The Jewish Talmud Explains it

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Daylight

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May 15, 2002, 4:04:29 PM5/15/02
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"DGVREIMAN" <dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<H4iE8.859$D41....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
> "Alec Owen" <ao...@phaedrav.com> wrote in message
> news:3ce1a496$1...@audacity.velocet.net...
> > >
>
> I find it amazing that *millions* of Muslims actually believe
> these passages,
>
> Doug Grant (Tm)

I also find it amazing that ALL Jews believe in the following Talmud
passages. http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/talmud.htm (bookmark this
link for you, your family and friends)

=== Jews May Lie to Non-Jews ===
Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies to circumvent a Gentile (Any
non-Jew is a Gentile).

=== It is OK to Fuck Little Girls and Boys ===
Sanhedrin 54b. A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is
less than nine years old.
Kethuboth 11b. "When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl
it is nothing."

=== Non-Jews are animals ===
Yebamoth 98a. All Gentile children are animals.

=== Hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God ===
Sanhedrin 58b. If a Gentile hits a Jew, the Gentile must be killed.
Hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God. (This could be the reason
for the jews for using the word anti-semitic as a wildcard against
anybody criticize them for the evil they do. They believe they have a
super status above all non jews.)

=== It's O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews ===
Sanhedrin 57a. A Jew need not pay a Gentile the wages owed him for
work.

=== Jews May Rob, Steal and Kill Non-Jews ===
Baba Mezia 24a. If a Jew finds an object lost by a Gentile it does not
have to be returned.
Sanhedrin 57a. When a Jew murders a Gentile, there will be no death
penalty. What a Jew steals from a Gentile he may keep.
Baba Kamma 37b. Gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God
has "exposed their money to Israel."

There are so many 'Good' instructions in Talmud for the Jews. Just
visit the link above to learn more.

> The Koran is
> saying that Christians and Jews are fine if they "convert" and
> start believing in Allah, NOT Jehovah. If not, the passages
> below say very specifically that all that do not covert must be
> killed.
> > > Doug Grant (Tm)

It is no surprise to see a filthy Jew like this dog twisting Koran
verses to confuse people. If what you are saying is true, then how
come those millions of Christians could survive in Moslem countries
over the years. In Egypt alone there are more than 5 million
Christians. In Lebanon more than half of the population are
Christians, and Millions in many other countries. It is only in the
evil state of Israel that no one has legal rights except Jews. Has it
ever happened that a non-Jew occupied a high state post in this
country? Never of course. All non jews are animals and don't deserve
it according to the jewish talmud.

Islam has never forced anybody to convert. The largest Moslem country
is Indonesia, those people of Indonesia converted to Islam without any
war. They just converted by themselves. The same thing goes for
Malaysia and many others.

Moslems have ruled India for over a thousand year. If Moslems were
killing everybody doesn't convert to Islam, there wouldn't a single
Hindu in India today.

Again, it is not a surprise to see Jews twisting the truth, this what
they have learned from their filthy Talmud and this what they are
practicing on daily bases.

Anyway, it is not the Jews to blame. These dirty people don't deserve
any attention. The blame is on Britain that made the shity state
Israel and the blame is on the US that keeps it alive. Since when the
Jews could make a country of their own. Something they failed to do it
over 3000 years, what magic they got in the 1940s to let them make it.

The time will come for those filthy people to be thrown in the sea.
Saddam Husain is about to finish making his nuclear bomb. The first
test will be in Tel Aviv. One bomb and the evil state of Israel is off
the world map. What a coincidence? The man who destroyed the first
state of Israel 3000 years ago was Nabookhadnaser, the king of Iraq in
that time. And the second man who is going to destroy the second state
of Israel (The Second Kingdom of God) is also from Iraq. What a great
history they are making in killing the Jews. But let me tell you this.
Saddam is gonna be much worse than Nabookhadnaser. This is no guess.
It is based on historical events. Whenever somebody comes and kill the
jews, it just happened that he is worse than the one before. So this
time Saddam must kill the Jews in such a way that nobody has ever
thought of. Good luck.

Sicada

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May 15, 2002, 4:07:57 PM5/15/02
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Damm dudlight escaped again some one should have a talk to the people at the funny farm.

DGVREIMAN

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May 15, 2002, 5:17:53 PM5/15/02
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"Daylight" <daylig...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:70ceae71.02051...@posting.google.com...
Doug Says: HAHAHAHA. You are pretty funny when you foam at the
mouth. Listen "Abdullah" all of the passages you posted above
have absolutely nothing to do with this issue. The issue is the
Koran is preaching the murder of all other faiths and that if a
Muslim does it, that Muslim will go to paradise. But the most
salient point are those murderous passages are being taught this
very day to innocent children!

In respect to the Jewish faith, I don't know if the passages you
listed are being taught today or not. I am not Jewish so there
is no way I would know. But, regardless, although the passages
above are reprehensible to me, they do not advocate the murder of
all other faiths.

I also listed the obvious fact that many Muslims do not subscribe
to these murderous passages from the Koran, but many do. Also, I
believe Christians exist in Islam at the grace of Islam. But I
wonder how many Christians live peacefully in Muslim theocratic
states like Iran, and Yemen and such? We know that a terrible
civil war occurred in Lebanon over this very issue, that is when
all of the Muslims tried to murder all of the Christians. (Using
Lebanon is not a very good example of how Muslims do not try to
kill Christians.) In Egypt, that government is not a theocratic
government, and millions of Christian tourists fill the Egyptian
coffers. It is understandable why Christians might live in that
country.


> Islam has never forced anybody to convert. The largest Moslem
country
> is Indonesia, those people of Indonesia converted to Islam
without any
> war. They just converted by themselves. The same thing goes for
> Malaysia and many others.

Doug Says: Yep, they either converted or were killed or
ostracized. Just like the Taliban operated, just like the
Muslims in Lebanon operated. It is a crime even to try and teach
these people anything but Islam. So if they did not have a
choice, I guess they would choose the only choice they were
provided. Moreover, we all know the histories of Islam in these
countries. You either converted or you starved.


>
> Moslems have ruled India for over a thousand year. If Moslems
were
> killing everybody doesn't convert to Islam, there wouldn't a
single
> Hindu in India today.

Doug Says:

You are dreaming. Hindus run India. During the time the Muslims
were involved in India there was so much civil war (caused by
Muslims trying to kill, er "convert" Hindus that when the British
left two separate countries needed to be formed...India and
Pakistan....and they have been at war ever since with the
Muslim's (of course) as the agressors. In fact, out of the 38
wars or conflicts going on today in the world, 37 border or
involve the Muslim faith.

Your misreprestation that Islam is not trying to export its
radical religion is laughable. Recent history proves you
completely wrong.

> Again, it is not a surprise to see Jews twisting the truth,
this what
> they have learned from their filthy Talmud and this what they
are
> practicing on daily bases.

Doug Says:

Giggle. Dummy, look at my name. I am not Jewish. I am Catholic
and was raised a Catholic. Moreover, all of the Christians I
know agree with me on these issues. In addition, the Koran says
what it says, and those murderous passages are in use this very
day. You seem to think I am making up those passages, and all
the wars and terrorism the Muslims have been behind for the past
50 years. I did not write those murderous passages in the Koran,
and I am not the one teaching those murderous passages to
innocent children, and I am not the one exporting terrorism all
over the world. Whether you want to admit it or not, all those
things are being committed by radical Muslims.

> Anyway, it is not the Jews to blame. These dirty people don't
deserve
> any attention. The blame is on Britain that made the shity
state
> Israel and the blame is on the US that keeps it alive. Since
when the
> Jews could make a country of their own. Something they failed
to do it
> over 3000 years, what magic they got in the 1940s to let them
make it.
>

Doug Says:

Naw, you're not bigoted, no way. "Dirty people?" Try and
understand history for once. Look up the Ottoman Empire. Look
up what all the Arabs received when the mean ol British and
Americans divided up the Ottoman Empire. There would not be an
autonomous Arab state today if it was not for the British.

Doug Says: Naw, the Muslims don't want to kill anyone. Nope,
they "love" everyone, want everyone to live in peace in their
land. Sure they do. That is what this moron has been trying to
sell, then he gets to his real colors in the last paragraph.
Like I said, they are a murderous people following the dictates
of a murderous religion.

This twidledee just proved my point.

Also, if America stays the course, Saddam won't be around long
enough to use his "bomb."


Doug Grant (Tm)


зKе WхгKАо

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May 16, 2002, 2:21:19 AM5/16/02
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On Wed, 15 May 2002 21:17:53 GMT, "DGVREIMAN"
<dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>>
>Doug Says: HAHAHAHA. You are pretty funny when you foam at the
>mouth. Listen "Abdullah" all of the passages you posted above
>have absolutely nothing to do with this issue. The issue is the
>Koran is preaching the murder of all other faiths and that if a
>Muslim does it, that Muslim will go to paradise.

i think it had everything to do with the issue you raised, and the way
you raised it. definitely raises some serious questions if those
passages really exist. do they reiman?

oh, and if you didn't like his last paragraph, and i didn't...

you should listen real close, because it sounds just like you.

зKе WхгKАо

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May 16, 2002, 2:28:02 AM5/16/02
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On 15 May 2002 13:04:29 -0700, daylig...@yahoo.com (Daylight)
wrote:

about this last point...unless your aim has simply been to convince
the world of the need to depose this maniac as promptly as possible,
you are not helping your argument.

Daylight

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May 16, 2002, 5:27:46 AM5/16/02
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"DGVREIMAN" <dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<5gAE8.2355$D41.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

> "Daylight" <daylig...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:70ceae71.02051...@posting.google.com...
> > "DGVREIMAN" <dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:<H4iE8.859$D41....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
> > > "Alec Owen" <ao...@phaedrav.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3ce1a496$1...@audacity.velocet.net...

> The issue is the
> Koran is preaching the murder of all other faiths and that if a
> Muslim does it, that Muslim will go to paradise. But the most
> salient point are those murderous passages are being taught this
> very day to innocent children!

You dipshit are trying to spread false information by picking specific
passages without showing the whole picture.

This what the Koran says:

002.190: Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against
you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. (self
defense)

002.191: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of
the places whence they drove you out. (This applies on the jews, they
have driven the Palestinians out of there homeland and killed them.
The Palestinians must respond to it with whatever they got and kill
the jews wherever they find them)

And all other verses that encourage jihad are just like the 2 above.
If not mentioned directly in the same verse, it will be around it or
fits in one specific situation or enemy.

Now if you don't like this, unfortunately, all nations in the world
today do it. Whether it is written in a holy book or not, they
practice it and the UN gives the right to do it. This is the natural
law of life.

> In respect to the Jewish faith, I don't know if the passages you
> listed are being taught today or not.
> I am not Jewish

You are a fukin' jew

> so there is no way I would know.

But you could find a way locate the verses in the Koran and claimed
that muslems do kill non muslems for their relegion.

> But, regardless, although the passages
> above are reprehensible to me, they do not advocate the murder of
> all other faiths.

Sanhedrin 57a. When a Jew murders a Gentile, there will be no
death penalty. (To me this seems a direct instruction to kill non
jews)

>
> I also listed the obvious fact that many Muslims do not subscribe
> to these murderous passages from the Koran, but many do.

They all do. Just like all other people on the earth. When they are
being attacked, they have to fight the enemies and when their rights
are taken from them, they have to get them back.

All the reset of your post is meaningless. If it means something, it
means you know nothing. It isn't even worth to read it rather than to
respond to it.

vonroach

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May 16, 2002, 6:23:42 AM5/16/02
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A kid with no exposure to religion, sets out to proclaim him/herself
an expert. You are a joke.

vonroach

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May 16, 2002, 7:03:30 AM5/16/02
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On Thu, 16 May 2002 06:28:02 GMT, ?K? Wa?K??
<asky...@rebeloutpost.org> wrote:

>about this last point...unless your aim has simply been to convince
>the world of the need to depose this maniac as promptly as possible,
>you are not helping your argument.
>>The time will come for those filthy people to be thrown in the sea.
>>Saddam Husain is about to finish making his nuclear bomb. The first
>>test will be in Tel Aviv. One bomb and the evil state of Israel is off
>>the world map. What a coincidence? The man who destroyed the first
>>state of Israel 3000 years ago was Nabookhadnaser, the king of Iraq in
>>that time. And the second man who is going to destroy the second state
>>of Israel (The Second Kingdom of God) is also from Iraq. What a great
>>history they are making in killing the Jews. But let me tell you this.
>>Saddam is gonna be much worse than Nabookhadnaser. This is no guess.
>>It is based on historical events. Whenever somebody comes and kill the
>>jews, it just happened that he is worse than the one before. So this
>>time Saddam must kill the Jews in such a way that nobody has ever
>>thought of. Good luck.

You see a `point' to this fruitcake's antisemitic rant?
`Nabookhadnaser, king of Iraq' - the jackass has to be kidding.
His/her mind is out picking daisies in Babylon, or should I say
Babyland.

зKе WхгKАо

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May 16, 2002, 7:21:23 AM5/16/02
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On Thu, 16 May 2002 10:23:42 GMT, vonr...@ix.netcom.com (vonroach)
wrote:

please state for the group, for the record, that you and reiman are
not the same sore bitter twisted wheelchair ridden fool (nothing
against people with normal disabilities).....

i just can't believe there is 2 times as much stupidity as you 'two'
represent. there, you've brought me to your level. happy?

зKе WхгKАо

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May 16, 2002, 7:50:59 AM5/16/02
to
On Thu, 16 May 2002 11:03:30 GMT, vonr...@ix.netcom.com (vonroach)
wrote:

>`Nabookhadnaser, king of Iraq' - the jackass has to be kidding.
>His/her mind is out picking daisies in Babylon, or should I say
>Babyland.

his worst makes your best look like a soggy leather dog chew-toy.

c'mon vonroach....what you and reiman are offering has already been
done, far better, and much more colorfully by keith boadwee....

i'm sure you've heard of him, since you model your usenet existance on
his art:
http://www.fraudband.org/gettingit/article/284

Che'Gu Maru

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May 16, 2002, 10:56:03 AM5/16/02
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"Daylight" <daylig...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > I also find it

amazing that ALL Jews believe in the following Talmud
> passages. http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/talmud.htm (bookmark this
> link for you, your family and friends)
>
Sometimes you ought to really check primary sources instead of believing all
the nonsense you read on the Internet. Those quotes you so blithely cite
are either fabrications or taken so far out of context as to turn their
original meaning around.

Get up off your ass, go to a good college library, and find a copy of the
Talmud in English translation. Then since, we are talking about a set of
books nearly as large as the Encyclopedia Britannica, take a good two or
three months researching the passages cited. .....

Of course, that's too much mental work for most racists and bigots who are
braindead to begin with.


Daylight

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May 16, 2002, 2:51:08 PM5/16/02
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?K? W??? <asky...@rebeloutpost.org> wrote in message news:<t1d6euona86b7clds...@4ax.com>...

> On 15 May 2002 13:04:29 -0700, daylig...@yahoo.com (Daylight)
> wrote:
>
> >"DGVREIMAN" <dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<H4iE8.859$D41....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
> >> "Alec Owen" <ao...@phaedrav.com> wrote in message
> >> news:3ce1a496$1...@audacity.velocet.net...
> >>
> >>
> >
>
> about this last point...unless your aim has simply been to convince
> the world of the need to depose this maniac as promptly as possible,
> you are not helping your argument.


See friend, first of all I do not have Saddam agenda, I don't know if
he is working on a nuclear bomb and I don't know if he has any plan to
attack Israel. But if you ask me whether the jews in Israel deserve
such type of genocide, I say yes.

You may argue this point. Well, put it in this way. Suppose that
somebody came to you from no where and occupied your house, the only
house you have for yourself and your family. Naturally, you will try
to defend your house. You tried but failed. Then you decided to go to
court, hopping the court will return your rights. All the court has
done is just requesting that thief, very politely, to give you a small
bedroom in that house. You have no other choice, you accepted it. But
that criminal didn't leave you alone. He just kept jumping on you,
from time to time, killing your children and stealing your money. So
what will you do? I suggest you call them all, the thief and his
family. If you are going to die anyway, take your enemies with you.

Now if that thief complains that he has been attacked, the natural
response by people should be 'What are you doing their?, that is not
your place.' This is not happening, they blame the victim and excuse
the criminal. It is a mess. So let be a real mess then. What else you
are going to lose.

This is my opinion anyway.

DGVREIMAN

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May 16, 2002, 3:24:21 PM5/16/02
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"§K¥ Wå£K?®" <asky...@rebeloutpost.org> wrote in message
news:gtc6eugr9m43r8qjs...@4ax.com...

Doug Says:

No No Sky Walker: First of all the passages he posted had
nothing to do with the Koran passages. No "murder" was involved
in respect to murdering everyone that disagrees with the Koran.
You need to stick with the issue. I asked you to find where any
Christian was ordered to murder people just because they were of
another faith. You cannot find any such passages because none
exist. However, since you and others seem to feel ashamed of
these passages in the Koran, please allow me to defend them for
you:

I do realize that each respective religion is competitive with
the other. When the Koran was written by Arab scribes (not by
Mohammad as he was illiterate) it was written about 600 years
after the Bible's New Testament and about 5600 years after the
beginning of the old testament. Islam was a new religion,
competitive with the Jewish religion in its region and very
necessary for the continuation of the Arab culture.

Moreover, the Koran is replete with dictating who is a prophet of
god and who is not. During the time the Koran was being written,
just about every Arab leader declared himself a "prophet of God
and it took many intra Arab wars to determine which victor would
be able to maintain that "claim."

Then along the same lines, the "murder passages" were entered
into the Koran to kill everyone that does not believe in the
Koran for very good reasons: That way the Islam and the
"prophet" could demand continued allegiance by all those he
conquered and never be usurped by any other religion. Kings,
Potentates and Tyrants all fear religion. Many have
historically started their own religion, thrown out the religion
that was trying to usurp their power, and placed themselves at
the head of the church or religion. (Church of England as an
example when the English Monarchy became at odds with the Pope.)

Obviously what the Arab leaders were trying to accomplish with
the aggressive Koran passages was to not allow the culture of the
Jews or Christians change or usurp their Arab culture and the
Arab leader's power base.

At that time, their very survival as a culture depended upon the
insertion of these essentially defensive passages into the Koran.
The Jews and Christians were encroaching on the Arab culture, and
at that time, both of these religions were very aggressive in war
to force various cultures under the banner of Christendom. The
Crusades alone would be enough to warrant such passages in the
Koran. The Arabs did not invade Europe. Europe invaded the
Middle East, several times! I believe these passages in
question were meant more for defensive than offense. And the
Arabs had good reason to need a good defense considering all of
those European invasions.

Another factor to consider is exactly when these passages in the
Koran were written. There is a question whether they were
involved in the initial 740 A.D. version, or were added later
after the first Crusade.

I do not believe any passages in the Koran are something to be
hidden from Muslims, or dismissed, or explained away. I believe
these passages should be discussed and their specific purpose
identified. Only then can everyone understand these passages
were not meant for today's world.

Regardless of what anyone wants to claim, neither the Bible nor
the Koran were written by God. They were written by men. Men
with the same hopes, dreams and fears of all men. And the same
prejudices. Religion is a way to control people, maintain power,
and give people hope that something is better than their puny
existence. A dream of dreams. Is it true? Some of it is, and
some of it is not.

The passages that were quoted from the Talmud are passages I had
heard about but never personally read. Are they in force today?
I suspect for some of the more radical Jewish sects they are
literal, and are practiced. But those radical sects only
represent less than 1% of all Jews. Moreover, these sects are
not using obsolete passages from their Talmud to kill people.
(Although I suspect there may be some exceptions to that
statement.)

Yet the tyrants and criminals in Islam have dredged up these old,
tired and obsolete passages from the Koran to convince those that
are stupid enough to listen to kill themselves and others simply
because the others have a different faith. It is not as if the
Koran is instructing this murder, it is more as if the tyrants
are *exploiting* the belief in Islam to generate zealots that
will murder and do their other criminal bidding.

I have tried to explain my position. I frankly thought all
Muslims that were not zealots would agree with me.

Second, he sounds nothing like me. Where have I ever advocated
using a Nuclear weapon preemptively to destroy Iraq? If however,
Iraq would use one first, then I doubt if anything would be left
of Iraq, Iran, or North Korea other than a greasy spot. (I
assure you that we would not launch a nuclear retaliatory attack
against just one enemy and allow its allies the opportunity to
retaliate. If we push the bottom it will be against all enemies
simultaneously.)

What that moron was talking about was a suicide type attack with
a nuclear weapon against America, which will of course, prompt a
nuclear response from America. Now that is about as stupid as it
gets. Iraq should just surrender, allow free elections, and
survive. The same goes for the Palestinians. I assure you they
will never win if they escalate this conflict into a full scale
war.

The pragmatic solution to end the killing is for one side to
conquer the other. The strong will always win in the end when
weapons and a military are the means to resolve differences. And
if all the strong is wants from the weak is to (1) hold free
elections (2) stop trying to amass weapons of mass destruction to
use aggressively against the rest of the world (3) stop the
corruption....then the choice for the weak is obvious. (Just ask
the Russians if you don't agree.)

Moreover, the civilized world has a right to defend itself
against people like Saddam. The Iraqi people should understand
that, and get rid of him so there will not be any war. And I
sincerely believe the Palestinian people should do the same with
Terrorfat.

Enough is enough Sky Walker. It is time for these violent and
murderous dictators to free their people and exit the world
stage.

Doug Grant (Tm)


vonroach

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May 16, 2002, 4:25:45 PM5/16/02
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Can't keep up nerdboy?

vonroach

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May 16, 2002, 4:46:54 PM5/16/02
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Your insults are no longer relevant, cloud hopper. You are mouthing
phrases and drifting into a schizoid state.

vonroach

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May 16, 2002, 4:50:12 PM5/16/02
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On 16 May 2002 11:51:08 -0700, daylig...@yahoo.com (Daylight)
wrote:

>See friend, first of all I do not have Saddam agenda, I don't know if
>he is working on a nuclear bomb and I don't know if he has any plan to
>attack Israel. But if you ask me whether the jews in Israel deserve
>such type of genocide, I say yes.

You should make some attempt at living with your neighbor, you
pathetic palestinian extremist.

DGVREIMAN

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May 16, 2002, 8:10:32 PM5/16/02
to

"Daylight" <daylig...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:70ceae71.02051...@posting.google.com...
> "DGVREIMAN" <dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:<5gAE8.2355$D41.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>..


Doug Says:

I am spreading false information? All I did was quote the
passages the Mullahs are using to teach the kids to murder. And
the passages that are being used to teach the kids to kill
themselves while they are murdering other kids.

Also, the Jews never drove the Palestenians out of anywhere. The
League of Nations, the Egyptians and the Jordanians did that.
Please read some history!


> And all other verses that encourage jihad are just like the 2
above.
> If not mentioned directly in the same verse, it will be around
it or
> fits in one specific situation or enemy.
>
> Now if you don't like this, unfortunately, all nations in the
world
> today do it. Whether it is written in a holy book or not, they
> practice it and the UN gives the right to do it. This is the
natural
> law of life.

Doug Says: Murdering people just becuase the are of another
faith is not "the natural law of life." And the UN certainly
does not sanction sucide bombings, murders and genocide based
upon faith. You are delusional if you believe otherwise.

Here are the passages again, which make my point. They are not
taken out of context, the entire passage is provided, and they
speak for themselves. Your denial of the obvious is not credible
nor convincing. These passages do not all deal with someone
taking someone's homeland, as they clearly state:


Koran Explains It


The Koran has many passages. Most dealing with social life, laws
and directions. More social than spiritual. If a Believer goes
to Mosque, has no other opportunity to read conflicting writings,
(or cannot read) and has been raised to believe in Allah and that
Mohammed is his Prophet, and that the Mullahs and the Mosque
knows all, then the following passages will hold sway over every
aspect of the Muslim's life.


THE FOLLOWING PASSAGES APPLY TO KILLING ALL UNBELIEVERS, MAN,
WOMAN AND CHILD:

The Cow
[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them
out from whence
they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter,
and do not
fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you
in it, but if
they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of
the unbelievers.

The Women
[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have
disbelieved, so
that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among
them friends
until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn
back, then seize
them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from
among them a
friend or a helper.

4.91] You will find others who desire that they should be safe
from you and
secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to
the mischief
they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not
withdraw from you,
and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then
seize them and
kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have
given.you a clear
authority.

The following applies to all Jews and Christians, Man, Woman and
Child:


[4.160] Wherefore for the iniquity of those who are Jews did We
disallow to
them the good things which had been made lawful for them and
for their
hindering many (people) from Allah's way.

[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians
for friends;
they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes
them for a
friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not
guide the unjust
people.

[5.64] And the Jews say: The hand of Allah is tied up! Their
hands shall be
shackled and they shall be cursed for what they say. Nay, both
His hands are
spread out, He expends as He pleases; and what has been
revealed to you from
your Lord will certainly make many of them increase in
inordinacy and
unbelief; and We have put enmity and hatred among them till the
day of
resurrection; whenever they kindle a fire for war Allah puts it
out, and they
strive to make mischief in the land; and Allah does not love
the
mischief-makers.

The Immunity
[9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the
Christians say:
The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their
mouths; they
imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah
destroy them;
how they are turned away!

The Dinner Table
[5.14] And with those who say, We are Christians, We made a
covenant, but they
neglected a portion of what they were reminded of, therefore We
excited among
them enmity and hatred to the day of resurrection; and Allah
will inform them
of what they did.

The Dinner Table
[5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and
His apostle and
strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they
should be murdered
or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on
opposite sides
or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for
them in this
world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous
chastisement,

The Clans
[33.61] Cursed: wherever they are found they shall be seized
and murdered, a
(horrible) murdering.

[18.4] And warn those who say: Allah has taken a son.

THE FOLLOWING APPLIES TO THE MURDER-SUICIDE BOMBERS:

The Family of Imran

[3.169] And reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as
dead; nay, they
are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord;

The Poets
[26.3] Perhaps you will kill yourself with grief because they
do not believe.

THE FOLLOWING APPLIES TO ONE MUSLIM NATION ATTACKING ANOTHER:

[4.92] And it does not behoove a believer to kill a believer
except by
mistake, and whoever kills a believer by mistake, he should
free a believing
slave, and blood-money should be paid to his people unless they
remit it as
alms; but if he be from a tribe hostile to you and he is a
believer, the
freeing of a believing slave (suffices), and if he is from a
tribe between
whom and you there is a convenant, the blood-money should be
paid to his
people along with the freeing of a believing slave; but he who
cannot find (a
slave) should fast for two months successively: a penance from
Allah, and
Allah is Knowing, Wise.

[4.93] And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his
punishment is hell; he
shall abide in it, and Allah will send His wrath on him and
curse him and
prepare for him a painful chastisement.


End of Koran Excerpts:

Doug's Comments:

The representation that when the Palestinians have their own
state, and Israel has withdrawn, then the attacks on the Israelis
and Americans will stop, is preposterous. It is clear these
radical Muslims are at war with everyone but themselves. They
will simply bide their time until they have weapons of mass
destruction, and then start using those weapons to kill even
more Christians and Jews, and Hindus and anyone not a
Muslim...Mad Dogs Loose On the World...with Nukes. Think about
it. Then call or write your Congressman and urge him/her to
prosecute this war against Terrorism to its successful completion
as fast as possible.

> > In respect to the Jewish faith, I don't know if the passages
you
> > listed are being taught today or not.
> > I am not Jewish
>
> You are a fukin' jew

Doug Says: Now calm down for a minute. Don't you think that I
know what religion I follow? If I were a Jew I would be proud to
be a Jew, if I were a Muslim I would be proud to be a Muslim, if
I were a Hindu, I would be proud to be a Hindu, but I am not any
of those. I am a Christian, born a Christian and I will die a
Christian. On top of that I am a Catholic Christian, and I was
born a Catholic Christian and I will die a Catholic Christian.
My wife (who is from Sligo County Ireland) is also a Catholic
Christian, all of my children are Catholic Christians, and all
their children. Now it really does not make any difference what
religion I am, or what religion you are. The truth is the truth.
You need to accept it even if you do not want to do so.

> > so there is no way I would know.
>
> But you could find a way locate the verses in the Koran and
claimed

> that muslems do kill non muslems for their religion.

Doug Says: Of course, anyone can find those passages because
they are real, they exist and they are being used to indoctrinate
children to kill people simply because they are of another faith.
The Muslim schools are using these very passages to inject venom
in children as young as 3 or 4, and the Palestinian leadership
and their related Mullahs are convincing Palestinian children to
murder themselves along with other children with these very
passages. Now if you think otherwise then you are not a Muslim.


>
> > But, regardless, although the passages
> > above are reprehensible to me, they do not advocate the
murder of
> > all other faiths.
>
> Sanhedrin 57a. When a Jew murders a Gentile, there will be no
> death penalty. (To me this seems a direct instruction to kill
non
> jews)

Doug Says:

This passage is clearly talking about crime and punishment.
Where does it tell anyone to go out and kill people? In fact, if
you bother to read the Ten Commandments, it specifically states
that "Thou Shall Not Kill." The premise of these crimes and
punishment passages were that Jews would never break their faith
by killing unless they were forced to do so. However, we all
know these passages are not being used today, and have not be
used for thousands of years. However, the passages in the Koran
are being used this very day as justification to murder people
simply because they are of another faith.

Take the case of Danny Pearl as an example. What did he do to
anyone? He was simply a Jew. And they killed him for it.


>
> >
> > I also listed the obvious fact that many Muslims do not
subscribe
> > to these murderous passages from the Koran, but many do.
>
> They all do. Just like all other people on the earth. When they
are
> being attacked, they have to fight the enemies and when their
rights
> are taken from them, they have to get them back.

Doug Says:

When the goons attacked the WTC on 9/11 who there was attacking
them? What were the names of the thousands of innoncent people
simply working at their desks that were attacking the cowards
that murdered them?


>
> All the reset of your post is meaningless. If it means
something, it
> means you know nothing. It isn't even worth to read it rather
than to
> respond to it.
>

> Doug Says:

Right. That is why all of you Muslims seem to be going crazy
over a simple post that contains truthful passages from the
Koran.

зKе WхгKАо

unread,
May 16, 2002, 11:21:33 PM5/16/02
to
On Thu, 16 May 2002 20:25:45 GMT, vonr...@ix.netcom.com (vonroach)
wrote:

>Can't keep up nerdboy?

do you >have< other posts in which you're not heckling?

зKе WхгKАо

unread,
May 16, 2002, 11:23:08 PM5/16/02
to
ok vonreiman

DGVREIMAN

unread,
May 17, 2002, 12:19:44 AM5/17/02
to

"§K¥ Wå£K?®" <asky...@rebeloutpost.org> wrote in message
news:brm8euci1g2g0rsck...@4ax.com...
> ok vonreiman

Actually, Sky Walker, that is pretty funny but you do not know
why.

Doug Grant (Tm)


зKе WхгKАо

unread,
May 17, 2002, 12:22:20 AM5/17/02
to
On Thu, 16 May 2002 20:50:12 GMT, vonr...@ix.netcom.com (vonroach)
wrote:

your word palette is limited to 5 words........roachman.

pathetic
jackass
boring
little
kid.

i have distilled your essense from your posts.

vonroach

unread,
May 17, 2002, 7:03:36 AM5/17/02
to
On Fri, 17 May 2002 03:23:08 GMT, ?K? Wa?K??
<asky...@rebeloutpost.org> wrote:

>ok vonreiman
troll twerp resigns, and hopefully returns to school although
addiction to ease his wounded megalomania seems more likely.

vonroach

unread,
May 17, 2002, 7:08:07 AM5/17/02
to

Poor child can't differentiate `heckling' from adult instruction,
perhaps he's/she's never had any before.

vonroach

unread,
May 17, 2002, 7:47:57 AM5/17/02
to
On Fri, 17 May 2002 04:22:20 GMT, ?K? Wa?K??
<asky...@rebeloutpost.org> wrote:

>your word palette is limited to 5 words........roachman.
>
>pathetic
>jackass
>boring
>little
>kid.

That is more than enough to deal with one of your ilk.

Daylight

unread,
May 17, 2002, 11:24:18 AM5/17/02
to
"DGVREIMAN" <dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<YTXE8.20121$D41.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

> "Daylight" <daylig...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:70ceae71.02051...@posting.google.com...
> > "DGVREIMAN" <dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:<5gAE8.2355$D41.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>..
> .
> > > "Daylight" <daylig...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:70ceae71.02051...@posting.google.com...
> > > > "DGVREIMAN" <dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> > >
> news:<H4iE8.859$D41....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
> > > > > "Alec Owen" <ao...@phaedrav.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3ce1a496$1...@audacity.velocet.net...
> >

Usually when you see somebody taking phrases out of context and
interpret sentences to serve his evil purpose, you know that he is NOT
an honest person. It is just a waste of time to keep arguing with him.
This ugly idiot whose name is Doug fits in this category. Usually when
I see somebody like that, I try to look at his history. I searched
Google to see his previous posts. One of the posts I found has the
title 'Palestinians Say Kill Americans', dated Mar. 11, 2002. He
copied the article from a url and he intentionally omitted the first
three paragraphs of the article. It is clear that he doesn't want to
show the whole story. Only the parts that serves his evil purpose. In
other words, he is not an honest person. Somebody whose identity in
the newsgroups was 'cobblers' responded to him and asked him for the
purpose of omitting the first three paragraphs of the article, but he
failed to reply. The evil doesn't last long.

This is part of the response:
< cobblers>
The first three paragraphs of the translation were left out of your
posting. Introductions usually set the tone for what follows. Why were
they omitted? Was it an error? Was it connected with the fact that
they all refer to the killing of Palestinians by Israelis?
</ cobblers>

And this is the link to the article:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&threadm=u8qm9k3n052u59%40corp.supernews.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fselm%3Du8qm9k3n052u59%2540corp.supernews.com


If somebody found laying once, he cannot be trusted anymore.

Sta...@truth.com

unread,
May 18, 2002, 4:45:31 AM5/18/02
to
On Thu, 16 May 2002 19:24:21 GMT, "DGVREIMAN"
<dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Heyia Doug;

The first half of your commentary explaining the historical context of
the Koran was pretty sharp and well said, but then you completely lost
it when you fell back into the familiar right-wing creation of
justification for the 'war on terror' which ignores a whole plethora
of contradictions and factual observations; It is certain that you
like many others who fanatically defend the Bush Inc. campaign of
World Hegemony on behalf of a capitalistic oligarchy have more than a
passing familiarity with some of the compelling reasons why the
leftists, peace-advocates and liberals and intellectual-critics take
principled exception with that mainstream fantasy;

It's unlikely that anything said will persuade you to examine the
'evidence' in support of the official rationale designed for
mass-consumption, and which much of the US citizenry indeed has
faithfully swallowed, like the well-conditioned materialists and
consumers of propoganda which they are; But not EVERYBODY is as
dull-witted as the right-wing hawks and Bush Crew boosters think they
are, and more and more people every day are asking the hard questions
which the mainstream status-quo anti-liberal mass media, Republicans
and more servile Democrats have been diligently avoiding and trying to
discredit; The following information is NOT, therfore, exclusively for
your benefit, but for anyone tuning into this thread, for their
consideration;

Consider:
The "War on Terrorism" is indeed a fraud, as Australian film and print
journalist John Pilger has repeatedly pointed out. "Terrorism" is
simply taking the place of "Communism" during the Cold War as the
propaganda line spewed by the state and the corporate media to rally a
confused and fearful population against "enemies" who supposedly
threaten them. This most effective form of social control was
recommended by Hitler's chief propagandist, Josef Goebbels. The
purpose of the "War on Terrorism" is to maintain carte blanche for the
ever more desperate agenda of American capital: the domination of the
continent of Eurasia (the critical sector of which is Central Asia,
precisely where the "War on Terrorism" just happens to have begun),
and the crushing of the Left worldwide, especially its explicitly
anti-capitalist core.

In the face of this juggernaut the Left has shown a potentially fatal
lack of intellectual rigor as well as nerve. The evidence that the
attacks on September 11 were in all likelihood a black operation of
the US intelligence services, a state "provocation" designed as a
pretext to launch the global "War on Terrorism", is very substantial.
It is also painful to consider, but the task must not be shirked. The
purpose of this essay is to consider its relevance to the future of
the only force which holds any hope of saving humanity and the planet
from the megadeath capital is preparing, the anti-capitalist Left.

Shock, Propaganda And Paralysis
Four months after September 11, it appears that most of the Left is
asleep at the switch. Just about the only response has been the
"anti-war movement", which has been weak, especially in the U.S.,
where the propaganda barrage has successfully marshalled the bulk of
the population, including many leftists, into lockstep with their
masters' plans. In any case the movement hasn't stopped the "war" in
Afghanistan (really a one-sided attack against an essentially
defenseless target, not a war). Nor is there any reason to imagine
that it has frightened the Bush cabal from implementing plans to
unleash its death machine on any number of additional targets in the
future. US troops are massing in Kuwait and Qatar, in preparation for
an attack on Iraq, and "special operations" are underway already in
Yemen, Somalia, the Philippines and perhaps Sudan. Then there's
Colombia. . .Venezuela. . .Bolivia. . .Mexico, and these are just the
most obvious near-term objects of attention from the Sickos in
command.

It is probably safe to say that the anti-war sector of the US
population is almost entirely restricted to the left end of the
political spectrum. But today's Left is a truncated remnant of its
past self, both in size and in critical understanding. Much of it,
when hit by the double whammy of the events of 9/11 and the immediate
subsequent government and media propaganda assault, jumped right in
line behind our new Fuhrer. After all, "we" have been attacked! The
rump that is still anti-war has been pretty feeble, not so much in
terms of the number of demonstrators in the streets, but above all in
their acceptance of much of the elite's propaganda.

Most of the endless stream of "analysis" from the Left or
"progressive" side has centered on "terrorism", posing and answering
questions such as "what is terrorism?" or "why do they hate us?" For
example, the "Marxist" Tariq Ali's critique of events amounts to
pointing out the ineffectiveness of the US military assault as a
method of eliminating terrorism. His main conclusion seems to be that
the US rulers are really dumb; anybody with half a brain can see that
the attack in Afghanistan will only breed more terrorists! It never
occurs to him that maybe they're not dumb, but have a different
purpose in mind; he takes their propaganda at face value. And so do
most other "critics" of the war. This is the wrong way to stamp out
terrorism! Wage peace instead! Dispense justice! Be nice! Then "they"
won't hate "us" anymore (and "we" can carry on with our relentless
pursuit of money and goodies like SUVs).

Evidently the Left, like everybody else, spends too much of its time
watching TV and reading the newspapers, i.e., absorbing propaganda.
How else to comprehend why almost everyone from "liberal" Democrats
and "progressives" to Marxists and anarchists has accepted the
propaganda line of the corporate media and psyops specialists in the
US government: the attacks on September 11 were planned and carried
out by Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists, namely Osama Bin Laden and
Al-Qaida, and caught the US national security apparatus completely
offguard. The fact that no proof has ever been produced doesn't seem
to bother anyone. And when this lack of proof is pointed out, and all
the innumerable facts and circumstances that cast very serious doubt
on this story are brought up, even "critics" of the war dismiss these
persistent questions as lunatic "conspiracy" mongering.

Professor John McMurtry of the University of Guelph points to a deeper
explanation of the difficulty people have had in analyzing all the
evidence objectively. The crimes of September 11 were so shocking that
for many, perhaps most people, even those on the Left, it is literally
unthinkable that they could have been committed or intentionally
permitted by the Bush administration or some secret operations group
working for it:

"There is growing suspicion, which is officially unspeakable, that the
Afghanistan War is a set-up, including September 11 itself. With any
such hypothesis, one looks not only for the evidence confirming it,
but more conscientiously, for the evidence disconfirming it. The
principal reason against is the assumption that it is impossible that
the U.S. national security apparatus would ever permit such a mass
killing of Americans on U.S. soil, but this assumption itself is shaky
given that Pearl Harbour itself was likely known about in advance, and
non-defensive wars since have sacrificed tens of thousands of U.S.
citizens (not to say millions of others) for so-called 'foreign policy
and national security objectives'".

McMurtry proceeds to make a succinct statement of some of the
suspicions that arise in the minds of those who are not paralyzed by
this assumption: "The forensic principle of 'who most benefits from
the crime?' clearly points in the direction of the Bush
administration. One would be naïve to think the Bush Jr. faction and
its oil, military-industrial and Wall Street backers who had stolen an
election with its man rated in office by the majority of Americans as
poor on the economy (a Netscape Poll taken off the screen when the
planes hit the towers), and more deplored by the rest of the world as
a deep danger to the global environment and the international rule of
law, do not benefit astronomically from this mass-kill explosion. If
there was a wish-list, it is all granted by this numbing turn of
events. Americans are diverted from a free-falling economy to attack
another foreign Satan, while the Bush regime's popularity climbs. The
military, the CIA and every satellite armed security apparatus have
more money and power than ever, and become as dominant as they can
over civilians in the 'the whole new era' already being declared by
the White House. The anti-missile plan to rule the skies is now
exonerated (if irrelevantly so), and Israel's apartheid civil war is
vindicated at the same time. Even the surgingly popular 'anti
world-trade' movement is now associated with foreign terrorists
blowing up the World Trade Centre. The more you review the connections
and the sweeping lapse of security across so many co-ordinates, the
more the lines point backwards."

The failure to look hard facts in the face could be fatal, especially
to the Left, which, judging by its response to this point, doesn't
seem to realize that it is one of the principal targets of the coming
global war. We need to look at all the clues which could lead us to
discover who the criminals behind September's events really are, and
we need to do so right away. A huge mass of evidence suggests that the
events of September were planned and carried out by the same team of
"rogue" secret government planners and operatives who have wrought so
much murder and destruction worldwide for the last 40+ years: the CIA,
the Pentagon, the National Security Agency and their contractees.

A War Long Planned
One way to assess the plausibility of the hypothesis that the attacks
of September 11 were a black operation, a "provocation" on an
unheard-of scale, is to evaluate the subsequent actions of the Bush
administration. Another dimension to the horrors of that day was added
by the violent assault of the US Government and the corporate media on
the United States and world populations which took off just minutes
after the planes struck their targets. This aggressive "response",
surely, is fair game for a critical Left analysis, undertaken from a
position of strong skepticism toward any official statements.

Why "strong skepticism?" First let's ask why would any rational person
on the Left believe or take at face value, anything said by anyone in
the Bush administration. It is important to remember that Bush stole
the election: he lost the popular vote by over 500,000 votes (NOT too
close to call!) and stole Florida's electoral votes and the Presidency
by a complex, sophisticated and advance-planned operation involving
the elimination of many thousands of voters from the registration
lists, obstruction and intimidation at the polls, intimidation during
the post-election recount process, and finally by a totally outrageous
intervention by the Supreme Court.

Then Bush loaded his Cabinet with oilmen (and women) and "Cold
Warriors" from his father's rolodex, giving plain notice of his
administration's plans (at least for those with eyes to see). Michael
Ruppert, who has been tracking the secret operations of the CIA and
the Bush family for years, was able to predict in January 2001 the
essential pattern of events which is now unfolding:

"Make no mistake about it. The United States is preparing for war.
Events immediately following the 2000 US election debacle are ominous
predictors for the Bush-Cheney Administration. . .the key posts of
Treasury, Defense, Justice and National Security Advisor point to the
most militarized oil-and-big-business-friendly administration in 35
years. . .We can be assured that an empire (as opposed to a republic)
is emerging in the United States more quickly than many have expected.
And the Bush Administration is already acting in a "godlike" manner.
It is an empire that may have little need even of the pretence of
democracy as American corporate fascism removes its mask in the wake
of our election circus, the prostitution of our Supreme Court and the
virtual destruction of American government as a servant of anything
other than money, greed and power."

Go to war they did, and on a tight, pre-planned schedule. Overwhelming
evidence shows that the war in Afghanistan has nothing to do with
"terrorism" and everything to do with geostrategic plans for
domination of Asia and control of rapidly dwindling natural gas and
oil resources. The US has been planning the "war" in Afghanistan for
years, and the attacks in the US on September 11 were remarkable in
their provision of the shock necessary for the American population to
fall into line behind the imperial adventure to take over Central
Asia. The whole plan is laid out in exquisite detail by Zbigniew
Brzezinski in his 1997 book, The Grand Chessboard, in which he
repeatedly emphasizes the probable need for an attack comparable to
Pearl Harbor to bring the US domestic population onboard. Michael
Ruppert has presented an acute analysis of the relevance of this book
for an understanding of the current situation.

American imperial planners such as Brzezinski see the necessity for
the US to secure its global domination in the near term; they fear the
rise of a contesting power, such as Russia or China, in the Eurasian
heartland, which they see as key for global supremacy. But other, less
"grand" imperatives are uppermost in the minds of the Bush Oiligarchy,
including the coming "Big Rollover" when oil and gas supplies peak and
then precipitously decline, estimated to occur as early as 2003.
Within a very few years the amount of oil extracted from the ground
will start to drop inexorably, regardless of the rate at which new
sources are developed. This reduction of availability combined with
the capitalist imperative of continual expansion of production and
growing global consumption will place severe stress on the global
capitalist system, stress which the US planners intend to manage for
their own benefit. By launching the "war" in Afghanistan, the US has
established a permanent presence on the ground in Central Asia (it now
has bases in nine countries in the region), with the ability to exert
its will over the development of the oil and gas resources of what is
considered the last major untapped field in the world (although
Somalia, the Pentagon's likely next target, is thought to contain
substantial reserves as well).

The Houston-based oil company Unocal has been planning gas and oil
pipelines across Afghanistan for years, but its plans were frustrated
by the instability of the country and the difficulty of working out a
deal with the Taliban. One of the first things the newly emplaced Bush
regime did was reopen negotiations with them over the terms under
which they would provide protection for oil and gas pipelines from
Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan, across Afghanistan to
Pakistan. A new book, Bin Laden: the Forbidden Truth, by Charles
Brisard and Guillaume Dasquie, reveals details of these negotiations,
including the true Mafiosi-style offer in which "US representatives
told the Taliban, 'either you accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or
we bury you under a carpet of bombs.'" Somehow the Taliban found it an
offer they could, and did, refuse. Now, after extensive carpet
bombing, the Taliban have been removed, a puppet regime installed by
the US in Kabul (both Hamid Karzai, the new interim Prime Minister, as
well as US Special Envoy Zalmay Khalilzad, are former Unocal
consultants), and the plans for pipelines are underway once again. In
the Machiavellian world of "diplomacy", this is called "establishing
credibility".

Mention should also be made of the history of close association of
Osama bin Laden with the CIA and Pentagon. Installed in Afghanistan in
the 1980s by the CIA and Saudi royal family (working through their
local proxies, the Inter Service Intelligence or ISI of Pakistan) to
attract "freedom fighters" from the Arab world to fight against the
Russians and "give Russia its Vietnam", Bin Laden went on after the
pullout of Russia to supply mujahedin to other battle zones in Asia
and Europe. He collaborated with the US in Chechnya and Bosnia,
supplying training and fighters to the Chechens and Bosnian Muslims,
and continued the same type of service to the US proxy Kosovo
Liberation Army during the NATO attack on Serbia. His most recent
collaboration with the US has been in the ongoing provision of
mercenaries in Macedonia to destablize the government there, along the
lines of US policy in Kosovo and Albania. The evident reason for all
this "Byzantine" complexity? The laying of an oil pipeline from Burgas
on the Black Sea across Bulgaria and Macedonia to the port of Vlore on
the Adriatic coast of Albania, now currently under construction by the
US oil company AMBO. As they say, "once a CIA agent, always a CIA
agent". There is strong reason to doubt the US propaganda line that
Bin Laden is the mastermind behind the attacks of September 11,
because he is still on the payroll of the CIA. If he did have anything
to do with them, then he must have been following orders.

The assault on the domestic population in the US is motivated by
equally complex and related considerations. The USA PATRIOT Act is
presented as a response to an unexpected terrorist strike, but was in
fact already written and ready to go as the sun rose on September 11.
Hundreds of pages in length, it contains all the pet projects of the
national security apparatus for complete control of the population:
surveillance of phone and internet communications; CIA operations
within the US; sharing of information by the CIA and domestic law
enforcement agencies; provision of grand jury materials to the CIA,
which can then be widely shared as well; seizure of assets;
surreptitious entry of private homes and businesses and removal of
"evidence"("black bag" jobs); and arrest and detention without formal
charges of anyone the government deems a "terrorist", with no judicial
review. The bill was passed by both houses of Congress in record
speed, so fast in fact that no one in Congress had time to read it
first; evidently they didn't need to.

Numerous people have pointed out that the bill really provides few new
powers that would significantly strengthen protections against
terrorism from abroad, but does provide the whole list of powers over
the US domestic population desired by the CIA and FBI for decades.
Essentially a new COINTELPRO has been authorized, undoubtedly with the
primary target, as previously, being the Left. This, combined with the
Operation Garden Plot system of concentration camps, already in place
on federal facilities near major cities around the country, surely
should make people on the Left suspicious. They should be trying to
figure out what is coming -- for what purposes has the government
taken these steps? An obvious and plausible interpretation is that the
government is greatly disturbed by the growing strength of the
"anti-globalization movement" (and especially its anti-capitalist
core), in the US since the events of Seattle in 1999, and foresees
future social upheaval as the global recession moves into an
oil-starved depression. Could it be that they want to have draconian
social control mechanisms in place and operational before the crunch
comes? If so, their principal target will be those deemed "leftists",
as has happened before in US history (the Red Scare after World War I,
and the McCarthy period after WWII). This time, however, the attack on
the Left will be even deadlier, if the past actions of the people now
in charge of the government are any clue.

The assault launched by the US military, police and intelligence
powers since September 11 is described by the mainstream media as a
"response" to the attacks of terrorists from abroad. The nature of the
response, however, makes this claim highly dubious. Instead, the
attack on Afghanistan and the stripping of civil liberties in the US
in themselves suggest a high likelihood that the " terrorist attacks"
in New York and Washington DC were an operation by some secret arm of
the government to provide the pretext to unleash a global and domestic
offensive. Although much has been written and posted online to examine
this possibility, virtually no word of such speculation reaches the
mass media (unless on the lips of Bush or Cheney themselves, who seem
to have some concern about "conspiracy theories" circulating widely
just under the surface).

Anomalies, Incredibilities and Suspicious Circumstances
At this point it will be useful to survey the many lines of evidence
and argument which, taken together, make the standard account of the
events surrounding the attacks on September 11 and the subsequent US
Government response highly dubious. Links are provided to the most
useful discussions of the different lines of evidence.

It is simply not credible that the vast global surveillance and
"intelligence" system maintained by the US Government, with annual
budgets, prior to its historic "failure" on September 11, totaling at
least $30 billion, would have missed the huge "intelligence signature"
such a complex and sophisticated operation would inevitably have made.
US intelligence experts are muzzled but Europeans have been highly
skeptical of the claim that a network such as Al-Qaida would have the
capability to pull it off. Eckehardt Werthebach, former head of
Germany's FBI, the Verfassungschutz, has stated that "the deathly
precision" and "magnitude" of the attacks would have required "years
of planning" and "the fixed frame" of a state intelligence
organization. Following this logic many have speculated that Israel's
Mossad, Pakistan's ISI or even Saudi Arabia may have been the
perpetrator. And this complete "failure" also required an adamantine
lack of response to many warnings to the US from foreign intelligence
services (including Russia, Egypt, Germany and Israel) as well as US
citizens like attorney David Schippers who, tipped off by informants,
contacted the government with warnings prior to September 11.

The incredibilities accumulate as the attacks take place. Four planes
are hijacked, supposedly by "Arab" terrorists, but the passenger lists
from the four flights do not include the name (real or assumed) of a
single one of them! This casts doubt on the list of 19 Arabs produced
by the FBI, and raises the possibility that there actually were no
hijackers on the planes at all. The planes, all equipped with "Home
Run" anti-hijack computer technology which would have made it possible
to seize control of the flights from the ground, veer from their
approved flight paths and head for their targets. The FAA, as it is
required to do, issues alerts to the US military, but no interceptor
aircraft are scrambled to investigate, as required by standard
procedure. The "explanations" of this "failure" are unconvincing. Dick
Cheney claimed that it was an excruciatingly tough decision to order
the jetliners shot down, a decision that only the President is
authorized to make. This is pure smoke. The standard response to
planes off course is interception, not shooting down. No interception
took place, and no credible explanation has been given for this
"failure" of the US air defenses. On the contrary, stand down orders
apparently were issued from the highest command levels.

The hijacked airliners, unhindered (in at least three out of four
cases) then proceeded to execute their spectacular aerial maneuvers.
Two of them, the one which struck the second, south tower of the World
Trade Center, and the one which crashed into the Pentagon, displayed
the flying skills that only crack pilots possess. A problem for the
standard account here is that none of the 19 supposed hijackers was a
crack pilot. The "evidence" presented about their "training" for their
mission is limited to short courses at small-plane flight schools.
Experienced pilots have expressed doubts about the possibility that
inexperienced pilots could have flown the jetliners at such high
speeds with such unerring accuracy. Retired career Special Forces
Master Sergeant Stan Goff has highlighted the problem of the official
story with respect to the Pentagon strike:

"A pilot they want us to believe was trained at a Florida
puddle-jumper school for Piper Cubs and Cessnas, conducts a
well-controlled downward spiral, descending the last 7,000 feet in
two-and-a-half minutes, brings the plane in so low and flat that it
clips the electrical wires across the street from the Pentagon, and
flies it with pinpoint accuracy into the side of this building at 460
nauts. When the theory about learning to fly this well at the
puddle-jumper school began to lose ground, it was added that they
received further flight training on a flight simulator. This is like
saying you prepared your teenager for her first drive on I-40 at rush
hour by buying her a video driving game. It's horse shit!" Again, no
explanation has been offered to make the government's claims credible.

Other very real possibilities do offer explanations, however. The
planes may have been "hijacked" electronically, using the onboard Home
Run technology. The system allows flight controllers on the ground to
take over all flight functions from people onboard the plane, and
could as easily be employed to cause a remote-controlled hijacking as
to seize control of a plane hijacked by persons onboard. No 19 Arabs
were necessary! This would explain the absence of any of the "19
hijackers" from the passenger lists, as well as the inexplicable
demonstration of the highest flying skills in the crashes into the
World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Interestingly, the Home Run
system just happens to permit one person, at a remote location, to fly
four planes simultaneously. One highly skilled operator could have
performed all the aerial feats of the hijacked planes. An explanation
would also be provided for some additional anomalies, including why
the Home Run system was not used to rescue the planes as it was
designed to do, and why none of the "black boxes" with their Cockpit
Voice Recorders have ever been "found" and the contents revealed. They
might reveal the surprise of those onboard at the remote-controlled
takeover of the planes.

After the World Trade Centers were struck by the airliners they
collapsed, as did the nearby WTC #7 (a mere 47 stories tall), which
was not struck by any plane. No entirely convincing explanations of
these collapses have been forthcoming; many people have doubted that
buildings designed to withstand such a blow from an airliner, as they
were, would have disintegrated. These critics contend that only a
professional demolition job could have caused the buildings to
collapse in the manner in which they did. The official investigation
into the cause of the collapse has been undermined from the start; the
steel from the collapsed structures was recycled immediately,
supposedly by decision of the City of New York, before any team of
qualified forensic engineers could examine it.

Finally, there are many lines of evidence indicating advance knowledge
of the attacks, including insider trading in airline and insurance
company stocks (rather implausibly attributed to Al-Qaida), and
warnings to various people (including San Francisco mayor Willie
Brown) not to fly on September 11. A major shift of the offices of
high-ranking Pentagon planners took place one week before the plane
crashed into the space they had vacated; no high level officers or
civilian officials was killed. No Congressional investigation of any
of the unexplained "anomalies" surrounding September 11 has been
launched. No one has been punished for the massive failures of
established procedures and expectations; on the contrary the agencies
which "failed" so spectacularly have been rewarded by increased funds
and powers.

Furthermore it has been revealed that the Bush regime stopped FBI
investigations into Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaida in the early summer
of 2001, causing the lead investigator, John O'Neill, to resign in
protest. Circulating in the background is the close business
relationship between the Bush family and the Bin Laden family, their
joint ownership of major shares of the Carlyle Group (a large US
defense company now profiting handsomely from the new surge in
military expenditures), and the abundant evidence that Osama bin Laden
has continued to receive major financial support from the Saudi royal
family.

All this complexity is really just a "short list" of some of the
unexplained facts, incredible assertions and suspicious circumstances
surrounding the events of September 11. There are many more. The many
highly technical aspects of the questions raised make it extremely
difficult for anyone to get a firm grasp of the whole picture.
Nevertheless, people on the Left should be able to look at them and
evaluate them objectively as well as they can, especially given the
high stakes, but few have done so.

Who Really Rules
As Jim Garrison pointed out in 1967, after frustrating years trying to
penetrate the layers of official obscurity erected around the real
perpetrators of the JFK assassination, "In a very real and terrifying
sense, our Government is the CIA and the Pentagon, with Congress
reduced to a debating society. Of course, you can't spot this trend to
fascism by casually looking around. You can't look for such familiar
signs as the swastika, because they won't be there. We won't build
Dachaus and Auschwitzes; the clever manipulation of the mass media is
creating a concentration camp of the mind that promises to be far more
effective in keeping the population in line. . . .The test is, what
happens to the individual who dissents?. . .the awesome power of the
CIA and the defense establishment seem destined. . .to bring us into a
new Orwellian world where the citizen exists for the State and where
raw power justifies any and every immoral act. . .fascism will come to
America in the name of national security." Garrison's nightmare vision
is now plainly visible to all who are willing to look.

"Fascism" has been back on people's lips a lot lately, especially
since the events of Genoa in July, 2001, in which Silvio Berlusconi
launched a typical Italian fascist police attack on leftists
demonstrating against the heads of state of the G8 nations. Berlusconi
was not the only one there with fascist connections; the Bushes have
been linked with fascism since the 1920s, when George Herbert Walker
and Prescott Bush became bankers for the Nazi Party. George W. Bush is
a figure rather similar in certain fundamental ways to Ronald Reagan.
He is the titular President, but isn't up to the job; he is a puppet
controlled by unknown persons behind the scenes. The probable
puppet-master is his father, George Herbert Walker Bush, the man who
correctly said "I am not a one-term President". Long time CIA agent,
and Director of the CIA when the leftist minister from Salvador
Allende's government, Orlando Letelier, was assassinated by a car-bomb
in the streets of Washington DC, George H.W. Bush was actually in
charge of the country for twelve years, during Reagan's two terms and
his own one. Gene Wheaton, a military criminal investigator who at one
time was very close to the CIA but couldn't stomach the outrageous
covert operations of "Iran-Contra" and was an early whistle blower of
the affair, provided a rare insider's view of the reality of the
Reagan years:

"Reagan never really was the president. He was the front man. They
selected a guy that had charisma, who was popular, and just a good old
boy, but they got George Bush in there to actually run the White
House. They'd let Ronald Reagan and Nancy out of the closet and let
them make a speech and run them up the flagpole and salute them and
put them back in the closet while these spooks ran the White House.
They made sure that George Bush was the chairman of each of the
critical committees involving these covert operations things. One of
them was the Vice President's Task Force on Combating Terrorism. They
got Bush in as the head of the Vice President's task force on
narcotics, the South Florida Task Force, so that they could place
people in DEA and in the Pentagon and in Customs to run interference
for them in these large-scale international narcotics and movement of
narcotics money cases. They got Bush in as the chairman of the
committee to deregulate the Savings and Loans in '83 so they could
deregulate the Savings and Loans, so that they would be so loosely
structured that they could steal 400, 500 billion dollars. . .they ran
the whole operation, and Bush was the de facto president even before
the '88 election when he became president.

"See, when Harry Truman signed the National Security Act creating the
CIA, he specifically stated in that act that they could not have any
police powers. And they could not operate domestically in the United
States, because he feared a secret police coup. By creeping in a
little at a time, that coup has taken place.

"This crowd really believes that the unwashed masses are ignorant,
that we are people who are not capable of governing ourselves, that we
need this elitist group to control the country, and the world -- these
guys have expanded. They look at the United States not as a country,
not in any patriotic mode now, but they look on it as a state within a
world that they control. And that's this attitude they have. They're
not unlike any other megalomaniac in the world. They're nutty as a
fruitcake, but they've got distinguished gray hair, three-piece dark
suits and they carry briefcases, and they'll stand up and make
speeches just as articulate as anybody in the world, but they don't
socialize and function outside their own little clique. My experience
with them is that they could be certified as criminally insane and put
away in a rubber room and have the key thrown away. That's how
dangerous they are. But they're powerful, and they're educated. And
that makes them twice as dangerous. And that's basically what's
running the world right now."

In all likelihood the structure within the current White House is
similar: a well-rested front man for the photo-ops, a powerful Vice
President actually running the day-to-day operations, and heavies from
the CIA and Pentagon doing the long-range strategizing, all veterans
of George H.W. Bush's regime. If this hypothesis is even partially
accurate, an analysis of the past, when the elder Bush was in power,
would most probably provide solid clues to what the new regime is
currently planning. The Gulf War of 1991 shows obvious parallels to
today; it was very largely about oil, as is the "War on Terrorism",
and followed a deceptive move on the part of Bush administration,
which duped Saddam Hussein into making his move on Kuwait. This then
provided the pretext for the US to establish military bases in Saudi
Arabia and the Gulf region, as well as to try out all the new weaponry
that had been developed and awaited its exemplary debut.

Another salient feature of the Reagan/Bush period was the systematic
murder of thousands of leftists around the world, in countries
controlled by puppet regimes of the US, and most especially so in
Latin America. Death squads trained at the School of the Americas
eliminated radicals, unionists, students, teachers, landless peasants,
professors and priests in El Salvador, Nicaragua, Honduras, Guatemala,
Colombia, Argentina, Chile and Brazil. In every case these killings
were in keeping with US government policy: leftists are the enemy and
will be killed wherever possible, preferably in as painful and
horrific a manner as possible. This activity is still taking place,
especially in Colombia, where the US is currently funding a massive
escalation in military and paramilitary attacks on the population,
called Plan Colombia.

So What Is Plan United States?
Could it really be that the current regime has intentions of crushing
the Left in the US, with massive arrests, torture, and disappearances,
as in Latin America? Before rejecting the proposition out of hand, it
would be wise to consider recent events from the standpoint of what
they suggest about the concern our rogue capitalist masters have
regarding people like us.

A clue to understanding the real core of the situation is to recognize
how destablilizing is the imperial adventure embarked upon by the Bush
regime. The attack on Afghanistan threatens to destroy a very delicate
balance in the Middle East and South and Central Asia, both regionally
and within individual countries. The attack is incredibly risky, a
daring throw in a high stakes game. Such a move, undertaken by the
most powerful nation in the world, must be a sign of desperation.

Two sources of this desperation have already been identified: the
coming Big Rollover, when the supply of oil will peak and can no
longer keep up with demand, putting severe strain on the capitalist
system which relies so heavily on abundant and cheap energy; and the
rapidly growing global anti-capitalist movement, which will be well
positioned to advance as the oil shortages materialize. The planners
of capital have seen their every attempt to meet and strategize
contested by ever-growing numbers of demonstrators, and all over the
world major development projects of capital, for dams, pipelines,
power or chemical plants, are strongly contested by local people
affected by them. The role of the International Monetary Fund, World
Bank, World Trade Organization, World Economic Forum, NAFTA, European
Union and similar planning and developmental agencies of capital are
recognized all over the world as imperialist and neo-colonialist
weapons of the capitalist marauder class, designed to impose the "new"
corporate-state oligarchy. Such agencies and the powers behind them,
states and corporations, are now increasingly seen as illegitimate all
over the world. The US state, as the global center of capital and
coercion, has now launched a preemptive war in response to this crisis
of illegitimacy, which it correctly sees is potentially fatal for
global capital.

The fake black bloc provocations, the murder of Carlo Giuliani and the
crackdown by hooded storm troopers on the Genoa Social Forum and
Indymedia center in Genoa in July 2001 was a return to familiar
methods by the Berlusconi regime; the Italian state is famed for the
murderous brutality it displays toward left-wing contestation.
Provocations and fake terror have long been part of the state arsenal.
In Italy in the late 1960s and 1970s the state secret services as part
of the "strategy of tension" set off bombs in public places and blamed
the non-existent "Red Brigades", using this as a pretext to launch a
sweep against the Autonomist Workers movement (Autonomia) and
left-wing intellectuals, in which over 5000 people were arrested and
charged with "armed insurrection against the powers of the State".
More than 150 remain in prison to this day. So well-executed and
effective has the tactic been that even some of these political
prisoners, e.g. Toni Negri, although insisting on their own personal
innocence, do not question the events or the reality of the Red
Brigades.

But others saw through the operation at the time, and analyzed it
clearly. The situationist Gianfranco Sanguinetti, in "Is the Reichstag
Burning?" (dated 19 December 1969), laid out an analysis which has
been confirmed by subsequent events and document discoveries: that the
bombings were carried out by the state to strengthen the security
forces and provide pretexts for crushing the most radical sector of
the Left. The fake terror campaign was an act of weakness on the part
of the Italian capitalist state, recognizing that without such methods
it could not stop the growing power of the autonomist movement.

Genoa in July was just more of the same strategy. It is easy to
imagine Bush and Blair enjoying the show put on by the Carabinieri,
and saying to their chum Berlusconi, "That's good, very nice, but just
wait. Wait till you see what we can do!" Behind their barricades in
the Ducal palace, plans were being laid for the present assault on the
workers of the world. As before, the principal target is that section
of the working class which has developed some understanding of the
social situation, beyond the immediate individual struggle to survive.
The USA PATRIOT Act and similar legislation passed in Europe signal
the impending campaign of arrests, summary trials, torture, executions
and disappearances, all conducted under the pretext of "terrorism", as
formerly, under the rubric "Communism", they were the norm in the rest
of the world. "Globalization" really means the globalization of
capitalist coercion in all its forms, never excluding the physical.
Capital, in its campaign to reduce workers' conditions to the lowest
common denominator, so obvious in the flight of production to China,
India, Mexico, and Malaysia, does not forget to "harmonize" state
terror worldwide as well. As Starhawk said after the events in Genoa,
they're coming soon to your home too.

from:
http://victoria.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=2421&group=webcast

I'm sure you'll just dismiss the above points with a superficial
gesture of contempt and/or derision; Most defenders of the right-wing
status-quo are too deeply invested in supporting the myth that the US
is directed by noble motives and decency, when the facts are that the
US is a longtime neocolonialist power that has financed worldwide
terror as an appropriate technique of statecraft, and has
significantly caused the current conditions of civil unrest and
instability;

No matter how often you and those of the right say something is a
certain way, it will not change history or what is true;

It remains, the US citizenry has more to fear of their corrupt
power-mad 'leadership' than of any foreign threat;

Sincerely,
Starman

The USA use their "Terrorist camp" , the Western Hemisphere Institute
for Security Cooperation (WHISC) in Fort Benning, Georgia, where an
estimated 60,000 Latin American soldiers and police officers attended
classes, for the 1994 Ocosingo massacre in Mexico.
7 years later President Bush says: "If any government sponsors the
outlaws and killers of innocents they have become outlaws and
murderers themselves".
http://www.mediachannel.org/atissue/conflict/


"Today, America would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles
to restore order.
Tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were
told that there were an outside threat from beyond, whether real or
promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all
peoples of the world will plead to deliver them from this evil.
The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this
scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the
guarantee of their well-being granted to them by the World
Government."
Dr. Henry Kissinger, Bilderberger Conference, Evians, France, 1991
Source: www.bilderberg.org

"In a very real and terrifying sense, our Government is the CIA and
the Pentagon, with Congress reduced to a debating society. . . the
clever manipulation of the mass media is creating a concentration camp
of the mind that promises to be far more effective in keeping the
population in line. . . .The test is, what happens to the individual
who dissents?. . .the awesome power of the CIA and the defense
establishment seem destined. . .to bring us into a new Orwellian world
where the citizen exists for the State and where raw power justifies
any and every immoral act. . .fascism will come to America in the name
of national security." Kennedy Assassination investigator Jim
Garrison, 1967

Alec Owen

unread,
May 18, 2002, 11:26:34 AM5/18/02
to
Rabbi Doug (Zionist) of the Likud has never tried to discuss honestly the
Jewish problem in the
Palestinian Mandate. He consistently propagandizes for the Zionist cause and
attempts to foment hatred of
Palestinians because he does not want to agree to a fair sharing of the land
but consistently advocates for a "Greater Israel". He categorises any honest
discussion of the problem as coming from "terrorists" or "terrorist
supporters"
He makes up his own facts and history. Just don't expect anything better
from him and others like him because along with all extreme Zionists THEY
WANT IT ALL.EVERY ACRE THEY CAN GET.
Do you really expect him to answer your question at the end of your
post.Don't hold your breath while waiting.
A Owen

D

DGVREIMAN

unread,
May 18, 2002, 12:28:08 PM5/18/02
to

"Sta...@truthfree.net" <Sta...@Truth.com> wrote in message
news:3ce614a3....@news.echoweb.net...

> On Thu, 16 May 2002 19:24:21 GMT, "DGVREIMAN"
> <dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Heyia Doug;
>
> The first half of your commentary explaining the historical
context of
> the Koran was pretty sharp and well said, but then you
completely lost
> it when you fell back into the familiar right-wing creation of
> justification for the 'war on terror' which ignores a whole
plethora
> of contradictions and factual observations; It is certain that
you
> like many others who fanatically defend the Bush Inc. campaign
of
> World Hegemony on behalf of a capitalistic oligarchy have more
than a
> passing familiarity with some of the compelling reasons why the
> leftists, peace-advocates and liberals and intellectual-critics
take
> principled exception with that mainstream fantasy;


Doug Says: If you are going to make statements like the one
above, replete with allegations, you need to provide some
specifics. Where am I ignoring anything?


Doug Says: Apparently, you missed the events on 9/11. For some
reason I remember several attacks on America that started this
war....I find it strange that you do not. This war was not
"conjured" up by special interest groups the war started because
America was repeatedly attacked. (Most people, including
Austriaians know that.)

Moreover, your key issue is utter nonsense. Our "special
interest" groups will never profit from this war. You naiveté
and suggestion they will is childish and reflects a complete lack
of knowledge of how our economy and profit oriented system works.
You sound like a Communist that simply does not have a clue. Now
if you want to post some specifics, as to what special interest
would gain anything in respect to this war, I will be glad to
reply.

> In the face of this juggernaut the Left has shown a potentially
fatal
> lack of intellectual rigor as well as nerve. The evidence that
the
> attacks on September 11 were in all likelihood a black
operation of
> the US intelligence services, a state "provocation" designed as
a
> pretext to launch the global "War on Terrorism", is very
substantial.
> It is also painful to consider, but the task must not be
shirked. The
> purpose of this essay is to consider its relevance to the
future of
> the only force which holds any hope of saving humanity and the
planet
> from the megadeath capital is preparing, the anti-capitalist
Left.

Doug Says: The pattern of Al Qaeda attacks are well documented.
Bin Laden has admitted the attacks. Al Qaeda attacked America
several times prior to 9/11. Your hysterical misrepresentation
that America attacked itself all these times, for some reason
that only you seem to believe, is bordering on the delusional.

Doug Says: Your "stretch" from our retaliation against
terrorists that attacked us into some world wide conflagration is
pathetic. No sane person will believe you. You rail, but offer
no proof, there is not one thread of substance to your claims,
and you howl and spin utter nonsense as if you actually believe
people will accept your tired and torn Communist propaganda. You
are living in the wrong century. We have heard all this howling
before, and we have watched it crumble, and be disproved in every
instance.
>
Snip tired, old, lame and repeative Communist manifesto child
like diatribe against the United States. My paragraph above
applies to all of the remaining rantings.

Doug Grant (Tm)


зKе WхгKАо

unread,
May 18, 2002, 3:59:28 PM5/18/02
to
all sharon and the likud want is piece.

und lebensraum.

Alec Owen

unread,
May 18, 2002, 10:24:47 PM5/18/02
to

"§K¥ Wå£K?®" <asky...@rebeloutpost.org> wrote in message
news:na4deug19bc0hghls...@4ax.com...

> all sharon and the likud want is piece.
>
> und lebensraum.

The don't want a piece THEY WANT IT ALL.

A Owen


DGVREIMAN

unread,
May 19, 2002, 10:48:11 AM5/19/02
to

"§K¥ Wå£K?®" <asky...@rebeloutpost.org> wrote in message
news:na4deug19bc0hghls...@4ax.com...
> all sharon and the likud want is piece.
>
> und lebensraum.

Doug Says:

Living space is an issue to be sure. But since the Egyptians and
the Jordanians gave the land in question to the Israelis during
the 1974 agreements to end the Yom Kippur war, then how and why
should the Palestinians have any legitimate claim to that land?
Why did Egypt jail Terrorfat, and Jordan kick Terrorfat and the
Palestinians out of their country? It appears none of the Arab
countries want to help the Palestinians, and they want whatever
land the Palestinians get to come from the land they gave to
Israel back in 1974.

That is why we have a war.

I say all of the Middle Eastern nations that border Israel
(including Israel) should donate a specific parcel of land to the
Palestinians...provided of course Terrorfat is replaced and the
free elections I have been calling for (for the past three
months) occur.

Doug Grant (Tm)


Alec Owen

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May 19, 2002, 12:08:55 PM5/19/02
to

"DGVREIMAN" <dgg...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:LWOF8.30978$Vm2.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

>
> "§K¥ Wå£K?®" <asky...@rebeloutpost.org> wrote in message
> news:na4deug19bc0hghls...@4ax.com...
> > all sharon and the likud want is piece.
> >
> > und lebensraum.
>
> Doug Says:
>
> Living space is an issue to be sure. But since the Egyptians and
> the Jordanians gave the land in question to the Israelis during
> the 1974 agreements to end the Yom Kippur war, then how and why
> should the Palestinians have any legitimate claim to that land?
>
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/we.html
Background: The Israel-PLO Declaration of Principles on Interim
Self-Government Arrangements (the DOP), signed in Washington on 13 September
1993, provided for a transitional period not exceeding five years of
Palestinian interim self-government in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.
Under the DOP, Israel agreed to transfer certain powers and responsibilities
to the Palestinian Authority, which includes the Palestinian Legislative
Council elected in January 1996, as part of interim self-governing
arrangements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. A transfer of powers and
responsibilities for the Gaza Strip and Jericho took place pursuant to the
Israel-PLO 4 May 1994 Cairo Agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area
and in additional areas of the West Bank pursuant to the Israel-PLO 28
September 1995 Interim Agreement, the Israel-PLO 15 January 1997 Protocol
Concerning Redeployment in Hebron, the Israel-PLO 23 October 1998 Wye River
Memorandum, and the 4 September 1999 Sharm el-Sheikh Agreement. The DOP
provides that Israel will retain responsibility during the transitional
period for external security and for internal security and public order of
settlements and Israeli citizens. Permanent status is to be determined
through direct negotiations, which resumed in September 1999 after a
three-year hiatus. An intifadah broke out in September 2000; the resulting
widespread violence in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Israel's military
response, and instability in the Palestinian Authority are undermining
progress toward a permanent settlement

Dear Rabbi,
What makes you think that you can tell lies?. We have theses days ample
means of research into this question.
The 1993 Declarationof Principles makes no mention of the right of Israel to
establish colonies/settlements on the West Bank.

The rest of the poison was deleted.


DGVREIMAN

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May 19, 2002, 8:20:20 PM5/19/02
to

"Alec Owen" <ao...@phaedrav.com> wrote in message
news:3ce7cdb4$1...@audacity.velocet.net...
Doug Says: Rabbi? Hahaha. Not only am I not a Rabbi, I am not
even Jewish dum dum! Look "dummy" I posted the Oslo accords.
The Palestinians violated them before the ink was even dry.
Your statements above miss about ten key points, and you
correctly state "an Intifadah broke out" yet what you really mean
is that Palestinians started murdering Israeli children after
Terrorfat refused the Camp David offer.

Terrorfat was convinced that if he murdered enough children then
Israel would cower and Terrorfat would be able to force Israel to
give up the lands that the Egyptians and Jordanians gave Israel
in 1974. Your "self-serving blurb" above makes no mention of the
fact the Israelis were not prevented from doing just about
anything they wanted to do in respect to settlements. Here are
the Oslo Accords "COMPLETE" in regards to the settlement issues
clearly excerpted for the benefit of anyone that really wants to
know the truth on this issue.

Moreover, your blurb above still does not establish any legal
right to the lands the Egyptians and Jordanians gave the Israelis
as an inducement to not take Cario and the Suez Canal during the
Yom Kippur war. Israel offered "some" land to the Palestinains
*only* if they complied with the provisions of the Oslo accords,
which they did not! See below:

Moreover, what you snipped was the truth: The Egyptians JAILED
Terrorfat, and the Jordanians kicked him and all of the
Palestinians out of Jordan. Then when Terrorfat backed Saddam
during the Gulf war the Kuwaitis kicked out all of the
Palestinians and cost them hundreds of thousands of jobs. That
helped to create the problem in Palestine today, and forced
hundreds of thousands of Palestinians into poverty and
despair....not the Israelis! Terrorfat has done more damage to
the Palestinian people than ten Israelis could have done.

If the Palestinians get some land, it should come equally from
all Arab states and Israel. It is the Arabs that deceived and
cheated the Palestinians, not the Israelis!

>
OSLO ADDRESSES ISRAELI SETTLEMENTS EXCERPTS:

Article I

Definitions


For the purpose of this Agreement:

a. the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area are delineated on map
Nos. 1
and 2 attached to this Agreement;

b. "the Settlements" means the Gush Katif and Erez
settlement
areas, as well as the other settlements in the Gaza
Strip, as
shown on attached map No. 1;

(Doug's Notes: Look at what "dummy" posted above. He claimed the
Oslo accords did not allow Israel to have settlements in the Gaza
Strip....dummy obviously is lying as this paragraph clearly
states.)

c. "the Military Installation Area" means the Israeli
military
installation area along the Egyptian border in the Gaza
Strip,
as shown on map No. 1; and

d. the term "Israelis" shall also include Israeli statutory
agencies and corporations registered in Israel.

Doug's notes:

Obviously, the Palestinians accepted the existence of settlements
when they signed the Oslo Accords.

***************************

3. In order to carry out Israel's responsibility for external
security
and for internal security and public order of Settlements and
Israelis, Israel shall, concurrently with the withdrawal,
redeploy
its remaining military forces to the Settlements and the
Military
Installation Area, in accordance with the provisions of this
Agreement. Subject to the provisions of this Agreement, this
redeployment shall constitute full implementation of Article
XIII of
the Declaration of Principles with regard to the Gaza Strip
and the
Jericho Area only.

4. For the purposes of this Agreement, "Israeli military forces"
may
include Israel police and other Israeli security forces.

5. Israelis, including Israeli military forces, may continue to
use
roads freely within the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area.
Palestinians may use public roads crossing the Settlements
freely,
as provided for in Annex I.

Doug's Notes:

The Israelis were clearly not restricted to any roads, nor
restricted from providing infrastructure access roads to their
settlements.


***********************************


Article V

Jurisdiction


1. The authority of the Palestinian Authority encompasses all
matters
that fall within its territorial, functional and personal
jurisdiction, as follows:

a. The territorial jurisdiction covers the Gaza Strip and
the
Jericho Area territory, as defined in Article I, except
for
Settlements and the Military Installation Area.

Territorial jurisdiction shall include land, subsoil and
territorial waters, in accordance with the provisions of
this
Agreement.

b. The functional jurisdiction encompasses all powers and
responsibilities as specified in this Agreement. This
jurisdiction does not include foreign relations, internal
security and public order of Settlements and the Military
Installation Area and Israelis, and external security.

Doug's Notes: Clearly, the Palestinians agreed the Settlements
would remain, and would be controlled by the Israelis. The
Military Installation area also was not under Palestinian
control. That land was controlled by the Israelis.

**************************************************
3. a. Israel has authority over the Settlements, the Military
Installation Area, Israelis, external security, internal
security and public order of Settlements, the Military
Installation Area and Israelis, and those agreed powers
and
responsibilities specified in this Agreement.

b. Israel shall exercise its authority through its military
government, which, for that end, shall continue to have
the
necessary legislative, judicial and executive powers and
responsibilities, in accordance with international law.
This
provision shall not derogate from Israel's applicable
legislation over Israelis in personam. 4. The exercise of
authority with regard to the electromagnetic sphere and
airspace
shall be in accordance with the provisions of this
Agreement.
**********************************************************

Article XVIII

Prevention of Hostile Acts


Both sides shall take all measures necessary in order to prevent
acts of
terrorism, crime and hostilities directed against each other,
against
individuals falling under the other's authority and against their
property, and shall take legal measures against offenders. In
addition,
the Palestinian side shall take all measures necessary to prevent
such
hostile acts directed against the Settlements, the infrastructure
serving them and the Military Installation Area, and the Israeli
side
shall take all measures necessary to prevent such hostile acts
emanating
from the Settlements and directed against Palestinians.


******************************************************

5. Nothing in this Agreement shall prejudice or preempt the
outcome of
the negotiations on the interim agreement or on the permanent
status
to be conducted pursuant to the Declaration of Principles.
Neither
Party shall be deemed, by virtue of having entered into this
Agreement, to have renounced or waived any of its existing
rights,
claims or positions.

Doug's Notes: Clearly, this provision does not restrict Israel
from building new settlements, especially on lands the
Palestinians have already agreed Israel controls and they
specifically would not control.

Doug Grant (Tm)
>


Alec Owen

unread,
May 21, 2002, 11:39:15 AM5/21/02
to
I don't propose to keep going over the same stuff and providing citations
for ever.
Either you don't read them or you don't understand them.
You remind me of the lady who said, "Please don't confuse me with facts, my
mind is made up"

A Owen

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