) wrote:
>:
>: Oh, quit whining.
>
>eh? Was that really called for? Last I checked, it was supposed to
>be okay for people to have feelings, even painful ones. Angi's post
>didn't sound much like "whining" from this perspective; it sounded
>rather as though there was a situation she found untenable, and it
>caused a rift in her relationship, and she was unhappy about that.
You ask that only because you don't know that Elf is the partner that
Angi is talking about.
While I agree to a certain extent with Elf's comment, saying so in
public is extremely rude, particularly in the context of a support
group (which I believe is one of the functions of alt.poly). So is
posting a comment about Angi's situation without making it clear that
he is one of the participants. Many people would also say that any
public argument within a relationship is rude.
The simplest thing to do when someone is being rude is to ignore zir.
--
--- Aahz (@netcom.com)
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6
Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het
'mathochist' Angela Long
Mary Malmros <mal...@shore.net> wrote:
>'mathochist' Angela Long (angi...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
>: and there he'd reiterated his agreement not to break plans that
>: way any more. Then, he said he understood how important it was
>: ... now... I guess he's forgotten.
>It might not be forgetting, exactly. It sort of sounds more like it's a
>pattern. People can understand that they have a pattern of behavior that
>is not good. They can agree that it's bad, that it should be changed,
>that it MUST be changed. But that doesn't make the pattern go *poof*.
I know. But I never expected it to go *poof*. All I expected was
an apology when he did screw up, and the willingness to keep trying.
He *had* pretty much broken the pattern he'd started to get into a
few months ago, and this was really the first repetition of it in a
long time. Of course I was hurt, but all I really wanted was an
"oops, I screwed up, I'm sorry, I wasn't thinking this time."
>: (...) And after a few minutes of silence, he
>: tossed the key to my collar at me and walked away. He tinkered
>: with the lawnmower for a few more minutes while I asked him if
>: there was really nothing more to talk about, if I wasn't even
>: worth apologizing to. "Apology? What for?" And he walked
>: away, the kids running after him.
>I dunno, Angie...again, I can read that a couple of different ways. One
>is that he didn't think he should have to apologize for misbehavior. The
>other is that he felt that there was no point, because an apology wouldn't
>fix things, and he knew that he couldn't change his pattern of behavior.
He knew I didn't expect him to be perfect. And that an apology
would have fixed things, was exactly what was needed to fix
things... it always had before. He sent me a brief email that
basically said that I'm just not worth apologizing to any more.
:(
>I dunno, Angi. As an adult, I can understand that there
>are people I may love like crazy and desire deeply and want or need to be
>with...but who are bad for me to be around. I've loved people who loved
>me, but couldn't treat me right. I've loved people who loved me, but
>couldn't stop doing things that were destructive of themselves or of our
>relationship.
Yeah. *sigh* But what's so hard to accept is that it's not
so much "couldn't" as "wouldn't." I can't believe he "couldn't"
apologize.
>: He acted like this was just too high an expectation for him
>: to live up to. Like I was asking for some huge sacrifice.
>: Was I? Is *checking* with me before canceling time he's led
>: me to count on spending with him too much to ask? Am I crazy?
>Long answer: this is one of my least favorite polyamory problems, one that
>I believe is intrinsic to "primary" and "secondary" relationships. It's a
>hierarchy, and when there are so many hours in a day, so many nights to
>spend together, the partner at the top of the hierarchy is going to get
>the best and the most.
I don't think this one is about heirarchy, though. I don't
think he put her wants ahead of mine. What he did was put
his own whim of the moment ahead of everything else -- my
feelings, our relationship, probably his own long-term wants.
>Some people -- very few, IMO -- go into this with their eyes open. They
>explain, upfront, that the primary's needs and desires will _always_ come
>first, in all situations: if the secondary is about to undergo an
>emergency appendectomy, and the primary wants hir back rubbed, then the
>primary is going to get the attention. Extreme example? Perhaps, but
>that's the logical outcome of always placing the primary first.
Our agreement was always just about the opposite of that: that
if it came down to a choice between the relationships, he would
probably choose her, but short of that, he wouldn't put either
of our wants de facto "first."
>Others -- again, IMO, very few -- set constraints on their relationship
>with a secondary, but still grant the secondary some rights. The
>agreement might be that the secondary will maintain a separate residence,
>for example, or that the person will always spend the night with hir
>primary, or that the person will spend holidays with the primary and the
>primary's family. Whatever. But at the same time, the secondary is given
>things on which sie can depend: maybe sie gets to spend every Thursday
>night with hir partner, for example, or a weekend a month, or whatever.
>The particulars don't matter. What matters is that expectations are set
>on all sides, and that the secondary is given some guarantees, some
>promises that won't be broken (or at least, not without real serious
>compelling reason).
I think anybody, no matter what "type" of relationship they
have or label they hold, should be able to depend on plans
being kept once they're made, or changed only by mutual con-
sent, unless something really compelling comes up. I don't
see how it could fail to hurt anyone to have a plan they'd
looked forward to suddenly unilaterally yanked away.
>Put bluntly, I think that anyone who blows off time that sie had agreed to
>spend with hir partner on a whim is a fucking asshole who needs to learn
>to relate honestly and decently to one person before sie graduates to two.
Exactly.
>Angi, it seems like this partner of yours has basically proven himself to
>be unreliable. It seems like you cannot depend on him for _anything_.
>The only question you need to ask is whether you, and your kids, can live
>with that. Can you live with being blown off on a whim?
No. I can live with an occasional mistake. In any relation-
ship, there are going to be mistakes sometimes. I can't live
with the unwillingness to keep dealing with those mistakes as
they come up, to keep apologizing and considering the rela-
tionship worth going through that for.
For the first time in weeks, I had been too tired and hot to
be horny. I can't help thinking that that was why he was so
eager to run off without checking with me when something more
fun came up. It seems like if we weren't going to be having
sex, I wasn't worth being with.
Running away is always his first response to problems. And
in the past he's always come back and been sorry, after not
too long. The responsible side of him has come to the fore.
That would probably be easier to take if we were living to-
gether, because by the time he could get packed, that initial
urge to run would be gone, and I'd know even while he was
acting crazy that we'd at least probably get another chance
to talk rationally. But the way things are, I don't *know*
whether he's going to come back sorry in a day or two, or
whether I'll just never see him again.
--
-- Angi :)
Allison Floyd
eh? Was that really called for? Last I checked, it was supposed to
be okay for people to have feelings, even painful ones. Angi's post
didn't sound much like "whining" from this perspective; it sounded
rather as though there was a situation she found untenable, and it
caused a rift in her relationship, and she was unhappy about that.
Were you of the opinion that the basis for her feelings was invalid?
If so, why?
Allison
phil
In article <4th9fm$n...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>, 'mathochist' Angela Long
<angi...@u.washington.edu> writes
.....
If this group served any function I would see it having a support
role when people such as yourself suffer personal conflicts. I
know that I do not share a lot of your views and I cannot offer
any useful advice for you at this time, but my sympathies are
with you and I hope you will overcome these problems soon.
I live thousands of miles away so I can be honest and not feel that
I am trying to 'score' with you or look good in front of everyone
(I don't want to jeopardise my membership of Losers Anonymous).
--
Snorky I never read the FAQ either!
P.S. Sounds like your 'ex' needs a good kicking! What a jerk!!
phil
In article <4th9ps$p...@news1.halcyon.com>, Elf Sternberg
<e...@halcyon.com> writes
> Oh, quit whining.
>
> Elf !!!
Is that your own brain or are you running it in for an idiot?
--
Snorky
Arnold Vance
In article <4tjvj8$3...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>,
'mathochist' Angela Long <angi...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>Mean Green Dancing Machine <aa...@netcom.com> wrote:
>
><Cut>
>And I'm sorry for turning for support to a place he might read.
>I wish I had a more appropriate place to turn. I know it's my
>own fault I don't. I wished he would have enough respect to
>leave alone what I have of a support group here, but the facade
>of privacy is broken now, and I don't think I feel comfortable
>here any more.
>
Angi, personally, I urge you to stay. For a # of reasons:
-the facade of privacy is just that--a facade.
-if you leave, it looks like a hit and run. I'm not saying it is,
it just looks that way.
-if you leave, only Elf's perspective remains.
-it may not be entirely comfortable, but isn't one of the "ideals" of
Polyamory dealing with hard, nonstandard problems? Provide an
example to the community on how a polywise person deals w/ adversity.
-instead of a partially-forgotten or half-imagined situation, here is
a being-lived-in-the-flesh one. Let the group interact.
-having the courage to go public is gutsy; go all the way.
It may have exorcistic and therapeutic value.
-I don't believe your relationship with Elf is over--now that you've
broken the news to the group, maintain the dialogue.
Elf,
-let's hear your side; why is it just whining?
Whatever both of you do do, good luck.
-arn
'mathochist' Angela Long
>public is extremely rude, particularly in the context of a support
>group (which I believe is one of the functions of alt.poly). So is
>posting a comment about Angi's situation without making it clear that
>he is one of the participants. Many people would also say that any
>public argument within a relationship is rude.
And I'm sorry for turning for support to a place he might read.
I wish I had a more appropriate place to turn. I know it's my
own fault I don't. I wished he would have enough respect to
leave alone what I have of a support group here, but the facade
of privacy is broken now, and I don't think I feel comfortable
here any more.
--
-- Angi :)
piranha
In article <4tghou$e...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>,
>can't believe this is happening. My kids are all crying, and
>so am I.
*sigh*. sorry to hear this after noticing things seemed
to be going better for a while.
>We'd been through the same argument before. He had plans with
>me, to stay for another hour, when his wife called, asked him
>out to lunch, and without even checking with me, he told her
>he'd go. He'd promised not to do that any more, not to break
>plans without checking with me first unless something emergency-
>level came up. He knew how strongly I felt about it. And he
>just coldly walked out the door, shrugging and saying "things
>come up."
you know, it sounds to me like one of two things (could
be something else, but these came up): either he's just
an inconsiderate person in general and does just as it
pleases him in the moment, or he's got himself a pattern
there that he realizes he should change, but hasn't got
a grip on yet (and might not be able to get a grip on).
>It hurt so much that he could so easily break an agreement he
>knew was so important to me, so calmly do something he knew
>would hurt me. I sent email, told him that if this was the
>way he was going to keep treating me, not to come back.
whoa. is this a case of the straw breaking the camel's
back, or did you think a big threat would get thru to
him where nothing else did?
>I
>love him so much, but how can I keep being hurt the same way
>over and over?
this is what i mean when i say "love is sometimes not
enough". i've been there. and with some people i love
dearly i can simply not live without hurting too much.
and then the only solution is to not live with them,
since i am not willing to live my life in pain.
that is a very hard choice to make. but it might be
worth thinking about, as clearly as possible. how much
does it hurt and how often are you in pain? what's the
threshold? are you always pushing it?
>It was even one of the things that came up in
>the counseling session the three of us went to a few weeks ago,
>and there he'd reiterated his agreement not to break plans that
>way any more. Then, he said he understood how important it was
>... now... I guess he's forgotten.
i realize you were upset, and there's obviously plenty
of history here, but somebody saying zie understands it's
important isn't what actions hinge on sometimes. maybe
he didn't forget, maybe he just didn't realize this was
one of those occasions that were important to you. i'm
not trying to make excuses for him, mind you.
>I sent more email later, asked him to come take my collar off
>if this was going to keep going on.
??? this must be a BDSM thing, yes? i didn't know one
carried that sort of stuff into real life. wow. if this
isn't too much to ask at this time, what does that mean?
is this akin to returning an engagement ring?
>And I would have, if he'd
>offered an apology and acted willing to try harder again. But
>instead he came, ignored me at first and sat on my porch working
>on my lawnmower (a project he'd started yesterday) while I cried
>and tried to figure out what I should do, not knowing what to
>say.
sounds to me like he didn't much know what to say either,
therefore the lawnmower. i do that when i am all out of
words, and am afraid whatever i say will just explode the
situation; then i'll work with my hands.
>Finally he came in and asked me to "talk," but I still
>didn't know what to say. He tried to say he didn't know what
>he'd done wrong. I reminded him that we'd had this argument
>before. "One minute, we're talking about what we're going to
>do together for the next hour; the next, the phone rings, you
>make other plans *without even checking with me*, and you're
>out the door." "Oh." And after a few minutes of silence, he
>tossed the key to my collar at me and walked away. He tinkered
>with the lawnmower for a few more minutes while I asked him if
>there was really nothing more to talk about, if I wasn't even
>worth apologizing to. "Apology? What for?" And he walked
>away, the kids running after him.
hm. that sounds really odd to me. did you represent
what was said accurately? or was it a lot more heated?
it sounds, again, off the top of my head, as if one of
two things happened -- either he just has no idea how
to communicate in this situation, and somehow the way
you talked (you even said you didn't know what to say)
just really went against his grain and he felt cornered,
or he's getting tired of the relationship status and is
looking for a way out.
>Things were going so well. We'd had a session with the coun-
>selor a couple months ago, and the tension between his wife
>and me had eased a lot, I thought. We'd had a tiff last
>month, about the possibility of him moving out of the area,
>and he'd apologized afterward and promised to do everything
>he could to stay near me.
you guys have "tiffs" over a whole bunch of things that
i consider to be pretty darn major (buying a house toge-
ther, having kids together). it just sounds...i dunno
how to phrase this politely, *sigh*. it sounds to me
like you're not on the same wavelength about a lot of
things (you all, you three, i mean). maybe this is the
result of primary/secondary attitudes -- it's certainly
something i couldn't do, be a secondary when it becomes
so obvious that my place is truly secondary, that my
wishes and dreams will only come second to those of my
partner's primary.
maybe you can't do it either, and much of the tension
stems from you wanting to be a true second primary in-
stead of a secondary? i'm just wondering.
>He said I was worth that. We had
>a weekend camping together planned for next week, some one-
>on-one time to escape from the world, and I was looking for-
>ward to it a lot. There weren't any problems anywhere near
>worth breaking up over that I could see, and now this. And
>I don't get it. I didn't think this should be worth breaking
>up over, either; I thought I would be worth an apology to
>him, after all this time. I'm dumbfounded. I don't get it.
well, to be precise, you are the one who initiated the
break-up, so you might want to ask yourself whether you
didn't overreact, since you now think it wasn't worth
breaking up over.
i'm very, very careful with threats about break-ups --
i do not make them unless i am truly certain that this
is what i want -- if i want an apology, i will ask for
the apology instead. if i can't go on without the apo-
logy, i'll say that too, but only after i asked and did
not get it, and got no responses to my questions. i'm
not particularly keen on apologies anyway; i care a lot
more for actions than for words.
i've found that once i threaten break-up, it's pretty
much done, even tho i've in the past gotten back toge-
ther and broken up again and gotten back together and...
but everytime this happens, a piece of trust breaks off
for good, in my experience.
>Was I asking too much?
seems that to him you were. it doesn't matter whether
2/3 of us here think you weren't. it matters whether
he thinks you were asking too much.
and it matters whether you think you were, after hearing
him tell you what went on with him, and thinking about it.
>[...] He tried saying that his wife never
>gets upset when he cancels plans on her. I'm not sure I be-
>lieve that, but at any rate, that's between them, and I don't
>think that what upsets *her* is relevant to what upsets *me*.
yeah, with this one i agree. you're a different person,
and he can't just apply his experiences with his wife to
you.
>He tried saying that spending an hour with me wasn't a "plan,"
>since we hadn't decided exactly what to do with it yet. But
>we *had* planned to spend it together!
i think i am beginning to see where this might have gone
wrong. the two of you might well see "plans" differently.
i just went thru a discussion with my paramour about this
very subject this morning, so it's fresh on my mind.
i don't make plans until something occurs to me. i live
a lot in the moment. i'm hard pressed to decide in the
morning whether i want to go out for dinner at night --
i have no idea what the day will bring; i might be dead
tired. the paramour had been coming home late for a few
days now, and i asked whether zie was gonna be late again
tonight, and that started a discussion on why zie was
late -- hey, we had no plans! so why not work a couple
more hours. while i thought it would be nice to have zir
home early, so we could _make_ plans. *snicker*.
different attitudes about time management. we are very
different about this, and in general zie's doing better
than i am adapting to each other's style.
>He acted like this was just too high an expectation for him
>to live up to. Like I was asking for some huge sacrifice.
>Was I? Is *checking* with me before canceling time he's led
>me to count on spending with him too much to ask? Am I crazy?
no, you don't sound crazy to me (and yes, i play a psychia-
trist on the net if there's a need, *grin*).
maybe he didn't act, angi. maybe these expectations _are_
too high for him. just because they seem eminently reason-
able to you doesn't mean they'd be easy to live up to for
him just because you'd like him to.
i can empathize with him if i imagine my paramour would ask
me to make firm plans for most things we do together. i'm
not sure i could do it. it'd mean a major change to the way
i look at life.
and something as stupidly-small-sounding as that might make
or break our relationship if neither of us can compromise
on it.
i think you guys need to talk a lot more, after calming down.
and i wish you the best of luck.
-piranha
Eric C. Weaver
In article <4th9ps$p...@news1.halcyon.com>, e...@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg)
wrote:
> Oh, quit whining.
Quit whining yourself, and take it like a man.
--
Eric C. Weaver
Chief Eng. KFJC 89.7 Foothill College Los Altos Hills CA 94022
Gary Farber
Arnold Vance (e...@panix.com) wrote: <snip> I, also, was going to urge Angi
to, at least, consider very carefully what she was doing, and, if she
could, to reconsider her decision to cease posting here; I had *some* of
the same reasons you have in mind. I was going to wait until I'd gone to
bed and gotten some sleep before posting that, but I'm leapfrogging
because I also disagree with a couple of your reasons.
: Angi, personally, I urge you to stay. For a # of reasons:
: -the facade of privacy is just that--a facade.
Agreed. I completely understand that when someone is in pain the way Angi
is, being logical is not necessarily the way to go for some time, if ever
(on a specific point), but when or if she feels up to it, I hope she
considers that she didn't really worry about who was reading her before,
and I'd hope she could return to that.
: -if you leave, it looks like a hit and run. I'm not saying it is,
: it just looks that way.
I wouldn't phrase it that way, but I'd hope she would try not to let
conflict with someone destroy her pleasure in everything he might have
contact with.
: -if you leave, only Elf's perspective remains.
: -it may not be entirely comfortable, but isn't one of the "ideals" of
: Polyamory dealing with hard, nonstandard problems? Provide an
: example to the community on how a polywise person deals w/ adversity.
This one goes down the wrong way with me, I'm afraid. I know you meant
it perfectly well and innocently, so I'm certainly not flaming you (and
I've been much too cranky for some time, really -- but I particularly get
that way in summer), but I always trip over this idea that people in pain
and duty should "provide an example." It's the sort of noble,
inspirational thing one constantly reads in endless Heroic Profiles of
Noble Individuals Triumphing Over Adversity, and is a sure bet in every
article about a handicapped (or, if you prefer, crip, but not blood)
person.
I frankly think it entirely unreasonable to drop that load on real
individuals in real life. If you want to laud them after the fact,
that's one thing, but to urge people to "set an example," in however
well-meaning a fashion, sticks in my craw. YMMV.
: -instead of a partially-forgotten or half-imagined situation, here is
: a being-lived-in-the-flesh one. Let the group interact.
: -having the courage to go public is gutsy; go all the way.
: It may have exorcistic and therapeutic value.
: -I don't believe your relationship with Elf is over--now that you've
: broken the news to the group, maintain the dialogue.
This seems a tad presumptous to me, but I suppose it's par for the course
in this newsgroup. :-)
: Elf,
: -let's hear your side; why is it just whining?
No, let's not. I really think the idea of asking people to haul out the
bloody wounds of their relationship on a newsgroup is in very poor taste.
Maybe that's just me, but I'll be unpleasantly surprised if it is. It's
one thing for people to write cathartic gut-spilling spontaneously, but
egging on people who are tearing themselves up, well, I have to think you
may not have considered very deeply what you are doing here.
: Whatever both of you do do, good luck.
Agreed.
--
-- Gary Farber gfa...@panix.com
Copyright (c) 1996 Brooklyn, NY, USA
The Imzadi's
On July 29 1996 you said:
> Oh, quit whining.
> Elf !!!
Why be so cruel? Especially on such a public forum.
Debbie
'mathochist' Angela Long
Okay, I was going to duck out of here for a while because I didn't
want this to turn into some kind of public argument. But I do
want to keep talking, and this forum is relatively comfortable for
that, for me.
piranha <tr...@pathcom.com> wrote:
>'mathochist' Angela Long <angi...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>>We'd been through the same argument before. He had plans with
>>me, to stay for another hour, when his wife called, asked him
>>out to lunch, and without even checking with me, he told her
>>he'd go. He'd promised not to do that any more, (. . .)
> you know, it sounds to me like one of two things (could
> be something else, but these came up): either he's just
> an inconsiderate person in general and does just as it
> pleases him in the moment, or he's got himself a pattern
> there that he realizes he should change, but hasn't got
> a grip on yet (and might not be able to get a grip on).
He is an impulsive person, and doesn't always think to consider
everything he should be in the 'heat of the moment.' (I guess
we all do that, to some degree or other.) Some of that, he may
never be able to overcome. But I think he does want to change,
and to tell the truth, most of the time I think he's got a pret-
ty good grip on it. Most of the time.
>>It hurt so much that he could so easily break an agreement he
>>knew was so important to me, so calmly do something he knew
>>would hurt me. I sent email, told him that if this was the
>>way he was going to keep treating me, not to come back.
> whoa. is this a case of the straw breaking the camel's
> back, or did you think a big threat would get thru to
> him where nothing else did?
*Sigh* This is a case of me overreacting. By "not come back,"
I meant not come back that afternoon, like he had planned...
but I left that ambiguous. I was feeling hurt and lashed out,
and I've apologized to him for it now.
>>I love him so much, but how can I keep being hurt the same way
>>over and over?
> that is a very hard choice to make. but it might be
> worth thinking about, as clearly as possible. how much
> does it hurt and how often are you in pain? what's the
> threshold? are you always pushing it?
Saturday, when I was feeling freshly hurt, it *felt* like it
was happening all the time. In retrospect, though, it wasn't.
I looked through the 'email record,' and the last time he did
this (broke plans without checking with me) was three and a
half months ago. I think one flub in three and a half months
is a pretty good track record. I think other things that had
triggered my insecurities Saturday contributed to what I was
feeling. I definitely didn't react very maturely then.
> i realize you were upset, and there's obviously plenty
> of history here, but somebody saying zie understands it's
> important isn't what actions hinge on sometimes. maybe
> he didn't forget, maybe he just didn't realize this was
> one of those occasions that were important to you. i'm
> not trying to make excuses for him, mind you.
I think he just plain goofed, really. I was pretty harsh to
accuse him of not caring. :/ The fact that he broke the
pattern that was starting to form a few months ago, and hadn't
repeated it in months, shows that he really did care.
>>I sent more email later, asked him to come take my collar off
>>if this was going to keep going on.
And almost immediately sent another saying that wasn't really
what I wanted. (I left that out before.)
> ??? this must be a BDSM thing, yes? i didn't know one
> carried that sort of stuff into real life. wow. if this
> isn't too much to ask at this time, what does that mean?
> is this akin to returning an engagement ring?
It's only "sorta" BDSM. I've worn a length of chain with a
lock, and he the key on a chain around his neck, for the past
two years, as a symbol of our relationship. Usually, a collar
would mean D/s, but for us, it just meant connection, and also
a link to the BDSM community. ...I feel very naked without it.
>>Finally he came in and asked me to "talk," but I still
>>didn't know what to say. He tried to say he didn't know what
>>he'd done wrong. I reminded him that we'd had this argument
>>before. "One minute, we're talking about what we're going to
>>do together for the next hour; the next, the phone rings, you
>>make other plans *without even checking with me*, and you're
>>out the door." "Oh." And after a few minutes of silence, he
>>tossed the key to my collar at me and walked away. He tinkered
>>with the lawnmower for a few more minutes while I asked him if
>>there was really nothing more to talk about, if I wasn't even
>>worth apologizing to. "Apology? What for?" And he walked
>>away, the kids running after him.
> hm. that sounds really odd to me. did you represent
> what was said accurately? or was it a lot more heated?
That was pretty much it. Not many words were exchanged. When
we first went into the bedroom to talk, I was crying. Too
full of the hurt of the moment, I guess, to clearly say that I
just needed an apology, and in that headspace where I felt like
if I had to ask for it, it wouldn't be "real." He put his arms
around me (doing the right thing for when I'm crying!, when he
used to feel so clueless about what to do he'd just sit there),
and asked what was wrong; at that point, I don't think he
really understood, in spite of my email. I don't think he had
any intention of leaving then; he decided that in the next
two minutes.
>>Things were going so well. We'd had a session with the coun-
>>selor a couple months ago, and the tension between his wife
>>and me had eased a lot, I thought. We'd had a tiff last
>>month, about the possibility of him moving out of the area,
>>and he'd apologized afterward and promised to do everything
>>he could to stay near me.
> you guys have "tiffs" over a whole bunch of things that
> i consider to be pretty darn major (buying a house toge-
> ther, having kids together).
Those were many moons ago, and I wouldn't call them "tiffs."
The disagreement wasn't between us, either, it was between us
and his wife. And it was pretty much settled in January.
The one last month started with him talking rather lightly
about the possibility of moving away for a year or two. It
upset me, because he'd always in the past said he was totally
set on staying in Seattle forever, and I felt like I hadn't
bargained to get involved with someone who might up and leave
at any moment. It just felt like he was talking about it too
lightly, I guess. There was discussion for a couple days,
and it ended happily.
> maybe you can't do it either, and much of the tension
> stems from you wanting to be a true second primary in-
> stead of a secondary? i'm just wondering.
Some tension comes from that, but not enough that I would
want to walk away. The agreement, for the past six months,
has been that we won't share a house or have a baby, but
otherwise, we're partners, plan our future together within
those constraints. Secondary, but not just "fuckbuddies."
> i'm very, very careful with threats about break-ups --
> i do not make them unless i am truly certain that this
> is what i want -- if i want an apology, i will ask for
> the apology instead. (. . .)
Yeah. I wish I had been more careful. Lashing out with a
threat like that, even though I tried to take it right back,
wasn't right. :/
>>He tried saying that spending an hour with me wasn't a "plan,"
>>since we hadn't decided exactly what to do with it yet. But
>>we *had* planned to spend it together!
> i think i am beginning to see where this might have gone
> wrong. the two of you might well see "plans" differently.
Yes, maybe to some extent we do. But since it was the same
sort of thing that had come up before (months ago), he did
know that it was a time he should have checked with me be-
fore leaving early. And, since, he has emailed once to
apologize for that. But also to say he still didn't want
to get back together, since he doesn't want to flub up the
same way again. :( I told him that an occasional slip is
to be expected in any relationship, and that one time in
three and a half months is a pretty good track record, not
an abusive pattern. (And this was also something we'd
talked about a few times before, when he's beaten himself
up over making mistakes, going into "I don't deserve you"
mode.) I hope that begins to make sense to him as he calms
down.
> i can empathize with him if i imagine my paramour would ask
> me to make firm plans for most things we do together. i'm
> not sure i could do it. it'd mean a major change to the way
> i look at life.
I am a planner. Part of that, I think, comes from having
kids. With them, it's just impossible to do much without
a fair amount of planning.
> i think you guys need to talk a lot more, after calming down.
> and i wish you the best of luck.
Thank you. I hope he agrees to talk more, soon. I hope
he doesn't let himself make a permanent decision based on
temporary feelings.
--
-- Angi :)
Onyx and Shamrock
What a wonderful, heartfelt response. Take a lot
out of you to be so empathetic?
val
On 29 Jul 1996, Elf Sternberg wrote:
> Oh, quit whining.
>
> Elf !!!
Elf Sternberg
In article <31FE7D...@earthlink.net>
>On July 29 1996 you said:
>
> > Oh, quit whining.
>Why be so cruel? Especially on such a public forum.
For precisely that reason. Scorn in private is rarely useful.
At this point, I'm willing to ruin what little public reputation I have
if it means I'm able to convince her of my sincere wish that she leave
me alone.
Deborah Ruppert
In article <4tmpmv$g...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>,
'mathochist' Angela Long <angi...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>He is an impulsive person, and doesn't always think to consider
>everything he should be in the 'heat of the moment.'
Not really on topic, but interesting: last night I was talking to a good
friend who teaches first grade. She mentioned that she makes a conscious
effort to teach children in her class to think through options and choose
the best option before they act....sometimes she catches the kids before
they act impulsively, sometimes she does it after the fact.
What she says is "Smart people have been shown to be able to think of at
least three alternate things they could do (or could have done) here. I
think of you as a really smart person. So, come on...give me three other
things you could have done instead of [hitting Johnny on the head; throwing
the eraser; walking off in a huff...]"
I really liked that technique. Since my own 14-year-old child and my
husband are very impulsive, I may use it with them. I'm usually the one
who says "hey, you could have done [option 1, option 2, etc.]..."
Deborah
--
Deborah J. Ruppert pho...@clearspring.com
President, Clear Spring Associates 7301 NE Krono Road
Yamhill, OR 97148
"Sometimes, it just takes a fairy." Vida Boheme
'mathochist' Angela Long
Elf Sternberg <e...@halcyon.com> wrote:
>At this point, I'm willing to ruin what little public reputation I have
>if it means I'm able to convince her of my sincere wish that she leave
>me alone.
If he wanted me to leave him alone in this situation, he wouldn't
have promised to always give it two weeks' worth of talking first
when he felt like leaving, and asked me to promise, many times,
to hold him to that, no matter what I had to do or how hard I had
to push. There were good reasons he asked me to push when need be:
he knew how hard he'd fight against it at the time, but he didn't
want to be allowed to make permanent decisions based on temporary
feelings. This was our agreement the last time, half a year ago,
he tried to push me away based on feelings he hadn't had for very
long. We both knew he would inevitably do that again, and I agreed
to never let him make it stick.
I didn't agree to never let go or never leave him alone. Just not
this way. Not when words were said in haste, when the day before
it happened, breaking up was the farthest thing from anybody's mind.
I promised that when he wanted to break up, if we talked about it
over the course of two weeks, and he still wanted it, I would let
go without a 'fight.' He wouldn't marry somebody he'd only wanted
to marry for a few days, and he didn't want to let himself break up
if he'd only wanted that for a few days, either.
Now, I've sent him email, reminding him of this. And just as we
both knew he would, he's fighting it. I don't want to feel like
some kind of stalker. I don't want to force him into anything he
doesn't really want, however much I'm hurting myself, and how un-
fiar this is to the kids. And I know that if he doesn't come back
on his own... if what we had was really so fragile that it could
be undone by a one-day fight and some hasty words... then it
shouldn't be something I want back. But I also have the promise I
made him, and the work I've seen him put into this relationship so
far to tell me the reasons behind that promise still hold.
I can't exactly kidnap him and make him talk to me, even though he
jokingly asked me, before, to go that far if I had to to get through
to him. A few months ago, he had wanted to put this agreement in
writing. We never got around to it, and I'm not sure it would have
helped him hold to it. I try to keep having faith that he'll be
back to talk, as he always told me I could count on whenever he
left on impulse again. And I do know it's only been a few days,
and, realistically, he just can't avoid me forever. This is just
so painful, and all I know to do is keep doing what I promised him
I'd do: keep reminding him and pushing him to come talk.
--
-- Angi :)