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George Orwell, left politics, modern liberals and the BBC
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RH
Sep 3, 2012, 5:22:00 PM9/3/12
to
George Orwell, left politics, modern liberals and the BBC
Posted on September 3, 2012
Robert Henderson
The “wrong” type of left wingery
The BBC has refused (http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/aug/22/bbc-
george-orwell-statue-left-wing) to accept a statue of their one-time
employee George Orwell on the grounds that the outgoing director-
general Mark Thompson thinks the great political novelist and essayist
is “too left wing for the BBC”. Do stop sniggering at the back.
Orwell was indubitably left-wing , being in favour of widespread
state intervention both socially and economically. Here is some of
what he thought needed to be done domestically in 1941 from his
long essay The Lion and the Unicorn:
“I. Nationalization of land, mines, railways, banks and major
industries.
II. Limitation of incomes, on such a scale that the highest tax-free
income in Britain does not exceed the lowest by more than ten to on
III. Reform of the educational system along democratic lines….. there
are certain immediate steps that we could take towards a democratic
educational system. We could start by abolishing the autonomy of the
public schools and the older universities and flooding them with State-
aided pupils chosen simply on grounds of ability… “(Part III section
II http://theorwellprize.co.uk/george-orwell/by-orwell/essays-and-other-works/the-lion-and-the-unicorn-socialism-and-the-english-genius/)
Socialism is usually defined as “common ownership of the means of
production”. Crudely: the State, representing the whole nation, owns
everything, and everyone is a State employee. This does not mean that
people are stripped of private possessions such as clothes and
furniture, but it does mean that all productive goods, such as land,
mines, ships and machinery, are the property of the State….
However, it has become clear in the last few years that “common
ownership of the means of production” is not in itself a sufficient
definition of Socialism. One must also add the following: approximate
equality of incomes (it need be no more than approximate), political
democracy, and abolition of all hereditary privilege, especially in
education. These are simply the necessary safeguards against the
reappearance of a class-system. Centralized ownership has very little
meaning unless the mass of the people are living roughly upon an equal
level, and have some kind of control over the government. “The State”
may come to mean no more than a self-elected political party, and
oligarchy and privilege can return, based on power rather than on
money. …(ibid Part II section )
These policies and concepts would be considered hard left today and
risibly impractical by the modern liberal left, but there was
nothing outlandish or extreme about such views in 1941. They were
mainstream politics for the 1940s’ counterparts of those who are
today part of the liberal left. What Orwell saw as necessary to
rescue Britain was enacted a few years later when the Labour Party
campaigned in 1945 on a platform of nationalisation and received a
massive popular vote. Labour also kept its word with knobs on when
in power between 1945 to 1951 when Clem Attlee’s government carried
through what was arguably the most extensive nationalisation
programme ever in an industrialised country with an elected
government. (The major nationalisations were coal, railways, inland
waterways, some road haulage and passenger transport, iron and
steel, electricity, local authority gas providers , Cable and
Wireless, Thomas Cook and Son and the Bank of England. It also made
the large majority of health provision public through the creation of
the taxpayer-funded NHS, greatly expanded publicly funded secondary
education and put benefits on a modern footing with the sweeping away
of the remnants of the old Poor Law regime and its replacement with a
system of universal insurance and benefits. )
The ideas which the mainstream left embraced in the 1940s survived
long after wards. Large scale nationalisation and state control of
much of public life was not considered beyond the Pale until the
Labour Party had lost four elections and allowed itself to be
seduced into accepting globalisation hook, line and sinker by Tony
Blair in the 1990s. Anyone doubting this should read the 1983 Labour
Election manifesto (http://www.labour-party.org.uk/manifestos/
1983/1983-labour-manifesto.shtml) which was memorably but incorrectly
described as the longest suicide note in history by the Labour MP
Gerald Kaufman.
The manifesto, apart from laying out considerable further state
involvement in industry and areas such as education and training, had
two other very interesting policies: withdrawal from what was then
the European Economic Area (now the EU) and protectionist measures to
safeguard British industry and commerce.
Read more at http://englandcalling.wordpress.com/2012/09/03/george-orwell-left-politics-modern-liberals-and-the-bbc/
Posted on September 3, 2012
Robert Henderson
The “wrong” type of left wingery
The BBC has refused (http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/aug/22/bbc-
george-orwell-statue-left-wing) to accept a statue of their one-time
employee George Orwell on the grounds that the outgoing director-
general Mark Thompson thinks the great political novelist and essayist
is “too left wing for the BBC”. Do stop sniggering at the back.
Orwell was indubitably left-wing , being in favour of widespread
state intervention both socially and economically. Here is some of
what he thought needed to be done domestically in 1941 from his
long essay The Lion and the Unicorn:
“I. Nationalization of land, mines, railways, banks and major
industries.
II. Limitation of incomes, on such a scale that the highest tax-free
income in Britain does not exceed the lowest by more than ten to on
III. Reform of the educational system along democratic lines….. there
are certain immediate steps that we could take towards a democratic
educational system. We could start by abolishing the autonomy of the
public schools and the older universities and flooding them with State-
aided pupils chosen simply on grounds of ability… “(Part III section
II http://theorwellprize.co.uk/george-orwell/by-orwell/essays-and-other-works/the-lion-and-the-unicorn-socialism-and-the-english-genius/)
Socialism is usually defined as “common ownership of the means of
production”. Crudely: the State, representing the whole nation, owns
everything, and everyone is a State employee. This does not mean that
people are stripped of private possessions such as clothes and
furniture, but it does mean that all productive goods, such as land,
mines, ships and machinery, are the property of the State….
However, it has become clear in the last few years that “common
ownership of the means of production” is not in itself a sufficient
definition of Socialism. One must also add the following: approximate
equality of incomes (it need be no more than approximate), political
democracy, and abolition of all hereditary privilege, especially in
education. These are simply the necessary safeguards against the
reappearance of a class-system. Centralized ownership has very little
meaning unless the mass of the people are living roughly upon an equal
level, and have some kind of control over the government. “The State”
may come to mean no more than a self-elected political party, and
oligarchy and privilege can return, based on power rather than on
money. …(ibid Part II section )
These policies and concepts would be considered hard left today and
risibly impractical by the modern liberal left, but there was
nothing outlandish or extreme about such views in 1941. They were
mainstream politics for the 1940s’ counterparts of those who are
today part of the liberal left. What Orwell saw as necessary to
rescue Britain was enacted a few years later when the Labour Party
campaigned in 1945 on a platform of nationalisation and received a
massive popular vote. Labour also kept its word with knobs on when
in power between 1945 to 1951 when Clem Attlee’s government carried
through what was arguably the most extensive nationalisation
programme ever in an industrialised country with an elected
government. (The major nationalisations were coal, railways, inland
waterways, some road haulage and passenger transport, iron and
steel, electricity, local authority gas providers , Cable and
Wireless, Thomas Cook and Son and the Bank of England. It also made
the large majority of health provision public through the creation of
the taxpayer-funded NHS, greatly expanded publicly funded secondary
education and put benefits on a modern footing with the sweeping away
of the remnants of the old Poor Law regime and its replacement with a
system of universal insurance and benefits. )
The ideas which the mainstream left embraced in the 1940s survived
long after wards. Large scale nationalisation and state control of
much of public life was not considered beyond the Pale until the
Labour Party had lost four elections and allowed itself to be
seduced into accepting globalisation hook, line and sinker by Tony
Blair in the 1990s. Anyone doubting this should read the 1983 Labour
Election manifesto (http://www.labour-party.org.uk/manifestos/
1983/1983-labour-manifesto.shtml) which was memorably but incorrectly
described as the longest suicide note in history by the Labour MP
Gerald Kaufman.
The manifesto, apart from laying out considerable further state
involvement in industry and areas such as education and training, had
two other very interesting policies: withdrawal from what was then
the European Economic Area (now the EU) and protectionist measures to
safeguard British industry and commerce.
Read more at http://englandcalling.wordpress.com/2012/09/03/george-orwell-left-politics-modern-liberals-and-the-bbc/
Farmer Giles
Sep 3, 2012, 5:51:13 PM9/3/12
to
completely superfluous to requirements here. Why, it was only very
recently that the unassailable intellectual giant of these forums - one
Mr A Lard - delivered his very own highly-considered (by him) 'analysis'
of the late, great Eric Arthur Blair.
What on earth can you hope to achieve after the great Mr Lard, with his
usual spellbinding perspicacity, has delivered his final and definitive
view that Orwell was no more than a 'typical thick lefty
pseudo-intellectual snob/slob'?
BeamMeUpScotty
Sep 3, 2012, 7:27:52 PM9/3/12
to
On 9/3/2012 5:51 PM, Farmer Giles wrote:
> On 03/09/2012 22:22, RH wrote:
>> George Orwell, left politics, modern liberals and the BBC
>>
>> Posted on September 3, 2012
>>
>>
>> Robert Henderson
>>
>> The �wrong� type of left wingery
> On 03/09/2012 22:22, RH wrote:
>> George Orwell, left politics, modern liberals and the BBC
>>
>> Posted on September 3, 2012
>>
>>
>> Robert Henderson
>>
>>
>> The BBC has refused (http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/aug/22/bbc-
>> george-orwell-statue-left-wing) to accept a statue of their one-time
>> employee George Orwell on the grounds that the outgoing director-
>> general Mark Thompson thinks the great political novelist and essayist
>> is �too left wing for the BBC�. Do stop sniggering at the back.
>> The BBC has refused (http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/aug/22/bbc-
>> george-orwell-statue-left-wing) to accept a statue of their one-time
>> employee George Orwell on the grounds that the outgoing director-
>> general Mark Thompson thinks the great political novelist and essayist
>>
>> Orwell was indubitably left-wing , being in favour of widespread
>> state intervention both socially and economically. Here is some of
>> what he thought needed to be done domestically in 1941 from his
>> long essay The Lion and the Unicorn:
>>
>> �I. Nationalization of land, mines, railways, banks and major
>> Orwell was indubitably left-wing , being in favour of widespread
>> state intervention both socially and economically. Here is some of
>> what he thought needed to be done domestically in 1941 from his
>> long essay The Lion and the Unicorn:
>>
>> industries.
>>
>> II. Limitation of incomes, on such a scale that the highest tax-free
>> income in Britain does not exceed the lowest by more than ten to on
>>
>> III. Reform of the educational system along democratic lines�.. there
>>
>> II. Limitation of incomes, on such a scale that the highest tax-free
>> income in Britain does not exceed the lowest by more than ten to on
>>
>> are certain immediate steps that we could take towards a democratic
>> educational system. We could start by abolishing the autonomy of the
>> public schools and the older universities and flooding them with State-
>> aided pupils chosen simply on grounds of ability� �(Part III section
>> educational system. We could start by abolishing the autonomy of the
>> public schools and the older universities and flooding them with State-
>> II
>> http://theorwellprize.co.uk/george-orwell/by-orwell/essays-and-other-works/the-lion-and-the-unicorn-socialism-and-the-english-genius/)
>>
>>
>> Socialism is usually defined as �common ownership of the means of
>> production�. Crudely: the State, representing the whole nation, owns
>> everything, and everyone is a State employee. This does not mean that
>> people are stripped of private possessions such as clothes and
>> furniture, but it does mean that all productive goods, such as land,
>> mines, ships and machinery, are the property of the State�.
>> people are stripped of private possessions such as clothes and
>> furniture, but it does mean that all productive goods, such as land,
>>
>> However, it has become clear in the last few years that �common
>> ownership of the means of production� is not in itself a sufficient
>> definition of Socialism. One must also add the following: approximate
>> equality of incomes (it need be no more than approximate), political
>> democracy, and abolition of all hereditary privilege, especially in
>> education. These are simply the necessary safeguards against the
>> reappearance of a class-system. Centralized ownership has very little
>> meaning unless the mass of the people are living roughly upon an equal
>> level, and have some kind of control over the government. �The State�
>> equality of incomes (it need be no more than approximate), political
>> democracy, and abolition of all hereditary privilege, especially in
>> education. These are simply the necessary safeguards against the
>> reappearance of a class-system. Centralized ownership has very little
>> meaning unless the mass of the people are living roughly upon an equal
>> may come to mean no more than a self-elected political party, and
>> oligarchy and privilege can return, based on power rather than on
>> money. �(ibid Part II section )
>> oligarchy and privilege can return, based on power rather than on
>>
>> These policies and concepts would be considered hard left today and
>> risibly impractical by the modern liberal left, but there was
>> nothing outlandish or extreme about such views in 1941. They were
>> mainstream politics for the 1940s� counterparts of those who are
>> These policies and concepts would be considered hard left today and
>> risibly impractical by the modern liberal left, but there was
>> nothing outlandish or extreme about such views in 1941. They were
>> today part of the liberal left. What Orwell saw as necessary to
>> rescue Britain was enacted a few years later when the Labour Party
>> campaigned in 1945 on a platform of nationalisation and received a
>> massive popular vote. Labour also kept its word with knobs on when
>> in power between 1945 to 1951 when Clem Attlee�s government carried
>> rescue Britain was enacted a few years later when the Labour Party
>> campaigned in 1945 on a platform of nationalisation and received a
>> massive popular vote. Labour also kept its word with knobs on when
As for Orwell, he did describe the Left fairly well, or you could work
that other $9 word into this sentence to describe Orwell.
RH
Sep 4, 2012, 1:25:58 AM9/4/12
to
On Sep 3, 10:51 pm, Farmer Giles <gi...@nospam.com> wrote:
> On 03/09/2012 22:22, RH wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > George Orwell, left politics, modern liberals and the BBC
>
> > Posted on September 3, 2012
>
> > Robert Henderson
>
> > The “wrong” type of left wingery
>
> > The BBC has refused (http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/aug/22/bbc-
> > george-orwell-statue-left-wing) to accept a statue of their one-time
> > employee George Orwell on the grounds that the outgoing director-
> > general Mark Thompson thinks the great political novelist and essayist
> > is “too left wing for the BBC”. Do stop sniggering at the back.
>
> > Orwell was indubitably left-wing , being in favour of widespread
> > state intervention both socially and economically. Here is some of
> > what he thought needed to be done domestically in 1941 from his
> > long essay The Lion and the Unicorn:
>
> > “I. Nationalization of land, mines, railways, banks and major
> > industries.
>
> > II. Limitation of incomes, on such a scale that the highest tax-free
> > income in Britain does not exceed the lowest by more than ten to on
>
> > III. Reform of the educational system along democratic lines….. there
> > are certain immediate steps that we could take towards a democratic
> > educational system. We could start by abolishing the autonomy of the
> > public schools and the older universities and flooding them with State-
> > aided pupils chosen simply on grounds of ability… “(Part III section
> > IIhttp://theorwellprize.co.uk/george-orwell/by-orwell/essays-and-other-...)
> On 03/09/2012 22:22, RH wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > George Orwell, left politics, modern liberals and the BBC
>
> > Posted on September 3, 2012
>
> > Robert Henderson
>
> > The “wrong” type of left wingery
>
> > The BBC has refused (http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/aug/22/bbc-
> > george-orwell-statue-left-wing) to accept a statue of their one-time
> > employee George Orwell on the grounds that the outgoing director-
> > general Mark Thompson thinks the great political novelist and essayist
> > is “too left wing for the BBC”. Do stop sniggering at the back.
>
> > Orwell was indubitably left-wing , being in favour of widespread
> > state intervention both socially and economically. Here is some of
> > what he thought needed to be done domestically in 1941 from his
> > long essay The Lion and the Unicorn:
>
> > “I. Nationalization of land, mines, railways, banks and major
> > industries.
>
> > II. Limitation of incomes, on such a scale that the highest tax-free
> > income in Britain does not exceed the lowest by more than ten to on
>
> > III. Reform of the educational system along democratic lines….. there
> > are certain immediate steps that we could take towards a democratic
> > educational system. We could start by abolishing the autonomy of the
> > public schools and the older universities and flooding them with State-
> > aided pupils chosen simply on grounds of ability… “(Part III section
>
> This is all very good, Robert, but you should realise that it is also
> completely superfluous to requirements here. Why, it was only very
> recently that the unassailable intellectual giant of these forums - one
> Mr A Lard - delivered his very own highly-considered (by him) 'analysis'
> of the late, great Eric Arthur Blair.
>
> What on earth can you hope to achieve after the great Mr Lard, with his
> usual spellbinding perspicacity, has delivered his final and definitive
> view that Orwell was no more than a 'typical thick lefty
> pseudo-intellectual snob/slob'?
Ah yes, FG , the hilarious limitation of the 1947 vintage valve
> This is all very good, Robert, but you should realise that it is also
> completely superfluous to requirements here. Why, it was only very
> recently that the unassailable intellectual giant of these forums - one
> Mr A Lard - delivered his very own highly-considered (by him) 'analysis'
> of the late, great Eric Arthur Blair.
>
> What on earth can you hope to achieve after the great Mr Lard, with his
> usual spellbinding perspicacity, has delivered his final and definitive
> view that Orwell was no more than a 'typical thick lefty
> pseudo-intellectual snob/slob'?
computer...When oh when will its owner do the decent thing and have it
dismantled.... RH
DVH
Sep 4, 2012, 2:05:45 AM9/4/12
to
"BeamMeUpScotty" <ThenDestro...@blackhole.nebulax.com> wrote in
message news:50453CF8...@blackhole.nebulax.com...
> "Perspicacity" Are you getting paid by the word to write this shit?
Farmer Giles
Sep 4, 2012, 2:43:18 AM9/4/12
to
Farmer Giles
Sep 4, 2012, 2:47:02 AM9/4/12
to
On 04/09/2012 00:27, BeamMeUpScotty wrote:
> On 9/3/2012 5:51 PM, Farmer Giles wrote:
>> On 03/09/2012 22:22, RH wrote:
>>> George Orwell, left politics, modern liberals and the BBC
>>>
>>> Posted on September 3, 2012
>>>
>>>
>>> Robert Henderson
>>>
>>> The “wrong” type of left wingery
> On 9/3/2012 5:51 PM, Farmer Giles wrote:
>> On 03/09/2012 22:22, RH wrote:
>>> George Orwell, left politics, modern liberals and the BBC
>>>
>>> Posted on September 3, 2012
>>>
>>>
>>> Robert Henderson
>>>
>>>
>>> The BBC has refused (http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/aug/22/bbc-
>>> george-orwell-statue-left-wing) to accept a statue of their one-time
>>> employee George Orwell on the grounds that the outgoing director-
>>> general Mark Thompson thinks the great political novelist and essayist
>>> is “too left wing for the BBC”. Do stop sniggering at the back.
>>> The BBC has refused (http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/aug/22/bbc-
>>> george-orwell-statue-left-wing) to accept a statue of their one-time
>>> employee George Orwell on the grounds that the outgoing director-
>>> general Mark Thompson thinks the great political novelist and essayist
>>>
>>> Orwell was indubitably left-wing , being in favour of widespread
>>> state intervention both socially and economically. Here is some of
>>> what he thought needed to be done domestically in 1941 from his
>>> long essay The Lion and the Unicorn:
>>>
>>> “I. Nationalization of land, mines, railways, banks and major
>>> Orwell was indubitably left-wing , being in favour of widespread
>>> state intervention both socially and economically. Here is some of
>>> what he thought needed to be done domestically in 1941 from his
>>> long essay The Lion and the Unicorn:
>>>
>>> industries.
>>>
>>> II. Limitation of incomes, on such a scale that the highest tax-free
>>> income in Britain does not exceed the lowest by more than ten to on
>>>
>>> III. Reform of the educational system along democratic lines….. there
>>>
>>> II. Limitation of incomes, on such a scale that the highest tax-free
>>> income in Britain does not exceed the lowest by more than ten to on
>>>
>>> are certain immediate steps that we could take towards a democratic
>>> educational system. We could start by abolishing the autonomy of the
>>> public schools and the older universities and flooding them with State-
>>> aided pupils chosen simply on grounds of ability… “(Part III section
>>> educational system. We could start by abolishing the autonomy of the
>>> public schools and the older universities and flooding them with State-
>>> II
>>> http://theorwellprize.co.uk/george-orwell/by-orwell/essays-and-other-works/the-lion-and-the-unicorn-socialism-and-the-english-genius/)
>>>
>>>
>>> Socialism is usually defined as “common ownership of the means of
>>> production”. Crudely: the State, representing the whole nation, owns
>>> everything, and everyone is a State employee. This does not mean that
>>> people are stripped of private possessions such as clothes and
>>> furniture, but it does mean that all productive goods, such as land,
>>> mines, ships and machinery, are the property of the State….
>>> people are stripped of private possessions such as clothes and
>>> furniture, but it does mean that all productive goods, such as land,
>>>
>>> However, it has become clear in the last few years that “common
>>> ownership of the means of production” is not in itself a sufficient
>>> definition of Socialism. One must also add the following: approximate
>>> equality of incomes (it need be no more than approximate), political
>>> democracy, and abolition of all hereditary privilege, especially in
>>> education. These are simply the necessary safeguards against the
>>> reappearance of a class-system. Centralized ownership has very little
>>> meaning unless the mass of the people are living roughly upon an equal
>>> level, and have some kind of control over the government. “The State”
>>> equality of incomes (it need be no more than approximate), political
>>> democracy, and abolition of all hereditary privilege, especially in
>>> education. These are simply the necessary safeguards against the
>>> reappearance of a class-system. Centralized ownership has very little
>>> meaning unless the mass of the people are living roughly upon an equal
>>> may come to mean no more than a self-elected political party, and
>>> oligarchy and privilege can return, based on power rather than on
>>> money. …(ibid Part II section )
>>> oligarchy and privilege can return, based on power rather than on
>>>
>>> These policies and concepts would be considered hard left today and
>>> risibly impractical by the modern liberal left, but there was
>>> nothing outlandish or extreme about such views in 1941. They were
>>> mainstream politics for the 1940s’ counterparts of those who are
>>> These policies and concepts would be considered hard left today and
>>> risibly impractical by the modern liberal left, but there was
>>> nothing outlandish or extreme about such views in 1941. They were
>>> today part of the liberal left. What Orwell saw as necessary to
>>> rescue Britain was enacted a few years later when the Labour Party
>>> campaigned in 1945 on a platform of nationalisation and received a
>>> massive popular vote. Labour also kept its word with knobs on when
>>> in power between 1945 to 1951 when Clem Attlee’s government carried
>>> rescue Britain was enacted a few years later when the Labour Party
>>> campaigned in 1945 on a platform of nationalisation and received a
>>> massive popular vote. Labour also kept its word with knobs on when
abelard
Sep 4, 2012, 5:07:28 AM9/4/12
to
On Mon, 3 Sep 2012 14:22:00 -0700 (PDT), RH <anywh...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>The manifesto, apart from laying out considerable further state
>involvement in industry and areas such as education and training, had
>two other very interesting policies: withdrawal from what was then
>the European Economic Area (now the EU) and protectionist measures to
>safeguard British industry and commerce.
that is misrepresentation...
wrote:
>The manifesto, apart from laying out considerable further state
>involvement in industry and areas such as education and training, had
>two other very interesting policies: withdrawal from what was then
>the European Economic Area (now the EU) and protectionist measures to
>safeguard British industry and commerce.
BeamMeUpScotty
Sep 4, 2012, 5:23:18 PM9/4/12
to
On 9/4/2012 2:47 AM, Farmer Giles wrote:
> On 04/09/2012 00:27, BeamMeUpScotty wrote:
>> On 9/3/2012 5:51 PM, Farmer Giles wrote:
>>> On 03/09/2012 22:22, RH wrote:
>>>> George Orwell, left politics, modern liberals and the BBC
>>>>
>>>> Posted on September 3, 2012
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Robert Henderson
>>>>
>>>> The �wrong� type of left wingery
> On 04/09/2012 00:27, BeamMeUpScotty wrote:
>> On 9/3/2012 5:51 PM, Farmer Giles wrote:
>>> On 03/09/2012 22:22, RH wrote:
>>>> George Orwell, left politics, modern liberals and the BBC
>>>>
>>>> Posted on September 3, 2012
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Robert Henderson
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The BBC has refused (http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/aug/22/bbc-
>>>> george-orwell-statue-left-wing) to accept a statue of their one-time
>>>> employee George Orwell on the grounds that the outgoing director-
>>>> general Mark Thompson thinks the great political novelist and essayist
>>>> is �too left wing for the BBC�. Do stop sniggering at the back.
>>>> The BBC has refused (http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/aug/22/bbc-
>>>> george-orwell-statue-left-wing) to accept a statue of their one-time
>>>> employee George Orwell on the grounds that the outgoing director-
>>>> general Mark Thompson thinks the great political novelist and essayist
>>>>
>>>> Orwell was indubitably left-wing , being in favour of widespread
>>>> state intervention both socially and economically. Here is some of
>>>> what he thought needed to be done domestically in 1941 from his
>>>> long essay The Lion and the Unicorn:
>>>>
>>>> �I. Nationalization of land, mines, railways, banks and major
>>>> Orwell was indubitably left-wing , being in favour of widespread
>>>> state intervention both socially and economically. Here is some of
>>>> what he thought needed to be done domestically in 1941 from his
>>>> long essay The Lion and the Unicorn:
>>>>
>>>> industries.
>>>>
>>>> II. Limitation of incomes, on such a scale that the highest tax-free
>>>> income in Britain does not exceed the lowest by more than ten to on
>>>>
>>>> III. Reform of the educational system along democratic lines�..
>>>>
>>>> II. Limitation of incomes, on such a scale that the highest tax-free
>>>> income in Britain does not exceed the lowest by more than ten to on
>>>>
>>>> there
>>>> are certain immediate steps that we could take towards a democratic
>>>> educational system. We could start by abolishing the autonomy of the
>>>> public schools and the older universities and flooding them with State-
>>>> aided pupils chosen simply on grounds of ability� �(Part III section
>>>> are certain immediate steps that we could take towards a democratic
>>>> educational system. We could start by abolishing the autonomy of the
>>>> public schools and the older universities and flooding them with State-
>>>> II
>>>> http://theorwellprize.co.uk/george-orwell/by-orwell/essays-and-other-works/the-lion-and-the-unicorn-socialism-and-the-english-genius/)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Socialism is usually defined as �common ownership of the means of
>>>> production�. Crudely: the State, representing the whole nation, owns
>>>> everything, and everyone is a State employee. This does not mean that
>>>> people are stripped of private possessions such as clothes and
>>>> furniture, but it does mean that all productive goods, such as land,
>>>> mines, ships and machinery, are the property of the State�.
>>>> people are stripped of private possessions such as clothes and
>>>> furniture, but it does mean that all productive goods, such as land,
>>>>
>>>> However, it has become clear in the last few years that �common
>>>> ownership of the means of production� is not in itself a sufficient
>>>> definition of Socialism. One must also add the following: approximate
>>>> equality of incomes (it need be no more than approximate), political
>>>> democracy, and abolition of all hereditary privilege, especially in
>>>> education. These are simply the necessary safeguards against the
>>>> reappearance of a class-system. Centralized ownership has very little
>>>> meaning unless the mass of the people are living roughly upon an equal
>>>> level, and have some kind of control over the government. �The State�
>>>> equality of incomes (it need be no more than approximate), political
>>>> democracy, and abolition of all hereditary privilege, especially in
>>>> education. These are simply the necessary safeguards against the
>>>> reappearance of a class-system. Centralized ownership has very little
>>>> meaning unless the mass of the people are living roughly upon an equal
>>>> may come to mean no more than a self-elected political party, and
>>>> oligarchy and privilege can return, based on power rather than on
>>>> money. �(ibid Part II section )
>>>> oligarchy and privilege can return, based on power rather than on
>>>>
>>>> These policies and concepts would be considered hard left today and
>>>> risibly impractical by the modern liberal left, but there was
>>>> nothing outlandish or extreme about such views in 1941. They were
>>>> mainstream politics for the 1940s� counterparts of those who are
>>>> These policies and concepts would be considered hard left today and
>>>> risibly impractical by the modern liberal left, but there was
>>>> nothing outlandish or extreme about such views in 1941. They were
>>>> today part of the liberal left. What Orwell saw as necessary to
>>>> rescue Britain was enacted a few years later when the Labour Party
>>>> campaigned in 1945 on a platform of nationalisation and received a
>>>> massive popular vote. Labour also kept its word with knobs on when
>>>> in power between 1945 to 1951 when Clem Attlee�s government carried
>>>> rescue Britain was enacted a few years later when the Labour Party
>>>> campaigned in 1945 on a platform of nationalisation and received a
>>>> massive popular vote. Labour also kept its word with knobs on when
genius".
Farmer Giles
Sep 5, 2012, 3:22:32 AM9/5/12
to
On 04/09/2012 22:23, BeamMeUpScotty wrote:
> On 9/4/2012 2:47 AM, Farmer Giles wrote:
>> On 04/09/2012 00:27, BeamMeUpScotty wrote:
>>> On 9/3/2012 5:51 PM, Farmer Giles wrote:
>>>> On 03/09/2012 22:22, RH wrote:
>>>>> George Orwell, left politics, modern liberals and the BBC
>>>>>
>>>>> Posted on September 3, 2012
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Robert Henderson
>>>>>
>>>>> The “wrong” type of left wingery
> On 9/4/2012 2:47 AM, Farmer Giles wrote:
>> On 04/09/2012 00:27, BeamMeUpScotty wrote:
>>> On 9/3/2012 5:51 PM, Farmer Giles wrote:
>>>> On 03/09/2012 22:22, RH wrote:
>>>>> George Orwell, left politics, modern liberals and the BBC
>>>>>
>>>>> Posted on September 3, 2012
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Robert Henderson
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The BBC has refused (http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/aug/22/bbc-
>>>>> george-orwell-statue-left-wing) to accept a statue of their one-time
>>>>> employee George Orwell on the grounds that the outgoing director-
>>>>> general Mark Thompson thinks the great political novelist and essayist
>>>>> is “too left wing for the BBC”. Do stop sniggering at the back.
>>>>> The BBC has refused (http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/aug/22/bbc-
>>>>> george-orwell-statue-left-wing) to accept a statue of their one-time
>>>>> employee George Orwell on the grounds that the outgoing director-
>>>>> general Mark Thompson thinks the great political novelist and essayist
>>>>>
>>>>> Orwell was indubitably left-wing , being in favour of widespread
>>>>> state intervention both socially and economically. Here is some of
>>>>> what he thought needed to be done domestically in 1941 from his
>>>>> long essay The Lion and the Unicorn:
>>>>>
>>>>> “I. Nationalization of land, mines, railways, banks and major
>>>>> Orwell was indubitably left-wing , being in favour of widespread
>>>>> state intervention both socially and economically. Here is some of
>>>>> what he thought needed to be done domestically in 1941 from his
>>>>> long essay The Lion and the Unicorn:
>>>>>
>>>>> industries.
>>>>>
>>>>> II. Limitation of incomes, on such a scale that the highest tax-free
>>>>> income in Britain does not exceed the lowest by more than ten to on
>>>>>
>>>>> III. Reform of the educational system along democratic lines…..
>>>>>
>>>>> II. Limitation of incomes, on such a scale that the highest tax-free
>>>>> income in Britain does not exceed the lowest by more than ten to on
>>>>>
>>>>> there
>>>>> are certain immediate steps that we could take towards a democratic
>>>>> educational system. We could start by abolishing the autonomy of the
>>>>> public schools and the older universities and flooding them with State-
>>>>> aided pupils chosen simply on grounds of ability… “(Part III section
>>>>> are certain immediate steps that we could take towards a democratic
>>>>> educational system. We could start by abolishing the autonomy of the
>>>>> public schools and the older universities and flooding them with State-
>>>>> II
>>>>> http://theorwellprize.co.uk/george-orwell/by-orwell/essays-and-other-works/the-lion-and-the-unicorn-socialism-and-the-english-genius/)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Socialism is usually defined as “common ownership of the means of
>>>>> production”. Crudely: the State, representing the whole nation, owns
>>>>> everything, and everyone is a State employee. This does not mean that
>>>>> people are stripped of private possessions such as clothes and
>>>>> furniture, but it does mean that all productive goods, such as land,
>>>>> mines, ships and machinery, are the property of the State….
>>>>> people are stripped of private possessions such as clothes and
>>>>> furniture, but it does mean that all productive goods, such as land,
>>>>>
>>>>> However, it has become clear in the last few years that “common
>>>>> ownership of the means of production” is not in itself a sufficient
>>>>> definition of Socialism. One must also add the following: approximate
>>>>> equality of incomes (it need be no more than approximate), political
>>>>> democracy, and abolition of all hereditary privilege, especially in
>>>>> education. These are simply the necessary safeguards against the
>>>>> reappearance of a class-system. Centralized ownership has very little
>>>>> meaning unless the mass of the people are living roughly upon an equal
>>>>> level, and have some kind of control over the government. “The State”
>>>>> equality of incomes (it need be no more than approximate), political
>>>>> democracy, and abolition of all hereditary privilege, especially in
>>>>> education. These are simply the necessary safeguards against the
>>>>> reappearance of a class-system. Centralized ownership has very little
>>>>> meaning unless the mass of the people are living roughly upon an equal
>>>>> may come to mean no more than a self-elected political party, and
>>>>> oligarchy and privilege can return, based on power rather than on
>>>>> money. …(ibid Part II section )
>>>>> oligarchy and privilege can return, based on power rather than on
>>>>>
>>>>> These policies and concepts would be considered hard left today and
>>>>> risibly impractical by the modern liberal left, but there was
>>>>> nothing outlandish or extreme about such views in 1941. They were
>>>>> mainstream politics for the 1940s’ counterparts of those who are
>>>>> These policies and concepts would be considered hard left today and
>>>>> risibly impractical by the modern liberal left, but there was
>>>>> nothing outlandish or extreme about such views in 1941. They were
>>>>> today part of the liberal left. What Orwell saw as necessary to
>>>>> rescue Britain was enacted a few years later when the Labour Party
>>>>> campaigned in 1945 on a platform of nationalisation and received a
>>>>> massive popular vote. Labour also kept its word with knobs on when
>>>>> in power between 1945 to 1951 when Clem Attlee’s government carried
>>>>> rescue Britain was enacted a few years later when the Labour Party
>>>>> campaigned in 1945 on a platform of nationalisation and received a
>>>>> massive popular vote. Labour also kept its word with knobs on when
RH
Sep 5, 2012, 6:59:18 AM9/5/12
to
On Sep 4, 10:07 am, abelard <abela...@abelard.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 3 Sep 2012 14:22:00 -0700 (PDT), RH <anywhere...@gmail.com>
previously thought.... RH
> On Mon, 3 Sep 2012 14:22:00 -0700 (PDT), RH <anywhere...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >The manifesto, apart from laying out considerable further state
> >involvement in industry and areas such as education and training, had
> >two other very interesting policies: withdrawal from what was then
> >the European Economic Area (now the EU) and protectionist measures to
> >safeguard British industry and commerce.
>
> that is misrepresentation...
Oh dear, the Bonkers 9000's memory cache is even smaller than
>
> >The manifesto, apart from laying out considerable further state
> >involvement in industry and areas such as education and training, had
> >two other very interesting policies: withdrawal from what was then
> >the European Economic Area (now the EU) and protectionist measures to
> >safeguard British industry and commerce.
>
> that is misrepresentation...
previously thought.... RH
abelard
Sep 5, 2012, 6:41:51 PM9/5/12
to
On Wed, 5 Sep 2012 03:59:18 -0700 (PDT), RH <anywh...@gmail.com>
wrote:
your claim remains misrepresentation
wrote:
Léa Smith
Oct 15, 2012, 12:20:38 AM10/15/12
to
I have little use for most of what calls itself the left or right, or Modernism generally; Orwell was a fine writer in a technical sense but I think he is ultimately little more than a polished up Erik Fromm ("The Authoritarian Personality"); and his 'anarchistic' style of Cultural Marxism is ultimately far more dangerous than Soviet economic stupidity.
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