Underage Model
Alan Little
willing to sign the model release, but it is my policy to have a parent
present at the shoot, and the mother is not willing to do that. The model
suggest that she bring another adult with her. Anyone see any problems with
that?
--
Alan
Celcius
"Alan Little" <al...@NOSPAMabpo.net> wrote in message
news:Xns991056136...@127.0.0.1...
Is this a troll......?
NO way.
Richard Polhill
>> --
>> Alan
Doesn't sound like it. Is 17 underage for modelling when it's fine for any
other job? I am assuming that the modelling is not glamour or porn, of course...
Celcius
"Richard Polhill" <richar...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote in message
news:1662a$461e2d44$3e18e6cb$60...@news.vispa.com...
That's not the point.
The point is she is 17 and goes alone there.
Afterwards, she can say anything... who's to prove differently?
Marcel
Richard Polhill
So you're saying that nobody can spend time with a 17-year old in any context
without an accompanying parent?
What can she say that she can't say under any other circumstance? What if he
was employing her as an assistant instead of model?
Alan Little
Celcius of alt.photography make plain:
> "Richard Polhill" <richar...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote in
> message news:1662a$461e2d44$3e18e6cb$60...@news.vispa.com...
>
>> Celcius wrote:
>>
>>> "Alan Little" <al...@NOSPAMabpo.net> wrote in message
>>> news:Xns991056136...@127.0.0.1...
>>>
>>>> There is a 17-year-old girl who wants to model for me. Her mother
>>>> is willing to sign the model release, but it is my policy to have a
>>>> parent present at the shoot, and the mother is not willing to do
>>>> that. The model suggest that she bring another adult with her.
>>>> Anyone see any problems with that?
>>
>>> Is this a troll......?
No, but thanks for asking.
>> Doesn't sound like it. Is 17 underage for modelling when it's fine
>> for any other job? I am assuming that the modelling is not glamour or
>> porn, of course...
Right.
> That's not the point.
> The point is she is 17 and goes alone there.
> Afterwards, she can say anything... who's to prove differently?
That's the reason for the accompanying adult (see the part about
"...bring another adult with her.") I also will have an assistant
present.
--
Alan
Pat
> Carved in mystic runes upon the very living rock, the last words of
> Celcius of alt.photography make plain:
>
> > messagenews:1662a$461e2d44$3e18e6cb$60...@news.vispa.com...
>
> >> Celcius wrote:
>
> >>> "Alan Little" <a...@NOSPAMabpo.net> wrote in message
> >>>news:Xns991056136...@127.0.0.1...
>
> >>>> There is a 17-year-old girl who wants to model for me. Her mother
> >>>> is willing to sign the model release, but it is my policy to have a
> >>>> parent present at the shoot, and the mother is not willing to do
> >>>> that. The model suggest that she bring another adult with her.
> >>>> Anyone see any problems with that?
>
> >>> Is this a troll......?
>
> No, but thanks for asking.
>
> >> Doesn't sound like it. Is 17 underage for modelling when it's fine
> >> for any other job? I am assuming that the modelling is not glamour or
> >> porn, of course...
>
> Right.
>
> > That's not the point.
> > The point is she is 17 and goes alone there.
> > Afterwards, she can say anything... who's to prove differently?
>
> That's the reason for the accompanying adult (see the part about
> "...bring another adult with her.") I also will have an assistant
> present.
>
> --
> Alan
Set up a video camera and a clock. When she comes in, have her stand
there with the release in hand, state her name, address, DOB. then
bring in the release to capture that. Don't tell her (or make her
feel) that it's because you don't trust her. Say it's because of
"copyright" issues or "insurance" or "it's requred because I'm a
member of NAARSU" etc. If you're not scared and you're acting like
it's routine, then she'll think it's routine.
then just keep the camera running as you do you shoot and for a while
after she leaves.
If nothing untowards happens, she won't then make anything up because
she's aware of the videotaping. Heck, you wouldn't even really need
tape in the camera for it to works. OTOH, if something untoward
happens, you're then pretty much SOL.
Glen in Orlando
male and the MOTHER, in this day and age, doesn't want to be there?
Hmmm.. how about this.... You do the shoot. Mother denies knowing about it
(signed release or not).... you get sued or arrested. Better yet.. under
age girl says you tried
to... well.. use your imagination.
This would have alarm bells going off in my head. If you go ahead with this
be sure to have a witness of YOUR choosing present as well to preclude
this underage girl and her "friend" from setting you up. Better yet... keep
all activity in a public place.
Just that fact that you even thought that you might have to be concerned
should be enough to say "no thanks"...
JMHO
Glen
Richard Polhill
> JMHO
> Glen
Sorry, I'm trying to understand the problem here. What do you mean by "underage"?
WTF is the question? If she was 30 wouldn't she still be able to claim
anything against you? Why is a 17 year old adult different to any other? Are
17-year-olds unable to refrain from making false accusations?
Colin_D
pornography.
If you aren't going to do that, but want to shoot glamour, with clothes
on, then 17 is ok.
You really have two questions here. Above is one of them. The other is
the possibility of the model, of any age, claiming you touched, groped,
assaulted in any way, or even just made off-color remarks, and sinking
you for sexual assault. To prevent this, you could have a wide-angle
video running, with a clock with sweep second hand in the frame to prove
no editing took place, but preferably a witness or chaperone for your
protection, preferably female, both to set the model's mind at ease, and
to circumvent any claim that two males had a go at her.
A person brought by the model would be more likely to side with her in
any dispute, which wouldn't help you at all. And a dispute could easily
arise because of a misunderstood posing suggestion or remark.
Colin D.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Celcius
"Richard Polhill" <richar...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote in message
All I'm saying is that nowadays, things are different...
The problem isn't that she'd be a model, but the fact that she would be
alone with him.
I know. It's stupid, but so's our times...
Alan Little
> Glen in Orlando wrote:
>> Let's see... an under age girl is going to be at a photo shoot with
>> an adult male and the MOTHER, in this day and age, doesn't want to be
>> there?
Yeah, I know what you mean. I get the impression Mom isn't too concerned
about what happens with her kids.
>> Hmmm.. how about this.... You do the shoot. Mother denies knowing
>> about it (signed release or not)....
I don't think I'll go so far as to have her signature notarized, but I
will have a copy of her photo ID, and I will witness her signing the
release, as will my assistant.
>> you get sued or arrested. Better yet.. under age girl says you tried
>> to... well.. use your imagination.
>
>> This would have alarm bells going off in my head. If you go ahead
>> with this be sure to have a witness of YOUR choosing present as well
>> to preclude this underage girl and her "friend" from setting you up.
>> Better yet... keep all activity in a public place.
>
>> Just that fact that you even thought that you might have to be
>> concerned should be enough to say "no thanks"...
>
> Sorry, I'm trying to understand the problem here. What do you mean by
> "underage"?
Below the legal age of consent -- 18 in most places.
> WTF is the question? If she was 30 wouldn't she still be able to claim
> anything against you? Why is a 17 year old adult different to any
> other? Are 17-year-olds unable to refrain from making false
> accusations?
Logically, you're correct, but these days public opinion with regard to
children is anything but logical -- a lot of hysteria has been stirred
up.
I really don't foresee a problem with her making any claims; I've
interviewed her and she seems pretty sincere. I think with reasonable
precautions it should be fine.
Thanks to everyone for the feedback.
--
Alan
Alan Little
> Alan Little wrote:
>
>> There is a 17-year-old girl who wants to model for me. Her mother is
>> willing to sign the model release, but it is my policy to have a
>> parent present at the shoot, and the mother is not willing to do
>> that. The model suggest that she bring another adult with her. Anyone
>> see any problems with that?
>>
> AFAIK models have to be at least 18 if you are intending to shoot
> pornography.
I'm not, although the model does want to do topless. I think I'll just
do a basic shoot to begin with and see how that goes, then take it from
there.
I also had a 16-year-old respond to my ad, wanting to do nude. I'm not
too sure about that. If I had David Hamilton's credibility, maybe.
> You really have two questions here. Above is one of them. The other
> is the possibility of the model, of any age, claiming you touched,
> groped, assaulted in any way, or even just made off-color remarks, and
> sinking you for sexual assault. To prevent this, you could have a
> wide-angle video running, with a clock with sweep second hand in the
> frame to prove no editing took place, but preferably a witness or
> chaperone for your protection, preferably female, both to set the
> model's mind at ease, and to circumvent any claim that two males had a
> go at her.
I may or may not go with the video; I definitely will have another
female present.
--
Alan
Richard Polhill
For a given and very specialized value of "most", obviously.
>> WTF is the question? If she was 30 wouldn't she still be able to claim
>> anything against you? Why is a 17 year old adult different to any
>> other? Are 17-year-olds unable to refrain from making false
>> accusations?
> Logically, you're correct, but these days public opinion with regard to
> children is anything but logical -- a lot of hysteria has been stirred
> up.
Again, a different and very specialized value of "child".
Rob Morley
al...@NOSPAMabpo.net says...
> Carved in mystic runes upon the very living rock, the last words of
> Richard Polhill of alt.photography make plain:
>
> > Sorry, I'm trying to understand the problem here. What do you mean by
> > "underage"?
>
> Below the legal age of consent -- 18 in most places.
>
Not in most of Europe, but I don't see that it's particularly relevant
anyway. If an allegation of sexual assault were made then the I
wouldn't have thought the age of the alleged victim would make much
difference, except to the statute that was used for the prosecution - if
it was a charge of statutory rape then the prosecution wouldn't need to
prove that it was non-consensual, but either way they'd have to prove
beyond reasonable doubt that the incident had actually taken place.
It might be wise to use a female makeup/lighting assistant, but other
than that I wouldn't worry about it.
Alan Little
Richard Polhill of alt.photography make plain:
> Alan Little wrote:
>> Carved in mystic runes upon the very living rock, the last words of
>> Richard Polhill of alt.photography make plain:
>
>>> Sorry, I'm trying to understand the problem here. What do you mean
>>> by "underage"?
>
>> Below the legal age of consent -- 18 in most places.
>
> For a given and very specialized value of "most", obviously.
>
>>> WTF is the question? If she was 30 wouldn't she still be able to
>>> claim anything against you? Why is a 17 year old adult different to
>>> any other? Are 17-year-olds unable to refrain from making false
>>> accusations?
>
>> Logically, you're correct, but these days public opinion with regard
>> to children is anything but logical -- a lot of hysteria has been
>> stirred up.
>
> Again, a different and very specialized value of "child".
Well however different and specialized it might be, it applies to where I
live, hence my interest. I'm concerned with potential legal issues, not
with what's moral or logical, since law often has little connection with
logic or morality.
--
Alan
Wild Cabayo
"Alan Little" <al...@NOSPAMabpo.net> wrote in message
news:Xns991056136...@127.0.0.1...
Just be safe rather than sorry. Don't make exceptions to critical policies
regarding minors under the age of 18. A parent or Legal Guardian who can
sign the model release must be present at the shoot. Having an assistant not
affiliated or related to them also covers you from "he says, she says",
situations. No need to video or tape record the shoot. Also, don't take
pictures of the minor that can be construed in any way, shape or, form as
"inappropriate" for the minor's age.
AustinMN
<snip>
>
> I'm not, although the model does want to do topless.
Being 17 and topless is (or at least used to be) considered compelling
evidence of statutory rape in many juristictions in the U.S.
Personally I would walk away, but that situation (topless photography
of a 17 YO) would be something that would give me more trouble with my
wife than the courts could ever dish out. =8-O
Austin (not wanting to sing in a higher register...)
Glen in Orlando
I don't mean to be harsh (really) but have you been living under a rock?
We live in a society (these days) where you can get in a world of trouble
even tho' you are totally inoccent. We frequently use a baby sitter so that
my wife
and I can go out. I DO NOT PICK UP OR DROP OFF THE teenage FEMALE sitter
without my
wife being present... period!
I'm not a pervert, and find even the thought of taking advantage of a minor
repugnant.
However, there are TONS of men out there who's lives have been ruined by the
whim of
an immature "underage" girl.
You ask what the difference is between doing something wrong with a girl
below the legal
age and an adult. Simple. In this day and age all a young girl has to do is
"claim" you did something.
Whether you did or not... your life is ruined.
Have you ever listened to a teenage girl yapping on a phone? All she has to
do is 'brag' to a girlfriend
that she did something in a photoshoot that she really didn't do... wham!
You do read the paper right?
If the MOTHER of this girl doesn't want to be responsible, then why in
heavens name would any of you??
JMHO
Glen
AustinMN
>
> >> There is a 17-year-old girl who wants to model for me. Her mother is
> >> willing to sign the model release, but it is my policy to have a
> >> parent present at the shoot, and the mother is not willing to do
> >> that. The model suggest that she bring another adult with her. Anyone
> >> see any problems with that?
>
> do a basic shoot to begin with and see how that goes, then take it from
> there.
>
> I also had a 16-year-old respond to my ad, wanting to do nude. I'm not
> too sure about that. If I had David Hamilton's credibility, maybe.
I know I already responded to this, but I just thought of something
else.
What kinds of things did your ad mention? I'm wondering if the
"model" is really a police employee posing as a 17 year old with the
intention of showing some prosecutor is tough on child pornographers -
you. Remember that with "children," the U.S. courts have a very
different view of what is and is not pornography.
Austin
bworthey
"Richard Polhill" <richar...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote in message
> For a given and very specialized value of "most", obviously.
>
>>> WTF is the question? If she was 30 wouldn't she still be able to claim
>>> anything against you? Why is a 17 year old adult different to any
>>> other? Are 17-year-olds unable to refrain from making false
>>> accusations?
17 year olds aren't considered adults, that's the problem. And the fact
that if he is more that 36 months older than her, she can claim anything and
it be considered abuse. The laws for things like that are good to protect
kids, etc, but unfortunately that is the society we live in too that someone
has to worry about that. But you are right, someone who was 30 could make
the same claims and it would be his word against hers. But in this
situation, it would be his word against the girls and the girl's mother,
father, and whoever else she told.
B-Worthey
moonface
"Pat" <gro...@artisticphotography.us> wrote in message
news:1176390358.5...@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> Set up a video camera and a clock. When she comes in, have her stand
> there with the release in hand, state her name, address, DOB. then
> bring in the release to capture that. Don't tell her (or make her
> feel) that it's because you don't trust her. Say it's because of
> "copyright" issues or "insurance" or "it's requred because I'm a
> member of NAARSU" etc. If you're not scared and you're acting like
> it's routine, then she'll think it's routine.
>
> then just keep the camera running as you do you shoot and for a while
> after she leaves.
>
> If nothing untowards happens, she won't then make anything up because
> she's aware of the videotaping. Heck, you wouldn't even really need
> tape in the camera for it to works. OTOH, if something untoward
> happens, you're then pretty much SOL.
The video camera scenario is what I'd suggest as well. However, I wouldn't
even dress it up and make excuses, I'd just be straight with her from the
word go that it was for both of your (our) protection and she could gladly
have a copy of the tape along with her portfolio shots once the deal is
done.
If she's moody about this then she's probably too immature to be entering
into the modelling world and as such I would politely suggest she make
alternate arrangements. If she *really* protests loudly about the camera
then IMHO you have your answer as to what would probably follow after the
session and you would be an idiot to proceed.
Unknown
topless photography with a male photographer, I would deffinately want
to be there with her. Something about the composition of this picture
is not cool. I wouldn't touch this one with a ten foot cattle prod.
Just my $0.02
Ky Poillon
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Alan Little
> On Apr 13, 7:32 am, Alan Little <a...@NOSPAMabpo.net> wrote:
> <snip>
>>
>> I'm not, although the model does want to do topless.
>
> Being 17 and topless is (or at least used to be) considered compelling
> evidence of statutory rape in many juristictions in the U.S.
I kind of doubt that, but it's possible. However, it isn't now. Even full
nudity isn't a problem, so long as it isn't pornographic -- witness
Hamilton, Sturges and Mann. And nudist publications have been showing
adults and children of all ages for many years.
Anyway, that's not really an issue at this point. I'm not going to do the
topless session now, if ever. My concern was about not having a parent
present at the shoot. I think I'll go ahead with it, and just have an adult
of her choosing, plus a female assistant. I may or may not go with the
video camera.
Thanks again to all who responded.
--
Alan Little
Pat
You know, if you're that worried you should NOT have her have an
assistant there. If it's just the two of you (topless or wearing
parkas) if she wants to make a fuss she can. Then it's the typical he
said/she said. If she brings a friend or parent, then there's a
WITNESS and the witness won't side with you. So if you have reason to
be scared, then don't do it.
Rod
> There is a 17-year-old girl who wants to model for me. Her mother is
> suggest that she bring another adult with her. Anyone see any problems with
> that?
>
spend time trying to protect yourself. Just don't
do it.
Timmerman
agree good luck and greetings from onyx
JHP
> There is a 17-year-old girl who wants to model for me. Her mother is
> willing to sign the model release, but it is my policy to have a parent
> present at the shoot, and the mother is not willing to do that. The model
> suggest that she bring another adult with her. Anyone see any problems with
> that?
>
I have done a few shots like this. No problems so far.
As long as the parent knows the other adult.