Why Bush whould/will burn for the delay in florida

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Dave Martin

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Aug 31, 1992, 9:48:00 PM8/31/92
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In article <18...@celia.UUCP>, celia!st...@usc.edu (Steve Tyree) writes...
} The main problem here is that our great nationalized weather service stated
}24 hours before the eye hit florida that the storm appeared to be weakening.
}Just a few hours before it hit florida they said that it appeared to be gain-
}ing strength again. Later using hind site the weather men said that the Islands
}to the east of florida slightly weakened the storm and when the eye got over
}the gulf stream it strengthened dramatically. Everyone was surprised by the
}damage. The democrates must be panicking if they feel the need to use natural
}disasters politically...

Odd -- last week the night before Andrew went ashore in Louisiana, I was
combing the Internet for back position data for the storm. I located it and
went through all the weather service reports. I read all the prediction and
modeling info, and the discussion comments. While I don't have the files here
at home, I am certain that the discussion as Andrew approached Florida did
state that the storm appeared to be weakening BUT that it was expected to
strengthen once it hit the gulf stream. This was mentioned at the same time
as the weakening was (~24 hours before landfall in Florida, according to your
estimate), not just a few hours short of coming ashore.
People usually are surprised at the amount of damage from ANY major storm.

With all the argument over whether Bush could have legally sent troops to
Florida, and the claims that he was sitting by the phone waiting for the
call from Florida's Governor (any pictures?), nobody has pointed out how
simple it would have been for Bush to call Florida and say, "It looks as
though you have a tough situation on your hands. Could you use some help
down there? I've got some troops ready to roll if you want them."
As far as I have heard, Bush did not make any such offer. Bush has means
for getting reports (don't know if he trusts the TV :) and could have
decided that the people of Florida were in serious need and made that call
to the Governor.
It is less important how "prepared" Bush was, or how concerned, or how
long he sat up at night waiting for that phone to ring -- the fact that
he didn't take the initiative in a domestic disaster is very telling,
particularly if you compare his initiative in foreign wars. You can be
sure he wasn't just sitting by the phone waiting for Saddam to call.
And you can be certain that the people of Florida and Louisiana will
take this into account come November.

- -
- Dave Martin - Geochemical & Environmental Research Group, Texas A&M -
- DAVE@GERGA[GERGO,GERGI].TAMU.EDU - BRO...@TAMVXOCN.BITNET - AOL:DBM -
- -

alex

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Aug 31, 1992, 12:30:23 PM8/31/92
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I was totally amazed that there was a delay in getting federal aid to
florida, and it's convinced me that GHWB is flat out incompetant.
Here's what I figured would happen:

Hurricane Andrew is on its way to florida. GHWB makes sure that
the pentagon is ready to act on a moments notice.

Andrew hits. Florida is devistated. GHWB interrupts his campaign
and flies to the disaster area immediately, gathering damage info
as it comes in. Arriving in florida, GHWB shows massive concern
for the suffering, and promises immediate federal troops to
help out.

As soon as the damage reports are coherent, GHWB is on the phone
to the pentagon, dictating orders. Responsibility is delegated,
and troops begin to trickle in on monday night, in time for the
11pm news, if possible.

GHWB circles through on wednesday, making sure that everything is
okey-dokey, shopwing his concern, and leaving his phone number in
case they need more help.

GHWB casually mentions his concern for florida at a few news
conferences, and sucessfully demonstrates to the american people
that he is "The Domestic President (TM)".

I was amazied that this didn't happen. GHWBs strongest liability is that
he is perceived as being uncaring about domestic issues. The disaster
was a made for TV oppertunity to get scads of great publicity on his most
problematic issue. If GHWB, a career politition, is so out of touch that
he can't grasp this, he diserves to be roasted on an open fire.

This gaff could cost the GOP florida, a major player with many electorial
votes, and GHWB has noone to blame but himself.

--
Alex Crain::UMBC Academic Computing Services
The feminist agenda is a socialist, anti-family political movement that
encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice
witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians. - Pat Robertson 1992

Ted Kalivoda

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Aug 31, 1992, 1:15:00 PM8/31/92
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In article <1992Aug31.1...@umbc3.umbc.edu> al...@engr3.umbc.edu (alex) writes:
>I was totally amazed that there was a delay in getting federal aid to
>florida, and it's convinced me that GHWB is flat out incompetant.
>Here's what I figured would happen:
>
> Hurricane Andrew is on its way to florida. GHWB makes sure that
> the pentagon is ready to act on a moments notice.
>
> Andrew hits. Florida is devistated. GHWB interrupts his campaign
> and flies to the disaster area immediately, gathering damage info
> as it comes in. Arriving in florida, GHWB shows massive concern
> for the suffering, and promises immediate federal troops to
> help out.

This is exactly what was planned, but we must be aware that some politics
was going on with the governor of florida (who just happens to be a
democrat) that prevented Bush from sending the troops in. The media did not
point this out, although Mona Charin pointed it out Saturday night on the
Capital Gang. What prevented Bush from sending the troops? The governor
of a state must request troops for them to be sent, and, unfortunately for
Floridians, the governor did not request them until 3 or 4 days after the
Hurricane hit.

by the way, the state did ask for national guard unit from the state of
florida to help, which they did promptly.

======================================================
Teddy Kalivoda ------------> te...@athena.cs.uga.edu
University of GA Computing & Network Services
Inst.of Higher Education
=====================================================
"The sleep of reason gives rise to monsters"
(Goya, Caprichos)

Ted Kalivoda

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Aug 31, 1992, 1:19:52 PM8/31/92
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>I was totally amazed that there was a delay in getting federal aid to
>florida, and it's convinced me that GHWB is flat out incompetant.
>Here's what I figured would happen:
>
> Hurricane Andrew is on its way to florida. GHWB makes sure that
> the pentagon is ready to act on a moments notice.
>
> Andrew hits. Florida is devistated. GHWB interrupts his campaign
> and flies to the disaster area immediately, gathering damage info
> as it comes in. Arriving in florida, GHWB shows massive concern
> for the suffering, and promises immediate federal troops to
> help out.

This is exactly what was planned, but we must be aware that some politics

alex

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Aug 31, 1992, 2:49:14 PM8/31/92
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In article <1992Aug31....@athena.cs.uga.edu>, te...@athena.cs.uga.edu (Ted Kalivoda) writes:

[a better scenerio from GHWB's standpoint, deleted]

|> This is exactly what was planned, but we must be aware that some politics
|> was going on with the governor of florida (who just happens to be a
|> democrat) that prevented Bush from sending the troops in.

I want to go on record as saying that I do not believe that the
Governor of florida deliberately let hundreds of thousands suffer in order
to assist Bill Clintons political campaign. I realize that you didn't say
it, but your notation suggests that you are implying it.

That said, I think it's irrelevent. If the president had violated
the law and sent the troops in early, the political remifications would
have been nil, vs. waiting for the governers call, which carries the
obvious consequences. The fact stands that bush had a great oppertunity
to show himself as sympathetic to domestic issues, and he blew it.

It doesn't matter whos fault it was, GHWB could have saved the
day, and declined. It's his loss.

Chip Switzer

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Aug 31, 1992, 2:02:12 PM8/31/92
to

al...@engr3.umbc.edu (alex) writes:

>I was totally amazed that there was a delay in getting federal aid to
>florida, and it's convinced me that GHWB is flat out incompetant.

I can't say that I'm suprised to see Bush's opponents jumping in on a
catastrophe to try to make him look bad. As Clinton said, "I don't
want to play pollitics with hurricanes, and I don't want to second
guess the president, BUT, I think this should be investigated..."

>Here's what I figured would happen:
> Hurricane Andrew is on its way to florida. GHWB makes sure that
> the pentagon is ready to act on a moments notice.

You are suffering from a misconception here. The Pentagon was created
to fight wars--not hurricanes. FEMA was set up to take care of
emergencies such as this. Bush did in fact make sure FEMA was on top
of the entire affair. They were there before the hurricane even hit.
The governor has his own National Guard units if any extraordinary
operations are necessary. You don't see any federal troops in Louisiana
do you? If they ever do go, it will be because the governor asked for
them--not becuase that is SOP for hurricane relief.

> Andrew hits. Florida is devistated. GHWB interrupts his campaign
> and flies to the disaster area immediately, gathering damage info
> as it comes in. Arriving in florida, GHWB shows massive concern
> for the suffering, and promises immediate federal troops to
> help out.

This he did. Once it was apparent that the emergency may be of record
proportions, he offered the military's help. And nothing is "immediate"
when it comes to logistics in the military. It can take a week to get a
fully functioning tent-city up and running, and that's once all the
supplies *get* there. Moving all that stuff is not a trivial operation.

> As soon as the damage reports are coherent, GHWB is on the phone
> to the pentagon, dictating orders. Responsibility is delegated,
> and troops begin to trickle in on monday night, in time for the
> 11pm news, if possible.

Wrong. He was waiting by the phone for the governor to ask for the
military's help, if he needed it--not a forgone conclusion at the time.

> GHWB circles through on wednesday, making sure that everything is
> okey-dokey, shopwing his concern, and leaving his phone number in
> case they need more help.

> GHWB casually mentions his concern for florida at a few news
> conferences, and sucessfully demonstrates to the american people
> that he is "The Domestic President (TM)".

>I was amazied that this didn't happen. GHWBs strongest liability is that
>he is perceived as being uncaring about domestic issues. The disaster
>was a made for TV oppertunity to get scads of great publicity on his most
>problematic issue. If GHWB, a career politition, is so out of touch that
>he can't grasp this, he diserves to be roasted on an open fire.

And the Democrats' strongest weapon is that Bush is perceived not to care
about domestic issues. Do you think they are going to play fair and
give him credit where it is due? I think not. With a little help from
the media they can keep this alleged bungle going for weeks. Lets have
a congressional investigation...

>This gaff could cost the GOP florida, a major player with many electorial
>votes, and GHWB has noone to blame but himself.

Or maybe Florida will appreciate the help and give Bush the credit he
deserves. After all, they don't have access to many TVs in the area.
--

Chip Switzer "A witty saying proves nothing."
jswi...@afit.af.mil -- Voltaire

alex

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Aug 31, 1992, 4:30:44 PM8/31/92
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In article <1992Aug31....@afit.af.mil> jswi...@afit.af.mil (Chip Switzer) writes:

>I can't say that I'm suprised to see Bush's opponents jumping in on a
>catastrophe to try to make him look bad.

Nobody has to try, Bush pulled it off all by himself.

I could care less about the people in florida - life sucks and then
all your stuff gets washed away. This is about winning an election, and
George Bush is not doing a very good job.

>This he did. Once it was apparent that the emergency may be of record
>proportions, he offered the military's help. And nothing is "immediate"
>when it comes to logistics in the military. It can take a week to get a
>fully functioning tent-city up and running, and that's once all the
>supplies *get* there. Moving all that stuff is not a trivial operation.

I was listening to a pentagon spokesman telling how they've been
tracking the storm for two weeks, and were ready to roll before the storm
even touched down. This is not an excuse.

>Wrong. He was waiting by the phone for the governor to ask for the
>military's help, if he needed it--not a forgone conclusion at the time.

From the perspective of winning the election, that was stupid.

>And the Democrats' strongest weapon is that Bush is perceived not to care
>about domestic issues. Do you think they are going to play fair and
>give him credit where it is due? I think not. With a little help from
>the media they can keep this alleged bungle going for weeks. Lets have
>a congressional investigation...

You got it - but thats the way the game is played. Dukakis didn't
like those rules either, and look what happened to him. Maybe the residents
of florida will see it your way, but I wouldn't bank on it. Bush set himself
up to get fried on this one.

Steve Tyree

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Aug 31, 1992, 4:00:00 PM8/31/92
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>I was totally amazed that there was a delay in getting federal aid to
>florida, and it's convinced me that GHWB is flat out incompetant.
>Here's what I figured would happen:
>
> Hurricane Andrew is on its way to florida. GHWB makes sure that
> the pentagon is ready to act on a moments notice.

The main problem here is that our great nationalized weather service stated


24 hours before the eye hit florida that the storm appeared to be weakening.
Just a few hours before it hit florida they said that it appeared to be gain-
ing strength again. Later using hind site the weather men said that the Islands
to the east of florida slightly weakened the storm and when the eye got over
the gulf stream it strengthened dramatically. Everyone was surprised by the
damage. The democrates must be panicking if they feel the need to use natural
disasters politically...

Steve Tyree - These opinions are mine and mine alone.

Matthew J. Bernhardt

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Aug 31, 1992, 5:40:14 PM8/31/92
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al...@engr3.umbc.edu (alex) writes:

> That said, I think it's irrelevent. If the president had violated

^^^^^^^^


>the law and sent the troops in early, the political remifications would

^^^^^^^


>have been nil, vs. waiting for the governers call, which carries the
>obvious consequences. The fact stands that bush had a great oppertunity
>to show himself as sympathetic to domestic issues, and he blew it.

If the president had violated the law, impeachment proceedings would
be underway in the House right this very minute for "high crimes and mis-
demeanors", as prescribed in the U.S. Constitution. The president takes office
with an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States. I think you
underestimate the "political ramifications" of impeachment.
--
Matt Bernhardt
University of Buffalo THIS SPACE FOR RENT.
m...@acsu.buffalo.edu

Clay Luther

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Aug 31, 1992, 5:57:20 PM8/31/92
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l...@engr3.umbc.edu (alex) writes:


> That said, I think it's irrelevent. If the president had violated
>the law and sent the troops in early, the political remifications would
>have been nil, vs. waiting for the governers call, which carries the
>obvious consequences. The fact stands that bush had a great oppertunity
>to show himself as sympathetic to domestic issues, and he blew it.


If Mr. Bush had done this, he would have been in deeper shit. Every anti-
Bush critter would crawl out from the woodwork and proclaim Bush's total
disregard for states rights and federal law.

No, Andrew turned out to be a lose-lose proposition for Bush. They gambled
that the damage would not be significant, that it could be handled
"quietly" by the local militias. It couldn't, and Bush will probably end up
paying the price. I also happen to think that the Florida governor will
also suffer.

--
Clay Luther
clu...@morticia.cnns.unt.edu

Bill Nolte

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Aug 31, 1992, 5:56:37 PM8/31/92
to
I hate to say this, well not really, but are you nuts?
The one issue the Constitution strives to maintain throughout is 'States'
Rights". If there could be a more fundamental violation of the constitution
than sending troops unasked for into a State, I don't know what it is. You
want to get mad and blame somebody, which it seems you always do, blame the
governor for his slow reaction. You say he wasn't playing politics with
lives (but of course Bush was) and YOUR tone implies that he isn't an
incompetent (but once again, Bush is), but he knew the rules. Yes, the
pentagon was tracking Andrew for a long time (even though our weather
services constantly told us Andrew would be no problem even if it did
make hurricane status), but he had access to that information as well.
Seems to me that once again the double standards of the left are oozing
yet again.

> --
> Alex Crain::UMBC Academic Computing Services
> The feminist agenda is a socialist, anti-family political movement that
> encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice
> witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians. - Pat Robertson 1992

Thank God someone said it, even if it was Pat Robertson.

Bill Nolte

alex

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Aug 31, 1992, 8:39:34 PM8/31/92
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In article <cluther.715298240@morticia> clu...@morticia.cnns.unt.edu (Clay Luther) writes:

[bush should have sent troops in early, deleted]

>If Mr. Bush had done this, he would have been in deeper shit. Every anti-
>Bush critter would crawl out from the woodwork and proclaim Bush's total
>disregard for states rights and federal law.

I don't think so. It would be hard to make the charges stick, since
Bush would be acting soley for the good of the people, as opposed to personal
or political gain. When he held a press conferance a week later and said,
"Yes, I made a mistake, but I was so concerned that I was overwelmed with
passion for the suffering, and decided to forsake protocol in this one case."
Ronald Reagan could have made that fly without cue card, and so could bush
if he once ounce of political sense.

alex

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Aug 31, 1992, 8:47:32 PM8/31/92
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In article <1992Aug31.2...@news.uiowa.edu> bno...@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Bill Nolte) writes:
>I hate to say this, well not really, but are you nuts?

No, just really, really cynical. Real presidents can say "fuck
states rights" and get away with it.

> You
>want to get mad and blame somebody, which it seems you always do, blame the
>governor for his slow reaction. You say he wasn't playing politics with
>lives (but of course Bush was) and YOUR tone implies that he isn't an
>incompetent (but once again, Bush is), but he knew the rules.

If the governer goes down for this, it's his own fault. If it were me,
I'd be doing some serious ass covering right about now, and it shouldn't be
too hard to confuse things and blame it all on bush. As for playing politics,
I blame bush for *not* playing politics when he had the chance. Politics is
Bushs job, and he stinks at it.

>Seems to me that once again the double standards of the left are oozing
>yet again.

Nahh, you just can't see past your own ideology. I never said that Bush
was to blame, I think I even said that he isn't responsible for what happened.
What I did say is that Bush did a disservice to his own campaign, and for that
he diserves whatever he gets. Never mistake me for someone who actually gives
a shit.

Tom Perigrin

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Sep 1, 1992, 12:18:45 AM9/1/92
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In article <1992Sep1.0...@umbc3.umbc.edu> al...@engr3.umbc.edu (alex) writes:
>In article <cluther.715298240@morticia> clu...@morticia.cnns.unt.edu (Clay Luther) writes:
>
> [bush should have sent troops in early, deleted]
>
>>If Mr. Bush had done this, he would have been in deeper shit.

Bush COULD have had it both ways; he could have been on the air during the
height of the storm and announced; "Elements of the 103 Airborn (etc) have
been put on alert, and are poised waiting for the second the Governor asks
for them."

He could have repeasted that daily, putting 100% of the blame on the gov..


So why did Bush wait? Well, heck, anybody knows that the plight of the
homeless is only a liberal news media ploy, and that the homeless
are really responsible for thier own problems.

O.P.P

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Sep 1, 1992, 11:18:54 AM9/1/92
to
Dave Martin writes.....

With all the argument over whether Bush could have legally sent troops to
Florida, and the claims that he was sitting by the phone waiting for the
call from Florida's Governor (any pictures?), nobody has pointed out how
simple it would have been for Bush to call Florida and say, "It looks as
though you have a tough situation on your hands. Could you use some help
down there? I've got some troops ready to roll if you want them."
As far as I have heard, Bush did not make any such offer. Bush has means

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


for getting reports (don't know if he trusts the TV :) and could have

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


decided that the people of Florida were in serious need and made that call
to the Governor.


I agree. Surly the former head of the CIA could pull some strings and
get some first hand "intelligence" and "damage estimates" on a place
as far away as south Florida. What puzzles me is that his campaign
managers were astute enough to have George B. fly in right after the
Hurricane, why the troops didn't follow is indeed puzzling....
(And don't bring up legal mumbo jumbo on why he couldn't send the troops,
legal precedent was found which enabled us to invade another country
and bring a certain person back for trial, legal (or moral) precedent
could have been found to send Food and water)

Of course this is the Liberal Media's fault. What I will find amusing is
that if George Bush fails in his re-election bid, conservatives will blame
the Liberal Media, just like they derided Democrats for blaming the
Willie Horton ads.

O.P.P.

Caroline E. Bryan

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Sep 1, 1992, 1:00:03 PM9/1/92
to
>I was totally amazed that there was a delay in getting federal aid to
>florida, and it's convinced me that GHWB is flat out incompetant.
>Here's what I figured would happen: ...
>
>I was amazed that this didn't happen. GHWBs strongest liability is that

>he is perceived as being uncaring about domestic issues. The disaster
>was a made for TV oppertunity to get scads of great publicity on his most
>problematic issue. If GHWB, a career politition, is so out of touch that
>he can't grasp this, he diserves to be roasted on an open fire.
>
>This gaff could cost the GOP florida, a major player with many electorial
>votes, and GHWB has noone to blame but himself.

And he certainly has someone to thank that it wasn't worse. You may recall
that his first reaction to the news in Florida was to head for Kennebunkport,
and he had to be talked out of it.


Carrie c...@rechenau.unify.com x6244 ----------------------------+
| ... one of those cliches that are always lying in wait to fill a vacuum in |
| the brain. - H.W. Fowler |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Steve Tyree

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Sep 1, 1992, 1:47:09 PM9/1/92
to
In article <31AUG199...@gergo.tamu.edu> da...@gergo.tamu.edu (Dave Martin) writes:
->Odd -- last week the night before Andrew went ashore in Louisiana, I was
->combing the Internet for back position data for the storm. I located it and
->went through all the weather service reports. I read all the prediction and
->modeling info, and the discussion comments. While I don't have the files here
->at home, I am certain that the discussion as Andrew approached Florida did
->state that the storm appeared to be weakening BUT that it was expected to
->strengthen once it hit the gulf stream. This was mentioned at the same time
->as the weakening was (~24 hours before landfall in Florida, according to your
->estimate), not just a few hours short of coming ashore.

I was just using memory of CNN hourly news reports on this one. Didnt think I
was even that accurate. What the weather service said was that the storm had
weakened and that it COULD increase again when it got in the vicinity of the
shoreline as sometimes occurs during hurricaines. I dont recall anyone actually
mentioning that the warm water from the gulf stream could and probably would
dramatically increase the magnitude of the storm. Please provide a quote with
a time and date stamp if you could. One where someone says that it probably
will increase in magnitude. Note - Andrew weakened just before moving ashore
in Louisiana. Dosent the gulf have very warm water ? Why did it weaken when
moving ashore in Louisiana and strengthen when moving ashore in Florida ?
Why could no one even predict this ? Are these the same people who predict
global warming ?

fzc...@othello.ucdavis.edu

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Sep 2, 1992, 1:00:26 AM9/2/92
to
I guess this points out the fact that Bush is a reactive
President. I doubt that he's done something to prevent a situation
in his life. The only time that I can recall him setting a policy
that wasn't a _reaction_ to an event is his giving agricultural
credits to the Iraqis.:-)

-MeatHead

Duke P. Hong

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Sep 2, 1992, 2:41:06 PM9/2/92
to
In article <1992Aug31....@athena.cs.uga.edu> te...@athena.cs.uga.edu (Ted Kalivoda) writes:
>In article <1992Aug31.1...@umbc3.umbc.edu> al...@engr3.umbc.edu (alex) writes:
>>I was totally amazed that there was a delay in getting federal aid to
>>florida, and it's convinced me that GHWB is flat out incompetant.
>>Here's what I figured would happen:
>>
>> Hurricane Andrew is on its way to florida. GHWB makes sure that
>> the pentagon is ready to act on a moments notice.
>>
>> Andrew hits. Florida is devistated. GHWB interrupts his campaign
>> and flies to the disaster area immediately, gathering damage info
>> as it comes in. Arriving in florida, GHWB shows massive concern
>> for the suffering, and promises immediate federal troops to
>> help out.
>
>This is exactly what was planned, but we must be aware that some politics
>was going on with the governor of florida (who just happens to be a
>democrat) that prevented Bush from sending the troops in. The media did not
>point this out, although Mona Charin pointed it out Saturday night on the
>Capital Gang.

Actually, I heard this from several sources. So much for the "liberal media".

>What prevented Bush from sending the troops? The governor
>of a state must request troops for them to be sent, and, unfortunately for
>Floridians, the governor did not request them until 3 or 4 days after the
>Hurricane hit.
>

I don't know about this. I think it is customary, not necessary, for
the governor to request federal troops.

>by the way, the state did ask for national guard unit from the state of
>florida to help, which they did promptly.
>
>======================================================
> Teddy Kalivoda ------------> te...@athena.cs.uga.edu
> University of GA Computing & Network Services
> Inst.of Higher Education
>=====================================================

--
Duke P. Hong
du...@valentine.uci.edu

Mike Schwartz

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Sep 2, 1992, 12:53:25 PM9/2/92
to
> In article <cluther.715298240@morticia> clu...@morticia.cnns.unt.edu (Clay Luther) writes:
>
> [bush should have sent troops in early, deleted]
>
> >If Mr. Bush had done this, he would have been in deeper shit. Every anti-
> >Bush critter would crawl out from the woodwork and proclaim Bush's total
> >disregard for states rights and federal law.
>
> I don't think so. It would be hard to make the charges stick, since
> Bush would be acting soley for the good of the people, as opposed to personal
> or political gain. When he held a press conferance a week later and said,
> "Yes, I made a mistake, but I was so concerned that I was overwelmed with
> passion for the suffering, and decided to forsake protocol in this one case."
> Ronald Reagan could have made that fly without cue card, and so could bush
> if he once ounce of political sense.
>

Sorry, alex. But as you have demonstrated by your several posts on this
subject, Bush would be attacked for the most ridiculous of charges. Give
his enemies, such as yourself, a legitimate charge, and you'd keep your
mouth shut? I doubt it.

Alex, you couldn't be more wrong. But if your attitude is typical of liberals,
I guess the constitution is something to be spit upon.

"Berlin Wall Falls. 3 Border Guards Killed. Alex Crain blames George Bush."
-- me, with a little help from a friend.

>
> --
> Alex Crain::UMBC Academic Computing Services
> The feminist agenda is a socialist, anti-family political movement that
> encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice
> witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians. - Pat Robertson 1992

--
Amiga programmer of: GRn, MailMinder, Budokan, Beyond Dark Castle, Dark Castle
Sega Genesis programmer of: Dick Tracy and Marble Madness.
Mike Schwartz (ames!zorch!amiga0!mykes or my...@amiga0.sf-bay.org)
1124 Fremont Ave.
Los Altos, CA 94024

Mike Schwartz

unread,
Sep 2, 1992, 1:01:52 PM9/2/92
to
In article <31AUG199...@gergo.tamu.edu> da...@gergo.tamu.edu (Dave Martin) writes:
> With all the argument over whether Bush could have legally sent troops to
> Florida, and the claims that he was sitting by the phone waiting for the
> call from Florida's Governor (any pictures?), nobody has pointed out how
> simple it would have been for Bush to call Florida and say, "It looks as
> though you have a tough situation on your hands. Could you use some help
> down there? I've got some troops ready to roll if you want them."
> As far as I have heard, Bush did not make any such offer. Bush has means
> for getting reports (don't know if he trusts the TV :) and could have
> decided that the people of Florida were in serious need and made that call
> to the Governor.

Bush was there IN PERSON the day after. Do you doubt he offered all the
assistance he could muster? If he trusts TV so much, he wouldn't have
gone there, twice now in fact.

> It is less important how "prepared" Bush was, or how concerned, or how
> long he sat up at night waiting for that phone to ring -- the fact that
> he didn't take the initiative in a domestic disaster is very telling,
> particularly if you compare his initiative in foreign wars. You can be
> sure he wasn't just sitting by the phone waiting for Saddam to call.
> And you can be certain that the people of Florida and Louisiana will
> take this into account come November.
>

Foreign policy is what the president is there for. It explicitly says
so in the constutition. Don't people take civics classes in school
anymore? Sheesh. He did take the initiative - he's been there twice
and even made a RARE speech on TV.

Here's one for you: Where was Slick Willy? He didn't send the troops
from Arkansas to help, did he? Why aren't you not flaming him?
Same prinicple applies to Bush.

> - -
> - Dave Martin - Geochemical & Environmental Research Group, Texas A&M -
> - DAVE@GERGA[GERGO,GERGI].TAMU.EDU - BRO...@TAMVXOCN.BITNET - AOL:DBM -
> - -

--

Mike Schwartz

unread,
Sep 2, 1992, 11:41:01 PM9/2/92
to
In article <7iy...@Unify.Com> c...@dbrus.Unify.Com (Caroline E. Bryan) writes:
> In article <1992Aug31.1...@umbc3.umbc.edu> al...@engr3.umbc.edu (alex) writes:
> >I was totally amazed that there was a delay in getting federal aid to
> >florida, and it's convinced me that GHWB is flat out incompetant.
> >Here's what I figured would happen: ...
> >
> >I was amazed that this didn't happen. GHWBs strongest liability is that
> >he is perceived as being uncaring about domestic issues. The disaster
> >was a made for TV oppertunity to get scads of great publicity on his most
> >problematic issue. If GHWB, a career politition, is so out of touch that
> >he can't grasp this, he diserves to be roasted on an open fire.
> >
> >This gaff could cost the GOP florida, a major player with many electorial
> >votes, and GHWB has noone to blame but himself.
>
> And he certainly has someone to thank that it wasn't worse. You may recall
> that his first reaction to the news in Florida was to head for Kennebunkport,
> and he had to be talked out of it.
>

And a couple of years ago, Bush sent the troops into Maine where Kennebunkport is.
His OWN home there was seriously damaged... Yeah, right :)

>
> Carrie c...@rechenau.unify.com x6244 ----------------------------+
> | ... one of those cliches that are always lying in wait to fill a vacuum in |
> | the brain. - H.W. Fowler |
> +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

--

hulsey

unread,
Sep 3, 1992, 11:37:45 AM9/3/92
to
In article <mykes...@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG>

my...@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes:
>
>Sorry, alex. But as you have demonstrated by your several posts on this
>subject, Bush would be attacked for the most ridiculous of charges. Give
>his enemies, such as yourself, a legitimate charge, and you'd keep your
>mouth shut? I doubt it.

I think the charges by both sides have been pretty ridiculous. First, Bush
is not allowed to send in Federal troops unless specifically asked for by
the state. So first, the governor has to assess the damage. He doesn't
call for troops right away, because, after all, he would rather Florida be
self-reliant (one of those conservative mantras, dontcha know). Once he
finds out the extent of the damage, he calls for Federal assistance. The
logistics of the situation is just incredible. Frankly, I'm impressed
the army got there as soon as it did. I think Bush handled the situation
well. And so did the governor of Florida.

Well, that's my first, last, and only words on the subject. We return you
to your regularly scheduled flamewar.

>Alex, you couldn't be more wrong. But if your attitude is typical of
>liberals, I guess the constitution is something to be spit upon.

Liberals only spit on the Constitution when they aim at conservatives
and miss :-) Or they spit on the flag because they were aiming at the
conservative who had wrapped himself up in it :-) :-)

Seriously, I think both liberals and conservatives have done their fair
share of spitting. Liberals have invented laws in courts (Roe v. Wade).
Conservatives have ignored laws (Supplying aid to the Contras in spite
of laws forbidding it).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
hulsey%dbsun...@wupost.wustl.edu (Jim Hulsey) TBDBITL '84 ('85 Rose Bowl)
An Ohioan living in Misery (Missouri, same difference)

Watch what you say! Won't you sign up your name
They'll be calling you a radical So you can be their dependable
A liberal, fanatical criminal Respectable, presentable vegetable
-- Supertramp "The Logical Song"

Robert Lamoureux

unread,
Sep 3, 1992, 10:23:55 AM9/3/92
to
In article <mykes...@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG> my...@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes:
>In article <31AUG199...@gergo.tamu.edu> da...@gergo.tamu.edu (Dave Martin) writes:
>> With all the argument over whether Bush could have legally sent troops to
>> Florida, and the claims that he was sitting by the phone waiting for the
>> call from Florida's Governor (any pictures?), nobody has pointed out how
>> simple it would have been for Bush to call Florida and say, "It looks as
>> though you have a tough situation on your hands. Could you use some help
>> down there? I've got some troops ready to roll if you want them."
>> As far as I have heard, Bush did not make any such offer. Bush has means
>> for getting reports (don't know if he trusts the TV :) and could have
>> decided that the people of Florida were in serious need and made that call
>> to the Governor.
>
>Bush was there IN PERSON the day after. Do you doubt he offered all the
>assistance he could muster? If he trusts TV so much, he wouldn't have
>gone there, twice now in fact.
>

Ironic, isn't it, that Bush spends his days whining about government
bureaucracy and how much he wants to eliminate it, but he's perfectly
willing to hold out Federal aid for people who desperately need it
until protocol is observed, or "bureaucracy" is followed, in the
form of a letter from the Governor.

>> It is less important how "prepared" Bush was, or how concerned, or how
>> long he sat up at night waiting for that phone to ring -- the fact that
>> he didn't take the initiative in a domestic disaster is very telling,
>> particularly if you compare his initiative in foreign wars. You can be
>> sure he wasn't just sitting by the phone waiting for Saddam to call.
>> And you can be certain that the people of Florida and Louisiana will
>> take this into account come November.
>>
>
>Foreign policy is what the president is there for. It explicitly says
>so in the constutition. Don't people take civics classes in school
>anymore? Sheesh. He did take the initiative - he's been there twice
>and even made a RARE speech on TV.
>
>Here's one for you: Where was Slick Willy? He didn't send the troops
>from Arkansas to help, did he? Why aren't you not flaming him?
>Same prinicple applies to Bush.
>

Unless I'm very much mistaken (and I might be, but I don't think so),
Clinton has no authority to send National Guard troops from his own
state to other states.

>> - -
>> - Dave Martin - Geochemical & Environmental Research Group, Texas A&M -


Rob L.

Chip Switzer

unread,
Sep 3, 1992, 4:14:35 PM9/3/92
to
rl...@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Robert Lamoureux) writes:

>In article <mykes...@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG> my...@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes:
>Ironic, isn't it, that Bush spends his days whining about government
>bureaucracy and how much he wants to eliminate it, but he's perfectly
>willing to hold out Federal aid for people who desperately need it
>until protocol is observed, or "bureaucracy" is followed, in the
>form of a letter from the Governor.

Do you *really* think it went down like that, or are you just trying
to be as difficult as you can? Can any sane person believe that either
Bush or Chiles did any less than he could have? This bullshit about
either of them holding off while people suffered, just for political
one-upsmanship, is so completely assinine as to make me think these
posters have a screw loose.

Maybe we can comprehend a less hideous unfolding of events? How about:
Bush offers Chiles the services of the military when it looks like the
hurricane has done some tremendous damage. The military is not
*usually* called in on these things, but there is a precedent when
things are really bad (Hugo, the LA riots...). Chiles says thanks, and
he will keep the offer in mind, but he thinks the state can handle it
with National Guard troops alone. So after a couple of days, he changes
his mind and calls Bush. Bush immediately sends the military in. He
says within four hours of the call--I believe him.

Before you accuse somebody of something that's so inhumane, how about
really thinking about it first.

Cornell Kinderknecht

unread,
Sep 4, 1992, 1:49:03 PM9/4/92
to
jswi...@afit.af.mil (Chip Switzer) writes:

>rl...@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Robert Lamoureux) writes:

>>In article <mykes...@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG> my...@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes:
>>Ironic, isn't it, that Bush spends his days whining about government
>>bureaucracy and how much he wants to eliminate it, but he's perfectly
>>willing to hold out Federal aid for people who desperately need it
>>until protocol is observed, or "bureaucracy" is followed, in the
>>form of a letter from the Governor.

>Do you *really* think it went down like that, or are you just trying
>to be as difficult as you can? Can any sane person believe that either
>Bush or Chiles did any less than he could have? This bullshit about
>either of them holding off while people suffered, just for political
>one-upsmanship, is so completely assinine as to make me think these
>posters have a screw loose.

I don't see it as political on-upmanship either as you stated. I
think it's a prime example of lack of interest in anything
domestic.

alex

unread,
Sep 7, 1992, 12:29:20 PM9/7/92
to
In article <mykes...@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG> my...@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes:

[re: maybe GHWB called the governer and offered aid, and was refused]

>Alex, sounds like you were eavesdropping on the phone call. How the heck do you
>know Bush didn't make the offer? How do you know he wasn't anticipating a yes?
>YOU would paint him to look distracted... it serves your agenda nicely. And
>reinforcing what _SOME_ people think.

Mike, do you think before you write? If Bush had made an offer of
federal aid, and the offer was refused, I'm sure that we would have heard
about it by now. Bushs own comments "He [the governer] could have called
me sooner" indicate that no converstation ever happened.

[re: the federal bailout after HUGO]

>He did, at the expense of the economy and hence his image...

Lessee, first Lyndon Johnson killed the economy, or was it Carter,
then it was the deadlock congress, and now it's Hugo. Where will the buck
stop next?

Lyford Beverage

unread,
Sep 3, 1992, 1:19:03 PM9/3/92
to

|>
|> >If Mr. Bush had done this, he would have been in deeper shit. Every anti-
|> >Bush critter would crawl out from the woodwork and proclaim Bush's total
|> >disregard for states rights and federal law.
|>
|> I don't think so. It would be hard to make the charges stick, since
|> Bush would be acting soley for the good of the people, as opposed to personal
|> or political gain.


Can you really believe that? I've heard people complaining that Bush's trip to Florida on the first Monday was a purely political! How can he possibly not be called for playing politics if he actually violates the state's rights of Florida by sending in federal troops before being asked? And, if memory serves me correctly, he said that the troops were ready to go that day. And I know that FEMA people went down on Monday from Massachusetts. And I think that Bush also declared So. Fla. a disaster area t


hat day. So short of sending the troops, which he could not legally do, what could/should he have done differently?

alex

unread,
Sep 5, 1992, 11:36:16 AM9/5/92
to
In article <Bu2pw...@ais.org> dra...@ais.org (Patrick Draper) writes:

[re: bush waiting for the governers call]

>Those who slam Bush for sending troops to Florida, saying it is all for
>personal gain, would not allow Bush to get away with a flagrant violation of
>the Constitution.

I don't think that people are slamming bush for sending troops to
florida, at least I haven't heard theat sentimate. People are slamming bush
for not responding fast enough. As for the constitution, bush was talking to
the governer on monday, and could have said: "Hey, governer dude, I got some
troops. You want 'em?". Anticipating a yes, Bush could have landed the first
troops monday night, and become a national hero. As it was, he looks distracted
and uninterested in domestic affairs, reinforcing what people already think.

>And there are also those who forget that Bush picked up 100% of the cost of
>the Hugo disaster recovery effort as well, and that was certaily no election
>year.

Did he? I thought that the taxpayers picked up the tab on that one,
working in accord with existing policy. Should George get a medal for doing
what he's paid to do?

Mike Schwartz

unread,
Sep 7, 1992, 12:23:13 AM9/7/92
to
In article <1992Sep5....@umbc3.umbc.edu> al...@engr3.umbc.edu (alex) writes:
> In article <Bu2pw...@ais.org> dra...@ais.org (Patrick Draper) writes:
>
> [re: bush waiting for the governers call]
>
> >Those who slam Bush for sending troops to Florida, saying it is all for
> >personal gain, would not allow Bush to get away with a flagrant violation of
> >the Constitution.
>
> I don't think that people are slamming bush for sending troops to
> florida, at least I haven't heard theat sentimate. People are slamming bush
> for not responding fast enough. As for the constitution, bush was talking to
> the governer on monday, and could have said: "Hey, governer dude, I got some
> troops. You want 'em?". Anticipating a yes, Bush could have landed the first
> troops monday night, and become a national hero. As it was, he looks distracted
> and uninterested in domestic affairs, reinforcing what people already think.
>

Alex, sounds like you were eavesdropping on the phone call. How the heck do you


know Bush didn't make the offer? How do you know he wasn't anticipating a yes?
YOU would paint him to look distracted... it serves your agenda nicely. And

reinforcing what _SOME_ people think.

> >And there are also those who forget that Bush picked up 100% of the cost of
> >the Hugo disaster recovery effort as well, and that was certaily no election
> >year.
>
> Did he? I thought that the taxpayers picked up the tab on that one,
> working in accord with existing policy. Should George get a medal for doing
> what he's paid to do?
>

He did, at the expense of the economy and hence his image...

>


> --
> Alex Crain::UMBC Academic Computing Services
> The feminist agenda is a socialist, anti-family political movement that
> encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice
> witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians. - Pat Robertson 1992

--

Patrick Draper

unread,
Sep 4, 1992, 5:48:18 PM9/4/92
to
>In article <cluther.715298240@morticia> clu...@morticia.cnns.unt.edu (Clay Luther) writes:
>
> [bush should have sent troops in early, deleted]
>
>>If Mr. Bush had done this, he would have been in deeper shit. Every anti-
>>Bush critter would crawl out from the woodwork and proclaim Bush's total
>>disregard for states rights and federal law.
>
> I don't think so. It would be hard to make the charges stick, since
>Bush would be acting soley for the good of the people, as opposed to personal

Hi Alex,

The left hand knoweth not what the right hand doeth, it seems.

Those who slam Bush for sending troops to Florida, saying it is all for
personal gain, would not allow Bush to get away with a flagrant violation of
the Constitution.

And there are also those who forget that Bush picked up 100% of the cost of


the Hugo disaster recovery effort as well, and that was certaily no election
year.


------------------////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\------------------
| Patrick Draper Disclaimer: I can't control my fingers, |
| dra...@umcc.ais.org I can't control my toes! - Ramones |
| University of Michigan |
| Computer Club We are a nation of laws, not people |
------------------\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\////////////////////------------------

Patrick Draper

unread,
Sep 7, 1992, 4:51:04 AM9/7/92
to
>>Those who slam Bush for sending troops to Florida, saying it is all for
>>personal gain, would not allow Bush to get away with a flagrant violation of
>>the Constitution.
>
> I don't think that people are slamming bush for sending troops to
>florida, at least I haven't heard theat sentimate. People are slamming bush
>for not responding fast enough. As for the constitution, bush was talking to

There are quite a number of people who are bashing Bush because of the
magnitude of federal help that is in Florida. Not everyone believe s that it
is genuine. There's some feeling that it is motivated by this being an
election year.


>
>>And there are also those who forget that Bush picked up 100% of the cost of
>>the Hugo disaster recovery effort as well, and that was certaily no election
>>year.
>
> Did he? I thought that the taxpayers picked up the tab on that one,
>working in accord with existing policy. Should George get a medal for doing
>what he's paid to do?
>

Now now, don't pretend you don't understand what I'm talking about. Usually
the federal government picks up only 75% of the cost of disaster recovery,
leaving the remainder to state and local government. The feds picked up 100%
of Hugo, and will pick up 100% of the Florida effort. If he didn't, florida
would likely go bankrupt :-)

>
>--
> Alex Crain::UMBC Academic Computing Services
>The feminist agenda is a socialist, anti-family political movement that
>encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice
>witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians. - Pat Robertson 1992

Bill Nolte

unread,
Sep 8, 1992, 11:26:54 AM9/8/92
to
From article <1992Sep7.1...@umbc3.umbc.edu>, by al...@engr3.umbc.edu (alex):

> In article <mykes...@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG> my...@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes:
>
> [re: maybe GHWB called the governer and offered aid, and was refused]
>
>>Alex, sounds like you were eavesdropping on the phone call. How the heck do you
>>know Bush didn't make the offer? How do you know he wasn't anticipating a yes?
>>YOU would paint him to look distracted... it serves your agenda nicely. And
>>reinforcing what _SOME_ people think.
>
> Mike, do you think before you write? If Bush had made an offer of
> federal aid, and the offer was refused, I'm sure that we would have heard
> about it by now. Bushs own comments "He [the governer] could have called
> me sooner" indicate that no converstation ever happened.
>
Alex, do you listen? The offer was made, on national tv no less. To now
say that it didn't happen is a lie and the kind of revising of history that
hopefully will allow people to see your kind of agenda for what it really is:
lies and tripe.

> [re: the federal bailout after HUGO]
>

>>He did, at the expense of the economy and hence his image...
>

> Lessee, first Lyndon Johnson killed the economy, or was it Carter,
> then it was the deadlock congress, and now it's Hugo. Where will the buck
> stop next?
>

There is no doubt Hugo adversely affected the economy if you tie it to the
federal debt. However, if people like Johnson, Carter, and, yes, FDR hadn't
screwed it up so bad in the first place, we easily would have been able to
swallow the cost.

Bill Nolte
This does not represent the opinions of my employer, but the world would
be a lot better off if it did.

Stephenson Daniel A

unread,
Sep 10, 1992, 3:00:56 AM9/10/92
to
In article <mykes...@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG> my...@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes:
>In article <1992Sep5....@umbc3.umbc.edu> al...@engr3.umbc.edu (alex) writes:
>> In article <Bu2pw...@ais.org> dra...@ais.org (Patrick Draper) writes:
>>
>> [re: bush waiting for the governers call]
>>
>> >Those who slam Bush for sending troops to Florida, saying it is all for
>> >personal gain, would not allow Bush to get away with a flagrant violation of
>> >the Constitution.
>>
>> I don't think that people are slamming bush for sending troops to
>> florida, at least I haven't heard theat sentimate. People are slamming bush
>> for not responding fast enough. As for the constitution, bush was talking to
>> the governer on monday, and could have said: "Hey, governer dude, I got some
>> troops. You want 'em?". Anticipating a yes, Bush could have landed the first
>> troops monday night, and become a national hero. As it was, he looks distracted
>> and uninterested in domestic affairs, reinforcing what people already think.

George Bush could cure cancer tomorrow and some people might cliam he
did not act fast ennough. Either that or claim he only did it because this
was a political year.


>
>Alex, sounds like you were eavesdropping on the phone call. How the heck do you
>know Bush didn't make the offer? How do you know he wasn't anticipating a yes?
>YOU would paint him to look distracted... it serves your agenda nicely. And
>reinforcing what _SOME_ people think.

Don't I know you, Mike?
:)

>> >And there are also those who forget that Bush picked up 100% of the cost of
>> >the Hugo disaster recovery effort as well, and that was certaily no election
>> >year.
>>
>> Did he? I thought that the taxpayers picked up the tab on that one,
>> working in accord with existing policy. Should George get a medal for doing
>> what he's paid to do?

Just where in the hell DO you think fix the Hugo devestation? Right,
the government thru taxpayer dollars and insurance companies.

>He did, at the expense of the economy and hence his image...

Heh heh. It think its so funny (unfortunately) that people equate
the President with state of the economy, as if they directly have anything
to dowith each other.

Sheesh, haven't people heard of the House of Democ- uh, I mean Representatives
and the Fed?

>> Alex Crain::UMBC Academic Computing Services
>

>Amiga programmer of: GRn, MailMinder, Budokan, Beyond Dark Castle, Dark Castle

Eww! Amiga!?! Ewww! :)

>Mike Schwartz (ames!zorch!amiga0!mykes or my...@amiga0.sf-bay.org)

Now Mike, why am I not surprise seeing you here? :)

--
Dan Stephenson das...@usl.edu
" BERLIN WALL FALLS. 3 BORDER GUARDS LOSE JOBS. CLINTON BLAMES BUSH! "
-George Bush, '92 Republican nomination acceptance speech

Michael Polen

unread,
Sep 10, 1992, 11:23:27 AM9/10/92
to
Stephenson Daniel A) writes:
|>
|> George Bush could cure cancer tomorrow and some people might cliam he
|> did not act fast ennough. Either that or claim he only did it because this
|> was a political year.
|> >
No, we would wonder why he was spending his time in the lab and not in the
white house. Bush was elected President of the United States by the people
of the United States. His primary job is our overall welfare. Not his
long suit.
_________________________________________
These opinions are usually my own, sometimes my
dog's, never my employer's.

Mike Schwartz

unread,
Sep 9, 1992, 12:32:20 PM9/9/92
to
In article <1992Sep3.1...@dbsun.uucp> hul...@dbsun.uucp (hulsey) writes:
> In article <mykes...@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG>
> my...@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes:
> >
> >Sorry, alex. But as you have demonstrated by your several posts on this
> >subject, Bush would be attacked for the most ridiculous of charges. Give
> >his enemies, such as yourself, a legitimate charge, and you'd keep your
> >mouth shut? I doubt it.
>
> I think the charges by both sides have been pretty ridiculous. First, Bush
> is not allowed to send in Federal troops unless specifically asked for by
> the state. So first, the governor has to assess the damage. He doesn't
> call for troops right away, because, after all, he would rather Florida be
> self-reliant (one of those conservative mantras, dontcha know). Once he
> finds out the extent of the damage, he calls for Federal assistance. The
> logistics of the situation is just incredible. Frankly, I'm impressed
> the army got there as soon as it did. I think Bush handled the situation
> well. And so did the governor of Florida.
>
> Well, that's my first, last, and only words on the subject. We return you
> to your regularly scheduled flamewar.
>

Alex, of course, has omitted the fact that Gov. Lawton Chiles (sp?) of Fla.
is a Democrat :)

> >Alex, you couldn't be more wrong. But if your attitude is typical of
> >liberals, I guess the constitution is something to be spit upon.
>
> Liberals only spit on the Constitution when they aim at conservatives
> and miss :-) Or they spit on the flag because they were aiming at the
> conservative who had wrapped himself up in it :-) :-)
>

Very reminiscent of the Gramm/Rudmann joke Gramm made during his speech
at the convention.

> Seriously, I think both liberals and conservatives have done their fair
> share of spitting. Liberals have invented laws in courts (Roe v. Wade).
> Conservatives have ignored laws (Supplying aid to the Contras in spite
> of laws forbidding it).
>

The Bowlen amendment was unconstitutional. If congress is allowed to make
laws that restrict or eliminate the presidential powers of foreign policy
institution, then congress becomes the only branch in government. A GREAT
example of spitting on the constitution.

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> hulsey%dbsun...@wupost.wustl.edu (Jim Hulsey) TBDBITL '84 ('85 Rose Bowl)
> An Ohioan living in Misery (Missouri, same difference)
>
> Watch what you say! Won't you sign up your name
> They'll be calling you a radical So you can be their dependable
> A liberal, fanatical criminal Respectable, presentable vegetable
> -- Supertramp "The Logical Song"

--


Amiga programmer of: GRn, MailMinder, Budokan, Beyond Dark Castle, Dark Castle

Sega Genesis programmer of: Dick Tracy and Marble Madness.

Mike Schwartz (ames!zorch!amiga0!mykes or my...@amiga0.sf-bay.org)

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