numbers? (help)
PranaChomp
go higher? Five, six, seven?
Speaking as an outsider/newcomer, I am wondering if this sort of thing LASTS
when you get up to the high numbers. It's hard enough to get two people to
agree on anything. Yet I'm told I'm being considered for such a group in the
distant future.
Don't get mad that I'm asking about this, please. My God, I am feeling so
fragile right now. I'm trying to make some sense out of this. This is only my
second relationship of any sort in my whole life, and I've been hearing some
things that are hard to swallow. I would like to be able to bounce ideas off
someone somewhere other than The Girl. Hope it isn't too ironic that I am here
since I am not poly. (I am monogamous bi, which makes it very very hard to find
a niche.) I would feel like a big tattletale talking to my other friends about
her, even though she mentions It a lot.
I've read Love without Limits (thanks, first male lover!) and skimmed over a
few issues of Loving More. All I am picking up from that is the idea of "well,
you must not be as evolved as we are or you wouldn't even question anything or
feel at all creepy." It hurts. I feel ganged up on, between the lit. and The
Girl and The Other Creature and The Other Creature's Wifeish Thing. But I get
the sense that the folks in this newsgroup are NOT going to bite my head off
when I say "I don't get it." Judging from what I've read here and the FAQs,
y'all seem pretty nice. (If I can't talk here, where the hell am I supposed to
go?)
The Girl and I have avoided direct talk about It lately, partly because I am
about to get outed on national TV (long story). I am not wanting to leave
right away because if I do, there really won't be enough people around me for
emotional support during this difficult time. The Girl also has major
abandonment issues, which is why I am trying to make sure she really is poly at
heart and not just terrified of finding herself alone. Not sure if that would
change anything though.
sniffle......
MoPoJo
Elise Matthesen
First, welcome to alt.polyamory! Pull up a chair and sit down; don't
worry, we're mostly civil. Care for an imaginary cookie?
PranaChomp wrote:
>
> I'm hearing about groups of three and four. In your experience, do the numbers
> go higher? Five, six, seven?
I haven't experienced groups who were all involved with each other
member that had that many people in them, but if your question could be
interpreted to include what some of us call "polywebs," things where
this triad and that couple connect through that link, and so on, then
yeah, I have seen some configurations that have five or six or seven
members, or more.
Not all connections need to be the same kind, or the same intensity. Or
under the same agreements. (Plus the connections, almost needless to
say, do not even have to be sexual. There are many ways to make a
polyweb, and some members might be connected "just" by love, although
the phrase "just" makes it sound like that's less than a sexual
connection is, which I don't mean at all.)
>
> Speaking as an outsider/newcomer, I am wondering if this sort of thing LASTS
> when you get up to the high numbers.
Well, now, the meaning of "LASTS" is a question. If there is a poly
group with four members, and one of them divorces the other three, has
it lasted? For whom has/hasn't it lasted? Would your answer change if
one member died, widow/er/ing the others?
If a group *adds* a new member, is that the same thing as "lasting", or
has the change meant the end of the old configuration and hence of that relationship?
>It's hard enough to get two people to
> agree on anything. Yet I'm told I'm being considered for such a group in the
> distant future.
Hmm. You sound a little uneasy, at least insofar as I'm reading between
the lines. I dunno about you, but I might be uneasy if I were "told I'm
being considered" for something. Are you also considering these people?
Is this a one-way street, or do your feelings and your ability to accept
or decline matter too?
('Scuze me for being nosy; but your ascii looked concerned.)
>
> Don't get mad that I'm asking about this, please.
Not mad at all. I think well of people who can ask questions that are
important to them, and ask them respectfully. You seem to be doing that.
>My God, I am feeling so
> fragile right now.
It's good to know when you're feeling fragile, because you have a better
opportunity to take good care of yourself, and ask for help, et cetera.
(Lots of good folks have their fragile times.)
>I'm trying to make some sense out of this. This is only my
> second relationship of any sort in my whole life,
So you've got only a certain amount of experience so far to draw on, and
this new thing is kind of overwhelming, is that it? (If your previous
experience was good, you'll know some of what works well, maybe. And if
it was not so good, you might know some of what doesn't work well for
you yet. And even aside from that, a willingness to think about these
things is a great advantage, imo.)
> and I've been hearing some
> things that are hard to swallow. I would like to be able to bounce ideas off
> someone somewhere other than The Girl. Hope it isn't too ironic that I am here
> since I am not poly.
Nah, it's not too ironic. We've got a bunch of nice folks here who
aren't poly; you're likely to hear from some of them.
>(I am monogamous bi, which makes it very very hard to find
> a niche.)
Pleased to meetcha! I'm bi, too, although I am not monogamous at this
point. (But I strongly support the right of anybody, bisexual or
otherwise, to be monogamous if that is what they want to do.) Yeah, I
do hear from some folks that there are sometimes places where it is hard
to find the other monogamous bisexuals in the crowd, and a person can
feel pretty unique... in not a comfortable way sometimes. (My experience
was often to have trouble finding the *polyamorous* bisexuals in the
crowd...that is, after I found the bisexuals in the crowd..... Mileage
varies so much on these things, but I think Murphy's Law has a corollary
that says whatever you are, you'll find the other sort around you....)
> I would feel like a big tattletale talking to my other friends about
> her, even though she mentions It a lot.
Well, is there some place you *can* talk? Besides here, I mean.
There's probably some other option besides "tattletale" and "clam up".
>
> I've read Love without Limits (thanks, first male lover!) and skimmed over a
> few issues of Loving More.
Some people have found those useful in their first introduction to
polyamory. (Depends on the person as to whether that style of it fits them.)
> All I am picking up from that is the idea of "well,
> you must not be as evolved as we are or you wouldn't even question anything or
> feel at all creepy."
Well, this is one of the reasons I don't like LWL and Loving More very
much myself. I think that to tell somebody who's honestly grappling with
stuff like comfort levels, jealousy, unfamiliarity, ways of starting
poly relationships, and so forth, that the trouble is because they
aren't *evolved enough* is ... is hurtful, and smug, and Just Plain Not
True. (And that's hardly the kind of behaviour a Highly Evolved being
would have towards a new friend/lover, in my opinion, so Q.E.D.)
Let me offer you a second opinion. (And first, I'll tell you that it's
worth what you pay for it, and that as far as I can tell, I'm not Highly
Evolved.) I think that if you feel like something is creepy, then that's
a very important thing for you to pay attention to. And I think that if
you question things, you're quite possibly showing that you have an open
mind *and* the ability to reason, and that you aren't likely to commit
to something uncritically or without examining it.
(I also think that people who are afraid of questions being asked are
trying to pull something over on somebody, but that is because I am a
suspicious kind of beast sometimes.)
It's like any other relationship thing: if somebody asks you to go
against your better judgement and your gut-and-heart-and-soul knowledge
in order to Prove Something (whether it's that you love them, or that
you're highly evolved, or liberated, or that you can take a joke,
whatever it is), they are exhibiting the kind of behavior that students
of con artists watch for, and their pitch should be examined closely for
the hook.
If what they're pitching is real, taking your time and examining it
carefully will bring to you a deeper knowledge and trust. If it's bogus
and a con, they'll try to push you into jumping before you are ready.
(That's my opinion on that sort of thing, anyhow, for what it's worth.)
> It hurts. I feel ganged up on, between the lit. and The
> Girl and The Other Creature and The Other Creature's Wifeish Thing.
Sounds pretty uncomfortable. Is there anybody with the same concerns
you have?
> But I get
> the sense that the folks in this newsgroup are NOT going to bite my head off
> when I say "I don't get it."
Most won't.
> Judging from what I've read here and the FAQs,
> y'all seem pretty nice. (If I can't talk here, where the hell am I supposed to
> go?)
I hope you can talk here.... *and* that more places to talk become
available to you, too.
>
> The Girl and I have avoided direct talk about It lately, partly because I am
> about to get outed on national TV (long story).
Um, is this a time for congratulations or condolences? (And which nation?)
> I am not wanting to leave
> right away because if I do, there really won't be enough people around me for
> emotional support during this difficult time.
When you say "leave," does that mean you live with these people already?
> The Girl also has major
> abandonment issues, which is why I am trying to make sure she really is poly at
> heart and not just terrified of finding herself alone. Not sure if that would
> change anything though.
>
> sniffle......
>
> MoPoJo
It sounds from what you say like you are being asked to have a
relationship with a philosophy, rather than with some people. How does
it feel to you?
Elise,
glad you made it here.
PranaChomp
To answer your questions....no, The Girl and I are not living together. Only
been going out for a couple months. The situation proposed (distant future,
after not-yet-existent child/ren conceived) is 5 or 6 partners (most of which
have not been specified). The couple doesn't live with her currently.
Was I consulted? Yes and no. Much has been assumed without actual questions
coming up. (This keeps happening to me, someone assuming I will marry them,
for example, without actually proposing to me or even bringing flowers.) I
don't think The Girl means me any harm, just that she and this bigger-than-me
thing have the capacity to swallow me up with nothing of me left over. Strong
personality vs. introvert, for one thing. But I wonder if it's inherent in the
situation, like everything HAS to be about the one with all the lovers.
Thought about a one night stand to even the score, but 1. she wouldn't care,
2. if she did, I wouldn't do it, 3. I've had casual sex before and found it
tremendously unsatisfying.
>Sounds pretty uncomfortable. Is there anybody with the same concerns
>you have?
Oh, they've tried to start discussions, very meek and mild in tone, but it
sounds like "Please start out with a matter of the heart and translate it to
some cold analytical issue of logic so the rest of us can pick it apart." I'm
tempted to do the same thing myself, but it wouldn't help.
>> The Girl and I have avoided direct talk about It lately, partly because I
>am
>> about to get outed on national TV (long story).
>
>Um, is this a time for congratulations or condolences? (And which nation?)
That remains to be seen. :-)
Which nation? Pagan, definitely. Queer, possibly. Haven't seen the footage.
(Never assume that a camera-bearing creature is local.)
>It sounds from what you say like you are being asked to have a
>relationship with a philosophy, rather than with some people. How does
>it feel to you?
Since The Girl has a hard time separating politics from identity, I'm not sure
how to answer that.
How does it feel? I'm scared. I'm scared about not knowing where these people
have been and where they are going to be, anytime they feel like it....scared
when I hear phrases like "germs don't cause disease"........scared that The
Girl is the center of the universe and my life is never going to be about
Me........scared that she, my best friend, is going to cry when all this comes
to the front and either one of us dumps the other......scared that various
technicalities will cause me to again and again be alone in the world, just as
before.........and scared of the unknown-quantity, stranger-in-a-dark-alley
sort of vibes that I'm feeling in relation to This, as opposed to her in
particular.....
That's what kills me. The same thing attracts and repels me. I like her
because she is so understanding and accepting. But ...is it possible to be so
understanding and accepting that you are neither? Or maybe this is just a
matter of incompatibility. I don't know anymore. It's almost 5 in the
morning, for crying out loud (literally). I'm going to bed. Toss me a virtual
box of tissues before I go. Thanks.
MoPoJo
Josh Jasper
PranaChomp wrote:
>
> I'm hearing about groups of three and four. In your experience, do the numbers
> go higher? Five, six, seven?
>
I'm in a "tribe" of more than four. We don't all live together, and
probably wont, nor are We likely to. I'm a 6 hour drive from most of
them.
I'm ALSO in a quad, which has (predictably) four people. Once some
things like one person's cat allergies and my cat get dealt with
(we're thinking of a granny unit near a rented house) I probably will
move in with everyone, instead of one person.
> Speaking as an outsider/newcomer, I am wondering if this sort of thing LASTS
> when you get up to the high numbers. It's hard enough to get two people to
> agree on anything. Yet I'm told I'm being considered for such a group in the
> distant future.
>
I'm not sure there are enough for a reasonable statistic to be based on.
> Don't get mad that I'm asking about this, please. My God, I am feeling so
> fragile right now. I'm trying to make some sense out of this. This is only my
> second relationship of any sort in my whole life, and I've been hearing some
> things that are hard to swallow. I would like to be able to bounce ideas off
> someone somewhere other than The Girl. Hope it isn't too ironic that I am here
> since I am not poly. (I am monogamous bi, which makes it very very hard to find
> a niche.) I would feel like a big tattletale talking to my other friends about
> her, even though she mentions It a lot.
Um, is she OK with you sharing with us?
>
> I've read Love without Limits (thanks, first male lover!) and skimmed over a
> few issues of Loving More. All I am picking up from that is the idea of "well,
> you must not be as evolved as we are or you wouldn't even question anything or
> feel at all creepy." It hurts. I feel ganged up on, between the lit. and The
> Girl and The Other Creature and The Other Creature's Wifeish Thing. But I get
> the sense that the folks in this newsgroup are NOT going to bite my head off
> when I say "I don't get it." Judging from what I've read here and the FAQs,
> y'all seem pretty nice. (If I can't talk here, where the hell am I supposed to
> go?)
>
I certainly wouldn't ever bite your head off. I might nibble a neck if
asked
politely, and given the go ahead by my quad mates :-)
> The Girl and I have avoided direct talk about It lately, partly because I am
> about to get outed on national TV (long story). I am not wanting to leave
> right away because if I do, there really won't be enough people around me for
> emotional support during this difficult time. The Girl also has major
> abandonment issues, which is why I am trying to make sure she really is poly at
> heart and not just terrified of finding herself alone. Not sure if that would
> change anything though.
>
After many, many years of being in poly relationships, I think I've
started to realize why it is am that way a few months ago. Don't
expect The Girl to explain herself right away about this. It may
take time.
--
If we shadows have offended, think but this, and all is mended, That
you have but slumber'd here while these visions did appear. And
this weak and idle theme, No more yielding but a dream, Gentles, do
not reprehend: if you pardon, we will mend.
Gwynyth
> Thanks for writing, Elise.
First of all, I want to say that (in my opinion) Elise said a lot of
good stuff. (Or rather, to be a little more accurate, she wrote a lot of
stuff I would have said if she hadn't already said it, though almost
certainly with better clarity than I generally manage)
> To answer your questions....no, The Girl and I are not living together.
> Only been going out for a couple months. The situation proposed (distant
> future, after not-yet-existent child/ren conceived) is 5 or 6 partners
> (most of which have not been specified). The couple doesn't live with her
> currently.
>
> Was I consulted? Yes and no. Much has been assumed without actual
> questions coming up. (This keeps happening to me, someone assuming I will
> marry them, for example, without actually proposing to me or even bringing
> flowers.) I don't think The Girl means me any harm, just that she and
> this bigger-than-me thing have the capacity to swallow me up with nothing
> of me left over. Strong personality vs. introvert, for one thing. But I
> wonder if it's inherent in the situation, like everything HAS to be about
> the one with all the lovers.
As has been pointed out, you get a right over your own life. Really. You
do get to stop, say "Back up a minute, I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed by
this, and can we stop making long term plans before we can talk about
this?"
That sort of request (note: lack of immediate time frame, though it's
your job to ask again if it doesn't happen or gets put off) is perfectly
reasonable. Giving control of discussions in your relationship over to
the Other Party is generally not a happy thing. (Been there, done that,
got the t-shirt, the bumpersticker and the emblazoned mug)
If The Girl really does care about you, and really does care about your
happiness in the relationship (rather than fitting you into a Grand
Scheme) then she should also care about what you think about the
relationship.
> Oh, they've tried to start discussions, very meek and mild in tone, but
> it sounds like "Please start out with a matter of the heart and translate
> it to some cold analytical issue of logic so the rest of us can pick it
> apart." I'm tempted to do the same thing myself, but it wouldn't help.
Some people do better with blunt logic. I tend to prefer to look at
possible relationships rather analytically (because I tend to figure
that my emotions are generally obvious, at least to me, and so I *know*
if I care about someone, and how strong that is or isn't). For me, it
does a lot better to go look at it from the logic and practical end.
(And I wrote up a set of questions that helps me not forget stuff that
got put on the web by request. If you want to take a look, they're at
http://www.polyamory.org/~gwynyth/questions.html)
Logic and practicality isn't necessarily cold or emotionless (I've had
plenty of practical discussions about the future of my relationships
which fully acknowledge emotion.) It's just another dimension which can
be a good tool.
> How does it feel? I'm scared. I'm scared about not knowing where these
> people have been and where they are going to be, anytime they feel like
> it....scared when I hear phrases like "germs don't cause
> disease"........scared that The Girl is the center of the universe and my
> life is never going to be about Me........scared that she, my best friend,
> is going to cry when all this comes to the front and either one of us
> dumps the other......scared that various technicalities will cause me to
> again and again be alone in the world, just as before.........and scared
> of the unknown-quantity, stranger-in-a-dark-alley sort of vibes that I'm
> feeling in relation to This, as opposed to her in particular.....
Being concerned about safe sex is *totally* sane. It's perfectly
reasonable for you to take precautions about your body and your health.
You don't get another one, after all. (Personally, I'd run screaming
away from anyone who brushed off my health concerns, but that's me.)
I'd also be concerned about the 'center of universe' thing. That way, in
my experience, lies unhappiness and manipulation, quite often - even
reasonably unintention manipulation isn't much fun. I very much prefer
to go at my relationships from the point of view of treating my partners
in relationship as partners, and as equals (and getting the same back
from them). I think I'm finally getting it sufficiently near right for
comfort with the current relationship (my third).
What might be helpful to you (and has been to me) might be figuring out
what specifically you want, and what would make you happy. Things like
"I want to be able to spend roughly X amount of time doing X with this
person." is one sort of thing. "I want to have a relationship where I
can say that I want to slow down, and that happens." or "I want to have
a relationship where I don't feel guilty asking for things that make me
comfortable" might be another. Or "I want to feel like I have direct
input and bearing on what happens in this relationship"
Once you do that - even if you don't talk about it to anyone - then you
at least have a place to start with.
> That's what kills me. The same thing attracts and repels me. I like her
> because she is so understanding and accepting. But ...is it possible to
> be so understanding and accepting that you are neither? Or maybe this is
> just a matter of incompatibility. I don't know anymore. It's almost 5 in
> the morning, for crying out loud (literally). I'm going to bed. Toss me
> a virtual box of tissues before I go. Thanks.
Take care of yourself - it's much easier to make decisions that way,
I've found, and much more pleasant, too.
Gwynyth
gwy...@polyamory.org
JennieD-O'C
>Logic and practicality isn't necessarily cold or emotionless (I've had
>plenty of practical discussions about the future of my relationships
>which fully acknowledge emotion.) It's just another dimension which can
>be a good tool.
<smooch> :-)
---
Jennie D-O'C <jenn...@intranet.org> http://home.intranet.org/~jenniedo/
Lynn Dobbs
prana...@aol.comical says...
> ... scared when I hear phrases like "germs don't cause disease"
This would be a show stopper for me. At least, I would be
firmly on the breaks until such time as clarification either
assuaged me concerns or killed the possible relationships.
> ........scared that The Girl is the center of the universe
> and my life is never going to be about Me........
I suspect this has less to do with your current relationship
and more to do with your self-image. Try this on and see if
it works for you: "I am the center of my universe." I've had
my share of giving up self to keep a relationship going.
Didn't work, probably can't work over time.
> scared that she, my best friend, is going to cry when all This comes
> to the front and either one of us dumps the other
It hurts when relationships change dramatically or end
completely. But it also hurts to keep one going in form when
their isn't anything good to back it up.
> ......scared that various
> technicalities will cause me to again and again be alone in the world, just as
> before
Can I ever identify here! I am newly unrelationshipped. It
isn't pleasant, but I have a network of local and long
distance friends to that I know that I am not alone. Still,
it scares me a bit. And all my future plans went up in
smoke. And that really hurts.
However, keeping in the current relationship (not that I had
a choice) wasn't going to work, either. No happiness at all.
> That's what kills me. The same thing attracts and repels me. I like her
> because she is so understanding and accepting. But ...is it possible to be so
> understanding and accepting that you are neither?
It is possible to _appear_ understanding and accepting and
be neither. Reparative Ministry and other "love the sinner;
hate the sin" groups try to do exactly that.
It's also part of the "we are more enlightened" syndrome you
mentioned in your first post. "We accept you, now change."
Warm and soothing drink of choice, tissues and hugs if that
works for you.
Peace, Love and Justice,
Lynn Dobbs
www.bethechange.net | "You must be the change
www.lambdaletters.org | you wish to see in the
www.hai.org | world." M.K. Gandhi
Noel Lynne Figart
wrote:
>
>But poly doesn't *have* to be intertwined with New Age Spiritual
>Enlightenment. And furthermore one does not have to be terribly
>"evolved" to be poly. Goddess knows I can be a whiny, jealous,
>demanding, childish creature. But I am managing poly OK.
AMEN! One of the things I find curious is the assumption that I am
poly means I am pagan. I'm not. I have no more religon than a goat
and like it that way.
(Not that I exhibit any great Buddah-like calm, either).
--Peter Vinton, Jr.
Artist, teacher, passionmonger
(and a Rogue on my OWN godd*mn terms)
"Creativity is the ultimate natural resource."
Visit The Pendragon Dream Factory Galleries at
http://Welcome.to/PendragonDreamFactory
Stef Maruch
>In article <20000519050544...@ng-fq1.aol.com>,
>prana...@aol.comical says...
>
>> ... scared when I hear phrases like "germs don't cause disease"
>
>This would be a show stopper for me. At least, I would be
>firmly on the breaks until such time as clarification either
>assuaged me concerns or killed the possible relationships.
Hahahahaha. A sweetie of mine for nigh on ten years came out with
something like that just a few months ago. ("I don't believe in the germ
theory of disease.") You can be sure I dove into that with some vigor,
and after some conversation it turned out that what she meant was
something more along the lines of "Well, I believe that viruses and
bacteria exist, and I believe that one's state of mind can affect
whether one becomes vulnerable to infection by particular viruses and
bacteria -- because after all, not *everybody* gets every cold that is
going around." Whew. I didn't have a problem with that statement, but I
was worried there for a while.
--
Stef ** rational/scientific/philosophical/mystical/magical/kitty **
** st...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.bayarea.net/~stef **
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What part of 'yes' didn't you understand? -- SFJ
Stef Maruch
>I'm hearing about groups of three and four. In your experience, do the
>numbers go higher? Five, six, seven?
Like others, I think larger groups are more likely to be "interconnected
webs where everyone is at least friendly with each other and possibly
more" than "tightly intertwined families where everyone lives together
and everyone is romantically/sexually involved with everyone else in the
family."
>Speaking as an outsider/newcomer, I am wondering if this sort of thing
>LASTS when you get up to the high numbers.
What does "lasts" mean to you? I think the more people involved, the
more likely that some of the people will change their relationships with
some of the other people. If that means to you that the "thing" hasn't
lasted, then I think you're right to wonder. But if the "thing" doesn't
depend on all the people involved remaining in the same kinds of
relationships to each other for long periods of time, then the thing
could be said to last as long as the people remain in *some* kind of
more-positive-than-negative relationship to each other.
>It's hard enough to get two
>people to agree on anything. Yet I'm told I'm being considered for
>such a group in the distant future.
What kind of group? And what are *your* feelings in the matter?
>This
>is only my second relationship of any sort in my whole life, and I've
>been hearing some things that are hard to swallow.
Such as?
>I would like to
>be able to bounce ideas off someone somewhere other than The Girl.
>Hope it isn't too ironic that I am here since I am not poly. (I am
>monogamous bi, which makes it very very hard to find a niche.)
I think you're welcome here on this newsgroup as whatever sort of person
you are, as long as you're respectful of the option of polyamory for
other people.
>I've read Love without Limits (thanks, first male lover!) and skimmed
>over a few issues of Loving More. All I am picking up from that is the
>idea of "well, you must not be as evolved as we are or you wouldn't
>even question anything or feel at all creepy." It hurts. I feel
>ganged up on,
I know *exactly* how you feel. It bothers me that those publications
send off those vibes because I think it turns some people off of poly
unnecessarily.
But poly doesn't *have* to be intertwined with New Age Spiritual
Enlightenment. And furthermore one does not have to be terribly
"evolved" to be poly. Goddess knows I can be a whiny, jealous,
demanding, childish creature. But I am managing poly OK.
>between the lit. and The Girl and The Other Creature and
>The Other Creature's Wifeish Thing.
Now the fact that you feel ganged up on by the other potential family
members is troublesome. If they are into the New Age Spiritual
Enlightenment thing, and you aren't, it might be hard to fit you all
into the family comfortably.
--
Stef ** rational/scientific/philosophical/mystical/magical/kitty **
** st...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.bayarea.net/~stef **
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
There is always an easy solution to every human problem -- neat,
plausible, and wrong. -- H. L. Mencken
Freyja
Noel Lynne Figart <noelf...@va.prestige.net> wrote in message
news:39259567...@news.va.prestige.net...
| >Enlightenment. And furthermore one does not have to be terribly
| >"evolved" to be poly. Goddess knows I can be a whiny, jealous,
| >demanding, childish creature. But I am managing poly OK.
|
| poly means I am pagan. I'm not. I have no more religon than a goat
| and like it that way.
I wonder why that assumption occurs so much. I'm Lutheran, my fiance
is "not much of anything", and my OSO is Christian. The cats expect
worship (and get it), but that's just in the job description of being
owned by cats. >^^<
| (Not that I exhibit any great Buddah-like calm, either).
Anyone with children may find that calm difficult to exhibit. ;-) I
had enough trouble with that calm watching my siblings, being the
eldest. Of nine. The calm lasted 15 minutes.
--
Freyja
(de-spam e-mail addy)
bearpaw
> ...
>Well, this is one of the reasons I don't like LWL and Loving More very
>much myself. I think that to tell somebody who's honestly grappling with
>stuff like comfort levels, jealousy, unfamiliarity, ways of starting
>poly relationships, and so forth, that the trouble is because they
>aren't *evolved enough* is ... is hurtful, and smug, and Just Plain Not
>True. (And that's hardly the kind of behaviour a Highly Evolved being
>would have towards a new friend/lover, in my opinion, so Q.E.D.)
A big "Me Too" for all of what Elise said, especially this chunk.
I mean, maybe my visualization technique is short a crystal or two,
but I have a really hard time imagining a Highly Evolved Being who
wouldn't be *patient*. Especially with the people they love.
Bearpaw
--
~~~~~~~~~~~ bea...@aq.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I was gratified to be able to answer promptly, and I did.
I said I didn't know." - Mark Twain
Rivka
Stef Maruch wrote in message <8g41a...@news1.newsguy.com>...
>
>Hahahahaha. A sweetie of mine for nigh on ten years came out
>with something like that just a few months ago. ("I don't believe
>in the germ theory of disease.") You can be sure I dove into that
>with some vigor, and after some conversation it turned out that
>what she meant was something more along the lines of "Well, I
>believe that viruses and bacteria exist, and I believe that one's
>state of mind can affect whether one becomes vulnerable to
>infection by particular viruses and bacteria -- because after all,
>not *everybody* gets every cold that is going around."
Ah. She meant to say, "I don't believe that the germ theory is a
*sufficient* explanation of disease," then. Which is enough of a
mainstream idea that it's the basis of the profession of behavioral
medicine, and has whole journals and organizations and conferences and
medical school departments predicated upon it.
Still, I can see why you jumped at that. I have run into the
occasional person who believes that all illness involves some sort of
spiritual failure. In my opinion it's all tied in with what's been
called the 'just world hypothesis,' the idea that people get what they
deserve. It's supposed to be such a seductively comforting hypothesis
that most people believe it on some level, probably subconsciously...
but it's hard for me to see how. I've always thought it was utterly
horrible.
--
Rivka is ri...@iowacity.net and a fifth-year graduate student in
clinical psych.
"I don't long for a gender-free society, but I would dearly love one
that wasn't gender-*stupid*." - Elise Matthesen
Margaret Alia Denny
> >much myself. I think that to tell somebody who's honestly grappling with
> >stuff like comfort levels, jealousy, unfamiliarity, ways of starting
> >poly relationships, and so forth, that the trouble is because they
> >aren't *evolved enough* is ... is hurtful, and smug, and Just Plain Not
> >True. (And that's hardly the kind of behaviour a Highly Evolved being
> >would have towards a new friend/lover, in my opinion, so Q.E.D.)
>
> A big "Me Too" for all of what Elise said, especially this chunk.
> I mean, maybe my visualization technique is short a crystal or two,
> but I have a really hard time imagining a Highly Evolved Being who
> wouldn't be *patient*. Especially with the people they love.
>
I gotta Me Too here as well. To both Elise and Bearpaw. Elise,
sometimes you say things so well it's hard to follow up! :)
--
Alia / Copyright fno...@earthlink.net
Ligneous and petrous projectiles can potentially fracture my osseous
structure, but pejorative appellations will forever remain innocuous.
PranaChomp
>>distant future.
>
> are you considering it? how come you are being considered?
It's so confusing. But then, so is any interaction I've ever had with a
Sagittarius, especially one who brings that zodiac sign up in every other
breath.
She's trying to be gentle and understanding and all that. And I am apparently
#1 in her heart. But I can't help feeling like the sidekick. Joseph to Mary,
Mother of God. Sancho Panza to Don Quixote. Sganarelle to Don Juan. The wind
beneath somebody else's wings.
I am not the wind beneath anybody's wings. I have my own. (That's my quote.
gonna put that in a painting--I haven't painted anything or written anything
for a couple of months back when we started)
>>It hurts. I feel ganged up on, between the lit. and The
>>Girl and The Other Creature and The Other Creature's Wifeish Thing.
>
> cute names. but please, in case you do, don't think of the
> OCWT as a "thing". she's likely as human as you are, and
> comes complete with fears, hopes, dreams -- the whole basket
> full of goodies.
Yeah, I know. I actually haven't met her. She doesn't figure much into this
at all. The Girl used to live with them in an emergency situation. TOC is
around some though.
> ok. what don't you get, in specific?
I don't even know how to answer that. The whole thing is overwhelming, and I
don't know how or where I can step back and look at the picture. As I
mentioned, this is only my second relationship ever.
I think maybe there is an entirely different mentality for some. I tried to
explain how I feel, and she doesn't understand why anything might make me feel
icky. It's like she doesn't have that bone in her body. I can think
intellectually of many reasons why she might feel the way she does, but that's
not the same thing as relating to it myself.
>>I am not wanting to leave
>>right away because if I do, there really won't be enough people around me
>for
>>emotional support during this difficult time.
>
> leave what? for where? is "the girl" wanting to move in
> with the creatures?
No, she wants the two of us moving in together (not sure how that ties in with
the distant-future plan for others being around). We talked a little more
today, and we're both hinting about dumping the other. I don't know if she
will do the actual dumping or what. I do know I'm trying to figure out what
exactly I want this to become. Do I want us to be just friends? Something
like friends only higher? (Is there a word for that?) Or do I want a good
friend who's an occasional fuck buddy? (I can't even explain why that would be
more understandable.)
The way I am wired, this (relationship with poly) just doesn't feel lasting.
This realization drove me crazy until I tweaked something within myself and
learned to think of the relationship as temporary, albeit indefinite.
The whole setup feels like one of those sexual "science experiments" I've heard
of where the straight/bi person comes along and does the gay person, gains
experience, and leaves. She was afraid of that, since I am bi and she's not. I
could understand this relationship if it were a science experiment, but it's
not.
Don't know where to go from here, but thank you for being there. (Additional
responses are welcome.)
MoPoJo
piranha
PranaChomp <prana...@aol.comical> wrote:
>Piranha, you asked some very apt questions for the most part. I'll try to
>answer, but some of this is purely gut stuff, not verbal.
some questions are really more for you to think on than for
me to hear answers to. it sounds overall like you've pretty
much figured out where this is going for you.
>>>She's trying to be gentle and understanding and all that. And I am
>>>apparently #1 in her heart.
>>
>> apparently to her, but not to you, i gather.
>
>This may seem ironic to you, but the poly thing, which makes her feel free,
>makes me feel restricted. This may have interfered with my getting attached,
>or maybe it wasn't supposed to happen anyway. I don't know.
no, that isn't particularly ironic; it's sad because you two
fell in love, yet you appear to have such divergent feelings
about relationship structure that it probably can't work out.
been there. *sigh*.
>Explanation: I am much better able to relax and feel safe, physically and
>emotionally, when I know my partner isn't with anyone else. That's not a value
>judgement. That is how I feel.
yes, that makes sense, even though i don't feel that way in
general. i _do_ feel that way with a partner who is very
strongly monogamous in the sense of looking for "the one" --
i tend to fear that it isn't me, and that i'll get dumped if
the real one (or mostly, the next one who seems like the one)
comes along. past experience has built a foundation for that
fear.
i also can't relax if i am with somebody who likes to fuck
everything that moves. really no value judgment, but i get
too afraid of bad consequences to really feel safe. i don't
value sex very highly (ie. it's not "the most intimate con-
nection i can have with another human being" and it's not even
a special means of communication for me; it's just an activity,
like canoeing together), so it doesn't really matter to me in
a personal way if a partner who feels this way about it goes
and has lots of sex with others out there. but sex has rather
more potential for having bad and lasting consequences than
canoeing (at least flatwater canoeing :-), and i fear those,
despite safer sex provisions on which i insist.
>Last night I dreamed I was supposed to sing a song very loudly in some sort of
>library (vocalize something in a space that normally calls for quietness). I
>knew The Girl was going to walk in, and I wanted her to overhear me singing it
>even though she would feel bad. The song? "Someone Saved My Life Tonight." I
>looked it up in my Elton John songbook tonight and cried when I saw the second
>verse.
sorry, but i really stink at remembering lyrics, so i have no
idea what this refers to (and the phone line is being used so
i can't check the web).
>> so you're being considered for a poly relationship by people,
>> one of whom you haven't even met? or is your SO just spinning
>> lovely fantasies? do you know?
>
>Specific about many things such as numbers, location of housing, and the like,
>not about WHO (except me).
oh, it's "the dream". yeah, many of us have that one or a si-
milar one. in mine me and my beloveds own a huge piece of
property on the west coast of canada, mostly wooded, with in-
dividual lodgings for people, some of whom might prefer to
have their very own space (like myself), others who might want
to build a group home. we share resources, and it's easy to
just walk over for a visit with the others. we work together,
some rear kids, etc.
i probably won't get there because it's a dream which i am not
working actively towards making reality, and part of why i do
not do it is that i think it'd probably never come together --
my beloveds are too different to all share the vision, never-
mind that they live in different countries with their own at-
tachments. (i could give up the west coast of canada for an
old ramshackle castle in ireland, though. :-)
>> can you pick away at a corner, any corner, of that pile of
>> confusion? free-associate maybe if it looks just too impos-
>> sible.
>
>A squick is a squick is a squick. Sorry if that isn't real profound. But you
>touched on that anyway when you described your own distaste for massage.
oh, it's a squick. well, then. that wasn't clear to me before.
then there isn't much left to be said, since it sounds as if you
don't want to get rid of the squick. that leaves no alternative
but breaking up (or making each other miserable, which i imagine
you don't care to choose).
>I know she loves me, but I know, really know now, that this is an impossible
>situation. She wants one thing and I want another. Anybody who compromises is
>going to feel slighted and stepped on.
sounds like it. sorry to hear it, but a clean break-up is a
lot better than dragging things out when you really know that
there is no common path.
>> i needn't deny my love for anybody, i needn't
>> give it up, i needn't edit history to make it worth less than
>> it actually was so the newest love doesn't have to feel infe-
>> rior.
>
>I am monogamous, and I don't edit my history. I still love others. I just
>don't sleep with them. That is my choice and theirs.
if you do monogamy in reasonably standard ways, that's not the
only thing you don't do with others. you also won't share the
same life entanglements with others, and you likely will not
be as emotionally close with them (and if you are, your mono-
gamous relationship will have some trouble adjusting to that).
most monogamists make their spouse their primary partner, and
everyone else doesn't get up there. kids might be the excep-
tion, but those same people tell me that loving their kids is
"different".
there is IMO a lot more to polyamory than sex, and sex isn't
the distinguishing characteristic anyway -- i resist the attempt
to take over this word and have it mean "have sex with multiple
people during the same time period". i have never had sex with
> 1 person during the same time period (i have the lowest sex
drive of any of my beloveds). but i am so _not_ monogamous in
the way i relate to others; i don't have a huge gap between my
partner and the rest of the people i care for; i happily share
my life with people with most of whom i never have sex (or had
sex at some point in time and no longer do now). i am poly-
_amorous_ -- i feel romantic love for multiple people. that may,
but often does not, include sex. sex doesn't define my relation-
ships, love does. yes, if i could (and if i supported the idea
of state-sponsored marriage), i would marry these people; that
is the level of intertwinedness and commitment i feel.
>Thanks for bending an ear. (BTW, I liked the Borg joke.) The next few days,
>we may be "living in interesting times." I hope we remain friends.
i do hope the breakup is amiable, yes. best wishes. too bad
you're probably gonna drop this group, you have interesting ways
of thinking.
-piranha
fairest one
[snip]
: Still, I can see why you jumped at that. I have run into the
: occasional person who believes that all illness involves some sort of
: called the 'just world hypothesis,' the idea that people get what they
: deserve. It's supposed to be such a seductively comforting hypothesis
: that most people believe it on some level, probably subconsciously...
: but it's hard for me to see how. I've always thought it was utterly
: horrible.
"You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I
thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible
things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I
take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the
universe."
-- Marcus to Franklin in Babylon 5:"A Late Delivery from Avalon"
betsy,
nothing original to say...
--
"you know, hobbes, some days even my lucky rocket-ship underpants
don't help." --calvin (kall...@tiny.net)
Blanche Nonken
> > ... scared when I hear phrases like "germs don't cause disease"
>
> This would be a show stopper for me. At least, I would be
> firmly on the breaks until such time as clarification either
> assuaged me concerns or killed the possible relationships.
Yow. I used to see stuff like that on the VacAware email list until it
went Read Only. There was a guy on there who claimed that root canals
caused heart disease, and his evidence was that when you implanted a
piece of RC'd tooth under a rabbit's skin, there would be inflammation
whereas when you did it with an intact tooth, nothing would happen.
astral alice
>
> "You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I
> thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible
> things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I
> take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the
> universe."
>
> -- Marcus to Franklin in Babylon 5:"A Late Delivery from Avalon"
Thanks for posting that. It helps with how I'm feeling at the moment.
alice.
--
* astral alice: bi, poly, goth | http://www.death.org.uk *
* alice on Surfers | telnet://surfers.org 4242 *
* --------------------------------------------------------------------- *
* What's the name of the word for things not being the same always? You *
* know... the thing that lets you know time is happening? - The Sandman *
Magn0lia
> I suspect this has less to do with your current relationship and more to
> do with your self-image. Try this on and see if it works for you: "I am
> the center of my universe." I've had my share of giving up self to keep
> a relationship going. Didn't work, probably can't work over time.
How do you know what's part of your "self", though? It seems to me that
people frequently give up smoking to keep a relationship going, or
gaming, or porn, or time on-line, or pets, or going out at night, or
career, or family of origin. Some of those people appear to be happy
with the trade-off and some are later quite resentful. What criteria can
one use to decide "this is too important to give up"?
--
M a g n 0 l i a http://www.pedantic.com/
non-list / non-usenet mail : magd...@pedantic.com
Stef Maruch
>Lynn Dobbs <ne...@bethechange.net> wrote:
>> I suspect this has less to do with your current relationship and more to
>> do with your self-image. Try this on and see if it works for you: "I am
>> the center of my universe." I've had my share of giving up self to keep
>> a relationship going. Didn't work, probably can't work over time.
>How do you know what's part of your "self", though? It seems to me that
>people frequently give up smoking to keep a relationship going, or
>gaming, or porn, or time on-line, or pets, or going out at night, or
>career, or family of origin. Some of those people appear to be happy
>with the trade-off and some are later quite resentful. What criteria can
>one use to decide "this is too important to give up"?
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it,
doesn't go away. -- Philip K. Dick
I submit that something similar is true of "self."
However, sitting still long enough to be able to tell which parts of you
aren't going away takes a lot of patience and a noise-free connection to
your intuition.
--
Stef ** rational/scientific/philosophical/mystical/magical/kitty **
** st...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.bayarea.net/~stef **
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Scientists can trace some of the migration patterns of human beings
from the paw prints of the cats they took along. -- Camille Smith
bearpaw
>
>Magn0lia <magn...@mailandnews.com> wrote:
>>How do you know what's part of your "self", though? It seems to me that
>>people frequently give up smoking to keep a relationship going, or
>>gaming, or porn, or time on-line, or pets, or going out at night, or
>>career, or family of origin. Some of those people appear to be happy
>>with the trade-off and some are later quite resentful. What criteria can
>>one use to decide "this is too important to give up"?
>
> Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it,
> doesn't go away. -- Philip K. Dick
>
>I submit that something similar is true of "self."
>
>However, sitting still long enough to be able to tell which parts of you
>aren't going away takes a lot of patience and a noise-free connection to
>your intuition.
Oh. I like this a lot. I mean, I *knew* this, but tying it in with
the PKD quote helps. Yeah.
Bearpaw
--
~~~~~~~~~~~ bea...@aq.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The angels weep, but for themselves."
- from "Engine Summer", by John Crowley
piranha
at any given moment? i experiment to see how it goes,
unless i've been there and done that, and i've already
figured it out for a given factor.
in general, i listen to myself for a long time and i
keep careful notes (and one has to be painfully honest,
at least where nobody else can hear one). i have a
really solid baseline by now, from which i can experi-
ment, and a lot of it regarding relationships i know
now.
>It seems to me that
>people frequently give up smoking to keep a relationship going, or
>gaming, or porn, or time on-line, or pets, or going out at night, or
>career, or family of origin. Some of those people appear to be happy
>with the trade-off and some are later quite resentful. What criteria can
>one use to decide "this is too important to give up"?
people aren't always resentful just because the some-
thing they gave up was part of their "self" -- they are
so more often IME because they expected a certain pay-
off from their giving up -- a trade that seemed worth-
while to them at the time. well, it's not always so,
and that can breed resentment.
that can confuse the issue. and this is why i am not at
all fond of bean counting in relationships. if i am to
give up something, i want the motivation to be clear, i
want to do it for myself (even if this isn't a part of
the "self", but simply something i like doing a lot). if
i give up something just for somebody else, there's got
to be something deeper in it for me than "because zie'll
in turn do X".
so in general i look for people who don't expect me to
give up anything for them, even if they dislike something
i do. and vice versa. that means there are hard lines
around me somewhere, where a relationship can't happen.
but they're further back now because i've learned to go
against what society proclaims as proper, and can be a
lot more creative in arranging my relationships -- ie. if
i hate BDSM and my partner really likes it, well, i don't
have to do it, my partner will be free to seek those plea-
sures elsewhere with my blessing. if my partner were a
smoker, we could get adjoining duplexes. etc.
and since i've internalized that no, i needn't be able to
do and be everything to a partner, i feel more free to ex-
periment with what i do and am (that's a bit perverse, i
know, but it ties into my notion of independence, which
is a "self" issue for me).
-piranha
Lynn Dobbs
says...
> Magn0lia <magn...@mailandnews.com> wrote:
> >Lynn Dobbs <ne...@bethechange.net> wrote:
> >> I suspect this has less to do with your current relationship and more to
> >> do with your self-image. Try this on and see if it works for you: "I am
> >> the center of my universe." I've had my share of giving up self to keep
> >> a relationship going. Didn't work, probably can't work over time.
>
> >people frequently give up smoking to keep a relationship going, or
> >gaming, or porn, or time on-line, or pets, or going out at night, or
> >career, or family of origin. Some of those people appear to be happy
> >with the trade-off and some are later quite resentful. What criteria can
> >one use to decide "this is too important to give up"?
>
> doesn't go away. -- Philip K. Dick
>
> I submit that something similar is true of "self."
>
> However, sitting still long enough to be able to tell which parts of you
> aren't going away takes a lot of patience and a noise-free connection to
> your intuition.
Thought I would answer through Stef's answer so that mine might make more
sense. :)
I don't think there is criteria in the sense of applying a formula to
determine if one is making a good bargain in behavior compromises.
However, if one has developed -- consciously -- a coherent philosophy or
ethical base from which to operate, then promises can be weighed against
it. The more work one puts into determining who one is at one's core, the
more likely that one won't make poor promises.
One thing that has always seemed true for me is that my judgement about
long-term relationship value is pretty poor when faced with the short-
term affection that comes early in relationships. It has always had more
to do with affection deprivation than hormones, though.
Now that I can get lots of love and affection from friends, I am less
likely to compromise aspects of self that I consider important.
Mostly, as Stef indicated, it takes time, patience and introspection.
heather e blair
Magn0lia <magn...@mailandnews.com> wrote:
>How do you know what's part of your "self", though? It seems to me that
>people frequently give up smoking to keep a relationship going, or
>gaming, or porn, or time on-line, or pets, or going out at night, or
>career, or family of origin. Some of those people appear to be happy
>with the trade-off and some are later quite resentful. What criteria can
>one use to decide "this is too important to give up"?
I think I'm an empiricist about this kind of thing. I know now
that when I gave up certain stuff in past relationships, I had bad
results. Unlike Stef, my intuitions often suck, and unlike Lynn,
I've adopted bad philosophies of life or values at times in my life,
so I can't really rely on intuition or values to make this kind of
judgement.
I think I can reason things out a lot better than I used to. An
example of a happy compromise is when my SO and I moved in together,
I agreed to keeping the kitchen vegetarian (plus kosher fish), and
in return, he agreed to help keep things decluttered. I had found
through experience that it's really a *lot* more important to me
to not be the only person keeping a place clean or decluttered, than
it is for me to be able to roast pork in the oven.
--
"Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate things." -- Vice President
Dan Quayle, 11/30/88
Josh Jasper
heather e blair wrote:
>
> In article <1ebia8o.j2g6j5yhmlvkN%magn...@mailandnews.com>,
> Magn0lia <magn...@mailandnews.com> wrote:
>
> >How do you know what's part of your "self", though? It seems to me that
> >people frequently give up smoking to keep a relationship going, or
> >gaming, or porn, or time on-line, or pets, or going out at night, or
> >career, or family of origin. Some of those people appear to be happy
> >with the trade-off and some are later quite resentful. What criteria can
> >one use to decide "this is too important to give up"?
>
> I think I'm an empiricist about this kind of thing. I know now
> that when I gave up certain stuff in past relationships, I had bad
> results.
I have had good (*) results. I think the reason for giving up the
behavior is important. I gave up quitting smoking for me, AND
for my relationships. I've recently given up saying "Okay?"
as a sort of way of saying "do you understand what I just said?"
because (a) one of my partners is disturbed by it, and (b) it is
an inefficient way of getting a yes or no to that question. It
serves me, personally, to do so, and it helps her. It costs me
nothing but making an effort, and causes me no resentment.
I would not give up my pet, however. It would not serve ME to do
so. I would not give up anything that would make me be resentful
to give up. In the long run, that would make things worse, not
better. I might be willing to try putting some things on hold, with
the knowledge that they are important parts of me, and I will get
back to them.
In short, I think one should never give up something one will feel
resentful over (in the long term, at least) to please a partner.
That way leads to passive aggressive manipulation.
* Good results may not be instant. I was no fun to be around when
I quit smoking. I'm suspicious that I'm still having side effects,
including chronic insomnia. All the same, there's no resentment.
heather e blair
[re: when is giving something up a good idea?]
>I have had good (*) results. I think the reason for giving up the
>behavior is important. I gave up quitting smoking for me, AND
>for my relationships. I've recently given up saying "Okay?"
>as a sort of way of saying "do you understand what I just said?"
>because (a) one of my partners is disturbed by it, and (b) it is
>an inefficient way of getting a yes or no to that question. It
>serves me, personally, to do so, and it helps her. It costs me
>nothing but making an effort, and causes me no resentment.
I think I'd think of this kind of change as change that is (as
you say) both good for me and good for the relationship. Maybe
it's even good for the relationship because it is good for me.
My examples of bad changes were more the ones I made when I
was younger for the sake of peace at home -- usually sacrificing
time and outside activities to the relationship because a partner
wanted me home more. (Or seemed upset when I was away.)
I didn't know how to tell whether the activity was important or
not important, nor how to tell the person "I love you, but
I still want to see my friends, go to music practice, whatever", or
what the effects of giving it up would be.
I gave up activities and felt a reduction in self-esteem, depression,
fatigue, increase in shyness, and ultimately, resentment.
>I would not give up my pet, however. It would not serve ME to do
>so. I would not give up anything that would make me be resentful
> to give up. In the long run, that would make things worse, not
>better. I might be willing to try putting some things on hold, with
>the knowledge that they are important parts of me, and I will get
>back to them.
How do you know what will make you feel resentful?
Obpoly: I also found that trying to be monogamous (in the strong
sense of not even *thinking* about outside partners), gave me the
same psychological bad results as giving up activities and time with
friends.
Stef Maruch
>I think I'm an empiricist about this kind of thing. I know now
>that when I gave up certain stuff in past relationships, I had bad
>results. Unlike Stef, my intuitions often suck, and unlike Lynn,
>I've adopted bad philosophies of life or values at times in my life,
>so I can't really rely on intuition or values to make this kind of
>judgement.
My intuition used to suck. I learned a technique that improved it.
I don't know if it would work for everyone, though.
(See articles on shamanism on my home page.)
--
Stef ** rational/scientific/philosophical/mystical/magical/kitty **
** st...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.bayarea.net/~stef **
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Andrew Weil claims to have met a number of people with benign paranoia,
who think that the universe is a conspiracy organized for their benefit.
-- Martha Koester
You see 'em in every street; usually with clipboards. -- Marc Wilson
Stef Maruch
>How do you know what will make you feel resentful?
What works for me is a thought experiment. I take some time to imagine
what life would be like with those circumstances. If I am not feeling
pressured and I'm in a neutral emotional state, then the feelings I am
likely to have will come up while I am in the process of the thought
experiment.
Evidence from doing a number of thought experiments suggests that if
these conditions are met, I can reasonably accurately identify what the
feelings will be. I can't necessarily peg how strong they will be.
--
Stef ** rational/scientific/philosophical/mystical/magical/kitty **
** st...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.bayarea.net/~stef **
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Pain never makes me cry, but happiness does
It's so strange to watch your life walk by
Wishing it was
Wishing it was more like a fantasy
Where every day surprises me -- Santana, "Wishing It Was" (_Supernatural_)
Marc Wilson
|I wonder how people who believe this explain the illnesses of
|infants and non-human animals. Is that cat living an immoral life?
Any cat *not* living an immoral life isn't trying hard enough!
--
Marc
"Remember- two wrongs don't make a right...but three lefts do"