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Poly advice sought <LONG>
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Clarissakoala
Apr 11, 2013, 3:17:36 AM4/11/13
to
Hi,
I'm new to this group myself but my husband has read, and shared bits
of, alt.poly for years. I am now in a new situation and I'm hoping
others can offer advice/support/etc.
BAckground: Ken and I have been poly since before we were married,
nearly 24 years ago. For the last four years, my only otherlove has
been E who lives 50miles away. He is single and has been in a
relationship with W who lives farther away, an arrangement they both
agree is right for them. Ken currently has no otherlove.
Fifteen years ago, R and I became otherloves. From the very beginning,
there was a depth to the relationship that surprised both of us, rather
as if there'd been an R-shaped hole in my life that I hadn't known was
there (and ditto for him). We had some ups and downs but, by and large,
we had 7.5 very, very good years together despite living 700+miles apart
and seeing each other (usually) every 6-8 weeks or so. The words
"always and forever" were frequent and I believed we both meant what we
were saying. Seven years ago, he started a physical relationship with K
(who lived near by), which was in violation of our agreements at the
time and which he unsuccessfully tried to hide from me. I was willing
to try and work things out for all of us (he's been married to L for 30+
years and they've been poly most of that time) but he was kind of
besotted with K and resisted most of my efforts, finally breaking up
with me.
Over the last four years, I'd come to function in many ways as a primary
for E--grocery shopping, cooking, baby-sitting, laundry, household
repair assistance, car repair/maintenance assistance, social activities
(parties, concerts, sports events, school activities and more) and so
on. We didn't really use the terms primary/secondary, mainly because
there was no need to do so.
Somewhere between five and six months ago, E began a relationship with
M, a woman with no poly experience at all. He admitted to being
"smitten" with her; "besotted" comes closer, IMO. Because of her job, M
has little free time on weeknights so my usual "Friday/Saturday nights
most weeks" visits pretty quickly became "only one weeknight" visits.
Plans with M took priority over almost everything else. I had clearly
been "demoted" to secondary.
It was not an easy transition by any stretch of the imagination. The
only "model" I had for a third poly relationship was the one from years
earlier with R, which ended most unpleasantly indeed. I felt threatened
by E's relationship with M, as if the handwriting were already on the
wall telling the end of E and me was coming. I cried more in the first
four months of E's relationship with M than I had in the previous almost
four years. To give him credit, E was very up front about what was
going on, and did nothing deliberately cruel. We talked a *lot* and he
provided lots of reassurance that he still wanted me in his life. And I
learned to be a secondary, rather than a near-primary, and we'd pretty
much worked through the issues.
Not surprisingly, lots of thoughts and memories of R, and R and me, came
bubbling up--good, bad and otherwise. He and I had had infrequent
contact over the years since the split, mainly by e-mail and of a
generally not-very-personal nature. Quite civil and polite. During an
especially unpleasant spell with E, I saw that R was on Facebook and we
exchanged some messages which progressed to a phone call. My intention
had been to bounce some poly stuff off of him but the conversation never
quite got to that point. However, a day or three later, I did send R
e-mail asking him if he'd really meant it, all those years ago, when
he'd said, "I love you. Always and forever."
That led to most contact--e-mail, FB messages, phone calls. He even
learned to send text messages when I pointed out the convenience of
them. Due to changes in our jobs/financial situation, the option of
resuming an LDR that needs plane tickets is no longer feasible. We'd
been kind of tip-toeing around the "are we interested in getting back
together? Is it feasible to do so? How could we make it work? Did we
want it to work?" ideas, without coming up with any reasonable answers,
other than acknowledging we were both interested in seeing where things
might go if we had the chance.
Then the chance presented itself in a most unexpected way. My father
lives ~6-7hrs from R, a distance that is reasonable for (not every)
weekend visits. Due to his declining health, he's asked that we move to
where he lives, in fact, into his house. He'll move into the apartment
next door (same house; it has two rental units plus the one he lives in
now). WE'll be close enough to be helpful as needed but not living in
one another's pockets with all the stress that creates. And until we're
moved permanently, we'll be back and forth frequently, sometimes for
extended intervals.
Had my father asked this of us six months ago, before M entered E's life
and I was demoted, it would have been very hard to say yes happily,
although I suspect that would've been the answer anyway. OTOH, making
that move now means it's definitely feasible to have a relatinoship with
R again. And E says he already has one LDR girlfriend; he can have two.
:-)
In the last five weeks, the relationship between R and me has kind of
exploded (in a good way). Emotionally we're as connected as we were at
the best points of the Before Times, if not moreso. R is kicking
himself for pushing me away seven years ago -- says it's the stupidest
thing he's ever done. (His relationship with K ended three years ago
and he's not sure how it lasted that long.) We're committed to making
it work and he's asked me to be handfasted with him. (I said yes.) We
have long phone conversations daily, usually twice, with a brief one at
lunchtime. We spend a good amount of time on the computer. We spent
the last weekend of March together, attending an annual event of an
organization to which we both belong. We had a blastingly good time.
We'd been looking at Memorial Day weekend as the next likely time
together, a camping event with all four of us (Ken, L, R and me). After
that first weekend together, the thought of waiting eight weeks made R
kind of crazy and we met partway between my father's and R's houses last
SAturday for an overnight visit with nothing specific planned. It was
wonderful. Driving home in opposite directions was not easy.
Since then, R has become exceptionally jealous of my relationship with
E, a new reaction for him. He's beating himself up over losing me years
ago. Back then, I let him persuade me to end a 19yr very clandestine
relationship because it "made him uncomfortable". In hindsight, I've
always regretted that. Now R is an emotional basket case at the thought
of my being naked in a hot tub with E or of our sleeping together.
Other activities? Not a problem at all.
I don't know what to do. I don't want to end my relationship with E; we
love each other and enjoy being together even if it isn't as frequently
as it used to be. I've come to terms with being a secondary. R has
proposed several possibilities, starting with ending the relationship
completely (not an option!) and ranging through continueing to do things
together, but not sexually to limiting our visits together to one
overnight every three weeks (a frequency that results in what he
guesstimates our total number of nights together per year to be).
If someone tries to push me into a direction I don't want to go, I tend
to dig my heels in even more firmly. (Just ask Ken. Oh, look. He's
nodding vigorously.) I am not totally convinced that E's and my
relationship will survive once the move is permanent, although he said
earlier today that he thinks we can make it work even then. I don't
want to lose the relationship with R. But his jealousy is making both
of us crazy (unhappy, not insane).
R feels that he's offered several options as compromises and all I've
said is no, which is kind of true. It's not been a negotiation because
I don't have anything with which to counter-offer. Ken and R and I have
pretty much resumed our co-primaries status from before and R feels
rather strongly that a primary should come first and get more (time
together; input into what happens; etc.) than a secondary does. Right
now, mostly given the geography, it is likely I will have more
opportunities to see E than i will R, at least for a while. And for all
that R's and my relationship is emotionally as deep as ever, in some
ways I feel it's kind of a new relationship, coming into the established
one with E, a sentiment R doesn't share.
So I'm at a loss. I guess I want to have my cake and eat it too. I
don't want to lose E nor do I want restrictions put on the time we can
have together; I think that time is going to be limited plenty just by
our respective schedules. But I don't want to lose R either. I do see
us having a long term future together but it feels like we need a little
time to work through these wrinkles, ones that would've been dealt with
more gradually if it really were a new relationship.
And I am VERY glad indeed that I have the world's most wonderful husband
in Ken; he's been patient and supportive and lent his ear and offered
gentle advice and more.
So....if anyone's made it this far, I guess I'm looking for suggestions
of how I can help R deal with it all. He's not handling it well--not
eating, not sleeping, and so on. We're not exactly fighting but neither
are we as happy as we were last week. I really don't want to say, "Suck
it up, sweetie. This jealousy is your problem." I don't think it's
that one-sided.
Any ideas?
Clarissa
who should probably proof-read this but isn't going to; sorry
I'm new to this group myself but my husband has read, and shared bits
of, alt.poly for years. I am now in a new situation and I'm hoping
others can offer advice/support/etc.
BAckground: Ken and I have been poly since before we were married,
nearly 24 years ago. For the last four years, my only otherlove has
been E who lives 50miles away. He is single and has been in a
relationship with W who lives farther away, an arrangement they both
agree is right for them. Ken currently has no otherlove.
Fifteen years ago, R and I became otherloves. From the very beginning,
there was a depth to the relationship that surprised both of us, rather
as if there'd been an R-shaped hole in my life that I hadn't known was
there (and ditto for him). We had some ups and downs but, by and large,
we had 7.5 very, very good years together despite living 700+miles apart
and seeing each other (usually) every 6-8 weeks or so. The words
"always and forever" were frequent and I believed we both meant what we
were saying. Seven years ago, he started a physical relationship with K
(who lived near by), which was in violation of our agreements at the
time and which he unsuccessfully tried to hide from me. I was willing
to try and work things out for all of us (he's been married to L for 30+
years and they've been poly most of that time) but he was kind of
besotted with K and resisted most of my efforts, finally breaking up
with me.
Over the last four years, I'd come to function in many ways as a primary
for E--grocery shopping, cooking, baby-sitting, laundry, household
repair assistance, car repair/maintenance assistance, social activities
(parties, concerts, sports events, school activities and more) and so
on. We didn't really use the terms primary/secondary, mainly because
there was no need to do so.
Somewhere between five and six months ago, E began a relationship with
M, a woman with no poly experience at all. He admitted to being
"smitten" with her; "besotted" comes closer, IMO. Because of her job, M
has little free time on weeknights so my usual "Friday/Saturday nights
most weeks" visits pretty quickly became "only one weeknight" visits.
Plans with M took priority over almost everything else. I had clearly
been "demoted" to secondary.
It was not an easy transition by any stretch of the imagination. The
only "model" I had for a third poly relationship was the one from years
earlier with R, which ended most unpleasantly indeed. I felt threatened
by E's relationship with M, as if the handwriting were already on the
wall telling the end of E and me was coming. I cried more in the first
four months of E's relationship with M than I had in the previous almost
four years. To give him credit, E was very up front about what was
going on, and did nothing deliberately cruel. We talked a *lot* and he
provided lots of reassurance that he still wanted me in his life. And I
learned to be a secondary, rather than a near-primary, and we'd pretty
much worked through the issues.
Not surprisingly, lots of thoughts and memories of R, and R and me, came
bubbling up--good, bad and otherwise. He and I had had infrequent
contact over the years since the split, mainly by e-mail and of a
generally not-very-personal nature. Quite civil and polite. During an
especially unpleasant spell with E, I saw that R was on Facebook and we
exchanged some messages which progressed to a phone call. My intention
had been to bounce some poly stuff off of him but the conversation never
quite got to that point. However, a day or three later, I did send R
e-mail asking him if he'd really meant it, all those years ago, when
he'd said, "I love you. Always and forever."
That led to most contact--e-mail, FB messages, phone calls. He even
learned to send text messages when I pointed out the convenience of
them. Due to changes in our jobs/financial situation, the option of
resuming an LDR that needs plane tickets is no longer feasible. We'd
been kind of tip-toeing around the "are we interested in getting back
together? Is it feasible to do so? How could we make it work? Did we
want it to work?" ideas, without coming up with any reasonable answers,
other than acknowledging we were both interested in seeing where things
might go if we had the chance.
Then the chance presented itself in a most unexpected way. My father
lives ~6-7hrs from R, a distance that is reasonable for (not every)
weekend visits. Due to his declining health, he's asked that we move to
where he lives, in fact, into his house. He'll move into the apartment
next door (same house; it has two rental units plus the one he lives in
now). WE'll be close enough to be helpful as needed but not living in
one another's pockets with all the stress that creates. And until we're
moved permanently, we'll be back and forth frequently, sometimes for
extended intervals.
Had my father asked this of us six months ago, before M entered E's life
and I was demoted, it would have been very hard to say yes happily,
although I suspect that would've been the answer anyway. OTOH, making
that move now means it's definitely feasible to have a relatinoship with
R again. And E says he already has one LDR girlfriend; he can have two.
:-)
In the last five weeks, the relationship between R and me has kind of
exploded (in a good way). Emotionally we're as connected as we were at
the best points of the Before Times, if not moreso. R is kicking
himself for pushing me away seven years ago -- says it's the stupidest
thing he's ever done. (His relationship with K ended three years ago
and he's not sure how it lasted that long.) We're committed to making
it work and he's asked me to be handfasted with him. (I said yes.) We
have long phone conversations daily, usually twice, with a brief one at
lunchtime. We spend a good amount of time on the computer. We spent
the last weekend of March together, attending an annual event of an
organization to which we both belong. We had a blastingly good time.
We'd been looking at Memorial Day weekend as the next likely time
together, a camping event with all four of us (Ken, L, R and me). After
that first weekend together, the thought of waiting eight weeks made R
kind of crazy and we met partway between my father's and R's houses last
SAturday for an overnight visit with nothing specific planned. It was
wonderful. Driving home in opposite directions was not easy.
Since then, R has become exceptionally jealous of my relationship with
E, a new reaction for him. He's beating himself up over losing me years
ago. Back then, I let him persuade me to end a 19yr very clandestine
relationship because it "made him uncomfortable". In hindsight, I've
always regretted that. Now R is an emotional basket case at the thought
of my being naked in a hot tub with E or of our sleeping together.
Other activities? Not a problem at all.
I don't know what to do. I don't want to end my relationship with E; we
love each other and enjoy being together even if it isn't as frequently
as it used to be. I've come to terms with being a secondary. R has
proposed several possibilities, starting with ending the relationship
completely (not an option!) and ranging through continueing to do things
together, but not sexually to limiting our visits together to one
overnight every three weeks (a frequency that results in what he
guesstimates our total number of nights together per year to be).
If someone tries to push me into a direction I don't want to go, I tend
to dig my heels in even more firmly. (Just ask Ken. Oh, look. He's
nodding vigorously.) I am not totally convinced that E's and my
relationship will survive once the move is permanent, although he said
earlier today that he thinks we can make it work even then. I don't
want to lose the relationship with R. But his jealousy is making both
of us crazy (unhappy, not insane).
R feels that he's offered several options as compromises and all I've
said is no, which is kind of true. It's not been a negotiation because
I don't have anything with which to counter-offer. Ken and R and I have
pretty much resumed our co-primaries status from before and R feels
rather strongly that a primary should come first and get more (time
together; input into what happens; etc.) than a secondary does. Right
now, mostly given the geography, it is likely I will have more
opportunities to see E than i will R, at least for a while. And for all
that R's and my relationship is emotionally as deep as ever, in some
ways I feel it's kind of a new relationship, coming into the established
one with E, a sentiment R doesn't share.
So I'm at a loss. I guess I want to have my cake and eat it too. I
don't want to lose E nor do I want restrictions put on the time we can
have together; I think that time is going to be limited plenty just by
our respective schedules. But I don't want to lose R either. I do see
us having a long term future together but it feels like we need a little
time to work through these wrinkles, ones that would've been dealt with
more gradually if it really were a new relationship.
And I am VERY glad indeed that I have the world's most wonderful husband
in Ken; he's been patient and supportive and lent his ear and offered
gentle advice and more.
So....if anyone's made it this far, I guess I'm looking for suggestions
of how I can help R deal with it all. He's not handling it well--not
eating, not sleeping, and so on. We're not exactly fighting but neither
are we as happy as we were last week. I really don't want to say, "Suck
it up, sweetie. This jealousy is your problem." I don't think it's
that one-sided.
Any ideas?
Clarissa
who should probably proof-read this but isn't going to; sorry
Message has been deleted
Steve Pope
Apr 11, 2013, 3:02:29 PM4/11/13
to
My idle first thought is: what about if you throw the words
primary and secondary out of your vocabulary? I sense that this
language is being used to try to enact promises and expectations
in a manner that is not totally working.
I also get the vague sense, and it's a little unfair having heard
your version of the story, that the net intent behind R's
first communicating jealousy (in a way that seems to demand change),
and then presenting you with several "options" is an attempt
to box you in. This gets into the tricky terrirtory of what
precisely a life-long commitment is (you and R seem to both
want this; but is it a commitment when someone wants change at
a less-than-comfortable pace?)
I empathize with you, as you are facing sets of parameters
somewhat similar to what I have seen in my life. Good luck with everything.
Steve
primary and secondary out of your vocabulary? I sense that this
language is being used to try to enact promises and expectations
in a manner that is not totally working.
I also get the vague sense, and it's a little unfair having heard
your version of the story, that the net intent behind R's
first communicating jealousy (in a way that seems to demand change),
and then presenting you with several "options" is an attempt
to box you in. This gets into the tricky terrirtory of what
precisely a life-long commitment is (you and R seem to both
want this; but is it a commitment when someone wants change at
a less-than-comfortable pace?)
I empathize with you, as you are facing sets of parameters
somewhat similar to what I have seen in my life. Good luck with everything.
Steve
Stef
Apr 12, 2013, 8:07:57 PM4/12/13
to
In article <51666390...@bright.net>,
met E? That can help a lot.
You and R need some structure in your relationship; you need something
special for the two of you, and you need some time and space to
redevelop trust. If you can get those things established, then R might
not feel so threatened by your relationship with E.
Your mileage might vary, but personally I think it would be a wrong move
to let R dictate any of the terms of your relationship with E or
encourage his being competitive with E for time and priority. Set up
some structure with R and then make a rule that what goes on outside
that structure is something he doesn't have a say in. Even a "primary"
doesn't have to have a say in everything you do.
More generally, I guess what I would tend to do in a case like this is
tell R where my boundaries are, and make it clear that I am open to
changing my behavior that's within those boundaries, and I am open to
listening actively to whatever he has to say about his feelings about
those boundaries, but I am not open to changing my behavior outside
those boundaries, and I am not open to his having a say in where the
boundaries are.
I'm speaking from the point of view of someone who has been very jealous
at times. My jealousy comes from not knowing where I stand and feeling
trapped or feeling like I'm expected to be more committed than my
partner is. Structure helps me know where I stand. But the feeling
trapped /overcommitted part is tricky because chances are I trapped
myself by making commitments in my head before enough trust/structure
exists in the relationship to support them. If R is someone who throws
himself into things and then has doubts afterward, that might be part of
what's going on for him.
--
Stef ** st...@cat-and-dragon.com **
** firecat.dreamwidth.org ** fatfriendlydocs.com **
**
Love...is the extremely difficult realization that something other than
oneself is real. -- Iris Murdoch
Clarissakoala <ko...@bright.net> wrote:
>So....if anyone's made it this far, I guess I'm looking for suggestions
>of how I can help R deal with it all. He's not handling it well--not
>eating, not sleeping, and so on. We're not exactly fighting but neither
>are we as happy as we were last week. I really don't want to say, "Suck
>it up, sweetie. This jealousy is your problem." I don't think it's
>that one-sided.
If you mentioned this in your post then I'm sorry I missed it, but has R
>So....if anyone's made it this far, I guess I'm looking for suggestions
>of how I can help R deal with it all. He's not handling it well--not
>eating, not sleeping, and so on. We're not exactly fighting but neither
>are we as happy as we were last week. I really don't want to say, "Suck
>it up, sweetie. This jealousy is your problem." I don't think it's
>that one-sided.
met E? That can help a lot.
You and R need some structure in your relationship; you need something
special for the two of you, and you need some time and space to
redevelop trust. If you can get those things established, then R might
not feel so threatened by your relationship with E.
Your mileage might vary, but personally I think it would be a wrong move
to let R dictate any of the terms of your relationship with E or
encourage his being competitive with E for time and priority. Set up
some structure with R and then make a rule that what goes on outside
that structure is something he doesn't have a say in. Even a "primary"
doesn't have to have a say in everything you do.
More generally, I guess what I would tend to do in a case like this is
tell R where my boundaries are, and make it clear that I am open to
changing my behavior that's within those boundaries, and I am open to
listening actively to whatever he has to say about his feelings about
those boundaries, but I am not open to changing my behavior outside
those boundaries, and I am not open to his having a say in where the
boundaries are.
I'm speaking from the point of view of someone who has been very jealous
at times. My jealousy comes from not knowing where I stand and feeling
trapped or feeling like I'm expected to be more committed than my
partner is. Structure helps me know where I stand. But the feeling
trapped /overcommitted part is tricky because chances are I trapped
myself by making commitments in my head before enough trust/structure
exists in the relationship to support them. If R is someone who throws
himself into things and then has doubts afterward, that might be part of
what's going on for him.
--
Stef ** st...@cat-and-dragon.com **
** firecat.dreamwidth.org ** fatfriendlydocs.com **
**
Love...is the extremely difficult realization that something other than
oneself is real. -- Iris Murdoch
Serene Vannoy
Apr 13, 2013, 12:23:39 PM4/13/13
to
On 04/11/2013 12:17 AM, Clarissakoala wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm new to this group myself but my husband has read, and shared bits
> of, alt.poly for years. I am now in a new situation and I'm hoping
> others can offer advice/support/etc.
Welcome to alt.poly. I may answer this in two sittings, since I've got
> Hi,
>
> I'm new to this group myself but my husband has read, and shared bits
> of, alt.poly for years. I am now in a new situation and I'm hoping
> others can offer advice/support/etc.
stuff going on this morning, but thank you for sharing it.
>
> BAckground: Ken and I have been poly since before we were married,
> nearly 24 years ago. For the last four years, my only otherlove has
> been E who lives 50miles away. He is single
> and has been in a
> relationship with W who lives farther away, an arrangement they both
> agree is right for them. Ken currently has no otherlove.
>
> Fifteen years ago, R and I became otherloves. From the very beginning,
> there was a depth to the relationship that surprised both of us, rather
> as if there'd been an R-shaped hole in my life that I hadn't known was
> there (and ditto for him). We had some ups and downs but, by and large,
> we had 7.5 very, very good years together despite living 700+miles apart
> and seeing each other (usually) every 6-8 weeks or so. The words
> "always and forever" were frequent and I believed we both meant what we
> were saying. Seven years ago, he started a physical relationship with K
> (who lived near by), which was in violation of our agreements at the
> time and which he unsuccessfully tried to hide from me.
(Don't if you don't want, but I had agreements like this that I didn't
keep in the past, and from sad experience I now know I shouldn't give
other people any say over who I see/love/fuck. But that's me.)
> I was willing
> to try and work things out for all of us (he's been married to L for 30+
> years and they've been poly most of that time) but he was kind of
> besotted with K and resisted most of my efforts, finally breaking up
> with me.
>
> Over the last four years, I'd come to function in many ways as a primary
> for E--grocery shopping, cooking, baby-sitting, laundry, household
> repair assistance, car repair/maintenance assistance, social activities
> (parties, concerts, sports events, school activities and more) and so
> on. We didn't really use the terms primary/secondary, mainly because
> there was no need to do so.
>
> Somewhere between five and six months ago, E began a relationship with
> M, a woman with no poly experience at all. He admitted to being
> "smitten" with her; "besotted" comes closer, IMO. Because of her job, M
> has little free time on weeknights so my usual "Friday/Saturday nights
> most weeks" visits pretty quickly became "only one weeknight" visits.
> Plans with M took priority over almost everything else. I had clearly
> been "demoted" to secondary.
and secondary, I don't think it's fair that you are saying he "demoted"
you when there may not have been any ranking there, in his mind.
More soon.
Serene
--
My food blog: http://www.momfoodproject.com
My small-press literary magazine: http://42magazine.com
--
My food blog: http://www.momfoodproject.com
My small-press literary magazine: http://42magazine.com
Orlando Enrique Fiol
Apr 13, 2013, 2:38:36 PM4/13/13
to
st...@panix.com wrote:
>I'm speaking from the point of view of someone who has been very jealous
>at times. My jealousy comes from not knowing where I stand and feeling
>trapped or feeling like I'm expected to be more committed than my
>partner is. Structure helps me know where I stand. But the feeling
>trapped /overcommitted part is tricky because chances are I trapped
>myself by making commitments in my head before enough trust/structure
>exists in the relationship to support them.
I'm the diametric opposite; commitment helps build trust for me. Until there's
>I'm speaking from the point of view of someone who has been very jealous
>at times. My jealousy comes from not knowing where I stand and feeling
>trapped or feeling like I'm expected to be more committed than my
>partner is. Structure helps me know where I stand. But the feeling
>trapped /overcommitted part is tricky because chances are I trapped
>myself by making commitments in my head before enough trust/structure
>exists in the relationship to support them.
a commitment, I feel insecure because I know I can be left at any time. Of
course, I can be left even with a commitment, but a commitment at least secures
an intent to stay. Rather than having commitment result from a structure, I
find it to be one of my most reliable structures. Does that make sense?
Orlando Enrique Fiol
Apr 13, 2013, 2:40:36 PM4/13/13
to
ser...@serenepages.org wrote:
>I had agreements like this that I didn't keep in the past, and from sad
experience I now know I shouldn't give other people any say over who I
see/love/fuck. But that's me.)
Don't your personal decisions about who you love or fuck affect the others
>I had agreements like this that I didn't keep in the past, and from sad
experience I now know I shouldn't give other people any say over who I
see/love/fuck. But that's me.)
you're loving and fucking?
Steve Pope
Apr 13, 2013, 3:15:36 PM4/13/13
to
Clarissakoala <ko...@bright.net> wrote:
>[snip] During an
Another thought, I wonder whether R gained an unduly negative
association with E because R first became aware of E when you and
E were having an "unpleasant spell" and this negative first
impression has stuck with him. The fact that you re-contacted
R during exactly the time frame when this unpleasant spell was occuring
could have created a really strong mix of emotions for R.
Steve
>[snip] During an
>especially unpleasant spell with E, I saw that R was on Facebook and we
>exchanged some messages which progressed to a phone call.
>[snip]
>exchanged some messages which progressed to a phone call.
>Since then, R has become exceptionally jealous of my relationship with
>E, a new reaction for him.
>[snip]
>E, a new reaction for him.
Another thought, I wonder whether R gained an unduly negative
association with E because R first became aware of E when you and
E were having an "unpleasant spell" and this negative first
impression has stuck with him. The fact that you re-contacted
R during exactly the time frame when this unpleasant spell was occuring
could have created a really strong mix of emotions for R.
Steve
mc...@pitt.edu
Apr 15, 2013, 8:32:11 PM4/15/13
to
On Thursday, April 11, 2013 3:17:36 AM UTC-4, Clarissakoala wrote:
> Fifteen years ago, R and I became otherloves.
> Fifteen years ago, R and I became otherloves.
> Seven years ago, he started a physical relationship with K
> (who lived near by), which was in violation of our agreements
> at the time and which he unsuccessfully tried to hide from me.
> (who lived near by), which was in violation of our agreements
> at the time and which he unsuccessfully tried to hide from me.
> Since then, R has become exceptionally jealous of my relationship with E, a new reaction for him.
> Back then, I let him persuade me to end a 19yr very clandestine
> relationship because it "made him uncomfortable".
> relationship because it "made him uncomfortable".
> Now R is an emotional basket case at the thought of my being naked
> in a hot tub with E or of our sleeping together.
> in a hot tub with E or of our sleeping together.
> But his jealousy is making both of us crazy (unhappy, not insane).
> in some ways I feel it's kind of a new relationship, coming
> into the established one with E, a sentiment R doesn't share.
All this makews we wonder if R is ready for a poly relationship?
> into the established one with E, a sentiment R doesn't share.
> I really don't want to say, "Suck it up, sweetie. This jealousy is your problem."
And the jealousy is, indeed, his problem.
Orlando Enrique Fiol
May 20, 2014, 4:16:55 PM5/20/14
to
st...@panix.com wrote:
>You and R need some structure in your relationship; you need something
>special for the two of you, and you need some time and space to
>redevelop trust. If you can get those things established, then R might
>not feel so threatened by your relationship with E.
I also think R lacks legitimacy to make these demands because he broke up with
>You and R need some structure in your relationship; you need something
>special for the two of you, and you need some time and space to
>redevelop trust. If you can get those things established, then R might
>not feel so threatened by your relationship with E.
Clorissa after getting smitten by K.
>Your mileage might vary, but personally I think it would be a wrong move
>to let R dictate any of the terms of your relationship with E or
>encourage his being competitive with E for time and priority. Set up
>some structure with R and then make a rule that what goes on outside
>that structure is something he doesn't have a say in. Even a "primary"
>doesn't have to have a say in everything you do.
partner does, especially if the issues in question don't affect the primary
relationship. But what if the effects are emotional and intangible? If R can't
stand it when Clorissa is naked in a hot tub with E and is losing sleep over
that, doesn't he theoretically deserve a say in his ongoing physical/mental
health? The theoretical answer is obviously yes, which is why legitimacy enters
the discussion. If R proved historically unable/unwilling to keep his
commitment to Clorissa, he should lose veto privileges.
>More generally, I guess what I would tend to do in a case like this is
>tell R where my boundaries are, and make it clear that I am open to
>changing my behavior that's within those boundaries, and I am open to
>listening actively to whatever he has to say about his feelings about
>those boundaries, but I am not open to changing my behavior outside
>those boundaries, and I am not open to his having a say in where the
>boundaries are.
on that model. In real life, everyone affected by certain behaviors develops
boundaries around them. It's not fair for one person to include/exclude
boundaries while another is affected. It's also probably futile for men like me
to try and convince women that this boundary paradigm won't work for me.
>I'm speaking from the point of view of someone who has been very jealous
>at times. My jealousy comes from not knowing where I stand and feeling
>trapped or feeling like I'm expected to be more committed than my
>partner is.
With what right does he now demand that Clorissa show him even more commitment?
>Structure helps me know where I stand. But the feeling
>trapped /overcommitted part is tricky because chances are I trapped
>myself by making commitments in my head before enough trust/structure
>exists in the relationship to support them.
structures to support the kind of commitment we desire. If commitments are
predicated on structures and trust, what motivates the establishment of
structures and trust?
>If R is someone who throws himself into things and then has doubts afterward,
that might be part of what's going on for him.
autonomous behaviors I believe falls outside the realm of individual
boundaries. Here is R, asking Clarissa to change her relationships for him
without demonstrating enough consistency to substantiate those demands. I think
that for everything demanded, the demander must provide something equally
difficult.
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