Seems like Chickenhawk Cheney feels we're winning 'cause we're losing
Harry Hope
From The Chicago Tribune, 6/2/05:
http://fairuse.1accesshost.com/news2/trib10.html
The sobering reality of the Iraq war
by Steve Chapman
Suicide bombings have gained adherents not because so many fanatics
are looking for an excuse to throw away their lives, but because they
work
Watching the recent frenzy of violence in Iraq, Vice President Dick
Cheney is not perturbed.
Quite the contrary--he sounds practically elated.
"We're making major progress," he said Monday.
Iraq, he explained, is "in the last throes, if you will, of the
insurgency."
You know that secure, undisclosed location of his?
I think we can be sure it's not on this planet.
On the same day Cheney was savoring his delusions, suicide bombers
were striking in Iraq.
At least 25 people died and more than 100 were wounded when two
coordinated blasts went off amid a crowd of former police officers in
Hillah.
That incident came the day after a spate of suicide attacks killed at
least 16 people in Baghdad.
These were just the latest acts of carnage committed by enemies who
killed 670 Iraqis in May--nearly 22 per day.
That's on top of at least 76 American military deaths, a sharp
increase from the previous two months.
In Iraq, everything that should be rising is falling, and everything
that should be falling is rising.
Fatalities from car bombings and suicide bombings have soared fivefold
since November.
Attacks on U.S. forces have been running at 70 a day, double the rate
in March and April.
Iraqi government officials are the frequent target of assassinations
and abductions.
The governor of Anbar province, kidnapped May 10, was found dead
Tuesday.
There is an epidemic of death throes in Iraq, but the insurgency is
very much alive.
We are not seeing major progress, and despite the wishful thinking in
the White House, we aren't likely to anytime soon--if ever.
One reason is that we're fighting a new kind of war that our leaders
don't understand.
The administration depicts suicide bombings as a sign of desperation
by vicious thugs who know their cause is doomed.
In fact, they are part of a conscious strategy that has a record of
success in other places.
Suicide bombing has gained adherents not because so many fanatics are
looking for an excuse to throw away their lives, but because it works.
That's the conclusion of Robert Pape in his new book, "Dying to Win:
The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism."
Pape, director of the Chicago Project on Suicide Terrorism at the
University of Chicago, compiled a database of every suicide bombing
and attack in the world from 1980 to 2003.
What he discovered offers a sobering contrast to the optimistic
predictions emanating from Washington.
Americans have trouble imagining how the insurgents could hope to
succeed without any positive vision of Iraq's future--and for that
matter without any apparent agenda except slaughtering people.
But the core of their appeal is the same as that of most other suicide
bombing campaigns: nationalistic opposition to a foreign military
presence.
"From Hezbollah in Lebanon to Hamas on the West Bank to the Liberation
Tigers of Tamil Eelam in Sri Lanka," Pape writes, "every group
mounting a suicide campaign over the past two decades has had as a
major objective--or as its central objective--coercing a foreign state
that has military forces in what the terrorists see as their homeland
to take those forces out."
Even the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks were part of Al Qaeda's
longstanding effort to force the U.S. to withdraw its forces from
Saudi Arabia.
The Bush administration had the fond hope that the January elections
in Iraq would strike a crippling blow against the insurgents.
But the slaughter has continued unabated, which is not surprising.
In the first place, democracy is utterly irrelevant to the insurgents'
goal of ridding Iraq of foreign invaders.
And Pape notes that these campaigns are invariably aimed at democratic
governments, which are uniquely vulnerable to terrorism.
The dilemma the U.S. faces in fighting the insurgents is that military
methods are not enough to solve the problem and may make it worse.
If the movement is a reaction to the U.S. military presence, keeping
American troops in Iraq amounts to fighting a fire with kerosene.
That explains why the longer we stay, the more suicide attacks we
face.
And it suggests that the only feasible strategy is to withdraw from
Iraq and turn the fight over to the Iraqi government.
The alternative is to stay and keep doing what we've been doing for
the last two years.
But that approach has shown no signs of fostering success.
It only promises to raise the cost of failure.
______________________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War
"escalation of American military involvement came as the Johnson
administration and Westmoreland repeatedly assured the American public
that the next round of troop increases would bring victory. The
American public's faith in the "light at the end of the tunnel" was
shattered, however, on January 30, 1968, when the enemy, supposedly on
the verge of collapse, mounted the Tet Offensive in South Vietnam, in
which nearly every major city in South Vietnam was attacked. Although
neither of these offensives accomplished any military objectives, the
surprising capacity of an enemy that was supposedly on the verge of
collapse to even launch such an offensive convinced many Americans
that victory was impossible."
Harry
PagCal
Vietnam.
The Pretzel
PagCal
Of course, he'd be surrounded by 20,000 US troops providing protection,
and we wouldn't venture outside the green zone...
... so, I guess, from his point of view, all is well there.
Bishop@ontheboard.com Bishop
Only left-lib girly-boys would expect a man of Cheney's age, along
with a heart condition, to go into battle. Hypocrite lib pussies
seem to like this kind of BS.
The Pretzel
"Bishop" <The Bis...@OnTheBoard.Com> wrote in message
news:Q9Koe.24360$XA6....@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...
BS?? LOL!!! O'REALLY? Well Bishop Bopper,
let me tell ya. "5 deferments" Cheney would think of somthin' if it weren't for
his age and heart condition. ...I sure would like to hear his "brave" stance on
the matter from his "undisclosed-location".
Bishop@ontheboard.com Bishop
On 5-Jun-2005, "The Pretzel" <rold...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > Cheney should go to Iraq and say that!
> > >
> > > Of course, he'd be surrounded by 20,000 US troops providing protection,
> > > and we wouldn't venture outside the green zone...
> > >
> > > ... so, I guess, from his point of view, all is well there.
> >
> > Only left-lib girly-boys would expect a man of Cheney's age, along
> > with a heart condition, to go into battle. Hypocrite lib pussies
> > seem to like this kind of BS.
>
> BS?? LOL!!! O'REALLY? Well Bishop Bopper,
>
> let me tell ya. "5 deferments" Cheney would think of somthin' if it weren't for
> his age and heart condition. ...I sure would like to hear his "brave" stance on
> the matter from his "undisclosed-location".
Interesting pretzel head. Since you're so hep on military service,
when were you in girly-boy? I did my duty from 1966-1970, and
you ====> ?
The Pretzel
"Bishop" <The Bis...@OnTheBoard.Com> wrote in message
"other priorities". As you say, it's a "Volunteer army". I didn't volunteer.
So, what draft card number FORCED your ass over there in Vietnam, Bishop-bopper?
Too bad DICK wasn't around to help you along with a deferment (he could at least
give you one of his 5.) or get a medical deferment like another one of your
heroes like Anal-cyst Oxycontin Limbaugh...
a.. Bill Bennett - sought graduate school deferment, (too smart to die).
a.. Pat Buchanan -- sought deferment (for bad knee).
a.. Newt Gingrich -- sought graduate school deferment, (too smart to die).
a.. Phil Gramm -- sought marriage deferment, (too loved to die).
a.. Jack Kemp -- sought medical deferment (while playing in the NFL).
a.. Rush Limbaugh -- sought deferment (because of a cyst on his tail end).
a.. Dan Quayle -- Family got him into the Reserves.
a.. Pat Robertson -- his US Senator father got him out of Korea as soon as the
shooting began.
a.. Kenneth Starr -- sought deferment (for psoriasis).
a.. John Wayne -- sought deferment (to further acting career).
a.. George Will -- sought graduate school deferment, (too smart to die).
a.. Dick Cheney -- sought graduate school deferment, (too smart to die).
a.. George W. Bush -- used his family connections (what else is new?!?) to get
into the Air National Guard and then "deserted" his post for two years, but
still got an "Honorable Discharge".
I'm in good company, eh, asshole?
Bishop@ontheboard.com Bishop
On 5-Jun-2005, "The Pretzel" <rold...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I'm just like your Fuhrer and vice-Fuhrer... (I didn't go AWOL though.) I had
> "other priorities". As you say, it's a "Volunteer army". I didn't volunteer.
> So, what draft card number FORCED your ass over there in Vietnam, Bishop-bopper?
> Too bad DICK wasn't around to help you along with a deferment (he could at least
> give you one of his 5.) or get a medical deferment like another one of your
> heroes like Anal-cyst Oxycontin Limbaugh...
Ahhh....so we learn that pretzel dick was ALSO a chickenlib!!! LOL!!!!
Thought so. Sorry, enlisted asswipe. But you just keep on crabbing about
everyone else girly-boy...it fits you so. Deflection, the lib's main mouthing
arsenal.
PagCal
That means you're one of the ones that lost the Vietnam war.
And, with your brilliant mind, you're loosing another one in Iraq, it seems.
The Pretzel
"Bishop" <The Bis...@OnTheBoard.Com> wrote in message
>
> On 5-Jun-2005, "The Pretzel" <rold...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm just like your Fuhrer and vice-Fuhrer... (I didn't go AWOL though.) I
had
> > "other priorities". As you say, it's a "Volunteer army". I didn't
volunteer.
> > So, what draft card number FORCED your ass over there in Vietnam,
Bishop-bopper?
> > Too bad DICK wasn't around to help you along with a deferment (he could at
least
> > give you one of his 5.) or get a medical deferment like another one of your
> > heroes like Anal-cyst Oxycontin Limbaugh...
>
> Ahhh....so we learn that pretzel dick was ALSO a chickenlib!!! LOL!!!!
> Thought so. Sorry, enlisted asswipe.
Oh yeah...Uh-huh. Whatever. Another Rightard in a undisclosed location claiming
something that is irrelavent to the thread and mistakes me for someone who gives
a shit.
> But you just keep on crabbing about
> everyone else girly-boy..
Refering to the rest of my post you cut out without a *snip* coward?
a.. Bill Bennett - sought graduate school deferment, (too smart to die).
a.. Pat Buchanan -- sought deferment (for bad knee).
a.. Newt Gingrich -- sought graduate school deferment, (too smart to die).
a.. Phil Gramm -- sought marriage deferment, (too loved to die).
a.. Jack Kemp -- sought medical deferment (while playing in the NFL).
a.. Rush Limbaugh -- sought deferment (because of a cyst on his tail end).
a.. Dan Quayle -- Family got him into the Reserves.
a.. Pat Robertson -- his US Senator father got him out of Korea as soon as the
shooting began.
a.. Kenneth Starr -- sought deferment (for psoriasis).
a.. John Wayne -- sought deferment (to further acting career).
a.. George Will -- sought graduate school deferment, (too smart to die).
a.. Dick Cheney -- sought graduate school deferment, (too smart to die).
a.. George W. Bush -- used his family connections (what else is new?!?) to get
into the Air National Guard and then "deserted" his post for two years, but
still got an "Honorable Discharge".
They're you're "leaders and heroes" asshole. New to Usenet etiquette? Or is it
famous Rightarded bully bad-manners?
> it fits you so. Deflection, the lib's main mouthing
> arsenal.
Sorry asshole-coward. It is YOU who made this about me. As usual another Ad
Hominem attack from a Rightarded coward who claims he enlisted. Yeah, sure. We
all believe you and care...
;) *wink-wink...
Here's the rest of my post, coward.
I'm just like your Fuhrer and vice-Fuhrer... (I didn't go AWOL though.) I had
"other priorities". As you say, it's a "Volunteer army". I didn't volunteer.
So, what draft card number FORCED your ass over there in Vietnam, Bishop-bopper?
Too bad DICK wasn't around to help you along with a deferment (he could at least
give you one of his 5.) or get a medical deferment like another one of your
heroes like Anal-cyst Oxycontin Limbaugh...
a.. Bill Bennett - sought graduate school deferment, (too smart to die).
a.. Pat Buchanan -- sought deferment (for bad knee).
a.. Newt Gingrich -- sought graduate school deferment, (too smart to die).
a.. Phil Gramm -- sought marriage deferment, (too loved to die).
a.. Jack Kemp -- sought medical deferment (while playing in the NFL).
a.. Rush Limbaugh -- sought deferment (because of a cyst on his tail end).
a.. Dan Quayle -- Family got him into the Reserves.
a.. Pat Robertson -- his US Senator father got him out of Korea as soon as the
shooting began.
a.. Kenneth Starr -- sought deferment (for psoriasis).
a.. John Wayne -- sought deferment (to further acting career).
a.. George Will -- sought graduate school deferment, (too smart to die).
a.. Dick Cheney -- sought graduate school deferment, (too smart to die).
a.. George W. Bush -- used his family connections (what else is new?!?) to get
into the Air National Guard and then "deserted" his post for two years, but
still got an "Honorable Discharge".
I'm in good company, eh, asshole?
Back to the thread:
Bishop@ontheboard.com Bishop
Tell that to the vets in person and see the response you get.
Bishop@ontheboard.com Bishop
On 6-Jun-2005, "The Pretzel" <rold...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Ahhh....so we learn that pretzel dick was ALSO a chickenlib!!! LOL!!!!
> Oh?
>
> > Thought so. Sorry, enlisted asswipe.
> Oh yeah...Uh-huh. Whatever. Another Rightard in a undisclosed location claiming
> something that is irrelavent to the thread and mistakes me for someone who gives
> a shit.
a.. Pretzel-Dick -- never served (girly-boy)
The Pretzel
"Bishop" <The Bis...@OnTheBoard.Com> wrote in message
...and your proclamation that you did on Usenet isn't worth the wear and tear of
the phosphors on my screen. I'm honest.
Unlike your hero ***** 5! Deferments! Cheney and AWOL-deserter Shrub. Tell them
about how girly they are, ...coward.
TA-TA Mr. brave as yellow firewall Bishop-Bopper.
The Pretzel
"Bishop" <The Bis...@OnTheBoard.Com> wrote in message
We know how you Rightards treat veterans. Rightard filth...
http://www.democrats.org/blog/display/00010934.html
tom...@aol.com
How many engagements can you name in the Vietnam War that American
G.I.s lost?
There were many things wrong with the Vietnam War, but soldiering sure
as hell was not one of them.
Rich Travsky
Nobody said anything about going into battle...just going there.
RT
Rich Travsky
He's not holding national office and sending Americans to be killed and maimed.
RT
Rich Travsky
Tell us why we're going to have to be there for *years*...
RT
PagCal
The US Army reciently stated they don't see any significant troop
reductions for at least two years.
Cheney, for all his saber rattling, 'thought' we'd see some improvement
by the end of Bush's term in office.
The Iraqis themselves say they still need the Americans. (Why send your
own people out and die for their country when you can send the infidels
to die for your country?)
The history of Vietnam is replaying itself; leaders that are out of
touch with what's happening 'in country' and keep pooring in troops.
Bishop@ontheboard.com Bishop
On 7-Jun-2005, "The Pretzel" <rold...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > 66 to 70?
> > >
> > > That means you're one of the ones that lost the Vietnam war.
> > >
> > > And, with your brilliant mind, you're loosing another one in Iraq, it seems.
> >
> > Tell that to the vets in person and see the response you get.
>
> We know how you Rightards treat veterans. Rightard filth...
I am one you twit.
Bishop@ontheboard.com Bishop
On 7-Jun-2005, "The Pretzel" <rold...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> ...and your proclamation that you did on Usenet isn't worth the wear and tear of
> the phosphors on my screen. I'm honest.
So am I. USAF, AF11702563, 12/19/1966 to 12/19/1970. Inertial Guidance
Repair (Litton LN-12), F4-C, F4-D, and F4-E fighters. 385th Aero Squadron.
Kiss my ass girly-boy.
robw
Better get help.
"Bishop" <The Bis...@OnTheBoard.Com> wrote in message
news:Udrpe.23292$JX5....@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...
robw
Now sit down.
"Bishop" <The Bis...@OnTheBoard.Com> wrote in message
news:Ffrpe.23294$JX5....@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...
Bishop@ontheboard.com Bishop
On 7-Jun-2005, "robw" <nodd...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Thank yr for yr service.
>
> Now sit down.
I am sitting.
robw
Sitting.
And listening.
I prefer to be an activist.
Yr prefer to sit.
"Bishop" <The Bis...@OnTheBoard.Com> wrote in message
news:Zxspe.23305$JX5....@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...
Billy
drop the argument and begin the personal insults.
"robw" <nodd...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:dfydnXXgN9m...@comcast.com...
Billy
drop the argument and begin the personal insults.
"robw" <nodd...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:B4ednRGQipP...@comcast.com...
Billy
drop the argument and begin the personal insults.
"robw" <nodd...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:VpadnZRmcYl...@comcast.com...
cLIeNUX user
>You are losing it now, you have been caught lying, all you have left is to
>drop the argument and begin the personal insults.
>
This is what is known as an auto-reichsponse.
--
Rick (Richard Allen) Hohensee
write-in candidate, President of the United States of America
platform ftp://linux01.gwdg.de/pub/cLIeNUX/interim/platform2
personal webpage http://linux01.gwdg.de/~rhohen
active in Usenet alt.politics colorg on IRC
humb...@smart.net Maryland, USA
Ground troops out of Iraq Put the CIA under INS Save Darfur
Semi-legalize drugs Prosecute Bush Tighten the borders
Isolate Israel Tax churches halve military aquisitions
government jobs for Iraq-wounded soldiers and 9-11 survivors
please email my platform to friends, blogs and countrymen
-------------------------------------------------------------
Eraq
We 'won the battle but lost the war'? Yeah, that's a great argument.
As far as our troops go, they are good at killing the enemy and, with
bad leadership, killing civilians, too. We'll be seeing a lot more of
the systemic prison abuses soon -- our troops have a moral obligation
to refuse orders that are immoral. No excuses.
STOP_George
WEEKEND BREAKTHROUGH WITH MSM ON DOWNING STREET MINUTES!!
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/6/18/131144/051
Can you say "Impeach"?
---------------------------
tom...@aol.com
Let's see Eraq. In the midst of a discussion in which one poster list
his service in Vietnam in response to another's alegations of his being
a Chicken Hawk, he is then told tauntingly that he is one of "those"
who lost the Vietnam war. I mention that there were a lot of things
wrong with the Vietnam War (take you pick, and feel free to add a few):
a) Ho Chi Mihn was more popular in South Vietnam than any South
Vietnamese leader ever was.
b) The roots of the Vietnamese Civil War lay in a genuine independenc
movement geared towards throwing off outside domination.
c) The Vietnamese had been fighting, and winning, wars of attrician
against outsiders for three decades, starting with Japan.
d) American politicians didn't have the guts to even call it a war,
instead using the "Gulf of Tonkin" resolution as the basis for the
"Police Action"
e) An anti-war movement at home that, while inclusive of a great many
legitimately outraged Americans, was also chock full of every
communist, anarchist and other anti-American wanting to see America
fail (regarless of whether or not the war was legitimate).
I mention that the loss was NOT the fault of the G.I.'s, who won every
single engagement (I noticed you forgot to offer a response to that
question), and you take it as an opportunity to extend the cheapness of
the earlier poster's response even further by suggesting these soldiers
(primarily draftees) were somehow responsible for calling a halt to the
war itself.
All I can say is thank God clowns like you weren't running the show
during World War II. You would have been lecturing us on morality and
prison conditions until every Jew, Gypsy, Pole, Ukrainian, or any other
group in Hitler's way had been exterminated, and "Fortress Europe"
would have included England as well.
You and I likely share the same disgust a the corporate usurption of
the intentionally nebulously titled "War on Terror", however, it does
not come as a knee jerk reaction to anything done by the U.S. military
as yours would appear to do.
Larry Hewitt
"Billy" <neve...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:Zw8te.1825$Lr4.1753@fed1read03...
> You are losing it now, you have been caught lying, all you have left is to
> drop the argument and begin the personal insults.
>
Another rightard with nothing substantive to say who falls back on repeated
posting of the same mantra.
Sheesh.
Larry
Eraq
I agree with you that the loss was not the fault of how our guys did
their job, that's why I didn't mention it.
> All I can say is thank God clowns like you weren't running the show
> during World War II. You would have been lecturing us on morality and
> prison conditions until every Jew, Gypsy, Pole, Ukrainian, or any other
> group in Hitler's way had been exterminated, and "Fortress Europe"
> would have included England as well.
>
Clowns like me DID run the show in WWII. Perhaps you've heard of one:
FDR. If we were runnhing the show NOW the US would be more respected
and less reviled than it is right now, and we'd be winning our
conflicts.
tom...@aol.com
O.K., I read it differently, but am cool with the clarification.
Vietnam vet's have taken enough of beating already and I just hate
seeing them get jumped on.
>
>
> > All I can say is thank God clowns like you weren't running the show
> > during World War II. You would have been lecturing us on morality and
> > prison conditions until every Jew, Gypsy, Pole, Ukrainian, or any other
> > group in Hitler's way had been exterminated, and "Fortress Europe"
> > would have included England as well.
> >
> Clowns like me DID run the show in WWII. Perhaps you've heard of one:
> FDR. If we were runnhing the show NOW the US would be more respected
> and less reviled than it is right now, and we'd be winning our
> conflicts.
If you mean that FDR was not being guided by a handfull of greedy
corporate servants, you are right. What I was referring to was the
attitude amongst those who stepped up to serve. It's one of the risks
when you live in a constitutional democracy, that you have to be
willing to put your life in the hands of those who are elected in order
for that democracy to survive in a hostile world. Unfortunately that
good faith is sometimes not reciprocated by those in power. We are
watching what Eisenhower called the "Military Industrial Complex"
personified right before our collective eyes.