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anticipation in finches
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dh
Jun 18, 2013, 6:14:35 PM6/18/13
to
I feed mealworms to my finches a few times a week. When I begin the process
of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes down to the
area in anticipation. Sometimes the male joins her, meaning that he's also aware
of and anticipating what's about to happen even though he doesn't always come in
close. Sometimes I let the female come down and grab a worm, but sometimes not
because her wings blow the litter around making a bit of a mess. Whether I let
her or not though both birds definitely anticipate getting mealworms when they
see me begin the process.
of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes down to the
area in anticipation. Sometimes the male joins her, meaning that he's also aware
of and anticipating what's about to happen even though he doesn't always come in
close. Sometimes I let the female come down and grab a worm, but sometimes not
because her wings blow the litter around making a bit of a mess. Whether I let
her or not though both birds definitely anticipate getting mealworms when they
see me begin the process.
George Plimpton
Jun 18, 2013, 6:41:39 PM6/18/13
to
On 6/18/2013 3:14 PM, Fuckwit David Harrison - *Goo* - stupid,
illiterate cracker and convicted felon, defeated entirely in 1999 and
doing nothing but wasting time ever since, lied:
> I feed mealworms to my finches a few times a week. When I begin the process
> of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes down to the
> area in anticipation.
Nothing but conditioned response to a signal. If you didn't enter the
room and start doing it, she wouldn't come down.
Finches do not anticipate.
illiterate cracker and convicted felon, defeated entirely in 1999 and
doing nothing but wasting time ever since, lied:
> I feed mealworms to my finches a few times a week. When I begin the process
> of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes down to the
> area in anticipation.
room and start doing it, she wouldn't come down.
Finches do not anticipate.
MarkA
Jun 18, 2013, 7:47:09 PM6/18/13
to
noise when doing so), she stands at her feeding spot, with drool dripping
out of her mouth.
--
MarkA
Keeper of Things Put There Only Just The Night Before
About eight o'clock
Dhu on Gate
Jun 18, 2013, 7:51:56 PM6/18/13
to
Dhu
--
Ne obliviscaris, vix ea nostra voco.
George Plimpton
Jun 18, 2013, 8:24:04 PM6/18/13
to
On 6/18/2013 4:47 PM, MarkA wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:14:35 -0400, Fuckwit David Harrison - *Goo* - stupid, illiterate cracker and convicted felon, defeate
emotion. The anticipation being discussed is the *emotional* state of a
person contemplating an expected event. It's a completely different
meaning of the word anticipation. Fuckwit Harrison is deliberately
equivocating on the word. His finches do not have *any* emotional
reaction at all, and the physical reaction they have does not occur
until they receive the visual signal that he is preparing food for them;
and then the response is immediate.
A little child old enough to know the days of the week who is told on
Monday that she will be taken to Disneyland on Saturday does not require
any signal to begin to experience an emotional excitement - anticipation
- on Friday afternoon.
> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:14:35 -0400, Fuckwit David Harrison - *Goo* - stupid, illiterate cracker and convicted felon, defeate
>
>> I feed mealworms to my finches a few times a week. When I begin the
>> process
>> of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes down
>> to the area in anticipation. Sometimes the male joins her, meaning that
>> he's also aware of and anticipating what's about to happen even though he
>> doesn't always come in close. Sometimes I let the female come down and
>> grab a worm, but sometimes not because her wings blow the litter around
>> making a bit of a mess. Whether I let her or not though both birds
>> definitely anticipate getting mealworms when they see me begin the
>> process.
>
> When I'm putting my dog's food in a bowl (I'm always sure to make LOTS of
> noise when doing so), she stands at her feeding spot, with drool dripping
> out of her mouth.
That's nothing but a conditioned response to a signal. It's not an
>> I feed mealworms to my finches a few times a week. When I begin the
>> process
>> of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes down
>> to the area in anticipation. Sometimes the male joins her, meaning that
>> he's also aware of and anticipating what's about to happen even though he
>> doesn't always come in close. Sometimes I let the female come down and
>> grab a worm, but sometimes not because her wings blow the litter around
>> making a bit of a mess. Whether I let her or not though both birds
>> definitely anticipate getting mealworms when they see me begin the
>> process.
>
> When I'm putting my dog's food in a bowl (I'm always sure to make LOTS of
> noise when doing so), she stands at her feeding spot, with drool dripping
> out of her mouth.
emotion. The anticipation being discussed is the *emotional* state of a
person contemplating an expected event. It's a completely different
meaning of the word anticipation. Fuckwit Harrison is deliberately
equivocating on the word. His finches do not have *any* emotional
reaction at all, and the physical reaction they have does not occur
until they receive the visual signal that he is preparing food for them;
and then the response is immediate.
A little child old enough to know the days of the week who is told on
Monday that she will be taken to Disneyland on Saturday does not require
any signal to begin to experience an emotional excitement - anticipation
- on Friday afternoon.
George Plimpton
Jun 18, 2013, 8:24:37 PM6/18/13
to
Dhu on Gate
Jun 18, 2013, 9:55:07 PM6/18/13
to
processes, to be sure, but for reasons *you* cannot understand.
Dhu on Gate
Jun 18, 2013, 9:58:38 PM6/18/13
to
http://phys.org/news/2013-06-older-males-fathers-mature-male.html
You imagine everything as obtuse as yourself. Thank G*d it's not so.
George Plimpton
Jun 18, 2013, 10:19:14 PM6/18/13
to
On 6/18/2013 6:55 PM, Dhu on Gate wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 17:24:37 -0700, George Plimpton wrote:
>
>> On 6/18/2013 4:51 PM, Dhu on Gate wrote:
>>> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:41:39 -0700, George Plimpton wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 6/18/2013 3:14 PM, Fuckwit David Harrison - *Goo* - stupid,
>>>> illiterate cracker and convicted felon, defeated entirely in 1999 and
>>>> doing nothing but wasting time ever since, lied:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I feed mealworms to my finches a few times a week. When I begin
>>>>> the process
>>>>> of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes
>>>>> down to the area in anticipation.
>>>>
>>>> Nothing but conditioned response to a signal. If you didn't enter the
>>>> room and start doing it, she wouldn't come down.
>>>>
>>>> Finches do not anticipate.
>>>
>>> HTF would you know?
>>
>> I do know. You couldn't possibly understand how.
>
> You are quite correct about my inability to comprehend
I know.
> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 17:24:37 -0700, George Plimpton wrote:
>
>> On 6/18/2013 4:51 PM, Dhu on Gate wrote:
>>> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:41:39 -0700, George Plimpton wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 6/18/2013 3:14 PM, Fuckwit David Harrison - *Goo* - stupid,
>>>> illiterate cracker and convicted felon, defeated entirely in 1999 and
>>>> doing nothing but wasting time ever since, lied:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I feed mealworms to my finches a few times a week. When I begin
>>>>> the process
>>>>> of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes
>>>>> down to the area in anticipation.
>>>>
>>>> Nothing but conditioned response to a signal. If you didn't enter the
>>>> room and start doing it, she wouldn't come down.
>>>>
>>>> Finches do not anticipate.
>>>
>>> HTF would you know?
>>
>> I do know. You couldn't possibly understand how.
>
> You are quite correct about my inability to comprehend
George Plimpton
Jun 18, 2013, 10:25:24 PM6/18/13
to
mortality. Anyway, that's the wrong meaning of anticipation.
kni...@baawa.com
Jun 18, 2013, 11:12:55 PM6/18/13
to
he hears the can opener. It may be a can of beans or a can of cat
food.
If you think animals have human like emotions and can rationalize
events, you are an idiot.
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
George Plimpton
Jun 19, 2013, 12:36:34 AM6/19/13
to
On 6/18/2013 8:12 PM, kni...@baawa.com wrote:
>
> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:14:35 -0400, Fuckwit David Harrison - *Goo* - stupid, illiterate cracker and convicted felon, defeated entirely in 1999 and doing nothing but wasting time ever since, lied:
That's exactly what Fuckwit thinks, and he is indeed an idiot. However,
in this case, Fuckwit is equivocating on different meanings of the word
anticipation. One sense of the word is an emotion people experience as
they *contemplate* an event they expect to occur. It is the *emotion*
that arises from the contemplation of the expected event. The meaning
of anticipation that Fuckwit is using is the expectation itself, not the
emotion arising from the contemplation of it. These distinctions are
simply too far above Fuckwit's mental abilities.
The finch is not experiencing any emotional state. It is not
contemplating anything about being fed. It simply perceives the signal
- Fuckwit clumsily fucking around with the mealworms - and, through
operant conditioning, expects that it will soon eat. There is no
emotional component to it at all.
Fuckwit is a fool and an idiot, in addition to being a lying cracker.
>
> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:14:35 -0400, Fuckwit David Harrison - *Goo* - stupid, illiterate cracker and convicted felon, defeated entirely in 1999 and doing nothing but wasting time ever since, lied:
in this case, Fuckwit is equivocating on different meanings of the word
anticipation. One sense of the word is an emotion people experience as
they *contemplate* an event they expect to occur. It is the *emotion*
that arises from the contemplation of the expected event. The meaning
of anticipation that Fuckwit is using is the expectation itself, not the
emotion arising from the contemplation of it. These distinctions are
simply too far above Fuckwit's mental abilities.
The finch is not experiencing any emotional state. It is not
contemplating anything about being fed. It simply perceives the signal
- Fuckwit clumsily fucking around with the mealworms - and, through
operant conditioning, expects that it will soon eat. There is no
emotional component to it at all.
Fuckwit is a fool and an idiot, in addition to being a lying cracker.
Dhu on Gate
Jun 19, 2013, 12:49:08 AM6/19/13
to
George Plimpton
Jun 19, 2013, 2:03:17 AM6/19/13
to
equivocates, as do you. Actually, you're just being splenetic. I've
slapped the fuck out of you, numerous times, so you're just arguing and
thrashing because you're a prick.
Dhu on Gate
Jun 19, 2013, 2:10:01 AM6/19/13
to
bilge and you're too stupid to know when you've been shown wrong.
As to the sentience of animals, Decartes used to make claims like yours,
so I'd like to re-run some of his dog'n'pain experiments on you to see if
there is any difference in your reaction ... which I doubt.
George Plimpton
Jun 19, 2013, 2:34:49 AM6/19/13
to
are usually essential to being right. And I *am* right.
Dhu on Gate
Jun 19, 2013, 12:32:35 PM6/19/13
to
lips flap around something it must be right.
George Plimpton
Jun 19, 2013, 12:38:27 PM6/19/13
to
a fucking idiot.
George Plimpton
Jun 19, 2013, 1:12:05 PM6/19/13
to
I know that Rupert does not doubt his own existence.
I know that Rupert knows he is a human being and not some other
non-human entity.
I know that Rupert knows that contrary to what Fuckwit has said, Derek
Nash, Dutch and I are three distinct persons.
I know that Rupert knows that when Fuckwit blabbers about people owing
"consideration" to livestock animals' lives, what Fuckwit really is
demanding is that people ought to want livestock animals to exist.
That's a start. As needed, we'll cover some other things that I know
Rupert knows because he has to know them - he can't not know them.
I know that Rupert knows he is a human being and not some other
non-human entity.
I know that Rupert knows that contrary to what Fuckwit has said, Derek
Nash, Dutch and I are three distinct persons.
I know that Rupert knows that when Fuckwit blabbers about people owing
"consideration" to livestock animals' lives, what Fuckwit really is
demanding is that people ought to want livestock animals to exist.
That's a start. As needed, we'll cover some other things that I know
Rupert knows because he has to know them - he can't not know them.
Mr.Smartypants
Jun 19, 2013, 2:54:08 PM6/19/13
to
SkyEyes
Jun 19, 2013, 6:03:51 PM6/19/13
to
On Jun 18, 5:24 pm, George Plimpton <geo...@si.not> wrote:
> On 6/18/2013 4:47 PM, MarkA wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:14:35 -0400, Fuckwit David Harrison - *Goo* - stupid, illiterate cracker and convicted felon, defeate
>
> >> I feed mealworms to my finches a few times a week. When I begin the
> >> process
> >> of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes down
> >> to the area in anticipation. Sometimes the male joins her, meaning that
> >> he's also aware of and anticipating what's about to happen even though he
> >> doesn't always come in close. Sometimes I let the female come down and
> >> grab a worm, but sometimes not because her wings blow the litter around
> >> making a bit of a mess. Whether I let her or not though both birds
> >> definitely anticipate getting mealworms when they see me begin the
> >> process.
>
> > When I'm putting my dog's food in a bowl (I'm always sure to make LOTS of
> > noise when doing so), she stands at her feeding spot, with drool dripping
> > out of her mouth.
>
> That's nothing but a conditioned response to a signal. It's not an
> emotion. The anticipation being discussed is the *emotional* state of a
> person contemplating an expected event. It's a completely different
> meaning of the word anticipation.
And *you* don't know there's *not* any emotion involved, you're just
> On 6/18/2013 4:47 PM, MarkA wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:14:35 -0400, Fuckwit David Harrison - *Goo* - stupid, illiterate cracker and convicted felon, defeate
>
> >> I feed mealworms to my finches a few times a week. When I begin the
> >> process
> >> of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes down
> >> to the area in anticipation. Sometimes the male joins her, meaning that
> >> he's also aware of and anticipating what's about to happen even though he
> >> doesn't always come in close. Sometimes I let the female come down and
> >> grab a worm, but sometimes not because her wings blow the litter around
> >> making a bit of a mess. Whether I let her or not though both birds
> >> definitely anticipate getting mealworms when they see me begin the
> >> process.
>
> > When I'm putting my dog's food in a bowl (I'm always sure to make LOTS of
> > noise when doing so), she stands at her feeding spot, with drool dripping
> > out of her mouth.
>
> That's nothing but a conditioned response to a signal. It's not an
> emotion. The anticipation being discussed is the *emotional* state of a
> person contemplating an expected event. It's a completely different
> meaning of the word anticipation.
parroting out-of-date behaviorist dogma from the 1950s, when it was
thought that animals were merely machines made of meat.
Humans are animals, and we experience emotions. It's not out of the
realm of probability that other animals experience emotions, too. In
fact, there's no reason (other than hubris, of course) to think that
they *don't*.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34 and A+ atheist
BAAWA Knight of the Golden Litterbox
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes nine at cox dot net OR
skyeyes nine at yahoo dot com
SkyEyes
Jun 19, 2013, 6:09:34 PM6/19/13
to
dog has the same degree of consciousness and sentience as a 3-year-old
human child. Furthermore, mammals, birds, and reptiles have the same
brain structures (particularly mammals and birds) that humans have,
and that are known to play a part in the production of emotion. It's
pretty silly to think that animals *don't* have emotions. And they
can, quite clearly, rationalize to a degree. If you think they can't,
you're not paying sufficient attention.
It's nothing but hubris to claim that humans are the only animals that
have emotions, and it stems from the same arguments that theists use
to claim that humans have "souls" and animals do not.
Spamßuster
Jun 19, 2013, 7:57:48 PM6/19/13
to
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On 6/19/2013 9:32 AM, Dhu on Gate wrote:
> When I'm putting my dog's food in a bowl (I'm always sure to make
> LOTS of noise when doing so), she stands at her feeding spot,
> with drool dripping out of her mouth.
>>>>>>>> Dhu
> LOTS of noise when doing so), she stands at her feeding spot,
> with drool dripping out of her mouth.
Spamßuster
Jun 19, 2013, 7:58:25 PM6/19/13
to
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Spamßuster
Jun 19, 2013, 7:59:14 PM6/19/13
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On 6/18/2013 9:49 PM, Dhu on Gate wrote:
> His finches do not have *any* emotional
> reaction at all, and the physical reaction they have does not occur
> until they receive the visual signal that he is preparing food for
> them;
> and then the response is immediate.
>
> Dhu
> His finches do not have *any* emotional
> reaction at all, and the physical reaction they have does not occur
> until they receive the visual signal that he is preparing food for
> them;
> and then the response is immediate.
>
>
>
>
Spamßuster
Jun 19, 2013, 7:59:43 PM6/19/13
to
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Spamßuster
Jun 19, 2013, 8:03:24 PM6/19/13
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<leonar...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
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From: MarkA <nob...@nowhere.invalid>
Newsgroups:
alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.philosophy,sci.skeptic,alt.atheism,alt.education,can.politics
Subject: Re: anticipation in finches
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 19:47:09 -0400
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Spamßuster
Jun 19, 2013, 8:55:11 PM6/19/13
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Spamßuster
Jun 19, 2013, 8:55:38 PM6/19/13
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kni...@baawa.com
Jun 19, 2013, 11:23:15 PM6/19/13
to
On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 15:09:34 -0700 (PDT), SkyEyes <skye...@cox.net>
wrote:
>> � �If you think animals have human like emotions and can rationalize
emotional qualities to non-human animals.
You can kick a dog every day and it will still 'love' you because
you feed it. It's not love, it's a food source and a conditioned
response.
Cats purr. Clearly an animal response to being content. Is the cat
'happy' in the human sense? No. It's instinctive animal behavior.
There are some similarities of emotions with primates but it's
still not human. And since we are related to them it shouldn't a big
surprise.
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
wrote:
>> � �If you think animals have human like emotions and can rationalize
>> events, you are an idiot.
>
>Neuroscientists and animal behaviorists currently say that the average
>dog has the same degree of consciousness and sentience as a 3-year-old
>human child. Furthermore, mammals, birds, and reptiles have the same
>brain structures (particularly mammals and birds) that humans have,
>and that are known to play a part in the production of emotion. It's
>pretty silly to think that animals *don't* have emotions. And they
>can, quite clearly, rationalize to a degree. If you think they can't,
>you're not paying sufficient attention.
>
>It's nothing but hubris to claim that humans are the only animals that
>have emotions, and it stems from the same arguments that theists use
>to claim that humans have "souls" and animals do not.
I said 'human like' emotions. Humans have a tendency to give human
>
>Neuroscientists and animal behaviorists currently say that the average
>dog has the same degree of consciousness and sentience as a 3-year-old
>human child. Furthermore, mammals, birds, and reptiles have the same
>brain structures (particularly mammals and birds) that humans have,
>and that are known to play a part in the production of emotion. It's
>pretty silly to think that animals *don't* have emotions. And they
>can, quite clearly, rationalize to a degree. If you think they can't,
>you're not paying sufficient attention.
>
>It's nothing but hubris to claim that humans are the only animals that
>have emotions, and it stems from the same arguments that theists use
>to claim that humans have "souls" and animals do not.
emotional qualities to non-human animals.
You can kick a dog every day and it will still 'love' you because
you feed it. It's not love, it's a food source and a conditioned
response.
Cats purr. Clearly an animal response to being content. Is the cat
'happy' in the human sense? No. It's instinctive animal behavior.
There are some similarities of emotions with primates but it's
still not human. And since we are related to them it shouldn't a big
surprise.
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
SkyEyes
Jun 20, 2013, 1:40:25 AM6/20/13
to
On Jun 19, 8:23 pm, kni...@baawa.com wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 15:09:34 -0700 (PDT), SkyEyes <skyey...@cox.net>
was fashionable to denigrate the fact that animals have emotions back
in the '50s and '60s, but we know better now.
The dog will eventually turn on you.
contentment. Another reason cats purr is under stressful
circumstances, as a self-calming behavior. I've seen cats purr just
moments before dying, and believe me, it wasn't out of contentment.
> There are some similarities of emotions with primates but it's
> still not human. And since we are related to them it shouldn't a big
> surprise.
An emotion is an emotion. Stop trying to elevate human emotions to a
rarified plane; that old saw won't wash anymore. Animals feel
emotions very similar to what humans feel. We are not unique.
You have a very 20th century view of animal behavior. There are a
number of studies out there now that can bring you up to date, Steve.
I suggest that you catch yourself up on the newest, latest, and
greatest in the field.
Brenda
> On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 15:09:34 -0700 (PDT), SkyEyes <skyey...@cox.net>
> wrote:
>
> >> If you think animals have human like emotions and can rationalize
> >> events, you are an idiot.
>
> >Neuroscientists and animal behaviorists currently say that the average
> >dog has the same degree of consciousness and sentience as a 3-year-old
> >human child. Furthermore, mammals, birds, and reptiles have the same
> >brain structures (particularly mammals and birds) that humans have,
> >and that are known to play a part in the production of emotion. It's
> >pretty silly to think that animals *don't* have emotions. And they
> >can, quite clearly, rationalize to a degree. If you think they can't,
> >you're not paying sufficient attention.
>
> >It's nothing but hubris to claim that humans are the only animals that
> >have emotions, and it stems from the same arguments that theists use
> >to claim that humans have "souls" and animals do not.
>
> I said 'human like' emotions. Humans have a tendency to give human
> emotional qualities to non-human animals.
How is a human emotion different from an animal emotion? I know it
>
> >> If you think animals have human like emotions and can rationalize
> >> events, you are an idiot.
>
> >Neuroscientists and animal behaviorists currently say that the average
> >dog has the same degree of consciousness and sentience as a 3-year-old
> >human child. Furthermore, mammals, birds, and reptiles have the same
> >brain structures (particularly mammals and birds) that humans have,
> >and that are known to play a part in the production of emotion. It's
> >pretty silly to think that animals *don't* have emotions. And they
> >can, quite clearly, rationalize to a degree. If you think they can't,
> >you're not paying sufficient attention.
>
> >It's nothing but hubris to claim that humans are the only animals that
> >have emotions, and it stems from the same arguments that theists use
> >to claim that humans have "souls" and animals do not.
>
> I said 'human like' emotions. Humans have a tendency to give human
> emotional qualities to non-human animals.
was fashionable to denigrate the fact that animals have emotions back
in the '50s and '60s, but we know better now.
>
> You can kick a dog every day and it will still 'love' you because
> you feed it. It's not love, it's a food source and a conditioned
> response.
Then it *doesn't* "love" you. And by the way? You can't do that.
> You can kick a dog every day and it will still 'love' you because
> you feed it. It's not love, it's a food source and a conditioned
> response.
The dog will eventually turn on you.
>
> Cats purr. Clearly an animal response to being content. Is the cat
> 'happy' in the human sense? No. It's instinctive animal behavior.
Actually, cats purr for a variety of reasons, only one of which is
> Cats purr. Clearly an animal response to being content. Is the cat
> 'happy' in the human sense? No. It's instinctive animal behavior.
contentment. Another reason cats purr is under stressful
circumstances, as a self-calming behavior. I've seen cats purr just
moments before dying, and believe me, it wasn't out of contentment.
> There are some similarities of emotions with primates but it's
> still not human. And since we are related to them it shouldn't a big
> surprise.
rarified plane; that old saw won't wash anymore. Animals feel
emotions very similar to what humans feel. We are not unique.
You have a very 20th century view of animal behavior. There are a
number of studies out there now that can bring you up to date, Steve.
I suggest that you catch yourself up on the newest, latest, and
greatest in the field.
Brenda
George Plimpton
Jun 20, 2013, 1:48:32 AM6/20/13
to
On 6/19/2013 3:09 PM, SkyEyes wrote:
> On Jun 18, 8:12 pm, kni...@baawa.com wrote:
>> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:14:35 -0400, dh@. wrote:
>>> I feed mealworms to my finches a few times a week. When I begin the process
>>> of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes down to the
>>> area in anticipation. Sometimes the male joins her, meaning that he's also aware
>>> of and anticipating what's about to happen even though he doesn't always come in
>>> close. Sometimes I let the female come down and grab a worm, but sometimes not
>>> because her wings blow the litter around making a bit of a mess. Whether I let
>>> her or not though both birds definitely anticipate getting mealworms when they
>>> see me begin the process.
>>
>> It's anticipation by a conditioned signal. My cat always come when
>> he hears the can opener. It may be a can of beans or a can of cat
>> food.
>>
>> If you think animals have human like emotions and can rationalize
>> events, you are an idiot.
>
> Neuroscientists and animal behaviorists currently say that the average
> dog has the same degree of consciousness and sentience as a 3-year-old
> human child.
No, they don't.
> On Jun 18, 8:12 pm, kni...@baawa.com wrote:
>> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:14:35 -0400, dh@. wrote:
>>> I feed mealworms to my finches a few times a week. When I begin the process
>>> of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes down to the
>>> area in anticipation. Sometimes the male joins her, meaning that he's also aware
>>> of and anticipating what's about to happen even though he doesn't always come in
>>> close. Sometimes I let the female come down and grab a worm, but sometimes not
>>> because her wings blow the litter around making a bit of a mess. Whether I let
>>> her or not though both birds definitely anticipate getting mealworms when they
>>> see me begin the process.
>>
>> It's anticipation by a conditioned signal. My cat always come when
>> he hears the can opener. It may be a can of beans or a can of cat
>> food.
>>
>> If you think animals have human like emotions and can rationalize
>> events, you are an idiot.
>
> Neuroscientists and animal behaviorists currently say that the average
> dog has the same degree of consciousness and sentience as a 3-year-old
> human child.
George Plimpton
Jun 20, 2013, 1:57:22 AM6/20/13
to
On 6/19/2013 10:40 PM, SkyEyes wrote:
> On Jun 19, 8:23 pm, kni...@baawa.com wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 15:09:34 -0700 (PDT), SkyEyes <skyey...@cox.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> If you think animals have human like emotions and can rationalize
>>>> events, you are an idiot.
>>
>>> Neuroscientists and animal behaviorists currently say that the average
>>> dog has the same degree of consciousness and sentience as a 3-year-old
>>> human child. Furthermore, mammals, birds, and reptiles have the same
>>> brain structures (particularly mammals and birds) that humans have,
>>> and that are known to play a part in the production of emotion. It's
>>> pretty silly to think that animals *don't* have emotions. And they
>>> can, quite clearly, rationalize to a degree. If you think they can't,
>>> you're not paying sufficient attention.
>>
>>> It's nothing but hubris to claim that humans are the only animals that
>>> have emotions, and it stems from the same arguments that theists use
>>> to claim that humans have "souls" and animals do not.
>>
>> I said 'human like' emotions. Humans have a tendency to give human
>> emotional qualities to non-human animals.
>
> How is a human emotion different from an animal emotion? I know it
> was fashionable to denigrate the fact that animals have emotions back
> in the '50s and '60s, but we know better now.
No, you believe differently, but that's because of your blind religious
> On Jun 19, 8:23 pm, kni...@baawa.com wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 15:09:34 -0700 (PDT), SkyEyes <skyey...@cox.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> If you think animals have human like emotions and can rationalize
>>>> events, you are an idiot.
>>
>>> Neuroscientists and animal behaviorists currently say that the average
>>> dog has the same degree of consciousness and sentience as a 3-year-old
>>> human child. Furthermore, mammals, birds, and reptiles have the same
>>> brain structures (particularly mammals and birds) that humans have,
>>> and that are known to play a part in the production of emotion. It's
>>> pretty silly to think that animals *don't* have emotions. And they
>>> can, quite clearly, rationalize to a degree. If you think they can't,
>>> you're not paying sufficient attention.
>>
>>> It's nothing but hubris to claim that humans are the only animals that
>>> have emotions, and it stems from the same arguments that theists use
>>> to claim that humans have "souls" and animals do not.
>>
>> I said 'human like' emotions. Humans have a tendency to give human
>> emotional qualities to non-human animals.
>
> How is a human emotion different from an animal emotion? I know it
> was fashionable to denigrate the fact that animals have emotions back
> in the '50s and '60s, but we know better now.
faith.
No one ever said animals don't experience any emotions. The emotions
they experience are the very primitive and basic ones: fear, affection,
happiness. They do not experience complex emotions like remorse, envy,
contempt, Schadenfreude, pride. All of those complex emotions require a
degree of self awareness that animals lack.
>> You can kick a dog every day and it will still 'love' you because
>> you feed it. It's not love, it's a food source and a conditioned
>> response.
>
> Then it *doesn't* "love" you. And by the way? You can't do that.
> The dog will eventually turn on you.
I don't think you know fucky-doo about animals. You embrace some kind
of mystical bullshit about them, and that prevents you from acquiring
real knowledge.
>> There are some similarities of emotions with primates but it's
>> still not human. And since we are related to them it shouldn't a big
>> surprise.
>
> An emotion is an emotion.
> Stop trying to elevate human emotions to a
> rarified plane; that old saw won't wash anymore. Animals feel
> emotions very similar to what humans feel. We are not unique.
Your misanthropic beliefs are rooted in your bizarre religious views.
Jason
Jun 20, 2013, 5:00:28 PM6/20/13
to
In article <625ca$51c29cb8$414e828e$14...@EVERESTKC.NET>, George Plimpton
You must have never had a dog. They get excited when getting ready for a
walk. They get depressed when their favorite human goes to work. They get
excited when their favorite human comes home from work. My neighbor has a
German Shepard that suffers from anxiety.
walk. They get depressed when their favorite human goes to work. They get
excited when their favorite human comes home from work. My neighbor has a
German Shepard that suffers from anxiety.
George Plimpton
Jun 20, 2013, 5:15:45 PM6/20/13
to
not get depressed about being left. No dog does. The German shepherd
dog isn't exhibiting anxiety. It's just a nervous, high-strong dog;
plenty like it.
You're still missing the point. Animals can experience a few basic,
primitive emotions. They can't experience other, more complex emotions
because they lack the self awareness and the awareness of time, space
and social relations that people have. Take envy, for example. Animals
don't feel it. They might want the thing that another animal has, but
they do not envy the other animal. Beyond merely wanting the thing the
other person has, envy incorporates an element of thinking the other
person doesn't deserve to have it, while the person who doesn't have it
feels he deserves it more than the person who has it. Animals are
entirely incapable of thinking about undeserved benefits.
Dutch
Jun 20, 2013, 5:14:27 PM6/20/13
to
"Jason" <Ja...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Jason-20061...@66-53-210-94.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com...
or negative in response to various stimuli are also basic responses.
George Plimpton
Jun 20, 2013, 5:43:11 PM6/20/13
to
meaning into basic animal instincts than is really there. They *want*
to see something more.
Jeanne Douglas
Jun 20, 2013, 5:51:41 PM6/20/13
to
In article <jjKwt.21185$5w3....@newsfe03.iad>, "Dutch" <n...@email.com>
wrote:
This week's "Though the Wormhole" is entitled "How Do Aliens Think".
They use earth creatures as examples of alien thinking, including ant
colonies (a super-organism) and the octopus. They also discuss emotions
and how research now shows that emotions are absolutely essential to
intelligence. Highly recommended, whether you can find one of the
re-runs or On Demand or sciencechannel.com or wherever.
I also recommend last weeks's episode: "Can We Survive the Death of the
Sun?", which moves from the sun to the universe, and includes some
wonderful sfnal ideas that they speculate about with the known facts.
--
JD
"Osama Bin Laden is dead and GM is alive."--VP Joseph Biden
wrote:
They use earth creatures as examples of alien thinking, including ant
colonies (a super-organism) and the octopus. They also discuss emotions
and how research now shows that emotions are absolutely essential to
intelligence. Highly recommended, whether you can find one of the
re-runs or On Demand or sciencechannel.com or wherever.
I also recommend last weeks's episode: "Can We Survive the Death of the
Sun?", which moves from the sun to the universe, and includes some
wonderful sfnal ideas that they speculate about with the known facts.
--
JD
"Osama Bin Laden is dead and GM is alive."--VP Joseph Biden
dh
Jun 20, 2013, 6:13:27 PM6/20/13
to
On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 17:24:04 -0700, Goo wrote:
>On 6/18/2013 4:47 PM, MarkA wrote:
>> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:14:35 -0400, dh pointed out:
>It's not an
>emotion. The anticipation being discussed is the *emotional* state of a
>person contemplating an expected event.
Also finches and dogs and cats and hogs, etc......Goob.
>It's a completely different
>meaning of the word anticipation.
Anticipation is anticipation, Goo.
>Fuckwit Harrison is deliberately
>equivocating on the word. His finches do not have *any* emotional
thing as anticipation Goober. It's not and has nothing to do with it, Goo.
>On 6/18/2013 4:47 PM, MarkA wrote:
>> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:14:35 -0400, dh pointed out:
>>
>>> I feed mealworms to my finches a few times a week. When I begin the
>>> process
>>> of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes down
>>> to the area in anticipation. Sometimes the male joins her, meaning that
>>> he's also aware of and anticipating what's about to happen even though he
>>> doesn't always come in close. Sometimes I let the female come down and
>>> grab a worm, but sometimes not because her wings blow the litter around
>>> making a bit of a mess. Whether I let her or not though both birds
>>> definitely anticipate getting mealworms when they see me begin the
>>> process.
>>
>>> I feed mealworms to my finches a few times a week. When I begin the
>>> process
>>> of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes down
>>> to the area in anticipation. Sometimes the male joins her, meaning that
>>> he's also aware of and anticipating what's about to happen even though he
>>> doesn't always come in close. Sometimes I let the female come down and
>>> grab a worm, but sometimes not because her wings blow the litter around
>>> making a bit of a mess. Whether I let her or not though both birds
>>> definitely anticipate getting mealworms when they see me begin the
>>> process.
>>
>> When I'm putting my dog's food in a bowl (I'm always sure to make LOTS of
>> noise when doing so), she stands at her feeding spot, with drool dripping
>> out of her mouth.
>
>> noise when doing so), she stands at her feeding spot, with drool dripping
>> out of her mouth.
>
>That's nothing but a conditioned response to a signal.
The conditioned response is anticipation, Goo.
>It's not an
>emotion. The anticipation being discussed is the *emotional* state of a
>person contemplating an expected event.
>It's a completely different
>meaning of the word anticipation.
>Fuckwit Harrison is deliberately
>equivocating on the word. His finches do not have *any* emotional
>reaction at all, and the physical reaction they have does not occur
>until they receive the visual signal that he is preparing food for them;
>and then the response is immediate.
>
>until they receive the visual signal that he is preparing food for them;
>and then the response is immediate.
>
>A little child old enough to know the days of the week who is told on
>Monday that she will be taken to Disneyland on Saturday does not require
>any signal to begin to experience an emotional excitement - anticipation
>- on Friday afternoon.
You're trying to pretend that the ability to understand language is the same
>Monday that she will be taken to Disneyland on Saturday does not require
>any signal to begin to experience an emotional excitement - anticipation
>- on Friday afternoon.
thing as anticipation Goober. It's not and has nothing to do with it, Goo.
dh
Jun 20, 2013, 6:13:32 PM6/20/13
to
On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 20:12:55 -0700, kni...@baawa.com wrote:
>
>On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:14:35 -0400, dh@. wrote:
>
>> I feed mealworms to my finches a few times a week. When I begin the process
>>of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes down to the
>>area in anticipation. Sometimes the male joins her, meaning that he's also aware
>>of and anticipating what's about to happen even though he doesn't always come in
>>close. Sometimes I let the female come down and grab a worm, but sometimes not
>>because her wings blow the litter around making a bit of a mess. Whether I let
>>her or not though both birds definitely anticipate getting mealworms when they
>>see me begin the process.
>
with the doors and windows closed, but they only did it when I used the can
opener at the time of day when they were fed, not always.
> If you think animals have human like emotions
You have no idea which of their emotions are similar, which are stronger and
which are weaker. In fact by your reply here it seems clear you're not even
capable of considering it.
>and can rationalize
>events, you are an idiot.
What do you want people to think the ability to experience emotions has to
do with the ability to rationalize events, do you have any idea?
>
>On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:14:35 -0400, dh@. wrote:
>
>> I feed mealworms to my finches a few times a week. When I begin the process
>>of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes down to the
>>area in anticipation. Sometimes the male joins her, meaning that he's also aware
>>of and anticipating what's about to happen even though he doesn't always come in
>>close. Sometimes I let the female come down and grab a worm, but sometimes not
>>because her wings blow the litter around making a bit of a mess. Whether I let
>>her or not though both birds definitely anticipate getting mealworms when they
>>see me begin the process.
>
> It's anticipation by a conditioned signal. My cat always come when
>he hears the can opener. It may be a can of beans or a can of cat
>food.
My chickens began anticipating when they heard the can opener even in winter
>he hears the can opener. It may be a can of beans or a can of cat
>food.
with the doors and windows closed, but they only did it when I used the can
opener at the time of day when they were fed, not always.
> If you think animals have human like emotions
which are weaker. In fact by your reply here it seems clear you're not even
capable of considering it.
>and can rationalize
>events, you are an idiot.
do with the ability to rationalize events, do you have any idea?
dh
Jun 20, 2013, 6:13:39 PM6/20/13
to
On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 19:47:09 -0400, MarkA <nob...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:14:35 -0400, dh wrote:
>
>> I feed mealworms to my finches a few times a week. When I begin the
>> process
>> of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes down
>> to the area in anticipation. Sometimes the male joins her, meaning that
>> he's also aware of and anticipating what's about to happen even though he
>> doesn't always come in close. Sometimes I let the female come down and
>> grab a worm, but sometimes not because her wings blow the litter around
>> making a bit of a mess. Whether I let her or not though both birds
>> definitely anticipate getting mealworms when they see me begin the
>> process.
>
big part of it. He did it so long ago and it's so well known that it's a wonder
even someone as stupid and naive as Goo is clueless about it:
"The dog was restrained in a harness with its head held still so the tube would
not be ripped out. The researcher puffed meat powder into the dog's mouth to
start the digestive process. Dogs salivate ("slobber") when they eat, so the
meat powder stimulated lots of saliva. The saliva dripped out of the tube into a
beaker where it could be measured.
With a set-up like this, Pavlov probably could not help but notice that dogs
anticipated their meals. When Pavlov or an assistant entered the laboratory
carrying meat powder, the saliva began dripping out of the tube. Pavlov realized
this was significant. A biological reflex (salivation) was being modified by
something psychological, namely, anticipation."
http://www.intropsych.com/ch05_conditioning/pavlovs_dog.html
>On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:14:35 -0400, dh wrote:
>
>> I feed mealworms to my finches a few times a week. When I begin the
>> process
>> of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes down
>> to the area in anticipation. Sometimes the male joins her, meaning that
>> he's also aware of and anticipating what's about to happen even though he
>> doesn't always come in close. Sometimes I let the female come down and
>> grab a worm, but sometimes not because her wings blow the litter around
>> making a bit of a mess. Whether I let her or not though both birds
>> definitely anticipate getting mealworms when they see me begin the
>> process.
>
>When I'm putting my dog's food in a bowl (I'm always sure to make LOTS of
>noise when doing so), she stands at her feeding spot, with drool dripping
>out of her mouth.
Pavlov proved anticipation in dogs in a similar way, and salivation was a
>noise when doing so), she stands at her feeding spot, with drool dripping
>out of her mouth.
big part of it. He did it so long ago and it's so well known that it's a wonder
even someone as stupid and naive as Goo is clueless about it:
"The dog was restrained in a harness with its head held still so the tube would
not be ripped out. The researcher puffed meat powder into the dog's mouth to
start the digestive process. Dogs salivate ("slobber") when they eat, so the
meat powder stimulated lots of saliva. The saliva dripped out of the tube into a
beaker where it could be measured.
With a set-up like this, Pavlov probably could not help but notice that dogs
anticipated their meals. When Pavlov or an assistant entered the laboratory
carrying meat powder, the saliva began dripping out of the tube. Pavlov realized
this was significant. A biological reflex (salivation) was being modified by
something psychological, namely, anticipation."
http://www.intropsych.com/ch05_conditioning/pavlovs_dog.html
dh
Jun 20, 2013, 6:13:45 PM6/20/13
to
On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:41:39 -0700, Goo wrote:
>On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:14:35 -0400, dh@. wrote:
>
>> I feed mealworms to my finches a few times a week. When I begin the process
>>of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes down to the
>>area in anticipation. Sometimes the male joins her, meaning that he's also aware
>>of and anticipating what's about to happen even though he doesn't always come in
>>close. Sometimes I let the female come down and grab a worm, but sometimes not
>>because her wings blow the litter around making a bit of a mess. Whether I let
>>her or not though both birds definitely anticipate getting mealworms when they
>>see me begin the process.
>
>Nothing but conditioned response to a signal.
The conditioned response is anticipation Goob. STRONG anticipation, Goo.
>If you didn't enter the
>room and start doing it, she wouldn't come down.
That's because there would be nothing for her to anticipate yet, Goo.
>On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:14:35 -0400, dh@. wrote:
>
>> I feed mealworms to my finches a few times a week. When I begin the process
>>of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes down to the
>>area in anticipation. Sometimes the male joins her, meaning that he's also aware
>>of and anticipating what's about to happen even though he doesn't always come in
>>close. Sometimes I let the female come down and grab a worm, but sometimes not
>>because her wings blow the litter around making a bit of a mess. Whether I let
>>her or not though both birds definitely anticipate getting mealworms when they
>>see me begin the process.
>
The conditioned response is anticipation Goob. STRONG anticipation, Goo.
>If you didn't enter the
>room and start doing it, she wouldn't come down.
That's because there would be nothing for her to anticipate yet, Goo.
dh
Jun 20, 2013, 6:18:59 PM6/20/13
to
On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 22:40:25 -0700 (PDT), SkyEyes <skye...@cox.net> wrote:
>On Jun 19, 8:23 pm, kni...@baawa.com wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 15:09:34 -0700 (PDT), SkyEyes <skyey...@cox.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >> If you think animals have human like emotions and can rationalize
>> >> events, you are an idiot.
>>
>> >Neuroscientists and animal behaviorists currently say that the average
>> >dog has the same degree of consciousness and sentience as a 3-year-old
>> >human child. Furthermore, mammals, birds, and reptiles have the same
>> >brain structures (particularly mammals and birds) that humans have,
>> >and that are known to play a part in the production of emotion. It's
>> >pretty silly to think that animals *don't* have emotions. And they
>> >can, quite clearly, rationalize to a degree. If you think they can't,
>> >you're not paying sufficient attention.
>>
>> >It's nothing but hubris to claim that humans are the only animals that
>> >have emotions, and it stems from the same arguments that theists use
>> >to claim that humans have "souls" and animals do not.
>>
>> I said 'human like' emotions. Humans have a tendency to give human
>> emotional qualities to non-human animals.
>
>How is a human emotion different from an animal emotion? I know it
>was fashionable to denigrate the fact that animals have emotions back
>in the '50s and '60s, but we know better now.
Goo still thinks of animals in an old and outdated way. Part of that may
>On Jun 19, 8:23 pm, kni...@baawa.com wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 15:09:34 -0700 (PDT), SkyEyes <skyey...@cox.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >> If you think animals have human like emotions and can rationalize
>> >> events, you are an idiot.
>>
>> >Neuroscientists and animal behaviorists currently say that the average
>> >dog has the same degree of consciousness and sentience as a 3-year-old
>> >human child. Furthermore, mammals, birds, and reptiles have the same
>> >brain structures (particularly mammals and birds) that humans have,
>> >and that are known to play a part in the production of emotion. It's
>> >pretty silly to think that animals *don't* have emotions. And they
>> >can, quite clearly, rationalize to a degree. If you think they can't,
>> >you're not paying sufficient attention.
>>
>> >It's nothing but hubris to claim that humans are the only animals that
>> >have emotions, and it stems from the same arguments that theists use
>> >to claim that humans have "souls" and animals do not.
>>
>> I said 'human like' emotions. Humans have a tendency to give human
>> emotional qualities to non-human animals.
>
>How is a human emotion different from an animal emotion? I know it
>was fashionable to denigrate the fact that animals have emotions back
>in the '50s and '60s, but we know better now.
well be because of the fact that Goo has never had any real experience around
animals except for a cat or something, and it's obvious that he didn't learn
anything from what little experience he has had.
>> You can kick a dog every day and it will still 'love' you because
>> you feed it. It's not love, it's a food source and a conditioned
>> response.
>
>Then it *doesn't* "love" you. And by the way? You can't do that.
>The dog will eventually turn on you.
>>
>> Cats purr. Clearly an animal response to being content. Is the cat
>> 'happy' in the human sense? No. It's instinctive animal behavior.
>
>Actually, cats purr for a variety of reasons, only one of which is
>contentment. Another reason cats purr is under stressful
>circumstances, as a self-calming behavior. I've seen cats purr just
>moments before dying, and believe me, it wasn't out of contentment.
>
>> There are some similarities of emotions with primates but it's
>> still not human. And since we are related to them it shouldn't a big
>> surprise.
>
>An emotion is an emotion. Stop trying to elevate human emotions to a
>rarified plane; that old saw won't wash anymore. Animals feel
>emotions very similar to what humans feel. We are not unique.
>
>You have a very 20th century view of animal behavior.
the topic:
"Animals do not have a sense of insult." - Goo
"No non-human animals experience the emotion of anticipation" - Goo
"Dogs NEVER anticipate, nor do cats, or cattle, or
any other animal you've ever encountered." - Goo
"Animals do not experience frustration." - Goo
"Animals cannot be or feel disappointed." - Goo
"Non human animals experience neither pride nor
disappointment. They don't have the mental ability
to feel either." - Goo
"Darwin, a sentimental person, was projecting. He
saw something that wasn't there. He was, in a way,
hallucinating." - Goo
"The dog didn't do what Darwin said. His statement of
the "changes in behavior" is not reliable." - Goo
"Anticipation requires language." - Goo
"No animals anticipate." - Goo
"Animals do not anticipate, Fuckwit. That requires language-dependent
thought." - Goo
"human-only anticipation" - Goo
"Dogs, cats, cattle, almost all animals "lower" than
the great apes have no sense of self." - Goo
"They are not aware that they can see. " - Goo
"They are *not* aware that they can smell." - Goo
dh
Jun 20, 2013, 6:21:51 PM6/20/13
to
awareness Goob. Your lame attempt at providing one only showed that animals
don't understand the concept of REFLECTION, NOT that they have no sense of self
awareness, Goo.
George Plimpton
Jun 20, 2013, 7:14:50 PM6/20/13
to
On 6/20/2013 3:13 PM, Fuckwit David Harrison - *Goo* - stupid,
illiterate cracker and convicted felon, defeated entirely in 1999 and
doing nothing but wasting time ever since, lied:
>> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:14:35 -0400, Fuckwit David Harrison - *Goo* - stupid, illiterate cracker and convicted felon, defeated entirely in 1999 and doing nothing but wasting time ever since, lied:
animal does.
You know you're lying, *Goo*.
illiterate cracker and convicted felon, defeated entirely in 1999 and
doing nothing but wasting time ever since, lied:
>> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:14:35 -0400, Fuckwit David Harrison - *Goo* - stupid, illiterate cracker and convicted felon, defeated entirely in 1999 and doing nothing but wasting time ever since, lied:
>>
>>> I feed mealworms to my finches a few times a week. When I begin the process
>>> of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes down to the
>>> area in anticipation. Sometimes the male joins her, meaning that he's also aware
>>> of and anticipating what's about to happen even though he doesn't always come in
>>> close. Sometimes I let the female come down and grab a worm, but sometimes not
>>> because her wings blow the litter around making a bit of a mess. Whether I let
>>> her or not though both birds definitely anticipate getting mealworms when they
>>> see me begin the process.
>>
>> It's anticipation by a conditioned signal. My cat always come when
>> he hears the can opener. It may be a can of beans or a can of cat
>> food.
>
> My chickens began anticipating
They do not experience the emotion of anticipation, *Goo*. No non-human
>>> I feed mealworms to my finches a few times a week. When I begin the process
>>> of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes down to the
>>> area in anticipation. Sometimes the male joins her, meaning that he's also aware
>>> of and anticipating what's about to happen even though he doesn't always come in
>>> close. Sometimes I let the female come down and grab a worm, but sometimes not
>>> because her wings blow the litter around making a bit of a mess. Whether I let
>>> her or not though both birds definitely anticipate getting mealworms when they
>>> see me begin the process.
>>
>> It's anticipation by a conditioned signal. My cat always come when
>> he hears the can opener. It may be a can of beans or a can of cat
>> food.
>
> My chickens began anticipating
animal does.
You know you're lying, *Goo*.
George Plimpton
Jun 20, 2013, 7:14:51 PM6/20/13
to
On 6/20/2013 3:13 PM, Fuckwit David Harrison - *Goo* - stupid,
illiterate cracker and convicted felon, defeated entirely in 1999 and
doing nothing but wasting time ever since, lied:
illiterate cracker and convicted felon, defeated entirely in 1999 and
doing nothing but wasting time ever since, lied:
> On 6/18/2013 5:24 PM, George Plimpton wrote:
>> On 6/18/2013 4:47 PM, MarkA wrote:
>>> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:14:35 -0400, Fuckwit David Harrison - *Goo* - stupid,
>> On 6/18/2013 4:47 PM, MarkA wrote:
>>> illiterate cracker and convicted felon, defeated entirely in 1999 and
>>> doing nothing but wasting time ever since, lied:
>>>
>>> doing nothing but wasting time ever since, lied:
>>>
>>>> I feed mealworms to my finches a few times a week. When I begin the
>>>> process
>>>> of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes
>>>> down
>>>> to the area in anticipation. Sometimes the male joins her, meaning that
>>>> he's also aware of and anticipating what's about to happen even
>>>> though he
>>>> doesn't always come in close. Sometimes I let the female come down and
>>>> grab a worm, but sometimes not because her wings blow the litter around
>>>> making a bit of a mess. Whether I let her or not though both birds
>>>> definitely anticipate getting mealworms when they see me begin the
>>>> process.
>>>
>>> When I'm putting my dog's food in a bowl (I'm always sure to make LOTS of
>>> noise when doing so), she stands at her feeding spot, with drool dripping
>>> out of her mouth.
>>
>> That's nothing but a conditioned response to a signal.
>
> The conditioned response is anticipation
No.
>>>> process
>>>> of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes
>>>> down
>>>> to the area in anticipation. Sometimes the male joins her, meaning that
>>>> he's also aware of and anticipating what's about to happen even
>>>> though he
>>>> doesn't always come in close. Sometimes I let the female come down and
>>>> grab a worm, but sometimes not because her wings blow the litter around
>>>> making a bit of a mess. Whether I let her or not though both birds
>>>> definitely anticipate getting mealworms when they see me begin the
>>>> process.
>>>
>>> When I'm putting my dog's food in a bowl (I'm always sure to make LOTS of
>>> noise when doing so), she stands at her feeding spot, with drool dripping
>>> out of her mouth.
>>
>> That's nothing but a conditioned response to a signal.
>
> The conditioned response is anticipation
>> It's not an
>> emotion. The anticipation being discussed is the *emotional* state of a
>> person contemplating an expected event.
>
> Also finches and dogs and cats and hogs
*Goo*.
>> It's a completely different
>> meaning of the word anticipation.
>
> Anticipation is anticipation
equivocate between them. You fail, of course - I'm here to stop you.
>> Fuckwit Harrison is deliberately
>> equivocating on the word. His finches do not have *any* emotional
>> reaction at all, and the physical reaction they have does not occur
>> until they receive the visual signal that he is preparing food for them;
>> and then the response is immediate.
>>
>> A little child old enough to know the days of the week who is told on
>> Monday that she will be taken to Disneyland on Saturday does not require
>> any signal to begin to experience an emotional excitement - anticipation
>> - on Friday afternoon.
>
> You're trying to pretend that
of anticipation. Non-human animals cannot.
George Plimpton
Jun 20, 2013, 7:15:02 PM6/20/13
to
On 6/20/2013 3:21 PM, Fuckwit David Harrison - *Goo* - stupid,
I and many others have, *Goo*.
illiterate cracker and convicted felon, defeated entirely in 1999 and
doing nothing but wasting time ever since, lied:
doing nothing but wasting time ever since, lied:
George Plimpton
Jun 20, 2013, 7:15:02 PM6/20/13
to
On 6/20/2013 3:13 PM, Fuckwit David Harrison - *Goo* - stupid,
>> On 6/18/2013 3:14 PM, Fuckwit David Harrison - *Goo* - stupid,
>> If you didn't enter the
>> room and start doing it, she wouldn't come down.
>
> That's because
That's because there's no signal, *Goo*. Conditioned response to a
signal is *not* anticipation, *Goo*.
illiterate cracker and convicted felon, defeated entirely in 1999 and
doing nothing but wasting time ever since, lied:
> On 6/18/2013 3:41 PM, George Plimpton wrote:
doing nothing but wasting time ever since, lied:
>> On 6/18/2013 3:14 PM, Fuckwit David Harrison - *Goo* - stupid,
>> illiterate cracker and convicted felon, defeated entirely in 1999 and
>> doing nothing but wasting time ever since, lied:
>>
>>
>> doing nothing but wasting time ever since, lied:
>>
>>
>>> I feed mealworms to my finches a few times a week. When I begin
>>> the process
>>> of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes
>>> down to the
>>> area in anticipation.
>>
>>> the process
>>> of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes
>>> down to the
>>> area in anticipation.
>>
>> Nothing but conditioned response to a signal.
>>
>> Finches do not anticipate.
>>
>
> The conditioned response is anticipation
No.
> The conditioned response is anticipation
>> If you didn't enter the
>> room and start doing it, she wouldn't come down.
>
> That's because
signal is *not* anticipation, *Goo*.
George Plimpton
Jun 20, 2013, 7:15:03 PM6/20/13
to
On 6/20/2013 3:13 PM, Fuckwit David Harrison - *Goo* - stupid,
illiterate cracker and convicted felon, defeated entirely in 1999 and
doing nothing but wasting time ever since, lied:
illiterate cracker and convicted felon, defeated entirely in 1999 and
doing nothing but wasting time ever since, lied:
> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 19:47:09 -0400, MarkA <nob...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:14:35 -0400, Fuckwit David Harrison - *Goo* - stupid, illiterate cracker and convicted felon, defeated entirely in 1999 and doing nothing but wasting time ever since, lied:
>
>>
>>> I feed mealworms to my finches a few times a week. When I begin the
>>> process
>>> of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes down
>>> to the area in anticipation. Sometimes the male joins her, meaning that
>>> he's also aware of and anticipating what's about to happen even though he
>>> doesn't always come in close. Sometimes I let the female come down and
>>> grab a worm, but sometimes not because her wings blow the litter around
>>> making a bit of a mess. Whether I let her or not though both birds
>>> definitely anticipate getting mealworms when they see me begin the
>>> process.
>>
>> When I'm putting my dog's food in a bowl (I'm always sure to make LOTS of
>> noise when doing so), she stands at her feeding spot, with drool dripping
>> out of her mouth.
>
> Pavlov proved anticipation in dogs
No, he did not, *Goo*.
>>> I feed mealworms to my finches a few times a week. When I begin the
>>> process
>>> of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes down
>>> to the area in anticipation. Sometimes the male joins her, meaning that
>>> he's also aware of and anticipating what's about to happen even though he
>>> doesn't always come in close. Sometimes I let the female come down and
>>> grab a worm, but sometimes not because her wings blow the litter around
>>> making a bit of a mess. Whether I let her or not though both birds
>>> definitely anticipate getting mealworms when they see me begin the
>>> process.
>>
>> When I'm putting my dog's food in a bowl (I'm always sure to make LOTS of
>> noise when doing so), she stands at her feeding spot, with drool dripping
>> out of her mouth.
>
> Pavlov proved anticipation in dogs
Jason
Jun 20, 2013, 8:45:54 PM6/20/13
to
In article <77ba8$51c373d5$414e828e$18...@EVERESTKC.NET>, George Plimpton
Since you have a dog, you should know they experiece happieness and
sadness. The happieness is even fully displayed when they start wagging
their tails. It appears to be a natural response to pleasure or
happieness.
I had to watch the German Shepard while the owner was going shopping. The
dog whined like a little child and got very excited when the dog heard her
master's pickup truck pull into the drive way.
sadness. The happieness is even fully displayed when they start wagging
their tails. It appears to be a natural response to pleasure or
happieness.
I had to watch the German Shepard while the owner was going shopping. The
dog whined like a little child and got very excited when the dog heard her
master's pickup truck pull into the drive way.
Dutch
Jun 20, 2013, 8:51:25 PM6/20/13
to
news:Jason-20061...@66-53-216-255.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com...
Reacting with positive excitement at a positive cue is purely a Pavlovian
response. It represents a very basic emotion not unlike a "flight or fight"
response to a threat.
.
response. It represents a very basic emotion not unlike a "flight or fight"
response to a threat.
.
Jason
Jun 20, 2013, 9:34:18 PM6/20/13
to
also suffer from such things as separation anxiety--just like my
neighbor's german sheapard dog. Three year old kids also get excited when
their mother or father comes home from work--just like a dog.
George Plimpton
Jun 20, 2013, 11:57:17 PM6/20/13
to
animals experience the simple and basic emotions such as happiness,
anger, fear. They *don't* experience more complex emotions such as
remorse, embarrassment, gratitude, bitterness, envy...or anticipation.
George Plimpton
Jun 21, 2013, 12:00:40 AM6/21/13
to
has reasoning ability far beyond any dog's.
> They also suffer from such things as separation anxiety--just like my
> neighbor's german sheapard dog. Three year old kids also get excited when
> their mother or father comes home from work--just like a dog.
returning home even *without* any signals. They aren't merely reacting
to the signal of the parents' arrival, as a dog does; the children can
exhibit anticipatory happy excitement at the *prospect* of the parents'
arrival, something no dog or any other animal can do.
George Plimpton
Jun 21, 2013, 12:06:17 AM6/21/13
to
"Anticipation is the process of imaginative speculation about the future."
Finches do not have the power of imaginative speculation.
Finches do not have the power of imaginative speculation.
Dreamer In Colore
Jun 21, 2013, 12:28:15 AM6/21/13
to
On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 21:06:17 -0700, George Plimpton <geo...@si.not>
wrote:
>"Anticipation is the process of imaginative speculation about the future."
>
>Finches do not have the power of imaginative speculation.
That's only one definition of anticipation.
Ever seen a dog wait expectantly before you feed it? That's
anticipation you're seeing.
How about a cat, playing with a toy? Also anticipation.
All animals anticipate. It's a reflex action that helps them survive.
Please think more before you post things like this; you're not helping
your cause.
Cheers,
Dreamer
AA 2306
wrote:
>"Anticipation is the process of imaginative speculation about the future."
>
>Finches do not have the power of imaginative speculation.
Ever seen a dog wait expectantly before you feed it? That's
anticipation you're seeing.
How about a cat, playing with a toy? Also anticipation.
All animals anticipate. It's a reflex action that helps them survive.
Please think more before you post things like this; you're not helping
your cause.
Cheers,
Dreamer
AA 2306
Dutch
Jun 21, 2013, 12:28:48 AM6/21/13
to
"Jason" <Ja...@nospam.com> wrote
> As someone said, dogs are a lot like three year old normal children. They
> also suffer from such things as separation anxiety--just like my
> neighbor's german sheapard dog. Three year old kids also get excited when
> their mother or father comes home from work--just like a dog.
I really don't see what useful purpose is served by comparing a three year
old human child and a dog. The human child has within it the capacity to
reach for the stars, the dogs basic responses are fixed for life. Dogs have
amazing senses, physical abilities and instincts that we can't come close
to.
> As someone said, dogs are a lot like three year old normal children. They
> also suffer from such things as separation anxiety--just like my
> neighbor's german sheapard dog. Three year old kids also get excited when
> their mother or father comes home from work--just like a dog.
old human child and a dog. The human child has within it the capacity to
reach for the stars, the dogs basic responses are fixed for life. Dogs have
amazing senses, physical abilities and instincts that we can't come close
to.
Spamßuster
Jun 22, 2013, 12:59:55 AM6/22/13
to
==========================================================
KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
==========================================================
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Subject: Re: LACK OF anticipation in finches
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Sylvia Else
Jun 21, 2013, 5:01:28 AM6/21/13
to
On 19/06/2013 8:41 AM, George Plimpton wrote:
> On 6/18/2013 3:14 PM, Fuckwit David Harrison - *Goo* - stupid,
>
Is either the statement "Finches anticipate", or its converse,
falsifiable? Indeed, are the corresponding statements about humans? This
looks like angels on pinheads stuff.
Sylvia.
> On 6/18/2013 3:14 PM, Fuckwit David Harrison - *Goo* - stupid,
> illiterate cracker and convicted felon, defeated entirely in 1999 and
> doing nothing but wasting time ever since, lied:
>
>
> doing nothing but wasting time ever since, lied:
>
>
>> I feed mealworms to my finches a few times a week. When I begin
>> the process
>> of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes
>> down to the
>> area in anticipation.
>
> Nothing but conditioned response to a signal. If you didn't enter the
>> the process
>> of sifting the worms out of the litter my female society finch comes
>> down to the
>> area in anticipation.
>
> room and start doing it, she wouldn't come down.
>
> Finches do not anticipate.
>
>
Is either the statement "Finches anticipate", or its converse,
falsifiable? Indeed, are the corresponding statements about humans? This
looks like angels on pinheads stuff.
Sylvia.
George Plimpton
Jun 21, 2013, 9:50:23 AM6/21/13
to
On 6/20/2013 9:28 PM, Dreamer In Colore wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 21:06:17 -0700, George Plimpton <geo...@si.not>
> wrote:
>
>> "Anticipation is the process of imaginative speculation about the future."
>>
>> Finches do not have the power of imaginative speculation.
>
> That's only one definition of anticipation.
It is the *ONLY* relevant definition when we're talking about
> wrote:
>
>> "Anticipation is the process of imaginative speculation about the future."
>>
>> Finches do not have the power of imaginative speculation.
>
> That's only one definition of anticipation.
anticipation as an emotion. That's the whole fucking point, you idiot.
> Ever seen a dog wait expectantly before you feed it? That's
> anticipation you're seeing.
Dreamer In Colore
Jun 21, 2013, 10:04:42 AM6/21/13
to
On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 06:50:23 -0700, George Plimpton <geo...@si.not>
convenient definition suits your narrow point of view.... but it's not
the only relevant definition.
You haven't done a good job of making your case... which kind of makes
you the idiot.
>
>> Ever seen a dog wait expectantly before you feed it? That's
>> anticipation you're seeing.
>
>That's not an emotion.
Sure it is. Emotions are neurophysical reactions to given situations.
Love, pain, hunger, fear.... animals experience all of those... and
guess what? Humans experience them exactly the same way because we're
animals too.
wrote:
>On 6/20/2013 9:28 PM, Dreamer In Colore wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 21:06:17 -0700, George Plimpton <geo...@si.not>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> "Anticipation is the process of imaginative speculation about the future."
>>>
>>> Finches do not have the power of imaginative speculation.
>>
>> That's only one definition of anticipation.
>
>It is the *ONLY* relevant definition when we're talking about
>anticipation as an emotion. That's the whole fucking point, you idiot.
>
No, it isn't. You might want to restrict it down to whatever
>On 6/20/2013 9:28 PM, Dreamer In Colore wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 21:06:17 -0700, George Plimpton <geo...@si.not>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> "Anticipation is the process of imaginative speculation about the future."
>>>
>>> Finches do not have the power of imaginative speculation.
>>
>> That's only one definition of anticipation.
>
>It is the *ONLY* relevant definition when we're talking about
>anticipation as an emotion. That's the whole fucking point, you idiot.
>
convenient definition suits your narrow point of view.... but it's not
the only relevant definition.
You haven't done a good job of making your case... which kind of makes
you the idiot.
>
>> Ever seen a dog wait expectantly before you feed it? That's
>> anticipation you're seeing.
>
>That's not an emotion.
Love, pain, hunger, fear.... animals experience all of those... and
guess what? Humans experience them exactly the same way because we're
animals too.
George Plimpton
Jun 21, 2013, 10:11:13 AM6/21/13
to
On 6/21/2013 7:04 AM, Dreamer In Colore wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 06:50:23 -0700, George Plimpton <geo...@si.not>
> wrote:
>
>> On 6/20/2013 9:28 PM, Dreamer In Colore wrote:
>>> On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 21:06:17 -0700, George Plimpton <geo...@si.not>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Anticipation is the process of imaginative speculation about the future."
>>>>
>>>> Finches do not have the power of imaginative speculation.
>>>
>>> That's only one definition of anticipation.
>>
>> It is the *ONLY* relevant definition when we're talking about
>> anticipation as an emotion. That's the whole fucking point, you idiot.
>>
>
> No, it isn't.
Yes, it is *THE* definition of the *emotion* of anticipation - something
> On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 06:50:23 -0700, George Plimpton <geo...@si.not>
> wrote:
>
>> On 6/20/2013 9:28 PM, Dreamer In Colore wrote:
>>> On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 21:06:17 -0700, George Plimpton <geo...@si.not>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Anticipation is the process of imaginative speculation about the future."
>>>>
>>>> Finches do not have the power of imaginative speculation.
>>>
>>> That's only one definition of anticipation.
>>
>> It is the *ONLY* relevant definition when we're talking about
>> anticipation as an emotion. That's the whole fucking point, you idiot.
>>
>
> No, it isn't.
only humans experience, and something that goes far beyond a mere
expectation - *always* in response to a signal - that something is about
to happen. When you dreamy idiots start blabbering about a dog
"anticipating" that it is about to be fed, you mean merely that it
*expects* to be fed because it sees its owner doing something that
signals meal time. The dog is not experiencing the emotion of
anticipation; this is pure signal-response. There is no imagination
involved.
>>
>>> Ever seen a dog wait expectantly before you feed it? That's
>>> anticipation you're seeing.
>>
>> That's not an emotion.
>
> Sure it is.
Dreamer In Colore
Jun 21, 2013, 10:38:34 AM6/21/13
to
On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 07:11:13 -0700, George Plimpton <geo...@si.not>
Again, you haven't made a good case for your position.
Humans don't experience emotions in a vacuum. There's always a cause
for it, so the response is exactly that... a response. There's nothing
particularly special about a human emotional context, because we're
ANIMALS. Highly-evolved animals to be sure, but animals nonetheless.
Just because you articulate things better than a dog or cat does not
mean that the neurophysiology is fundamentally different.
Bringing imagination into the equation is just a conceit. It doesn't
magnify the emotion or alter it into something special just because
that's what you want it to represent.
Humans don't experience emotions in a vacuum. There's always a cause
for it, so the response is exactly that... a response. There's nothing
particularly special about a human emotional context, because we're
ANIMALS. Highly-evolved animals to be sure, but animals nonetheless.
Just because you articulate things better than a dog or cat does not
mean that the neurophysiology is fundamentally different.
Bringing imagination into the equation is just a conceit. It doesn't
magnify the emotion or alter it into something special just because
that's what you want it to represent.
George Plimpton
Jun 21, 2013, 10:57:14 AM6/21/13
to
> Humans don't experience emotions in a vacuum.
> There's always a cause
> for it, so the response is exactly that... a response.
> There's nothing particularly special about a human emotional context,
that *only* humans can experience. Here is one: pride in the
accomplishments of others, such as a parent might feel over his grown
child obtaining a Ph.D in mathematics. Ask Rupert about what his
parents told him when he did that.
Dreamer In Colore
Jun 21, 2013, 11:27:33 AM6/21/13
to
On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 07:57:14 -0700, George Plimpton <geo...@si.not>
Seems to me that you want to have your cake and eat it too.
On the one hand, you say that finches lack anticipation, when you can
see them anticipate things right in my back yard. On the other hand,
you say that only humans experience what you call "complex ones'..
There's plenty of evidence that dolphins and whales experience
"complex emotions"... but this is a dumb argument because both of us
have agreed that human beings are more evolved.
You didn't stick to the original point...
On the one hand, you say that finches lack anticipation, when you can
see them anticipate things right in my back yard. On the other hand,
you say that only humans experience what you call "complex ones'..
There's plenty of evidence that dolphins and whales experience
"complex emotions"... but this is a dumb argument because both of us
have agreed that human beings are more evolved.
You didn't stick to the original point...
George Plimpton
Jun 21, 2013, 11:37:45 AM6/21/13
to
> On the one hand, you say that finches lack anticipation, when you can
> see them anticipate things right in my back yard.
emotional component. I have been very clear about this. If you don't
understand it, you have a comprehension problem.
One meaning of anticipation is mere expectation. If I stand in front of
you and I hold a ball up off the ground and drop it, you anticipate -
you expect - that it will fall to the ground. There is no emotion in
that. You are reacting immediately to a signal. If I ask you what you
want to eat and you say "a ham sandwich" and I then get the ingredients
out and start to make a ham sandwich, you anticipate - you expect - that
a ham sandwich is being prepared for you. That is a completely
different meaning of anticipation.
> On the other hand,
> you say that only humans experience what you call "complex ones'..
>
> There's plenty of evidence that dolphins and whales experience
> "complex emotions"
cognitive ability - their raw intelligence - but very little about their
emotional capacity.
Dreamer In Colore
Jun 21, 2013, 12:18:18 PM6/21/13
to
On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 08:37:45 -0700, George Plimpton <geo...@si.not>
I went back and read the original thread. In that thread, the poster
made the observation that finches were experiencing an emotional
response to the act of mealworms about to appear.
You've spun slightly past that to indicate that humans are capable of
higher emotional responses, and I'm not arguing that, because humans
have more evolved nervous systems and higher-order thinking than
finches do.
You're arguing that humans are beyond animals, and I'm saying that
basic human emotions aren't any different than the ones experienced by
animals.
We ought to stop there, because I have no desire to argue about two
different things.
As for the cetacean emotional capacity:
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/whales-in-love-like-humans-their-brains-are-wired-for-romance-427863.html
and a more generalized article:
http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/animals/stories/do-dolphins-mourn-their-dead
I am pretty sure we're in agreement on the basics... but not on some
of the details. Agree to disagree?
Cheers,
Dreamer
AA 2306
made the observation that finches were experiencing an emotional
response to the act of mealworms about to appear.
You've spun slightly past that to indicate that humans are capable of
higher emotional responses, and I'm not arguing that, because humans
have more evolved nervous systems and higher-order thinking than
finches do.
You're arguing that humans are beyond animals, and I'm saying that
basic human emotions aren't any different than the ones experienced by
animals.
We ought to stop there, because I have no desire to argue about two
different things.
As for the cetacean emotional capacity:
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/whales-in-love-like-humans-their-brains-are-wired-for-romance-427863.html
and a more generalized article:
http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/animals/stories/do-dolphins-mourn-their-dead
I am pretty sure we're in agreement on the basics... but not on some
of the details. Agree to disagree?
Cheers,
Dreamer
AA 2306
George Plimpton
Jun 21, 2013, 12:43:31 PM6/21/13
to
equivocating on the meaning of anticipation. He was giving an example
of an animal anticipating an event, immediately in response to a signal,
purely in the sense of expecting the event to happen - without any
emotional dimension to it at all.
You have far too little history and context of this travesty of a debate
to be able to appreciate how this thread started, and I don't have the
time to give a full history of it. The original poster, Fuckwit David
Harrison aka "The Goober" or "Goo", is an extremely dishonest,
uneducated and stupid person living near Atlanta, Georgia who has been
trying with 100% futility over the last 14 years to argue with "animal
rights activists" regarding their wish to see an end to livestock
husbandry. It is worth noting that I am *not* an "ara", and in fact I
have argued logically and factually against the "ar" proposition.
However, Fuckwit's basis for arguing against "ar" is a complete
nonsense. The essence of his worthless argument against "ar" is that if
"aras" were to succeed in getting people to stop eating meat, thereby
eliminating the demand for meat and thus the demand for livestock at
all, then "billions of future farm animals" would never exist and thus
never "get to experience life." Fuckwit wishes to pretend that the
"experiencing of life" by farm animals is a good thing in and of itself,
and that by wanting to prevent that, "aras" are committing some kind of
immoral act. Of course, Fuckwit cannot say *why* the animals' "getting
to experience life" is a good thing; he just asserts that it is.
Strangely, Fuckwit has some beliefs about animals and the emotions they
can experience that are *much* closer to the beliefs of "aras" than they
are to the beliefs of most who are opposed to "ar". This whole
discussion of what emotions animals are capable of experiencing is an
offshoot of his overall absurd and nonsensical belief about what's wrong
with "ar."
> You've spun slightly past that to indicate that humans are capable of
> higher emotional responses, and I'm not arguing that, because humans
> have more evolved nervous systems and higher-order thinking than
> finches do.
>
> You're arguing that humans are beyond animals, and I'm saying that
> basic human emotions aren't any different than the ones experienced by
> animals.
are talking about the emotions, such as the emotion of anticipation,
that are precisely the ones that derive from that very higher-order
thinking you mentioned - the higher-order thinking that animals lack,
which is the reason they aren't capable of experiencing those more
complex emotions.
Dreamer In Colore
Jun 21, 2013, 12:55:02 PM6/21/13
to
On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 09:43:31 -0700, George Plimpton <geo...@si.not>
Thanks for the backstory, and the explanation. I apologize for
sticking my nose in without doing suitable research... my only
reasonable excuse is that it's way too easy to post when things get
heated.
Cheers,
Dreamer
AA 2306
sticking my nose in without doing suitable research... my only
reasonable excuse is that it's way too easy to post when things get
heated.
Cheers,
Dreamer
AA 2306
George Plimpton
Jun 21, 2013, 3:40:21 PM6/21/13
to
"Anticipation [the emotion] is the process of imaginative speculation
about the future."
Finches do not have the power of imaginative speculation, and therefore
they do not experience the emotion of anticipation. Fuckwit was not
talking about the emotion of anticipation when he said his finches
"anticipate" being fed when Fuckwit starts fooling around with the meal
worms; what he was talking about was the simple conditioned response of
his finches expecting to be fed.
Contrary to Fuckwit's simple cracker-speak statement that "anticipation
is anticipation", we see instead that the word anticipation has multiple
meanings. One meaning is merely an expectation that something will
happen. That's the sense in which finches may "anticipate" being fed.
Another meaning is a "process of imaginative speculation about" the
event which is expected to happen. Finches do not engage in this
process. No non-human animal does.
about the future."
Finches do not have the power of imaginative speculation, and therefore
they do not experience the emotion of anticipation. Fuckwit was not
talking about the emotion of anticipation when he said his finches
"anticipate" being fed when Fuckwit starts fooling around with the meal
worms; what he was talking about was the simple conditioned response of
his finches expecting to be fed.
Contrary to Fuckwit's simple cracker-speak statement that "anticipation
is anticipation", we see instead that the word anticipation has multiple
meanings. One meaning is merely an expectation that something will
happen. That's the sense in which finches may "anticipate" being fed.
Another meaning is a "process of imaginative speculation about" the
event which is expected to happen. Finches do not engage in this
process. No non-human animal does.
Homer Stille Cummings
Jun 21, 2013, 6:18:24 PM6/21/13
to
On 6/21/2013 9:59 PM, Karen Gordon, the HIV-oozing whore of Nanaimo,
stamped her foot and shrieked:
>
> ==========================================================
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Shut your fucking yap, Karen, before I shut it for you.
stamped her foot and shrieked:
>
> ==========================================================
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Homer Stille Cummings
Jun 21, 2013, 6:18:57 PM6/21/13
to
On 6/21/2013 9:59 PM, Karen Gordon, the HIV-oozing whore of Nanaimo,
stamped her foot and shrieked:
>
stamped her foot and shrieked:
>
> ==========================================================
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Shut your fucking yap, Karen, before I shut it for you.
>
>
Spamßuster
Jun 22, 2013, 6:45:40 PM6/22/13
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Spamßuster
Jun 22, 2013, 6:46:37 PM6/22/13
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Spamßuster
Jun 22, 2013, 6:47:22 PM6/22/13
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On 6/21/2013 7:38 AM, Dreamer In Colore wrote:
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From: Dreamer In Colore <dreamer...@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.philosophy,sci.skeptic,alt.atheism,alt.education,can.politics
Subject: Re: LACK OF anticipation in finches
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Subject: Re: LACK OF anticipation in finches
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References: <fjm1s8d6e8h3siik3...@4ax.com>
<88ab8$51c3d43a$414e828e$27...@EVERESTKC.NET>
<til7s8p5ki6lg9fld...@4ax.com>
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Spamßuster
Jun 22, 2013, 6:48:35 PM6/22/13
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On 6/21/2013 9:55 AM, Dreamer In Colore wrote:
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From: Dreamer In Colore <dreamer...@hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: LACK OF anticipation in finches
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From: Dreamer In Colore <dreamer...@hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: LACK OF anticipation in finches
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References: <til7s8p5ki6lg9fld...@4ax.com>
<5bc57$51c45d31$414e828e$26...@EVERESTKC.NET>
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Spamßuster
Jun 22, 2013, 6:49:34 PM6/22/13
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On 6/21/2013 9:18 AM, Dreamer In Colore wrote:
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From: Dreamer In Colore <dreamer...@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.philosophy,sci.skeptic,alt.atheism,alt.education,can.politics
Subject: Re: LACK OF anticipation in finches
Reply-To: dreamer...@hotmail.com
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From: Dreamer In Colore <dreamer...@hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: LACK OF anticipation in finches
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References: <fjm1s8d6e8h3siik3...@4ax.com>
<88ab8$51c3d43a$414e828e$27...@EVERESTKC.NET>
<til7s8p5ki6lg9fld...@4ax.com>
<5bc57$51c45d31$414e828e$26...@EVERESTKC.NET>
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Spamßuster
Jun 22, 2013, 6:50:18 PM6/22/13
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Delvin Benet
Jun 21, 2013, 6:56:35 PM6/21/13
to
On 6/22/2013 3:45 PM, Karen Gordon, HIV-oozing whore and goddamned
fucking impotent net nanny of Nanaimo, BC, wasted time:
fucking impotent net nanny of Nanaimo, BC, wasted time:
>
> ==========================================================
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Fuck off, Karen.
> ==========================================================
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Delvin Benet
Jun 21, 2013, 6:56:38 PM6/21/13
to
On 6/22/2013 3:46 PM, Karen Gordon, HIV-oozing whore and goddamned
fucking impotent net nanny of Nanaimo, BC, wasted time:
>
>
> ==========================================================
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Fuck off, Karen.
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Delvin Benet
Jun 21, 2013, 6:56:38 PM6/21/13
to
On 6/22/2013 3:47 PM, Karen Gordon, HIV-oozing whore and goddamned
fucking impotent net nanny of Nanaimo, BC, wasted time:
>
>
> ==========================================================
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Fuck off, Karen
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Delvin Benet
Jun 21, 2013, 6:56:39 PM6/21/13
to
On 6/22/2013 3:48 PM, Karen Gordon, HIV-oozing whore and goddamned
fucking impotent net nanny of Nanaimo, BC, wasted time:
>
>
> ==========================================================
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Fuck off, Karen
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Delvin Benet
Jun 21, 2013, 6:56:39 PM6/21/13
to
On 6/22/2013 3:49 PM, Karen Gordon, HIV-oozing whore and goddamned
fucking impotent net nanny of Nanaimo, BC, wasted time:
>
>
> ==========================================================
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Fuck off, Karen
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Delvin Benet
Jun 21, 2013, 6:56:40 PM6/21/13
to
On 6/22/2013 3:50 PM, Karen Gordon, HIV-oozing whore and goddamned
fucking impotent net nanny of Nanaimo, BC, wasted time:
>
>
> ==========================================================
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Fuck off, Karen
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Delvin Benet
Jun 21, 2013, 6:56:41 PM6/21/13
to
On 6/22/2013 3:51 PM, Karen Gordon, HIV-oozing whore and goddamned
fucking impotent net nanny of Nanaimo, BC, wasted time:
>
>
> ==========================================================
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Fuck off, Karen
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Spamßuster
Jun 22, 2013, 7:55:15 PM6/22/13
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<geo...@si.not>
AKA
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mrbawana2u <mrbawan...@yahoo.com>
No_He_Can_Not <nohecan...@mail.com>
Noddin Dog <Then-Destroy-Everyth...@Talk-n-dog.com>
None4U <Non...@jam.rr.com>
None4U <nos...@nospam.none>
Oath Keeper <lnew...@gmail.com>
Old Bald John Howard <Bollo...@GWLIE.org>
OneBigAssMistakeAmerica
Oxley <ox...@yahoo.com>
pajamasmedia <rander3...@gmail.com>
Palin <e2ollo...@GWLIE.org>
Patriot <Bollo...@GWLIE.org>
Patriot Games <patriotga...@nambla.org>
Peter Muehlbauer <muehba...@jam.rr.com>
Phil <clayno...@gmail.com>
Pontius Pilate <Bollo...@GWLIE.org>
President O Debacle <GOPedoph...@yahoo.com>
Preston Mulligan <prest...@yahoo.com>
pyjamarama <pyjamaram...@yahoo.com>
pyotr filipivich <Amhearst@ph...@mindspring.comyahoo.com>
pyotr filipivich <pyotrfilipiv...@yahoo.com>
Rastus <ras...@yahoo.com>
Realist <no...@nowhere.com>
ReichTurd <doctor.ya...@gmail.com>
Remailer <ccicer...@rogers.com>
Rich <rander3...@gmail.com>
Rich <rander3...@gmail.com>
RichA <rander3...@gmail.com>
Richard Hanson <Richard_Han...@GaryRosellesAsshole.com>
Right Wing Scum Are Vermin <rander3...@gmail.com>
RIGHTIST FAGGOTS ARE SUBHUMAN VERMIN <rander3...@gmail.com>
Rightists are vermin pedophiles who rape children
Ross John <rossj...@yahoo.com>
Sage2 <isdom...@gmail.com>
SaPeIsMa <SaPeI...@HotMail.com>
SaPeIsMa <SaPeI...@HotMail.com>
"Seneca" <lucre...@outlook.com>
Sir John Howard AC WSCMoF <fag...@yahoo.com>
Straightarrow <hoofhearte...@yahoo.com>
Super Realist <Bollo...@GWLIE.org>
The Real Truth <realtr...@GWLIE.org>
The Reverend Jesus Christ Our Lord <Bollo...@GWLIE.org>
The Zionist <theslapd...@yahoo.com>
Topaz <alexva...@hitler.org>
Trace <er...@yahoo.ca>
Tracey12 <tracey12em...@gmail.com>
Travis <sulliv...@live.ca>
tunderbar <Bollo...@GWLIE.org>
tv <tjwilson6...@gmail.com>
vict0r <rander3...@gmail.com>
Violent Chicago Obamathug <Obamat...@WhiteHouse.gov>
western auto <western-a...@GWLIE.org>
Western Voice <rander3...@gmail.com>
White Western Voice <doctor.ya...@gmail.com>
Winston_Smith <not_republi...@bogus.net>
___________________________________________________________
Path: not-for-mail
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 15:56:35 -0700
From: Delvin Benet <DB@nbc.nýt>
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Spamßuster
Jun 22, 2013, 7:57:32 PM6/22/13
to
==========================================================
KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
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Spamßuster
Jun 22, 2013, 7:59:04 PM6/22/13
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KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
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Spamßuster
Jun 22, 2013, 7:59:50 PM6/22/13
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KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
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Spamßuster
Jun 22, 2013, 8:00:22 PM6/22/13
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KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
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Spamßuster
Jun 22, 2013, 8:00:57 PM6/22/13
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KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
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Spamßuster
Jun 22, 2013, 8:01:39 PM6/22/13
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KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
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Delvin Benet
Jun 21, 2013, 9:03:39 PM6/21/13
to
On 6/22/2013 3:51 PM, Karen Gordon, HIV-oozing whore and goddamned
fucking impotent net nanny of Nanaimo, BC, wasted time:
>
fucking impotent net nanny of Nanaimo, BC, wasted time:
>
> ==========================================================
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Fuck off, Karen
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Delvin Benet
Jun 21, 2013, 9:03:41 PM6/21/13
to
On 6/22/2013 3:50 PM, Karen Gordon, HIV-oozing whore and goddamned
fucking impotent net nanny of Nanaimo, BC, wasted time:
>
>
> ==========================================================
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Fuck off, Karen
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Delvin Benet
Jun 21, 2013, 9:03:42 PM6/21/13
to
On 6/22/2013 3:49 PM, Karen Gordon, HIV-oozing whore and goddamned
fucking impotent net nanny of Nanaimo, BC, wasted time:
>
>
> ==========================================================
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Fuck off, Karen
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Delvin Benet
Jun 21, 2013, 9:03:43 PM6/21/13
to
On 6/22/2013 3:48 PM, Karen Gordon, HIV-oozing whore and goddamned
fucking impotent net nanny of Nanaimo, BC, wasted time:
>
>
> ==========================================================
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Fuck off, Karen
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Delvin Benet
Jun 21, 2013, 9:03:44 PM6/21/13
to
On 6/22/2013 3:47 PM, Karen Gordon, HIV-oozing whore and goddamned
fucking impotent net nanny of Nanaimo, BC, wasted time:
>
>
> ==========================================================
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Fuck off, Karen
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Delvin Benet
Jun 21, 2013, 9:03:46 PM6/21/13
to
On 6/22/2013 3:46 PM, Karen Gordon, HIV-oozing whore and goddamned
fucking impotent net nanny of Nanaimo, BC, wasted time:
>
>
> ==========================================================
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Fuck off, Karen.
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Delvin Benet
Jun 21, 2013, 9:03:47 PM6/21/13
to
On 6/22/2013 3:45 PM, Karen Gordon, HIV-oozing whore and goddamned
fucking impotent net nanny of Nanaimo, BC, wasted time:
>
> ==========================================================
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Fuck off, Karen.
>
>
> ==========================================================
>
> KEEP IT THE HELL OUT OF CANADIAN NEWSGROUPS, THANKS
>
> ==========================================================
Fuck off, Karen.
>
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