Why the minimum wage is a bad idea...
sa...@area24.residence.gatech.edu
>: pnh...@psu.edu (Philippe Hajjar) wrote:
>: >In article <4dbno4$2h...@navajo.gate.net>, cal...@gate.net (Caliban) wrote:
>: >
>: >>Actually, I support raising the minimum wage from its
>: >>current level up to about $9 per hour. What do you think
>: >>is adequate, and why?
>: >
>: >But this will result in the loss of many jobs.
>:
>: You know, many conservatives make this empty assertion, but
>: they have never provided a mechanism by which this claim is
>: proven. Here is just one illustration of the difficulty behind
>: proving this statement: why wouldn't a higher minimum wage just
>: simply lower the income ratio between workers and executives?
>: From 1953 to 1987, executive compensation climbed from 22 to 61
>: percent of all corporate profits. It could just as easily have
>: gone to workers.
>:
>: Please explain in detail why raising the minimum wage would
>: result in lost jobs, but the loss of 39 percent of corporate
>: profits to executive pay does not.
>
Let's consider this logically. When the minimum wage is raised, the immediate
cost of doing business is also raised for industries which employ large numbers
of individuals at the minimum wage level. To compensate, a company must do one
of three things, either A). Raise it's prices to compensate for the loss;
B) Reduce the number of employees to lower cost; or C) In the case of
large-scale manufacturing, drastically increase production.
Now, if there is no increase in demand, production increases are useless;
Raising prices is often difficult if the market is unwilling to support it; and
firing employees may leave the business short-handed and undermine production
below sustainable levels. The result is usually a combination of a price
increase and lay-offs.
Some businesses and industries, however, cannot withstand the financial loss,
and thus go out of business resulting in job loss. At the same time, the cost
of living skyrockets as all of the base-level industries have raised their
prices for thier products.
Consider the effect on inflation. One company makes some product. They raise
its price to compensate for the new cost of employees. This product, once
created, must also be shipped. The shipping company has also raised its prices
for shipping, which adds to the cost of the product. The product must also be
sold or distributed. Distribution companies and retail centers (which employ
large numbers of minimum wage-level people) have also raised the cost on the
product. By the time it reaches the store, the consumer will pay for the new
cost of doing business several times over. Because this happens over such a
very large industrial base, you have a marked jump in inflation and cost of
living.
The individual who is supposed to benefit from the wage increase, then, is
actually made to suffer; while they get X number more dollars per hour, their
cost of living has been increased by a substantial multiple of X. Inflation
also has the nasty tendency to quickly slow down an economy. Slow economies do
not create jobs, they destroy them.
It's all rather logical.
--
FRP
Libertarius
writes:
>
>In article <4e0ffa$5...@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
att...@ix.netcom.com(Libertarius ) says:
>the world's best husband and daughter are jerome and zoe'
Wishful thinking! The world's best husband & daughter are: me and
my daughters Bernadetta & Ilona
Libertarius
>
>It means the people at the bottom get a tiny little bit more and the
>people WAY on top get a tiny little bit less. So if you make a billion
>dollars, maybe you'd only get $999,999,900. You could see why they get
so
>worked over this whole minimum wage thing. Remember the good ole
days--
>back before FDR?
>(See also, in the Republican Usenet group, "What caused the Great
>Depression?)
==================
Correction: It means the people at the bottom get UNEMPLYED, in
other words, get NOTHING but a fraction of the money taken away from
those who are employed, meanwhile feeding a bunch of politicians &
bureaucrats whose only livelihood is what they skim off from taxes.
Libertarius
writes:
>
>In article <4e0ffa$5...@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
att...@ix.netcom.com(Libertarius ) says:
>the world's best husband and daughter are jerome and zoe'
Libertarius says: Who the heck are Jerome & Zoe?
four
four
FizzTwo
Libertarius
writes:
>In article <4e0ffa$5...@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
att...@ix.netcom.com(Libertarius ) says:
>the world's best husband and daughter are jerome and zoe'
No, I didn't say that! I said the world best husband and daughter
are me & my girls Bernadetta & Ilona!
Libertarius
========================
In her book: HEALING OUR WORLD: THE OTHER PIECE OF THE PUZZLE, Dr.
Mary J. Ruwart depicts a chart, Figure 3.1 (p. 34), titled "Temporal
Relationship Between Increases in Minimum Wage and Decreases in Black
Youth Employment" It shows the following (simplified approximation
based on graph)
% of Jobs Employment Ratio
subject to Balck-White Males
Minimum Wage 16-17 yrs
------------ ----------------
1955 53 1:1
1965 65 3:4
1975 80 1:2
In other words, minimum wage regulation created unemployment,
especially among black youth. The correlation shows that unemployment
gap between black youth and white youth increased as the percentage of
jobs subject to minimum wage regulation increased between 1955-1975.
synergy
Everyone should get exactly what they and their employers agree
is a fair wage, no more, no less. The minimum wage causes unemployment
and inflation. Only ignorant fools advocate a minimum wage.
--
"Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is
the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -- William Pitt
Annoy a Fascist: Just Say No to Gun Control!
Annoy a Leftist: Think!
"Americans of all political persuasions are coming to the sad realization
that [Hillary Clinton]...is a congenital liar." -- William Safire
Mark O. Wilson
>nacek:
>Followup-To: alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.activism.d,alt.politics.radical-left,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.clinton,alt.fan.b
>anacek:
>References: <DLJ13...@news.zippo.com> <4e0e06$a...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4e1etn$p...@Mercury.mcs.com>
>Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
>synergy (syn...@MCS.COM) wrote:
>: Everyone should get exactly what they and their employers agree
>: is a fair wage, no more, no less. The minimum wage causes unemployment
>: and inflation. Only ignorant fools advocate a minimum wage.
>
> translation: I am the font of all knowledge and will tolerate no dissent.
>Wonder if you ever tried to support a family on minimum wage?
If your making minimum wage, you shouldn't start a family.
Why do you demand that others subsidize your irresponsibility?
----
Mark.O...@AtlantaGa.attgis.com
It ain't charity if you ain't using your own money.
Just because a mob calls itself a government, doesn't make it so.
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for
dinner.
People who claim that money doesn't matter, are usually living on
someone else's money.
Society is a mental construct, formed by those people who are too
insecure too handle the concept of people as individuals.
George Grapman
A Traveler of the Orion Spiral Arm
>Wonder if you ever tried to support a family on minimum wage?
Since when is it a law that everyone MUST be paid enough to support a
family on? People should be paid what they're worth to the company
that employs them. Do you really think a burger-flipper is worth
$9.50 an hour, as I've seen proposed?
JD
---
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in
peace. We seek not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the
hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may
posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams
George Grapman
: Since when is it a law that everyone MUST be paid enough to support a
: family on? People should be paid what they're worth to the company
: that employs them. Do you really think a burger-flipper is worth
: $9.50 an hour, as I've seen proposed?
.....and since when is it a law that the government should pay for an
education? I have to laugh a little whenever I see "free market" postings
from edu. sites.
Michael Zarlenga
: : Everyone should get exactly what they and their employers agree
: : is a fair wage, no more, no less. The minimum wage causes unemployment
: : and inflation. Only ignorant fools advocate a minimum wage.
:
: translation: I am the font of all knowledge and will tolerate no dissent.
Your translation is incorrect.
The proper translation is : the market conditions will establish the
value of the jobs. And, usually, that's exactly what happens.
You should get your translator checked; it's malfunctioning.
: Wonder if you ever tried to support a family on minimum wage?
That's damn near impossible, depending on the size of the family and
the ages of the family members. So what? Do you think that the lowest
paying jobs in this country should pay enough to support an entire
family?
That SEEMS to be your presumption.
If so, how about single people with no real skills? When you increase
the min wage, you've just made jobs which would pay enough for them to
live on, illegal.
--
-- Mike Zarlenga
Clinton/Gore
Gone in 4
Michael Zarlenga
: It means the people at the bottom get a tiny little bit more and the
: people WAY on top get a tiny little bit less. So if you make a billion
No, it means the people LEFT on the bottom get a little bit more. At the
same time, some of the people who were at the bottom no longer have jobs.
If minimum wage increases don't cost jobs, why don't we raise the minimum
wage during times of high unemployemnt?
Matt Alexander
D) Lower corporate profits.
-><- Matt Alexander
"Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water!
And East is East and West is West and if you take cranberries and stew
them like applesauce they taste more like prunes than a rhubarb does.
Now, uh.. Now you tell me what you know." -Marx
Shawn Pickrell
of alt.politics.usa.misc
: Correction: It means the people at the bottom get UNEMPLYED, in
: other words, get NOTHING but a fraction of the money taken away from
: those who are employed, meanwhile feeding a bunch of politicians &
: bureaucrats whose only livelihood is what they skim off from taxes.
In the 1890's, unemployment was as high as it ever was, yet poverty was much
higher than it is today. All this was achieved without the restriction of
the minimum wage.
In the early 1960's, the minimum wage was at its highest purchasing power
ever. Yet this seemed not to have an effect on unemployment or the economy.
Some people's jobs have a market value below the minimum wage. So, what's
wrong with paying them sub-minimum wage earnings? I mean, wouldn't more
people be employed?
Hey, if we reduce the minimum wage to $0.00, then we can achieve full
employment! But fewer would make enough to survive on ... and poverty
would increase ... and consumption would go down ... hence production goes
down ... and fewer jobs would exist.
Oh dear, did Henry Ford have it right when he realized that by sharing some
of the record profits with his workers, he would increase the market for
his goods, and hence provide more demand, nececitating more production ...
more jobs for everyone!
************************************************************************
Sir Shawn, Knight of the Internet. <spic...@bacardi.rmc.edu>
Try the Web page at http://bacardi.rmc.edu ... (I have my own page now!)
****E-MAIL ME TO HAVE YOUR WEB PAGE (OR ANY OTHER) LINKED ON MY PAGE!
In real life: Shawn Pickrell, Randolph-Macon College '97
"Life is too serious to be taken so seriously." <Romans 10:9-13>
ELMORE DANIEL JAMES
>| That's damn near impossible, depending on the size of the family and
>| the ages of the family members. So what? Do you think that the lowest
>| paying jobs in this country should pay enough to support an entire
>| family?
> What does it cost to produce and sustain labor? Wages
> should fully cover these costs.
You are dodging the issue. The question isn't if wages should be
high enough to support that laborer, but how many children it should also
cover. So answer the question: should it be legislated that every job in
the country be sufficient to support a spouse and, say, three kids?
Jim in Boulder
ELMORE DANIEL JAMES
>jdwe...@bu.edu (A Traveler of the Orion Spiral Arm) writes:
>|George Grapman (sfge...@netcom.com (George Grapman)) wrote:
>|>Wonder if you ever tried to support a family on minimum wage?
>| Since when is it a law that everyone MUST be paid enough to support a
>|family on? People should be paid what they're worth to the company
>|that employs them. Do you really think a burger-flipper is worth
>|$9.50 an hour, as I've seen proposed?
>9.50/hr burger flippers will be flipping 9.50 burgers.
>Generally speaking, a big mac is an hour at minimum wage.
>In 1948, the minimum wage was raised to $0.75 an hour. This would buy
>you 3 gallons of gas or 15 cokes.
>In 1995, the minimum wage will buy you three gallons of gas, or a case
>of coke.
>See how raising the minimum wage has help people?
>tschus
>pyotr
Are you saying that the minimum wage has been the (or even a)
MAJOR cause of inflation? I have never heard any economists say such a
thing (though that doesn't mean that they don't exist). However,l I have
heard them say that the minimum wage is at a 30 year low when adjusted
for inflation (I think the market basket that they are using to track
inflation is a little bigger and more accurate that your gas and coke
bundle).
Jim in Boulder
A Traveler of the Orion Spiral Arm
Pickrell)) wrote:
>Oh dear, did Henry Ford have it right when he realized that by sharing some
>of the record profits with his workers, he would increase the market for
>his goods, and hence provide more demand, nececitating more production ...
>more jobs for everyone!
The difference is he _chose_ to do that - he wasn't forced to by the
government. Do you think that no one should have the freedom to
choose whether they want to do that or not?
Many NGs trimmed.
Bill Bixby
| sfge...@netcom.com (George Grapman) wrote:
| >synergy (syn...@MCS.COM) wrote:
| >: Everyone should get exactly what they and their employers agree
| >: is a fair wage, no more, no less. The minimum wage causes unemployment
| >: and inflation. Only ignorant fools advocate a minimum wage.
| >
| > translation: I am the font of all knowledge and will tolerate no dissent.
| >Wonder if you ever tried to support a family on minimum wage?
| If your making minimum wage, you shouldn't start a family.
| Why do you demand that others subsidize your irresponsibility?
Why do you have to be insulting?
Pyotr Filipivich
|Wonder if you ever tried to support a family on minimum wage?
I've this small little question ...
Is the minimum wage suppose to be the maximum wage as well, or are
you trying to say that "po' folks" stay at the entry level till they
retire?
Was the intent of the minimum wage to create a "floor" price for labor,
or to guarentee a "living wage" to all citizens, regardless of ability?
If we were ment to raise a family on minimum wage, shouldn't the tax
structure reflect this by say, exempting all wages at or near the
minimum from _all_ taxes?
just asking ...
pyotr
--
py...@halcyon.com Pyotr Filipivich, amongst others.
When I was a boy, we had Outcome Based Education, too.
We called it "Being held back a year"
Bill Bixby
| George Grapman (sfge...@netcom.com (George Grapman)) wrote:
| >Wonder if you ever tried to support a family on minimum wage?
| Since when is it a law that everyone MUST be paid enough to support a
| family on? People should be paid what they're worth to the company
| that employs them. Do you really think a burger-flipper is worth
| $9.50 an hour, as I've seen proposed?
They're paid more than that in Europe, where the
standard of living is higher. ;-)
synergy
>Mark.O...@AtlantaGA.attgis.com (Mark O. Wilson) writes:
>| sfge...@netcom.com (George Grapman) wrote:
>| >synergy (syn...@MCS.COM) wrote:
>| >: Everyone should get exactly what they and their employers agree
>| >: is a fair wage, no more, no less. The minimum wage causes unemployment
>| >: and inflation. Only ignorant fools advocate a minimum wage.
>| >
>| > translation: I am the font of all knowledge and will tolerate no dissent.
>| >Wonder if you ever tried to support a family on minimum wage?
>| If your making minimum wage, you shouldn't start a family.
>| Why do you demand that others subsidize your irresponsibility?
> Why do you have to be insulting?
Why didn't you criticize Mr. Crapman's insults? Hmmm?
Hypocrite!
synergy
>jdwe...@bu.edu (A Traveler of the Orion Spiral Arm) writes:
>| George Grapman (sfge...@netcom.com (George Grapman)) wrote:
>| >Wonder if you ever tried to support a family on minimum wage?
>| Since when is it a law that everyone MUST be paid enough to support a
>| family on? People should be paid what they're worth to the company
>| that employs them. Do you really think a burger-flipper is worth
>| $9.50 an hour, as I've seen proposed?
> They're paid more than that in Europe, where the
> standard of living is higher. ;-)
Only if you use a leftist standard of living. The U.S. has the highest
standard of living of any place in the world, by any rational definition.
Bill Bixby
| George Grapman (sfge...@netcom.com) wrote:
| : : Everyone should get exactly what they and their employers agree
| : : is a fair wage, no more, no less. The minimum wage causes unemployment
| : : and inflation. Only ignorant fools advocate a minimum wage.
| :
| : translation: I am the font of all knowledge and will tolerate no dissent.
| Your translation is incorrect.
| The proper translation is : the market conditions will establish the
| value of the jobs. And, usually, that's exactly what happens.
| You should get your translator checked; it's malfunctioning.
James Hammerton
> sfge...@netcom.com (George Grapman) wrote:
> >nacek:
> >Followup-To: alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.activism.d,alt.politics.radical-left,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.clinton,alt.fan.b
> >anacek:
> >References: <DLJ13...@news.zippo.com> <4e0e06$a...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4e1etn$p...@Mercury.mcs.com>
> >Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
> >synergy (syn...@MCS.COM) wrote:
> >: Everyone should get exactly what they and their employers agree
> >: is a fair wage, no more, no less. The minimum wage causes unemployment
> >: and inflation. Only ignorant fools advocate a minimum wage.
> >
> > translation: I am the font of all knowledge and will tolerate no dissent.
> >Wonder if you ever tried to support a family on minimum wage?
> If your making minimum wage, you shouldn't start a family.
> Why do you demand that others subsidize your irresponsibility?
What about those who started out on a wage that can support a family,
and only after they've started a family do they fall into a situation
where they're on a minimum wage (e.g. during a recession)?
James
--
James Hammerton, PhD Student, School of Computer Science,
University of Birmingham | Email: J.A.Ha...@cs.bham.ac.uk
WWW Home Page: http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~jah
Connectionist NLP WWW Page: http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~jah/CNLP/cnlp.html
A Traveler of the Orion Spiral Arm
> .....and since when is it a law that the government should pay for an
>education?
It isn't. And I am not arguing in favor of government loans for
everyone, which would be the parallel to your minimum wage argument.
>I have to laugh a little whenever I see "free market" postings
>from edu. sites.
You can stop laughing. BU is incredibly expensive. I get no
financial aid from the government. My family pays half the tuition,
and Columbia U. pays the other half, since my mother works there. The
only aid I'm getting from the government is very indirect. Besides-
we're already paying the government damn well enough there's no reason
we shouldn't take advantage of whatever's offered! This does not
conflict, please note, with believing we shouldn't be forced to pay in
the first place.
It would be interesting to see if you can respond to the minimum wage
issue with a reasoned argument instead of ad hominem attacks.
ELMORE DANIEL JAMES
>A Traveler of the Orion Spiral Arm (jdwe...@bu.edu) wrote:
>: Since when is it a law that everyone MUST be paid enough to support a
>: family on? People should be paid what they're worth to the company
>: that employs them. Do you really think a burger-flipper is worth
>: $9.50 an hour, as I've seen proposed?
> .....and since when is it a law that the government should pay for an
>education? I have to laugh a little whenever I see "free market" postings
>from edu. sites.
Maybe since the government realizes that a well educated
population is our only hope for maintaining our high standard of living
and that one person's education helps those around them (just asked the
lesser skilled people who work in jobs that are demanded by the better
people and firms who are the innovators) there is a spillover effect from
education that a private market wouldn't cover.
I am not against welfare to help the poor, but the minimum wage
just isn't a good policy instrument. It pays the same to a person with no
family to support the same as one with two kids.
Finally, lest I you think me some free marketeer living off the
public dole, let me say that I am paying out of state tuition.
Jim in Boulder
ELMORE DANIEL JAMES
>is a fair wage, no more, no less. The minimum wage causes unemployment
>and inflation. Only ignorant fools advocate a minimum wage.
Unemployment perhaps, but how does it cause inflation?
Jim in Boulder
Stan Knight
> If your making minimum wage, you shouldn't start a family.
> Why do you demand that others subsidize your irresponsibility?
Tell us Mark. What, in your opinion, is the min. income that a couple
must have before you're ready to "allow" them to have childern.
Stan Knight
|"What's love got to do with it"---Tina Turner|
torgo
>From: jz...@netcom.com (Bill Bixby)
>Subject: Re: Why the minimum wage is a bad idea for the U.S.
>Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 11:49:51 GMT
>Mark.O...@AtlantaGA.attgis.com (Mark O. Wilson) writes:
>| sfge...@netcom.com (George Grapman) wrote:
>| >synergy (syn...@MCS.COM) wrote:
>| >: Everyone should get exactly what they and their employers agree
>| >: is a fair wage, no more, no less. The minimum wage causes unemployment
>| >: and inflation. Only ignorant fools advocate a minimum wage.
>| >
>| > translation: I am the font of all knowledge and will tolerate no dissent.
>| >Wonder if you ever tried to support a family on minimum wage?
>| If your making minimum wage, you shouldn't start a family.
>| Why do you demand that others subsidize your irresponsibility?
> Why do you have to be insulting?
Why do you have such a problem with the truth?
Srijana Dhakhwa
In article <4e0e06$6...@ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
Funny, since the real minimum wage is the lowest it's been in 30
years.
According to your pathetic piece of logic, we should raise the real
minimum wage and then blacks will become more employable.
And since when does the minimum wage law only apply to blacks?
Srijana Dhakhwa
In article <4e0ffa$5...@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
Libertarius <att...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
|In <4e0e06$a...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> fiz...@aol.com (FizzTwo) writes:
|
|>
|>It means the people at the bottom get a tiny little bit more and the
|>people WAY on top get a tiny little bit less. So if you make a billion
|so
|>worked over this whole minimum wage thing. Remember the good ole
|days--
|>back before FDR?
|>(See also, in the Republican Usenet group, "What caused the Great
|>Depression?)
| Correction: It means the people at the bottom get UNEMPLYED, in
|other words, get NOTHING but a fraction of the money taken away from
|those who are employed, meanwhile feeding a bunch of politicians &
|bureaucrats whose only livelihood is what they skim off from taxes.
Well, in an economy with lots of competition, you might have a valid
point. Unfortunately, the highest real minimum wages were during
the 60's, a time of low unemployment. Only a few percent of the
working population are unemployed, and a fraction of those are
unemployed for a significant amount of time. Obviously, a minimum
wage that is too high will do those things you suggest, but a modest
minimum wage will likely have a positive effect on the vast majority
of the poor.
Pyotr Filipivich
|In article <jzeroDL...@netcom.com>, Bill Bixby <jz...@netcom.com> wrote:
|> They're paid more than that in Europe, where the
|> standard of living is higher. ;-)
|Truth by Blatant Assertion.
|Looked at the purchasing power parity rates lately?
|Looked at average possessions (e.g. number of cars, number of
|telephones, number of radios, etc.) per household lately?
Look at the 'market' basket - what does a phone call cost from the
corner tavern: "Honey,I just stopped off for a quick beer and ... yes
dear. Of course I love you."
use to do this when knocking about Europe - pay phone was 2 pence in GB,
fifty centimes in France, fifty centavos in Madrid, ten pfennig in
Kaufring.
What's the "Big Mac" index? How long does a MacFlipper have to flip
MacBurgers before they can afford the Big Mac? And if you exchange
currency at 'par' (the price of a Big Mac is 1 in the local currency) -
wht's the exchange rate.
|For that matter, looked at average possessions of the poor lately?
As Will Rogers said in the thirties - we're the first nation to go to
the poor house by car.
tschus
Pyotr Filipivich
|>| George Grapman (sfge...@netcom.com (George Grapman)) wrote:
|>| family on? People should be paid what they're worth to the company
|>| that employs them. Do you really think a burger-flipper is worth
|>| $9.50 an hour, as I've seen proposed?
|> They're paid more than that in Europe, where the
|> standard of living is higher. ;-)
| Your source for this higher standard of living in Europe is...?
|They ARE paid more, true, but the cost of living is also MUCH higher.
Not to mention the taxes, the level of offical controls on the
populace.
And don't forget that in England, they've a State Church _and_ a
hereditary monarch as titular head.
Pyotr Filipivich
|>9.50/hr burger flippers will be flipping 9.50 burgers.
|>Generally speaking, a big mac is an hour at minimum wage.
|>In 1948, the minimum wage was raised to $0.75 an hour. This would buy
|>you 3 gallons of gas or 15 cokes.
|>In 1995, the minimum wage will buy you three gallons of gas, or a case
|>of coke.
|>See how raising the minimum wage has help people?
|>tschus
|>pyotr
| Are you saying that the minimum wage has been the (or even a)
|MAJOR cause of inflation? I have never heard any economists say such a
Not saying it is, not saying it isn't. More likely, it is a lagging
indicator.
|thing (though that doesn't mean that they don't exist). However,l I have
|heard them say that the minimum wage is at a 30 year low when adjusted
|for inflation (I think the market basket that they are using to track
|inflation is a little bigger and more accurate that your gas and coke
|bundle).
These two were the items I recalled from a an article. I'll agree the
MinWage has dropped in purchasing power since the last rise (my stats
indicate it should be closer to $6.66 to maintain its highest historical
purchasing power).
My point really is more along the lines - the minimum wage remains the
minimum, and costs adjust. I just wish some other costs would stay
'level.'
IF everything went the way I wanted ... if I got what I wanted, I'd have
a pint a dram, a willing lass and an estate the size of clinton's ego.
But I digress. In an ideal world, a week's work at minimum wage would
rent a room for a month; buy a months groceries; pay the bills; have the
occasional evening out 'with the boys' and put something by for emergencies.
But we've a tax structure (and other things) that make this difficult,
if not impossible. Pay the rent and buy groceries, maybe, but nothing
left over after bills for the wage earner. Life isn't fair, but does
the Governmetn have to join in?
Harold Brashears
>jz...@netcom.com (Bill Bixby) writes:
>>jdwe...@bu.edu (A Traveler of the Orion Spiral Arm) writes:
>>| George Grapman (sfge...@netcom.com (George Grapman)) wrote:
>>| >Wonder if you ever tried to support a family on minimum wage?
>>| Since when is it a law that everyone MUST be paid enough to support a
>>| family on? People should be paid what they're worth to the company
>>| that employs them. Do you really think a burger-flipper is worth
>>| $9.50 an hour, as I've seen proposed?
>> They're paid more than that in Europe, where the
>> standard of living is higher. ;-)
> Your source for this higher standard of living in Europe is...?
>They ARE paid more, true, but the cost of living is also MUCH higher.
Particulary when you consider taxes. But even without taxes, A
comparison of purchasing power reveals that Americans are considerably
better off than Europeans, and miles ahead of Japanese. This is
partly due to the higher productivity of Americans.
Regards, Harold
-------
"True, the Democrats' biggest failure is that we became the party of
government of the government, by the government and for the government."
-----Dem Rep Pat Schroeder (CO), NEWSWEEK, 12/18/95
Jasper O'Malley
>Your translation is incorrect.
>The proper translation is : the market conditions will establish the
>value of the jobs. And, usually, that's exactly what happens.
The market is a cold, impersonal beast, something market advocates aren't keen
on pointing out to the rest of the world...
>You should get your translator checked; it's malfunctioning.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
Anyway,
The minimum wage is both an economic construct and an element of what we
leftists like to call "social responsibility." Do you honestly want to see
people working for pennies in sweat shops again? Not that they don't now, it's
just done illegally. The minimum wage exists to ensure that people don't have
to live like animals if they're not born with a silver spoon in their mouths,
or with no opportunity for advancement/education. This ain't the 1940's...you
can't pull your ass out of poverty delivering newspapers and hustling
cigarettes anymore.
Christ, go have a Coke and a smile. Does it really aggravate you that you can't
pay people worse shit money than you're forced to now?
Cheers,
Mick
Donald Lake
who work in minimum wage jobs. I deliver pizza while I'm going
to college. It doesn't take a lot of brains to do, but some
people just can't keep up. I am the best employee they have.
I know for a fact that if there were no minimum wage I would be
getting paid more than the measly $4.25 an hour I get now. But
they can't afford to pay me more because they have to pay the
incompetents the same wage. I deserve more because I am good.
Do they deserve $4.25 because they are not?
Jim Miller Jr.
> You are dodging the issue. The question isn't if wages should be
>high enough to support that laborer, but how many children it should also
>cover. So answer the question: should it be legislated that every job in
>the country be sufficient to support a spouse and, say, three kids?
Since when is there even a question that the minimum wage should cover
anyone other than the person making it?
Asking to raise the minimum wage to the level you stated above sounds
too much to me like crying "Keep 'em in the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant."
|Jim Miller, Jr. <jmil...@lsfcu.org> Systems Administrator|
|Liberty Savings Federal Credit Union Jersey City, New Jersey USA|
|Eagle Scout - '88 Vigil - '94 Meechgalhukquot-"Redheaded One"|
|Advisor, Explorer Post 348 Hudson Liberty Council, BSA|
|http://www.njaccess.com/jim/ ENTP.cabal and 70.cabal|
ELMORE DANIEL JAMES
>ELMORE DANIEL JAMES (elm...@rastro.Colorado.EDU) wrote:
>: Finally, lest I you think me some free marketeer living off the
>: public dole, let me say that I am paying out of state tuition.
> Do you truly believe that even your higher rate of tutition come
>anywhere close to covering the cost of your education?
Yes I do. In fact, here at CU, the out of state resident pays a
little more so as to subsidize the in state people.
Jim in Boulder
Pyotr Filipivich
|Shawn Pickrell (spickrel@PROBLEM_WITH_INEWS_DOMAIN_FILE (Shawn
|Pickrell)) wrote:
|>Oh dear, did Henry Ford have it right when he realized that by sharing some
|>of the record profits with his workers, he would increase the market for
|>his goods, and hence provide more demand, nececitating more production ...
|>more jobs for everyone!
| The difference is he _chose_ to do that - he wasn't forced to by the
|government. Do you think that no one should have the freedom to
|choose whether they want to do that or not?
Not to mention that by doubleing the wages paid to the assembly line
drones, he cut the employee turnover. Even then, people recognized a
brain numbing job when they saw it.
The spin that it would enable his workers to buy automobiles was
possibly even true. But this is the same guy who chose to produce black
cars because it was less expensive.
ELMORE DANIEL JAMES
>ELMORE DANIEL JAMES<elm...@rastro.Colorado.EDU> wrote:
>> You are dodging the issue. The question isn't if wages should be
>>high enough to support that laborer, but how many children it should also
>>cover. So answer the question: should it be legislated that every job in
>>the country be sufficient to support a spouse and, say, three kids?
>Since when is there even a question that the minimum wage should cover
>anyone other than the person making it?
>Asking to raise the minimum wage to the level you stated above sounds
>too much to me like crying "Keep 'em in the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant."
Go back and reread the various posts in this thread and count how
many times someone has said "try raising a family on minimum wage". That
is an arguement that I hear more often than any other when the issue of
the minimum wage comes up.
As for your second point, I don't see the relationship between
wanting the jobs out there to pay enough so that one parent can stay at
home with the kids if they WANT and mandating that this happen. It's
really just thinking that more options are better than fewer.
Jim in Boulder
Philippe Hajjar
to...@torgo.seanet.com (torgo) wrote:
>In article <jzeroDL...@netcom.com> jz...@netcom.com (Bill Bixby) writes:
>>From: jz...@netcom.com (Bill Bixby)
>>Subject: Re: Why the minimum wage is a bad idea for the U.S.
>>Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 11:49:51 GMT
>
>>Mark.O...@AtlantaGA.attgis.com (Mark O. Wilson) writes:
>
>>| sfge...@netcom.com (George Grapman) wrote:
>
>>| >synergy (syn...@MCS.COM) wrote:
>
>>| >: Everyone should get exactly what they and their employers agree
>>| >: is a fair wage, no more, no less. The minimum wage causes unemployment
>>| >: and inflation. Only ignorant fools advocate a minimum wage.
>
>>| >
>>| > translation: I am the font of all knowledge and will tolerate no
dissent.
>
>>| >Wonder if you ever tried to support a family on minimum wage?
>
>>| If your making minimum wage, you shouldn't start a family.
>>| Why do you demand that others subsidize your irresponsibility?
>
>
>> Why do you have to be insulting?
>
>Why do you have such a problem with the truth?
Liberals will never understand, you shouldn't even bother explaining.
Philippe Hajjar
PNH...@PSU.EDU
"Vote Democrat. It's easier than working."
Flames and chain letters can be directed to RTFM@FUBAR or SMUT@PSUVM
Harold Brashears
>Mark O. Wilson (Mark.O...@AtlantaGA.attgis.com) wrote:
[edited]
>> If your making minimum wage, you shouldn't start a family.
>> Why do you demand that others subsidize your irresponsibility?
>What about those who started out on a wage that can support a family,
>and only after they've started a family do they fall into a situation
>where they're on a minimum wage (e.g. during a recession)?
Do you think that the government mandated minimum wage will keep your
job in a recession? If you don't earn the money, you don't keep your
job. Historically, the effect of a minimum wage is to insure that the
least skilled cannot get any knid of work. The law was originally
passed to keep young black men from getting employment, and still
functions primarily in that capacity. I am surprised you can support
it.
Regards, Harold
----
"[King George III] has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent
hither swarms of officers to harass our people, and eat out their
substance."
- The Declaration of Independence
mikek
>
<SNIP>
>
> Point he was making was that firms could take money out of profits and
> put it towards adjusting for the minimum wage, instead of giving it to
> fact cat whites at the top.
>
<SNIP>
Go look at the statistics. Around 1% of families work for minimum wage. Also, the last time the
minimum wage was raised (1990 under Bush I think) it INCREASED unemployment in minority teenagers by I
remember as 10%. What kind of idea is this. These kids are trying to get experience in order to get
BETTER paying jobs but, you would take their jobs away.
Also, remember that most jobs in this country are by small business owners and they are operating on
razor thin margins. So in order to afford the increase in minimum wage we have to raise prices or
layoff workers. Not a good choice. It would be better to abolish the minimum wage and put people to
work learning how to work.
I used to remember when a kid could get a summer job working construction as a gopher in order to get
exposed to construction work. He would soon learn some basic skills and begin the process of becoming a
carpenter.
--------------------------------------------------------------
"The Constitution was written to limit, not empower Government".
"My opinions are my own".
"Go Rockets".
Regards.............MRK
--------------------------------------------------------------
E. Elizabeth Bartley
> They're paid more than that in Europe, where the
> standard of living is higher. ;-)
Truth by Blatant Assertion.
Looked at the purchasing power parity rates lately?
Looked at average possessions (e.g. number of cars, number of
telephones, number of radios, etc.) per household lately?
For that matter, looked at average possessions of the poor lately?
As far as material wealth goes, the U.S. population lives far better
than the European population.
--
- E. Elizabeth Bartley "I believe that Western civilization, after some
disgusting glitches, has become almost civilized. I believe it is our first
duty to protect that civilization. I believe it is our second duty to improve
it. I believe it is our third duty to extend it if we can." - P. J. O'Rourke
Joseph Mills
>As far as material wealth goes, the U.S. population lives far better
>than the European population.
You are leaving out vital information. Crime is dramatically lower
in Europe. Education is much better in Europe. Few people live in
cardboard boxes or sub-standard housing in Europe (excluding eastern
europe).
Joseph Schulman Mills E-mail: sha...@netcom.com
Beachwood, OH
George Grapman
Michael Kelly
>fiz...@aol.com (FizzTwo) writes:
>
>>It means the people at the bottom get a tiny little bit more and the
>>people WAY on top get a tiny little bit less. So if you make a billion
>>dollars, maybe you'd only get $999,999,900. You could see why they get so
>>worked over this whole minimum wage thing. Remember the good ole days--
>>back before FDR?
>>(See also, in the Republican Usenet group, "What caused the Great
>>Depression?)
>
>Everyone should get exactly what they and their employers agree
>is a fair wage, no more, no less. The minimum wage causes unemployment
>and inflation. Only ignorant fools advocate a minimum wage.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Only those without good arguments resort to this ploy. Tsk tsk,
nothing but propaganda.
It's obvious that the reason minimum wage is a bad idea is that
the rapacious don't even want to pay that non-livable wage.
No, they want slaves literally chained to their jobs. I.G. Farben
demonstrated just what a company will do if they can get away
with it. They had a concentration camp right on their construction
site during WWII. They brought the slave laborers from Auschwitz
and worked them to death. Once a laborer could not perform the
assigned tasks "efficiently," it was up the street to the gas chamber!
That's one hell of a "retirement plan" !!
Check out The Crimes and Punishment of I.G. Farben and read
it for youself.
>
>--
>
>"Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is
>the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -- William Pitt
>
>Annoy a Fascist: Just Say No to Gun Control!
>Annoy a Leftist: Think!
>
>"Americans of all political persuasions are coming to the sad realization
>that [Hillary Clinton]...is a congenital liar." -- William Safire
>
ciao
--
Mike
"To commit the perfect crime you don't have to be intelligent,
just in charge of the investigation that follows."
Bob & Susan Locke
If you feel that you deserve more, then tell the owner/manager. If you
can back this up with a stellar peformance record they should have no
problem giving you a raise while not giving one to the others. If you
get a raise for good performance it might spur the others on to greater
heights as well. It would be in the managements best interest. You
might even point that out to them.
Bill Bixby
| In article <jzeroDL...@netcom.com> jz...@netcom.com (Bill Bixby) writes:
| >From: jz...@netcom.com (Bill Bixby)
| >Subject: Re: Why the minimum wage is a bad idea for the U.S.
| >Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 11:49:51 GMT
| >Mark.O...@AtlantaGA.attgis.com (Mark O. Wilson) writes:
| >| sfge...@netcom.com (George Grapman) wrote:
| >| >synergy (syn...@MCS.COM) wrote:
| >| >: Everyone should get exactly what they and their employers agree
| >| >: is a fair wage, no more, no less. The minimum wage causes unemployment
| >| >: and inflation. Only ignorant fools advocate a minimum wage.
| >| >
| >| > translation: I am the font of all knowledge and will tolerate no dissent.
| >| >Wonder if you ever tried to support a family on minimum wage?
| >| If your making minimum wage, you shouldn't start a family.
| >| Why do you demand that others subsidize your irresponsibility?
| > Why do you have to be insulting?
| Why do you have such a problem with the truth?
Why do you have to be such an extremist?
Emmanuel Steiner
>I am not against welfare to help the poor, but minimum wage >just isn't a good policy instrument. It pays the same to a >person wi=
th no family to support rhe same as one with two >kids.
Why the hell do you live in this country?
Since when must individuals and businesses fund families of the
poor. By what right does the government overtax the rich when
they do not receive their money's worth. Why should one
individual have to support another?
You are dangerous. I pray that you will change. You are a very
great danger, and even more dangerous because you don't realize
how dangerous you are.
The government has no business setting wages. If an employee
and employer come to agreement on a price or wage, then that is
all that is necessary.
What about his family, if he has ten kids? Who cares? He does
and I don't and I don't have to. I worked for my money. It is
my property, just because I have more of it does not give the
government the right to redistribute it.
I will not even waste my time explaining how practically, such
socialist approaches to government are failures, because they
do not stand on moral grounds.
Taxpayers should pay money for the services they receive. The
rich don't receive more military protection, they seldom even
use our welfare, S.S. (synoymous with Hitler's troops), or
other social programs. So why should they pay for them?
Because others need them. Fine, but don't force those who do
not wish to give away their effort or work for free.
Emmanuel A. Steiner
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
No compromise, no sacrifice, nothing but complete and
unconditional surrender.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Emmanuel Steiner
Bill Bixby
| elm...@rastro.Colorado.EDU says:
| >I am not against welfare to help the poor, but minimum wage >just isn't a good policy instrument. It pays the same to a >person wi=
| th no family to support rhe same as one with two >kids.
| Why the hell do you live in this country?
| Since when must individuals and businesses fund families of the
| poor. By what right does the government overtax the rich when
| they do not receive their money's worth. Why should one
| individual have to support another?
| You are dangerous. I pray that you will change. You are a very
| great danger, and even more dangerous because you don't realize
| how dangerous you are.
Get off your high horse, Mr. "edu" account.
Bill Bixby
| The minimum wage is a bad idea for everyone, especially those
| who work in minimum wage jobs. I deliver pizza while I'm going
| to college. It doesn't take a lot of brains to do, but some
| people just can't keep up. I am the best employee they have.
| I know for a fact that if there were no minimum wage I would be
| getting paid more than the measly $4.25 an hour I get now. But
| they can't afford to pay me more because they have to pay the
| incompetents the same wage. I deserve more because I am good.
| Do they deserve $4.25 because they are not?
If it weren't for the minimum wage, you'd probably
be making less.
Bill Bixby
| Donald Lake <duck...@earthlink.net> writes:
| If you feel that you deserve more, then tell the owner/manager. If you
| can back this up with a stellar peformance record they should have no
| problem giving you a raise while not giving one to the others. If you
| get a raise for good performance it might spur the others on to greater
| heights as well. It would be in the managements best interest. You
| might even point that out to them.
Superb advice! Mr. Lake, you have to give capitalism
a chance and let the marketplace work. If you're really
worth more than $4.25 per hour, you'll get paid more than
$4.25.
Michael Zarlenga
: They're paid more than that in Europe, where the
: standard of living is higher. ;-)
Holding Europe up as an example?
Skyrocketing debt, 50%+ tax rates, low productivity per employee, high
and chronic unemployment ... what exactly is GOOD about the European
economy?
--
-- Mike Zarlenga
Clinton/Gore
Gone in 4
Michael Zarlenga
: | That's damn near impossible, depending on the size of the family and
: | the ages of the family members. So what? Do you think that the lowest
: | paying jobs in this country should pay enough to support an entire
: | family?
: What does it cost to produce and sustain labor? Wages
: should fully cover these costs.
Why?
sla...@umbc.edu
>Donald Lake <duck...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>| The minimum wage is a bad idea for everyone, especially those
>| who work in minimum wage jobs. I deliver pizza while I'm going
>| to college. It doesn't take a lot of brains to do, but some
>| people just can't keep up. I am the best employee they have.
>| I know for a fact that if there were no minimum wage I would be
>| getting paid more than the measly $4.25 an hour I get now. But
>| they can't afford to pay me more because they have to pay the
>| incompetents the same wage. I deserve more because I am good.
>| Do they deserve $4.25 because they are not?
>
That's right son, you pizza boss would LOVE to pay you more,
but the damn govt makes him pay all those worthless workers
the same. Too bad, beacuse he REALLY WANTS to pay you more.
The way you move those pizzas! Pizza delivery CEO material
you are!
I'm sorry for the sarcasm, but YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!
After all the min and close to min wage jobs I've held,
I can say that EVERY EMPLOYER WHO PAYS MIN WAGE GETS MIN
WORK! Except for the few gullible employees who believe
the bosses excuses about the crappy wages.
btw: It's almost funny how easy it is to make the current
min wage in almost every major city, begging and looking for
change and valuable stuff on the ground. I have resorted to
that a few times I admit, and every time, I MAKE AS MUCH
MONEY AS THOSE FOOL WHO WORK FOR MIN WAGE!!!
Scott
sla...@umbc.edu
>Bob & Susan Locke <blo...@norfolk.infi.net> writes:
>
>| Donald Lake <duck...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>| | The minimum wage is a bad idea for everyone, especially those
>| | who work in minimum wage jobs. I deliver pizza while I'm going
>| | to college. It doesn't take a lot of brains to do, but some
>| | people just can't keep up. I am the best employee they have.
>| | I know for a fact that if there were no minimum wage I would be
>| | getting paid more than the measly $4.25 an hour I get now. But
>| | they can't afford to pay me more because they have to pay the
>| | incompetents the same wage. I deserve more because I am good.
>| | Do they deserve $4.25 because they are not?
>
>| can back this up with a stellar peformance record they should have no
>| problem giving you a raise while not giving one to the others. If you
>| get a raise for good performance it might spur the others on to greater
>| heights as well. It would be in the managements best interest. You
>| might even point that out to them.
>
> Superb advice! Mr. Lake, you have to give capitalism
> a chance and let the marketplace work. If you're really
> worth more than $4.25 per hour, you'll get paid more than
> $4.25.
>
>
wage?
Scott
Pyotr Filipivich
}ja...@tardis.ed.ac.uk (James Hammerton) wrote for all to see:
}>Mark O. Wilson (Mark.O...@AtlantaGA.attgis.com) wrote:
}[edited]
}>> Why do you demand that others subsidize your irresponsibility?
}>What about those who started out on a wage that can support a family,
}>and only after they've started a family do they fall into a situation
}>where they're on a minimum wage (e.g. during a recession)?
}Do you think that the government mandated minimum wage will keep your
}job in a recession? If you don't earn the money, you don't keep your
}job. Historically, the effect of a minimum wage is to insure that the
}least skilled cannot get any knid of work. The law was originally
}passed to keep young black men from getting employment, and still
}functions primarily in that capacity. I am surprised you can support
}it.
The sad thing is that Davis-Bacon has its famous provision requiring
contractors to pay 'prevailing wages' to assure the Labor movement and
others that ther wouldn't be an influx of Negro Workers to an area,
brought in by a Federal Contractor. This provision still hurts minority
owned contractors, and it hurts all contractors and potential employees
by requiring the cost of labor be higher than the value produced. Or do
these folks think that journeymen's wages for apprentice work is a good
idea?
tschus
pyotr
Robert Newshutz
|> > From: jz...@netcom.com (Bill Bixby)
|> The total amout of income tax collected this year will be just over $600
|> billion, or 11% of all income. The richest 20% pay about half of that. That
|> sounds like a lot, except that they have over 80% of the income. That means that the average
|> richie pays about 6.7% of their income in taxes, while the other 80% of
|> us pay a little over 27% of our income in taxes...Washington Post,
|> 1/22/96, for the figures. I did the math mtself...
Do you support a flat tax where the rich would pay more than this 6.7%.
I keep hearing how under a flat tax the rich will pay less. Which of these
Democrat claims is correct?
Rob (news...@aol.com)
Gordon Fitch
interests of rhetorical economy:
| ... The minimum wage causes unemployment
| and inflation. ...
This is a frequent charge against the minimum wage.
The last time this discussion came around, I pointed people
to the figures for employment and inflation and invited
anyone to show statistically that the minimum wage caused,
or did not cause, either. Very little was forthcoming.
I've scanned this set of threads and I still don't see any
statistical treatment. As far as I've been able to
determine, there's no statistical sign that the minimum
wage has any effect on employment or unemployment, although
it may raise employment slightly. I would think it would
eventually cause inflation, because the value of money is
ultimately dependent on the price of labor. But I don't
have the statistical proof. Does anyone? Or is this
all just more hot air, like last time around?
--
}"{ Gordon Fitch }"{ g...@panix.com }"{
Al Hambidge, Jr.
>It's obvious that the reason minimum wage is a bad idea is that
>the rapacious don't even want to pay that non-livable wage.
You may be stretching things just a tad. The main reason
is that some labor is not worth the cost. Any job at
$2/hour is better than no job at $4/hour.
>No, they want slaves literally chained to their jobs. I.G. Farben
>demonstrated just what a company will do if they can get away
>with it. They had a concentration camp right on their construction
>site during WWII. They brought the slave laborers from Auschwitz
>and worked them to death. Once a laborer could not perform the
>assigned tasks "efficiently," it was up the street to the gas chamber!
>That's one hell of a "retirement plan" !!
Of course, this was only possible because of government policy.
Think about it.
Al Hambidge, Jr. Standard disclaimers apply.
"The right of self-defense is the first law of nature . . . and when the right
of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever,
prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of
destruction." - St. George Tucker, in his edition of Blackstone's _Commentaries_
milt_shook
> RE: WHY THE MINIMUM WAGE IS A BAD IDEA FOR THE U.S.> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:54:37 GMT
> Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700
> guest)
> Newsgroups:
> alt.politics.usa.congress,
> alt.politics.democrats.d,
> alt.politics.usa.republican,
> alt.politics.libertarian,
> talk.politics.libertarian,
> alt.politics.usa.misc,
> alt.activism.d,
> alt.politics.radical-left,
> talk.politics.misc,
> alt.politics.clinton
> Reply to: newsgroup(s)
> References:
> <sfgeorgeD...@netcom.com>
> <4e3rng$2...@news.bu.edu>
> <sfgeorgeD...@netcom.com>
> <elmore.8...@rastro.Colorado.EDU>
> <4e9m2v$c...@amberjack.netrunner.net>
Philippe Hajjar
> Superb advice! Mr. Lake, you have to give capitalism
> a chance and let the marketplace work. If you're really
> worth more than $4.25 per hour, you'll get paid more than
> $4.25.
That's exactly the point we're trying to get across! You finally understand!
TerryR
>sfge...@netcom.com (George Grapman) wrote:
<snip>
>>synergy (syn...@MCS.COM) wrote:
>>: Everyone should get exactly what they and their employers agree
>>: is a fair wage, no more, no less. The minimum wage causes unemployment
>>: and inflation. Only ignorant fools advocate a minimum wage.
>>
>> translation: I am the font of all knowledge and will tolerate no dissent.
>>Wonder if you ever tried to support a family on minimum wage?
>If your making minimum wage, you shouldn't start a family.
>Why do you demand that others subsidize your irresponsibility?
Maybe we should go right back to slavery. Or go back to $2/day and
unlimited hours of work.
How do you equate minimum wage with irresponsibility? What does one
have to do with the other?
Terry
A Traveler of the Orion Spiral Arm
>The market is a cold, impersonal beast, something market advocates aren't keen
>on pointing out to the rest of the world...
I've heard that before. Do you think that _forcing_ people to act
such and such a way will make it better? Is this a lesser evil?
>The minimum wage is both an economic construct and an element of what we
>leftists like to call "social responsibility."
Somehow, this "social responsibility" thing always seems to involve
forcing people to do something...
>Do you honestly want to see
>people working for pennies in sweat shops again?
No, I don't, particularly. But I don't consider it my duty to save
them, either. Tell you what: if you don't want to see them doing
that, why don't YOU pay them? What's that? You can't? It's easier
to force other people to?
>Not that they don't now, it's
>just done illegally. The minimum wage exists to ensure that people don't have
>to live like animals if they're not born with a silver spoon in their mouths,
>or with no opportunity for advancement/education. This ain't the 1940's...you
>can't pull your ass out of poverty delivering newspapers and hustling
>cigarettes anymore.
This is due at least in part to the Federal government trying to get
into absolutely every facet of life. Interesting anecdote I read in a
book called "Shadows of Hope": in 1904, there was a 14-year-old kid
who set up his own liquor store in DC. It was a success, and he
expanded into more businesses, and died a millionaire. Today, you
need to fill out about six applications more than a month in advance
if you want to so much as serve liquor at a fund-raising dinner in DC,
thanks to our well-intentioned politicians, trying to keep us safe and
improve our lives.
>Christ, go have a Coke and a smile. Does it really aggravate you that you can't
>pay people worse shit money than you're forced to now?
No, what aggravates me is that in a supposedly free country, we don't
have freedom of contract. If I WANT to pay a guy $2 an hour, and he
WANTS to work for that, why do you insist on making it a crime?
Let me ask you: if the minimum wage is such a great idea, why don't we
make it $10 an hour? Why not $20 an hour? Wouldn't that raise the
standard of living immensely?
JD
---
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in
peace. We seek not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the
hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may
posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams
Philippe Hajjar
>Donald Lake <duck...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>| The minimum wage is a bad idea for everyone, especially those
>| who work in minimum wage jobs. I deliver pizza while I'm going
>| to college. It doesn't take a lot of brains to do, but some
>| people just can't keep up. I am the best employee they have.
>| I know for a fact that if there were no minimum wage I would be
>| getting paid more than the measly $4.25 an hour I get now. But
>| they can't afford to pay me more because they have to pay the
>| incompetents the same wage. I deserve more because I am good.
>| Do they deserve $4.25 because they are not?
>
>
> If it weren't for the minimum wage, you'd probably
> be making less.
>
"Typical liberal arrogance." Who are you to say that you know how much Mr.
Lake's labor is worth? You don't know how he does his work, what he does, or
anything like that. MAybe his labor really is worth $10/hour but he is
getting short changed because of his worthless idiot coworkers?
"Walk a hundred miles in a man's shoes before you judge him."
torgo
>From: jz...@netcom.com (Bill Bixby)
>Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 04:01:08 GMT
>Donald Lake <duck...@earthlink.net> writes:
>| The minimum wage is a bad idea for everyone, especially those
>| who work in minimum wage jobs. I deliver pizza while I'm going
>| to college. It doesn't take a lot of brains to do, but some
>| people just can't keep up. I am the best employee they have.
>| I know for a fact that if there were no minimum wage I would be
>| getting paid more than the measly $4.25 an hour I get now. But
>| they can't afford to pay me more because they have to pay the
>| incompetents the same wage. I deserve more because I am good.
>| Do they deserve $4.25 because they are not?
> If it weren't for the minimum wage, you'd probably
> be making less.
Years ago when I worked delivering pizzas, they were paying MORE than the
minimum wage for the simple fact that it was difficult to attract good
drivers. Let the market do its thing and we'll all be better off.
AdamSmith4
From: st...@mango.net.com (Stan Knight)
Mark.O...@AtlantaGA.attgis.com (Mark O. Wilson) writes:
> If your making minimum wage, you shouldn't start a family.
> Why do you demand that others subsidize your irresponsibility?
>Tell us Mark. What, in your opinion, is the min. income that a couple
>just have before you're ready to "allow" them to have childern.
Answer: What Mark is advocating, I believe, is that a person is
responsible for supporting his own family, rather than others being forced
to support it. Telling people how many childern (sic) each family is to
have is entirely missing the point. This is a totalitarian idea, which is
opposite from individual responsibility.
Statists favor the transfer of wealth from the productive to the
politically powerful, in the name of the poor.
AdamSmith4
Bill Bixby
| Srijana Dhakhwa wrote:
| >
| <SNIP>
| >
| > Point he was making was that firms could take money out of profits and
| > put it towards adjusting for the minimum wage, instead of giving it to
| > fact cat whites at the top.
| >
| <SNIP>
| Go look at the statistics. Around 1% of families work for minimum
| wage. Also, the last time the minimum wage was raised (1990 under
| Bush I think) it INCREASED unemployment in minority teenagers by I
| remember as 10%. What kind of idea is this. These kids are trying
| to get experience in order to get BETTER paying jobs but, you would
| take their jobs away.
A better number would be the percentage of min.
wage workers who support families.
| Also, remember that most jobs in this country are by small business
| owners and they are operating on razor thin margins. So in order to
| afford the increase in minimum wage we have to raise prices or layoff
| workers. Not a good choice. It would be better to abolish the
| minimum wage and put people to work learning how to work.
Most small business owners earn handsome incomes.
This group is also notorious for under reporting
their incomes to the IRS. They can afford to pay
higher wages.
| I used to remember when a kid could get a summer job working
| construction as a gopher in order to get exposed to construction
| work. He would soon learn some basic skills and begin the process of
| becoming a carpenter.
When was this? The min. wage was created in 1938.
Bill Bixby
| In article <310867bd.3381567@news>, mi...@emi.net (Michael Kelly) writes:
| >It's obvious that the reason minimum wage is a bad idea is that
| >the rapacious don't even want to pay that non-livable wage.
| You may be stretching things just a tad. The main reason
| is that some labor is not worth the cost. Any job at
| $2/hour is better than no job at $4/hour.
You may as well say some lives aren't worth supporting.
The fact is, min. wage has to pay enough to allow
someone to survive. If it doesn't, that person will
die. And we don't want that, do we?
Bill Bixby
| Bill Bixby (jz...@netcom.com) wrote:
| : | That's damn near impossible, depending on the size of the family and
| : | the ages of the family members. So what? Do you think that the lowest
| : | paying jobs in this country should pay enough to support an entire
| : | family?
| : What does it cost to produce and sustain labor? Wages
| : should fully cover these costs.
| Why?
Why not?
Bill Bixby
| In article <jzeroDL...@netcom.com>, jz...@netcom.com (Bill Bixby) wrote:
| >Donald Lake <duck...@earthlink.net> writes:
| >
| >| The minimum wage is a bad idea for everyone, especially those
| >| who work in minimum wage jobs. I deliver pizza while I'm going
| >| to college. It doesn't take a lot of brains to do, but some
| >| people just can't keep up. I am the best employee they have.
| >| I know for a fact that if there were no minimum wage I would be
| >| getting paid more than the measly $4.25 an hour I get now. But
| >| they can't afford to pay me more because they have to pay the
| >| incompetents the same wage. I deserve more because I am good.
| >| Do they deserve $4.25 because they are not?
| >
| >
| > If it weren't for the minimum wage, you'd probably
| > be making less.
| >
| "Typical liberal arrogance." Who are you to say that you know how
| much Mr. Lake's labor is worth?
Truly Mr. Lake's labor is worth more than min. wage,
but NOT ACCORDING TO THE MARKETPLACE. And isn't the
marketplace GOD in the eyes of free market zeolots
such as yourself?
ryd...@igc.net
>mikek <mi...@bangate.compaq.com> writes:
>
>| Srijana Dhakhwa wrote:
>| >
>
>| Go look at the statistics. Around 1% of families work for minimum
>| wage. Also, the last time the minimum wage was raised (1990 under
>| Bush I think) it INCREASED unemployment in minority teenagers by I
>| remember as 10%. What kind of idea is this. These kids are trying
>| to get experience in order to get BETTER paying jobs but, you would
>| take their jobs away.
>
> A better number would be the percentage of min.
> wage workers who support families.
>
Sounds like a Clinton statistic. Assume this was true: "100% of minimimum wage workers are
supporting families." (By the liberal definition of family, this would be true, by the way.)
Sounds impressive, doesn't it? But it's not very meaningful if there are only 6 minimum wage
workers in the country.
> Most small business owners earn handsome incomes.
> This group is also notorious for under reporting
> their incomes to the IRS. They can afford to pay
> higher wages.
>
Wow! That's a pretty strong statement. I might even be impressed if you backed it up with
some figures. The fact is, of course, that SOME small businesses could afford to pay a higher
minimum wage, and some couldn't. Of those that couldn't, those workers would be out of a job.
I don't suppose you care about that, as long as you get to punish some successful
entrepreneurs.
>| I used to remember when a kid could get a summer job working
>| construction as a gopher in order to get exposed to construction
>| work. He would soon learn some basic skills and begin the process of
>| becoming a carpenter.
>
> When was this? The min. wage was created in 1938.
I believe the problem here is the Federal rule (no, I don't know the exact name...Davis-Bacon,
maybe?) that requires many if not most construction firms to pay not the MINIMUM wage, but
prevailing UNION wages, two very different things.
T. Carr
You are assuming that a person is trying to live on 1 minimum wage job.
Most minimum wage jobs are for temporary help (ie students) to help
offset expenses.
Yes some people have to try to get by on minimum wage, but last I
looked there was no restriction on trying to advance yourself, or working
more than 1 job
T. Carr
torgo
>From: jz...@netcom.com (Bill Bixby)
>Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 04:03:54 GMT
>to...@torgo.seanet.com (torgo) writes:
>| In article <jzeroDL...@netcom.com> jz...@netcom.com (Bill Bixby) writes:
>| >From: jz...@netcom.com (Bill Bixby)
>| >Subject: Re: Why the minimum wage is a bad idea for the U.S.
>| >Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 11:49:51 GMT
>| >Mark.O...@AtlantaGA.attgis.com (Mark O. Wilson) writes:
>| >| sfge...@netcom.com (George Grapman) wrote:
>| >| >synergy (syn...@MCS.COM) wrote:
>| >| >: Everyone should get exactly what they and their employers agree
>| >| >: is a fair wage, no more, no less. The minimum wage causes unemployment
>| >| >: and inflation. Only ignorant fools advocate a minimum wage.
>| >| >
>| >| > translation: I am the font of all knowledge and will tolerate no dissent.
>| >| >Wonder if you ever tried to support a family on minimum wage?
>| >| If your making minimum wage, you shouldn't start a family.
>| >| Why do you demand that others subsidize your irresponsibility?
>| > Why do you have to be insulting?
>| Why do you have such a problem with the truth?
> Why do you have to be such an extremist?
There is nothing extreme about holding to the truth.
Jerome Bigge
any effect upon the economy caused by the minimum wage itself.
What it most likely does is to push certain sorts of labor into
the "underground (cash) economy". Most people who "babysit" for
example do so at rates below the minimum wage, and no deductions
are taken for Social Security, Federal, State, and Local income
taxes. In practice the rate of true unemployment in this country
is much less than what is claimed thanks to employment in the
underground economy which doubtlessly keeping millions going.
--
Jerome Bigge (jbi...@novagate.com)
WILLIAM HOLMES (607)255-6299
}to...@torgo.seanet.com (torgo) writes:
}
}| In article <jzeroDL...@netcom.com} jz...@netcom.com (Bill Bixby) writes:
}| }From: jz...@netcom.com (Bill Bixby)
}| }Subject: Re: Why the minimum wage is a bad idea for the U.S.
}| }Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 11:49:51 GMT
}
}| }Mark.O...@AtlantaGA.attgis.com (Mark O. Wilson) writes:
}
}| }| sfge...@netcom.com (George Grapman) wrote:
}
}| }| }synergy (syn...@MCS.COM) wrote:
}
}| }| }: Everyone should get exactly what they and their employers agree
}| }| }: is a fair wage, no more, no less. The minimum wage causes unemployment
}| }| }: and inflation. Only ignorant fools advocate a minimum wage.
}
}| }| }
}| }| } translation: I am the font of all knowledge and will tolerate no dissent.
}
}| }| }Wonder if you ever tried to support a family on minimum wage?
}
}| }| If your making minimum wage, you shouldn't start a family.
}| }| Why do you demand that others subsidize your irresponsibility?
}
}
}| } Why do you have to be insulting?
}
}| Why do you have such a problem with the truth?
}
}
} Why do you have to be such an extremist?
How is he being an extremist ? He is correct if you can't afford a family
then don't start one. Demanding that others pay so you can have the life
you desire is wrong.
WILLIAM HOLMES (607)255-6299
>zarl...@conan.ids.net (Michael Zarlenga) writes:
>
>>Your translation is incorrect.
>
>>The proper translation is : the market conditions will establish the
>>value of the jobs. And, usually, that's exactly what happens.
>
>The market is a cold, impersonal beast, something market advocates aren't keen
>on pointing out to the rest of the world...
>
Yes the market is cold and impersonal. So what's your point.
Just because the reality of life does not fit "your vision" of
how things should be does not give you licesne to to tax
others.
>
>>You should get your translator checked; it's malfunctioning.
>
>AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
>
>Anyway,
>
>The minimum wage is both an economic construct and an element of what we
>leftists like to call "social responsibility."
Minimum wage is somthing that lets you sleep a little better at
night that's it nothing more. People should be paid for the work
they do not for how long they do it. That's somthing you liberals
just can't understand.
Do you honestly want to see
>people working for pennies in sweat shops again?
No one has to. They choose to. Now who's fault is that ? Mine because
I make more than pennies an hour ?
Not that they don't now, it's
>just done illegally. The minimum wage exists to ensure that people don't have
>to live like animals if they're not born with a silver spoon in their mouths,
>or with no opportunity for advancement/education.
You were not talking about oportunity you were talking about minimum
wage. If you want to talk about fixing our fucked up education system
or more accurately the fucked up funding system for education fine.
But you were talking about a minimum wage. That's no different than
building prisions to combat crime. It will not solve the underlying
problems. No matter how much you make minimum wage it will not
solve anything.
This ain't the 1940's...you
>can't pull your ass out of poverty delivering newspapers and hustling
>cigarettes anymore.
>
>Christ, go have a Coke and a smile. Does it really aggravate you that you can't
>pay people worse shit money than you're forced to now?
>
>Cheers,
>Mick
Mark Jones
>
>
>From: st...@mango.net.com (Stan Knight)
>
>Mark.O...@AtlantaGA.attgis.com (Mark O. Wilson) writes:
>
>> If your making minimum wage, you shouldn't start a family.
>> Why do you demand that others subsidize your irresponsibility?
>
>>just have before you're ready to "allow" them to have childern.
>
>Answer: What Mark is advocating, I believe, is that a person is
>responsible for supporting his own family, rather than others being
forced
>to support it. Telling people how many childern (sic) each family is to
>have is entirely missing the point. This is a totalitarian idea, which
is
>opposite from individual responsibility.
>
>
>
>
>Statists favor the transfer of wealth from the productive to the
>politically powerful, in the name of the poor.
I'd have to say the Republicans are more honest. They favor transferring
the wealth from the productive to the super-rich in return for
contributions via PACs or media support - to hell with the poor.
One thing some of us older folks understand a lot better than the oncoming
genaration is that the very wealthy DO combine with each other for mutual
benefit - the existence of PACs and lobbyists is all the proof you need -
then they engage in the ultimate hypocrisy of how they need the "free
market". In the name of any level of charity, how can they complain if
someone's making a lousy 4.25 an hour at McDonalds?
A healthy society is "conservative" at the bottom and "free-market" at the
top. The minimum wage is one of the few controls left that isn't
completely flipping the US the other way.
Shawn Pickrell
etched on the cyber-tablets of alt.politics.usa.misc:
: Since when is it a law that everyone MUST be paid enough to support a
: family on? People should be paid what they're worth to the company
: that employs them. Do you really think a burger-flipper is worth
: $9.50 an hour, as I've seen proposed?
But the problem is this: How do we deal with the workers whose market
value is not enough to support their families. You say, "get an education,"
perhaps, but these workers are busy supporting their families ... it is
extremely difficult to do this. And getting an education or otherwise
getting skills will not necessarily translate into increased income.
***********************************************************************
Sir Shawn, Knight of the Internet. <spic...@bacardi.rmc.edu>
In real life: Shawn Pickrell, Randolph-Macon College '97 <Rom. 10:9-13>
<http://bacardi.rmc.edu/~spickrel> <email me to link your page to mine>
"Life is too serious to be taken so seriously."
Shawn Pickrell
: >Wonder if you ever tried to support a family on minimum wage?
: If your making minimum wage, you shouldn't start a family.
: Why do you demand that others subsidize your irresponsibility?
What about the family whose father gets released from his $40,000/yr
job and has to find a minimum wage job? Would you call him irresponsible?
Not all families on minimum wage _started_ on minimum wage.
Shawn Pickrell
: It isn't. And I am not arguing in favor of government loans for
: everyone, which would be the parallel to your minimum wage argument.
Ah, but not everyone can afford a college education ... and in today's
"information world," education is the way to information and hence power.
: You can stop laughing. BU is incredibly expensive. I get no
: financial aid from the government. My family pays half the tuition,
: and Columbia U. pays the other half, since my mother works there. The
: only aid I'm getting from the government is very indirect. Besides-
: we're already paying the government damn well enough there's no reason
: we shouldn't take advantage of whatever's offered! This does not
: conflict, please note, with believing we shouldn't be forced to pay in
: the first place.
So _your_ family can afford the $9,000 a year (or more) to go to BU, and
your mom works for Columbia, so they don't have to pay the other $9,000.
But a lot of families cannot afford even the $5,000-$8,000 it costs to
go to a state university, much less the $18,000 and up it costs to go to
a private school like BU.
The Free Market is not the solution to every problem.
George Grapman
: The is no correlation, however, those who are making minimum wage are not well
: off financially, and they, least of all, can afford to be irresponsible, and
: when they are irresponsible, we pay for it.
What about those with families who were downsized out of decent jobs?
: "Vote Democrat. It's easier than working."
About your tagline......since there are still more registered Democrats
than Republicans in this country does that mean that there are more
people not working than working?
Pyotr Filipivich
}jz...@netcom.com (Bill Bixby) wrote:
}>| I used to remember when a kid could get a summer job working
}>| construction as a gopher in order to get exposed to construction
}>| work. He would soon learn some basic skills and begin the process of
}>| becoming a carpenter.
}>
}> When was this? The min. wage was created in 1938.
}I believe the problem here is the Federal rule (no, I don't know the exact
}name...Davis-Bacon, maybe?) that requires many if not most construction
}firms to pay not the MINIMUM wage, but prevailing UNION wages, two very
}different things.
Hand that man a genuwine "Honduran" Ceegar! He got it right.
Davis-Bacon laid out the requirements for contractors bidding on
Federal Projects in the New Deal. The provision about paying
'prevailing wages' was put in to keep labor contractors from importing
'cehap' labor {meaning Negros} and undercutting local employers.
Now, fifty years later, inorder to make up for the lack of minority
business owners, we have Minority Set-Asides to divert Federal Contracts
to said minority owners, who may just be the owner of record, with a
large company as the real contractor. But hey, rather than fix the
problem, lets put out the chairs in small converstaion clusters.
tschus
pyotr
Or as Will Roger said: if stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it
get us out?
--
py...@halcyon.com Pyotr Filipivich, amongst others.
When I was a boy, we had Outcome Based Education, too.
We called it "Being held back a year"
Pyotr Filipivich
}Bill Bixby (jz...@netcom.com) wrote:
}: They're paid more than that in Europe, where the
}: standard of living is higher. ;-)
}Holding Europe up as an example?
}Skyrocketing debt, 50%+ tax rates, low productivity per employee, high
}and chronic unemployment ... what exactly is GOOD about the European
}economy?
?It can't be blamed on Congress?
?"We" don't hear about it in the papers every day?
?It makes the Brazilians look worse?
We never hear about Argentina anymore, is it still open?
Pyotr Filipivich
A lot of the work study jobs are at minwage, but some have to pay
higher. Ever notice what the going rate for MacDonalds is? Has to be
that to get people to come in. Some places are more expensive to live
in, thus the "Minimum Wage" is higher. (Some places are cheaper to live
in, and have what is sometimes called the Sunshine Tax - people will
take less money to live where the sun shines.)
} T. Carr
George Grapman
: Yes the market is cold and impersonal. So what's your point.
: Just because the reality of life does not fit "your vision" of
: how things should be does not give you licesne to to tax
: others.
You just might have a point here. I am tired of my tax money
providing a subsidy for your schooling. How about going out into the
marketplace and earning the true cost of your tuition?
: Do you honestly want to see
: >people working for pennies in sweat shops again?
: No one has to. They choose to. Now who's fault is that ? Mine because
: I make more than pennies an hour ?
Exercise your free choice and pay your own way.
: This ain't the 1940's...you
Philippe Hajjar
>Maybe we should go right back to slavery. Or go back to $2/day and
>unlimited hours of work.
If you and your employer both agree that this is a fair wage, then do it.
>How do you equate minimum wage with irresponsibility? What does one
>have to do with the other?
The is no correlation, however, those who are making minimum wage are not well
off financially, and they, least of all, can afford to be irresponsible, and
when they are irresponsible, we pay for it.
Philippe Hajjar
PNH...@PSU.EDU
"Vote Democrat. It's easier than working."
Michael Zarlenga
: I used to remember when a kid could get a summer job working construction
: as a gopher in order to get exposed to construction work. He would soon
: learn some basic skills and begin the process of becoming a carpenter.
Well, heck, that could take YEARS and WORK.
Advocates of the poor don't want COMPLICATED solutions, they want simple,
immediate, EFFORTLESS answers, like increasing the minimum wage. That
saves people from planning their own futures and from having to better
themselves through education and experience and move on to a higher-skill,
higher-pay job.
--
-- Mike Zarlenga
Clinton/Gore
Gone in 4
Michael Zarlenga
: The minimum wage is both an economic construct and an element of what we
: leftists like to call "social responsibility." Do you honestly want to see
: people working for pennies in sweat shops again? Not that they don't now, it's
No, I'd rather see them sitting in front of a TV passed out drunk collecting
$800/month from the sweat of others.
Bill Bixby
| jz...@netcom.com (Bill Bixby) wrote:
| >hamb...@sis.bms.com (Al Hambidge, Jr.) writes:
| >
| >| In article <310867bd.3381567@news>, mi...@emi.net (Michael Kelly) writes:
| >
| >
| >| >It's obvious that the reason minimum wage is a bad idea is that
| >| >the rapacious don't even want to pay that non-livable wage.
| >
| >| You may be stretching things just a tad. The main reason
| >| is that some labor is not worth the cost. Any job at
| >| $2/hour is better than no job at $4/hour.
| >
| > You may as well say some lives aren't worth supporting.
| > The fact is, min. wage has to pay enough to allow
| > someone to survive. If it doesn't, that person will
| > die. And we don't want that, do we?
| >
| You are assuming that a person is trying to live on 1 minimum wage job.
| Most minimum wage jobs are for temporary help (ie students) to help
| offset expenses.
| Yes some people have to try to get by on minimum wage, but last I
| looked there was no restriction on trying to advance yourself, or working
| more than 1 job
You have to be young, strong and healthy to work 2
minimum wage jobs since most minimum wag jobs are
physically demanding. Since we are talking about
people on the economic fringes of society, it is
the height of cruelty to make life harder for these
people than it already is.
Bill Bixby
| In reality, as opposed to theory there is probably little if
| any effect upon the economy caused by the minimum wage itself.
| What it most likely does is to push certain sorts of labor into
| the "underground (cash) economy". Most people who "babysit" for
| example do so at rates below the minimum wage, ...
Cites please? Last I heard, babysitters were
charging prices HIGHER than the minimum wage.
Michael Kelly
>A Traveler of the Orion Spiral Arm (jdwe...@bu.edu)
> etched on the cyber-tablets of alt.politics.usa.misc:
>
>: Since when is it a law that everyone MUST be paid enough to support a
>: family on? People should be paid what they're worth to the company
>: that employs them. Do you really think a burger-flipper is worth
>: $9.50 an hour, as I've seen proposed?
>
>But the problem is this: How do we deal with the workers whose market
>value is not enough to support their families. You say, "get an education,"
>perhaps, but these workers are busy supporting their families ... it is
>extremely difficult to do this. And getting an education or otherwise
>getting skills will not necessarily translate into increased income.
Hi Shawn, I sympathize with your point of view. To understand
the attitude you are dealing with it may be instructive to reflect
that these people start wars, killing and maming millions, just to
achieve their ends. They're capable of ordering the fire-
bombing of cities with equanimity, so they really don't give a
damn about some poor parent(s) trying to feed the kids.
They are either totally indifferent to, or actually relish
human suffering. Scrooge was a comic caricature,
and much too nice a guy to do these types justice. :->
>
>***********************************************************************
>Sir Shawn, Knight of the Internet. <spic...@bacardi.rmc.edu>
>In real life: Shawn Pickrell, Randolph-Macon College '97 <Rom. 10:9-13>
><http://bacardi.rmc.edu/~spickrel> <email me to link your page to mine>
>"Life is too serious to be taken so seriously."
ciao
--
Mike
"The institution of any reform is proof positive
that its circumvention is already in place."