social class and relationships
heather e blair
of differences in social class. In one case, the partners
were both from very modest backgrounds (the children of people
who owned small grocery stores and fruit stands). One wanted
to claw their way into the upper middle class, and the other one
found they had no interest in doing so. They got a divorce.
In another case, a friend of mine who was a student, married
an art student. The art student got a business job, got very
interested in business and getting wealthy, and couldn't stand
the grad-student lifestyle anymore. They got a divorce, too.
Do any of y'all have thoughts about how partners can negotiate
either differences in social class background, or differences
in desire about class-climbing? Is it different when there
is more than two primary partners? Is it easier/harder to
have secondary partners of different social classes?
I seem to be mushing family background, career ambition, and
consumption all into one wad. Feel free to pull the strands
apart.
--
"Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate things." -- Vice President
Dan Quayle, 11/30/88
Noel Lynne Figart
news:FHCHr...@midway.uchicago.edu...
> Do any of y'all have thoughts about how partners can negotiate
> either differences in social class background, or differences
> in desire about class-climbing?
The difference between wealth and class (In my mind) is so very vast that
this question is a little confusing. I expect it's a regional thing. In
the South, money and social class are NOT the same thing. You cannot buy
your way into a St. Cecilia ball. That aside, I did <HEAVENS!> marry a
Yankee and a Catholic and only got one snide remark from my family.
However, I married someone of a remarkably similar background --
regionalism aside. My other loves are of very different backgrounds. One
expresses a contempt for all wealth --which I find mildly amusing. I
couldn't care less about the trappings of wealth, but I am shallow enough to
be happier when I have the option of giving my 12 year old car the
maintenence it needs (that could either mean having the cash to pay for it
or having a friend who wants to fix it). I am also happier when I have the
funds to meet my bills. I am happier now that my husband and I have no debt
(hence the old car). I only wear "designer original" clothing (My own
label <grin> I design them myself)
I like both "status" things and "non-status" things. I went on a cruise
when I was a teenager and long for the day when I can do that again. A
carribean cruise is majorly fun! So's camping.
I do think that when couples have radically different life goals that it is
a problem. Money conflicts are often cited as a major reason for mates
breaking up the partnership.
> Is it different when there
> is more than two primary partners? Is it easier/harder to
> have secondary partners of different social classes?
I'm not entirely sure. My thought is that if you add more variables to the
equation, it's *going* to become more complex. The key is the same as in a
monogamous marriage, though. Comminication and comprimise.
>
> I seem to be mushing family background, career ambition, and
> consumption all into one wad. Feel free to pull the strands
> apart.
I've tried to a bit.
__________________________________________
Noel, Axe of the BABs, Mum to He Who Groks Sand,
Goshness of Garb Commandments, and She Who
Truly Groks Coffee.
AIM NoelFigart
ICQ 3478905
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/6419
Rules for Evil Overlords #134
If I am escaping in a large truck and the hero
is pursuing me in a small Italian sports car,
I will not wait for the hero to pull up alongside
of me and try to force him off the road as he
attempts to climb aboard. Instead I will
slam on the brakes when he's directly behind
me. (A rudimentary knowledge of physics
can prove quite useful.)
Some Guy on a Bike
blair) wrote:
> Do any of y'all have thoughts about how partners can negotiate
> either differences in social class background, or differences
> in desire about class-climbing? Is it different when there
> is more than two primary partners? Is it easier/harder to
> have secondary partners of different social classes?
In my own personal case, I have a deep horror of "falling" to lower
class (probably inherited from my mother, and my own fears from having
been imnproverished, but never bowed), and I have a deep disgust for
the "fucking everyone for everything they're worth" business/wealthy
class (as I hate my father, and that's what he's about). So I guess
that MY issues with class have more to do with my life than anything,
and I don't know if they'll ever be mutable.
Then again, to me, class is more of a mindset than a
family/inheritance situation, or a neighborhood you live in, or even
how much money you have. I know people like me intellectually and in
terms of mindset who are rich, and those who are destitute. They live
all over, and have a variety of interests and friends.
--
============================================================================
Adam Wade CWRA #4 SDWL #2 som...@somewhere.u.cant.reach
CIMC #1 DoD #2009 LOMP #2 "The only way I'll stop riding
1990 Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Daphne) is if I stop breathing."
============================================================================
Kitters
>
> I've known of a couple of relationships that broke up because
> of differences in social class. In one case, the partners
> were both from very modest backgrounds (the children of people
> who owned small grocery stores and fruit stands). One wanted
> to claw their way into the upper middle class, and the other one
> found they had no interest in doing so. They got a divorce.
>
> In another case, a friend of mine who was a student, married
> an art student. The art student got a business job, got very
> interested in business and getting wealthy, and couldn't stand
> the grad-student lifestyle anymore. They got a divorce, too.
>
> either differences in social class background, or differences
> in desire about class-climbing? Is it different when there
> is more than two primary partners? Is it easier/harder to
> have secondary partners of different social classes?
>
> consumption all into one wad. Feel free to pull the strands
> apart.
I don't really buy into the social class/class climbing thing.
To me, it's only just so much crap. I'm unclear on what exactly
is "upper middle class" and what exactly is the "grad student
lifestyle", having never identified with either one. Does "upper
middle class" mean cell phones and pagers and shopping at
Nordstrom's? Does "grad student lifestyle" mean an apartment full
of beanbags and cinder-block tables? Those labels bring up all
these tired stereotypes and I think it might be hindering me from
understanding your question.
The two examples you give strike me that they're about getting
(or not getting!) *stuff*, which I don't see as a social class
thing at all. Seems more like an enormous gap in value systems,
which, if that's the case for me personally, I can't muster
enough attraction to the dissenting party to even consider a
relationship.
My husband and I are like minded about such things (I don't need
*much* stuff, by my standard of Stuff In General, but I'm
salivating over a cut-rate jacuzzi at Costco). My lover makes
substantially less money, is *ahem* a bit younger, and
has/wants/needs generally less *stuff*. I could care less,
because his heart is in the right place, and our priorities are
similar.
How badly did I botch your question? ;)
Kit
heather e blair
Noel Lynne Figart <noel...@erols.com> wrote:
>heather e blair <h4...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
>news:FHCHr...@midway.uchicago.edu...
>
>> either differences in social class background, or differences
>> in desire about class-climbing?
>
>this question is a little confusing. I expect it's a regional thing. In
>the South, money and social class are NOT the same thing. You cannot buy
>your way into a St. Cecilia ball. That aside, I did <HEAVENS!> marry a
>Yankee and a Catholic and only got one snide remark from my family.
I think that's more the case in Virginia, Carolinas, Georgia, and less
so in Arkansas and Texas, where you can to some degree buy your way
in. (Especially in the hill country where there was never any
plantation aristocracy.) I'm from Arkansas, and I never heard of
debutantes until a friend from New Orleans was threatened with having
to be one. (She was a cute little tomboy, and I just couldn't
see her in one of those dresses once she explained to me what the
threat entailed.)
>However, I married someone of a remarkably similar background --
>regionalism aside. My other loves are of very different backgrounds. One
>expresses a contempt for all wealth --which I find mildly amusing. I
>couldn't care less about the trappings of wealth, but I am shallow enough to
>be happier when I have the option of giving my 12 year old car the
>maintenence it needs (that could either mean having the cash to pay for it
>or having a friend who wants to fix it). I am also happier when I have the
>funds to meet my bills. I am happier now that my husband and I have no debt
>(hence the old car). I only wear "designer original" clothing (My own
>label <grin> I design them myself)
I think many people (and I'm one of them) like money for security more
than status. Sounds like you enjoy security -- like being able to
have a reliable car instead of a clunker.
>> Is it different when there
>> is more than two primary partners? Is it easier/harder to
>> have secondary partners of different social classes?
>
>I'm not entirely sure. My thought is that if you add more variables to the
>equation, it's *going* to become more complex. The key is the same as in a
>monogamous marriage, though. Comminication and comprimise.
I think I'm also wondering at what point does compromise become
impossible for people, when their values are too different and they
have to part ways.
heather e blair
Some Guy on a Bike <som...@somewhere.u.cant.reach> wrote:
>On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 19:50:01 GMT, h4...@midway.uchicago.edu (heather e
>blair) wrote:
>
>> either differences in social class background, or differences
>> is more than two primary partners? Is it easier/harder to
>> have secondary partners of different social classes?
>
>class (probably inherited from my mother, and my own fears from having
>been imnproverished, but never bowed), and I have a deep disgust for
>the "fucking everyone for everything they're worth" business/wealthy
>class (as I hate my father, and that's what he's about). So I guess
>that MY issues with class have more to do with my life than anything,
>and I don't know if they'll ever be mutable.
Does this mean you're searching for a comfortable middle that isn't
poor and isn't grasping?
heather e blair
Kitters <ter...@nctimes.net> wrote:
>I don't really buy into the social class/class climbing thing.
>To me, it's only just so much crap. I'm unclear on what exactly
>is "upper middle class" and what exactly is the "grad student
>lifestyle", having never identified with either one. Does "upper
>middle class" mean cell phones and pagers and shopping at
>Nordstrom's?
In the example I'm thinking of, it did have to do with consumption --
buying the right clothes, cars, toys (like cell phones) -- but
also trying to get into the good graces of other people like that
by means of cocktail parties and going to the right church (even
when you didn't believe in it.)
>Does "grad student lifestyle" mean an apartment full
>of beanbags and cinder-block tables?
I think probably so! Or just living in a cheap apartment with
cheap furniture and lots of books. Eating cheap food instead of
in trendy restaurants.
>Those labels bring up all
>these tired stereotypes and I think it might be hindering me from
>understanding your question.
Maybe I'm the one with the stereotypes and you've understood perfectly!
>The two examples you give strike me that they're about getting
>(or not getting!) *stuff*, which I don't see as a social class
>thing at all. Seems more like an enormous gap in value systems,
>which, if that's the case for me personally, I can't muster
>enough attraction to the dissenting party to even consider a
>relationship.
I think stuff and how much effort you're going to put in to getting
it *is* part of it, but there's also getting yourself into the
right social circles, and self-presentation (I guess that can count
as stuff).
>My husband and I are like minded about such things (I don't need
>*much* stuff, by my standard of Stuff In General, but I'm
>salivating over a cut-rate jacuzzi at Costco). My lover makes
>substantially less money, is *ahem* a bit younger, and
>has/wants/needs generally less *stuff*. I could care less,
>because his heart is in the right place, and our priorities are
>similar.
Do you feel that the three of you are in the same social circles
with respect to education, family background, etc, in spite of
some differences in income and stuff-acquisition?
>How badly did I botch your question? ;)
Not at all!
Noel Lynne Figart
> In article <7qhkkj$3of$1...@autumn.news.rcn.net>,
> Noel Lynne Figart <noel...@erols.com> wrote:
> >The difference between wealth and class (In my mind) is so very vast that
> >this question is a little confusing. I expect it's a regional thing. In
> >the South, money and social class are NOT the same thing. You cannot buy
> >your way into a St. Cecilia ball. That aside, I did <HEAVENS!> marry a
> >Yankee and a Catholic and only got one snide remark from my family.
>
> I think that's more the case in Virginia, Carolinas, Georgia, and less
> so in Arkansas and Texas, where you can to some degree buy your way
> in. (Especially in the hill country where there was never any
> plantation aristocracy.) I'm from Arkansas, and I never heard of
> debutantes until a friend from New Orleans was threatened with having
> to be one. (She was a cute little tomboy, and I just couldn't
> see her in one of those dresses once she explained to me what the
> threat entailed.)
I'm not claiming to have been a debutante. I wasn't. However, I am a 14th
generation Virginian... <grin>
> I think I'm also wondering at what point does compromise become
> impossible for people, when their values are too different and they
> have to part ways.
A good question. What do you think?
Kitters
>
> In article <37CDD73B...@nctimes.net>,
> Kitters <ter...@nctimes.net> wrote:
>
> >I don't really buy into the social class/class climbing thing.
> >To me, it's only just so much crap. I'm unclear on what exactly
> >is "upper middle class" and what exactly is the "grad student
> >lifestyle", having never identified with either one. Does "upper
> >middle class" mean cell phones and pagers and shopping at
> >Nordstrom's?
>
> In the example I'm thinking of, it did have to do with consumption --
> buying the right clothes, cars, toys (like cell phones) -- but
> also trying to get into the good graces of other people like that
> by means of cocktail parties and going to the right church (even
> when you didn't believe in it.)
I guess I can't relate. I had to buy a cell phone out of
necessity between work, school, and having a child in daycare.
(My husband sneered at it and said, "I don't want ANYTHING to DO
with THAT." Then he promptly borrowed it when his car went on
the fritz.) I have to go to cocktail parties when it's a
'sundowner' for work. But I always shop for clothes off the
clearance rack Aside from that, other people and their good
graces can kiss my ass. ;)
>
> >Does "grad student lifestyle" mean an apartment full
> >of beanbags and cinder-block tables?
>
> I think probably so! Or just living in a cheap apartment with
> cheap furniture and lots of books. Eating cheap food instead of
> in trendy restaurants.
>
Hey I have some books! My furniture is crap. I buy cheap food
and try to make fun stuff out of it, reserving trendy restaurants
for special occasions. But oops, I'm no grad student. I guess I
can't be in the club.
> >Those labels bring up all
> >these tired stereotypes and I think it might be hindering me from
> >understanding your question.
>
> Maybe I'm the one with the stereotypes and you've understood perfectly!
>
> >The two examples you give strike me that they're about getting
> >(or not getting!) *stuff*, which I don't see as a social class
> >thing at all. Seems more like an enormous gap in value systems,
> >which, if that's the case for me personally, I can't muster
> >enough attraction to the dissenting party to even consider a
> >relationship.
>
> I think stuff and how much effort you're going to put in to getting
> it *is* part of it, but there's also getting yourself into the
> right social circles, and self-presentation (I guess that can count
> as stuff).
>
Ah, but! Someone with a particular regard for their *status*
wouldn't interest me in the least, so it wouldn't cause a
conflict. (Let's see if I wind up eating my words on this one)
> >My husband and I are like minded about such things (I don't need
> >*much* stuff, by my standard of Stuff In General, but I'm
> >salivating over a cut-rate jacuzzi at Costco). My lover makes
> >substantially less money, is *ahem* a bit younger, and
> >has/wants/needs generally less *stuff*. I could care less,
> >because his heart is in the right place, and our priorities are
> >similar.
>
> Do you feel that the three of you are in the same social circles
> with respect to education, family background, etc, in spite of
> some differences in income and stuff-acquisition?
>
No, No, and no. We're not even in the same country. My lover is
the only one with a degree. Each of our respective families are
very, very different (though all probably equally
dysfunctional). My folks are typical yuppie baby boomers,
husband's mom (just his mother is still alive) is in her 70's and
owned a bar, and my lover's parents are probably considered low
income (though nearly my parent's age). I think I'm still having
trouble with "social circles". The only circle I'm aware of
contain the people I choose to include in my life. This isn't to
say things will never fall apart, I just doubt that it would be
because of *that*.
Kit
Jim Roberts
heather e blair wrote:
> In article <37CDD73B...@nctimes.net>,
> Kitters <ter...@nctimes.net> wrote:
>
> >I don't really buy into the social class/class climbing thing.
> >To me, it's only just so much crap. I'm unclear on what exactly
> >is "upper middle class" and what exactly is the "grad student
> >lifestyle", having never identified with either one. Does "upper
> >middle class" mean cell phones and pagers and shopping at
> >Nordstrom's?
>
> In the example I'm thinking of, it did have to do with consumption --
> buying the right clothes, cars, toys (like cell phones) -- but
> also trying to get into the good graces of other people like that
> by means of cocktail parties and going to the right church (even
> when you didn't believe in it.)
>
I learned many things in grad school, besides beautiful science. One was
not to trust your brother-in-law banker with your money. He doesn't care
and may even have been againt the marriage in the first place.
Nordstrom's has good womens' shoes.
>
> >Does "grad student lifestyle" mean an apartment full
> >of beanbags and cinder-block tables?
>
No. We managed through St Vincent de Paul. I was very good at varnishing.
>
> I think probably so! Or just living in a cheap apartment with
> cheap furniture and lots of books. Eating cheap food instead of
> in trendy restaurants.
>
> >Those labels bring up all
> >these tired stereotypes and I think it might be hindering me from
> >understanding your question.
>
You don't know, that's clear. We still go to first rate restaurants that
are cheap. Guess you never caught on.
>
> Maybe I'm the one with the stereotypes and you've understood perfectly!
>
> >The two examples you give strike me that they're about getting
> >(or not getting!) *stuff*, which I don't see as a social class
> >thing at all. Seems more like an enormous gap in value systems,
> >which, if that's the case for me personally, I can't muster
> >enough attraction to the dissenting party to even consider a
> >relationship.
>
I think not. And stop splitting infinitives.
>
> I think stuff and how much effort you're going to put in to getting
> it *is* part of it, but there's also getting yourself into the
> right social circles, and self-presentation (I guess that can count
> as stuff).
>
La-de-dah.
>
> >My husband and I are like minded about such things (I don't need
> >*much* stuff, by my standard of Stuff In General, but I'm
> >salivating over a cut-rate jacuzzi at Costco). My lover makes
> >substantially less money, is *ahem* a bit younger, and
> >has/wants/needs generally less *stuff*. I could care less,
> >because his heart is in the right place, and our priorities are
> >similar.
>
> Do you feel that the three of you are in the same social circles
> with respect to education, family background, etc, in spite of
> some differences in income and stuff-acquisition?
>
And do you, Heather, live south of the Loop? Very declasse.
jimbat
Aahz Maruch
heather e blair <h4...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
>I think I'm also wondering at what point does compromise become
>impossible for people, when their values are too different and they
>have to part ways.
IMO, compromise (particularly in the "half a loaf" sense) is frequently
a suboptimal approach for important decisions. My partner and I have
generally achieved greater success by *not* compromising, but finding
solutions both of us are genuinely reasonably happy with.
(For example, I like folk/contra dancing and my partner likes African
dancing, but neither of us likes the dancing the other does. Solution
is not to each go to something we dislike half the time, but to try
belly dancing.)
But getting back to your actual question, I haven't found that "values"
per se are an issue, but behaviors within the relationship that I
dislike enough to break up with the other person.
--
--- Aahz (@netcom.com)
Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het <*> http://www.rahul.net/aahz/
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 (if you want to know, do some research)
heather e blair
Noel Lynne Figart <noel...@erols.com> wrote:
>I'm not claiming to have been a debutante. I wasn't. However, I am a 14th
>generation Virginian... <grin>
cool! I wish I could trace my family back that far! But I'm pretty
certain if I did, it would be 14 generations of dirt-farmers. :-)
>> I think I'm also wondering at what point does compromise become
>> impossible for people, when their values are too different and they
>> have to part ways.
>
>A good question. What do you think?
I think in the cases I'm thinking about, the life-circumstances of
the people changed a lot from the time they fell in love. They
found themselves interested in very different things, (in one case,
a person had cancer, recovered, and re-evaluated their life-goals).
So I suppose this could happen to me, but I think I'm somewhat
set in my ways, and where I sit in the social class and "stuff"
scheme of things, is fairly apparent. But then, maybe not...
Jim Roberts
heather e blair wrote:
> In article <7qm0gm$4te$1...@autumn.news.rcn.net>,
> Noel Lynne Figart <noel...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> >I'm not claiming to have been a debutante. I wasn't. However, I am a 14th
> >generation Virginian... <grin>
>
> cool! I wish I could trace my family back that far! But I'm pretty
> certain if I did, it would be 14 generations of dirt-farmers. :-)
>
You are no more than 50th cousins to Hottentots. And you are related to Richard
II. So enjoy your Shakespeare and your anthropology. Me? I'm only two
generations removed from German pig-farmers, who were a damn sight smarter than
I.
[...]
>So I suppose this could happen to me, but I think I'm somewhat
> set in my ways, and where I sit in the social class and "stuff"
> scheme of things, is fairly apparent. But then, maybe not...
Yes, and yes. Never been in the Social Register have you not? Refused to pay
the fee?
jimbat
heather e blair
Aahz Maruch <aa...@netcom.com> wrote:
>IMO, compromise (particularly in the "half a loaf" sense) is frequently
>a suboptimal approach for important decisions. My partner and I have
>generally achieved greater success by *not* compromising, but finding
>solutions both of us are genuinely reasonably happy with.
>
>(For example, I like folk/contra dancing and my partner likes African
>dancing, but neither of us likes the dancing the other does. Solution
>is not to each go to something we dislike half the time, but to try
>belly dancing.)
That sounds smart! Are you both enjoying belly dancing? (I can't
dance at all because I can't figure out left and right fast enough
to move in time to music.)
>But getting back to your actual question, I haven't found that "values"
>per se are an issue, but behaviors within the relationship that I
>dislike enough to break up with the other person.
You know, I thought about what you're saying, and I think you're right.
In my first example, Partner A felt that it was very important to do
certain activities as a couple, (like cocktail parties) that Partner
B couldn't stand doing. They started doing more things separately,
but that led to more distance between them, etc. Also Partner B
felt very neglected while Partner A was busy being ambitious. So
values can motivate behavior, but it's probably the behavior that
impacts on the individuals and relationship.
heather e blair
Kitters <ter...@nctimes.net> wrote:
>> In the example I'm thinking of, it did have to do with consumption --
>> buying the right clothes, cars, toys (like cell phones) -- but
>> also trying to get into the good graces of other people like that
>> by means of cocktail parties and going to the right church (even
>> when you didn't believe in it.)
>
>I guess I can't relate. I had to buy a cell phone out of
>necessity between work, school, and having a child in daycare.
>(My husband sneered at it and said, "I don't want ANYTHING to DO
>with THAT." Then he promptly borrowed it when his car went on
>the fritz.)
So did he come around to thinking the cell phone was a necessity
rather than a luxury? It's this kind of disagreement that I'm
thinking of, but on a very large "lifestyle choice" scale.
And sometimes people can be hypocritical, where they call something
unnecessary, but then they mooch it off of you. (Er, I hope I
don't resemble that remark when I get friends to help me haul things
in their cars.)
>I have to go to cocktail parties when it's a
>'sundowner' for work.
Is this necessary? Or something you enjoy doing that'll be good
career-wise? (It's not that I think it's bad to do socializing that's
good for your career, I just worry about a life where all one's socializing
is thought of in this way.) Does your husband have to go to?
>But I always shop for clothes off the
>clearance rack Aside from that, other people and their good
>graces can kiss my ass. ;)
But you'll never be able to get your name on the Social Register
with that attitude! :-)
>> I think stuff and how much effort you're going to put in to getting
>> it *is* part of it, but there's also getting yourself into the
>> right social circles, and self-presentation (I guess that can count
>> as stuff).
>
>Ah, but! Someone with a particular regard for their *status*
>wouldn't interest me in the least, so it wouldn't cause a
>conflict. (Let's see if I wind up eating my words on this one)
That's how I feel about myself, but sometimes people can mistake
you for what you ain't, and sometimes people change into status-seekers
after they've hooked up with you. (As happened to the art student).
>No, No, and no. We're not even in the same country. My lover is
>the only one with a degree. Each of our respective families are
>very, very different (though all probably equally
>dysfunctional). My folks are typical yuppie baby boomers,
>husband's mom (just his mother is still alive) is in her 70's and
>owned a bar, and my lover's parents are probably considered low
>income (though nearly my parent's age). I think I'm still having
>trouble with "social circles". The only circle I'm aware of
>contain the people I choose to include in my life. This isn't to
>say things will never fall apart, I just doubt that it would be
>because of *that*.
(Hey, my grandma owned a bar, too!) I think I'm thinking of
"social circles" that aren't real heart-to-heart friends, but
people you think you ought to know. Kinda the adult version of
the popular kids in Junior High. (In fact, when I was growing up
these were the parents of the popular kids in Junior High. My
parents wondered why I didn't socialize with them.)
Some Guy on a Bike
blair) wrote:
> In article <37cc763...@news.mindspring.com>,
> Some Guy on a Bike <som...@somewhere.u.cant.reach> wrote:
>> On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 19:50:01 GMT, h4...@midway.uchicago.edu (heather e
>> blair) wrote:
>>> Do any of y'all have thoughts about how partners can negotiate
>>> either differences in social class background, or differences
>>> in desire about class-climbing? Is it different when there
>>> is more than two primary partners? Is it easier/harder to
>>> have secondary partners of different social classes?
>> In my own personal case, I have a deep horror of "falling" to lower
>> class (probably inherited from my mother, and my own fears from having
>> been imnproverished, but never bowed), and I have a deep disgust for
>> the "fucking everyone for everything they're worth" business/wealthy
>> class (as I hate my father, and that's what he's about). So I guess
>> that MY issues with class have more to do with my life than anything,
>> and I don't know if they'll ever be mutable.
> Does this mean you're searching for a comfortable middle that isn't
> poor and isn't grasping?
Absolutely. I'm sick of having to always be terrified about whether
I'll make it to the next payday. At the same time, I couldn't care
less if I'm wealthy, and can't understand those who make MORE money
just for the sake of making it. I'd like to be able to indulge my
finely-tuned aesthetic sense; I'd like to be able to buy things I WANT
and not have to worry about whether I'll make the bills next month or
not. But more realistically, I'd like to be able to pay the bills
comfortably, have something socked away for a rainy day, and be able
to indulge myself from time to time so I can feel like *I* have some
treats in life to look forward to.
Steve Pope
> Nordstrom's has good womens' shoes.
Ding. That's two spelling errors in one five-word sentence.
You're slipping, old boy.
Try: "Nordstrom has good women's shoes."
Steve
Kitters
>
> So did he come around to thinking the cell phone was a necessity
> rather than a luxury?
Nah, but it *is* a running joke. *Of course* we don't agree on
everything, but the difference there, I think, is perspective.
We don't sweat the small stuff anymore. A cell phone is small
stuff. ;)
It's this kind of disagreement that I'm
> thinking of, but on a very large "lifestyle choice" scale.
> And sometimes people can be hypocritical, where they call something
> unnecessary, but then they mooch it off of you. (Er, I hope I
> don't resemble that remark when I get friends to help me haul things
> in their cars.)
>
I can't think of anything that could be mooched that'd cause
separation or divorce. Hm. What am I missing?
[I said:]
> >I have to go to cocktail parties when it's a
> >'sundowner' for work.
>
> Is this necessary? Or something you enjoy doing that'll be good
> career-wise? (It's not that I think it's bad to do socializing that's
> good for your career, I just worry about a life where all one's socializing
> is thought of in this way.) Does your husband have to go to?
>
This is the "shite" type of socializing. *giggle* Sure, I could
blow off every function and retard my career by not being visible
and not getting anymore deals. I've been tempted to!
Nah, my husband doesn't go. And I don't mind one way or the
other whether he does. Maybe the difference there is
*tolerance*.
[snip]
>
> That's how I feel about myself, but sometimes people can mistake
> you for what you ain't, and sometimes people change into status-seekers
> after they've hooked up with you. (As happened to the art student).
>
*harp mode*
This is why, I think it's very prudent not to rush into a
commitment, and to understand what it is you're (not *you*,
anybody) to understand what "commitment" means to the other
party. There's a purpose for "engagement" (or whatever else you
want to call it for whatever other union you choose). Yes,
sometimes people change. No, it might be safer to say that
everyone always changes. The trick is making a conscious effort
to change in such a fashion that you don't completely misplace
the affinity that drew you together to begin with.
If my partner suddenly decides that going to cocktail parties is
more important than my distress at having to attend, then I would
say that the REAL issue is that my partner doesn't give a shit
how I feel. This is an entirely different thing!
> (Hey, my grandma owned a bar, too!) I think I'm thinking of
> "social circles" that aren't real heart-to-heart friends, but
> people you think you ought to know. Kinda the adult version of
> the popular kids in Junior High. (In fact, when I was growing up
> these were the parents of the popular kids in Junior High. My
> parents wondered why I didn't socialize with them.)
>
I guess I'm weird. I don't waste my time on non-heart-to-heart
friends. I had a 'best friend'; I knew this girl from when I
was 6 years old. When I was 26, I realized that I didn't LIKE
her. Then I realized that I couldn't remember the last time I
*did* LIKE her. I was just doing stuff with her out of
obligation. What a colossal waste of energy! I mean, I could
have spent that time...um, um, um...posting to newsgroups! ;)
Kit
Kitters
>
Geeze, I didn't have enough sleep. Please allow me to make this
a bit more legible:
> *harp mode*
> This is why, I think it's very prudent not to rush into a
> commitment, and to understand what it is you're (not *you*,
> anybody) [doing, and] to understand what "commitment" means to the other
> party.
Robin Lee Powell
>Jim Roberts <jim...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>> Nordstrom's has good womens' shoes.
>
>Ding. That's two spelling errors in one five-word sentence.
grammar
>You're slipping, old boy.
>
>Try: "Nordstrom has good women's shoes."
HTH. HAND!
-Robin, giggling.
--
http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rlpowell/ || BTW, I'm male. Honest.
"Government is not suggestion nor persuasion, it is force. When you advocate
any government action, you first must believe that violence is the best answer
to the question at hand." -- Laws of the Jungle, by Allen Thornton
astral alice
>
> In article <37CE84DC...@nctimes.net>,
> Kitters <ter...@nctimes.net> wrote:
>
> >> In the example I'm thinking of, it did have to do with consumption --
> >> buying the right clothes, cars, toys (like cell phones) -- but
> >> also trying to get into the good graces of other people like that
> >> by means of cocktail parties and going to the right church (even
> >> when you didn't believe in it.)
I can relate to this. I'm not sure who said it (my news server went
wobbly and I'm missing a whole load of posts), but what you say about
sycophantic behaviour is what it was like at my school (meaning where
I went from age 11 to 18) amongst both the children and the parents.
So much revolved around being in the right social circles. It seemed
crazy to me - most of the people there was basically middle class,
most of the dads had good jobs and played golf, and most of the mums
stayed at home (but didn't do housework, they had people to do that
for them) and went horse riding. Just that whole setup squicked me,
and I was glad my parents weren't superficial enough to care about
being anything other than polite to the parents who behaved like
that.
For whatever reason, I grew up always on the outside of trendy groups,
and now I'd rather have a couple of "misfit" friends, who are people
like me who I really like, than a huge bunch of fake friends with
whom I don't really have anything in common. The whole idea of having
to eg. suck up to your boss so that you can get a membership at the
golf club makes my skin crawl. If I couldn't get to join a golf club
because it required a reference from another member, and I didn't know
another member well enough, I'd join a different golf club with more
relaxed rules. I don't want to be a part of any kind of lifestyle
that requires me to be fake. Slightly closeted, sure, I don't see
why casual acquaintances need to know things about my relationships,
but that's not the same thing at all.
> >I guess I can't relate. I had to buy a cell phone out of
> >necessity between work, school, and having a child in daycare.
> >(My husband sneered at it and said, "I don't want ANYTHING to DO
> >with THAT." Then he promptly borrowed it when his car went on
> >the fritz.)
>
> So did he come around to thinking the cell phone was a necessity
> rather than a luxury? It's this kind of disagreement that I'm
> thinking of, but on a very large "lifestyle choice" scale.
I know mine is a necessity rather than a luxury. I've actually had
emergencies arise where I've needed to get hold of someone quickly,
or have someone get hold of me quickly, and I think that the
advantages far outweigh the costs. Plus, that it's much cheaper to
run than a land line.
I'm trying to think if I've actually had any large lifestyle choice
disagreements. My previous boyfriend was very unhappy when I went
back to university (for a postgrad course) rather than sticking in
the job I got over the summer - but I think this was as a result of
him sticking his head in the sand somewhat - he knew before I took the
job that it was only ever going to be a summer thing to pay off the
debts incurred during my undergrad course. I think he thought I would
change my mind (as if! office work sucks!). We ended up splitting up
for all sorts of other reasons, only vaguely related to money.
I know that following this experience, I could only get involved with
people who could follow my dreams and support my choices. My current
primary fully supports my choice to do a PhD and understands that I
might well want to do postdoctoral research, which means continuing
to live with no money for another few years, but then we have very
compatible outlooks on life. He doesn't care too much about pleasing
anyone other than the people we care about either.
> And sometimes people can be hypocritical, where they call something
> unnecessary, but then they mooch it off of you. (Er, I hope I
> don't resemble that remark when I get friends to help me haul things
> in their cars.)
No, I don't think it is hypocritical if you get friends to help you
shift heavy things or whatever. We're a carfree family, in the same
way that some people here are childfree. We don't own a car and have
no plans to do so, because we believe that cars are fundamentally
bad for the environment. We have good, cheap public transport and we
use it 99% of the time. However, every so often we have something
large that needs moving, or a significant number of people to shift.
If a car's fully loaded, it's nowhere near as bad as a car with a
single occupant, and so it's not hypocritical for us to borrow a
friend with a car every so often.
> >> I think stuff and how much effort you're going to put in to getting
> >> it *is* part of it, but there's also getting yourself into the
> >> right social circles, and self-presentation (I guess that can count
> >> as stuff).
> >
> >Ah, but! Someone with a particular regard for their *status*
> >wouldn't interest me in the least, so it wouldn't cause a
> >conflict. (Let's see if I wind up eating my words on this one)
>
> That's how I feel about myself, but sometimes people can mistake
> you for what you ain't, and sometimes people change into status-seekers
> after they've hooked up with you. (As happened to the art student).
Yes, I read the original post. That must have been a sad situation.
And I'm afraid I've written a large number of words with no answer at
all to the original question. Quite frankly, I can see plenty of ways
to negotiate differences in background, but none at all to negotiate
differences in desire about class-climbing.
alice.
--
* astral alice: bi, poly, goth | http://www.darkwave.org.uk/~alice *
* astra on Nanvaent | telnet://nanvaent.org:3000 *
* --------------------------------------------------------------------- *
* What's the name of the word for things not being the same always? You *
* know... the thing that lets you know time is happening? - The Sandman *
astral alice
>
> I can relate to this. I'm not sure who said it (my news server went
> wobbly and I'm missing a whole load of posts), but what you say about
> sycophantic behaviour is what it was like at my school (meaning where
> I went from age 11 to 18) amongst both the children and the parents.
> So much revolved around being in the right social circles. It seemed
> crazy to me - most of the people there was basically middle class,
> most of the dads had good jobs and played golf, and most of the mums
> stayed at home (but didn't do housework, they had people to do that
> for them) and went horse riding. Just that whole setup squicked me,
> and I was glad my parents weren't superficial enough to care about
> being anything other than polite to the parents who behaved like
> that.
Sorry - just to add to that - my squick was that they played golf and
went horse riding because _it was the thing to do_, not necessarily
because they liked it. I'm sure that maybe a few of them did like it,
but the vast majority were do so purely for appearance reasons ("look
at me, I am in the right place with the right people"). Business
meetings conducted on the golf course, etc.
Just in case that wasn't entirely obvious :)
Robin Lee Powell
>I guess I'm weird. I don't waste my time on non-heart-to-heart
>friends. I had a 'best friend'; I knew this girl from when I
>was 6 years old. When I was 26, I realized that I didn't LIKE
>her. Then I realized that I couldn't remember the last time I
>*did* LIKE her. I was just doing stuff with her out of
>obligation. What a colossal waste of energy!
I surprised myself a little while ago by realizing I feel the same way
about my mother. That was something of a shock.
-Robin
s...@bob.eecs.berkeley.edu
>s...@bob.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Steve Pope) wrote:
>>Jim Roberts <jim...@erols.com> wrote:
>>> Nordstrom's has good womens' shoes.
>>Ding. That's two spelling errors in one five-word sentence.
> ^^^^^^^^
> grammar
>
Well, I would agree exept that Jennie tells us that punctuation
marks are not part of grammar. Therefore, they must be part
of spelling. (How's that for dyadic reasoning.)
Or do apostrophes not count as punctuation marks?
>>Try: "Nordstrom has good women's shoes."
>
>HTH. HAND!
>
>-Robin, giggling.
Steve
Jim Roberts
Kitters wrote:
> heather e blair wrote:
> >
> > So did he come around to thinking the cell phone was a necessity
> > rather than a luxury?
>
> Nah, but it *is* a running joke. *Of course* we don't agree on
> everything, but the difference there, I think, is perspective.
> We don't sweat the small stuff anymore. A cell phone is small
> stuff. ;)
>
It's not, unless you like to run into bridge abutments or kill families of 5.
Pull over.
Let us not be weird.
[...]
jimbat
Jim Roberts
Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> s...@bob.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Steve Pope) wrote:
> >Jim Roberts <jim...@erols.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Nordstrom's has good womens' shoes.
> >
> >Ding. That's two spelling errors in one five-word sentence.
> ^^^^^^^^
> grammar
>
> >You're slipping, old boy.
> >
> >Try: "Nordstrom has good women's shoes."
>
> HTH. HAND!
>
> -Robin, giggling.
Giggle all you want, but I suggest that you stand outside a Nordstom store and
ask the customers if they are going to Nordstrom's, with an implied apostrophe.
They will say yes. And is it Macy or Macy's, Bullock or Bullock's, Sears or
Sears', Filene or Filene's, Prada or Prada's? I have you now. Go corporate, will
you?
As for the placement of the apostrophe in womens', I do fear I did violate my
principles, though this is now an accespted placement for hoi polloi, in which I
grant you honorary status. Women's is what I wish I had typed, but I am
influenced by all the trash I have to read. Yours included.
jimbat
Jim Roberts
s...@bob.eecs.berkeley.edu wrote:
> Robin Lee Powell <rlpo...@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>
> >s...@bob.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Steve Pope) wrote:
>
> >>Jim Roberts <jim...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> >>> Nordstrom's has good womens' shoes.
>
> >>Ding. That's two spelling errors in one five-word sentence.
> > ^^^^^^^^
> > grammar
> >
>
> Well, I would agree exept that Jennie tells us that punctuation
> marks are not part of grammar. Therefore, they must be part
> of spelling. (How's that for dyadic reasoning.)
>
> Or do apostrophes not count as punctuation marks?
>
[...]
Of course apostrophes count as punctuation, and punctuation is part of
grammar. What else would they be? Jennie is wrong, wrong, and wrong.
jimbat
John C. Kirk
> Hey I have some books! My furniture is crap. I buy cheap food
> and try to make fun stuff out of it, reserving trendy restaurants
> for special occasions. But oops, I'm no grad student. I guess I
> can't be in the club.
I'm in a similar situation, in that I hang around with a student SF
society, even though I'm not at that (or any other) university. I think
that you can follow a [grad] student lifestyle without actually being a
student - it's a question of your priorities. Conversely, you can do a
job that requires you to wear a suit, without actually being part of
the suit culture.
John
--
John C. Kirk, B.Sc. (Hons) (Dunelm), AMIAP, MCP
Jo...@golgotha.demon.co.uk
http://www.golgotha.demon.co.uk/
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Stef Maruch
>>necessity between work, school, and having a child in daycare.
>>(My husband sneered at it and said, "I don't want ANYTHING to DO
>>with THAT." Then he promptly borrowed it when his car went on
>>the fritz.)
>So did he come around to thinking the cell phone was a necessity
>rather than a luxury? It's this kind of disagreement that I'm
>thinking of, but on a very large "lifestyle choice" scale.
I dunno. I don't think a cell phone is a necessity in any basic sense
(otherwise the human race couldn't've survived a million years without
them) but they certainly can be useful. I don't think owning a
particular item brands you as a social climber. It's an attitude thing.
>>Ah, but! Someone with a particular regard for their *status*
>>wouldn't interest me in the least, so it wouldn't cause a
>>conflict. (Let's see if I wind up eating my words on this one)
>
>That's how I feel about myself, but sometimes people can mistake
>you for what you ain't, and sometimes people change into status-seekers
>after they've hooked up with you. (As happened to the art student).
People all change; the best you can do if you're with someone you care
about is try to agree to change in compatible directions.
--
Stef ** rational/scientific/philosophical/mystical/magical/kitty **
** st...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.bayarea.net/~stef **
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
It was unintelligible at any speed we played it. -- U.S. Government
report investigating possible bad words in "Louie Louie"
Stef Maruch
>If my partner suddenly decides that going to cocktail parties is
>more important than my distress at having to attend, then I would
>say that the REAL issue is that my partner doesn't give a shit
>how I feel. This is an entirely different thing!
What's wrong with your partner's going to cocktail parties while you do
something else? That is one of the ways my primary and I worked out our
different socializing styles.
--
Stef ** rational/scientific/philosophical/mystical/magical/kitty **
** st...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.bayarea.net/~stef **
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Philosophy sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from bullshit.
-- Greg Berge
Rob
>Well, I would agree exept that Jennie tells us that punctuation
>marks are not part of grammar. Therefore, they must be part
>of spelling. (How's that for dyadic reasoning.)
The possessive apostrophe in "Nordstrom's" and "women's" stands for the
letter "e", I think, as the "'s" is a remnant of the old strong
masculine/strong neuter genitive singular "-es" of Old English. Since it
stands for a letter, it's a spelling issue, I think.
Incidentally, the strong feminine genitive singular ending was "-e"; it
survives as the "i" in "handiwork".
umar
John Clark
heather e blair schrieb:
>That sounds smart! Are you both enjoying belly dancing? (I can't
> dance at all because I can't figure out left and right fast enough
> to move in time to music.)
Being a 'dance challenged' person, I can identify with this. A few
nights ago a 'dance fanatic' thrust me out on to the dancefloor
infront of some gyrating entity, and with about 10 beats I
was back at my seat, and the entity had grabbed someone
from the 'audience' to replace me... It is unfortunate that often
'dance' is some sort of prelude to ludi...
Jim Roberts
Rob wrote:
Good work, my boy. Now fill that sack with cotton like I tol' you. I'm
saving this one.
jimbat
Kitters
>
>
> I'm in a similar situation, in that I hang around with a student SF
> society, even though I'm not at that (or any other) university. I think
> that you can follow a [grad] student lifestyle without actually being a
> student - it's a question of your priorities. Conversely, you can do a
> job that requires you to wear a suit, without actually being part of
> the suit culture.
>
I think you can even do both.
Kit
Kitters
> >friends. I had a 'best friend'; I knew this girl from when I
> >was 6 years old. When I was 26, I realized that I didn't LIKE
> >her. Then I realized that I couldn't remember the last time I
> >*did* LIKE her. I was just doing stuff with her out of
> >obligation. What a colossal waste of energy!
>
> I surprised myself a little while ago by realizing I feel the same way
> about my mother. That was something of a shock.
>
Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your perspective),
you can pick out your friends, but not your mother.
(Biologically, that is!)
Kit
Kitters
>
> Kitters wrote:
> >
> > Nah, but it *is* a running joke. *Of course* we don't agree on
> > everything, but the difference there, I think, is perspective.
> > We don't sweat the small stuff anymore. A cell phone is small
> > stuff. ;)
> >
>
> It's not, unless you like to run into bridge abutments or kill families of 5.
> Pull over.
>
> Let us not be weird.
>
*Cell* phone, not car phone. I'm not coordinated enough to dial
the damn thing while driving.
Kit
Kitters
>
> Kitters <ter...@nctimes.net> wrote:
>
> >If my partner suddenly decides that going to cocktail parties is
> >more important than my distress at having to attend, then I would
> >say that the REAL issue is that my partner doesn't give a shit
> >how I feel. This is an entirely different thing!
>
> What's wrong with your partner's going to cocktail parties while you do
> something else? That is one of the ways my primary and I worked out our
> different socializing styles.
>
Here's the part of my post that you snipped:
"Nah, my husband doesn't go. And I don't mind one way or the
other whether he does. Maybe the difference there is
*tolerance*."
Did you miss that?
Which is to say, that nothing is wrong with one going and the
other not. The bit you responded to alluded, albeit
hypothetically, that if I felt that if I didn't want to go, and
my partner insisted upon attendance, thereby placing all
importance on attending the events rather than my feelings in the
matter, then the problem is entirely *separate* from "cocktail
parties." (What a rotten run on sentence. I hope I didn't
confuse the matter even further.)
The plural of "parties", I felt, implied that it would be a
recurring type of social event. I don't think the odd christmas
party or barbeque or whatever fits into this, at least not for
me. If there's something my husband really wants me to go to - I
go, for him, even if I'm less than interested. If there's
something he wants me to do *routinely* that I really don't
enjoy, he goes without me. It's not a big deal. It WOULD be a
big deal if he *insisted* that I go, *consistently*, regardless
of whether I wanted to. The problem there is not the event, but
a lack of tolerance and/or respect for my wishes. This is what I
thought heather was referring to in the original post, in terms
of whether social climbing could destroy a relationship,
specifically, where she later said this:
"In the example I'm thinking of, it did have to do with
consumption -- buying the right clothes, cars, toys (like cell
phones) -- but also trying to get into the good graces of other
people like that by means of cocktail parties and going to the
right church (even when you didn't believe in it.)"
I was trying to say that social climbing may not be the real
factor, but a lack of respect for your partner *could be*.
Did that clarify at all?
Kit
Some Guy on a Bike
wrote:
> Robin Lee Powell wrote:
>> Kitters <ter...@nctimes.net> wrote:
True. Because then, if you're like me, you're stuck without a mother
worth a damn, instead of being able to pick a new one.
Jim Roberts
Some Guy on a Bike wrote:
> On Sat, 04 Sep 1999 07:46:25 -0700, Kitters <ter...@nctimes.net>
> wrote:
>
> > Robin Lee Powell wrote:
>
> >> Kitters <ter...@nctimes.net> wrote:
>
> >>> I guess I'm weird. I don't waste my time on non-heart-to-heart
> >>> friends. I had a 'best friend'; I knew this girl from when I
> >>> was 6 years old. When I was 26, I realized that I didn't LIKE
> >>> her. Then I realized that I couldn't remember the last time I
> >>> *did* LIKE her. I was just doing stuff with her out of
> >>> obligation. What a colossal waste of energy!
>
> >> I surprised myself a little while ago by realizing I feel the same way
> >> about my mother. That was something of a shock.
>
> > Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your perspective),
> > you can pick out your friends, but not your mother.
> > (Biologically, that is!)
>
> True. Because then, if you're like me, you're stuck without a mother
> worth a damn, instead of being able to pick a new one.
Can we start over, somewhere.you.cant.reach, fella?
jimbat
Metal Fem
<h4...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> Do any of y'all have thoughts about how partners can negotiate
> either differences in social class background, or differences
> in desire about class-climbing? Is it different when there
> is more than two primary partners? Is it easier/harder to
> have secondary partners of different social classes?
My r/ships over the years have all been with people from different
social and/or cultural backgrounds to me. The one exception was a girl
I went to school with, and that was a brief liaison. I'd like to think
this is because I like my partners to be challenging and different from
me, I suspect it's more primal than that tho' <grin>
But my sweeties have also usually gone through the same leftie/queer
politics and subculture formative stuff as I so our values tend to be
shared to a point where we can enjoy our difference and not get
resentful and pissed off about it. And in fact having a variety of
people in a r/ship who have the skills to work various societal systems
(bureaucracy, mechanical trades, retail,"the establishment" etc) is a
real asset to the "family".
In an early r/ship I did end up as non-con whipping girl for my
partner's issues about poverty and neglect as a child, and that was a
good lesson on who to avoid for future r/ships. I'm don't allow myself
to be put the role of "evil middle-class bitch" for anyone's issues any
more. It got to the stage where I felt I should wear a sign "I am not
your deserting rich bastard father who left you and your mother in
abject poverty, especially as I have half as much money as you". Too
long a sentence for a sign I suppose :)
These days my sweeties and I agree that making life more comfortable is
fine and desirable. IME the whole hair shirt mentality I've seen about
class mostly manifests in guilty middle class lefties who haven't dug
below initial reactions of how best to deal with class difference. Or
in people who end up in r/ships like that of my ex and I. Continuing
the punishment doesn't fix anything.
My working class partners have no problems at all about buying a mobile
phone or getting a new computer, in fact they enjoy it and occasionally
take the piss out of themselves "climbing the ladder" instead of
earnestly talking it down the class ladder like my leftie middle class
friends & I :)
What my partners and I do agree on is that measuring worth in money,
careers and class position/background is fucked up. If there wasn't
agreement about that I think negotiation about financial and social
priorities would be damn near impossible.
Mf
Bernadette Bosky
>s...@bob.eecs.berkeley.edu writes:
>
>The possessive apostrophe in "Nordstrom's" and "women's" stands for the
>letter "e", I think, as the "'s" is a remnant of the old strong
>masculine/strong neuter genitive singular "-es" of Old English. Since it
>stands for a letter, it's a spelling issue, I think.
>
English usage. I've long thought it was associated with the 17th century
usage of "his" to show possessive, as in *Sir Thomas Overbury, His Wife*,
a book of essays. Does anyone in the history of English really know?
Bernadette Bosky
--
"Christian has to die, of course.... What sort of climax can the play
have if the war ends with Cyrano, Christian, and Roxane all still alive?
What sort of relationship would develop then between these three?"
astral alice
He does :)
Aahz Maruch
>Aahz Maruch <aa...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>>(For example, I like folk/contra dancing and my partner likes African
>>dancing, but neither of us likes the dancing the other does. Solution
>>is not to each go to something we dislike half the time, but to try
>>belly dancing.)
>
>That sounds smart! Are you both enjoying belly dancing? (I can't
>dance at all because I can't figure out left and right fast enough
>to move in time to music.)
Well, um, er, this is actually a theoretical solution until we
accumulate enough round tuits. But I was at a belly dance workshop at
NASFiC last weekend, so I'm pretty sure I'd enjoy it, and it's the kind
of thing my primary is likely to enjoy.
--
--- Aahz (@netcom.com)
Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het <*> http://www.rahul.net/aahz/
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 (if you want to know, do some research)
John Clark
Bernadette Bosky schrieb:
> But I don't think the possessive apostrophe goes back to Old
> English usage. I've long thought it was associated with the 17th century
> usage of "his" to show possessive, as in *Sir Thomas Overbury, His Wife*,
> a book of essays. Does anyone in the history of English really know?
German also uses 's' as a genitive ending. I also recall anglo-saxon having
a genitive 'es', so I'd go along with the use of the apostrophe signifying the
deleted, and almost never heard 'e'. I think the only place it is heard would
be in for example, Jesus' town of birth was Nazarith... and of course the
apostrophe in this case deletes the both 'e' and the 's'.
Jim Roberts
John Clark wrote:
> Bernadette Bosky schrieb:
>
> > But I don't think the possessive apostrophe goes back to Old
> > English usage. I've long thought it was associated with the 17th century
> > usage of "his" to show possessive, as in *Sir Thomas Overbury, His Wife*,
> > a book of essays. Does anyone in the history of English really know?
>
> German also uses 's' as a genitive ending. I also recall anglo-saxon having
> a genitive 'es', so I'd go along with the use of the apostrophe signifying the
> deleted, and almost never heard 'e'. I think the only place it is heard would
> be in for example, Jesus' town of birth was Nazarith...
Nazareth. And you are talking about spelling. Shame.
> and of course the
> apostrophe in this case deletes the both 'e' and the 's'.
Get deleted yourself.
jimbat
John Clark
Jim Roberts schrieb:
> John Clark wrote:
>
> > German also uses 's' as a genitive ending. I also recall anglo-saxon having
> > a genitive 'es', so I'd go along with the use of the apostrophe signifying the
> > deleted, and almost never heard 'e'. I think the only place it is heard would
> > be in for example, Jesus' town of birth was Nazarith...
>
> Nazareth. And you are talking about spelling. Shame.
No, I was speaking of gramatical elements and their representation
in written form. I would only discuss spelling in regard to a phonetic
representation of a given spoken language. In addition, I would always
account for variations in spelling given a dialect of the writer, otherwise
one may as well use ideographs if the written form does not to match
the phonetic usage of the speaker.
But as usual you do illustrate that if one can correct the spelling
then one understands the message, and the correction is superfluous,
unless one is only interested in demonstrating their abilities in
the school marmish sense.
Jim Roberts
John Clark wrote:
> Jim Roberts schrieb:
>
> > John Clark wrote:
> >
> > > German also uses 's' as a genitive ending. I also recall anglo-saxon having
> > > a genitive 'es', so I'd go along with the use of the apostrophe signifying the
> > > deleted, and almost never heard 'e'. I think the only place it is heard would
> > > be in for example, Jesus' town of birth was Nazarith...
> >
> > Nazareth. And you are talking about spelling. Shame.
>
> No, I was speaking of gramatical elements and their representation
> in written form. I would only discuss spelling in regard to a phonetic
> representation of a given spoken language. In addition, I would always
> account for variations in spelling given a dialect of the writer, otherwise
> one may as well use ideographs if the written form does not to match
> the phonetic usage of the speaker.
>
A howl. You can back and fill all you want, but it was spelling. If you don't think
apostrophes are about spelling, take a tour of your nearest redneck neighborhood, mine
is Hamden, and read.
But I do admire the care with which you have crafted this misguided message. Were I
your PhD advisor, which thankfully I'm not, I'm not sure what I would do. I might
send you packing. The last sentence you wrote would certainly have given me grief.
>
> But as usual you do illustrate that if one can correct the spelling
> then one understands the message, and the correction is superfluous,
> unless one is only interested in demonstrating their abilities in
> the school marmish sense.
No the correction is not, as any school marm can tell you. Stop being a schoolboy and
grow up and spell correctly. Spelling correctly is part of being a grownup of normal
intelligence. Oops wrong program. You spelled correctly, but were just confused.
jimbat
Ailsa N.T. Murphy
> Absolutely. I'm sick of having to always be terrified about whether
> I'll make it to the next payday. At the same time, I couldn't care
> less if I'm wealthy, and can't understand those who make MORE money
> just for the sake of making it. I'd like to be able to indulge my
> finely-tuned aesthetic sense; I'd like to be able to buy things I WANT
> and not have to worry about whether I'll make the bills next month or
> not. But more realistically, I'd like to be able to pay the bills
> comfortably, have something socked away for a rainy day, and be able
> to indulge myself from time to time so I can feel like *I* have some
> treats in life to look forward to.
Here we have a man after my own heart, except I also want to own my own
home so I can stop throwing a huge chunk of my salary at landlords.
The scary thing is, I think _enough_ money might be one of those things
like the horizon.
-Ailsa
--
One knows his subjects cold but can't heat up Ailsa N.T. Murphy
an audience. The other promises the global an...@world.std.com
vision thing as soon as he gets his geography Contents under pressure
down. -Maureen Dowd Some settling may occur
Ailsa N.T. Murphy
> So I suppose this could happen to me, but I think I'm somewhat
> set in my ways, and where I sit in the social class and "stuff"
> scheme of things, is fairly apparent. But then, maybe not...
The biggest problem in class differences to me isn't "How much stuff do
we buy?" but "How do we raise the kids?" If you have one partner who
believes that the yuppie tendency to make kids take after school lessons
in everything is just awful and that summers are for kicking back and
enjoying life, and another who thinks that summers are for educational
enrichment and schools are only an adjunct to learning and parents
should be setting curricula for the kids themselves, things can get
ugly.
And then there's questions about how to discupline kids, how much they
should be left alone, how much freedom of the outdoors they should have,
what sort of clothes they should have, how much household responsibility
they shoudl have, how much TV is permissable, how many activities that
cost how much they should be in, hwo much they should be encouraged to
develop extracurricular activites if they aren't already so
inclined.... And that's not even starting with questions of how many
TVs and phones the family should have and whether TVs in bedrooms are a
good thing or a modern perversion of all that is good and right in the
world.
Aahz Maruch
Ailsa N.T. Murphy <an...@world.std.com> wrote:
>
>The biggest problem in class differences to me isn't "How much stuff do
>we buy?" but "How do we raise the kids?" If you have one partner who
>believes that the yuppie tendency to make kids take after school lessons
>in everything is just awful and that summers are for kicking back and
>enjoying life, and another who thinks that summers are for educational
>enrichment and schools are only an adjunct to learning and parents
>should be setting curricula for the kids themselves, things can get
>ugly.
>
>And then there's questions about how to discupline kids, how much they
>should be left alone, how much freedom of the outdoors they should have,
>what sort of clothes they should have, how much household responsibility
>they shoudl have, how much TV is permissable, how many activities that
>cost how much they should be in, hwo much they should be encouraged to
>develop extracurricular activites if they aren't already so
>inclined.... And that's not even starting with questions of how many
>TVs and phones the family should have and whether TVs in bedrooms are a
>good thing or a modern perversion of all that is good and right in the
>world.
I have not observed that there is a strong correlation between "class"
and any one of these issues. These are all important issues, yes,
particularly taken in the aggregate, but I haven't found any strong
predeterminers for a specific person's views on these issues.
In fact, my primary and I agreeing on most of these issues (or close
enough that compromise would be fairly easy) was one of the main reasons
why we at one point were planning to have kids.
astral alice
>
> In article <37D3D8...@world.std.com>,
> Ailsa N.T. Murphy <an...@world.std.com> wrote:
> >
> >The biggest problem in class differences to me isn't "How much stuff do
> >we buy?" but "How do we raise the kids?"
>
> I have not observed that there is a strong correlation between "class"
> and any one of these issues. These are all important issues, yes,
> particularly taken in the aggregate, but I haven't found any strong
> predeterminers for a specific person's views on these issues.
The only time that I can see class coming into it would be in the case
of choosing a school or what the kid should do in the holidays, and even
then it wouldn't be so much class as political affiliation. For example,
in the UK you get various types of school - comprehensive schools, which
are non-selective and non-fee-paying, grammar schools, which are
selective and (usually) non-fee-paying, and assorted types of private
school which are always fee-paying and usually selective. Someone of a
working-class background who was a diehard socialist would be anti-
fee-paying schools and anti-selective schools. Where this shows up more
as a political thing than a class thing is that other parents of
working-class backgrounds might want to send their kids to a selective
school and possibly also a fee-paying school, to let their kids have a
chance that they themselves didn't have.
Stef Maruch
>The biggest problem in class differences to me isn't "How much stuff
>do we buy?" but "How do we raise the kids?" If you have one partner
>who believes that the yuppie tendency to make kids take after school
>lessons in everything is just awful and that summers are for kicking
>back and enjoying life, and another who thinks that summers are for
>educational enrichment and schools are only an adjunct to learning and
>parents should be setting curricula for the kids themselves, things can
>get ugly.
Have you run into this particular conflict in a class-based context? It
didn't occur to me that it was class-based.
--
Stef ** rational/scientific/philosophical/mystical/magical/kitty **
** st...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.bayarea.net/~stef **
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Check one:
[ ] BANG
[ ] whimper
-- Bhob Stewart and T. S. Eliot, _The Realist_, 1962
Stef Maruch
>The scary thing is, I think _enough_ money might be one of those things
>like the horizon.
It's not. That is, unless you buy too many home improvement magazines.
--
Stef ** rational/scientific/philosophical/mystical/magical/kitty **
** st...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.bayarea.net/~stef **
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Freedom is what you do with what's been done to you. -- Sartre
Vicki Rosenzweig
wrote:
>Some Guy on a Bike wrote:
>
>> Absolutely. I'm sick of having to always be terrified about whether
>> I'll make it to the next payday. At the same time, I couldn't care
>> less if I'm wealthy, and can't understand those who make MORE money
>> just for the sake of making it. I'd like to be able to indulge my
>> finely-tuned aesthetic sense; I'd like to be able to buy things I WANT
>> and not have to worry about whether I'll make the bills next month or
>> not. But more realistically, I'd like to be able to pay the bills
>> comfortably, have something socked away for a rainy day, and be able
>> to indulge myself from time to time so I can feel like *I* have some
>> treats in life to look forward to.
>
>Here we have a man after my own heart, except I also want to own my own
>home so I can stop throwing a huge chunk of my salary at landlords.
>
>The scary thing is, I think _enough_ money might be one of those things
>like the horizon.
>
For some people, it seems to be. For others, not.
One useful point I saw somewhere (I think on some online
financial calculator) is that it's easy for a lot of people
to be driven by their neighbor's expectations, or what they
think their neighbors expect. That is, they'll buy a bigger
home in a fancier neighborhood, for whatever reason (good
schools, wanting that swimming pool, liking the location,
concern with the resale value, whatever). Then they notice
that their neighbors all have new, fancy cars, and they're
suddenly not satisfied with their five-year-old Volvo even
though it's in good shape and they're comfortable driving
it. They start thinking about sending their kids to private
school, not because it's necessarily better than the local
public school, but because the kids next door are in private
school. They've always liked skiing, but suddenly driving
up to Vermont isn't sufficient, they want to fly to Colorado
or Switzerland. And so on.
If you can avoid that--that is, if you have a solid idea of
what you need, what you want, what you'd like if it's not
going to cause trouble elsewhere, and what you don't need or
really want--you're more likely to be able to have enough
money. Granted, there are unforeseen expenses--illness is an
obvious one--but there's a difference between needing more
money because you get sick or you suddenly have twins to
raise and needing more money because you charged an expensive
vacation and need to pay off those credit cards.
--
Vicki Rosenzweig v...@interport.net
http://www.users.interport.net/~vr
For "no doubt" read "I think." -- Patrick Nielsen Hayden
Some Guy on a Bike
<an...@world.std.com> wrote:
> If you have one partner who
> believes that the yuppie tendency to make kids take after school lessons
> in everything is just awful and that summers are for kicking back and
> enjoying life, and another who thinks that summers are for educational
> enrichment and schools are only an adjunct to learning and parents
> should be setting curricula for the kids themselves, things can get
> ugly.
Why? A summer of kicking back, without all those silly yuppie
activities, can be very educational in many ways. Especially things
you won't get in school.
I don't see how they're at all exclusive, myself. I:{>
Some Guy on a Bike
<an...@world.std.com> wrote:
> Some Guy on a Bike wrote:
>> Absolutely. I'm sick of having to always be terrified about whether
>> I'll make it to the next payday. At the same time, I couldn't care
>> less if I'm wealthy, and can't understand those who make MORE money
>> just for the sake of making it. I'd like to be able to indulge my
>> finely-tuned aesthetic sense; I'd like to be able to buy things I WANT
>> and not have to worry about whether I'll make the bills next month or
>> not. But more realistically, I'd like to be able to pay the bills
>> comfortably, have something socked away for a rainy day, and be able
>> to indulge myself from time to time so I can feel like *I* have some
>> treats in life to look forward to.
> Here we have a man after my own heart, except I also want to own my own
> home so I can stop throwing a huge chunk of my salary at landlords.
I have no aversion to that. However, I'm never going to qualify for a
mortgage as long as I live. So someone else will have to cover that
aspect of things.
> The scary thing is, I think _enough_ money might be one of those things
> like the horizon.
I know the feeling. I make $26,400 a year. I take home $6k. Anyone
have any spare food?
bearpaw
>
>Ailsa N.T. Murphy <an...@world.std.com> wrote:
>>The scary thing is, I think _enough_ money might be one of those things
>>like the horizon.
>
Don't. Even. Start.
Bearpaw,
who discovered over the weekend that the kitchen cabinets in the new
place were actually a couple of shades lighter than they appeared to
be, and who kept hallucinating -- from the cleaning fumes, no doubt
-- that we might be able to afford to just replace them all
--
~~~~~~~~~~~ bea...@aq.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~
The United States trails only Russia in the share of its citizens
behind bars. The total U.S. incarceration rate ... is six to 10 times
higher than most industrial nations. -- The Sentencing Project
heather e blair
Some Guy on a Bike <som...@somewhere.u.cant.reach> wrote:
>> Does this mean you're searching for a comfortable middle that isn't
>> poor and isn't grasping?
>
>Absolutely. I'm sick of having to always be terrified about whether
>I'll make it to the next payday. At the same time, I couldn't care
>less if I'm wealthy, and can't understand those who make MORE money
>just for the sake of making it. I'd like to be able to indulge my
>finely-tuned aesthetic sense; I'd like to be able to buy things I WANT
>and not have to worry about whether I'll make the bills next month or
>not. But more realistically, I'd like to be able to pay the bills
>comfortably, have something socked away for a rainy day, and be able
>to indulge myself from time to time so I can feel like *I* have some
>treats in life to look forward to.
Yeah, just having enough is important. Sometimes times are hard and
a person doesn't have much choice as to where they are going to
land in economic/social class. Good luck with your job!
--
"Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate things." -- Vice President
Dan Quayle, 11/30/88
heather e blair
Bernadette Bosky <b...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <7qq6sv$esi$1...@umar.ne.mediaone.net>, Rob <um...@world.std.com> wrote:
>>s...@bob.eecs.berkeley.edu writes:
>>
>>The possessive apostrophe in "Nordstrom's" and "women's" stands for the
>>letter "e", I think, as the "'s" is a remnant of the old strong
>>masculine/strong neuter genitive singular "-es" of Old English. Since it
>>stands for a letter, it's a spelling issue, I think.
>>
>English usage. I've long thought it was associated with the 17th century
>usage of "his" to show possessive, as in *Sir Thomas Overbury, His Wife*,
>a book of essays. Does anyone in the history of English really know?
>
I don't really know, but I'll put in my hearsay. My ex claims that
this 17th century use was based on a false etymology -- they thought
that the 's possessive was from "his", but it really isn't. So they
started using it, but it hadn't been seen before (or since).
(I'm not sure what the evidence of my ex is.)
bearpaw
>>The scary thing is, I think _enough_ money might be one of those things
>>like the horizon.
>
>
>One useful point I saw somewhere (I think on some online
>financial calculator) is that it's easy for a lot of people
>to be driven by their neighbor's expectations, or what they
>think their neighbors expect.
I heard a good sentiment along these lines a while back:
"Why are you trying so hard to keep up with the Joneses when you
don't even like where they're going?"
Bearpaw
--
~~~~~~~~~~~ bea...@aq.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Advertising is the rattling of a stick inside a swill bucket."
- George Orwell
heather e blair
astral alice <al...@darkwave.org.uk> wrote:
>heather e blair wrote:
>> >> In the example I'm thinking of, it did have to do with consumption --
>> >> buying the right clothes, cars, toys (like cell phones) -- but
>> >> also trying to get into the good graces of other people like that
>> >> by means of cocktail parties and going to the right church (even
>> >> when you didn't believe in it.)
>
>I can relate to this. I'm not sure who said it (my news server went
>wobbly and I'm missing a whole load of posts), but what you say about
>sycophantic behaviour is what it was like at my school (meaning where
>I went from age 11 to 18) amongst both the children and the parents.
>So much revolved around being in the right social circles. It seemed
>crazy to me - most of the people there was basically middle class,
>most of the dads had good jobs and played golf, and most of the mums
>stayed at home (but didn't do housework, they had people to do that
>for them) and went horse riding. Just that whole setup squicked me,
>and I was glad my parents weren't superficial enough to care about
>being anything other than polite to the parents who behaved like
>that.
That's exactly what I was thinking of -- playing golf or riding horses,
not because you really enjoy it, but because it's a classy thing
to do.
>I know that following this experience, I could only get involved with
>people who could follow my dreams and support my choices. My current
>primary fully supports my choice to do a PhD and understands that I
>might well want to do postdoctoral research, which means continuing
>to live with no money for another few years, but then we have very
>compatible outlooks on life. He doesn't care too much about pleasing
>anyone other than the people we care about either.
That sounds good. It's important to have a supportive partner.
heather e blair
Ailsa N.T. Murphy <an...@world.std.com> wrote:
>The biggest problem in class differences to me isn't "How much stuff do
>we buy?" but "How do we raise the kids?" If you have one partner who
>believes that the yuppie tendency to make kids take after school lessons
>in everything is just awful and that summers are for kicking back and
>enjoying life, and another who thinks that summers are for educational
>enrichment and schools are only an adjunct to learning and parents
>should be setting curricula for the kids themselves, things can get
>ugly.
Yeah, that could be contentious. Sometimes I think upper middle
class children are like the young women in the Jane Austen novels --
they're supposed to have "accomplishments". The upper middle
class child is supposed to have a Sport and a Musical Instrument
(and probably other accomplishments, too) just like the young
women in the novels were supposed to play the piano, sing, paint,
dance and do needle work.
I guess is parents are arguing, they could ask the child him/herself
about what he/she wants to do. Kids often want to participate in
organized sports or music lessons, but often they are feeling
pushed and overburdened.
Noel Lynne Figart
news:FHp0K...@midway.uchicago.edu...
> Yeah, that could be contentious. Sometimes I think upper middle
> class children are like the young women in the Jane Austen novels --
> they're supposed to have "accomplishments". The upper middle
> class child is supposed to have a Sport and a Musical Instrument
> (and probably other accomplishments, too) just like the young
> women in the novels were supposed to play the piano, sing, paint,
> dance and do needle work.
My father's version of this was: "A well brought up young lady should be
able to waltz, change the oil in her car, cook a healthy meal, set up a line
of logic to point out to her boss that the company is eager to give her a
raise, know better than to wear black bobby pins in blond hair, be able to
break the arm or neck of someone who physically endangers her, understand
how to budget her money, and have SOMETHING creative in her life that she
loves."
>
> I guess is parents are arguing, they could ask the child him/herself
> about what he/she wants to do. Kids often want to participate in
> organized sports or music lessons, but often they are feeling
> pushed and overburdened.
My parents liked me to be involved in one or two things during the year.
Summers I usually spent swimming, or as I got older, writing.
--
__________________________________________
Noel, Axe of the BABs, Mum to He Who Groks Sand,
Goshness of Garb Commandments, and She Who
Truly Groks Coffee.
AIM NoelFigart
ICQ 3478905
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/6419
Rules for Evil Overlords #134
If I am escaping in a large truck and the hero
is pursuing me in a small Italian sports car,
I will not wait for the hero to pull up alongside
of me and try to force him off the road as he
attempts to climb aboard. Instead I will
slam on the brakes when he's directly behind
me. (A rudimentary knowledge of physics
can prove quite useful.)
spacey
> If you can avoid that [keeping up with the your new, richer neighbors once you > buy the new, richer house]
oh, that's easy - i want a decent sized house (and no comments on my
castle plans robin!), but i also want to live in the middle of nowhere,
with no neighbors, and be completely self sufficient. <g> hermitism
acquires an amazing attractiveness once you've been in school for a
while.
spacey
--
i value my privacy; please ask permission before sending personal email.
-----
'two's company, six plus the referee is a crowd 8).' - averti
piranha
>>>like the horizon.
>>
i concur. at least if one defines "enough" as "what do i
really need to be reasonably comfortable". if one defines
it as "what do i want" then there seems no limit to it. :-)
>That is, unless you buy too many home improvement magazines.
>
>Don't. Even. Start.
*heh*.
the current contender for "the boat" isn't even disguised
as a "fixer-upper". it is pretty much a goner, except for
the hull. but since that's all we really need, it's loo-
king mighty attractive compared to all the much better kept
boats we've been looking at.
i really love taking something decrepit and making it into
something functional and beautiful. and it's usually been
cheaper for me than to buy something functional and beauti-
ful new.
>Bearpaw,
>who discovered over the weekend that the kitchen cabinets in the new
>place were actually a couple of shades lighter than they appeared to
>be, and who kept hallucinating -- from the cleaning fumes, no doubt
>-- that we might be able to afford to just replace them all
let me highly recommend melamine paint. much cheaper than
replacing cabinets. makes a huge difference in atmosphere
to paint over that dark wood-stain from the fifties. it's
a bit trickier than regular paint, but a handy amateur can
do it. and it makes for a much nicer kitchen while you're
saving up to eventually replace those butt-ugly cabinets.
(actually i have no idea whether your cabinets are butt-
ugly and from the fifties, i was hallucinating back about
the kitchen we fixed up before selling the house.)
-piranha
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Robin Lee Powell
>heather e blair <h4...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
>news:FHp0K...@midway.uchicago.edu...
>
>> Yeah, that could be contentious. Sometimes I think upper middle
>> class children are like the young women in the Jane Austen novels --
>> they're supposed to have "accomplishments". The upper middle
>> class child is supposed to have a Sport and a Musical Instrument
>> (and probably other accomplishments, too) just like the young
>> women in the novels were supposed to play the piano, sing, paint,
>> dance and do needle work.
>
>
>My father's version of this was: "A well brought up young lady should be
>able to waltz, change the oil in her car, cook a healthy meal, set up a line
>of logic to point out to her boss that the company is eager to give her a
>raise, know better than to wear black bobby pins in blond hair, be able to
>break the arm or neck of someone who physically endangers her, understand
>how to budget her money, and have SOMETHING creative in her life that she
>loves."
So should a well-brought-up man, though.
-Robin, who wears brown bobby pins in brown hair to hold back his bangs.
--
http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rlpowell/ || BTW, I'm male. Honest.
"Government is not suggestion nor persuasion, it is force. When you advocate
any government action, you first must believe that violence is the best answer
to the question at hand." -- Laws of the Jungle, by Allen Thornton
Robin Lee Powell
>Vicki Rosenzweig wrote:
>> If you can avoid that [keeping up with the your new, richer neighbors
>once you > buy the new, richer house]
>
>oh, that's easy - i want a decent sized house (and no comments on my
>castle plans robin!),
Of course not! I had no intentions on your plans to build a huge,
self-sufficient castle with no dungeon. Why would I mention how you
want the pool to have a branch flowing under the wall, so there was both
an indoor and outdoor portion? That would just be a silly thing for me
to comment on.
-Robin "Zathrus... does not remember. But if he does, he is sure to
tell you." Powell
Noel Lynne Figart
news:7r3fp5$nus$3...@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca...
> "Noel Lynne Figart" <noel...@erols.com> wrote:
> >
> >My father's version of this was: "A well brought up young lady should be
> >able to waltz, change the oil in her car, cook a healthy meal, set up a
line
> >of logic to point out to her boss that the company is eager to give her a
> >raise, know better than to wear black bobby pins in blond hair, be able
to
> >break the arm or neck of someone who physically endangers her, understand
> >how to budget her money, and have SOMETHING creative in her life that she
> >loves."
>
> So should a well-brought-up man, though.
True enough. My brother is a better cook than I am. However, I am far*
more talented in general. (Don't mind me, folks, my brother and I have had
a healthy sense of competitiveness that occasionally bordered on unhealthy
when we were younger. These days, I'm a geek and he's an entrepreneur. It
works out because we tend to throw each other business).
meledy
>>Vicki Rosenzweig wrote:
>>> If you can avoid that [keeping up with the your new, richer neighbors
>>once you > buy the new, richer house]
>spacey <spa...@tamu.edu> wrote:
>>oh, that's easy - i want a decent sized house (and no comments on my
>>castle plans robin!),
On 7 Sep 1999 16:52:33 GMT, rlpo...@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Robin
Lee Powell) wrote:
>Of course not! I had no intentions on your plans to build a huge,
>self-sufficient castle with no dungeon. Why would I mention how you
>want the pool to have a branch flowing under the wall, so there was both
>an indoor and outdoor portion? That would just be a silly thing for me
>to comment on.
If it makes you feel any better (person to whom the castle plans
belong), my best friend and I have written out - in great and
frightening detail - our plans for the castle we're going to build in
the scottish highlands when several million dollars come swooping down
out of the sky carried, like an infant, by a stork. We have about a 6
page description of the library, and equally involved description of
the kitchen, information on the bagpiper we're going to station on the
roof whenever there's a thunderstorm... and vague details about
everything else. At least we know what's important in our unreachable
fantasies :)
Meledy
Stef Maruch
> let me highly recommend melamine paint. much cheaper than
> replacing cabinets.
Does it work on the insides or just on the outsides? I like the outsides
of my Home Depot previous-owner-installed cabinets just fine, but the
insides are grody.
--
Stef ** rational/scientific/philosophical/mystical/magical/kitty **
** st...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.bayarea.net/~stef **
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
PUBLIC NOTICE AS REQUIRED BY LAW: Any Use of This Product, in Any Manner
Whatsoever, Will Increase the Amount of Disorder in the Universe.
-- Hewitt / Subitzky
Stef Maruch
>I heard a good sentiment along these lines a while back:
>
>"Why are you trying so hard to keep up with the Joneses when you
>don't even like where they're going?"
In the SF Bay Area, where keeping up with the Joneses involves not
buying more and more cool things, but doing more and more cool things,
that fits even better.
--
Stef ** rational/scientific/philosophical/mystical/magical/kitty **
** st...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.bayarea.net/~stef **
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The fates seldom forget the bargains made with them, or fail to ask for
compound interest. -- Edith Wharton
heeeeeere kitty kitty...
On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, spacey wrote:
> oh, that's easy - i want a decent sized house (and no comments on my
> castle plans robin!), but i also want to live in the middle of nowhere,
> with no neighbors, and be completely self sufficient. <g> hermitism
> acquires an amazing attractiveness once you've been in school for a
> while.
i know someone who actually did that...an ex of my mom's built a castle
(yes...really) in the middle of nowhere here in TN...and the dept of
transportation has decided that they want HIS land for a highway..we're so
disgusted....
Laura
Jim Roberts
Noel Lynne Figart wrote:
>
But a little feel for brutality and disparagement mignt not be half bad, whe you
don't know what you are talking about.
And how about this .sig?
I count 20 lines when the max is supposed to be 4. I have none. Put it in your
home page an fuggetabouddit Why make us look at it?
jimbat
Some Guy on a Bike
wrote:
> (And what was that list about the socket wrenches, the cordless
> drill, and the black lace bra?)
::SWOON::
That's WAY better than Xena...
Adam (tech geek/mechanic extraordinaire)
Some Guy on a Bike
Times are likely to stay hard for about the next 16 years, unless I
find a sugar mama. :P~
I am jobhunting, and I think I've landed something more intersting and
rewarding for me, but sadly, I doubt it pays much better.
Some Guy on a Bike
> In article <FHp02...@world.std.com>, bearpaw <bea...@world.std.com> wrote:
>>st...@baygate.bayarea.net (Stef Maruch) writes:
>>> Ailsa N.T. Murphy <an...@world.std.com> wrote:
>>>> The scary thing is, I think _enough_ money might be one of those things
>>>> like the horizon.
>>> It's not.
> i concur. at least if one defines "enough" as "what do i
> really need to be reasonably comfortable". if one defines
> it as "what do i want" then there seems no limit to it. :-)
Depends on your situation. I live in suburban Atlanta. I earn
$26,400 a year. Of that, I am allowed to spend appriximately $6000 on
keeping myself alive and paying my bills. Granted, there aren't a lot
of people like me... I hope...
Noel Lynne Figart
Jim Roberts <jim...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:37D58F64...@erols.com...
>
>
> Noel Lynne Figart wrote:
>
> >
>
> But a little feel for brutality and disparagement mignt not be half bad,
whe you
> don't know what you are talking about.
>
> And how about this .sig?
>
> I count 20 lines when the max is supposed to be 4. I have none. Put it
in your
> home page an fuggetabouddit Why make us look at it?
Well, when we discuss freedom of choice, I could point out since you think I
am such an evil, cruel...
<deepsighsegueintosnicker>
Look, your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries. No
go away before I taunt you a second time!
Ailsa N.T. Murphy
> On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 15:05:49 GMT, "Ailsa N.T. Murphy"
> <an...@world.std.com> wrote:
>
> > If you have one partner who
> > believes that the yuppie tendency to make kids take after school lessons
> > in everything is just awful and that summers are for kicking back and
> > enjoying life, and another who thinks that summers are for educational
> > enrichment and schools are only an adjunct to learning and parents
> > should be setting curricula for the kids themselves, things can get
> > ugly.
>
> activities, can be very educational in many ways. Especially things
> you won't get in school.
>
> I don't see how they're at all exclusive, myself. I:{>
Because only one half of the couple agrees with you. B/
-Ailsa
--
One knows his subjects cold but can't heat up Ailsa N.T. Murphy
an audience. The other promises the global an...@world.std.com
vision thing as soon as he gets his geography Contents under pressure
down. -Maureen Dowd Some settling may occur
Ailsa N.T. Murphy
> >like the horizon.
>
*chuckle* Well you see, I have this fondness for electronics....
songbird
Some Guy on a Bike <som...@somewhere.u.cant.reach> wrote in message
news:37d47155...@news.mindspring.com...
[...]
> I know the feeling. I make $26,400 a year. I take home $6k. Anyone
> have any spare food?
i've never known anyone to starve on beans, pasta, rice, fruits and
vegetables. it may be simple, but it works. cook at home and you
avoid a lot of expenses (but it does take a little time and some
forethought) including gas money, parking fees, and the tips. :)
rice - $1 and change for 5 lbs
pasta - $1 for 2 lbs
beans - varies from $1 to $2 for a few lbs
fruits - buy what is on sale and old bannanas $1 - $.10 a lb
vegetables - carrots (few lbs for $1), cabbage (three lbs for $1)
for meat you can add canned tuna for less than a $1 a can or
herring steaks or sardines for 2 for $1. if you like other kinds
of meats then that becomes a problem because then you are moving
up the cost scale. except you can sometimes get really good deals
on whole chickens or leg quarters and soup bones and the like. less
than $.40 a lb (but a lot of extra stuff you throw away).
and i've not even scratched the surface. you can also find some
good bargains for time to time on canned stuff that is nutritious or
frozen veggies. oh and i left out things like Ramen noodles. they
are yummy and quick, but unless you add some veggies they have little
nutrition other than calories and salt.
where i think many people spend a lot of money these days
are on the frozen pizzas, instant dinners, ice-cream, booze, wine,
beer (almost spelled bear :), eating out and cigs. do without those
and watch the money exodus turn to a trickle.
there is some trade off for time spent in cooking and
cleaning up, but you can minimize a lot of that by making meals
in single pots (stews and soups) and not doing the tv chef thing
of having a different bowl for each ingredient. a good spice
collection (not cheap, but done over time not too expensive either)
and a willingness to experiment help for variety's sake. eating
fresh things also cuts down on prep time (sandwiches, fruits and
veggies). in the summer months that is how it goes here and in
the winter i cook more stews and soups and bake bread or make
homemade pizza's.
(oh, it must be late, i'm really blabbing now :)
songbird (grocery bill about $90 a month
could easily be $60 if i cut out
a few of my fast food weaknesses
if i got really serious i might be able
to get down to $30-40 a month here or there
songbird
heeeeeere kitty kitty... <k...@two-geeks.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.10.990907...@vader.two-geeks.net...
[castle in the country side]
> i know someone who actually did that...an ex of my mom's built a castle
> (yes...really) in the middle of nowhere here in TN...and the dept of
> transportation has decided that they want HIS land for a highway..we're so
> disgusted....
as you drive along I-181 from Johnson City, TN towards
Asheville, NC you will see a castle on the right. it is
pretty close the the border IIRC. i don't know if it is the
same place, but it has been for sale for at least 2 years
that i can recall.
if it is i wonder if that is the place where they are
putting some chunk of the scenic parkway (the highway
is already finished that runs by it AFAICT)?
i have also stumbled across some neat places while looking
at/for houses/land/both. some of which i can never find again.
i'm also surprised i have yet to be threatened or scowled at.
i clearly do not fit in. of course i wave, turn around and
leave when it becomes clear i am lost (more than usual :),
and i do not say anything. once i open my mouth i'm food for
the last vestiges of the confederacy.
songbird (hoping people will see the humor in that last line
damnit
Some Guy on a Bike
> Some Guy on a Bike <som...@somewhere.u.cant.reach> wrote in message
> news:37d47155...@news.mindspring.com...
>> I know the feeling. I make $26,400 a year. I take home $6k. Anyone
>> have any spare food?
<snip food examples>
> where i think many people spend a lot of money these days
> are on the frozen pizzas, instant dinners, ice-cream, booze, wine,
> beer (almost spelled bear :), eating out and cigs. do without those
> and watch the money exodus turn to a trickle.
I no longer drink. I quit smoking. I don't eat fast food or pre-made
anything from the store. The main problem stems from the fact that my
basic bills far exceed $6k. So, FTMP, I've not been eating at all. I
think it's time to look into food banks on Friday.
spacey
>
> >>Vicki Rosenzweig wrote:
> >>> If you can avoid that [keeping up with the your new, richer neighbors
> >>once you > buy the new, richer house]
>
> >>oh, that's easy - i want a decent sized house (and no comments on my
> >>castle plans robin!),
>
> Lee Powell) wrote:
>
> >Of course not! I had no intentions on your plans to build a huge,
> >self-sufficient castle with no dungeon. Why would I mention how you
> >want the pool to have a branch flowing under the wall, so there was both
> >an indoor and outdoor portion? That would just be a silly thing for me
> >to comment on.
>
> If it makes you feel any better (person to whom the castle plans
> belong), my best friend and I have written out - in great and
> frightening detail - our plans for the castle we're going to build in
> the scottish highlands when several million dollars come swooping down
> out of the sky carried, like an infant, by a stork. We have about a 6
> page description of the library, and equally involved description of
> the kitchen, information on the bagpiper we're going to station on the
> roof whenever there's a thunderstorm... and vague details about
> everything else. At least we know what's important in our unreachable
> fantasies :)
>
> Meledy
<giggles> well, i'm from an engineering viewpoint, and i keep trying to
make scale drawings of the rooms and stuff. and i have a great idea for
painting the bedrooms in fresco, with big wrap-around murals, that sort
of 'extend' into the room - like the bed is a hammock that hangs from
the branches of two 'tree limbs' that extend out into the room from the
trees in the painting or something like that. i've got secret passages
planned, and hidden doors, and defensibility, and landscaping. and
vague ideas about a lot of stuff. one of these days, i might even build
a 3-d scale maodel of the building*. :)
question - do you find you have oodles of personality leaking into your
castle, to the point where you wonder if anyone else will be comfortable
in it because it is so personal? (or should that be, you wonder if
*you'd* be comfortable with anyone else in it?)
spacey
*which does have a winery underneath it - i know what's important too:)
spacey
>
> heeeeeere kitty kitty... <k...@two-geeks.net> wrote in message
> news:Pine.LNX.4.10.990907...@vader.two-geeks.net...
> [castle in the country side]
> > i know someone who actually did that...an ex of my mom's built a castle
> > (yes...really) in the middle of nowhere here in TN...and the dept of
> > transportation has decided that they want HIS land for a highway..we're so
> > disgusted....
> and i do not say anything. once i open my mouth i'm food for
> the last vestiges of the confederacy.
>
> songbird (hoping people will see the humor in that last line
> damnit
oh, 'taint that bad. just be careful which views you espouse to whom.
i was going to comment that maybe tn couldn't find anywhere else that
qualifies as 'scenic'. they aren't planning to *bulldoze* the thing,
are they? i mean the hwy is tragic, but bulldozing the castle would be
pathetic. (not to mention, if they had to buy the castle from him,
expensive).
spacey
heather e blair
Vicki Rosenzweig <v...@interport.net> wrote:
>If you can avoid that--that is, if you have a solid idea of
>what you need, what you want, what you'd like if it's not
>going to cause trouble elsewhere, and what you don't need or
>really want--you're more likely to be able to have enough
>money. Granted, there are unforeseen expenses--illness is an
>obvious one--but there's a difference between needing more
>money because you get sick or you suddenly have twins to
>raise and needing more money because you charged an expensive
>vacation and need to pay off those credit cards.
One problem, though, is when the spending of others creates
something like the arms race. Suppose that everybody else
starts wearing $1000 designers suits for their job interviews.
If I don't, then I risk not getting a job. (I might still risk it,
but you see what I mean).
- H
Kitters
>
> One problem, though, is when the spending of others creates
> something like the arms race. Suppose that everybody else
> starts wearing $1000 designers suits for their job interviews.
> If I don't, then I risk not getting a job. (I might still risk it,
> but you see what I mean).
>
> - H
Last week, a man in my office teased me relentlessly about a
dress I wore. He wanted me to tell him the designer, because he
was sure his wife had just bought the same dress at Saks. I was
so embarassed - it was a knock-off I bought at Ross for $20.
Coincidentally, he transferred to another office at the end of
the week. I finally told him the truth in his going-away card
(and I think I might've got a lunch date out of it). Anyway. My
experience is that if you look semi-presentable, nobody knows
what you spent.
Kit
meledy
><giggles> well, i'm from an engineering viewpoint, and i keep trying to
>make scale drawings of the rooms and stuff. and i have a great idea for
>painting the bedrooms in fresco, with big wrap-around murals, that sort
>of 'extend' into the room - like the bed is a hammock that hangs from
>the branches of two 'tree limbs' that extend out into the room from the
>trees in the painting or something like that.
Ooooooh. That's so cool. I like the concept of a trompe d'oliel
(sp???) indoor forest with real 3D extensions. That would be a lot of
fun.
> i've got secret passages planned, and hidden doors,
Oh so do we. I forgot those. THose were one of the first things we
talked about. I mean really, what's a castle without secret passages
and a revolving bookshelf/wall panel or two?
>question - do you find you have oodles of personality leaking into your
>castle, to the point where you wonder if anyone else will be comfortable
>in it because it is so personal? (or should that be, you wonder if
>*you'd* be comfortable with anyone else in it?)
Yeah, we've talked about the "If we ever find relationships with
people we'd want to live with they might not fit in our design scheme"
problem. As it is we had to mentally design it around the fact that
the two of us don't always have living traits that get along.
Different ideas of cleanliness and the like. And some people (not,
mind you, that we'd be likely to be involved with them) might not be
comfortable in a library and kitchen heavy sort of a castle where the
major open spaces were devoted to weapons practice. Not to mention the
fact that anyone in their right mind should fear for their bare feet
when living somplace populated by two seamstresses.But the second bit
is also true - I'm a very solitary person. A good deal of my fantasy
castle is designed around spaces in which it would be nice to be
alone.
Meledy
Josh Jasper
>
> On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 07:28:27 GMT, "songbird" <ant...@usit.net> wrote:
>
> > Some Guy on a Bike <som...@somewhere.u.cant.reach> wrote in message
> > news:37d47155...@news.mindspring.com...
>
> >> I know the feeling. I make $26,400 a year. I take home $6k. Anyone
> >> have any spare food?
>
> <snip food examples>
>
> > where i think many people spend a lot of money these days
> > are on the frozen pizzas, instant dinners, ice-cream, booze, wine,
> > beer (almost spelled bear :), eating out and cigs. do without those
> > and watch the money exodus turn to a trickle.
>
> I no longer drink. I quit smoking. I don't eat fast food or pre-made
> anything from the store. The main problem stems from the fact that my
> basic bills far exceed $6k. So, FTMP, I've not been eating at all. I
> think it's time to look into food banks on Friday.
Are you in a position where getting a higher paying job is possible
and/or desirable? Is it at all desirable to attempt to get a better
paying job or upgrade your skills to the point where you can get a
better paying job? That's something I might be able to help with,
at least in terms of advice on good ways to go about it if I knew your
general situation.
Or I could try and figure out how to stretch the $6k if you'd like.
--
I'm a Jackal on the Body Politic.
Looking for resumes in the tech sector for the SF Bay area
email polytechnical.at sign.hotbot.com include dates when you're
available
Josh Jasper
If you know people who travel overseas, you can get hand tailored
suits for cheaper than your average "good quality" suit. For an
interview, body language, grooming, elocution, self confidence, and
a damn good resume often do the trick better than "just" a suit.
People tell me I'm "on" more often than not, I tend to speak a bit too
rapidly in social situations, but in sales, I come off differntly,
and in interviews, I have different mannerisms than I do in the other
2 situations. I think it's a matter of headspace.
songbird
Some Guy on a Bike <som...@somewhere.u.cant.reach> wrote in message
> On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 07:28:27 GMT, "songbird" <ant...@usit.net> wrote:
> > Some Guy on a Bike <som...@somewhere.u.cant.reach> wrote in message
> > news:37d47155...@news.mindspring.com...
> > where i think many people spend a lot of money these days
> > are on the frozen pizzas, instant dinners, ice-cream, booze, wine,
> > beer (almost spelled bear :), eating out and cigs. do without those
> > and watch the money exodus turn to a trickle.
>
> I no longer drink. I quit smoking. I don't eat fast food or pre-made
> anything from the store. The main problem stems from the fact that my
> basic bills far exceed $6k. So, FTMP, I've not been eating at all. I
> think it's time to look into food banks on Friday.
:) i hope they can help, and good luck with the new job if you decide
to go with it. maybe that will give you more of a chance to move up?
songbird *peeps*
songbird
spacey <spa...@tamu.edu> wrote in message news:37D6666C...@tamu.edu...
> songbird wrote:
[castles in remote parts]
> > and i do not say anything. once i open my mouth i'm food for
> > the last vestiges of the confederacy.
> >
> > songbird (hoping people will see the humor in that last line
> > damnit
>
> oh, 'taint that bad. just be careful which views you espouse to whom.
oh yes. i definitly do not mention my more liberal ways to the
random person. with the high number of Baptists around i'm not sure
that would be A Good Idea[tm].
> i was going to comment that maybe tn couldn't find anywhere else that
> qualifies as 'scenic'.
i don't know if that is what is going on here or not.
> they aren't planning to *bulldoze* the thing, are they?
this i dunno. i saw a huge forsale sign last time i drove by
(mid may). i still don't know if this is the same place or not.
> i mean the hwy is tragic, but bulldozing the castle would be
> pathetic. (not to mention, if they had to buy the castle from him,
> expensive).
i suspect we are talking about different places. :)
songbird *creak*
heeeeeere kitty kitty...
On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, spacey wrote:
> songbird wrote:
> > heeeeeere kitty kitty... <k...@two-geeks.net> wrote in message
> > [castle in the country side]
> > > i know someone who actually did that...an ex of my mom's built a castle
> > > (yes...really) in the middle of nowhere here in TN...and the dept of
> > > transportation has decided that they want HIS land for a highway..we're so
> > > disgusted....
> > and i do not say anything. once i open my mouth i'm food for
> > the last vestiges of the confederacy.
> oh, 'taint that bad. just be careful which views you espouse to whom.
> i was going to comment that maybe tn couldn't find anywhere else that
> qualifies as 'scenic'. they aren't planning to *bulldoze* the thing,
> are they? i mean the hwy is tragic, but bulldozing the castle would be
> pathetic. (not to mention, if they had to buy the castle from him,
> expensive).
well, there were much better areas to put the road...it's to be an
extention of a bypass around nashville...as it is, they tore down much of
the hill that the castle is on, so it looks like it is about to fall off
into where the road is to be..they took most of his land from him as
well..personally, i think they chose his land because some people down
here don't like the 'evil pagan' look of the renfest, which is held there.
and i'm not sure if they strong-armed him into selling the land or just
took it outright..
Laura, baptist actually...
Imperialist Running Pig
>..... and i have a great idea for
>painting the bedrooms in fresco, with big wrap-around murals, that sort
>of 'extend' into the room - like the bed is a hammock that hangs from
>the branches of two 'tree limbs' that extend out into the room from the
>trees in the painting or something like that.
Ooo, that sounds nice. I want to mural someday, too.
Don't overlook the option of getting some of that sensation right now;
a hammock makes a lovely indoor lounge.
--
Piglet "But male conditioning, nonetheless. You
pig...@piglet.org were not treated like a woman." [to Julie H.]
1. Pardon me, my plurals are slipping.
2. Piglet Needs (full-time, nyc-area) Programmers!! Apply Within.
spacey
[murals 'n' hammock]
> Ooo, that sounds nice. I want to mural someday, too.
>
> Don't overlook the option of getting some of that sensation right now;
> a hammock makes a lovely indoor lounge.
<grins> yeah, it would be nice. but i'm in an apt right now, and not
too sure of the sturdiness of the walls...
spacey (remembering certain cracks in the walls and holes in the doors)
spacey
>
> On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 08:28:57 -0500, spacey <spa...@tamu.edu> wrote:
>
> ><giggles> well, i'm from an engineering viewpoint, and i keep trying to
> >painting the bedrooms in fresco, with big wrap-around murals, that sort
> >of 'extend' into the room - like the bed is a hammock that hangs from
> >the branches of two 'tree limbs' that extend out into the room from the
> >trees in the painting or something like that.
>
> (sp???) indoor forest with real 3D extensions. That would be a lot of
> fun.
yup:) Piglet said she'd like to have "a" mural too <g>. well at last
count, i had something like 15-20 bedrooms on the top floor of the main
castle, and only because the bedrooms were *big* (and came with their
own sitting rooms and bathrooms) - other details are kind of fuzzy,
though. like, i thought of having a series of seasonal paintings that
took place in different times and stuff - but what to put and from what
time? it's fun to play with though.
> > i've got secret passages planned, and hidden doors,
>
> Oh so do we. I forgot those. THose were one of the first things we
> talked about. I mean really, what's a castle without secret passages
> and a revolving bookshelf/wall panel or two?
absolutely - i always wanted one from the kitchen to the throne room:)
(not the toilet, an honest to gods throne room, with a real - if cheesy
- throne) thru a shared fireplace.
> >question - do you find you have oodles of personality leaking into your
> >castle, to the point where you wonder if anyone else will be comfortable
> >in it because it is so personal? (or should that be, you wonder if
> >*you'd* be comfortable with anyone else in it?)
>
> Yeah, we've talked about the "If we ever find relationships with
> people we'd want to live with they might not fit in our design scheme"
> problem. As it is we had to mentally design it around the fact that
> the two of us don't always have living traits that get along.
> Different ideas of cleanliness and the like. And some people (not,
> mind you, that we'd be likely to be involved with them) might not be
> comfortable in a library and kitchen heavy sort of a castle where the
> major open spaces were devoted to weapons practice. Not to mention the
> fact that anyone in their right mind should fear for their bare feet
> when living somplace populated by two seamstresses.But the second bit
> is also true - I'm a very solitary person. A good deal of my fantasy
> castle is designed around spaces in which it would be nice to be
> alone.
>
> Meledy
yeah. my problem comes in from the fact that a lot of this castle has
certain traits of the paranoid mind - like the bottom story doesn't have
windows at all, and the upper story windows are not actually in room
walls (my design is a basically a 'double-hull' system - i thought the
air barrier would help for insulation). my ex thought this was
horrible. it probably is, but i felt that would give me a feeling of
'safety' - as the lady said, assassins can't climb in the window if
there isn't one. the dungeon thing is another 'this is not a compatible
idea' thing. robin, and our two friends d and k both thought a dungeon
(for bdsming stuff) would be a *great* idea - and i'm thinking "um, no,
that does not go here". this castle is so 'me', i think i'd have a hard
time getting my own kids to live in it (!), even though i frequently
imagine a sort of extended family inhabiting it.
my castle is the sort of place where i can be as heretical as i want,
and the krazies won't get me. the concept of castle for me incl the
gardens and the supporting grounds 'n' stuff. its a retreat where i can
be myself, and my friends can be myself, and no one is 'weird' because
in there, 'weird' is magically transformed to 'normal'.
huh. if i don't stop rambling, i'll give away design secrets:)
spacey
Tina Marie
In article <37D56977...@secant.com>, Susan Davis <s...@secant.com> wrote:
>(And what was that list about the socket wrenches, the cordless
>drill, and the black lace bra?)
I'll see your cordless drill and raise you a power sander and a Dremel!
Tina Marie
--
skydiver - PP-ASEL - N860SG \*\ An apostrophe does not mean, "Yikes!
http://www.neosoft.com/~tina \*\ Here comes an 's'!" - Dave Barry
Aahz Maruch
Tina Marie <ti...@starbase.neosoft.com> wrote:
>In article <37D56977...@secant.com>, Susan Davis <s...@secant.com> wrote:
>>
>>(And what was that list about the socket wrenches, the cordless
>>drill, and the black lace bra?)
>
>I'll see your cordless drill and raise you a power sander and a Dremel!
Oooo! ToolSizeWars!
--
--- Aahz (@netcom.com)
Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het <*> http://www.rahul.net/aahz/
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 (if you want to know, do some research)
Imperialist Running Pig
>meledy wrote:
>> Ooooooh. That's so cool. I like the concept of a trompe d'oliel
>> (sp???) indoor forest with real 3D extensions. That would be a lot of
>> fun.
>yup:) Piglet said she'd like to have "a" mural too <g>.
Did not! Said I wanted to mural, too. Verbifying weirds language?
>well at last
>count, i had something like 15-20 bedrooms on the top floor of the main
>castle, and only because the bedrooms were *big* (and came with their
>own sitting rooms and bathrooms) - other details are kind of fuzzy,
>though. like, i thought of having a series of seasonal paintings that
>took place in different times and stuff ...
*drool*
Imperialist Running Pig
>Imperialist Running Pig wrote:
>> Don't overlook the option of getting some of that sensation right now;
>> a hammock makes a lovely indoor lounge.
><grins> yeah, it would be nice. but i'm in an apt right now, and not
>too sure of the sturdiness of the walls...
Hammock stand! Is your freend. Also allows you to re-position the
hammock at will, pretty necessary when you're dealing with a piece of
furniture bigger than most sofas. (But far more collapsible.)
Kitters
> Hammock stand! Is your freend. Also allows you to re-position the
> hammock at will, pretty necessary when you're dealing with a piece of
> furniture bigger than most sofas. (But far more collapsible.)
> --
I bought a hammock and a hammock stand for my husband recently.
I needed the stand mainly because I have lousy trees, and it cost
just as much as the hammock. I was amazed at how much space it
took. I don't think it'd fit in the house, though I didn't try
it. My kid likes to dump us out of it anyway.
Next time he bugs me about trading in our queen bed for a king, I
think I'll covertly replace it with the hammock instead. Do you
think he'll notice?
Kit