Immigration is the plaything of the middle classes
Robert Henderson
Sir,
Mary Riddle (10 Nov) asks "Who else will staff hospitals and care homes,
pick potatoes and sweep streets" if it is not immigrants. The answer is
the same people who did them before, our own people.
Immigrants take many of these jobs at present for various reasons.
Immigrant labour severely depresses wages. Many of the jobs filled by
immigrants are never advertised or are advertised very briefly. They are
filled through agencies specialising in immigrant labour and by word of
mouth amongst the immigrants. Once a workplace becomes predominantly
staffed by immigrants it becomes less attractive to native Britons - how
many Telegraph readers would want to work in a place where English is
not the predominant language?
Stop mass immigration and the closed employment loop which excludes
Britons will close. and wage rates will rise. Native Britons will then
begin to move into the jobs. This can be encouraged further by adapting
the benefit rules to make the transition between unemployment and
employment easier.
Mass immigration may have benefited people such as Mary Riddle who have
enjoyed cheap labour whilst being able to buffer themselves against
immigration's malign effects; for the large majority who can't it has
been a disaster.
Yours sincerely,
Roibert Henderson
--
--
Robert Henderson
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk
Andy
wrote:
Immigrants are of CONSIDERABLY more value to British society than
Robert Henderson. End of story.
Mike
wrote:
Mary Riddle's article was unbelievable lefty tosh. why did the
Telegraph print it? Wind up?
Blue
Streets would need even more cleaning after her brother Jimmy has gone down them.
Mel Rowing
wrote:
> Mary Riddle (10 Nov) asks "Who else will staff hospitals and care homes,
> pick potatoes and sweep streets" if it is not immigrants. The answer is
> the same people who did them before, our own people.
Except that this has not been the case through most of my lifetime.
The very first Commonwealth immigrants were in fact imported into this
country to serve the needs of London Transport.
Immigrants working at all levels in the NHS came some time later again
to fill vacant positions that the British weren't inclined or were
unqualified to touch. British medical professionals at that time were
moving abroad for better pay and working conditions. I myself attended
two "emigration parties" (quire common in the 60s) both for nurses who
were off to double their salaries in the States. These professions
were not alone. The media used to refer to this phenomenon as the
"brain drain" Many newly or recently qualified graduates at that time
sought their fortunes abroad. That's hardly surprising when at the
time, a newly qualified graduate could expect to earn less than a
production line worker. My own brother in law applied for a factory
floor job away from his supervisory position because it paid better.
He was refused as "over qualified".
> Immigrants take many of these jobs at present for various reasons.
> Immigrant labour severely depresses wages. Many of the jobs filled by
> immigrants are never advertised or are advertised very briefly. They are
> filled through agencies specialising in immigrant labour and by word of
> mouth amongst the immigrants.
An immigrant professional has exactly the same earning potential as
any other of the same type. We also have minimum wage legislation and
so it's hard to see how immigration can depress wages.
Talking of minimum wage levels, the very term seems to discourage
takers. I refer to a TV programme 2 or 3 weeks ago a documentary set
around Stoke. Usual story! The traditional industries coal and pottery
had all but disappeared leaving a legacy of redundant workers. It
seemed that a substantial body of less enterprising of these people
seemed to sit around all day waiting for things to improve. In the
meantime social decay abounded.
There was one such guy, a plumber. Now how the decline of these
traditional industries could affect a plumber is anyone's guess.
However, this guy could get a job if he wanted but he was a tradesman
and he wasn't prepared to work for the minimum wage. He was quite
happy to be kept by others. He was not too proud for that but was not
prepared to accept money in exchange for work.
Then I thought wait a bit! I've engaged the odd plumber from time to
time. When I did I paid them considerably more than minimum wage
rates. If this guy is not happy to accept minimum wage rates why
doesn't he get himself a van and a lock up, put an advert in Yellow
pages and/or the local paper and find his own work. As he said, he's a
tradesman so what is holding him back from plying his trade?
The truth is that he probably did do a bit of plumbing on the side
anyway for cash in hand. Add this to his benefits and he wouldn't do
so bad and didn't need to put in the hours or pay tax or NI.
One suspect there is an element of this tied up in the immigrant work
situation. Any native Briton who clams that immigrants are keeping him
out of work should hang his head in shame. He has the advantage of
language, contacts and knowing the ropes. He cannot be undercut and
yet he claims to be uncompetitive. The truth of course is far
different and the cause rests in the benefit system which of course a
new immigrant has no access to.
In suggesting that immigrants find jobs through word of mouth, RH
makes them sound as though they are part of some giant international
free masonry. The truth is of course that they are extremely diverse
with regard to language, religion. colour and culture in contrast to
the British . It's not true that many jobs are not advertised. Why
shouldn't they be? Do not employers any longer want the best man or
woman available for the money? Pick up your local paper. Surf the
internet, visit the job centre. There are hundreds of jobs on offer at
all levels of skill. Why do some stay unemployed year on year through
good times and bad very often as do those that follow them?
to those who want to "ban immigration" I say this. Go ahead and ban
it. In the main those people come here simply to improve themselves.
If there were no opportunities for them than they would not come. So,
go out and take the jobs that immigrants are prepared to do and don't
expect to make a living without working. You do that and e immigrants
won't come in anything like the numbers that they do. They're filling
the holes you are not prepared to fill.
White Spirit
> to those who want to "ban immigration" I say this. Go ahead and ban
> it. In the main those people come here simply to improve themselves.
> If there were no opportunities for them than they would not come. So,
> go out and take the jobs that immigrants are prepared to do and don't
> expect to make a living without working. You do that and e immigrants
> won't come in anything like the numbers that they do. They're filling
> the holes you are not prepared to fill.
Most people are prepared to fill those jobs. Ask Maria, for example.
As usual, your entire pro-immigration argument can be summed up by
'British people are too lazy to work'.
It's not going to wash much longer - people are getting fed up seeing
immigration fuelled by capitalism while British people go unemployed.
DVH
"Mel Rowing" <mel.r...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:132f1efd-c8c0-46d2...@a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
> An immigrant professional has exactly the same earning potential as
> any other of the same type. We also have minimum wage legislation
> and so it's hard to see how immigration can depress wages.
The law of supply and demand suggests that if you increase the size of the
labour pool the price of labour will fall.
A sudden net rise in the working-age population will probably result in
lower wages.
The existence of a minimum wage is tangential to this issue - it merely puts
a floor under wages for unskilled labour.
Mel Rowing
> "Mel Rowing" <mel.row...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
My understanding of the law of supply and demand is that it only
operates under free market conditions which don't prevail here.
Without this "floor" the probability is that most unskilled workers
would fall below it. You can add as many workers to a pool as you like
but you can't lift an artificially imposed floor. If the floor is
raised all those on will be raised with it though a few might be let
go. Those above it would expect and strive to have their differential
maintained.
Hardly supply and demand.
Mel Rowing
> Mel Rowing wrote:
> > to those who want to "ban immigration" I say this. Go ahead and ban
> > it. In the main those people come here simply to improve themselves.
> > If there were no opportunities for them than they would not come. So,
> > go out and take the jobs that immigrants are prepared to do and don't
> > expect to make a living without working. You do that and e immigrants
> > won't come in anything like the numbers that they do. They're filling
> > the holes you are not prepared to fill.
>
> Most people are prepared to fill those jobs. Ask Maria, for example.
> As usual, your entire pro-immigration argument can be summed up by
> 'British people are too lazy to work'.
Not necessarily!
Some are just downright dishonest accepting benefits whilst taking on
casual cash in hand work not paying their dues of tax NI etc. and
undercutting legitimate traders.
Where I used to come from before I came here there was a saying, "If
you want something doing you don't go to Yellow Pages"
A dolie would always paint your house (and get a couple of similar
mates to help him) build you a fence, bit of plastering, "tree
surgeon", clear out some rubbish etc. etc.
White Spirit
> On Nov 10, 11:42 am, White Spirit <wspi...@homechoice.co.uk> wrote:
>> Most people are prepared to fill those jobs. Ask Maria, for example.
>> As usual, your entire pro-immigration argument can be summed up by
>> 'British people are too lazy to work'.
> Not necessarily!
> Some are just downright dishonest accepting benefits whilst taking on
> casual cash in hand work not paying their dues of tax NI etc. and
> undercutting legitimate traders.
And you think that migrant workers don't do that either?
John Bennett
> Roibert Henderson
Is that the french way to spell Bobby?
DVH
On Nov 10, 12:14 pm, "DVH" <d...@vhvhvhvh.com> wrote:
> "Mel Rowing" <mel.row...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>
> news:132f1efd-c8c0-46d2...@a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
>
> > An immigrant professional has exactly the same earning potential as
> > any other of the same type. We also have minimum wage legislation
> > and so it's hard to see how immigration can depress wages.
>
> The law of supply and demand suggests that if you increase the size of the
> labour pool the price of labour will fall.
>
> A sudden net rise in the working-age population will probably result in
> lower wages.
>
> The existence of a minimum wage is tangential to this issue - it merely
> puts
> a floor under wages for unskilled labour.
>
> My understanding of the law of supply and demand is that it only
> operates under free market conditions which don't prevail here.
In my old-fashioned fuddy-duddy way I tend to think it operates under
competitive market conditions.
Competition exists in regulated unfree markets.
The price of cannabis is mostly a function of supply.
> Without this "floor" the probability is that most unskilled workers
> would fall below it. You can add as many workers to a pool as you like
> but you can't lift an artificially imposed floor. If the floor is
> raised all those on will be raised with it though a few might be let
> go. Those above it would expect and strive to have their differential
> maintained.
Are you suggesting the NMW causes a general rise in wages for all?
What evidence do you have for this?
>
> Hardly supply and demand.
Maria
Mel, you have known me a long time, and I hope that you don't consider
me to be a liar. Yesterday I saw my husband with tears in eyes again,
because he cannot get full-time work to support us. When I met him ten
years ago, he was working 12 hour shifts, and even now, he refuses to go
on the dole. I don't understand why you refuse to believe that he and
others like him simply cannot find work any longer. He is 50, and the
agency books are full of 20-something Poles - what do you think? And
don't say he's aiming too high - he has always earned minimum wage and
still does. He is already hanging his head in shame, and not because he
is lying, but because there is simply no work for him, and when there
is, he is ignored. He has worked all his life in menial jobs - he cannot
deal with not working. What shall I tell him?
>He has the advantage of
> language, contacts and knowing the ropes. He cannot be undercut and
> yet he claims to be uncompetitive.
He has several disadvantages -
1) employer prejudice
2) anyone seeking Eastern European workers can employ them direct from
Poland - try this search - Google Polish workers. Employer simply tells
the agency what they want, agency sends worker - worker has job even
before he arrives, job is never advertised.
3) Most are employed by agencies, who can simply select a foreigner and
never be accused of discrimination because there is simply no proof.
>The truth of course is far
> different and the cause rests in the benefit system which of course a
> new immigrant has no access to.
>
> In suggesting that immigrants find jobs through word of mouth, RH
> makes them sound as though they are part of some giant international
> free masonry. The truth is of course that they are extremely diverse
> with regard to language, religion. colour and culture in contrast to
> the British . It's not true that many jobs are not advertised. Why
> shouldn't they be?
Many of them are advertised in Poland and employees are recruited
directly from Poland - see above. This happens because it seems that
British employers do not want British workers.
Perhaps you can explain to me why there is not one factory or warehouse
job advertised here, when the place is full of factories and warehouses,
and every person that you pass in the street along these roads where the
factories and warehouses are located, are Eastern European, when 5 years
ago they would have been British? There is less work now than then, so
what is the reason?
>Do not employers any longer want the best man or
> woman available for the money? Pick up your local paper. Surf the
> internet, visit the job centre. There are hundreds of jobs on offer at
> all levels of skill.
I think that you have just proved that you have never looked in the job
paper or the Jobcentre - or maybe your area is inundated with work.
Either the jobs are already filled, or never existed in the first place,
or if the job is available still, it's because they can't find the right
person due to skills-matching.
You have posted this before several times and I have countered it
several times. The evidence really is there for anybody who can be
bothered to look.
> Why do some stay unemployed year on year through
> good times and bad very often as do those that follow them?
That is actually a very small number of people - most unemployed are
employed within 6 months (before the recession).
> to those who want to "ban immigration" I say this. Go ahead and ban
> it. In the main those people come here simply to improve themselves.
> If there were no opportunities for them than they would not come. So,
> go out and take the jobs that immigrants are prepared to do and don't
> expect to make a living without working. You do that and e immigrants
> won't come in anything like the numbers that they do. They're filling
> the holes you are not prepared to fill.
This is a simple lie, and here is evidence that it's true, unless you
are calling me a liar.
There is no need to 'ban' immigration - just allow people in and out
according to need. What actually is wrong with that?
Britain has suffered as a result of the government allowing unlimited EU
migration long before most other EU countries did. Are you going to
criticise Germany et al for not allowing it?
Maria
> On Nov 10, 11:42 am, White Spirit <wspi...@homechoice.co.uk> wrote:
>> Mel Rowing wrote:
>>> to those who want to "ban immigration" I say this. Go ahead and ban
>>> it. In the main those people come here simply to improve themselves.
>>> If there were no opportunities for them than they would not come. So,
>>> go out and take the jobs that immigrants are prepared to do and don't
>>> expect to make a living without working. You do that and e immigrants
>>> won't come in anything like the numbers that they do. They're filling
>>> the holes you are not prepared to fill.
>> Most people are prepared to fill those jobs. Ask Maria, for example.
>> As usual, your entire pro-immigration argument can be summed up by
>> 'British people are too lazy to work'.
>
> Not necessarily!
>
> Some are just downright dishonest accepting benefits whilst taking on
> casual cash in hand work not paying their dues of tax NI etc. and
> undercutting legitimate traders.
>
> Where I used to come from before I came here there was a saying, "If
> you want something doing you don't go to Yellow Pages"
>
> A dolie would always paint your house (and get a couple of similar
> mates to help him) build you a fence, bit of plastering, "tree
> surgeon", clear out some rubbish etc. etc.
>
That's because dole money is not enough to live on. It doesn't mean that
those people are not interested in finding work, unless they are running
an entire business and claiming as a bit extra.
Maria
Why is it hard to see? Bottom end wages have not increased for 10 years,
in fact they have decreased in real terms, simply because there are so
many more people competing for less jobs. Simple economics isn't it?
Maria
> On Nov 10, 12:14 pm, "DVH" <d...@vhvhvhvh.com> wrote:
>> "Mel Rowing" <mel.row...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:132f1efd-c8c0-46d2...@a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> An immigrant professional has exactly the same earning potential as
>>> any other of the same type. We also have minimum wage legislation
>>> and so it's hard to see how immigration can depress wages.
>> The law of supply and demand suggests that if you increase the size of the
>> labour pool the price of labour will fall.
>>
>> A sudden net rise in the working-age population will probably result in
>> lower wages.
>>
>> The existence of a minimum wage is tangential to this issue - it merely puts
>> a floor under wages for unskilled labour.
>
> My understanding of the law of supply and demand is that it only
> operates under free market conditions which don't prevail here.
>
The only thing stopping it from being a free market *is* the minimum
wage. That's why the job my husband did paid �7 hour 10 years ago and
now pays minimum wage, even though it requires much more than an ambling
box-shifter.
Maria
PS. we have decided that we will probably have to go on the dole. I have
protested and protested about the situation for years, but still, we
just don't want to work apparently, so I am now happy for all of you to
pay for all of us until we are dead now, and those who don't believe the
reality, I hope are happy to pay for us. And when my children get their
degrees, you can ask them personally why they can't find work, like the
100,000 unemployed graduates out there at the moment. Once I would have
told them never to claim dole, but now I'll just say go ahead and good
luck to them.
Robert Henderson
<oldw...@theshoe.ac.uk> writes
>
>
>Mel, you have known me a long time, and I hope that you don't consider
>me to be a liar. Yesterday I saw my husband with tears in eyes again,
>because he cannot get full-time work to support us. When I met him ten
>years ago, he was working 12 hour shifts, and even now, he refuses to
>go on the dole. I don't understand why you refuse to believe that he
>and others like him simply cannot find work any longer. He is 50, and
>the agency books are full of 20-something Poles - what do you think?
>And don't say he's aiming too high - he has always earned minimum wage
>and still does. He is already hanging his head in shame, and not
>because he is lying, but because there is simply no work for him, and
>when there is, he is ignored. He has worked all his life in menial jobs
>- he cannot deal with not working. What shall I tell him?
A truly enraging state of affairs, Maria, RH
Farmer Giles
"Maria" <oldw...@theshoe.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:fcednYSO16LLQGTX...@bt.com...
Don't know why you waste your time on Mel Rowing, Maria, he inhabits a
different world to the rest of us. The real world of work in Britain is not
the one seen or envisaged by the superannuated ex public-sector workers like
Rowing and the others who get their information from media lies.
My youngest son graduated just over two years ago with a good masters degree
in civil engineering, and �20,000 worth of debt via student loans. He was
fortunate enough to get a job as soon as he left university as a junior
engineer. He has recently been made redundant, along with the rest of his
'team' - including his manager - because his company were getting fewer and
fewer orders. He is finding it very difficult to find another position, and
now is considering emigrating to New Zealand.
Never mind unqualified people of 50 years age, and over, struggling to find
work in today's Britain, it seems that well-qualified 24 year-olds are not
wanted here either!
Maria
It just feels really hopeless.
Maria
I just can't stand lies being spread as if they were truths. I believe
that Mel is so comfortable himself, that he is in denial (about quite a
lot of things).
>The real world of work in Britain is not
> the one seen or envisaged by the superannuated ex public-sector workers like
> Rowing and the others who get their information from media lies.
>
> My youngest son graduated just over two years ago with a good masters degree
> in civil engineering, and �20,000 worth of debt via student loans. He was
> fortunate enough to get a job as soon as he left university as a junior
> engineer. He has recently been made redundant, along with the rest of his
> 'team' - including his manager - because his company were getting fewer and
> fewer orders. He is finding it very difficult to find another position, and
> now is considering emigrating to New Zealand.
Very sorry to hear that - I hope he finds something soon. My daughter is
safely tucked away in college doing science now - the lad is going to do
A levels next year. I just hope that by the time they get out of
education, there will be something for them, but I have suggested that
they be prepared to look far further afield.
> Never mind unqualified people of 50 years age, and over, struggling to find
> work in today's Britain, it seems that well-qualified 24 year-olds are not
> wanted here either!
20% of the young are unemployed now (presumably not including those who
are still at Uni, on gap years, or who don't want to sign on. How many
more before the government will admit what is causing it?
nick 'little england' griffin
> > <oldwo...@theshoe.ac.uk> writes
but you work ?
Maria
Self-employed - not for much longer.
nick 'little england' griffin
tired of working ?
Robert Henderson
<falli...@holeinshoe.co.uk> writes
If you have not already done so, start kicking up a public fuss. Go and
see your MP. Tape record him surreptitiously. If he gives you the usual
pc guff take the tape to your local newspaper. Write honestly without
apology about your family's predicament - the way you have in this
thread - and send the letter to your local newspaper. Try to find others
in the area to start mounting demonstrations against foreign labour....