WRP Youth Group
JUNE THIRTYTH
The Fourth International or even Socialism. Sub, Sub reformism.
If you ask for what you do not want that is all you will get.
I guess they do not want to scare away the students with a revolutionary
program.
By doing so they produce a party of non-socialists.
Roger
The WRP website is not complete by any means. If you want to see what the
Young Socialists stand for this can be read in the weekly 'Young Socialist'
newspaper.
rab
--
Roger Blackwell, Norwich, Britain
ICQ 71780619
http://www.blackwell23.freeserve.co.uk
Stephen Diamond
"Roger" <rog...@blackwell23.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> The WRP website is not complete by any means.
Right. When will it incorporate the endorsement of Chirac.
srd
ties
"Stephen Diamond" <steph...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
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SRD lol
B Moran
> Young Socialists stand for this can be read in the weekly 'Young Socialist'
> newspaper.
what the WRP YS stands for after reading the weekly "young socialist"
newspaper:
drinking, "dancing to sounds", football, ice skating, going
occasionally on demos and taking photos of each other like on a school
trip, sucking up to saddam hussein (see also "newsline"- is money
involved here?) (shurely some mistake?)
also a very nice design (almost "punk" infact, but only almost) and
often a headache-inducing "youthful" (haha) colour-scheme. e.g.
red+orange or bright green and purple.
and of course the YS football league results table.
"join the YS: i am interested in (please tick box)
football dances sport athletics sounds the transitional programme
iraq"
(sorry those last two were obviously political and not included).
this is obviously a cariacture, but based on very genuine issues of
"YS". better though is the WRP pamphlet "how to build the young
socialists" with the rules of football (for boys) and netball (for
girls) and how to organise YS leagues in these and other sports. how
about swimming galas. all to secure a future for working class youth,
obviously.
David Price
> this is obviously a cariacture, but based on very genuine issues of
> "YS". better though is the WRP pamphlet "how to build the young
> socialists" with the rules of football (for boys) and netball (for
> girls) and how to organise YS leagues in these and other sports. how
> about swimming galas. all to secure a future for working class youth,
> obviously.
History can be stranger than caricature.
One of Healy's more bizarre ventures was to set up something he called
"Youth Training" which purported to provide training in basic skills
to unemployed youth. The Young Socialists were virtually liquidated
into this organisation.
Legend has it that boxing was one activity available in Youth Training
but had to be withdrawn because it offended Vanessa Redgrave's
petit-bourgeois sensibilities.
From a WRP statement:-
"We support he non-political aims of the Youth Training
movement....[unemployed youth] cannot develop as conscious
participants in political life. We therefore see this task of learning
a skill as standing above politics"
Of course, all this is so remote from Marxism that to call it
revisionism would be dignifying it.
Roger
> History can be stranger than caricature.
>
> One of Healy's more bizarre ventures was to set up something he called
> "Youth Training" which purported to provide training in basic skills
> to unemployed youth. The Young Socialists were virtually liquidated
> into this organisation.
>
> Legend has it that boxing was one activity available in Youth Training
> but had to be withdrawn because it offended Vanessa Redgrave's
> petit-bourgeois sensibilities.
>
> From a WRP statement:-
>
> "We support he non-political aims of the Youth Training
> movement....[unemployed youth] cannot develop as conscious
> participants in political life. We therefore see this task of learning
> a skill as standing above politics"
>
> Of course, all this is so remote from Marxism that to call it
> revisionism would be dignifying it.
Youth training was introduced by the WRP when there were over 3 million
unemployed in Britain, many of them youth. It brought many new people
around the party. The biggest failing was that many party cadres did not
treat it seriously enough otherwise it could have been the start of a mass
youth movement. Of course you were one of those that evidently did not take
it seriously.
David Price
> "David Price" wrote
> [bit snipped]
> > From a WRP statement:-
> >
> > "We support he non-political aims of the Youth Training
> > movement....[unemployed youth] cannot develop as conscious
> > participants in political life. We therefore see this task of learning
> > a skill as standing above politics"
> >
> > Of course, all this is so remote from Marxism that to call it
> > revisionism would be dignifying it.
>
> Youth training was introduced by the WRP when there were over 3 million
> unemployed in Britain, many of them youth. It brought many new people
> around the party. The biggest failing was that many party cadres did not
> treat it seriously enough otherwise it could have been the start of a mass
> youth movement. Of course you were one of those that evidently did not take
> it seriously.
>
Trotskyists put the onus of dealing with unemployment firmly on
capitalism.
From the resolution on youth from the founding conference of the FI: -
"In the fight against unemployment the slogans raise the school age,
organise apprenticeships, make sense only to the extent that the
weight of this must be borne not by the working class but by the big
capitalists"
The resolution goes on to formulate transitional demands to mobilize
unemployed youth as part of the working class against capitalism.
There is no way in which getting a job is a precondition to becoming
part of a revolutionary movement.
The WRP statement emphasising the non-political nature of Youth
Training reveals it as a reformist and liberal exercise. Seen in the
historical context of Healy's drift to the right it becomes clearer
that Youth Training was not just a mistake but a conscious repudiation
of Trotskyism - an attempt to deflect the youth from revolutionary
politics and to seek an accommodation with the trade union
bureaucracy.
B Moran
> > Youth training was introduced by the WRP when there were over 3 million
> > unemployed in Britain, many of them youth. It brought many new people
> > around the party. The biggest failing was that many party cadres did not
> > treat it seriously enough otherwise it could have been the start of a mass
> > youth movement. Of course you were one of those that evidently did not take
> > it seriously.
> >
>
> Trotskyists put the onus of dealing with unemployment firmly on
> capitalism.
>
> The WRP statement emphasising the non-political nature of Youth
> Training reveals it as a reformist and liberal exercise. Seen in the
> historical context of Healy's drift to the right it becomes clearer
> that Youth Training was not just a mistake but a conscious repudiation
> of Trotskyism - an attempt to deflect the youth from revolutionary
> politics and to seek an accommodation with the trade union
> bureaucracy.
well I had wondered what "wrp youth training" was about...the
aforementioned "how to build the ys" pamphlet mentions it in passing,
accompanied with a picture of a girl (and i mean "girl" and not "young
woman") sitting in front of an electric typewriter. but far more
space was taken up with the importance of football or netball.
presumably this was poltically more important.
the pamphlet is incidentally still available from the wrp/"union
books", at 50p i think. , BCM Box 747, London WC1N 3XX
would the wrp member here like to comment on the building of a
revolutionary youth group based around basically sport tournaments and
piss-ups? or am i just "not one of those taking it seriously"....?
how many members does the wrp have today? and where does the money
come from to fund the newsline?
i wouldnt like to suggest that the feature article last week quoting
an iraqi state newspaper as a serious news source (indeed the headline
made much of this, : iraqi paper says it so the item (about iraq and
saddams government) must be true) ; or a wide range of other similar
articles could help answer this question ...haha
Roger
> would the wrp member here like to comment on the building of a
> revolutionary youth group based around basically sport tournaments and
> piss-ups? or am i just "not one of those taking it seriously"....?
What piss ups? You must have the wrong organisation. However, the YS does
organise a range of social activities in order to bring a broader mass of
youth around the organisation. It takes considerable time and effort to
develop a cadre where the most advanced youth are drawn into political
activity. This happens more slowly with other sections of the youth who
appreciate the social programme and have the time to consider the politics
of the YS.
> how many members does the wrp have today? and where does the money
> come from to fund the newsline?
None of your business.
> i wouldnt like to suggest that the feature article last week quoting
> an iraqi state newspaper as a serious news source (indeed the headline
> made much of this, : iraqi paper says it so the item (about iraq and
> saddams government) must be true) ; or a wide range of other similar
> articles could help answer this question ...haha
News Line quotes from many international publications. You obviously share
Bush's view of Iraq.
Guarnot
>> revolutionary youth group based around basically sport tournaments and
>> piss-ups? or am i just "not one of those taking it seriously"....?
>
>What piss ups?
I am almost afraid to ask, but: what is a "piss up"?
geoff collier
believe that the North Americans use it to mean "angry", We would say
"pissed off" in that sense.
Having got that out of the way, I always got the impression that the WRP did
frown on their masses getting drunk, although I expect the actors enjoyed
the odd glass of wine.
geoff
"Guarnot" <gua...@aol.comspamno> wrote in message
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Guarnot
>believe that the North Americans use it to mean "angry", We would say
>"pissed off" in that sense.
Generally, in the U.S., "pissed" meaning "angry" is a short version of "pissed
off," which is still used in its long form.
Thanks for the clarification. The only time I had previously heard the phrase
"piss up" was in connection with a rope.
Bert Byfield
>>although I believe that the North Americans use it to mean "angry", We
>>would say "pissed off" in that sense.
"Pissed" (without "off") is often used in the US for "drunk", as a
secondary definition.
B Moran
> > come from to fund the newsline?
>
> None of your business.
I find the answer "None of your business" interesting. Surely you
mean "the wrp and newsline are funded by its members and donations
from sympathisers"? Or not?
> News Line quotes from many international publications. You obviously share
> Bush's view of Iraq.
What is Bush's view of Iraq? Iraq sure ain't a socialist paradise. The
left - including the likes of the WRP - have more freedom here in
bourgeois England than in Iraq....
And an Iraqi state shitsheet is just another "international
publication". Yeah, right.
David Price
> > and where does the money
> > > come from to fund the newsline?
> >
> > None of your business.
>
> I find the answer "None of your business" interesting. Surely you
> mean "the wrp and newsline are funded by its members and donations
> from sympathisers"? Or not?
Roger is quite correct in this instance. It is none of your or my
business.
It's only if the WRP were caught out taking backhanders from, for
example, Arab bourgeois regimes in return for favourable coverage that
it would become a matter of concern to the wider labour movement.
Einde O'Callaghan
Since in its Healy days the WRP was caught taking backhanders from
Saddam Hussein in return for informing on Iraqi communist dissidents, it
is a matter of some interest for the workers' movement how the WRP,
which seems to have hardly any visible members and seems to sell very
few copies, can afford to produce a daily paper in colour.
Einmde O'Callaghan
Roger
> Since in its Healy days the WRP was caught taking backhanders from
> Saddam Hussein in return for informing on Iraqi communist dissidents, it
> is a matter of some interest for the workers' movement how the WRP,
> which seems to have hardly any visible members and seems to sell very
> few copies, can afford to produce a daily paper in colour.
>
> Einmde O'Callaghan
And this from someone who can't even spell his own name right. And for your
information I don't have a clue how the News Line is funded other than
sales, a monthly fund, and considerable financial sacrifices including fund
raising from some members and supporters of the WRP. As has been discussed
in long gone threads most WRP members never knew about the 'backhanders'.
Roger
"B Moran" wrote
> > News Line quotes from many international publications. You obviously
share
> > Bush's view of Iraq.
>
> What is Bush's view of Iraq?
The same as yours by the look of it. He wants to bomb Iraq and install a US
puppet government. No doubt you support that.
Iraq sure ain't a socialist paradise. The
> left - including the likes of the WRP - have more freedom here in
> bourgeois England than in Iraq....
>
> And an Iraqi state shitsheet is just another "international
> publication". Yeah, right.
Who said anything about Iraq being 'socialist'. Where did you get this shit
about socialism in one country anyway?
Einde O'Callaghan
>
> > Since in its Healy days the WRP was caught taking backhanders from
> > Saddam Hussein in return for informing on Iraqi communist dissidents, it
> > is a matter of some interest for the workers' movement how the WRP,
> > which seems to have hardly any visible members and seems to sell very
> > few copies, can afford to produce a daily paper in colour.
> >
> > Einmde O'Callaghan
>
> And this from someone who can't even spell his own name right. And for your
> information I don't have a clue how the News Line is funded other than
> sales, a monthly fund, and considerable financial sacrifices including fund
> raising from some members and supporters of the WRP. As has been discussed
> in long gone threads most WRP members never knew about the 'backhanders'.
>
know about the backhanders. But once bitten ... I would think that the
unfortunate historical experience would lead the organisation to try to
be a bit more transparent about its finances.
After all Pravda, the legal organ of an illegal organisation, reguarly
used to print lists of the donations from factory groups and several
organisations print lists of donations when they do a fund drive.
Einde O'Callaghan
Stephen Diamond
"Roger" <rog...@blackwell23.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> As has been discussed in long gone threads most WRP members never
> knew about the 'backhanders'.
I don't recall this charge having been proven. If there were real
evidence for the charge, surely the ICL some other sworn enemy of the
WRP would have called for a workers commission to investigate the matter.
srd
David Price
> I don't recall this charge having been proven. If there were real
> evidence for the charge, surely the ICL some other sworn enemy of the
> WRP would have called for a workers commission to investigate the matter.
IIRC this was uncovered by an ICFI control commission set up at the
time the WRP crisis broke.
I'm not sure about the Iraq connection (although the WRP's political
pronouncements are a matter of public knowledge and various
participants have reported how the WRP passed "intelligence" to the
Iraqi regime).
I believe documentary evidence was certainly found of financially
corrupt arrangements with the PLO and the Ghadaffi regime in Libya.
The Ghadaffi connection was the most recent and most bare-faced
arrangement which involved the WRP printing and distributing a Libyan
government propaganda sheet with the same policies being reflected in
the official party press.
It's fair game to criticise the WRP for not politically repudiating
the worst policies and practices of the degenerate period of Healyism.
To the best of my knowledge they've never renounced the "Arab gold"
incidents let alone apologised to the labour movement for them.
But since there isn't a shred of evidence that they're still at it –
apart from circumstantial evidence that their editorial line on
bourgeois nationalist leaders doesn't seem to have changed very much –
I would suggest that unsubstantiated slurs simply play into the hands
of the enemies of the entire labour movement.
vngelis
We asked for a Commission of Enquiry in Greece. The answer by the
local healyite reps was to make Savvas Michael chief of the IC.
The Youth Training centres was also probably a way of generating money
from the state, as employers would be paid a certain sum to take
people on.
vngelis
PS
There are more unemployed now than in 1983
B Moran
>
> The same as yours by the look of it. He wants to bomb Iraq and install a US
> puppet government. No doubt you support that.
Haha. Of course. And there I was thinking I supported a workers'
revolution...
> Iraq sure ain't a socialist paradise. The
> > left - including the likes of the WRP - have more freedom here in
> > bourgeois England than in Iraq....
> >
> > And an Iraqi state shitsheet is just another "international
> > publication". Yeah, right.
>
> Who said anything about Iraq being 'socialist'.
well I presume the Ba'ath party did at some point...
You forgot to comment re the Iraqi state shitsheet...
btw How much money did the WRP get for printing Gadaffis Green Book?
Or why did he ask you to do it? Were you better value than the
Militant?
Roger
> > > What is Bush's view of Iraq?
> >
> > The same as yours by the look of it. He wants to bomb Iraq and install
a US
> > puppet government. No doubt you support that.
>
> Haha. Of course. And there I was thinking I supported a workers'
> revolution...
There's not much evidence of that. At least, you have written nothing of
note so far on this newsgroup.
>
> > Iraq sure ain't a socialist paradise. The
> > > left - including the likes of the WRP - have more freedom here in
> > > bourgeois England than in Iraq....
> > >
> > > And an Iraqi state shitsheet is just another "international
> > > publication". Yeah, right.
> >
> > Who said anything about Iraq being 'socialist'.
>
> well I presume the Ba'ath party did at some point...
> You forgot to comment re the Iraqi state shitsheet...
All capitalist states produce their own propaganda through their media.
That produced by the Iraqi state may be less subtle than that broadcast by
the BBC or in a Hollywood film but it's essence remains propaganda. You
tend to believe more in the propaganda of the imperialist states than the
propaganda of the more oppressed countries in the developing world.
> btw How much money did the WRP get for printing Gadaffis Green Book?
> Or why did he ask you to do it? Were you better value than the
> Militant?
It was a commercial contract that most of us never knew about. There was a
lot of cheap labour about in the WRP at the time, something I'm not
particularly proud of but other organisations had their warts as well.
How much money did the SWP get for printing the capitalist satirical
magazine 'Private Eye'?
geoff collier
It was a commercial contract that *everyone* knew about,. In my early days
the printers were so inefficient that the bundles of Socialist Worker were
wrapped in pages of the magazine.Some of us didn't need to buy it for years.
However the point is that the WRP had an improper relationship with a ruling
class. Private Eye is just a relatively small business.
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