Has anyone. . .
Stephen R. Diamond
What does one make of this avoidance? Is it an inability to defend his
positions, an inability to control his rage at opponents, or a lack of
concern about whether his position and analysis are correct? The last is
supported by Prianikoff's comment that he would not trust anyone who is
100% correct.
There are some, such as the late Dr. Kaufball, for whom discussion means
ONLY debate. Then there are those such as Prianikoff, for whom debate is
verboten.
srd
A.Prianikoff
>seen Prianikoff engage in *sustained* political debate with *anyone*?
>What does one make of this avoidance? Is it an inability to defend his
>positions, an inability to control his rage at opponents, or a lack of
>concern about whether his position and analysis are correct? The last is
>supported by Prianikoff's comment that he would not trust anyone who is
>100% correct.
It's half time, so you can have about 30 seconds.
I've had long debates with people who are worth debating.
The first time I had a debate with you was on "What is to be done?"
When I showed that "The Reorganisation of the Party " was written
afterwards, you disappeared for about 4 months. So much for being 100%
correct. I think the word is arrogant.
P.S. I still wouldn't trust you further than I could throw you.
Suzanne Macken
are playing? :)
Suzanne
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
Suzanne Macken
written after "What is to be Done" was?
>> It's half time, so you can have about 30 seconds.
>> I've had long debates with people who are worth debating.
>> The first time I had a debate with you was on "What is to be
done?"
>> When I showed that "The Reorganisation of the Party " was
written
>> afterwards, you disappeared for about 4 months. So much for
being 100%
>> correct. I think the word is arrogant.
>
>A deja search reveals no apst posting on "The Reorganization of
the
>Party."
>
>You are a liar, Prianikoff.
>
>Others have said so. I hadn't believed it. (I may be correct on
program,
>but certainly not always on character). Now I know. So, what is
your
>real name?
>
>srd
Stephen R. Diamond
<al...@prianikoff.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> Stephen R. Diamond wrote: -
>
> >seen Prianikoff engage in *sustained* political debate with *anyone*?
>
> >What does one make of this avoidance? Is it an inability to defend his
> >positions, an inability to control his rage at opponents, or a lack of
> >concern about whether his position and analysis are correct? The last is
> >supported by Prianikoff's comment that he would not trust anyone who is
> >100% correct.
>
>
Stephen R. Diamond
Macken <sooz_mac...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
> Didn't he mean that "The Reorganisation of the Party" was
> written after "What is to be Done" was?
>
> >> It's half time, so you can have about 30 seconds.
> >> I've had long debates with people who are worth debating.
> >> The first time I had a debate with you was on "What is to be
> done?"
> >> When I showed that "The Reorganisation of the Party " was
> written
> >> afterwards, you disappeared for about 4 months. So much for
> being 100%
> >> correct. I think the word is arrogant.
> >
> >A deja search reveals no apst posting on "The Reorganization of
> the
> >Party."
> >
> >You are a liar, Prianikoff.
> >
> >Others have said so. I hadn't believed it. (I may be correct on
> program,
> >but certainly not always on character). Now I know. So, what is
> your
> >real name?
> >
> >srd
Yes, that is what he meant. My point was only that if he actually had
posted on "The Reorganization of the Party," this posting could be found
in a deja search. (I entered no limiting dates).
His lie was not about the "The Reorganization of the Party" but about
his posting on it.
srd
Geoff Collier
Suzanne Macken <sooz_mac...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:038eb24c...@usw-ex0105-037.remarq.com...
> Do you take the "revolutionary defeatist" stance when England
> are playing? :)
> Suzanne
I certainly do, and have done so since 1973 (I was 14) when England failed
to beat Poland and thereby failed to qualify for the '74 World Cup. This was
largely due to Brian Clough's irrational rudeness about the Polish
goalkeeper (I was a goalkeeper too) and I began to see nationalism as it is.
Therefore I mourn the defeat of Germany tonight (and incidently, the death
of my friend in hospital tonight)
Ten years ago we (SWP) held a public meeting here in Hull on the night of
England's semi-final with Germany (FDR ?) and finished in time to see the
penalties. Our derision at Stuart Pearce's missed penalty caused a degree of
hostility from other drinkers, but when the Militant supporters heard of
this they were scornful because they thought we should support England, as
the mass of the working class also did.
When it comes to Tebbitt's cricket test, I hope for rain.
geoff
minutes free!
> http://www.keen.com
>
A.Prianikoff
>A deja search reveals no apst posting on "The Reorganization of the
>Party."
>You are a liar, Prianikoff.
Your candidate membership has been revoked again Diamond.
January 1999
Steven Diamond wrote: -
>What is the date "The re-organisation of the Party" was written? It
>sounds as though you have it before you.
It was written just after the 1905 revolution in Russia
>In "What is to be Done?" he does focus on the role of intellectuals,
>whose existence precedes the existence of a Party, since Marxism is
>brought into the working class from the outside through their agency.
Intellectuals as a social group? Hardly.
Lenin's point was that the economic struggle against one employer or within
a single industry did not automatically produce socialist consciousness.
This required an understanding of the relationships between all social
classes and the role of the state. Such an understanding required marxist
theory. This could only come initially, from those who had acquired such
theoretical knowledge. These might be "intellectuals", but not as a social
layer or grouping but as members of a working class organisation. Trotsky
rightly pointed out in the " Intellectuals and Socialism" that the vast
majority of the intelligensia were not likely to become socialist due to
their material interests. Those that did were individuals breaking from
their class ties, whereas workers would move en-masse to socialism whatever
reactionary ideas they might temporarily espouse.
>I contend (with Lenin, I think, but await your answer on chronology: I
>"predict" What is to be Done?" was written *after* the work you cite)
>that no movement serves a progressive "ideological" function but the
>Party.
Well you predict wrong. "What is to be Done" was written in February 1902,
3 years before "The Reorganisation of the Party".
It was written to steer the RSDLP away from " Economism" which sought to
restrict the workers movement to "trade union" issues while leaving the
field of politics to the liberal bourgeoise. This view a reflection of a
false notion that the liberal bourgeoisie would have to lead the Revolution
due to Russia's feudal backwardness.
It's difficult to see how your later comments regarding movements external
to the party can be reconciled to Lenin's positions in for example "
Left-Wing Communism" where he argued for work in even the most reactionary
Trade Unions and proposed that the British Communists should not just vote
for Labour candidates but seek affiliation to the Labour Party. In fact the
first Communist MP in Britain, Sharpuri Saklatvala (a Parsee Indian) was a
member of Battersea Labour Party !
A.Prianikoff
>Do you take the "revolutionary defeatist" stance when England
>are playing?
Racist football fans draped in the Cross of St George are an ugly
phenomenon.
I believe some of them caused a spot of bother in Dublin a few years back?
I'd certainly support driving scum like that off the terraces.
Stephen R. Diamond
<al...@prianikoff.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
See other posting for my apology. This, however, is hardly a debate, but
is the sort of discussion you were at the time willing to enter,
precisely because it was not a debate. (Does : "I contend (with Lenin, I
think, but await your answer on chronology) sound either arrongant or as
the preface to a position for which I would hide for 4 months?)
It is hard to come to any judgment as to which participant in this
discussion was the more confused. My position was wrong, and your
correction was (as usual) irrelevant.
srd
Stephen R. Diamond
<al...@prianikoff.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> Racist football fans draped in the Cross of St George are an ugly
> phenomenon.
You could use some editing by Kaufball. If you are going to err in
grammar, do it obviously, as I do. Subtle errors show your lack of. . .
grasp of subtlety. This may seem a nonpolitical criticism, but it is
political. It is part of painting an accurate picture of you as a would
be left politician, who has never seriously committed himself to any
cadre organization, instead flitting from one to the next, summoning
workers to join, and then quitting.
Oh, the subtle error--"phenomenon" refers back to "fans," and should be
plural. (There is a possible, but not good argument that fans is to be
taken as singular, but then the *verb* should have been singular.)
srd
P.S. You probably didn't understand the part about 100% correctness. It
is a subtle point. Part of being 100% correct is knowing when you don't
know. Such suspension of judgment, in fact, is the biggest part.
Dogmastists such as yourself accept as true whatever belief you happen
first to form, unless those beliefs are *shattered* empirically. You
take pride in your certainty, when you have no reason to be certain. The
left will only become a serious force in a given country when it ceases
to be comprised of individuals who form their beliefs in this dogmatic
manner, and rather in the manner of Lenin, who studied rival theories
before deciding which is true.
A.Prianikoff
>>Do you take the "revolutionary defeatist" stance when England
>>are playing?
If Sol Campbell is on the ball I'm a revolutionary defencist.
During penalty shoot-outs I become a Pabloite.
England are bound to lose them, so there's no need for any independent
stance whatsoever.
I wouldn't support the police in France against the racist English fans who
were on the rampage last night, but if there's a branch of S.O.S Racisme in
Chareloi, they can get stuck in with my full support.
A.Prianikoff
>I wouldn't support the police in France against the racist English fans who
>were on the rampage last night, but if there's a branch of S.O.S Racisme
in
>Chareloi, they can get stuck in with my full support.
That should be 'Charleroi' and 'Belgian' police.
Strange that some English fans were chanting " No Surrender", the Paislyite
slogan.
Well, not so strange.
" Hundreds had already gathered in the city. The beer flowed and the volume
of the "No Surrender" and "Ingerlund" chants rose steadily as the afternoon
wore on. At 11pm a mob suddenly surged across the square towards a small
group of Germans, drinking peacefully at Le Fou de Roy. The Germans fled but
more disorder lay ahead. "
However, the police action was a violation of civil rights and an example of
collective punishment.
" While the authorities in Charleroi were content to release nearly all of
the 500 supporters arrested in the town, their Brussels counterparts took a
tougher line. Many of the 374 arrested on Friday night and the 73 held after
England's victory on Saturday, were ferried by a fleet of dark blue police
buses to a military airfield at Melsbroek, on the outskirts of Brussels.
Others were put on the Eurostar at Brussels on Saturday and another batch
were sent home by ferry from Ostend. At Stansted in Essex an immigration
service was set up to meet the six flights that arrived from Brussels. The
new arrivals were interviewed photographed and had their passports copied.
Although none of them had been charged with an offence, some of the fans
said they had been warned not to return to Belgium for the duration of the
tournament. Many of them, exhausted from spending three days in jail, hid
their faces beneath their shirts as they were escorted by British Transport
Police on to trains bound for London.
Matt Jones, 22, a driver from Stoke, said he had been arrested in Brussels
at around 10pm on Friday, just two hours after arriving in the city. He
said: "We chose a bar in a side street away from the trouble but had only
drunk about three pints when the police came in. They sprayed CS gas in our
faces, and handcuffed us.
"In the police cell we were allowed one little bit of cake and one bag of
water. There were no phone calls, no representation or anything." Mr Jones
said that many of those caught up in the mass arrests had not travelled to
Belgium to watch the football. One American businessman was detained for 22
hours with England fans before being released.
A consulate official did visit the fans in jail on Saturday, Mr Jones said,
but told them he had to leave early because he had a ticket for the England
v Germany game in the evening. A lifelong Stoke City supporter, Mr Jones
said he would not be travelling to any more England games abroad.
He said: "Even if you tried to talk to the police to ask them what was
happening they would knee you or hit you with a truncheon. It was shocking,
we were treated like scum." Steve, a father of two from Basingstoke,
Hampshire, said English fans had been treated "like animals". The
28-year-old, who owns a property maintenance business, said: "I was let
through a police cordon and arrested.
"They were just targeting anyone who was English. I was beaten with a
truncheon. I've never been in trouble before in my life." Another England
supporter who gave his name as Richard, a 35-year-old painter and decorator
from Southampton, said he was kept with 75 other fans in one cell with only
one toilet in the corner.
The Southampton fan, who has two children, said he was drinking in Reilly's
Bar in Brussels when the police smashed windows and sprayed in CS gas. He
said: "The arrests seemed to be put on for the cameras." Craig Harston, from
Roehampton, estimated that he lost £2,000 worth of possessions, which were
left in a locker at a train station.
He said: "I only got the chance to walk down one street in Belgium. I had
barely been there half an hour before I was arrested." Paul, 27, a builder
from Oldham, said that English fans had only engaged in "banter" with
Turkish fans. He said: "If you were drinking or singing it was enough to be
arrested."
"There was a very small amount of trouble makers but the police arrested
everyone." Before the tournament started the Belgian authorities vowed to
take a tough line with any supporters who stepped out of line. "
from the Telegraph Monday 19th June 2000
Vicente Balvanera
the German fans, assuring them that they had not actually _lost_
the football game after all, that all that was necessary was to
shore up the team again and all would be well, that the 1-0
result was no victory for the English team.
He was dressed in an old-fashioned suit similar to the male
secretary in the film "Gaspar Hauser" (_sheine protocol_).
Vicente Balvanera
v_bal...@usa.net
for the CIOS (Comité Iniciativa Obrera Socialista)
(Socialist Worker Iniciative Committee)
http://www.geocities.com/trotskist_1999/
textos en español:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/1602/