Various Noodles about Line Toeing
B.C. Holmes
For the last day or two I've been thinking about disagreement and
the idea of "toeing the line". The question in my head started off
with "what would it have meant for J. Random Troll to 'toe the line'
in this group? What behaviours would have been exhibited? How does
the answer to that question differ from the behaviours that I *wanted*
to see from J. Random Troll?" And from there it sort of evolved into,
"what verbal cues do I use to say that I disagree with a position that
others are taking, but that I'm interested in exploring the boundaries
of that disagreement and possibly even changing my opinion."
I guess that this is an interesting question for me for a few
reasons. First, I've believed a lot of things in my life that I'm now
embarassed to have believed, and if it weren't for people who've had
the patience to educate me about those topics, I'd probably still be
espousing positions that the-me-I-am-right-now cringes at.
Second, I'm really drawn to discussions about the boundaries of
disagreement. With the right kind of people, such discussions can
often get me to put my finger on really fascinating ways in which
people seem to view the world differently. Or sometimes they expose
some unconscious assumption, a la "why did I assume that I can't
extend the lines outside of the box?"
So back to the question at hand: how do I have those kinds of
disagreements?
One of the first things is that I usually only have those
disagreement conversations with people that I've already established a
certain amount of rapport with. Usually, I have to feel comfortable
with their communication style, and I want to feel confident that they
already have a good idea of where I stand on certain things.
Another thing is that I often spend a non-trivial amount of time
explicitly saying what I'm *not* saying. For example, "I *know* that
there's a very vocal group that claim that dwooble futzing is a
psychopathology, and I'm *really* not agreeing with them, but I'm
damned if I can pin down precisely how dwooble futzing differs from
icky behaviours such as threeple snutching."
Thirdly, if I'm really interested in exploring the boundaries of
disagreement, I make a strong effort to be able express the position
that I disagree with in the terms that the other person uses, rather
than in whatever language I might apply to it in the safety of my own
head.
One more thing (one that I've recently started to try to remember
to incorporate) is explicitly saying that I'm trying to understand
and/or explore the boundary of disagreement. That sometimes makes it
clear that I'm not trying to convince someone to change their minds.
Anyway, I'm not sure I'm making a whole lot of sense. I've been
rolling these thoughts around in my head and trying to put words
around them.
BCing you
--
B.C. Holmes \u2625 http://www.bcholmes.org/
"The reward for conformity was that everyone liked you except
yourself."
- Rita Mae Brown
John Palmer
wrote:
> Another thing is that I often spend a non-trivial amount of time
>explicitly saying what I'm *not* saying. For example, "I *know* that
>there's a very vocal group that claim that dwooble futzing is a
>psychopathology, and I'm *really* not agreeing with them, but I'm
>damned if I can pin down precisely how dwooble futzing differs from
>icky behaviours such as threeple snutching."
WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THREEPLE SNUTCHING YOU BIGO... (sound
reminiscent of someone cutting off a microphone)
Sorry. That's as far as I could get without getting the giggles.
Carry on.
John, trying to figure out if he's ever contemplated threeple
snutching.
--
Everything I needed to know in life, I learned in kindergarten. Like:
for many of the best, noblest concepts of the world's religions, the word
"believe" is five letters too long.
umar
>WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THREEPLE SNUTCHING YOU BIGO... (sound
>reminiscent of someone cutting off a microphone)
Threeple snutch! Threeple snutch! Rah! Rah! Rah!
Three dits. Four dits. Two dits. Dah.
umar, just kidding
Pat Kight
The phrase "Seuss porn" is suddenly running through my mind.
Would someone please make it stop?
--Pat Kight
kig...@peak.org
Mean Green Dancing Machine
Pat Kight <kig...@ucs.orst.edu> wrote:
>umar wrote:
>>
>> Threeple snutch! Threeple snutch! Rah! Rah! Rah!
>> Three dits. Four dits. Two dits. Dah.
>
>The phrase "Seuss porn" is suddenly running through my mind.
>Would someone please make it stop?
http://www.cleansheets.com/archive/archreviews/seussrev_4.1.99.html
No, no, don't thank me, it's quite all right.
--
--- Aahz <*> (Copyright 2002 by aa...@pobox.com)
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://www.rahul.net/aahz/
Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het Pythonista
"Sedition comes in small packages as well as large ones, Mr. Allen. Now,
perhaps this store owner is nothing more than a vaguely dissatisfied
citizen. But how can we tell the real troublemakers from the innocent
bystanders unless we're kept informed?" --JMS, "The Fall of Night"
Pat Kight
>
> In article <3D7E847D...@ucs.orst.edu>,
> Pat Kight <kig...@ucs.orst.edu> wrote:
> >umar wrote:
> >>
> >> Threeple snutch! Threeple snutch! Rah! Rah! Rah!
> >> Three dits. Four dits. Two dits. Dah.
> >
> >The phrase "Seuss porn" is suddenly running through my mind.
> >Would someone please make it stop?
>
> http://www.cleansheets.com/archive/archreviews/seussrev_4.1.99.html
Oh. Dear. God.
> No, no, don't thank me, it's quite all right.
You know, I always liked you. I wonder why. (-;
-Pat Kight
kig...@peak.org
Tane' Tachyon
To quote from "Hop on Pop":
NO
PAT
NO
Don't sit on that.
--
Tane' Tachyon = tac...@tachyonlabs.com = http://www.tachyonlabs.com/
Miche
> umar wrote:
> > John Palmer <jpal...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> >
> >
> >>WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THREEPLE SNUTCHING YOU BIGO... (sound
> >>reminiscent of someone cutting off a microphone)
> >
> >
> > Threeple snutch! Threeple snutch! Rah! Rah! Rah!
> > Three dits. Four dits. Two dits. Dah.
>
> The phrase "Seuss porn" is suddenly running through my mind.
Bwaaahahaha!
Miche
--
So what if the universe is a pointless mass of hydrogen refuse powered
by entropy. I'm spreading ketchup on a rubber duck, and after that I'm
going to brush its teeth. So there.
-- Rob Landley
Patrick McKinnion
> The phrase "Seuss porn" is suddenly running through my mind.
>
> Would someone please make it stop?
I would not do it in a bog /
I would not do it on a log
I would not make it with a goat /
I would not make it with a stoat........
Okay, I'll stop...... :-)
- Patrick McKinnion
--
---Brought to you by "Ouchies", the sharp, prickly toy you bathe with...
---------------------------------
http://home.earthlink.net/~patgund/ ICQ 5527565
Tagline collection at http://home.earthlink.net/~patgund/tagline/
Mean Green Dancing Machine
>Mean Green Dancing Machine wrote:
>> In article <3D7E847D...@ucs.orst.edu>,
>> Pat Kight <kig...@ucs.orst.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>The phrase "Seuss porn" is suddenly running through my mind.
>>>Would someone please make it stop?
>>
>> http://www.cleansheets.com/archive/archreviews/seussrev_4.1.99.html
>
>Oh. Dear. God.
A bit more diligent work with Google revealed some Dr. Seuss slash:
http://femgeeks.net/glitterjungle/pink/main.html
>> No, no, don't thank me, it's quite all right.
>
>You know, I always liked you. I wonder why. (-;
<smirk>
Pat Kight
>
> In article <3D7E847D...@ucs.orst.edu>, Pat Kight
> <kig...@ucs.orst.edu> wrote:
>
> > The phrase "Seuss porn" is suddenly running through my mind.
> >
> > Would someone please make it stop?
>
> I would not do it in a bog /
> I would not do it on a log
>
> I would not make it with a goat /
> I would not make it with a stoat........
>
> Okay, I'll stop...... :-)
You people are sick and twisted.
Which, come to think of it, is probably why I finally delurked.
--Pat Kight
kig...@peak.org
Stef
B.C. Holmes <bcn...@bcholmes.org> wrote:
> Anyway, I'm not sure I'm making a whole lot of sense. I've been
>rolling these thoughts around in my head and trying to put words
>around them.
Good post. (And I'm quite struck by the seriousness of the follow-ups
generated so far. :) If I remember correctly, all the things you do
count as something that I've heard called "framing the discussion."
Framing does often seem to go a long way toward heading off angry or
defensive reactions to statements that might sound negative or sound
like disagreements.
--
Stef ** avid/sensible/sensual/wise/essential/elemental/tangle
** st...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef
**
Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,
there is a field. I'll meet you there.
When the soul lies down in that grass,
the world is too full to talk about.
Ideas, language, even the phrase "each other"
doesn't make any sense. -- Rumi, tr. Coleman Barks
Freyja
"Pat Kight" <kig...@ucs.orst.edu> wrote in message
news:3D7E847D...@ucs.orst.edu...
Just have it run into a bar. (Don't tell it to duck.)
--
Freyja (despam me)
...or Bar as the case may be
John Palmer
(After having jumped this thread with a joking response, let me
post a more serious one.)
On Mon, 09 Sep 2002 22:30:12 -0400, B.C. Holmes <bcn...@bcholmes.org>
wrote:
>
> For the last day or two I've been thinking about disagreement and
>the idea of "toeing the line".
(snip to)
> I guess that this is an interesting question for me for a few
>reasons. First, I've believed a lot of things in my life that I'm now
>embarassed to have believed, and if it weren't for people who've had
>the patience to educate me about those topics, I'd probably still be
>espousing positions that the-me-I-am-right-now cringes at.
>
> Second, I'm really drawn to discussions about the boundaries of
>disagreement. With the right kind of people, such discussions can
>often get me to put my finger on really fascinating ways in which
>people seem to view the world differently. Or sometimes they expose
>some unconscious assumption, a la "why did I assume that I can't
>extend the lines outside of the box?"
>
> So back to the question at hand: how do I have those kinds of
>disagreements?
One of the biggest things to keep in mind is timing. The time
when you're most reminded of an issue, and are most raring to talk
about it, might not be the best time to bring it up. It's probably
easier to learn how to realize it's the wrong time, and how to recover
gracefully, than to learn how to recognize the right time.
And, one thing I've learned helps a lot is to remember that
people take cues from you. If you sound defensive enough about a
position you're asking about, you might cue people that you have a
reason to be defensive about it. There's a balance to be struck...
you don't want to be insensitive, but you don't want to be
super-apologetic.
> Another thing is that I often spend a non-trivial amount of time
>explicitly saying what I'm *not* saying. For example, "I *know* that
>there's a very vocal group that claim that dwooble futzing is a
>psychopathology, and I'm *really* not agreeing with them, but I'm
>damned if I can pin down precisely how dwooble futzing differs from
>icky behaviours such as threeple snutching."
Chuckle. This isn't entirely honest in the picture it portrays,
but it can still be useful. "This person was telling me that dwooble
futzing is no better than threeple snutching. Do you have any idea
what I can say in response?"
> One more thing (one that I've recently started to try to remember
>to incorporate) is explicitly saying that I'm trying to understand
>and/or explore the boundary of disagreement. That sometimes makes it
>clear that I'm not trying to convince someone to change their minds.
Nod. If you can pull that off, I think it's a good thing.
People can be suspicious, though, and sometimes I can't blame them.
It's especially hard (IMHO) if all you've heard is negative
propoganda, and *KNOW* you've only heard negative propoganda, but
don't really know anything positive.
--
Everything I needed to know in life I learned in Kindergarten. Like:
"Do not try to understand the bunny; that is impossible. Instead, try
to understand the truth... there *IS* no bunny, and it is only your soul
that runs"
songbird
>
> For the last day or two I've been thinking about disagreement and
> the idea of "toeing the line". The question in my head started off
> with "what would it have meant for J. Random Troll to 'toe the line'
> in this group?
reading the FAQ, taking into consideration many of the items
written there, making an effort to understand that they are in
a new culture, making allowances for habit of denizens as much
as the denizens make allowances for someone being new.
> What behaviours would have been exhibited?
things that would show that the above things were happening.
> How does
> the answer to that question differ from the behaviours that I *wanted*
> to see from J. Random Troll?"
i'm not sure. ;)
> And from there it sort of evolved into,
> "what verbal cues do I use to say that I disagree with a position that
> others are taking, but that I'm interested in exploring the boundaries
> of that disagreement and possibly even changing my opinion."
i just dive right in by stating my objection. the other person
can reply as they wish.
> I guess that this is an interesting question for me for a few
> reasons. First, I've believed a lot of things in my life that I'm now
> embarassed to have believed, and if it weren't for people who've had
> the patience to educate me about those topics, I'd probably still be
> espousing positions that the-me-I-am-right-now cringes at.
sure. still i won't ignore the fact that you've probably done
a lot of pondering/research about other things that you'd never
consider cringing about.
> Second, I'm really drawn to discussions about the boundaries of
> disagreement. With the right kind of people, such discussions can
> often get me to put my finger on really fascinating ways in which
> people seem to view the world differently. Or sometimes they expose
> some unconscious assumption, a la "why did I assume that I can't
> extend the lines outside of the box?"
me too, often i find that i will adopt the other person's viewpoint
overnight and the next day we might be arguing in the other direction
with as much passion as we did the day before. :) quite fun.
> So back to the question at hand: how do I have those kinds of
> disagreements?
>
> One of the first things is that I usually only have those
> disagreement conversations with people that I've already established a
> certain amount of rapport with. Usually, I have to feel comfortable
> with their communication style, and I want to feel confident that they
> already have a good idea of where I stand on certain things.
hmm.
> Another thing is that I often spend a non-trivial amount of time
> explicitly saying what I'm *not* saying. For example, "I *know* that
> there's a very vocal group that claim that dwooble futzing is a
> psychopathology, and I'm *really* not agreeing with them, but I'm
> damned if I can pin down precisely how dwooble futzing differs from
> icky behaviours such as threeple snutching."
i need pictures or demonstration. repeated if necessary until
i get it.
> Thirdly, if I'm really interested in exploring the boundaries of
> disagreement, I make a strong effort to be able express the position
> that I disagree with in the terms that the other person uses, rather
> than in whatever language I might apply to it in the safety of my own
> head.
safety is a repeating theme in this post. i'm pretty sure you're
saying what i think you are saying and i think i agree with you, but
i would not say it the same ways. i.e. i think you're saying that you
want to be able to express their position using their terms but also
with the understanding of what those terms mean to them and not the more
simple reflecting/parroting (which may not have much to do with under-
standing their terms).
> One more thing (one that I've recently started to try to remember
> to incorporate) is explicitly saying that I'm trying to understand
> and/or explore the boundary of disagreement. That sometimes makes it
> clear that I'm not trying to convince someone to change their minds.
:) i rarely make this explicit as i kinda just assume that is a
common stance in problem solving. which it isn't so i often mess up.
sometimes people just want to be heard and acknowledged without any
further noodling about. it helps me a lot to know that someone wants
that kind of thing rather than noodling (at least until some other
signal is given which means we can shift to more noodling about, often
i would use the injection of humor to indicate that a shift in tone
is ok. so if i'm having a certain kind of discussion with someone
and they toss in a joke then i think it's ok to shift to something
else).
> Anyway, I'm not sure I'm making a whole lot of sense. I've been
> rolling these thoughts around in my head and trying to put words
> around them.
sensible to me.
songbird *peeps*
Rose Platt
> >> http://www.cleansheets.com/archive/archreviews/seussrev_4.1.99.html
>
> A bit more diligent work with Google revealed some Dr. Seuss slash:
> http://femgeeks.net/glitterjungle/pink/main.html
Thank you so much for hunting this down. Saves me having to research it.
Let me know if you ever find any Care Bears bondage porn; I found some
once but unfortunately didn't archive it.
--Rose
--
Rose Platt, Designer & Thileiast
http://www.gordiandesigns.com/ ~^~ ro...@gordiandesigns.com
Tying knots in bits of string for money since 1999
Menolly
Platt) posited:
>Mean Green Dancing Machine <aa...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> >> http://www.cleansheets.com/archive/archreviews/seussrev_4.1.99.html
>>
>> A bit more diligent work with Google revealed some Dr. Seuss slash:
>> http://femgeeks.net/glitterjungle/pink/main.html
>
>Thank you so much for hunting this down. Saves me having to research it.
>
>Let me know if you ever find any Care Bears bondage porn; I found some
>once but unfortunately didn't archive it.
*whimper*
You went to the Bad Place. Whyfor you go to the Bad Place?
--
)\._.,--....,'``. | men...@spy.net
/, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. | http://www.livejournal.com/~nolly/
`._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' fL| Paranoid Cynical Optimist
-----------------------------------------------------------------
You would fear me less if you knew me better. --from "The Great
Green Worm", by Marie-Catherine D'Aulnoy, tr. A.S. Byatt
Rose Platt
> On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 22:49:50 -0700, use...@gordiandesigns.com (Rose
> Platt) posited:
>
> >Mean Green Dancing Machine <aa...@pobox.com> wrote:
> >
> >> >> http://www.cleansheets.com/archive/archreviews/seussrev_4.1.99.html
> >>
> >> A bit more diligent work with Google revealed some Dr. Seuss slash:
> >> http://femgeeks.net/glitterjungle/pink/main.html
> >
> >Thank you so much for hunting this down. Saves me having to research it.
> >
> >Let me know if you ever find any Care Bears bondage porn; I found some
> >once but unfortunately didn't archive it.
>
> *whimper*
> You went to the Bad Place. Whyfor you go to the Bad Place?
It's nice to go home every once in a while.
Jodawi
an once partner of mine wrote an erotic seuss-like thing about me. alas,
probably would not appreciate me sharing it.
--
#include <stdjodawi>
Patrick McKinnion
Platt <use...@gordiandesigns.com> wrote:
> Let me know if you ever find any Care Bears bondage porn; I found some
> once but unfortunately didn't archive it.
I may have some in my collection of cartoon porn. I know I just
got some DragonTales and Barney stuff. Let me search for it when I
get home. It may take a while to look for it, I think the collection
is about 800 or so MB in size right now.
- Patrick McKinnion
--
---Brought to you by "Ouchies", the sharp, prickly toy you bathe with...
---------------------------------
http://home.earthlink.net/~patgund/ ICQ 5527565
Tagline collection at http://home.earthlink.net/~patgund/tagline/
LiveJournal at http://patgund.livejournal.com/
Rose Platt
> In article <1fiq8z8.1mvgjrg1tpxyalN%use...@gordiandesigns.com>, Rose
> Platt <use...@gordiandesigns.com> wrote:
>
> > Let me know if you ever find any Care Bears bondage porn; I found some
> > once but unfortunately didn't archive it.
>
> I may have some in my collection of cartoon porn. I know I just
> got some DragonTales and Barney stuff. Let me search for it when I
> get home. It may take a while to look for it, I think the collection
> is about 800 or so MB in size right now.
Oooh! I knew there was a reason I liked you. *) Share? Most of my
collection is text, and more images are always nice.
Patrick McKinnion
Platt <use...@gordiandesigns.com> wrote:
> > I may have some in my collection of cartoon porn. I know I just
> > got some DragonTales and Barney stuff. Let me search for it when I
> > get home. It may take a while to look for it, I think the collection
> > is about 800 or so MB in size right now.
>
> Oooh! I knew there was a reason I liked you. *) Share? Most of my
> collection is text, and more images are always nice.
Actually turned out to be about 400 MB in size. But sure, I can
burn a CD and send it to you. They're in absolutely nothing like
organization though. (I had been emailing them to a ladyfriend of
mine in Texas in 1.4 MB groups for three years now, so the only
organization is the batches I mailed out.) May be a lot of
duplications, but I try to weed those out.
Found a batch on alt.binaries.pictures.cartoons, and
alt.binaries.nospam.toons. One artist in particular, Kthanid, does
some really good work in places. (Though he did make a mistake in
the "Blues Clues" pictures, but it's a common mistake. Many people
think Blue's a male, in fact, Blue's a female.)
Speaking of Kthanid, just found some artwork he did using characters
from Disney's "Robin Hood". Have to had that to the batch.
Rose Platt
> In article <1fjp518.uch6kf10q5lzwN%use...@gordiandesigns.com>, Rose
> Platt <use...@gordiandesigns.com> wrote:
>
> > > I may have some in my collection of cartoon porn. I know I just
> > > got some DragonTales and Barney stuff. Let me search for it when I
> > > get home. It may take a while to look for it, I think the collection
> > > is about 800 or so MB in size right now.
> >
> > Oooh! I knew there was a reason I liked you. *) Share? Most of my
> > collection is text, and more images are always nice.
>
> Actually turned out to be about 400 MB in size. But sure, I can
> burn a CD and send it to you.
That would be most excellent. *) I shall email you my mailing address.
Thanks!