Norman Mailer on Bush's War
Stew
Tribune Media Services
Tuesday, February 25, 2003
Iraq is an excuse
LOS ANGELES - There is a subtext to what the Bushites are doing as
they prepare for war in Iraq. My hypothesis is that President George
W. Bush and many conservatives have come to the conclusion that the
only way they can save America and get if off its present downslope is
to become a regime with a greater military presence and drive toward
empire. My fear is that Americans might lose their democracy in the
process.
By downslope I'm referring not only to the corporate scandals, the
church scandals and the FBI scandals. The country has gone kind of
crazy in the eyes of conservatives. Also, kids can't read anymore.
Especially for conservatives, the culture has become too sexual.
Iraq is the excuse for moving in an imperial direction. War with Iraq,
as they originally conceived it, would be a quick, dramatic step that
would enable them to control the Near East as a powerful base - not
least because of the oil there, as well as the water supplies from the
Tigris and Euphrates rivers - to build a world empire.
The Bushites also expect to bring democracy to the region and believe
that in itself will help to diminish terrorism. But I expect the
opposite will happen: terrorists are not impressed by democracy. They
loathe it. They are fundamentalists of the most basic kind. The more
successful democracy is in the Near East - not likely in my view - the
more terrorism it will generate.
The only outstanding obstacle to the drive toward empire in the
Bushites' minds is China. Indeed, one of the great fears in the Bush
administration about America's downslope is that the "stem studies"
such as science, technology and engineering are all faring poorly in
U.S. universities. The number of American doctorates is going down and
down. But the number of Asians obtaining doctorates in those same stem
studies are increasing at a great rate.
Looking 20 years ahead, the administration perceives that there will
come a time when China will have technology superior to America's.
When that time comes, America might well say to China that "we can
work together," we will be as the Romans to you Greeks. You will be
our extraordinary, well-cultivated slaves. But don't try to dominate
us. That would be your disaster. This is the scenario that some of the
brightest neoconservatives are thinking about. (I use Rome as a
metaphor, because metaphors are usually much closer to the truth than
facts).
What has happened, of course, is that the Bushites have run into much
more opposition than they thought they would from other countries and
among the home population. It may well end up that we won't have a
war, but a new strategy to contain Iraq and wear Saddam down. If that
occurs, Bush is in terrible trouble.
My guess though, is that, like it or not, want it or not, America is
going to go to war because that is the only solution Bush and his
people can see.
The dire prospect that opens, therefore, is that America is going to
become a mega-banana republic where the army will have more and more
importance in Americans' lives. It will be an ever greater and greater
overlay on the American system. And before it is all over, democracy,
noble and delicate as it is, may give way. My long experience with
human nature - I'm 80 years old now - suggests that it is possible
that fascism, not democracy, is the natural state.
Indeed, democracy is the special condition - a condition we will be
called upon to defend in the coming years. That will be enormously
difficult because the combination of the corporation, the military and
the complete investiture of the flag with mass spectator sports has
set up a pre-fascistic atmosphere in America already.
---
Norman Mailer's latest book is "The Spooky Art: Some Thoughts on
Writing." This comment was adapted from remarks Feb. 22 to the Los
Angeles Institute for the Humanities and distributed by Global
Viewpoint/Tribune Media Services International.
<http://www.iht.com/articles/87763.html>
Dean Minns
"Stew" <3i5_83...@k345nbsgd.net> wrote in message
news:3e5bcff8...@news.io.com...
C. Pangus
Now let's see them call Mailer a weak-kneed, un-American liberal.
King Pineapple
message news:FET6a.1626$Wl3.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Now let's see them call Mailer a weak-kneed, un-American liberal.
His record speaks for itself. That "record", by the way, includes stabbing
his wife.
It is Mailer who infamously opined that the rubble of Ground Zero was “more
beautiful than the buildings” of the World Trade Center, which he likened to
“two huge buck teeth.”
He has described America as a nation of “cultural oppressors and aesthetic
oppressors” that largely invited the attacks on itself.
He has sneered at the “patriotic fever” of the last year, and denounced it
for going “too far.”
He has called the prospect of losing some 3,000 Americans annually to
9/11-style attacks a “tolerable level of terror,” undeserving of a military
response.
"The right wing benefited so much from Sept. 11,” he once remarked, “that if
I were still a conspiratorialist, I would believe they’d done it.”
"Y'see, unlike the libbies, I'd actually
ENJOY shooting you in the face over
and over and over and over and over,
like, LOOOOONG after you're dead."
"Iceknife"
NoSur...@never.net
wrote:
>Thanks for the post.
>
>"Stew" <3i5_83...@k345nbsgd.net> wrote in message
>news:3e5bcff8...@news.io.com...
>> Norman Mailer: Gaining an empire, losing democracy?
>> Tribune Media Services
>> Tuesday, February 25, 2003
>>
>> Iraq is an excuse
>>
>> LOS ANGELES - There is a subtext to what the Bushites are doing as
>> they prepare for war in Iraq. My hypothesis is that President George
>> W. Bush and many conservatives have come to the conclusion that the
>> only way they can save America and get if off its present downslope is
>> to become a regime with a greater military presence and drive toward
>> empire. My fear is that Americans might lose their democracy in the
>> process.
Sounds as if Normie is dribbling steamy bullshit again. Pitiful old
fool had one decent novel in him, and to this day thinks he has
a brain.
Cheerio...On to Baghdad...Cut and gut Sad Ham the Insane.
Dennis
NoSur...@never.net
Normie, the steamy bullshit dribbler, is a weak-kneed, un-American
liberal.
C. Pangus
"King Pineapple" <saddl...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:lYT6a.1604$M85.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
I'll even hazard a second bit of speculation: King Pineapple has not
read any really good books like Ancient Evenings which might have given him
some small insight to the culture of the Mid-East even before Islam.
C. Pangus
<NoSur...@never.net> wrote in message
news:443o5vkqinqvkaq95...@4ax.com...
Another entirely predictable barbarian vents.
MarkD....
> > Cheerio...On to Baghdad...Cut and gut Sad Ham the Insane.
> >
> > Dennis
>
> Another entirely predictable barbarian vents.
Indeed. And as always, one wonders just *where* this idiot *was* during all
those decades when the US supported, aided, and armed Saddam... I mean, the
US even *doubled* their level of aid to Saddam a few months after he
supposedly 'gassed his own people at Halabjah'...
I guess this guy must have had his head *way* up his own ass all those
years.
Some people are just so damn *easy* to manipulate: they'll hate whoever
they're told to...
M.
---
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.445 / Virus Database: 250 - Release Date: 22/01/2003
D.G. Porter
>
> Sounds as if Normie is dribbling steamy bullshit again. Pitiful old
> fool had one decent novel in him, and to this day thinks he has
> a brain.
Hey, fuckwit, even when he's plastered, Mailers literary skills and
knowledge of English make your crap look like the ramblings of a
festering swamp on a hot day.
--
Now on the Porter-Niekum menu:
FRENCH fries (from Idaho probably)
FRENCH-roast coffee (from South America most likely)
FRENCH'S mustard (pretty lame-n-tame but WTF)
FRENCH dip sandwiches at the corner greasyspoon
NO "Freedom ticklers," NO "Freedom kissing," and NO "Mr. Freedom" on
reruns of "Family Affair"!
§K¥ Wå£K€®
No doubt one of my favorite authors of all time, and even more so given his much needed
perspective on the recent political transformation taking over our nation.
Not many critics have hailed it as his best, but my favorite among his novels was Ancient
Evenings, for the utterly foreign sensibilities and sense of consciousness it evokes. I
honestly believed I had been offered an intimate glimpse into that ancient world when I
read it. Astounding book.
s.w.
"The worst forms of tyranny, or certainly the most successful ones,
are not those we rail against but those that so insinuate themselves
into the imagery of our consciousness, and the fabric of our lives,
as not to be perceived as tyranny."
--Michael Parenti
Wendall Blair
your mission in life to go around hating and seeking targets of that hate?
Paul Crowley
"MarkD...." <my.blocke...@bigtrousers.com> wrote in message
news:3e5c0...@news1.vip.uk.com...
Peace
<saddl...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Marginalized DNC Trivia "C. Pangus" <craig...@sprintmail.com> wrote in
>message news:FET6a.1626$Wl3.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
>
>> Now let's see them call Mailer a weak-kneed, un-American liberal.
>
>His record speaks for itself. That "record", by the way, includes stabbing
>his wife.
>
Yeah, and Dub's record includes coke and booze. so where does that
leave us?
James Fenimore
And as we lose the gains made in Afghanistan, even as we move
toward war against Iraq, we evince no ability to consolidate or secure
our 'victories.' So we really haven't achieved much, have we?
We're tossing $ billions at a lost drug 'war' in Colombia, and are
hell-bent on 'attacking' the so-called anti-government activists in
the Philippines. Of course, we're NOT going after North Korea -- too
strong and ruthless! Oh, and by the way, in case any of you failed to
notice, we LOST our first war against terrorism (1979-2001) on 11
Sept. 01. And there's no sign we are capable of winning Terrorism War
II, which got underway 12 Sept. 01. Naturally, our biggest test will
be China. Its mastodonically expanding economic, military and
political strengths will very soon cause U.S. foreign policy and
national security
programs bigtime problems -- throughout this century.
3i5_83...@k345nbsgd.net (Stew) wrote in message news:<3e5bcff8...@news.io.com>...
ro...@telus.net
wrote:
>Indeed, democracy is the special condition - a condition we will be
>called upon to defend in the coming years. That will be enormously
>difficult because the combination of the corporation, the military and
>the complete investiture of the flag with mass spectator sports has
>set up a pre-fascistic atmosphere in America already.
Very astute observation. But he forgot the key ingredient that now
makes genuine 1984-style fascism doable: control of culture and the
information/communications media by PR companies serving only the
interests of moneyed interests.
-- Roy L
Tempest
Of course, he's a conservative.
If it's not liberals, it's pacifists. If it's not pacifists, it's
abortion doctors. If not abortion doctors, it's blacks. If not blacks,
it's Jews. If not Jews, it's Arabs. And so on and so on.
--
"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and
causes me to tremble for the safety of my country; corporations have
been enthroned, an era of corruption in High Places will follow, and the
Money Power of the Country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working
upon the prejudices of the People, until the wealth is aggregated in a
few hands, and the Republic is destroyed."
- Abraham Lincoln
C. Pangus
"Paul Crowley" <left...@nutcase.org> wrote in message
news:8aW6a.849$Uy4....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Where was this lunatic when Klinton bombed Serbia back to the stone age?
>
Why is it you don't seem to understand the difference between genocide
in progress opposed by a coalition of neighboring states supported by the US
and a militarily effaced country under severe UN arms restrictions and
inspections, half starved by trade sanctions, being attacked and occupied by
countries thousands of miles away ?
Paul Crowley
that invaded two neighbors, tortures his own people, and uses poison gas on
hundreds of thousands of people.....
Poor guy.
"C. Pangus" <craig...@sprintmail.com> wrote in message
news:J0n7a.3871$M85.4...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
C. Pangus
> And saddam continues to spend 38% of GDP on his arsenal. This is the guy
> that invaded two neighbors, tortures his own people, and uses poison gas
on
> hundreds of thousands of people.....
> Poor guy
As usual, it takes a complete over-the-top warmongering idiot like Bush
to force fair, rational people to defend someone as reprehensible as Saddam.
First, he has not gassed "hundreds of thousands of people . . ." Second,
the US executes people and wheter or not we torture people depends on one's
veiwpoint. Third, he was repulsed in both invasions, the second by the US a
dozen years ago. Fourth, with constant air attacks from the north and south
for a dozen years and now over 200,000 troops ready to invade it is not
surprising that he spends a lot on defense.
What about a country which has been militarily involved in more foreign
countries than any other over the last few decades. What about a country
which currently has military troops in fighting positions in Columbia,
Afghanistan, Phillipines and others. What about a country which has more
than 300 military bases outside of its own borders ?
Today, Bush was so over-the-top that he declared that the current
governments of Muslims do not allow them the normal "aspirations of life."
In other words, as he has said many different ways, Bush is out to change
the form of government of all Muslim nations: a Cultural War.
MarkD....
>
> Second,
> the US executes people and whet[h]er or not we torture people depends on
one's
> v[ie]wpoint.
Absolutely correct in both cases. In fact, I seem to remember an Amnesty
International report from a couple of years back which declared that the
country which carried out the 21st century's *first executions* of *people
who were minors at the time their offence was committed* - in other words,
the first nation in the bright new century to execute people who were *child
criminals* - was the *USA*. Way to go, guys.
'Why do they hate us?'. You really wanna be told? Well, how long have you
got...?
NoSur...@never.net
<my.blocke...@bigtrousers.com> wrote:
>"C. Pangus" <craig...@sprintmail.com> wrote in message
>news:wYw7a.5199$Wl3.4...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>>
>
>> Second,
>> the US executes people and whet[h]er or not we torture people depends on
>one's
>> v[ie]wpoint.
>
>Absolutely correct in both cases. In fact, I seem to remember an Amnesty
>International report from a couple of years back which declared that the
>country which carried out the 21st century's *first executions* of *people
>who were minors at the time their offence was committed* - in other words,
>the first nation in the bright new century to execute people who were *child
>criminals* - was the *USA*. Way to go, guys.
>
>'Why do they hate us?'. You really wanna be told? Well, how long have you
>got...?
>
>M.
The more appropriate question is: Do I care if a bunch of silly-assed
effete socialists somewhere envy us? Do you really want my answer?
Cheerio...On to Baghdad...Cut and gut Sad Ham the Insane.
Dennis
>
>
>
MarkD....
news:v1e16vkb700joop3dl9o7lgqu55fbk0rrf@4
> >
> >'Why do they hate us?'. You really wanna be told? Well, how long have you
> >got...?
> >
> >M.
>
> The more appropriate question is: Do I care if a bunch of silly-assed
> effete socialists somewhere envy us? Do you really want my answer?
>
> Cheerio...On to Baghdad...Cut and gut Sad Ham the Insane.
Same old same old. As my grandma used to say: 'Once a nation of imperialist,
oil-mad, murdering thugs, always a nation of imperialist, oil-mad, murdering
thugs. ..
M.
---
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.445 / Virus Database: 250 - Release Date: 21/01/2003
NoSur...@never.net
<my.blocke...@bigtrousers.com> wrote:
><NoSur...@never.net> wrote in message
>news:v1e16vkb700joop3dl9o7lgqu55fbk0rrf@4
>> >
>> >'Why do they hate us?'. You really wanna be told? Well, how long have you
>> >got...?
>> >
>> >M.
>>
>> The more appropriate question is: Do I care if a bunch of silly-assed
>> effete socialists somewhere envy us? Do you really want my answer?
>>
>
>
>Same old same old. As my grandma used to say: 'Once a nation of imperialist,
>oil-mad, murdering thugs, always a nation of imperialist, oil-mad, murdering
>thugs. ..
>
>M.
I doubt your grandmama was that hate-filled or mean-sprited...or
lacking the intelligence, sophistication, and education you obviously
missed somewhere along the way.
Cheerio...On to Baghdad...Cut and gut Sad Ham the Insane.
Dennis
Tim Crowley
<NoSur...@never.net> wrote in message
>
> I doubt your grandmama was that hate-filled or mean-sprited...or
> lacking the intelligence, sophistication, and education you obviously
> missed somewhere along the way.
>
> Cheerio...On to Baghdad...Cut and gut Sad Ham the Insane.
>
> Dennis
my irony meter just peaked. uh, enjoy your stay in the twit filter.
MarkD....
news:81126vgbmulu29v2o5p4pk93romip4ap1i@
>
> I doubt your grandmama was that hate-filled or mean-sprited...or
> lacking the intelligence, sophistication, and education you obviously
> missed somewhere along the way.
She just knew a lot about US history, sonny; certainly she wasn't full of
hate. I mean, she never *once* sent the CIA to depose a democratically
elected government (or to support anti-democratic terrorists or tyrants) *in
her whole life*...
M.
NoSur...@never.net
<my.blocke...@bigtrousers.com> wrote:
><NoSur...@never.net> wrote in message
>news:81126vgbmulu29v2o5p4pk93romip4ap1i@
>>
>> I doubt your grandmama was that hate-filled or mean-sprited...or
>> lacking the intelligence, sophistication, and education you obviously
>> missed somewhere along the way.
>
>She just knew a lot about US history, sonny; certainly she wasn't full of
>hate. I mean, she never *once* sent the CIA to depose a democratically
>elected government (or to support anti-democratic terrorists or tyrants) *in
>her whole life*...
She obviously never had intelligent grandchildren, either.
Cheerio..On to Baghdad...Cut and gut Sad Ham the Insane.
Dennis
>
MarkD....
<NoSur...@never.net> wrote in message
news:qdl26vko7l18332ic...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 1 Mar 2003 23:00:43 -0000, "MarkD...."
> <my.blocke...@bigtrousers.com> wrote:
>
> ><NoSur...@never.net> wrote in message
> >news:81126vgbmulu29v2o5p4pk93romip4ap1i@
> >>
> >> I doubt your grandmama was that hate-filled or mean-sprited...or
> >> lacking the intelligence, sophistication, and education you obviously
> >> missed somewhere along the way.
> >
> >She just knew a lot about US history, sonny; certainly she wasn't full of
> >hate. I mean, she never *once* sent the CIA to depose a democratically
> >elected government (or to support anti-democratic terrorists or tyrants)
*in
> >her whole life*...
>
> She obviously never had intelligent grandchildren, either.
Yup. All those *university degrees* merely fell out of the sky and landed on
the wrong person.
Just like all those supposedly 'smart munitions'...
Harlan Shaeffer
news:qdl26vko7l18332ic...@4ax.com:
> Cheerio..On to Baghdad...Cut and gut Sad Ham the Insane.
>
> Dennis
You gotta love dittoheads like this one. Whatever they get from the mass
media, they gleefully parrot with the passion of a true believer.
Good thing you know the TRUTH, dittohead. Idiot.
>
>
>>
>>M.
>>
>>
>>---
>>
>>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>>Version: 6.0.445 / Virus Database: 250 - Release Date: 21/01/2003
>>
>
--
Right-Wingers & Zionists: the reasons America is now hated worldwide
NoSur...@never.net
<my.blocke...@bigtrousers.com> wrote:
>
><NoSur...@never.net> wrote in message
>news:qdl26vko7l18332ic...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 1 Mar 2003 23:00:43 -0000, "MarkD...."
>> <my.blocke...@bigtrousers.com> wrote:
>>
>> ><NoSur...@never.net> wrote in message
>> >news:81126vgbmulu29v2o5p4pk93romip4ap1i@
>> >>
>> >> I doubt your grandmama was that hate-filled or mean-sprited...or
>> >> lacking the intelligence, sophistication, and education you obviously
>> >> missed somewhere along the way.
>> >
>> >She just knew a lot about US history, sonny; certainly she wasn't full of
>> >hate. I mean, she never *once* sent the CIA to depose a democratically
>> >elected government (or to support anti-democratic terrorists or tyrants)
>*in
>> >her whole life*...
>>
>> She obviously never had intelligent grandchildren, either.
>
>
>Yup. All those *university degrees* merely fell out of the sky and landed on
>the wrong person.
Interesting and revealing...you condemn yourself out of your own
mouth...so much for those self-esteem courses at the Close Cover
Before Striking Academy, eh!
Cheerio..On to Baghdad...Cut and gut Sad Ham the Insane.
Dennis
NoSur...@never.net
wrote:
>NoSur...@never.net wrote in
>news:qdl26vko7l18332ic...@4ax.com:
>
>
>> Cheerio..On to Baghdad...Cut and gut Sad Ham the Insane.
>>
>> Dennis
>
>You gotta love dittoheads like this one. Whatever they get from the mass
>media, they gleefully parrot with the passion of a true believer.
>
>Good thing you know the TRUTH, dittohead.
Thank you ...thank you very much.
Cheerio..On to Baghdad...Cut and gut Sad Ham the Insane.
Dennis
>
>>
>>
>>>
D.G. Porter
NoSur...@never.net wrote:
>
> Cheerio..On to Baghdad...Cut and gut Sad Ham the Insane.
--