Fight The H-1B Fiasco!

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Got Root?

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Apr 6, 2002, 11:47:02 PM4/6/02
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Fight The H-1B Fiasco! A C T N O W!
www.HireAmericanCitizens.org - Learn About H-1B and Help Stop It!

If we are to protect America's position as a high technology nation, and
nurture interest in American citizens seeking advanced degrees in
technology, we must eliminate the H-1B High-Tech Temporary Worker Visa
program.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 8.3 million Americans are now
unemployed. Under current H-1B law, over a half a million foreign high-tech
workers will be admitted to the U.S. over the next three years. Over
890,000 H-1B high-tech workers are already in the U.S. working in the
computer industry.

At a time when hundreds of thousands of American citizens in the computer
industry have lost their jobs, and mass-layoffs are announced daily, one
must question the sense in continuing to import foreign high-tech workers.

There is not a shortage of American high-tech workers in the computer
industry. There never has been. Studies sponsored by the American
government have never shown a shortage of American workers in the computer
industry, but congress still increased the quota for foreign high-tech
workers.

The H-1B laws are seriously flawed and have not only displaced American
workers during a weak economy, but also put national security at risk.
Hiring foreign high-tech workers and giving them full access to sensitive
and private data in our American computers is a risk not worth taking.

There are provisions in the H-1B visa laws that were supposed to protect
American workers. However, these laws are not being enforced, and the
gaping loopholes in the H-1B laws are being abused. As now evidenced by the
current employment picture in the computer industry, American workers do not
have protection against this government sponsored worker replacement
program. Any company, once they acquire an H-1B worker, can let an American
worker go.

Companies are still importing foreign computer programmers at the same time
that American computer programmers are out of work, and thousands more lose
their jobs each day. The H-1B visa program was supposed to provide
"temporary" workers during times of increased hiring, but failed to provide
any adjustments for a downturn in the economy.

We must protect the futures of our American high-tech workers, and the
futures of our American students seeking advanced technical degrees. We
must protect the vast amount of sensitive and personal computer data that
foreigners should not have access to by reducing the H-1B quota and
eventually eliminating the H-1B visa program.

Check-out the rest of this site, and explore the links page. Learn as much
as you can about the H-1B program. Then share what you have learned with
your friends and family, and get them involved. The best way to help is to
contact your representatives and tell them how you feel. The Related Links
page has links to websites that can assist you in finding and writing your
representatives.

Time is running out. America has already lost many of its best jobs to
foreigners. More and more high-tech jobs are being lost every day to
"Temporary" foreign workers under the H-1B program. Contact your
representatives by phone, fax, and email and tell them to stop giving
America's prized high-tech jobs to foreigners. Write letters to your
newspapers and call American citizens to action.

Fight The H-1B Fiasco! A C T N O W!
www.HireAmericanCitizens.org - Learn About H-1B and Help Stop It!

InsuranceBroker

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Apr 7, 2002, 9:45:02 AM4/7/02
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>Subject: Fight The H-1B Fiasco!
>From: "Got Root?" Admini...@HireAmericanCitizens.org
>Date: 4/7/2002 12:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id:

>If we are to protect America's position as a high technology nation, and
>nurture interest in American citizens seeking advanced degrees in
>technology, we must eliminate the H-1B High-Tech Temporary Worker Visa
>program.
>

Very True and the only hope of doing that is to fire your existing congressman.
This horrible law only exist because the computer corporations have provided
much political payoff.
The record of our congress in protecting American workers is dismal. This
Novemeber protect you job by putting an incumbant out of work
Doing Insurance business in the Garden State

james_t_kirk

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Apr 7, 2002, 9:57:18 AM4/7/02
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I thought that good americans had to believe in capitalism?


"Got Root?" <Admini...@HireAmericanCitizens.org> wrote in message
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InsuranceBroker

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Apr 7, 2002, 10:06:33 AM4/7/02
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>Subject: Re: Fight The H-1B Fiasco!
>From: "james_t_kirk" james_...@lycos.co.uk
>Date: 4/7/2002 9:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <a8pj77$66h$1

>I thought that good americans had to believe in capitalism?

Really and what would a program paid for with political contributions have to
do with capitalism. Capitalism would have the employer pay what the market
bears not find cheap labor and import them. You can argue that it would but
then again coporations pay almost no taxes so you forget that American is
paying the price to support all the little wars of the world while India does
not. India provides 46 percent of the guess workers.

So why you talk about capitalism please note the point the coporate bought
programs really is the lack of capitalism.

Bill Mech

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Apr 7, 2002, 10:24:20 AM4/7/02
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What does over loose immigration policy have to do with a belief in
Capitalism? Also, Americans have never believed in or practiced unfettered
and unregulated capitalism.

The power of money has provided business with excessive influence over laws
and regulations that effect business profits at the expense of fairness to
the general public.

H-1B is a classic example which permits businesses to employee cheep foreign
labor at the expense of citizens. Our overly generous immigration quotas
and almost total lack of control of entry of illegal aliens is to permit
business to hire cheap labor at the expense of the general public.
--
Bill Mech
wm...@att.net
For info on politics, taxes, education etc., go to
http://home.att.net/~wmech

"james_t_kirk" <james_...@lycos.co.uk> wrote in message
news:a8pj77$66h$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...

RobtCohen

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Apr 7, 2002, 10:28:03 AM4/7/02
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Re: restricting high tech industry employees by way of curbing "foreign" labor
migration:

I currently use a Compaq Presario 7594, and notice that a technological
question--whether written or by telephone--has been responded-to by an Indian
technician apparently residing within India.

The high tech industry is very adaptive to the merit and the lower cost of the
offshore.

A building boom is propping-up the
American economy.

Mexican origin construction workers--whether green carded or whatever--
are responsible for the low inflation in housing prices in my Atlanta area.

The situation of overall increasing unemployment in the U.S.

The service sector is another segment in which Latino and other foreign workers
are meeting the demand in the U.S.

I notice that the workers in hotels in NYC and Biloxi, Mississippi, where I
have stayed at are mostly--though certainly not all--foreign-accented.

A hotel bell captain in NYC was definitely from Rumania--I asked him.

What this all means to me is that
foreigners are an economic necessity, and they are responsible for much of the
growth and the minimal inflation.

If this causes me to be a pro--globalist, then that's the way the fortune
cookie at the nearby Chinese restaurant crumbles.

There are more Chinese restaurants in the Atlanta area than Southern barbeque
restaurants.

Do I think that xenophobic legislation restricting imported high tech workers
is a good thing?

If it would work in the utilitarian interest, but neither the greatest nor
smallest high tech companies necessarily have to be totally in Redland and
San Jose where the real estate prices are so @#$%^&*()_+ outrageous anyhow.

An open or partially accessible marketplace does have a way of adapting to
supply/demand.

What can we do as political-economic policy influencrers about the reported
rising unemployment by American software
and technological engineers ?

1. Break-up MSFT, but that leads to dominoes and chaos.

2. Re-training via govt funding.

3. Have a Robin Williams--Willy Nelson--Whoopi Goldberg--Steve Martin
concert, PUTER-AID, to head- off re-possession of Jeep Cherokees and Lexus
SUV's.

4. Three words: SURREPTICIOUS CHIP IMPLANTS in Dick Cheney's advisories.

5. Listen to tapes of George Gilder overr and over until mass suicide madness.

6. Dump chips in ocean in order to get prices back-up.

7. Unionization a la NORMA RAY but with West Coast accent.

8. Federalize Intel.

9. Develop a Pentagon-funded network for survival of a nuclear war, and a great
way for the enjoyment of porno--uhhh, that's already been done, but why not
another to dry up the fibre-optic surplus.

10. Extended Globalization in order to cultivate new markets for all the
technological chotskies (gimmicks, fodder).


InsuranceBroker

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Apr 7, 2002, 11:09:25 AM4/7/02
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>Subject: Re: Fight The H-1B Fiasco!
>From: robt...@aol.comnospam (RobtCohen)
>Date: 4/7/2002 10:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20020407102803...@mb-ml.aol.com>

>I currently use a Compaq Presario 7594, and notice that a technological
>question--whether written or by telephone--has been responded-to by an Indian
>technician apparently residing within India.

>The high tech industry is very adaptive to the merit and the lower cost of
>the
>offshore.
>

Really that is why Compaq is about to disappear and HP which is the buy is
about only one step ahead of bankrupcy.

>The situation of overall increasing unemployment in the U.S.

Is usually a lie of the globalist.

>The service sector is another segment in which Latino and other foreign
>workers
>are meeting the demand in the U.S

Of course they work for next to nothing. Shortly the Vietnames will be cheap
than the Indian and it will be interesting how the arrogant Indians like becing
called expensive?

>I notice that the workers in hotels in NYC and Biloxi, Mississippi, where I
>have stayed at are mostly--though certainly not all--foreign-accented.

So do you think the places are better. I happen to avoid those places like the
plague. >What this all means to me is that

>foreigners are an economic necessity, and they are responsible for much of
>the
>growth and the minimal inflation.

So do you think the country is better with less inflation caused by people
losing thier jobs to people who cannot find work in thier own country but
continue to have out of control birth rate?

>If this causes me to be a pro--globalist, then that's the way the fortune
>cookie at the nearby Chinese restaurant crumbles.

Well shortly you will be working in a chinese restaurant if you are lucky.

>Do I think that xenophobic legislation restricting imported high tech workers
>is a good thing?

Do you think the flood gate of cheap labor from places that cannot control
thier birth rates is a good thing? I guess you do not understand it is much
like feeding rats. Their populaiton will continue to grow as long as they have
a food source. So do you want to live in a Ghetto of India or a new Ghetto in
the United States caused by our new immigrates. Do you realize that the census
department has posted that the population of the United Staes will be over 500
million in 50 years. That is almost 5 times what it was at the end of WWII.

>An open or partially accessible marketplace does have a way of adapting to
>supply/demand.

The supply of cheap labor is directly related to their inability to keep their
zippers zipped in the face of thier inability to support their children. The
supply of cheap labor thus is unlimited with the idiot who support globalist.
When we do determine we have to much supply we can have a nice war to eliminate
the oversupply. Do you want to be the first to die to reduce inventory of
cheap bodies?

>What can we do as political-economic policy influencrers about the reported
>rising unemployment by American software
>and technological engineers ?

Stop feeding the rats!

>1. Break-up MSFT, but that leads to dominoes and chaos.

But MSFT is chaos with out being broken up. Why else would it feel that it
needs to be a monopoly?

>2. Re-training via govt funding.
>

Why not corporate trainning. Do you really think that Ken Lay needed two
houses in the ski town of Aspen. Maybe he could exist with one multimillion
dollar weekend place to sleep at least in one town.


>8. Federalize Intel.

We could stop giving Intel huge coporate welfare by providing cheap foreing
workers.

>10. Extended Globalization in order to cultivate new markets for all the
>technological chotskies (gimmicks, fodder).

Their is no indication that Globalizism does anything but lead to wars.

Race is Real

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Apr 7, 2002, 11:10:47 AM4/7/02
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You are very right. Import labor, and your own citizens look elsewhere for
their jobs.

http://www.amren.com/colrcrim.html

"Got Root?" <Admini...@HireAmericanCitizens.org> wrote in message
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InsuranceBroker

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Apr 7, 2002, 12:50:45 PM4/7/02
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>Subject: Re: Fight The H-1B Fiasco!
>From: "Race is Real" race_i...@lycos.com
>Date: 4/7/2002 11:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <a8ppfq$2mf$0...@dosa.alt.net>

>You are very right. Import labor, and your own citizens look elsewhere for
>their jobs.

Since they are importing the more expensive computer people that means that
they lower paying jobs are what is left of Americans.

Anyone who votes for an Incumbent congressman should not wonder why they have
nothing in the future.

gmb

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Apr 7, 2002, 2:18:20 PM4/7/02
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"Got Root?" <Admini...@HireAmericanCitizens.org> wrote in message
news:abQr8.8512$Rw2.7...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

I think something like a million immigrants enter the US per
year. Perhaps without them the US population would drop
significantly every year, suburban expansion would slow down
drastically, together with economic growth, and house prices
would drop and the US would fall into a quick depression.
The solution: Americans need to have more sex and children.
As I understand most immigrants are either direct relatives
to American citizens or high-skill workers.

But being a software engineer without a job for a year now
I see your point when I see nearly half of software engineers
brought in by consulting companies from India for low wages.
Just visit Microsoft and see. Not to say, the programmers
who come here are incredibly sharp "people".

It is a problem, isn't it. The price of capitalism, you have
to give up your prejudice and nationalism and think
globally (Made in China?).

George

InsuranceBroker

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Apr 7, 2002, 2:37:14 PM4/7/02
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>Subject: Re: Fight The H-1B Fiasco!
>From: "gmb" g...@nomail.com
>Date: 4/7/2002 2:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <M30s8.184854$ZR2....@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>
>

>I think something like a million immigrants enter the US per
>year. Perhaps without them the US population would drop
>significantly every year, suburban expansion would slow down

Which would be excellent.

>drastically, together with economic growth, and house prices
>would drop

Nay they would just stop building for expanding population. Thier would be new
houses concstruct for those that want to move up.

>and the US would fall into a quick depression.

Nay not a chance of that.

>The solution: Americans need to have more sex and children.

Nothing wrong with more sex but I think most responsible families have enough
childrens. Why not stop the out of control births in India and other poverty
places.

>As I understand most immigrants are either direct relatives
>to American citizens or high-skill workers.

That then replace existing high skill americnas. So they are not needed and
cause great dislocation. If they are skill then they can make it in thier own
country.

>But being a software engineer without a job for a year now
>I see your point when I see nearly half of software engineers
>brought in by consulting companies from India for low wages.

India has 3 million computers for the entire country. That is proably less
than New York city so clearly thier claims of years of experence is a fraud.

>Just visit Microsoft and see. Not to say, the programmers
>who come here are incredibly sharp "people".
>

Most of the foreign workers are clearly average in abilities. In most cases
they do not handle difficult work. >It is a problem, isn't it. The price of
capitalism, you have

>to give up your prejudice and nationalism and think
>globally (Made in China?).

Only if you want to live on a reservation. Just remember the most important
thing to do this november is to fire you congressman.

Mike Coburn

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Apr 7, 2002, 5:22:44 PM4/7/02
to
RobtCohen wrote:
>
> Re: restricting high tech industry employees by way of curbing "foreign" labor
> migration:
>
> I currently use a Compaq Presario 7594, and notice that a technological
> question--whether written or by telephone--has been responded-to by an Indian
> technician apparently residing within India.

Fine... No problem.
As an aside, maybe we won't be buying any more Compaq's. I never
bought one in the first place and prefer to build my own. And I try
to use something other than Intel because I don't want a monopoly
in the hardware business any more than in the software business.
Most technoids in the US have no fear at all about this kind of
thing. This is NOT an H1B issue.

> The high tech industry is very adaptive to the merit and the lower cost of the
> offshore.

This is not at issue but it is very typical of tap dancing
Republitarians to obfuscate an moralize about free trade
instead of speaking to the H1B issue.

> A building boom is propping-up the
> American economy.

More of the same. tap, tap, tap.... dance, dance, dance.

> Mexican origin construction workers--whether green carded or whatever--
> are responsible for the low inflation in housing prices in my Atlanta area.

And also, we might add, for the escalating land prices and the
dismal wages. And this has NOTHING to do wuth H1B

tap, tap, tap.... dance, dance, dance



> The situation of overall increasing unemployment in the U.S.

As more and more people enter the US there will be more and more
people employed. This will be trumpeted as increasing employment.
The problem with this stupidity is this idea that people really WANT
to be working their butts off for low wages. I don't really
know if H1B's are counted in the statistics of more employment,
but immigration is not the subject nor is the increasing
toil and drudgery caused by it. The subject is H1B temporary
work visas.

Again you tap, tap, tap.... dance, dance, dance



> The service sector is another segment in which Latino and other foreign workers
> are meeting the demand in the U.S.

Horseshit! So long as the rich people can get the lawn taken care
of for less wages they are happier than a pig in shit. And again
you are talking about immigration.

tap, tap, tap.... dance, dance, dance

>
> I notice that the workers in hotels in NYC and Biloxi, Mississippi, where I
> have stayed at are mostly--though certainly not all--foreign-accented.

I wonder what happened to the Americans that had those jobs and I
wonder what immigration has to do with H1B.

tap, tap, tap.... dance, dance, dance

> A hotel bell captain in NYC was definitely from Rumania--I asked him.

tap, tap, tap.... dance, dance, dance



> What this all means to me is that
> foreigners are an economic necessity, and they are responsible for much of the
> growth and the minimal inflation.

This is just too good to pass up: You think that for one of two
reasons:

1. You are an aristocratic monopolist that believes in the
subjugation of the producers in the economy to the whims
of the noble land (and other means of production) owners.
2. You are an idiot..

>
> If this causes me to be a pro--globalist, then that's the way the fortune
> cookie at the nearby Chinese restaurant crumbles.

See above.



> There are more Chinese restaurants in the Atlanta area than Southern barbeque
> restaurants.

Great! I'll bet that very few of these people are here on H1B visas.
A lot of the customers probably are though. The American workers
that would have been frequenting these establishments are working
at Mickey D's.

> Do I think that xenophobic legislation restricting imported high tech workers
> is a good thing?
>
> If it would work in the utilitarian interest, but neither the greatest nor
> smallest high tech companies necessarily have to be totally in Redland and
> San Jose where the real estate prices are so @#$%^&*()_+ outrageous anyhow.
>
> An open or partially accessible marketplace does have a way of adapting to
> supply/demand.
>
> What can we do as political-economic policy influencrers about the reported
> rising unemployment by American software
> and technological engineers ?
>
> 1. Break-up MSFT, but that leads to dominoes and chaos.

Finally, we have something on topic and actually beneficial. But
please note that the Republitarian simply drops the "chaos"
cookie and runs. Proper development of the information highway
is the death of the Microsoft monopoly. Note that this is not
the same thing as the death of Microsoft. The company has some
good stuff and they will remain in the loop so long as they do
and there is NOTHING wrong with that.



> 2. Re-training via govt funding.

In the technology sector this is not a problem at all. I constantly
retrain myself every day of the week and if you don't do so then
you will simply not have a job in the technology sector. You really
do have to "love the game" or you can't participate.

<< deletia >>

--
Mike Coburn

"It's the tax system, stupid. No, it's the ludicrous
banking system. Well, actually, its both." -- Mike Coburn

"Rentier: A person who has a fixed income from land,
bonds, etc." -- Webster's dictionary.

InsuranceBroker

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Apr 7, 2002, 5:40:44 PM4/7/02
to
>Subject: Re: Fight The H-1B Fiasco!
>From: Mike Coburn mik...@gte.net
>Date: 4/7/2002 5:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id:

>Great! I'll bet that very few of these people are here on H1B visas.


>A lot of the customers probably are though. The American workers
>that would have been frequenting these establishments are working
>at Mickey D's.

There happens to be a huge number of h1-b visas workers along with their
families. There happens to be a huge number of American workers now out of
work. There is nothing good that can be said for this horrible put americans
out of work law.

>In the technology sector this is not a problem at all. I constantly
>retrain myself every day of the week and if you don't do so then
>you will simply not have a job in the technology sector. You really
>do have to "love the game" or you can't participate.

It is sometimes impossible to retrian yourself. The release is not available
in many cases and companies who then can hire cheap foreigners who just happen
to have been provided that release prior to it being available to American. I
have watched many people who have just picked up the latest release but they
also got cut. It sort of tells that they companies are really after the cheap
wages and not the trainning. It is also pretty clear that corporations are
very much into age discrimination.

>Horseshit! So long as the rich people can get the lawn taken care
>of for less wages they are happier than a pig in shit. And again
>you are talking about immigration.

If only the rich people would settle for the lawn. In the New Jersey shore
they are importing large number of East European kids to work the summers.
Those kids will work the 12 hours and accept 8 hours pay. American kids know
they are being explointed and take a hike.

Mike Coburn

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Apr 7, 2002, 7:43:47 PM4/7/02
to

Population increase in the 90's was 13% or 32.5 million most
of which was immigration. It is significantly more than
1 million per year and this has nothing to do with H1B.

Perhaps without them the US population would drop
> significantly every year,

Yipeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!

suburban expansion would slow down
> drastically,

WOOOOOOOOONDEERRRFUUUUUUULLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!

together with economic growth,

Not necessarily so, and if so, then such a drop
does not automatically equate to bad, and in this
case it would not be bad at all.

and house prices
> would drop

HORRAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

and the US would fall into a quick depression.

Only if we stand around and let rich people run the
country.

> The solution: Americans need to have more sex and children.

More sex is fine with me...

> As I understand most immigrants are either direct relatives
> to American citizens or high-skill workers.

That is because you have been brainwashed by H1B advocates.



> But being a software engineer without a job for a year now
> I see your point when I see nearly half of software engineers
> brought in by consulting companies from India for low wages.

You are suppose to be smatter than to believe the
stuff you are babbling about.

> Just visit Microsoft and see. Not to say, the programmers
> who come here are incredibly sharp "people".

OH? I thought you were trying to tell us that these H1B
people are smarter or more talented, or more capable than
the Americans they are replacing. That, of course, is an
outright lie perpetrated by Republicans and Democrats alike.



> It is a problem, isn't it. The price of capitalism, you have
> to give up your prejudice and nationalism and think
> globally (Made in China?).

Maybe you should actually _THINK_ about he _good_ parts of
capitalism and leave the monopolistic rentierism out of it.
Sovereignties have a purpose though such sovereignties should
not restrict free trade OF GOODS. The rental of wage
slaves from India and Pakistan is a different matter entirely.
While less expensive steel can be a good thing for all Americans
if the steel workers are protected from loss of income and
afforded other opportunities, the direct replacement of them
with rented robots from Mexico so that the steel mill owners
can fleece the public would not be in the best interest of the vast
majority of Americans. The H1B situation is exactly equivalent
to the use of Mexicans as robots in the steel industry. We
are screwing the American wage earners and reducing the
standard of living in the United States for the benefit of the
owners of the means of production. The reduction of wages and
the taxation of wages prevents the productive people in the
society from acquiring significant ownership in the means
of production, from becoming wealthy enough to ever think of
retirement. It is called "RENT", and it is the heart and
soul on monopoly privilege. We can have capitalism without
undue rents and rentierism.

http://GreaterVoice.org

InsuranceBroker

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Apr 7, 2002, 10:25:07 PM4/7/02
to
>Subject: Re: Fight The H-1B Fiasco!
>From: Mike Coburn mik...@gte.net
>Date: 4/7/2002 7:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3CB0D901...@gte.net>
>

>Population increase in the 90's was 13% or 32.5 million most
>of which was immigration. It is significantly more than
>1 million per year and this has nothing to do with H1B.

But it will in the future because every bady born to an h1-b while in the
united states is a citizen by birth. You are talking about group like the
Indias who have extremely high birth rates. The h1-b is about as bad as any
law that was ever written.

Do american good...fire an incumbent congressman in November

Mike Coburn

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Apr 7, 2002, 11:41:45 PM4/7/02
to
InsuranceBroker wrote:
>
> >Subject: Re: Fight The H-1B Fiasco!
> >From: Mike Coburn mik...@gte.net
> >Date: 4/7/2002 7:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <3CB0D901...@gte.net>
> >
>
> >Population increase in the 90's was 13% or 32.5 million most
> >of which was immigration. It is significantly more than
> >1 million per year and this has nothing to do with H1B.
>
> But it will in the future because every bady born to an h1-b while in the
> united states is a citizen by birth. You are talking about group like the
> Indias who have extremely high birth rates. The h1-b is about as bad as any
> law that was ever written.

Please see http://GreaterVoice.org and then think about the
possibility of H1B legislation EVER having become law if the
House of Representatives would have been composed of 4000
locally officed representatives. It isn't _just_ H1B, and
immigration. It is also the tax laws and the whole mess.
And when we fix one leak they will just find some other
fancy way to lie and mislead and legislate our lives away.
H1B needs to be addressed immediately. No long winded
philosophical debate over representation is needed to let
congress know about the problem. But in the broader context,
we have a very serious problem with our non representative
House of Representatives that spans both parties and all
sorts of economic issues.

> Do american good...fire an incumbent congressman in November

I will probably do exactly that if I can find someone to
replace him with. But look at what you actually have here:
You have no choice but the TwoParty. Please, Please, Please
look at http://GreaterVoice.org

And ___***THINK***___!

> Doing Insurance business in the Garden State

--

Mike Coburn

unread,
Apr 8, 2002, 2:52:24 AM4/8/02
to
CJS wrote:
>
> X-No-Archive: Yes

>
> Got Root? wrote:
> >
> > Fight The H-1B Fiasco! A C T N O W!
> > www.HireAmericanCitizens.org - Learn About H-1B and Help Stop It!
>
> So you're *happy* about the nursing shortage???

Too many MBA degrees and not enough nurses? Wonder what could
have caused such a problem. Whatever it is, we need to get it
fixed instead of using H1B visas. If people are paid very well
for learning to be a nurse then there will be sufficient
nurses. Strange how that works. something about an "Invisible
Hand", I think.

The H1B patch simply reduces wages and discourages people from
pursuing a career in whatever field is "attacked" by H1B's.

InsuranceBroker

unread,
Apr 8, 2002, 9:19:01 AM4/8/02
to
>Subject: Re: Fight The H-1B Fiasco!
>From: CJS craigsh...@SPAMmindspring.com
>Date: 4/8/2002 12:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3CB1202F...@SPAMmindspring.com>

>
>So you're *happy* about the nursing shortage???
>

For thirty years they have treated nurse badly. The hospitals have made it a
very bad career to work. THe shortage of nurse was created by the ability to
go to the third world and get people to fill slots. THe same thing is
happening in the comptuer industry. There is not shortage but the more they
allow cheap semiskilled programmers and admin type take our job the more
managment can make those jobs undesirable. Were there is not shortage, bad
guess worker laws create one.

If you cannot get you bed pan changed in your old age, just understand you did
it to yourself by support bad laws like the h1-b guess worker law.

Do something to help American...this Novermenber fire your incumbent
Congressman.

InsuranceBroker

unread,
Apr 8, 2002, 9:23:59 AM4/8/02
to
>Subject: Re: Fight The H-1B Fiasco!
>From: Mike Coburn mik...@gte.net
>Date: 4/8/2002 2:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3CB13D7A...@gte.net>

>Too many MBA degrees and not enough nurses? Wonder what could
>have caused such a problem.

That is easy to answer. Thirty years ago they got congress to allow guess
workers into the nurses. They flooded the country with cheap labor. The
American woman who use to go to nurse school saw what was happening and did not
go to school.
The working conditions of the general nurse became horrible.

>Whatever it is, we need to get it
>fixed instead of using H1B visas

The problem was created by the h1-b visa program. You not going to get the
hospital admin who makes a million a year to want to hire an American at a poor
wage when you can hire someone from a really poor nation for poverty wagess.

> If people are paid very well
>for learning to be a nurse then there will be sufficient
>nurses.

If one cannot make a living at being a nurse then you are going to have a
shortage.

>Strange how that works. something about an "Invisible
>Hand", I think.

That same invisible hand is working in the computer industry. There never was
a skill shortage in the computer industry but the h1-b is quickly creating one.
In the case of the computer industry they have companies that are actually
setting up learning centers to get cheap bodies. At least in the Nursing
industry there was not huge international evel behind the process.

>The H1B patch simply reduces wages and discourages people from
>pursuing a career in whatever field is "attacked" by H1B's.

YOu are 100 percent correct!

machismo64

unread,
Apr 8, 2002, 9:52:39 AM4/8/02
to
Then again, H1B and such are effective ways for America to get smart and
plucky people from other countries to come here. While here, those folks
expand the tax base and add more skill and intelligence to the U.S. work
force which aids our international competitiveness. Some of them stay and
permanently add their skills to our melting pot. Others who go home with
generally good experiences are good PR for us in places where the media
might be state controlled and heavily slanted against this country. These
talented people might even one day rise to leadership positions in their
native countries and remember us fondly when making policy.

RobtCohen

unread,
Apr 8, 2002, 10:14:23 AM4/8/02
to
Re: Nurse--and teacher--shortage phenomena, and other trends in the
twenty-first century

Women no longer are restricted to being (mostly) the secretaries, clerks,
teachers and nurses.

There is reportedly an over-supply of nurses available in Utah.

Brigham Young Univ reportedly graduates more registered nurses than can find
work in Utah.

What are the economic-social-political
implications ?

Talk amongst yourselves about:

1. As more county-owned hospitals are privatized, the traditional duties and
responsibilities of the professional staffs
will be changed so as to obtain more efficient exploitation for the buck a la
Prominia, Columbia, Kaiser, and the Hospital Corp of America.

2. Them thar fereigners imported to teach dumbbutt mericans maths and sciences
stuff.

3. Something new called "electronic data processing" dis-locates/dis-respects
clerks a la LBJ, IRT, LSD, hair-hair-hair-hair.

4. Handheld palm gadgets thing-a-majigs containing everything in the natural
and orthodox pharma medical world on dang dots, and supply orthodox &
alternative diagnoses of patients if the regressive doctors union allow it.

5. Medicare and Medicaid will democratically-socialistically continue
prolonging the lives of the masses instead of merely the wealthy asses.

6. Courts and prisons full of dope cases
continue de-publicizing.

7. Professors at universities and colleges obsoleted by the internet--no need
for
boring verbs and teaching assistant
sticklers marking mickey mouse Harbrace citations
on papers--do it by machines.



InsuranceBroker

unread,
Apr 8, 2002, 10:37:36 AM4/8/02
to
>Subject: Re: Fight The H-1B Fiasco!
>From: "machismo64" machi...@yahoo.com
>Date: 4/8/2002 9:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <Hghs8.5717$Ck3.113...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com>
>

>Then again, H1B and such are effective ways for America to get smart and
>plucky people from other countries to come here. While here, those folks
>expand the tax base and add more skill and intelligence to the U.S. work

>force which aids our international competitiveness. Some of them stay and
>permanently add their skills to our melting pot.

First off the tax roll do not expand. They actually get smaller. The foreigner
almost 100 percent of the time replaces an American who has been fired to make
room for the cheaper foreign worker.
We already have 50 million more people since the end of WWII. Surely you do
not think that we need more?

Every company that embrace the h1-b to lower cost is doing very badly a few
years later. That would say that the "more skill and intelligence" does not
lead to strong companies.

>Others who go home with
>generally good experiences

And code of the companies they worked for. They help set up foreign competition
that put americans out of work

>native countries and remember us fondly when making policy.

It would appear that most of them do not remember us fondly. Would you like
someone who exploited you and in many cases made a promise of a better land
then shipped you back to the third world?

InsuranceBroker

unread,
Apr 8, 2002, 10:40:43 AM4/8/02
to
>Subject: Re: Fight The H-1B Fiasco!
>From: robt...@aol.comnospam (RobtCohen)
>Date: 4/8/2002 10:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20020408101423...@mb-ml.aol.com>

>Re: Nurse--and teacher--shortage phenomena, and other trends in the
>twenty-first century

>Women no longer are restricted to being (mostly) the secretaries, clerks,
>teachers and nurses.

Are you saying that if nursing was only filled because woman were restricted?

Are you saying the woman are too stupid to go into nursing today?

Mike Coburn

unread,
Apr 8, 2002, 1:20:05 PM4/8/02
to
machismo64 wrote:
>
> Then again, H1B and such are effective ways for America to get smart and
> plucky people from other countries to come here.

The standard lie.

While here, those folks
> expand the tax base and add more skill and intelligence to the U.S. work
> force which aids our international competitiveness.

ONE MO TIME!!!!!!!

The United States of America is not here as YOUR TEAM to win the
big game. We have no need to involve ourselves in "international
competitiveness" to the detriment of our own people. And if you
want to "add more skill and intelligence to the U.S. work force"
then try paying higher WAGES and rewarding fat ass bondholders,
and landowners a little less, and you would be quite amazed at
how fast the people of the nation would become more "skilled
and intelligent". Why is it that we don't seem to have this
problem with corporate officers and CEO's? Those we seem to have
in insufficient numbers enough to justify HUGE salaries. Yet
we don't seem to be importing any less expensive models.

Some of them stay and
> permanently add their skills to our melting pot. Others who go home with
> generally good experiences are good PR for us in places where the media
> might be state controlled and heavily slanted against this country. These
> talented people might even one day rise to leadership positions in their
> native countries and remember us fondly when making policy.

Paranoia strikes me....
Into your heart it will creep.
Starts when you're always afraid
(Something about life),
They will come and take it away.

I think it's time to stop, children
What's that sound
Everbody look what's goin down

The previous "admitted" trash is a 60's protest song about the Vietnam
war. The position was that we had no reason to be killing our own
people over the crap in Vietnam. I see the current H1B garbage in
precisely the same light. The American people do not benefit from
H1B visas. Only the current wealthy and powerful stand to benefit
from this kind of activity and they benefit only by increasing the
disparity in wealth between them and the rest of the society. They
prevent the development of internal expertise and knowledge by
degrading the reward to such development and then use that lack of
internal expertise to justify more of the same -- a self fulfilling
prophecy. We are engaged in a war. But it is not a war against
an outside aggressor, not a war against an external terrorist. We
are engaged in a currently bloodless civil war. A war in which
aristocracy threatens the democratic republic of the United States
and uses false economics such as the excuses for H1B to achieve its
ends.

http://GreaterVoice.org



> > H-1B is a classic example which permits businesses to employee cheep
> foreign
> > labor at the expense of citizens. Our overly generous immigration quotas
> > and almost total lack of control of entry of illegal aliens is to permit
> > business to hire cheap labor at the expense of the general public.
> > --
> > Bill Mech

--

machismo64

unread,
Apr 8, 2002, 2:24:51 PM4/8/02
to

"Mike Coburn" <mik...@gte.net> wrote in message
news:3CB1D095...@gte.net...

> machismo64 wrote:
> >
> > Then again, H1B and such are effective ways for America to get smart and
> > plucky people from other countries to come here.
>
> The standard lie.
>

How so? Are you saying that the people who come are not aided by HiB or
that they are not plucky? Clearly, you find the importation of foreign
labor undesirable, but that does not make my statement a lie--standard or
otherwise.


> While here, those folks
> > expand the tax base and add more skill and intelligence to the U.S. work
> > force which aids our international competitiveness.
>
> ONE MO TIME!!!!!!!
>
> The United States of America is not here as YOUR TEAM to win the
> big game.

Then why do you make such a big deal about "our own people" if we are not a
team or collective unit of some sort? Clearly, you make a distinction
between "us and them." Clearly, your way of "us" winning the big game is to
keep "them" out.

We have no need to involve ourselves in "international
> competitiveness" to the detriment of our own people.

We do need to compete internationally. We produce products for sale
overseas which creates jobs here. If we were to protect our markets, other
nations would retaliate, prices would go up, demand would fall, and overall
prosperity would suffer to the "detriment of our own people." In addition,
as we saw with cars in the 70s, protected industries eventually start making
shoddy products because the customer can't choose an import. I would prefer
our people to make the finest quality in the world and deal with the
dislocations that international competitiveness involves rather than rely on
my government to protect my job. It seems unmanly to hide behind the skirts
of government in such a way.


And if you
> want to "add more skill and intelligence to the U.S. work force"
> then try paying higher WAGES and rewarding fat ass bondholders,
> and landowners a little less, and you would be quite amazed at
> how fast the people of the nation would become more "skilled
> and intelligent".

High wages do attract people to jobs that offer them--I'll make your
argument for you--which eventually reduces that wage because the new workers
compete for the job. In addition, businesses can and do reduce their labor
costs by hiring people from outside our country. They also use their
political influence to pass legislation such as H1B which keeps our people
from making as high a salary than they otherwise would.

I argue that this is not a bad thing. The lower labor cost allows more
business to create more products and thus more jobs. People with these jobs
buy things and pay taxes. I would agree that the individual who makes only
70k as an Oracle DBA instead of 125k is not better off, but the country and
economy at large is. I also don't buy into the whole notion that it is
somehow the government's job to artificially inflate someone's wage by
closing the labor market. Eventually, you get the same thing with your
workers that you did with the cars--inferiority.

"Fat ass bond holders" merely lend money to businesses (so they can pay
salaries and such) and want a repayment of their principal and some
interest. Do you criticize the "fat ass mortgage companies" as well because
they lend people enough money to live in a house right now rather than
waiting 30 years for it? Why would anyone lend anyone else money as a
business if they did not stand to gain as a result? Would our economy not
be much worse if there was little profit in lending?

Also, what is the beef with owning land?


Why is it that we don't seem to have this
> problem with corporate officers and CEO's? Those we seem to have
> in insufficient numbers enough to justify HUGE salaries. Yet
> we don't seem to be importing any less expensive models.


CEO pay is out of hand, but it is the job of the Board of Directors of each
company to figure out what to offer. Nobody is holding a gun to their heads
telling them to pay so much. All the shareholders need to do is throw the
bastards out if they fail to do their jobs. If they pay the CEO too much,
their profits go down. I will trust the shareholders enlightened
self-interest to determine whether to back the board or not. In any event,
if it is any consolation, CEOs have to compete with foreigners as well. An
Aussie runs Phillip Morris for example.


>
> Some of them stay and
> > permanently add their skills to our melting pot. Others who go home
with
> > generally good experiences are good PR for us in places where the media
> > might be state controlled and heavily slanted against this country.
These
> > talented people might even one day rise to leadership positions in their
> > native countries and remember us fondly when making policy.

We are engaged in a war. But it is not a war against


> an outside aggressor, not a war against an external terrorist. We
> are engaged in a currently bloodless civil war. A war in which
> aristocracy threatens the democratic republic of the United States
> and uses false economics such as the excuses for H1B to achieve its
> ends.


Note that the great majority of the aristocracy that you speak of (I assume
you mean the wealthy) got that way because they worked hard and built
businesses that succeeded. Somehow, the tenor of your post indicates that
these people took something from you in order to get where they are or that
they owe you something. They didn't and they don't.


InsuranceBroker

unread,
Apr 8, 2002, 3:14:38 PM4/8/02
to
>Subject: Re: Fight The H-1B Fiasco!
>From: "machismo64" machi...@yahoo.com
>Date: 4/8/2002 2:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <Tfls8.5782$R71.115...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com>

>Then why do you make such a big deal about "our own people" if we are not a
>team or collective unit of some sort?

Well most of the h1-b displace an existing American worker. That worker does
not just disappear. You have to pay undemployment and other social costs.

>Clearly, you make a distinction
>between "us and them."

Yes I do. india has 46 percent of the guess workers but they are very
protection inclinded. India would not buy American military product just
recently.

>Clearly, your way of "us" winning the big game is to
>keep "them" out.

I am not sure that we win but we most certainly lose with the h1-b program.


>We produce products for sale
>overseas which creates jobs here.

Almost nothing in the class. The United States is the market.

>If we were to protect our markets, other
>nations would retaliate, prices would go up, demand would fall, and overall
>prosperity would suffer to the "detriment of our own people."

So with a 300 billion deficit who do you think a trade war would hurt?

>than rely on
>my government to protect my job

You miss one big point...the guess worker program is a goverment special law.

>It seems unmanly to hide behind the skirts
>of government in such a way.

Well that is nice way of looking at it. I hope you are ready to give up you
job to a college gradute in India who makes 2.50 an hour.


>High wages do attract people to jobs that offer them

Very true and that is why the low wages paid the guess workers cause the
americans to leave the industry.

>In addition, businesses can and do reduce their labor
>costs by hiring people from outside our country.

Yes business reduce their cost but you cost like school taxes go up. Social
cost like welfare go up. Business get the benefit of reduced wages and you get
the bill. The ceo will get a lot of money. Did you know that enron was
precentage wise one of the largest employers of guess workers. WHat happend to
them?

>I argue that this is not a bad thing. The lower labor cost allows more
>business to create more products and thus more jobs.

Really then why is almost all the big employers of guess workers in the tank
presently?


>People with these jobs
>buy things and pay taxes

True since the companies fired their american workers they do not have
customers. Do you think a guy in India making 2.50 an hour is going to buy a
Compact computer?

>I would agree that the individual who makes only
>70k as an Oracle DBA instead of 125k is not better off, but the country and
>economy at large is.

Nothing supports this view.


> I also don't buy into the whole notion that it is
>somehow the government's job to artificially inflate someone's wage by
>closing the labor market.

The government is not closing the job market. Your local congress man is
taking a bribe and passing special laws. DO you think India is so smart as to
deserve 46 percent of all the guess workers slots? I happen to understand that
India is politically corrupt and know how to buy our corrupt congressmen.


>Eventually, you get the same thing with your
>workers that you did with the cars--inferiority.

Well the United States got to the moon with our infrerior workers. Just what
have we done with your cheap workers?

Mike Coburn

unread,
Apr 8, 2002, 4:12:43 PM4/8/02
to
machismo64 wrote:
>
> "Mike Coburn" <mik...@gte.net> wrote in message
> news:3CB1D095...@gte.net...
> > machismo64 wrote:
> > >
> > > Then again, H1B and such are effective ways for America to get smart and
> > > plucky people from other countries to come here.
> >
> > The standard lie.
> >
>
> How so? Are you saying that the people who come are not aided by HiB or
> that they are not plucky? Clearly, you find the importation of foreign
> labor undesirable, but that does not make my statement a lie--standard or
> otherwise.

You are correct! I was totally out of line on that charge! The
"lie" is in the insinuation that we have _need_ of such individuals
that we cannot find or "create" internally. But, again:
I was out of line in saying that your actual statement was a lie.

> > While here, those folks
> > > expand the tax base and add more skill and intelligence to the U.S. work
> > > force which aids our international competitiveness.
> >
> > ONE MO TIME!!!!!!!
> >
> > The United States of America is not here as YOUR TEAM to win the
> > big game.
>
> Then why do you make such a big deal about "our own people" if we are not a
> team or collective unit of some sort? Clearly, you make a distinction
> between "us and them." Clearly, your way of "us" winning the big game is to
> keep "them" out.

Your approach to this "team" effort creates a wider gulf between the
"captains of industry" and the crew of the vessel and ultimately
destroys the "team" because of lack of education. It isn't about
near term money and the focus is not on the United States of
America emerging as the "dominant power" on the planet. The proper
focus is the development of the vast majority of the people of OUR
nation and OUR ability to see to OUR needs so that WE can have the
excess capacity to THEN consider others. We cannot and should not
be attempting to help other nations economically without those
nations helping themselves through alterations in their cultural
norms. In almost every instance, the problems that other nations
face are based on cultural norms that exacerbate their resource
per capita problem. All we are doing is importing the problem
so as to increase the power of a few individuals at the top of
the food chain in BOTH nations.

> We have no need to involve ourselves in "international
> > competitiveness" to the detriment of our own people.
>
> We do need to compete internationally. We produce products for sale
> overseas which creates jobs here.

Why?

If we were to protect our markets, other
> nations would retaliate, prices would go up, demand would fall, and overall
> prosperity would suffer to the "detriment of our own people."

Why do we give a rat's ass about __*YOUR*__ profits from _selling_
American goods to people outside the tax jurisdiction? You think
that the American workers are supposed to kiss your royal butt
for a job?

In addition,
> as we saw with cars in the 70s, protected industries eventually start making
> shoddy products because the customer can't choose an import.

I will not tolerate an association of H1B with import tariffs. H1B
is in no way similar to trade restrictions on goods. If all the
companies want to move to India to do software development that
is OK with me. The Indian government will be responsible for
protecting their copyrights and we can save a lot of money by
downsizing our bloated government --- ESPECIALLY THE MILITARY.
We seem to have a serious "free rider" problem here.

I would prefer
> our people to make the finest quality in the world and deal with the
> dislocations that international competitiveness involves rather than rely on
> my government to protect my job. It seems unmanly to hide behind the skirts
> of government in such a way.

The "captains of industry" are hiding behind the monopoly privileges
being GIVEN to them by government. These privileges are funded by taxes
on wages. It is this __*gift*__ and the lack of National Catastrophic
Health Insurance in the United States that makes foreign labor
so attractive. Any way you cut it H1B is a tool to increase the
disparity of wealth in the USA and it will ultimately result in
a "fascist banana republic with no bananas". As a matter of fact
we are very close to that right now.



> And if you
> > want to "add more skill and intelligence to the U.S. work force"
> > then try paying higher WAGES and rewarding fat ass bondholders,
> > and landowners a little less, and you would be quite amazed at
> > how fast the people of the nation would become more "skilled
> > and intelligent".
>
> High wages do attract people to jobs that offer them--I'll make your
> argument for you--which eventually reduces that wage because the new workers
> compete for the job. In addition, businesses can and do reduce their labor
> costs by hiring people from outside our country. They also use their
> political influence to pass legislation such as H1B which keeps our people
> from making as high a salary than they otherwise would.

So far so good.

> I argue that this is not a bad thing. The lower labor cost allows more
> business to create more products and thus more jobs. People with these jobs
> buy things and pay taxes. I would agree that the individual who makes only
> 70k as an Oracle DBA instead of 125k is not better off, but the country and
> economy at large is. I also don't buy into the whole notion that it is
> somehow the government's job to artificially inflate someone's wage by
> closing the labor market. Eventually, you get the same thing with your
> workers that you did with the cars--inferiority.

The keys here are quite telling: The man claims that the lower cost
of labor "creates more jobs" as more _stuff_ is produced. We do not
see any description of the kind of job or the pay for such jobs. We
are working at these "created jobs" so that the "captains of industry"
can pay more Indians and Pakistanis to use up our natural resources
while fabricating and delivering lower cost products to those outside
the sovereignty and lining their pockets with the profits of such
activity.

"The people with these jobs buy things and pay taxes". Unfortunately,
the people he is referring to are Indian and Pakistanis as opposed
to Americans. The Americans don't have any money and are enticed to
borrow more and more and more, thus creating and extending the
indentured servitude so loved by the "captains of industry". He
then agrees that the people that got pissed on by the H1B deal
are NOT better off but insists that the "country" and the "economy"
are better off. I will reserve my discussion of this nebulous
"economy" for later, but the "country" being better off is exactly
the point I was making in the beginning. The notion that the big
wigs are to be mounted on their big white horses commanding the
free world at undue expense of the __*PRODUCTIVE*__ citizen of the
nation is, to me, loathsome and repugnant. Take your nationalistic
aristocratic trash somewhere else. And the "economy", sir, is
measured in the opportunity that the average citizen has to better
his own well being. You don't "improve" the economy by pissing
all over the __PRODUCTIVE__ people for the sake of enriching the
aristocracy.

And __*inferiority*__ is being bred by H1B every day of the week.
Every time wages fall and income from ownership rises we send
a clear message to every citizen of our nation that science and
engineering and real knowledge and productive ability is
worthless and that accounting, layering, and MBA'ing are the
only way to become financially sound.

> "Fat ass bond holders" merely lend money to businesses (so they can pay
> salaries and such) and want a repayment of their principal and some
> interest. Do you criticize the "fat ass mortgage companies" as well because
> they lend people enough money to live in a house right now rather than
> waiting 30 years for it? Why would anyone lend anyone else money as a
> business if they did not stand to gain as a result? Would our economy not
> be much worse if there was little profit in lending?

Nice dodge... I refer to government backed bonds. Our economy
would be much better off if Government Guaranteed interest was
not keeping interest rates so high. The reward to _real_ capital
is interest and that reward is based on risk and on the increase
in productivity created by _real_ capital (plant and machinery
mostly buy also infrastructure and education). Our current
banking and tax systems reward people that have money, simply
because the "have money".

> Also, what is the beef with owning land?

Ownership income derives from true investment and _real_
capital development and that income is then called "interest"
in the classical sense -- I realize that interest is what
we pay on our credit cards but that is not the were all and
be all of "interest". But income from ownership can also
arise from pure rent or monopoly power and the force of
government. As I have said many times, limited monopoly
power is essential to capitalism and a very good thing.
But government backed bonds and land ownership are
perpetual grants of privilege secured by the power of
government without risk or continuing participation from
the owner. H1B serves this form of monopoly privilege.

> Why is it that we don't seem to have this
> > problem with corporate officers and CEO's? Those we seem to have
> > in insufficient numbers enough to justify HUGE salaries. Yet
> > we don't seem to be importing any less expensive models.
>
> CEO pay is out of hand, but it is the job of the Board of Directors of each
> company to figure out what to offer. Nobody is holding a gun to their heads
> telling them to pay so much. All the shareholders need to do is throw the
> bastards out if they fail to do their jobs. If they pay the CEO too much,
> their profits go down. I will trust the shareholders enlightened
> self-interest to determine whether to back the board or not. In any event,
> if it is any consolation, CEOs have to compete with foreigners as well. An
> Aussie runs Phillip Morris for example.

The H1B legislation is an example of how CEO's "compete". They
do it by bribing congress and creating ever bigger monopolies
that DECREASE the distribution, and division of labor.
Them that are good at it are paid substantial amounts.

> >
> > Some of them stay and
> > > permanently add their skills to our melting pot. Others who go home
> with
> > > generally good experiences are good PR for us in places where the media
> > > might be state controlled and heavily slanted against this country.
> These
> > > talented people might even one day rise to leadership positions in their
> > > native countries and remember us fondly when making policy.
>
> We are engaged in a war. But it is not a war against
> > an outside aggressor, not a war against an external terrorist. We
> > are engaged in a currently bloodless civil war. A war in which
> > aristocracy threatens the democratic republic of the United States
> > and uses false economics such as the excuses for H1B to achieve its
> > ends.
>
> Note that the great majority of the aristocracy that you speak of (I assume
> you mean the wealthy) got that way because they worked hard and built
> businesses that succeeded. Somehow, the tenor of your post indicates that
> these people took something from you in order to get where they are or that
> they owe you something. They didn't and they don't.

It is not a question of these people _oweing_ me or the vast
middle class anything at all. It is question of the opposite.
Why do you think that the American middle class "owes" these
people something other than the amount they have earned? I
recognize that they may have produced to attain their wealth.
I can understand that I, and the rest of the middle class
do not hold any kind of IOU against such individuals and that
they are entitled to a certain "command of labor" because of
their wealth. I don't even attempt to debate as to whether
they earned it or stole it. The issue is one of: Why do
you think that WE owe them _more_ than they have earned?
Why do you think that H1B should be used against the middle
class to further enrich these wealth holders at the expense
of the vast majority?

Keynes

unread,
Apr 8, 2002, 5:39:08 PM4/8/02
to

Is America a business or a country?
If we don't support American workers, but instead replace them
with cheaper foreign labor, what good does this do America as a
country, rather than as a business? The whole idea of globalization
has looted the USA of our industrial base. "Get an education, dude.
We're a 'service' 'information' economy now." Yeah right.
The only jobs that one can get and keep are flipping burgers
and pumping gas, and even those jobs are going to recent
immigrants. What in the hell is left for Americans who are
not the managers of this rape of American labor?
Good business is NOT good for America.
What makes you think it is?

"If at first you don't succeed, try, try and blame Bill Clinton."
( CONs - men at work greasing the "Axles of Evil". )

dapra

unread,
Apr 8, 2002, 9:29:48 PM4/8/02
to

Keynes wrote:
>
> Is America a business or a country?

Good, fundamental question!
I think, it is a business, masquerading as a county.

dapra

Lance Ringquist

unread,
Apr 8, 2002, 11:40:52 PM4/8/02
to
cjs,
my wife is in the nursing field, she works side by side with temps
whose agencies charge almost double what she makes.
it makes ne sense, but that is the way its done here like all other
free market solutions.
where she works they cannot hold on to the full timers, yet the same
temps who are paid more keep returning everyday.