Clusterfuck in El Salvador

[o'Mahoney]

https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/2021/09/07/el-salvador-bitcoin-day-how-it-went/

"Today’s the big day of good news for Bitcoin! I live-tweeted the
day’s events in a massive thread.

Chivo Wallet has launched! It then turned right thirty feet above the
launch pad, and crashed into a lake.

Having been there and done that myself in information technology, I’ve
rarely seen a project set up for such obvious failure from the start,
by upper management who think the critical details are just a matter
of shouting at people loudly enough, as the El Salvador Bitcoin
project.

I’m pretty sure Chivo must not be subject to the regulations on
Bitcoin wallets set out by the Banco Central de Reserva (BCR) —
because the BCR regulations are relatively sensible, and there is
absolutely no way this clown show could possibly meet the BCR
regulations."

And *this* is an entire sovereign nation? Taking on a crypto for the
average, third-world, uneducated and illiterate country as a legal
tender?

Good lord. Maybe it should be called BitCoke...

https://insightcrime.org/investigations/how-an-ms13-clique-in-el-salvador-took-a-cocaine-corridor/

[one]

o'Mahoney wrote, in p'art:

>"Today’s the big day of good news for Bitcoin! I live-tweeted the
>day’s events in a massive thread.
>
>Chivo Wallet has launched! It then turned right thirty feet above the
>launch pad, and crashed into a lake.

Referring to a Taoist philosophy seeing
as how this was cross-posted to a group there
was once upon a time a Tao Te Ching number eighty.

In those days, keeping track of finance was done knot
by knot tied on a rope so to speak and one could imagine
a virtual ruler of a virtual village saying, "Forget about the rope.

Hencefroth we shall count on ripples in a pond."

Suddenly one of the villagers threw a pebble which
landed in the middle of the river which fed the pond
and it wasn't long before some of the ripples reached
a bank and the rest is virtual history.

http://www.mobilewords.pro/Tao/chap80.htm#top

- coins of realms vary ...

[aye]

one replied in writing:

Aye, in those days the people spoke without words
and knew without knowing how to do and not to do every
noun and verb they used without using. Images formed until one
day of the Great Daze a sun rose which was a rose like most
except this was a star like no other could utter.

And from then on the people stood having under
standing them a form of ground that was solid enough
until one day mud, yes mud of all earth and earthy like material
began to spreak quickly and the sand which their castles had
bins built on began to be affected by the waves of a notion.

- possibilities the reigned for a spell ...

[Noah Sombrero]

Perfect move for a nation where the mob rules, and ordinary folks are
climbing over walls and barbed wire 1000 miles north of there, if they
can still find some, to escape. You know what, the rush of gangsters
looking for a new way to launder money was a good bet for the big guys
looking to sell at 52,000. Too bad the tech guys didn't plan for that
extra load.

The pitch by the presi-baby was that this would be a good way for El
Salvadorans to send money home from the us more cheaply. Snicker.
Scuse me, belly laugh coming.

>https://insightcrime.org/investigations/how-an-ms13-clique-in-el-salvador-took-a-cocaine-corridor/

Advice for ordinary investors: go away, stay away, do not touch.
Invest in salvadoran cucumbers if you dearly love El Salvador. You
don't want a bunch of gangsters coming after you when they discover
that the bitcoin they bought from you for 52,000 can only be sold for
much lower. Bad scene. Regardless of how it goes down, best bet is
to not be playing pretty with the mob, any mob anywhere. As ansa
said, the house always wins.
--
Noah Sombrero

[one]

Noah wrote:

>Advice for ordinary investors:

There have been said to be three great
unknowns: Water for the fish, air for birds
and some sort of a Tao for people seeing who
can't see without being able to be out of an element.

Like a fish out of water
Like a bird with clipped wings
Investors who invest in 10,000 things

Bears in the woulds
Bulls on their horns

Vorpal swords carry no wait,
that can't be left standing there
in a corner where children might play.

https://terebess.hu/english/tao/gia.html#Kap74

<< begin quote from a TTC >>

Seventy-four

If men are not afraid to die,
It is no avail to threaten them with death.

If men live in constant fear of dying,
And if breaking the law means that a man will be killed,
Who will dare to break the law?

There is always an official executioner.
If you try to take his place,
It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood.
If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter,
you will only hurt your hand.

<< end of quote >>

Hands up and hands down.
What connects all the groups in a thread.
Dreams, philosophy, psyche. Usenet.

- there's a sign post in: The Twilight Zone ... Cheers!

[mite]

aye rote goat saying:

>one replied in writing:
>>o'Mahoney wrote, in p'art:
>>
>>>"Today’s the big day of good news for Bitcoin! I live-tweeted the
>>>day’s events in a massive thread.
>>>
>>>Chivo Wallet has launched! It then turned right thirty feet above the
>>>launch pad, and crashed into a lake.

Once upon a time, a two
dimensional world appeared to
be round except in reality spherical too
it was at a point and at basically all of them as wells.

One of the beings on that world using higher forms
of mathematics knew how the world's lines formed
patterns which they called pie having slices there of.

They knew without much if any doubt how a line cross
cutting a higher dimension of three was exactly one half
of the circumference of their plane as plain to sea saw.

And so their pie was equal to 1/2 and seamed
as rational as any number system was to the surface
dwellers on that world as they bit their coins of their realm.

>>Referring to a Taoist philosophy seeing

... snip ...

>>- coins of realms vary ...

Lao Tzu was and is the Supreme Being, the Lord, given
a system in which, of which, via which alchemy deeps
ended using mercury, a messenger god, cinnabar fields.

Distilling the liquid at room temperature element evidence
showed how ran it did and sat it did on many tables turning.

Aye, the exoteric run amokers ran to the eye-lands where
seeking immortality, beyond their mortal frames they did
frame their reference points pointing like a chef, Cook Ting.

>Aye, in those days the people spoke without words
>and knew without knowing how to do and not to do every
>noun and verb they used without using. Images formed until one
>day of the Great Daze a sun rose which was a rose like most
>except this was a star like no other could utter.

One mite wondered, did Carlos ever manage to find, to know,
beyond shadows of his garage door opening where frogs were
known to jump out of a box and worms turned without turning
a can opener the cans of the lids they deep ended up on.

>And from then on the people stood having under
>standing them a form of ground that was solid enough
>until one day mud, yes mud of all earth and earthy like material
>began to spreak quickly and the sand which their castles had
>bins built on began to be affected by the waves of a notion.
>
>- possibilities the reigned for a spell ...

- given a: Thrice Ever Zone ...

[Noah Sombrero]

On Wed, 08 Sep 2021 06:59:41 -0700, one <be...@apolka.sign> wrote:

>Noah wrote:
>
>>Advice for ordinary investors:
>
>There have been said to be three great
>unknowns: Water for the fish, air for birds
>and some sort of a Tao for people seeing who
>can't see without being able to be out of an element.
>
>Like a fish out of water

Lung fish? Ostriches? Penguins?

>Like a bird with clipped wings
>Investors who invest in 10,000 things
>
>Bears in the woulds
>Bulls on their horns
>
>Vorpal swords carry no wait,
>that can't be left standing there
>in a corner where children might play.
>
>https://terebess.hu/english/tao/gia.html#Kap74
>
><< begin quote from a TTC >>
>
>Seventy-four
>
>If men are not afraid to die,
>It is no avail to threaten them with death.
>
>If men live in constant fear of dying,
>And if breaking the law means that a man will be killed,
>Who will dare to break the law?

A common argument for the death penalty these days. Unfortunately,
people who commit crimes plan to get away with it, so the penalty is
not considered.

>There is always an official executioner.
>If you try to take his place,
>It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood.
>If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter,
>you will only hurt your hand.

And the response, you cannot punish people like this without becoming
like them.

Both are true.

><< end of quote >>
>
>Hands up and hands down.
>What connects all the groups in a thread.
>Dreams, philosophy, psyche. Usenet.
>
>- there's a sign post in: The Twilight Zone ... Cheers!

--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

On Wed, 08 Sep 2021 06:59:41 -0700, one <be...@apolka.sign> wrote:

"Seventy-six

A man is born gentle and weak.
At his death he is hard and stiff.
Green plants are tender and filled with sap.
At their death they are withered and dry.

Therefore the stiff and unbending is the disciple of death.
The gentle and yielding is the disciple of life.

Thus an army without flexibility never wins a battle.
A tree that is unbending is easily broken.

The hard and strong will fall.
The soft and weak will overcome."

This is not yet certain. Current score hard 1, soft 0.

How long do we need to wait for the softies to prevail?
--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

On Wed, 08 Sep 2021 06:59:41 -0700, one <be...@apolka.sign> wrote:

"The Tao of heaven is to take from those who have too much and give to
those who do not have enough.
Man's way is different.
He takes from those who do not have enough and give to those who
already have too much."

So it is, so it has always been, ever since humans undertook
to...something. What?

"What man has more than enough and gives it to the world?"

What man declines to take more than enough, leaves the extra for
others so he need not appear to be generous.

"Only the man of Tao.

Therefore the sage works without recognition.
He achieves what has to be done without dwelling on it.
He does not try to show his knowledge."

The supply of sages seems to be running a little low.
--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

On Wed, 08 Sep 2021 06:59:41 -0700, one <be...@apolka.sign> wrote:

"He who takes upon himself the humiliation of the people is fit to
rule them."

Yet, he will seek not to.

"He who takes upon himself the country's disasters deserves to be king
of the universe."

Yet, he will have no interest in that.

"The truth often sounds paradoxical."

Yet, not all paradoxical soundings are true.
--
Noah Sombrero

[o'Mahoney]

On Wed, 08 Sep 2021 09:11:03 -0400, Noah Sombrero <fed...@fea.st>
wrote:

Couldn't have said it better myself


--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[o'Mahoney]

On Wed, 08 Sep 2021 10:33:24 -0400, Noah Sombrero <fed...@fea.st>
wrote:

It's called the Dunning-Kruger effect.

>
>>There is always an official executioner.
>>If you try to take his place,
>>It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood.
>>If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter,
>>you will only hurt your hand.
>
>And the response, you cannot punish people like this without becoming
>like them.

Correct. Eye for an eye makes the whole world blind etc etc

>
>Both are true.
>
>><< end of quote >>
>>
>>Hands up and hands down.
>>What connects all the groups in a thread.
>>Dreams, philosophy, psyche. Usenet.
>>
>>- there's a sign post in: The Twilight Zone ... Cheers!

--

[mite]

o'Mahoney wrote:
> Noah wrote:

>> Lao Tzu wrote:
>>
>>><< begin quote from a TTC >>
>>>
>>>Seventy-four
>>>
>>>If men are not afraid to die,
>>>It is no avail to threaten them with death.
>>>
>>>If men live in constant fear of dying,
>>>And if breaking the law means that a man will be killed,
>>>Who will dare to break the law?
>>
>>A common argument for the death penalty these days. Unfortunately,
>>people who commit crimes plan to get away with it, so the penalty is
>>not considered.

Hypothetical, contingent statements, if-then,
presuppose their antecedents.

>It's called the Dunning-Kruger effect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

Estimates vary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_statistics

Getting aWay with an activity does not entail that Way always.

>>>There is always an official executioner.
>>>If you try to take his place,
>>>It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood.
>>>If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter,
>>>you will only hurt your hand.
>>
>>And the response, you cannot punish people like this without becoming
>>like them.
>
>Correct. Eye for an eye makes the whole world blind etc etc

Interpretations can be curious.

If a so-called individual is afraid or is not afraid, then ... .

If an expert is able to perform a task, then ... .

If ..., then ... .

If one is able to swim as a fish, fly as a bird
and remain on the Road, then three great unknowns
could be said to remain unknown.

To know without knowing ...

>>>>Advice for ordinary investors:

Know the element, the market, the risk.
Don't fork out more than can be afforded.

- two be lost

[one]

Noah wrote:

>"Seventy-six
>
>A man is born gentle and weak.
>At his death he is hard and stiff.
>Green plants are tender and filled with sap.
>At their death they are withered and dry.
>
>Therefore the stiff and unbending is the disciple of death.
>The gentle and yielding is the disciple of life.
>
>Thus an army without flexibility never wins a battle.
>A tree that is unbending is easily broken.
>
>The hard and strong will fall.
>The soft and weak will overcome."
>
>This is not yet certain. Current score hard 1, soft 0.

To what are you referring exactly?

>How long do we need to wait for the softies to prevail?

Water is, at time, a metaphor.

Said to be the softest, as a liquid, it wears away solid rock.
Be as water can be a saying said for the saying.
There is a Zone, there is the Flow.
A river of thought may go.

As ice, water is able to break solid rock.
Yet prior to freezing, the same water was liquid.
It gets between spaces in rock at times.
Water knows without knowing how.

As a glacier,
water is able to carve mountains, valleys
and moves large boulders without lifting any hands.

- speed varies ...

[one]

Noah wrote:

>"The Tao of heaven is to take from those who have too much and give to
>those who do not have enough.
>Man's way is different.
>He takes from those who do not have enough and give to those who
>already have too much."
>
>So it is, so it has always been, ever since humans undertook
>to...something. What?
>
>"What man has more than enough and gives it to the world?"
>
>What man declines to take more than enough, leaves the extra for
>others so he need not appear to be generous.
>
>"Only the man of Tao.
>
>Therefore the sage works without recognition.
>He achieves what has to be done without dwelling on it.
>He does not try to show his knowledge."
>
>The supply of sages seems to be running a little low.

Assuming sages exist, perhaps they are invisible.

People who want to, get in on the action, to make a quick buck,
might jump on a virtual bus going to El Salvador or open a door
to some other currency and exchange their paper, metal or
a number of numbers for their time being being time beings.

The invisible men and women of a pale blue dot
give without recognition. Hence they go unseen.

Most folk are of a Tao and are as fish and birds.

They go without going, do without doing and know
without knowing how much air they breathe nor if air
is actually breathing them as water flows through them.

Once they get on a virtual money train
they have left Tao station and may be on track
thinking they are approaching a vanishing point and
just how long the ride is, is always beyond the horizon.

- their ship has sailed in search of a rainbow's end ...

[one]

Noah wrote:

>"He who takes upon himself the humiliation of the people is fit to
>rule them."
>
>Yet, he will seek not to.
>
>"He who takes upon himself the country's disasters deserves to be king
>of the universe."
>
>Yet, he will have no interest in that.
>
>"The truth often sounds paradoxical."
>
>Yet, not all paradoxical soundings are true.

Some pointers point.

- getting a gist can be grist for a mind-mill tilting ...

[Noah Sombrero]

On Thu, 09 Sep 2021 04:13:53 -0700, one <be...@apolka.sign> wrote:

>Noah wrote:
>
>>"Seventy-six
>>
>>A man is born gentle and weak.
>>At his death he is hard and stiff.
>>Green plants are tender and filled with sap.
>>At their death they are withered and dry.
>>
>>Therefore the stiff and unbending is the disciple of death.
>>The gentle and yielding is the disciple of life.
>>
>>Thus an army without flexibility never wins a battle.
>>A tree that is unbending is easily broken.
>>
>>The hard and strong will fall.
>>The soft and weak will overcome."
>>
>>This is not yet certain. Current score hard 1, soft 0.
>
>To what are you referring exactly?

The game where it is suggested that the soft will eventually overcome.

>>How long do we need to wait for the softies to prevail?
>
>Water is, at time, a metaphor.
>
>Said to be the softest, as a liquid, it wears away solid rock.
>Be as water can be a saying said for the saying.
>There is a Zone, there is the Flow.
>A river of thought may go.
>
>As ice, water is able to break solid rock.
>Yet prior to freezing, the same water was liquid.
>It gets between spaces in rock at times.
>Water knows without knowing how.
>
>As a glacier,
>water is able to carve mountains, valleys
>and moves large boulders without lifting any hands.

Right, but that is a metaphor, not an the actual reality we are
invited to consider.

>- speed varies ...

How old is the tao? How many millennia might one wait for this
overcoming? Might it seem that such times are beyond human scale, at
least, and so not particularly relevant to one human's experience at
any point in time?
--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

On Thu, 09 Sep 2021 04:28:32 -0700, one <be...@apolka.sign> wrote:

>Noah wrote:
>
>>"The Tao of heaven is to take from those who have too much and give to
>>those who do not have enough.
>>Man's way is different.
>>He takes from those who do not have enough and give to those who
>>already have too much."
>>
>>So it is, so it has always been, ever since humans undertook
>>to...something. What?
>>
>>"What man has more than enough and gives it to the world?"
>>
>>What man declines to take more than enough, leaves the extra for
>>others so he need not appear to be generous.
>>
>>"Only the man of Tao.
>>
>>Therefore the sage works without recognition.
>>He achieves what has to be done without dwelling on it.
>>He does not try to show his knowledge."
>>
>>The supply of sages seems to be running a little low.
>
>Assuming sages exist, perhaps they are invisible.

In even greater shortage then.

>People who want to, get in on the action, to make a quick buck,
>might jump on a virtual bus going to El Salvador or open a door
>to some other currency and exchange their paper, metal or
>a number of numbers for their time being being time beings.
>
>The invisible men and women of a pale blue dot
>give without recognition. Hence they go unseen.

The receiving is also unseen. Not of much use then?

>Most folk are of a Tao and are as fish and birds.
>
>They go without going, do without doing and know
>without knowing how much air they breathe nor if air
>is actually breathing them as water flows through them.

In literal terms, they do not need to know these things. What is it
that, in literal terms, they do need to know?

>Once they get on a virtual money train
>they have left Tao station and may be on track
>thinking they are approaching a vanishing point and
>just how long the ride is, is always beyond the horizon.
>
>- their ship has sailed in search of a rainbow's end ...

The tao does seem to consider a rainbow's end to be something more
real than the metaphor. And the having of too much is of consequence,
as is not having enough, of a rainbow one would assume in metaphorical
terms. A very tangible rainbow then.

>"The Tao of heaven is to take from those who have too much and give to
>those who do not have enough.
>Man's way is different.
>He takes from those who do not have enough and give to those who
>already have too much."

I think you abstract the literalness of the tao a little more than the
sages intended. Not that such abstractions might not be valid in a
different tradition or in your own personal cosmology.
--
Noah Sombrero

[one]

Noah wrote:

>one wrote:
>>Noah wrote:
>>
>>>"Seventy-six
>>>
>>>A man is born gentle and weak.
>>>At his death he is hard and stiff.
>>>Green plants are tender and filled with sap.
>>>At their death they are withered and dry.
>>>
>>>Therefore the stiff and unbending is the disciple of death.
>>>The gentle and yielding is the disciple of life.
>>>
>>>Thus an army without flexibility never wins a battle.
>>>A tree that is unbending is easily broken.
>>>
>>>The hard and strong will fall.
>>>The soft and weak will overcome."
>>>
>>>This is not yet certain. Current score hard 1, soft 0.
>>
>>To what are you referring exactly?
>
>The game where it is suggested that the soft will eventually overcome.

Reality, assuming such a critter exists,
can be said to be multi-dimensional. Realities are able
to include myths such as El Salvador and/or money.

Soft people may take such creations as countries, metals
and utter other such nouns as being their reality or realities.

Hard people know with the stroke of a pen a country is made by
or divided against its elves. Hard and soft often fight for a flag,
a symbol, an idea. A saying can be said of being in boats, both
the same and different for a spell.

>>>How long do we need to wait for the softies to prevail?
>>
>>Water is, at time, a metaphor.
>>
>>Said to be the softest, as a liquid, it wears away solid rock.
>>Be as water can be a saying said for the saying.
>>There is a Zone, there is the Flow.
>>A river of thought may go.
>>
>>As ice, water is able to break solid rock.
>>Yet prior to freezing, the same water was liquid.
>>It gets between spaces in rock at times.
>>Water knows without knowing how.
>>
>>As a glacier,
>>water is able to carve mountains, valleys
>>and moves large boulders without lifting any hands.
>
>Right, but that is a metaphor, not an the actual reality we are
>invited to consider.
>
>>- speed varies ...
>
>How old is the tao?

Many Tao can be said to be and not to be.
Older than old, beyond time, space and spacetime is Being.
Ontologically, prior to old and new, Existence exists as a given.

Prior to Being is Nonbeing, according to a line in a verse
of a batch of sayings, lines and verses versus some other
sayings some people might utter.

> How many millennia might one wait for this overcoming?

Many time beings may never have an eye
for an eye to see how now can be: the present.

How to be present as the present unfolds.
How now is eternal, not mortal. How two is, duality is
from the one what was and emerges from a Tao.

> Might it seem that such times are beyond human scale, at
>least, and so not particularly relevant to one human's experience at
>any point in time?

- deep ends on the so-called human ...

[Noah Sombrero]

On Thu, 09 Sep 2021 07:33:29 -0400, Noah Sombrero <fed...@fea.st>
wrote:

Perhaps it would clarify the situation a little if the metaphor were
extended a little to include the constant rising of rocks from the
deep as well as the constant wearing away of rocks already risen. Thus
na has the very old aqppalachian mountains and sa has the somewhat new
andes mountains.

The old wears away, the new arises, and nothing changes for the
welfare of humans generally. So where is the comfort suggested by the
tao?
--
Noah Sombrero

[one]

Noah wrote:

>one wrote:
>>Noah wrote:
>>
>>>"The Tao of heaven is to take from those who have too much and give to
>>>those who do not have enough.
>>>Man's way is different.
>>>He takes from those who do not have enough and give to those who
>>>already have too much."
>>>
>>>So it is, so it has always been, ever since humans undertook
>>>to...something. What?
>>>
>>>"What man has more than enough and gives it to the world?"
>>>
>>>What man declines to take more than enough, leaves the extra for
>>>others so he need not appear to be generous.
>>>
>>>"Only the man of Tao.
>>>
>>>Therefore the sage works without recognition.
>>>He achieves what has to be done without dwelling on it.
>>>He does not try to show his knowledge."
>>>
>>>The supply of sages seems to be running a little low.
>>
>>Assuming sages exist, perhaps they are invisible.
>
>In even greater shortage then.

Reminds me of inches and how without any, work stops.
Can't work today said the construction boss. Ran out of inches.
The ruler that rules might measures. A shortage of inches, eh.

>>People who want to, get in on the action, to make a quick buck,
>>might jump on a virtual bus going to El Salvador or open a door
>>to some other currency and exchange their paper, metal or
>>a number of numbers for their time being being time beings.
>>
>>The invisible men and women of a pale blue dot
>>give without recognition. Hence they go unseen.
>
>The receiving is also unseen. Not of much use then?

To be without use, a gnarly tree is iconic.
Being of use, a straight tree is cut down in its prime.

>>Most folk are of a Tao and are as fish and birds.
>>
>>They go without going, do without doing and know
>>without knowing how much air they breathe nor if air
>>is actually breathing them as water flows through them.
>
>In literal terms, they do not need to know these things. What is it
>that, in literal terms, they do need to know?

Literally, some punch their time clocks.
Hitting the alarm, off to work they go.

Being excellet at what they do, like Cook Ting,
having vorpal swords in hand they are handy to have
at the job-site. Cutting, hammering, building buildings,
cooking and cleaning they grow old and shed their
skins in the game, literally.

>>Once they get on a virtual money train
>>they have left Tao station and may be on track
>>thinking they are approaching a vanishing point and
>>just how long the ride is, is always beyond the horizon.
>>
>>- their ship has sailed in search of a rainbow's end ...
>
>The tao does seem to consider a rainbow's end to be something more
>real than the metaphor.

Some thinkers may think their tao thinks.
Some may consider their tao considers.

A road, a path, a way
without thinking may take those
who drive on it, walk it, know how to go
to be and not to be seen like a nail in a coffin.

> And the having of too much is of consequence,
>as is not having enough, of a rainbow one would assume in metaphorical
>terms. A very tangible rainbow then.

https://terebess.hu/english/tao/gia.html#Kap03

A center of balance a pot of gold has.
A belly full of food, a sage knows is better.

>>"The Tao of heaven is to take from those who have too much and give to
>>those who do not have enough.
>>Man's way is different.
>>He takes from those who do not have enough and give to those who
>>already have too much."
>
>I think you abstract the literalness of the tao a little more than the
>sages intended. Not that such abstractions might not be valid in a
>different tradition or in your own personal cosmology.

Ways are ways.

To suppose a way is the Way
and shall be that Way for all time and
all the people can be to stretch a point naturally.

For me, another dawn dawns. Another day and
basically to stay in the day, to day the world system,
as if day were a verb can be to move without moving.

- as a present unfolds ...

[Noah Sombrero]

And my task for this morning is to find porridge for my breakfast. Not
finding or finding will each have different consequences for this day
as it is lived.

So the tao posits:

>"The Tao of heaven is to take from those who have too much and give to
>those who do not have enough.
>Man's way is different.
>He takes from those who do not have enough and give to those who
>already have too much."

The tao posits a comfort for those who do not have enough, a way of
heaven that would provide for them. And a way of man that would not.
The empty stomach is not comforted. The gravel falling from the andes
mountains is not noticed. In a million years the difference will be
evident, but I will not be there to see.
--
Noah Sombrero

[one]

Noah wrote:

> Noah wrote:

>>How old is the tao? How many millennia might one wait for this
>>overcoming? Might it seem that such times are beyond human scale, at
>>least, and so not particularly relevant to one human's experience at
>>any point in time?
>
>Perhaps it would clarify the situation a little if the metaphor were
>extended a little to include the constant rising of rocks from the
>deep as well as the constant wearing away of rocks already risen. Thus
>na has the very old aqppalachian mountains and sa has the somewhat new
>andes mountains.
>
>The old wears away, the new arises, and nothing changes for the
>welfare of humans generally.

Standards of living have changed over time.

Some pointers might point to cell phones. Some
can find empty cans being unfilled as starvation is
what they seek to eliminate as they are called.

If food was as scarce as some people say see
then eight billion bodies would not be alive.
Over seven seas some sailors sail.

If water was as poor as some seekers find
then billions of people would have died
except they aren't dead, literally.

> So where is the comfort suggested by the tao?

A collection of ancient sayings, edited over time,
a classic called the Tao Te Ching may suggest how to be
and how not to be and assumes, perhaps, there's no question.

A comfort may be found in finding a balance.

A center within, as with a wheel, nothing is where
thirty spokes are yoked. Cook Ting knew by using his
ever-sharp blade which had no thickness it was so very,
very pointed it found spaces within all the bull given
the oxen were bulls and not cows.

All the so-called facts the media bring to a mind
when other realities are not as easy to find.
Some folk might enjoy games in person
as well as on their tele-visions.

Without leaving home they phone
loved ones and say, did you see the game!
We won! We are the champions!

- for a season ...

[one]

Noah wrote:

>So the tao posits:

By which you mean, a Tao Te Ching.
A collection of sayings, a batch of things.

>>"The Tao of heaven is to take from those who have too much and give to
>>those who do not have enough.
>>Man's way is different.
>>He takes from those who do not have enough and give to those who
>>already have too much."
>
>The tao posits a comfort for those who do not have enough, a way of
>heaven that would provide for them.

An idea being, don't try and rule the world.
Let things be. Allow the Way of Heaven to rule.

A romantic notion. An ocean of thought waves.
Trying to rule the world, especially by force, to force
a square peg in a round hole, to try and fix things breaks things.

Who can be still, a saying may say, and watch as mud settles.
Stirring the mud only keeps water muddy.

> And a way of man that would not.

Power hungry, money hungry, people are selfish. Thinking they,
their family or their tribe or their country, me, my and mine.
They mine artificial lines, drawn by men and promises.
Here is the end of the rainbow, virtual currency!
Get your free money now, if you want it.
Reminds one of a song and a movie.

>The empty stomach is not comforted. The gravel falling from the andes
>mountains is not noticed. In a million years the difference will be
>evident, but I will not be there to see.

To see it now has bins done already
using meta-physical eyes to sea.

To grab cash with both hands, virtual cash,
and watch it like water go through physical fingers,
to point at some ruler say of El Salvador or some other
mythological beast, many people may say, off with their heads
while tales of the coins vary.

Rivers of money with heads of states, from Alexander
who was called the Great, to many other heads that rolled
their eyes and as their empires returned to sand, people wait.

Some finders find a soteriology.
Perhaps it's the Pure Land of Buddhism.
Maybe it's a dream Carlos had.

- as the present unfolds ...

[Noah Sombrero]

Some are mindless in these activities. So it seems to us who consider
ourselves to be mindful. It might also be that these mindless have
considered the philosophy of time clocks and judged such to be
irrelevant to their needs and their understanding.

These mindful also grow old and shed their skins.

What is it that fish need to know?

--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

A doctrine of salvation. There are many to choose from.
The roman emperor constantine wished to find a way to make the masses
happy with their lot, so he brought some holy men together and had
them put together the catholic bible, complete with "blessed are the
humble, etc", and created a religion out of an assortment of ancient
writings.

These days some still find it as a way to be contented to be cattle
for the human predators of mankind to feed upon.

I do think this is an essential service. But not necessarily a true
one. Better that humans should find a way to dispatch the predators
and not need to live in conjured contentment.

If humans are going to comfort themselves with doctrine, at least let
it not be conjured by merchants of illusion.

>Perhaps it's the Pure Land of Buddhism.
>Maybe it's a dream Carlos had.
>
>- as the present unfolds ...

--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

On Thu, 09 Sep 2021 05:23:45 -0700, one <be...@apolka.sign> wrote:

>Noah wrote:
>> Noah wrote:
>
>>>How old is the tao? How many millennia might one wait for this
>>>overcoming? Might it seem that such times are beyond human scale, at
>>>least, and so not particularly relevant to one human's experience at
>>>any point in time?
>>
>>Perhaps it would clarify the situation a little if the metaphor were
>>extended a little to include the constant rising of rocks from the
>>deep as well as the constant wearing away of rocks already risen. Thus
>>na has the very old aqppalachian mountains and sa has the somewhat new
>>andes mountains.
>>
>>The old wears away, the new arises, and nothing changes for the
>>welfare of humans generally.
>
>Standards of living have changed over time.
>
>Some pointers might point to cell phones. Some
>can find empty cans being unfilled as starvation is
>what they seek to eliminate as they are called.
>
>If food was as scarce as some people say see
>then eight billion bodies would not be alive.
>Over seven seas some sailors sail.

Those not being the things that fish need to know.

>If water was as poor as some seekers find
>then billions of people would have died
>except they aren't dead, literally.
>
>> So where is the comfort suggested by the tao?
>
>A collection of ancient sayings, edited over time,
>a classic called the Tao Te Ching may suggest how to be
>and how not to be and assumes, perhaps, there's no question.
>
>A comfort may be found in finding a balance.
>
>A center within, as with a wheel, nothing is where
>thirty spokes are yoked. Cook Ting knew by using his
>ever-sharp blade which had no thickness it was so very,
>very pointed it found spaces within all the bull given
>the oxen were bulls and not cows.
>
>All the so-called facts the media bring to a mind
>when other realities are not as easy to find.
>Some folk might enjoy games in person
>as well as on their tele-visions.
>
>Without leaving home they phone
>loved ones and say, did you see the game!
>We won! We are the champions!
>
>- for a season ...

--
Noah Sombrero

[one]

Noah wrote:
> one wrote:
>> Noah wrote:

>>> one wrote:

>>>>Most folk are of a Tao and are as fish and birds.
>>>>
>>>>They go without going, do without doing and know
>>>>without knowing how much air they breathe nor if air
>>>>is actually breathing them as water flows through them.
>>>
>>>In literal terms, they do not need to know these things. What is it
>>>that, in literal terms, they do need to know?
>>
>>Literally, some punch their time clocks.
>>Hitting the alarm, off to work they go.
>>
>>Being excellet at what they do, like Cook Ting,
>>having vorpal swords in hand they are handy to have
>>at the job-site. Cutting, hammering, building buildings,
>>cooking and cleaning they grow old and shed their
>>skins in the game, literally.
>
>Some are mindless in these activities. So it seems to us who consider
>ourselves to be mindful. It might also be that these mindless have
>considered the philosophy of time clocks and judged such to be
>irrelevant to their needs and their understanding.
>
>These mindful also grow old and shed their skins.

There is what some call, the Universe within
their minds they know it is, or so they say it is.

Their planet, Earth, as they are Earthlings, their nation
states of mind as they say they are ish, ians, and sew froth.
Their cultures, their places in which they abide in their minds
there they go and are, physically and meta-physically as
myths and moths fly round a fire of sorts.

>What is it that fish need to know?

Fish have no need to knead knowing as they go
near the dam, along the river Hao, they swam
and were happy, so said Zhuangzi once
upon a time to his friend Huizi.

http://www.chinaonlinemuseum.com/painting-fish.php

- jumping out of water for joy ... Cheers!

[mite]

Noah wrote:
> one reflected:

>>To grab cash with both hands, virtual cash,
>>and watch it like water go through physical fingers,
>>to point at some ruler say of El Salvador or some other
>>mythological beast, many people may say, off with their heads
>>while tales of the coins vary.
>>
>>Rivers of money with heads of states, from Alexander
>>who was called the Great, to many other heads that rolled
>>their eyes and as their empires returned to sand, people wait.
>>
>>Some finders find a soteriology.
>
>A doctrine of salvation. There are many to choose from.

Aye. A movie, the Magic Christian, showed how far
some people would go to claim a prize, free money.

Pink Floyd sang about making a stash
along with Welcome to the Machine.

>The roman emperor constantine wished to find a way to make the masses
>happy with their lot, so he brought some holy men together and had
>them put together the catholic bible, complete with "blessed are the
>humble, etc", and created a religion out of an assortment of ancient
>writings.
>
>These days some still find it as a way to be contented to be cattle
>for the human predators of mankind to feed upon.
>
>I do think this is an essential service. But not necessarily a true
>one. Better that humans should find a way to dispatch the predators
>and not need to live in conjured contentment.

Heaven's Way may
be as Abraham's God, the one of Moses who,
to make a name for his Elf, hardened the heart of a pharaoh.

Some may find their Universe being as a moral Supreme Being.
Some might insist based on their science, there is no Meaning.

>If humans are going to comfort themselves with doctrine, at least let
>it not be conjured by merchants of illusion.

Finding a balance, when one's heart is as light
as a feather and scales are not over one's eyes,
when currencies are not one's love nor fear, being
able to take flight, one mite finds a fantasy eye land.

>>Perhaps it's the Pure Land of Buddhism.
>>Maybe it's a dream Carlos had.
>>
>>- as the present unfolds ...

Paper money might be folded, as origami notes played
to a tune of material wealth and physical health.

- immortal fish fly ...

[one]

Noah wrote:
> one wrote:
>> Noah wrote:

>>>The old wears away, the new arises, and nothing changes for the
>>>welfare of humans generally.
>>
>>Standards of living have changed over time.
>>
>>Some pointers might point to cell phones. Some
>>can find empty cans being unfilled as starvation is
>>what they seek to eliminate as they are called.
>>
>>If food was as scarce as some people say see
>>then eight billion bodies would not be alive.
>>Over seven seas some sailors sail.
>
>Those not being the things that fish need to know.

Some fish know ladders.
Some birds know adders.

"Among the adders predators are
hedgehogs, badgers, foxes, crows and herons."

Some people know w'hats matter.

- go figure ...

[Noah Sombrero]

Could be. Not the same thing as the soft will overcome, which would
not be necessary to finding a balance, or even conducive to the
effort. Necessarily.
--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

As they ignorantly live in the water and flow through it, but know
nothing of it, as you say. Except that is not the real thing that the
fish (humans in air) need to know. What is it they need to know?

>Fish have no need to knead knowing as they go
>near the dam, along the river Hao, they swam
>and were happy, so said Zhuangzi once
>upon a time to his friend Huizi.
>
>http://www.chinaonlinemuseum.com/painting-fish.php
>
>- jumping out of water for joy ... Cheers!

--
Noah Sombrero

[one]

Noah wrote:

> mite wrote:

>>- immortal fish fly ...
>
>Could be. Not the same thing as the soft will overcome, which would
>not be necessary to finding a balance, or even conducive to the
>effort. Necessarily.

When people surrender their ego, give up, humble their selves
and go with the Flow so to speak or call on their Higher Power,
that might mean what various sayings are saying.

- ore knot

[one]

Noah wrote:

>> Noah wrote:

>>>What is it that fish need to know?
>
>As they ignorantly live in the water and flow through it, but know
>nothing of it, as you say. Except that is not the real thing that the
>fish (humans in air) need to know. What is it they need to know?

I don't know.
Is the question a koan?

For me, beer is a real possiblity.

- thanks! Cheers!

[Noah Sombrero]

There is mention of a higher power in the tao? I missed that. In
buddhism? Buddlha explicitly said, I am not a god, don't worship me.
--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

On Thu, 09 Sep 2021 14:06:18 -0700, one <be...@apolka.sign> wrote:

>Noah wrote:
>>> Noah wrote:
>
>>>>What is it that fish need to know?
>>
>>As they ignorantly live in the water and flow through it, but know
>>nothing of it, as you say. Except that is not the real thing that the
>>fish (humans in air) need to know. What is it they need to know?
>
>I don't know.
>Is the question a koan?

Not sure. The situation was yours. I merely asked what the
fish/bird/human was unaware of. Other that air and water,
metaphorically.

>For me, beer is a real possiblity.

The better to be unaware.

>- thanks! Cheers!
--
Noah Sombrero

[ansaman]

On 9/9/2021 7:10 PM, Noah Sombrero wrote:
> There is mention of a higher power in the tao? I missed that. In
> buddhism? Buddlha explicitly said, I am not a god, don't worship me.

And yet, they do and label it paying respect. Do you think
that Buddha would approve of massive golden statues?

--
**The AnsaMan**
Stupor Mundi!

[one]

Noah wrote:

>one wrote:
>>Noah wrote:
>>>> Noah wrote:
>>
>>>>>What is it that fish need to know?
>>>
>>>As they ignorantly live in the water and flow through it, but know
>>>nothing of it, as you say. Except that is not the real thing that the
>>>fish (humans in air) need to know. What is it they need to know?
>>
>>I don't know.
>>Is the question a koan?
>
>Not sure. The situation was yours. I merely asked what the
>fish/bird/human was unaware of. Other that air and water,
>metaphorically.

Being unaware of water, fish swim none-the-less.
Being unaware of air, birds fly without a care.
Being unaware of a Tao, people move without effort.

If some body, a so-called, individual, struggles
then he or she might be akin to a fish out of water,
having lost the Tao that is effortless, spontaneous, etc.

A need then, could be how to return to what's natural.
How to return to the Garden, being once again as one was
before learning, culture, goals and such were indoctrinated.

Having a brain washed with desire for a form of currency
might be fun and games to a point, beyond which it could
be all too real. Even thought it's a virtual mint there may
occur a bad taste in the mouths of those who buy them.

A mint is a mint.
A rose is a rose.
Some are paper.

They don't all smell the same.

Fish out of water might need to grow legs, breathe air,
walk on land and make a stand, evolve over time and
eventually fly away from a pale blue dot to survive.

- given: evolution ... Thanks!

[Noah Sombrero]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2021 04:28:04 -0400, ansaman <ans...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 9/9/2021 7:10 PM, Noah Sombrero wrote:
>> There is mention of a higher power in the tao? I missed that. In
>> buddhism? Buddlha explicitly said, I am not a god, don't worship me.
>
>And yet, they do and label it paying respect. Do you think
>that Buddha would approve of massive golden statues?

No, he would not. The fact that he said don't do it, doesn't mean
that devotees don't do what pleases them, as in all religions.

A religion is not responsible for what those who think they follow it
believe and do.
--
Noah Sombrero

[one]

Noah wrote:

>one wrote:
>>Noah wrote:
>>> mite wrote:
>>
>>>>- immortal fish fly ...
>>>
>>>Could be. Not the same thing as the soft will overcome, which would
>>>not be necessary to finding a balance, or even conducive to the
>>>effort. Necessarily.
>>
>>When people surrender their ego, give up, humble their selves
>>and go with the Flow so to speak or call on their Higher Power,
>>that might mean what various sayings are saying.
>>
>>- ore knot
>
>There is mention of a higher power in the tao? I missed that. In
>buddhism? Buddlha explicitly said, I am not a god, don't worship me.

Soteriology can distill eclectic variations on a theme.

Tao Chia's Tao tends to decline, toward the soft and low and contrasts
with philosophies which suggest the opposites such a high, masculine,
powerful, yang, etc. Water overcomes the hardest rock patiently.

People have survived for thousands of years farming, weaving
and doing things which the Tao Te Ching suggests are natural.

Imagine, TTC 80 may say, having fine food, clothing, and
neighbors. A perfect harmony. No need to go nor do.
Simply be without strife, nor to strive for more.

There is need for any savior god. Tao is akin to empty space.
Imagine, TTC 80 continues, having technologies, vehicles
yet no desire to use them as one is content, totally.

To be content, be as a newborn again.
Along with a Tao is Te, virtue.
TTC 10 may explain.
TTC 55 articulates further.

http://www.mobilewords.pro/Tao/chap10.htm#top

http://www.mobilewords.pro/Tao/chap55.htm#top

Metaphors may work to a point without working
beyond a point stretched to make a point naturally.

With Buddhism a saving grace is to eliminate desire.
The First Noble Truth, the Second, Third, Fourth all
stem from a coin. A virtual coin from a virtual mint.

To cease to suffer, let go of the coin.
Two sides are minted from the same virtual mint.

- approval ratings vary ... Thanks again!

[Noah Sombrero]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2021 04:55:51 -0700, one <be...@apolka.sign> wrote:

>Noah wrote:
>>one wrote:
>>>Noah wrote:
>>>>> Noah wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>What is it that fish need to know?
>>>>
>>>>As they ignorantly live in the water and flow through it, but know
>>>>nothing of it, as you say. Except that is not the real thing that the
>>>>fish (humans in air) need to know. What is it they need to know?
>>>
>>>I don't know.
>>>Is the question a koan?
>>
>>Not sure. The situation was yours. I merely asked what the
>>fish/bird/human was unaware of. Other that air and water,
>>metaphorically.
>
>Being unaware of water, fish swim none-the-less.
>Being unaware of air, birds fly without a care.
>Being unaware of a Tao, people move without effort.

I heard you criticizing the poor fish for being unaware of the water.

>If some body, a so-called, individual, struggles
>then he or she might be akin to a fish out of water,
>having lost the Tao that is effortless, spontaneous, etc.

How do you pull the turnip for your dinner out of the ground if not by
struggle?

>A need then, could be how to return to what's natural.
>How to return to the Garden, being once again as one was
>before learning, culture, goals and such were indoctrinated.

And dog/cat/lion/wolf can do that. I'm not sure they are so much
better off than us indoctrinated.

>Having a brain washed with desire for a form of currency
>might be fun and games to a point, beyond which it could
>be all too real. Even thought it's a virtual mint there may
>occur a bad taste in the mouths of those who buy them.

Then there is no point in assuring me that my soft will overcome the
strong. Or that the sage gives away what is more than he needs
(rather than not collect it in the first place).

>A mint is a mint.
>A rose is a rose.
>Some are paper.
>
>They don't all smell the same.
>
>Fish out of water might need to grow legs, breathe air,
>walk on land and make a stand, evolve over time and
>eventually fly away from a pale blue dot to survive.

So a sage might dream, being unaware of what lies beyond the blue dot.

>- given: evolution ... Thanks!

--
Noah Sombrero

[one]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2021 ansaman wrote:
>On 9/9/2021 7:10 PM, Noah Sombrero wrote:
>
>> There is mention of a higher power in the tao? I missed that. In
>> buddhism? Buddlha explicitly said, I am not a god, don't worship me.
>
>And yet, they do and label it paying respect. Do you think
>that Buddha would approve of massive golden statues?

Would a Buddha be attached to being unattached?

As an old man, a Lao Tzu left the realm.
As a younger man, Chuang Tzu preferred fishing.

One story goes, once upon a time a Buddha lifted a flower
without saying a word and a smile indicated a transmission
shifted gears without a clutch petal as it was an automatic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_Sermon

A massive golden statue can be like a flower
when people see one and receive, perceive and know
all forms are forms of what is. Suchness.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tathata

An essence of concrete and gold may appear
when cement is wet or metal is molten.

Softness, in other words, can be a key.

- prime factors vary ... Thanks again!

[Noah Sombrero]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2021 05:16:11 -0700, one <be...@apolka.sign> wrote:

>Noah wrote:
>>one wrote:
>>>Noah wrote:
>>>> mite wrote:
>>>
>>>>>- immortal fish fly ...
>>>>
>>>>Could be. Not the same thing as the soft will overcome, which would
>>>>not be necessary to finding a balance, or even conducive to the
>>>>effort. Necessarily.
>>>
>>>When people surrender their ego, give up, humble their selves
>>>and go with the Flow so to speak or call on their Higher Power,
>>>that might mean what various sayings are saying.
>>>
>>>- ore knot
>>
>>There is mention of a higher power in the tao? I missed that. In
>>buddhism? Buddlha explicitly said, I am not a god, don't worship me.
>
>Soteriology can distill eclectic variations on a theme.
>
>Tao Chia's Tao tends to decline, toward the soft and low and contrasts
>with philosophies which suggest the opposites such a high, masculine,
>powerful, yang, etc. Water overcomes the hardest rock patiently.
>
>People have survived for thousands of years farming, weaving
>and doing things which the Tao Te Ching suggests are natural.

In the orient where such people for centuries were wracked by famine
caused in large part by depredations of warring leaders. Actually
similar to the warring going on in europe at a similar time in world
history. It is not like the leaders were different creatures from the
farming weavers.

>Imagine, TTC 80 may say, having fine food, clothing, and
>neighbors. A perfect harmony. No need to go nor do.
>Simply be without strife, nor to strive for more.

Yes, imagine that. Unfortunately, there is another need that humans
feel and seek in addition to fine food and clothing. They seem to
need status one relative to another. Which is how ancient societies
got farmers/weavers and leaders to war with each other.

>There is need for any savior god. Tao is akin to empty space.
>Imagine, TTC 80 continues, having technologies, vehicles
>yet no desire to use them as one is content, totally.
>
>To be content, be as a newborn again.

Newborns cry a lot.

>Along with a Tao is Te, virtue.
>TTC 10 may explain.
>TTC 55 articulates further.

It seems humans have had such teachings for many centuries in various
forms, yet remain much as they were, generally. Meanwhile there are
also, in the population, spiritual athletes who wonder why it is that
all cannot be athletes like them.

>http://www.mobilewords.pro/Tao/chap10.htm#top
>
>http://www.mobilewords.pro/Tao/chap55.htm#top
>
>Metaphors may work to a point without working
>beyond a point stretched to make a point naturally.
>
>With Buddhism a saving grace is to eliminate desire.
>The First Noble Truth, the Second, Third, Fourth all
>stem from a coin. A virtual coin from a virtual mint.
>
>To cease to suffer, let go of the coin.
>Two sides are minted from the same virtual mint.
>
>- approval ratings vary ... Thanks again!

--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2021 05:28:48 -0700, one <be...@apolka.sign> wrote:

>On Fri, 10 Sep 2021 ansaman wrote:
>>On 9/9/2021 7:10 PM, Noah Sombrero wrote:
>>
>>> There is mention of a higher power in the tao? I missed that. In
>>> buddhism? Buddlha explicitly said, I am not a god, don't worship me.
>>
>>And yet, they do and label it paying respect. Do you think
>>that Buddha would approve of massive golden statues?
>
>Would a Buddha be attached to being unattached?
>
>As an old man, a Lao Tzu left the realm.
>As a younger man, Chuang Tzu preferred fishing.
>
>One story goes, once upon a time a Buddha lifted a flower
>without saying a word and a smile indicated a transmission
>shifted gears without a clutch petal as it was an automatic.
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_Sermon
>
>A massive golden statue can be like a flower
>when people see one and receive, perceive and know
>all forms are forms of what is. Suchness.

Then why not plant a bed of flowers and let seekers come to that for
their enlightenment? The massive golden statue tends to obscure the
message, especially for those of us who are not spiritual athletes.

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tathata
>
>An essence of concrete and gold may appear
>when cement is wet or metal is molten.
>
>Softness, in other words, can be a key.
>
>- prime factors vary ... Thanks again!

--
Noah Sombrero

[one]

Noah wrote:
>one wrote:
>>Noah wrote:
>>>one wrote:
>>>>Noah wrote:
>>>>>> Noah wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>What is it that fish need to know?
>>>>>
>>>>>As they ignorantly live in the water and flow through it, but know
>>>>>nothing of it, as you say. Except that is not the real thing that the
>>>>>fish (humans in air) need to know. What is it they need to know?
>>>>
>>>>I don't know.
>>>>Is the question a koan?
>>>
>>>Not sure. The situation was yours. I merely asked what the
>>>fish/bird/human was unaware of. Other that air and water,
>>>metaphorically.
>>
>>Being unaware of water, fish swim none-the-less.
>>Being unaware of air, birds fly without a care.
>>Being unaware of a Tao, people move without effort.
>
>I heard you criticizing the poor fish for being unaware of the water.

Quite the projection you had going on there.

The fish are happy swimming near the dam along the Hao River.
Huizi asked Zz how he knew. Zz said Huizi knew Zz knew
when he asked him how right there strolling.

>>If some body, a so-called, individual, struggles
>>then he or she might be akin to a fish out of water,
>>having lost the Tao that is effortless, spontaneous, etc.
>
>How do you pull the turnip for your dinner out of the ground if not by
>struggle?

Missing points could be a knack.
A point stretched beyond a point isn't the point.

Sayings say what they say. Words point.

If the turnip doesn't want to be dinner when the ground is hard,
then, using water to soften the soil can be a key to how soft
is able to be a better Way, again and again, to a point.

>>A need then, could be how to return to what's natural.
>>How to return to the Garden, being once again as one was
>>before learning, culture, goals and such were indoctrinated.
>
>And dog/cat/lion/wolf can do that. I'm not sure they are so much
>better off than us indoctrinated.

Among many contrasts found in a Taoist philosophy one can be
how artificial people are. How unnatural political systems are.
Leave things alone, a philosophy may be.

Allow mud to settle and stop trying to fix the world
especially by using force. Force is mentioned more than once
as being, not the Way of Tao Chia. TTC 30 arrives in mind.

Wanting to be a king of the mountain, to have all the gold,
all the silver, all the bit-coins in the digital universe is
not going to solve all the problems of life.

Money tends not to be able to buy love nor health.
A digital currency might work as good as gold or paper
or electronic numbering systems including plastic for a spell.

>>Having a brain washed with desire for a form of currency
>>might be fun and games to a point, beyond which it could
>>be all too real. Even thought it's a virtual mint there may
>>occur a bad taste in the mouths of those who buy them.
>
>Then there is no point in assuring me that my soft will overcome the
>strong. Or that the sage gives away what is more than he needs
>(rather than not collect it in the first place).

Taking a saying out of context is possible.

Given: a Tao is a Tao, a Tao works, to a point. TTC 1.1.a may
say as much. TTC 1.1.b could suggest how no Way is always
the Way and that would include its own Way and Ways.

Being soft and yielding, as water, can be a Way, naturally.
Being rigid and hard as nails might work to a point as well.

When the gnarly tree was fostered as iconic in Tao Chia
stories told of how being of use has an effect of being cut
in one's prime to make furniture, etc. Being useless is better.

The gnarly tree was of no use, hence it was left alone.
It survived for an age, and ages as it aged, being gnarly.
Then, one day, Zz's band stopped for dinner at a farm.

https://terebess.hu/english/chuangtzu2.html#20

>>A mint is a mint.
>>A rose is a rose.
>>Some are paper.
>>
>>They don't all smell the same.
>>
>>Fish out of water might need to grow legs, breathe air,
>>walk on land and make a stand, evolve over time and
>>eventually fly away from a pale blue dot to survive.
>
>So a sage might dream, being unaware of what lies beyond the blue dot.

What dreams people had in the texts of what is after life
could be a theme and when awakening occurs it's a thing.

... to be continued ...

[one]

Noah wrote:

> one wrote:

>>Tao Chia's Tao tends to decline, toward the soft and low and contrasts
>>with philosophies which suggest the opposites such a high, masculine,
>>powerful, yang, etc. Water overcomes the hardest rock patiently.
>>
>>People have survived for thousands of years farming, weaving
>>and doing things which the Tao Te Ching suggests are natural.
>
>In the orient where such people for centuries were wracked by famine
>caused in large part by depredations of warring leaders. Actually
>similar to the warring going on in europe at a similar time in world
>history. It is not like the leaders were different creatures from the
>farming weavers.

If there were no leaders, being all mighty and hard power hungry
sorts then the farmers may have had their farms left alone.
War is said to be not the Way. Nor is high taxation.

>>Imagine, TTC 80 may say, having fine food, clothing, and
>>neighbors. A perfect harmony. No need to go nor do.
>>Simply be without strife, nor to strive for more.
>
>Yes, imagine that.

A point made in the shade.

> Unfortunately, there is another need that humans
>feel and seek in addition to fine food and clothing. They seem to
>need status one relative to another.

The hard-nosed, power-seeking, may have such a need.
A point being, don't be as those are. Be soft as the dust, etc.

> Which is how ancient societies
>got farmers/weavers and leaders to war with each other.

Power corrupts a saying may say.

>>There is need for any savior god. Tao is akin to empty space.
>>Imagine, TTC 80 continues, having technologies, vehicles
>>yet no desire to use them as one is content, totally.
>>
>>To be content, be as a newborn again.
>
>Newborns cry a lot.

Missing points could be an art.

>>Along with a Tao is Te, virtue.
>>TTC 10 may explain.
>>TTC 55 articulates further.
>
>It seems humans have had such teachings for many centuries in various
>forms, yet remain much as they were, generally. Meanwhile there are
>also, in the population, spiritual athletes who wonder why it is that
>all cannot be athletes like them.

Given: the Great Dream Drama. The cast of characters contains
many who are extras, a few who are stars. Shooting, laughing,
forms of the actors change with a scene seen by audience folk.

<< "Lady Li was the daughter of the border guard of Ai.
When she was first taken captive and brought to the state of Chin,
she wept until her tears drenched the collar of her robe. But later,
when she went to live in the palace of the ruler, shared his couch
with him, and ate the delicious meats of his table, she wondered why
she had ever wept. How do I know that the dead do not wonder
why they ever longed for life?

"He who dreams of drinking wine may weep when morning comes;
he who dreams of weeping may in the morning go off to hunt.
While he is dreaming he does not know it is a dream, and in his dream
he may even try to interpret a dream. Only after he wakes does he know
it was a dream. And someday there will be a great awakening when we
know that this is all a great dream. Yet the stupid believe they are
awake, busily and brightly assuming they understand things, calling
this man ruler, that one herdsman - how dense! Confucius and you are
both dreaming! And when I say you are dreaming, I am dreaming, too.
Words like these will be labeled the Supreme Swindle. Yet, after ten
thousand generations, a great sage may appear who will know
their meaning, and it will still be as though he appeared
with astonishing speed. >> - Watson's version.

[one]

Noah wrote:

> one wrote:
>>On Fri, 10 Sep 2021 ansaman wrote:
>>>On 9/9/2021 7:10 PM, Noah Sombrero wrote:
>>>
>>>> There is mention of a higher power in the tao? I missed that. In
>>>> buddhism? Buddlha explicitly said, I am not a god, don't worship me.
>>>
>>>And yet, they do and label it paying respect. Do you think
>>>that Buddha would approve of massive golden statues?
>>
>>Would a Buddha be attached to being unattached?
>>
>>As an old man, a Lao Tzu left the realm.
>>As a younger man, Chuang Tzu preferred fishing.
>>
>>One story goes, once upon a time a Buddha lifted a flower
>>without saying a word and a smile indicated a transmission
>>shifted gears without a clutch petal as it was an automatic.
>>
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_Sermon
>>
>>A massive golden statue can be like a flower
>>when people see one and receive, perceive and know
>>all forms are forms of what is. Suchness.
>
>Then why not plant a bed of flowers and let seekers come to that for
>their enlightenment? The massive golden statue tends to obscure the
>message, especially for those of us who are not spiritual athletes.

Those without eyes might not smell the roses either.

A massive golden statue could plant a seed.

Some who see the giant may wonder.

A journey of a thousand steps
begins for those who find a path, their Paths.
Seeking what is, for them, the Spirit, leads them.

How pathetic, the physical/materialist bit-coin people say.
Metaphysics. Bah. Humbug. Miners go and count the day.
When they too will live as kings and queens and they may.

- ore they might knot ...

[one]

one wrote:
> Noah wrote:
>> one wrote a bout:

>>>Fish out of water might need to grow legs, breathe air,
>>>walk on land and make a stand, evolve over time and
>>>eventually fly away from a pale blue dot to survive.
>>
>>So a sage might dream, being unaware of what lies beyond the blue dot.
>
>What dreams people had in the texts of what is after life
>could be a theme and when awakening occurs it's a thing.
>
>... to be continued ...

<< When Chuang Tzu went to Ch'u, he saw an old skull, all dry and
parched. He poked it with his carriage whip and then asked, "Sir, were
you greedy for life and forgetful of reason, and so came to this? Was
your state overthrown and did you bow beneath the ax, and so came to
this? Did you do some evil deed and were you ashamed to bring disgrace
upon your parents and family, and so came to this? Was it through the
pangs of cold and hunger that you came to this? Or did your springs
and autumns pile up until they brought you to this?"

When he had finished speaking, he dragged the skull over and, using it
for a pillow, lay down to sleep.

In the middle of the night, the skull came to him in a dream and said,
"You chatter like a rhetorician and all your words betray the
entanglements of a living man. The dead know nothing of these! Would
you like to hear a lecture on the dead?"

"Indeed," said Chuang Tzu.

The skull said, "Among the dead there are no rulers above, no subjects
below, and no chores of the four seasons. With nothing to do, our
springs and autumns are as endless as heaven and earth. A king facing
south on his throne could have no more happiness than this!"

Chuang Tzu couldn't believe this and said, "If I got the Arbiter of
Fate to give you a body again, make you some bones and flesh, return
you to your parents and family and your old home and friends, you
would want that, wouldn't you?"

The skull frowned severely, wrinkling up its brow. "Why would I throw
away more happiness than that of a king on a throne and take on the
troubles of a human being again?" it said. >>

[Noah Sombrero]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2021 06:10:32 -0700, one <be...@apolka.sign> wrote:

>Noah wrote:
>> one wrote:
>>>On Fri, 10 Sep 2021 ansaman wrote:
>>>>On 9/9/2021 7:10 PM, Noah Sombrero wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There is mention of a higher power in the tao? I missed that. In
>>>>> buddhism? Buddlha explicitly said, I am not a god, don't worship me.
>>>>
>>>>And yet, they do and label it paying respect. Do you think
>>>>that Buddha would approve of massive golden statues?
>>>
>>>Would a Buddha be attached to being unattached?
>>>
>>>As an old man, a Lao Tzu left the realm.
>>>As a younger man, Chuang Tzu preferred fishing.
>>>
>>>One story goes, once upon a time a Buddha lifted a flower
>>>without saying a word and a smile indicated a transmission
>>>shifted gears without a clutch petal as it was an automatic.
>>>
>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_Sermon
>>>
>>>A massive golden statue can be like a flower
>>>when people see one and receive, perceive and know
>>>all forms are forms of what is. Suchness.
>>
>>Then why not plant a bed of flowers and let seekers come to that for
>>their enlightenment? The massive golden statue tends to obscure the
>>message, especially for those of us who are not spiritual athletes.
>
>Those without eyes might not smell the roses either.

So there is no point to the statue.

>A massive golden statue could plant a seed.

Or it could represent great wealth and power.

>Some who see the giant may wonder.

Actually, if wondering is the goal, a flower is by far the greater
wonder. Something no human, no matter how wealthy or powerful could
create.

>A journey of a thousand steps
>begins for those who find a path, their Paths.
>Seeking what is, for them, the Spirit, leads them.
>
>How pathetic, the physical/materialist bit-coin people say.
>Metaphysics. Bah. Humbug. Miners go and count the day.
>When they too will live as kings and queens and they may.

And create a giant golden statue.

>- ore they might knot ...

--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2021 06:02:08 -0700, one <be...@apolka.sign> wrote:

>Noah wrote:
>> one wrote:
>
>>>Tao Chia's Tao tends to decline, toward the soft and low and contrasts
>>>with philosophies which suggest the opposites such a high, masculine,
>>>powerful, yang, etc. Water overcomes the hardest rock patiently.
>>>
>>>People have survived for thousands of years farming, weaving
>>>and doing things which the Tao Te Ching suggests are natural.
>>
>>In the orient where such people for centuries were wracked by famine
>>caused in large part by depredations of warring leaders. Actually
>>similar to the warring going on in europe at a similar time in world
>>history. It is not like the leaders were different creatures from the
>>farming weavers.
>
>If there were no leaders, being all mighty and hard power hungry
>sorts then the farmers may have had their farms left alone.
>War is said to be not the Way. Nor is high taxation.

Yet leaders are not different creatures. Leaders would not be leaders
if farmers/weavers refused to follow. Both are part of a social
structure that says there must be leaders and there must be
farmers/weavers. If the farmer finds himself without a leader, he and
his fellows will choose one. The same thing with chickens. If a herd
looses it's rooster, a hen will take on the role until a new rooster
is found. The pattern is older than humankind itself.

>>>Imagine, TTC 80 may say, having fine food, clothing, and
>>>neighbors. A perfect harmony. No need to go nor do.
>>>Simply be without strife, nor to strive for more.
>>
>>Yes, imagine that.
>
>A point made in the shade.
>
>> Unfortunately, there is another need that humans
>>feel and seek in addition to fine food and clothing. They seem to
>>need status one relative to another.
>
>The hard-nosed, power-seeking, may have such a need.
>A point being, don't be as those are. Be soft as the dust, etc.

Both the dust and the rock are needed.

>> Which is how ancient societies
>>got farmers/weavers and leaders to war with each other.
>
>Power corrupts a saying may say.

Indeed. It is the curse of the human condition.

>>>There is need for any savior god. Tao is akin to empty space.
>>>Imagine, TTC 80 continues, having technologies, vehicles
>>>yet no desire to use them as one is content, totally.
>>>
>>>To be content, be as a newborn again.
>>
>>Newborns cry a lot.
>
>Missing points could be an art.

Assigning a fantasy to a baby could be an art.

>>>Along with a Tao is Te, virtue.
>>>TTC 10 may explain.
>>>TTC 55 articulates further.
>>
>>It seems humans have had such teachings for many centuries in various
>>forms, yet remain much as they were, generally. Meanwhile there are
>>also, in the population, spiritual athletes who wonder why it is that
>>all cannot be athletes like them.
>
>Given: the Great Dream Drama. The cast of characters contains
>many who are extras, a few who are stars. Shooting, laughing,
>forms of the actors change with a scene seen by audience folk.

This is something. There is an undercurrent in religions about how
the masses are provided as a environment where masters will be able to
grow and mature. This feels to me like the ultimate ego massage. The
great lack of compassion.

><< "Lady Li was the daughter of the border guard of Ai.
>When she was first taken captive and brought to the state of Chin,
>she wept until her tears drenched the collar of her robe. But later,
>when she went to live in the palace of the ruler, shared his couch
>with him, and ate the delicious meats of his table, she wondered why
>she had ever wept. How do I know that the dead do not wonder
>why they ever longed for life?

How do you know that you have not been corrupted? Like the master who
accepts that the masses are there so he can learn to be wise.

The thing that we often miss when taking a pet is that the animal
exists for itself, not to make you happy, although it might. But for
itself, it exists to be a cat or dog. The cat, for instance chooses
to own you or not. You do not own the cat, in the cat's mind. If you
mistreat your dog, it will run away and seek whatever fortune it can
find for itself in the world. Perhaps another meal provider, perhaps
not.

>"He who dreams of drinking wine may weep when morning comes;
>he who dreams of weeping may in the morning go off to hunt.
>While he is dreaming he does not know it is a dream, and in his dream
>he may even try to interpret a dream. Only after he wakes does he know
>it was a dream. And someday there will be a great awakening when we
>know that this is all a great dream. Yet the stupid believe they are
>awake, busily and brightly assuming they understand things, calling
>this man ruler, that one herdsman - how dense! Confucius and you are
>both dreaming! And when I say you are dreaming, I am dreaming, too.
>Words like these will be labeled the Supreme Swindle. Yet, after ten
>thousand generations, a great sage may appear who will know
>their meaning, and it will still be as though he appeared
>with astonishing speed. >> - Watson's version.

--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2021 05:50:09 -0700, one <be...@apolka.sign> wrote:

>Noah wrote:
>>one wrote:
>>>Noah wrote:
>>>>one wrote:
>>>>>Noah wrote:
>>>>>>> Noah wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>What is it that fish need to know?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>As they ignorantly live in the water and flow through it, but know
>>>>>>nothing of it, as you say. Except that is not the real thing that the
>>>>>>fish (humans in air) need to know. What is it they need to know?
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't know.
>>>>>Is the question a koan?
>>>>
>>>>Not sure. The situation was yours. I merely asked what the
>>>>fish/bird/human was unaware of. Other that air and water,
>>>>metaphorically.
>>>
>>>Being unaware of water, fish swim none-the-less.
>>>Being unaware of air, birds fly without a care.
>>>Being unaware of a Tao, people move without effort.
>>
>>I heard you criticizing the poor fish for being unaware of the water.
>
>Quite the projection you had going on there.

um hm.

>The fish are happy swimming near the dam along the Hao River.
>Huizi asked Zz how he knew. Zz said Huizi knew Zz knew
>when he asked him how right there strolling.

Missing the point.

>>>If some body, a so-called, individual, struggles
>>>then he or she might be akin to a fish out of water,
>>>having lost the Tao that is effortless, spontaneous, etc.
>>
>>How do you pull the turnip for your dinner out of the ground if not by
>>struggle?
>
>Missing points could be a knack.
>A point stretched beyond a point isn't the point.

The point is that struggle is the human condition.

>Sayings say what they say. Words point.
>
>If the turnip doesn't want to be dinner when the ground is hard,
>then, using water to soften the soil can be a key to how soft
>is able to be a better Way, again and again, to a point.

And the root goes beyond where a bucket of water can reach.
Wife says, simply pull up that turnip and bring it to me. The water
is boiling now.

>>>A need then, could be how to return to what's natural.
>>>How to return to the Garden, being once again as one was
>>>before learning, culture, goals and such were indoctrinated.
>>
>>And dog/cat/lion/wolf can do that. I'm not sure they are so much
>>better off than us indoctrinated.
>
>Among many contrasts found in a Taoist philosophy one can be
>how artificial people are. How unnatural political systems are.

All true. Perhaps the wise thing would be to understand why societies
find such things necessary.

>Leave things alone, a philosophy may be.

In the dreams of a discontented human.

>Allow mud to settle and stop trying to fix the world
>especially by using force. Force is mentioned more than once
>as being, not the Way of Tao Chia. TTC 30 arrives in mind.
>
>Wanting to be a king of the mountain, to have all the gold,
>all the silver, all the bit-coins in the digital universe is
>not going to solve all the problems of life.

No, they were not meant to. What were they meant to do?

>Money tends not to be able to buy love nor health.
>A digital currency might work as good as gold or paper
>or electronic numbering systems including plastic for a spell.

Or not. It might also attract those kings of the mountain wishing for
a higher mountain.

>>>Having a brain washed with desire for a form of currency
>>>might be fun and games to a point, beyond which it could
>>>be all too real. Even thought it's a virtual mint there may
>>>occur a bad taste in the mouths of those who buy them.
>>
>>Then there is no point in assuring me that my soft will overcome the
>>strong. Or that the sage gives away what is more than he needs
>>(rather than not collect it in the first place).
>
>Taking a saying out of context is possible.

Or understand it in the context of all sayings.

>Given: a Tao is a Tao, a Tao works, to a point. TTC 1.1.a may
>say as much. TTC 1.1.b could suggest how no Way is always
>the Way and that would include its own Way and Ways.

Which shows how:

>Being soft and yielding, as water, can be a Way, naturally.
>Being rigid and hard as nails might work to a point as well.

This is not necessarily so.

>When the gnarly tree was fostered as iconic in Tao Chia
>stories told of how being of use has an effect of being cut
>in one's prime to make furniture, etc. Being useless is better.
>
>The gnarly tree was of no use, hence it was left alone.
>It survived for an age, and ages as it aged, being gnarly.

For its own purpose, for itself, not so some master might be wise.

>Then, one day, Zz's band stopped for dinner at a farm.
>
>https://terebess.hu/english/chuangtzu2.html#20
>
>>>A mint is a mint.
>>>A rose is a rose.
>>>Some are paper.
>>>
>>>They don't all smell the same.
>>>
>>>Fish out of water might need to grow legs, breathe air,
>>>walk on land and make a stand, evolve over time and
>>>eventually fly away from a pale blue dot to survive.
>>
>>So a sage might dream, being unaware of what lies beyond the blue dot.
>
>What dreams people had in the texts of what is after life
>could be a theme and when awakening occurs it's a thing.

Concern with what happens after this life indicates a dissatisfaction
with this life. Also, a lack of awareness of what lies beyond the
blue dot. I might not be so hospitable as we dream.

>... to be continued ...
>
>>>- given: evolution ... Thanks!

--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

More dissatisfaction. The dog runs away and seeks whatever fortune it
might find in the world.
--
Noah Sombrero

[one]

Noah wrote:

>one wrote:
>>Noah wrote:
>>> one wrote:
>>>>On Fri, 10 Sep 2021 ansaman wrote:
>>>>>On 9/9/2021 7:10 PM, Noah Sombrero wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> There is mention of a higher power in the tao? I missed that. In
>>>>>> buddhism? Buddlha explicitly said, I am not a god, don't worship me.
>>>>>
>>>>>And yet, they do and label it paying respect. Do you think
>>>>>that Buddha would approve of massive golden statues?
>>>>
>>>>Would a Buddha be attached to being unattached?
>>>>
>>>>As an old man, a Lao Tzu left the realm.
>>>>As a younger man, Chuang Tzu preferred fishing.
>>>>
>>>>One story goes, once upon a time a Buddha lifted a flower
>>>>without saying a word and a smile indicated a transmission
>>>>shifted gears without a clutch petal as it was an automatic.
>>>>
>>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_Sermon
>>>>
>>>>A massive golden statue can be like a flower
>>>>when people see one and receive, perceive and know
>>>>all forms are forms of what is. Suchness.
>>>
>>>Then why not plant a bed of flowers and let seekers come to that for
>>>their enlightenment? The massive golden statue tends to obscure the
>>>message, especially for those of us who are not spiritual athletes.
>>
>>Those without eyes might not smell the roses either.
>
>So there is no point to the statue.

Presumably there was a huge point for the makers of it.
For those who saw or see no point, there is no point.
Some seers and seekers might laugh at the folly.
A few who see it could be inspired by it.

The way that is a way isn't necessarily always the Way.

>>A massive golden statue could plant a seed.
>
>Or it could represent great wealth and power.

Interpretations tend to vary.
The interpretation that is an interpretation
isn't necessarily the one and only One, naturally.

>>Some who see the giant may wonder.
>
>Actually, if wondering is the goal, a flower is by far the greater
>wonder. Something no human, no matter how wealthy or powerful could
>create.

To have a gateless gate, to seek and find, to attain
enlightenment could be a goal for some seekers.

Some viewers viewing a giant statue might believe in the Pure Land
and be saved simply uttering a name of a Buddha, such as, say,
Amitabha, and know they go there immediately.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amitabha

Being dead to life, alive to death, transcending duality, realizing
emptiness, sunyata along the Way some forms may and some knot
so much as to be unable to appreciate a gold ring of a bell chime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunyata

Softer than soft, whether a statue is full
of ideas in its head or the ground on which it sits is
as solid as any atomic structure, impressions may vary.

>>A journey of a thousand steps
>>begins for those who find a path, their Paths.
>>Seeking what is, for them, the Spirit, leads them.
>>
>>How pathetic, the physical/materialist bit-coin people say.
>>Metaphysics. Bah. Humbug. Miners go and count the day.
>>When they too will live as kings and queens and they may.
>
>And create a giant golden statue.

And, charge admission!

>>- ore they might knot ...

- cheers!

[one]

Noah wrote:

>one wrote:
>>Noah wrote:
>>> one wrote:
>>
>>>>Tao Chia's Tao tends to decline, toward the soft and low and contrasts
>>>>with philosophies which suggest the opposites such a high, masculine,
>>>>powerful, yang, etc. Water overcomes the hardest rock patiently.
>>>>
>>>>People have survived for thousands of years farming, weaving
>>>>and doing things which the Tao Te Ching suggests are natural.
>>>
>>>In the orient where such people for centuries were wracked by famine
>>>caused in large part by depredations of warring leaders. Actually
>>>similar to the warring going on in europe at a similar time in world
>>>history. It is not like the leaders were different creatures from the
>>>farming weavers.
>>
>>If there were no leaders, being all mighty and hard power hungry
>>sorts then the farmers may have had their farms left alone.
>>War is said to be not the Way. Nor is high taxation.
>
>Yet leaders are not different creatures.

If, by definition, leaders and followers are not different,
then, by definition, so goes a validity of a set of sayings.

> Leaders would not be leaders
>if farmers/weavers refused to follow.

In the village, the ideal village, a mayor may or
might not be needed aside from being a figure
of some stature the same as a garbage man,
the chief can seeing all the cans collected.

If the leader wants more power, a bigger statue,
then, he, naturally he would be a man among giants,
wanting to make a name for his Elf, he thinks he is.

> Both are part of a social
>structure that says there must be leaders and there must be
>farmers/weavers.

Egalitarian societies may engage in practices and place
no great weight on a position held for a time being.

> If the farmer finds himself without a leader, he and
>his fellows will choose one. The same thing with chickens. If a herd
>looses it's rooster, a hen will take on the role until a new rooster
>is found. The pattern is older than humankind itself.

The Tao Te Ching may suggest how a ruler rules. Be soft, kind,
gentle and invisible. The greatest go unnoticed and when a great
accomplishment is accomplished the people think they did without one.

https://terebess.hu/english/tao/gia.html#Kap17

http://www.mobilewords.pro/Tao/chap17.htm#top

>>>>Imagine, TTC 80 may say, having fine food, clothing, and
>>>>neighbors. A perfect harmony. No need to go nor do.
>>>>Simply be without strife, nor to strive for more.
>>>
>>>Yes, imagine that.
>>
>>A point made in the shade.
>>
>>> Unfortunately, there is another need that humans
>>>feel and seek in addition to fine food and clothing. They seem to
>>>need status one relative to another.
>>
>>The hard-nosed, power-seeking, may have such a need.
>>A point being, don't be as those are. Be soft as the dust, etc.
>
>Both the dust and the rock are needed.

Some sayings might insist dust and rock are not the mountain.
Some may say the mountain is made, made of rock and dust.
Some could see how the mountain is not made, it simply is.

If a leader wanted to make a mountain
he could begin with a small hill of mole powder
and get the people all involved with his construction
project and move a mountain to make his mountain stand
taller than any mountain ever stood before in his land.

Driving his people, his peons and pawns, working them day
after day and long into the night with his knights in dull armor
protecting his land, eventually he drives them into the ground.

Dust they were and dusty they go down to the dust
of which they were formed by none other than the god
he thinks he is, by decree, he says, with his statue ingraved.

>>> Which is how ancient societies
>>>got farmers/weavers and leaders to war with each other.
>>
>>Power corrupts a saying may say.
>
>Indeed. It is the curse of the human condition.

Solutions vary.
Water is said to be a if not the universal solvent.
Some humans on a pale blue dot find their condition poor
or bad or worse and some leaders might say, it's only natural.

Some might try and change the system using might, power, force
and some may say, that's not the Way, use inaction, non-violence,
only to find that a blend of both doesn't work either and then, a few
simply leave such a condition and find solace laced within their minds
and hearts not being all caught up in the drama.

Knowing impermanence, being uninvolved, soteriologies vary.
Being in the world yet not of the world could be a saying.

>>>>There is need for any savior god. Tao is akin to empty space.
>>>>Imagine, TTC 80 continues, having technologies, vehicles
>>>>yet no desire to use them as one is content, totally.
>>>>
>>>>To be content, be as a newborn again.
>>>
>>>Newborns cry a lot.
>>
>>Missing points could be an art.
>
>Assigning a fantasy to a baby could be an art.

Pointers point. Myths may contain grains of truth.
Returning to the Garden, being born again as an infant,
being cared for by the Great Mother, hollow be her name
to those who don't care for such imagined sayings to a point.

>>>>Along with a Tao is Te, virtue.
>>>>TTC 10 may explain.
>>>>TTC 55 articulates further.
>>>
>>>It seems humans have had such teachings for many centuries in various
>>>forms, yet remain much as they were, generally. Meanwhile there are
>>>also, in the population, spiritual athletes who wonder why it is that
>>>all cannot be athletes like them.
>>
>>Given: the Great Dream Drama. The cast of characters contains
>>many who are extras, a few who are stars. Shooting, laughing,
>>forms of the actors change with a scene seen by audience folk.
>
>This is something. There is an undercurrent in religions about how
>the masses are provided as a environment where masters will be able to
>grow and mature. This feels to me like the ultimate ego massage. The
>great lack of compassion.

Canon fodder.
Sets of scripture, writ by men in power, stone them! Stone them all
at once the stones cried out saying, hell know, we won't go.
And so to rock the mountain, the mountain roared as
it shot hot lava and destroyed those wicked men.

Superstitions, animism, beliefs leaving trees of life.
Knowing good and bad how duality breaks branches.
Not touching a tree of a form of knowledge is advised.

>><< "Lady Li was the daughter of the border guard of Ai.
>>When she was first taken captive and brought to the state of Chin,
>>she wept until her tears drenched the collar of her robe. But later,
>>when she went to live in the palace of the ruler, shared his couch
>>with him, and ate the delicious meats of his table, she wondered why
>>she had ever wept. How do I know that the dead do not wonder
>>why they ever longed for life?
>
>How do you know that you have not been corrupted? Like the master who
>accepts that the masses are there so he can learn to be wise.

I get corrupted most every day.
A solution for me is to remain in the day.
To water down the drama, go with a flow.

To know how media pump sensational bits
of a virtual reality to a brain to claim legal tender is
obtained by making it so. And so it is. All in the game.

Being soft on those who get all worked up
about the latest disaster be it natural or man-made, aye,
for me to be able to relate and at the same time
to not identify too much is just fine.

Walking two paths is a saying in the Chuang-tzu.

>The thing that we often miss when taking a pet is that the animal
>exists for itself, not to make you happy, although it might. But for
>itself, it exists to be a cat or dog. The cat, for instance chooses
>to own you or not. You do not own the cat, in the cat's mind. If you
>mistreat your dog, it will run away and seek whatever fortune it can
>find for itself in the world. Perhaps another meal provider, perhaps
>not.

Personally, the private ownership of animated forms of life
including but not limited to, wives, children, horses, fish, dogs,
cats, birds, rodents, reptiles and other such organisms is odd, imo.

To eat them is very strange as well.
From the struggle of a turnip root to a head of cabbage,
forms of life in the plant-world get eaten all the same and different.

>>"He who dreams of drinking wine may weep when morning comes;
>>he who dreams of weeping may in the morning go off to hunt.
>>While he is dreaming he does not know it is a dream, and in his dream
>>he may even try to interpret a dream. Only after he wakes does he know
>>it was a dream. And someday there will be a great awakening when we
>>know that this is all a great dream. Yet the stupid believe they are
>>awake, busily and brightly assuming they understand things, calling
>>this man ruler, that one herdsman - how dense! Confucius and you are
>>both dreaming! And when I say you are dreaming, I am dreaming, too.
>>Words like these will be labeled the Supreme Swindle. Yet, after ten
>>thousand generations, a great sage may appear who will know
>>their meaning, and it will still be as though he appeared
>>with astonishing speed. >> - Watson's version.

https://terebess.hu/english/chuangtzu.html#2

<< Watson's translation >>

What is acceptable we call acceptable; what is unacceptable we call
unacceptable. A road is made by people walking on it; things are so
because they are called so. What makes them so? Making them so makes
them so. What makes them not so? Making them not so makes them not so.
Things all must have that which is so; things all must have that which
is acceptable. There is nothing that is not so,
nothing that is not acceptable.

For this reason, whether you point to a little stalk or a great
pillar, a leper or the beautiful Hsi-shih, things ribald and shady or
things grotesque and strange, the Way makes them all into one. Their
dividedness is their completeness; their complete­ness is their
impairment. No thing is either complete or impaired, but all are made
into one again. Only the man of far­ reaching vision knows how to make
them into one. So he has no use [for categories], but relegates all to
the constant. The constant is the useful; the useful is the passable;
the passable is the successful; and with success, all is accomplished.
He relies upon this alone, relies upon it and does not know he is
doing so. This is called the Way.

But to wear out your brain trying to make things into one without
realizing that they are all the same - this is called "three in the
morning." What do I mean by "three in the morning"? When the monkey
trainer was handing out acorns, he said, "You get three in the morning
and four at night." This made all the monkeys furious. "Well, then,"
he said, "you get four in the morning and three at night." The monkeys
were all delighted. There was no change in the reality behind the
words, and yet the monkeys responded with joy and anger. Let them, if
they want to. So the sage harmonizes with both right and wrong and
rests in Heaven the Equalizer. This is called walking two roads.

<< end of quote >>

[one]

Noah wrote:

>The point is that struggle is the human condition.

Many people struggle, aye.
Some more. Some less. Some, at times, don't.

How to not struggle, some may wonder, why.
Some folks enjoy a good fight. So they do that.

To struggle, to fight the flow, many die.

To let go, to float, some people are as dew.
Their physical bodies condense and evaporate.
Some are none the wiser. Innocent, as little children.

>>Wanting to be a king of the mountain, to have all the gold,
>>all the silver, all the bit-coins in the digital universe is
>>not going to solve all the problems of life.
>
>No, they were not meant to. What were they meant to do?

I have no knowledge of what El Salvador's ruler desired.

Creating new things often has unintended consequences.
The original poster suggested there's a cluster of things
and it was not a very good cluster as a thing in its elf.

For a ruler to struggle might be natural.
To want to be a ruler, for some, natural as well.

Desire may require a form of suffering.

To eliminate suffering, solutions vary.

At times there may be no solution.
Seeking a middle path might be wise.

- caveat emptor

[Noah Sombrero]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2021 08:02:32 -0700, one <be...@apolka.sign> wrote:

>Noah wrote:
>
>>The point is that struggle is the human condition.
>
>Many people struggle, aye.
>Some more. Some less. Some, at times, don't.
>
>How to not struggle, some may wonder, why.
>Some folks enjoy a good fight. So they do that.
>
>To struggle, to fight the flow, many die.
>
>To let go, to float, some people are as dew.
>Their physical bodies condense and evaporate.
>Some are none the wiser. Innocent, as little children.

These also die.

>>>Wanting to be a king of the mountain, to have all the gold,
>>>all the silver, all the bit-coins in the digital universe is
>>>not going to solve all the problems of life.
>>
>>No, they were not meant to. What were they meant to do?
>
>I have no knowledge of what El Salvador's ruler desired.
>
>Creating new things often has unintended consequences.
>The original poster suggested there's a cluster of things
>and it was not a very good cluster as a thing in its elf.
>
>For a ruler to struggle might be natural.
>To want to be a ruler, for some, natural as well.
>
>Desire may require a form of suffering.
>
>To eliminate suffering, solutions vary.
>
>At times there may be no solution.

Yes. Human condition

>Seeking a middle path might be wise.

Or no path.

>- caveat emptor
--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

A flower would be much less likely to be taken as a representation of
power and wealth, the human condition being what it is.

>>>Some who see the giant may wonder.
>>
>>Actually, if wondering is the goal, a flower is by far the greater
>>wonder. Something no human, no matter how wealthy or powerful could
>>create.
>
>To have a gateless gate, to seek and find, to attain
>enlightenment could be a goal for some seekers.
>
>Some viewers viewing a giant statue might believe in the Pure Land
>and be saved simply uttering a name of a Buddha, such as, say,
>Amitabha, and know they go there immediately.

Possibilities being anything.

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amitabha
>
>Being dead to life, alive to death, transcending duality, realizing
>emptiness, sunyata along the Way some forms may and some knot
>so much as to be unable to appreciate a gold ring of a bell chime.

But most would make something out of a giant golden statue.
Appreciation of subtlety not being required.

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunyata
>
>Softer than soft, whether a statue is full
>of ideas in its head or the ground on which it sits is
>as solid as any atomic structure, impressions may vary.
>
>>>A journey of a thousand steps
>>>begins for those who find a path, their Paths.
>>>Seeking what is, for them, the Spirit, leads them.
>>>
>>>How pathetic, the physical/materialist bit-coin people say.
>>>Metaphysics. Bah. Humbug. Miners go and count the day.
>>>When they too will live as kings and queens and they may.
>>
>>And create a giant golden statue.
>
>And, charge admission!

There you go.

>>>- ore they might knot ...
>
>- cheers!

--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

I joined one of those once. They turned out to be much like people
everywhere.

>> If the farmer finds himself without a leader, he and
>>his fellows will choose one. The same thing with chickens. If a herd
>>looses it's rooster, a hen will take on the role until a new rooster
>>is found. The pattern is older than humankind itself.
>
>The Tao Te Ching may suggest how a ruler rules. Be soft, kind,
>gentle and invisible. The greatest go unnoticed and when a great
>accomplishment is accomplished the people think they did without one.

There is the story of ancient greece where a king was kind and not
aggressive. The people turned to cursing him in the streets. He
ceased to go out, maintaining his peaceful ways, and remained king.
The story does say something about human behavior. Not that the king
was peaceful, but that the people wanted something else from him.

It is odd. On the other hand, all life feeds on life. There is no
other way. You can choose which life to eat, but it is life all the
same.

The universe calls it reverse entropy, and says it must happen.

>>>"He who dreams of drinking wine may weep when morning comes;
>>>he who dreams of weeping may in the morning go off to hunt.
>>>While he is dreaming he does not know it is a dream, and in his dream
>>>he may even try to interpret a dream. Only after he wakes does he know
>>>it was a dream. And someday there will be a great awakening when we
>>>know that this is all a great dream. Yet the stupid believe they are
>>>awake, busily and brightly assuming they understand things, calling
>>>this man ruler, that one herdsman - how dense! Confucius and you are
>>>both dreaming! And when I say you are dreaming, I am dreaming, too.
>>>Words like these will be labeled the Supreme Swindle. Yet, after ten
>>>thousand generations, a great sage may appear who will know
>>>their meaning, and it will still be as though he appeared
>>>with astonishing speed. >> - Watson's version.
>
>https://terebess.hu/english/chuangtzu.html#2
>
><< Watson's translation >>
>
>What is acceptable we call acceptable; what is unacceptable we call
>unacceptable. A road is made by people walking on it; things are so
>because they are called so. What makes them so? Making them so makes
>them so. What makes them not so? Making them not so makes them not so.
>Things all must have that which is so; things all must have that which
>is acceptable. There is nothing that is not so,
>nothing that is not acceptable.

There is the acceptable. And what you in your heart wish. Not the
same thing. The acceptable is as you say, whatever works. The wishes
of the heart though, even as they vary between you and me, are not
subject to what works or does not work. Sometimes, a person might
even not be aware of the wishes of his heart.

>For this reason, whether you point to a little stalk or a great
>pillar, a leper or the beautiful Hsi-shih, things ribald and shady or
>things grotesque and strange, the Way makes them all into one. Their
>dividedness is their completeness; their complete­ness is their
>impairment. No thing is either complete or impaired, but all are made
>into one again. Only the man of far­ reaching vision knows how to make
>them into one. So he has no use [for categories], but relegates all to
>the constant. The constant is the useful; the useful is the passable;
>the passable is the successful; and with success, all is accomplished.
>He relies upon this alone, relies upon it and does not know he is
>doing so. This is called the Way.

For me, I will pull this turnip. It makes the wife happy. I wish
that.

>But to wear out your brain trying to make things into one without
>realizing that they are all the same - this is called "three in the
>morning." What do I mean by "three in the morning"? When the monkey
>trainer was handing out acorns, he said, "You get three in the morning
>and four at night." This made all the monkeys furious. "Well, then,"
>he said, "you get four in the morning and three at night." The monkeys
>were all delighted. There was no change in the reality behind the
>words, and yet the monkeys responded with joy and anger. Let them, if
>they want to. So the sage harmonizes with both right and wrong and
>rests in Heaven the Equalizer. This is called walking two roads.
>
><< end of quote >>

--
Noah Sombrero

[mite]

Noah wrote:

>one wrote:
>>Noah wrote:
>>
>>>The point is that struggle is the human condition.
>>
>>Many people struggle, aye.
>>Some more. Some less. Some, at times, don't.
>>
>>How to not struggle, some may wonder, why.
>>Some folks enjoy a good fight. So they do that.

Boxers box in square rings as bells take their toll.
Canners can worms with lids as frogs leap out of shadows.
Shadow boxing in the light waves an ocean of mind casts await.

>>To struggle, to fight the flow, many die.
>>
>>To let go, to float, some people are as dew.
>>Their physical bodies condense and evaporate.
>>Some are none the wiser. Innocent, as little children.
>
>These also die.

Physical death tends to occur with physical bodies.
Spiritual death may occur when a form of learning takes place.

To assume some one is some body might be taught and
being too taut snap with their map crumpled and folded.

Little children, given names, first and last names, could be bound
by those names without realizing how names work to a point.

Some readers might wonder, or not, why do some sacred texts
suggest a return to being as a small child or even a newborn?

What would be the point of such sayings?

After all, a writer mite writes, human conditions condition humans
to believe, to know, they'll all die and are all doomed to suffer.

Why would any all grown-up so-called individual care to be free
of concerns, woes, ills, suffering, death and other such knots?

Why did Buddhism find fertile ground, or Christianity flourish.
What does Tao Chia bring to any seeker's awareness ever.

Some people may find freedom, relief, salvation while alive
as they die an ego death, an old self or some other form
in mind held to at a certain time and are free as they
were, innocent, able to see the wonder of being
beyond what they thought they were in some
adult life which only brought strife and war.

>>>>Wanting to be a king of the mountain, to have all the gold,
>>>>all the silver, all the bit-coins in the digital universe is
>>>>not going to solve all the problems of life.
>>>
>>>No, they were not meant to. What were they meant to do?
>>
>>I have no knowledge of what El Salvador's ruler desired.
>>
>>Creating new things often has unintended consequences.
>>The original poster suggested there's a cluster of things
>>and it was not a very good cluster as a thing in its elf.
>>
>>For a ruler to struggle might be natural.
>>To want to be a ruler, for some, natural as well.
>>
>>Desire may require a form of suffering.
>>
>>To eliminate suffering, solutions vary.
>>
>>At times there may be no solution.
>
>Yes. Human condition

Many are doomed. For them, no alchemy exists.
No rebirth while held in the grips of physical/materialism.

>>Seeking a middle path might be wise.
>
>Or no path.

Without down, up might not be found.
To shoot an arrow forward, it's pulled backward.
Struggles, for some people, are able to provide a means.

>>- caveat emptor

Round and round a merry go went up
and down a stream of being a time being.
To row a boat was out of a question, what is
life if not but a dream. A game. A school. A prison.

- metaphors vary ...

[liaM]

On 9/11/2021 2:05 PM, mite wrote:

>
> Round and round a merry go went up
> and down a stream of being a time being.
> To row a boat was out of a question, what is
> life if not but a dream. A game. A school. A prison.
>
> - metaphors vary ...
>

a school's a good metaphor for absfg - the schoolyard, especially :)

[Noah Sombrero]

On Sat, 11 Sep 2021 05:05:03 -0700, mite <b...@apolka.sign> wrote:

>Noah wrote:
>>one wrote:
>>>Noah wrote:
>>>
>>>>The point is that struggle is the human condition.
>>>
>>>Many people struggle, aye.
>>>Some more. Some less. Some, at times, don't.
>>>
>>>How to not struggle, some may wonder, why.
>>>Some folks enjoy a good fight. So they do that.

Or enjoy the view from their prison cell knowing that in or out it is
all the same. The only freedom is in their minds, or not. Even that
having practical limits, and no theoretical limits.

>Boxers box in square rings as bells take their toll.
>Canners can worms with lids as frogs leap out of shadows.
>Shadow boxing in the light waves an ocean of mind casts await.
>
>>>To struggle, to fight the flow, many die.
>>>
>>>To let go, to float, some people are as dew.
>>>Their physical bodies condense and evaporate.
>>>Some are none the wiser. Innocent, as little children.
>>
>>These also die.
>
>Physical death tends to occur with physical bodies.
>Spiritual death may occur when a form of learning takes place.

It is possible to imagine.

>To assume some one is some body might be taught and
>being too taut snap with their map crumpled and folded.
>
>Little children, given names, first and last names, could be bound
>by those names without realizing how names work to a point.
>
>Some readers might wonder, or not, why do some sacred texts
>suggest a return to being as a small child or even a newborn?
>
>What would be the point of such sayings?
>
>After all, a writer mite writes, human conditions condition humans
>to believe, to know, they'll all die and are all doomed to suffer.
>
>Why would any all grown-up so-called individual care to be free
>of concerns, woes, ills, suffering, death and other such knots?
>
>Why did Buddhism find fertile ground, or Christianity flourish.
>What does Tao Chia bring to any seeker's awareness ever.

Because these teachings speak to something inside some, or not.
It is not required to assume more than that.

>Some people may find freedom, relief, salvation while alive
>as they die an ego death, an old self or some other form
>in mind held to at a certain time and are free as they
>were, innocent, able to see the wonder of being
>beyond what they thought they were in some
>adult life which only brought strife and war.

The difficulty of seeing the wonder does not depend on circumstance.
Also the need to assume more than the wonder that appears if it
appears.

>>>>>Wanting to be a king of the mountain, to have all the gold,
>>>>>all the silver, all the bit-coins in the digital universe is
>>>>>not going to solve all the problems of life.
>>>>
>>>>No, they were not meant to. What were they meant to do?
>>>
>>>I have no knowledge of what El Salvador's ruler desired.
>>>
>>>Creating new things often has unintended consequences.
>>>The original poster suggested there's a cluster of things
>>>and it was not a very good cluster as a thing in its elf.
>>>
>>>For a ruler to struggle might be natural.
>>>To want to be a ruler, for some, natural as well.
>>>
>>>Desire may require a form of suffering.
>>>
>>>To eliminate suffering, solutions vary.
>>>
>>>At times there may be no solution.
>>
>>Yes. Human condition
>
>Many are doomed. For them, no alchemy exists.
>No rebirth while held in the grips of physical/materialism.

The glory of my personal fate, if it has any, looses its savor in the
face of that doom.

>>>Seeking a middle path might be wise.
>>
>>Or no path.
>
>Without down, up might not be found.
>To shoot an arrow forward, it's pulled backward.
>Struggles, for some people, are able to provide a means.
>
>>>- caveat emptor
>
>Round and round a merry go went up
>and down a stream of being a time being.
>To row a boat was out of a question, what is
>life if not but a dream. A game. A school. A prison.

Here, get up off of that old philosopher's bench, and look out of the
prison window. Such a fine day it is.

>- metaphors vary ...
--
Noah Sombrero

[mite]

Noah wrote:
> one rephrased:
>> Noah wrote:
>>> one surmised:

>>>>A massive golden statue could plant a seed.
>>>
>>>Or it could represent great wealth and power.
>>
>>Interpretations tend to vary.
>>The interpretation that is an interpretation
>>isn't necessarily the one and only One, naturally.
>
>A flower would be much less likely to be taken as a representation of
>power and wealth, the human condition being what it is.

Some wanderers in a rose garden might find thorns
and see the metaphor as the vinegar tasters found.

Seeing only outward forms, a giant golden statue
of some Buddha, the greedy mite sees only gold.
Wow, he mite says, that's more than a ton of gold.

To which, an other mite says, hmm, and is the Buddha
a form that is akin to all forms that appear to be and is a
that one a mere outward form and is it not as hollow within.

Appearing to appear as if it is more than a ton of gold, is it
really not more like a thin skin, gold plated. And is it real gold
or does it appear to be gold for the sake of appearances.

One day, the two mites were walking in a rose garden when
suddenly a third mite appeared and said, hunger strikes me.
Please feed me. Hunger is my condition with regularity. Who
or what is able to free me of this round of natural conditioning?

He mite says, in response, all bodies get hungry, naturally.
And you are your body so, too bad, get used to it.

To which the other mite suggests a rhetorical quest-
ion of sorts to the third mite, are you your physical self alone.

Is that all you are, separate from all forms as your form
forms in your mind with a sigh, the other mite asks.

How attached are you,
the other mite asked of the third. How hungry
and how often are you hungry and would you prefer
to be enlightned as does that giant statue represent of a Buddha?

Then the third mite shrugged and said the answer was unknown.
There was no Path at the time. The statue being just a form.

- without meaning ...

[one]

Noah wrote:
> one wrote:
>> Noah wrote:

>>> Both are part of a social
>>>structure that says there must be leaders and there must be
>>>farmers/weavers.
>>
>>Egalitarian societies may engage in practices and place
>>no great weight on a position held for a time being.
>
>I joined one of those once. They turned out to be much like people
>everywhere.

Wheels might be reinvented time
after time and agriculture as well which
then provides a means to store food for a winter.

Managers could spring from the ground to manage
as naturally as any weed or fruit is found around.
Mice and cats, wolves and domesticated forms
of life might evolve after an asteroid strikes.

When super-volcanoes spread ashes to ashes
and dust to dust some leaders may lead and
some followers follow, naturally until one
day a bit-coin is minted one more time.

Civilization rebuilt after a coronal mass ejection shut
down all global communication one day giving stock
market holders their coronaries naturally.

In between times, during the shut-down, small villages
with their denizens able to farm just as well without any
virtual money nor needing any money at all did very well.

Their carts and boats were not needed as they kneaded
bread for their tables. Weaving fine clothing they survived
without any global civilization nor market forces. Their many
computers sat idle with screens blank, naturally until one fine
sunny Sunday the sun known as the Sun returned bright and
it was clear their bliss was about to change once again.

- as the storm troopers stormed in, again ...

[one]

Noah wrote:

> one wrote:

>>The Tao Te Ching may suggest how a ruler rules. Be soft, kind,
>>gentle and invisible. The greatest go unnoticed and when a great
>>accomplishment is accomplished the people think they did without one.
>
>There is the story of ancient greece where a king was kind and not
>aggressive. The people turned to cursing him in the streets. He
>ceased to go out, maintaining his peaceful ways, and remained king.
>The story does say something about human behavior. Not that the king
>was peaceful, but that the people wanted something else from him.

What did they want?

[Noah Sombrero]

On Sat, 11 Sep 2021 05:28:22 -0700, mite <be...@apolka.sign> wrote:

>Noah wrote:
>> one rephrased:
>>> Noah wrote:
>>>> one surmised:
>
>>>>>A massive golden statue could plant a seed.
>>>>
>>>>Or it could represent great wealth and power.
>>>
>>>Interpretations tend to vary.
>>>The interpretation that is an interpretation
>>>isn't necessarily the one and only One, naturally.
>>
>>A flower would be much less likely to be taken as a representation of
>>power and wealth, the human condition being what it is.
>
>Some wanderers in a rose garden might find thorns
>and see the metaphor as the vinegar tasters found.

So plant daisies.

And so the philosophers wander off not thinking to look out of the
prison window.
--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

There being no such place.

>- as the storm troopers stormed in, again ...

If there were, the storm troopers would certainly be charmed and sit
down to the table with bread.
--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

One could only imagine. Imagine, for instance, they wanted a leader
who was fierce and ready to effectively lead them against the
inevitable invader armies. Or something. Our feeble imaginations do
not undo the point of the story, which has its roots in the beyond
time pattern where social animals of various stripes choose leaders
that dominate and defend the group. Turkeys, wolves, baboons.
--
Noah Sombrero

[one]

Noah wrote:
> one wrote:
>> Noah wrote:

>>>The thing that we often miss when taking a pet is that the animal
>>>exists for itself, not to make you happy, although it might. But for
>>>itself, it exists to be a cat or dog. The cat, for instance chooses
>>>to own you or not. You do not own the cat, in the cat's mind. If you
>>>mistreat your dog, it will run away and seek whatever fortune it can
>>>find for itself in the world. Perhaps another meal provider, perhaps
>>>not.
>>
>>Personally, the private ownership of animated forms of life
>>including but not limited to, wives, children, horses, fish, dogs,
>>cats, birds, rodents, reptiles and other such organisms is odd, imo.
>>
>>To eat them is very strange as well.
>>From the struggle of a turnip root to a head of cabbage,
>>forms of life in the plant-world get eaten all the same and different.
>
>It is odd. On the other hand, all life feeds on life. There is no
>other way. You can choose which life to eat, but it is life all the
>same.
>
>The universe calls it reverse entropy, and says it must happen.

Some of the many Ways may suggest light exists, and air.
Being able to live on air and light, people do, for a time.
Few bodies, forms of life, eat continually and yet
most forms breathe without any cease.

Between the creases what ceases is hunger.

Some people, thinking, knowing they are their bodies
and only those bodies of theirs calling them, my, mine,
might be almost entirely unaware of there being more.

As an atmosphere breathes them in to being and exhales
their minds they are their outside as well as inside a skin.

Being their families, tribes, nations and having a global
sense of self some forms of their consciousness expand
and encompass an entire universe, the Universe is what
is contained within their minds.

Yet few may think, know, they are that.
Given: a Mind only school of thought.

- tat vam asi ...

[aye]

Noah wrote:

> Chuang Tzu wrote:

>>https://terebess.hu/english/chuangtzu.html#2
>>
>><< Watson's translation >>
>>
>>What is acceptable we call acceptable; what is unacceptable we call
>>unacceptable. A road is made by people walking on it; things are so
>>because they are called so. What makes them so? Making them so makes
>>them so. What makes them not so? Making them not so makes them not so.
>>Things all must have that which is so; things all must have that which
>>is acceptable. There is nothing that is not so,
>>nothing that is not acceptable.
>
>There is the acceptable. And what you in your heart wish. Not the
>same thing.

Seeing things as different, things appear as different.

Knowing all Paths the same, all Paths are the same
eclectic, syncretistic, New Age, New Thought mind games.

> The acceptable is as you say, whatever works.

The Chuang-tzu says as it is translated to say. Funny tales
told in story form forms much of its many chapters. Points
pointed to are cofirmed and then exchanged for other
forms as they too are contained in its coverage of
ages to a point as the Ways are Ways and yet
none are always the Way as if there were a.

> The wishes
>of the heart though, even as they vary between you and me, are not
>subject to what works or does not work. Sometimes, a person might
>even not be aware of the wishes of his heart.

Aye, agree.

>>For this reason, whether you point to a little stalk or a great
>>pillar, a leper or the beautiful Hsi-shih, things ribald and shady or
>>things grotesque and strange, the Way makes them all into one. Their
>>dividedness is their completeness; their complete­ness is their
>>impairment. No thing is either complete or impaired, but all are made
>>into one again. Only the man of far­ reaching vision knows how to make
>>them into one. So he has no use [for categories], but relegates all to
>>the constant. The constant is the useful; the useful is the passable;
>>the passable is the successful; and with success, all is accomplished.
>>He relies upon this alone, relies upon it and does not know he is
>>doing so. This is called the Way.
>
>For me, I will pull this turnip. It makes the wife happy. I wish
>that.

Happy life. We agree again!

>>But to wear out your brain trying to make things into one without
>>realizing that they are all the same - this is called "three in the
>>morning." What do I mean by "three in the morning"? When the monkey
>>trainer was handing out acorns, he said, "You get three in the morning
>>and four at night." This made all the monkeys furious. "Well, then,"
>>he said, "you get four in the morning and three at night." The monkeys
>>were all delighted. There was no change in the reality behind the
>>words, and yet the monkeys responded with joy and anger. Let them, if
>>they want to. So the sage harmonizes with both right and wrong and
>>rests in Heaven the Equalizer. This is called walking two roads.
>>
>><< end of quote >>

- Cheers!

[Noah Sombrero]

This must be metaphor. Atmosphere does not such thing. So what is
the meaning of this metaphor? If not actually inside and outside
skin, then what?

>Being their families, tribes, nations and having a global
>sense of self some forms of their consciousness expand
>and encompass an entire universe, the Universe is what
>is contained within their minds.
>
>Yet few may think, know, they are that.
>Given: a Mind only school of thought.
>
>- tat vam asi ...

--
Noah Sombrero

[one]

liaM wrote:

>a school's a good metaphor for absfg - the schoolyard, especially :)

Recess can be fun!

- oar knots ... Cheers!

[one]

Noah wrote:

> one wrote:

>>Why did Buddhism find fertile ground, or Christianity flourish.
>>What does Tao Chia bring to any seeker's awareness ever.
>
>Because these teachings speak to something inside some, or not.

Aye, agree. A child within like
an innocense which in no sense means
a thing beyond being free can be for many people.

>It is not required to assume more than that.

Agree again. No need to assume a saying means other than
what a saying says aside from the point being made, if any.

>>Some people may find freedom, relief, salvation while alive
>>as they die an ego death, an old self or some other form
>>in mind held to at a certain time and are free as they
>>were, innocent, able to see the wonder of being
>>beyond what they thought they were in some
>>adult life which only brought strife and war.
>
>The difficulty of seeing the wonder does not depend on circumstance.
>Also the need to assume more than the wonder that appears if it
>appears.

Totally agree.
And yet, a part of me, asks why.
Why do forms of life eat other forms for example.
How strange and odd that phenomenon is.
Is there more than chemistry, entropy,
physical/material structure at play.

No need to wonder why.
No need to wonder at all.
What is, is. That's a given.

To assume a what
goes without question, usually.
Same pronoun-thing with a who, as if who
is in charge or who some body or some one is.
As if there were a who or a what, two begin width.

No needs can be.
No worms nor boxes with frogs.

- cheers!

[one]

Noah wrote:

> one wrote:

>>Round and round a merry go went up
>>and down a stream of being a time being.
>>To row a boat was out of a question, what is
>>life if not but a dream. A game. A school. A prison.
>
>Here, get up off of that old philosopher's bench, and look out of the
>prison window. Such a fine day it is.

For some, life is a prison.
For some, life is a school.

A game of hide and seek works for me,
along with tag, and any one being it,
from a god to an individual form of
Being unless Nonbeing is what is.

- ontologically speaking ...

[Noah Sombrero]

On Sat, 11 Sep 2021 11:21:59 -0700, one <be...@apolka.sign> wrote:

>Noah wrote:
>> one wrote:
>
>>>Why did Buddhism find fertile ground, or Christianity flourish.
>>>What does Tao Chia bring to any seeker's awareness ever.
>>
>>Because these teachings speak to something inside some, or not.
>
>Aye, agree. A child within like
>an innocense which in no sense means
>a thing beyond being free can be for many people.
>
>>It is not required to assume more than that.
>
>Agree again. No need to assume a saying means other than
>what a saying says aside from the point being made, if any.
>
>>>Some people may find freedom, relief, salvation while alive
>>>as they die an ego death, an old self or some other form
>>>in mind held to at a certain time and are free as they
>>>were, innocent, able to see the wonder of being
>>>beyond what they thought they were in some
>>>adult life which only brought strife and war.
>>
>>The difficulty of seeing the wonder does not depend on circumstance.
>>Also the need to assume more than the wonder that appears if it
>>appears.
>
>Totally agree.
>And yet, a part of me, asks why.
>Why do forms of life eat other forms for example.

Because life is not what it seems. Something is going on at the
molecular level of which we have no sense. Energy from the sun is
being recycled endlessly until it finally dissipates and more energy
is required from the sun. Plants trap that energy for us and we eat
the plants or other animals that eat the plants. Eating is how that
energy is transferred from one creature to another. And so the cycle
continues.

Perhaps the strangest thing of all: every atom in your body was
created inside a giant star that later went nova. There is no other
way for atoms larger than hydrogen to happen, as far as humans can
tell. So, then, as smart as we are, as mystical as we believe
ourselves to be, we are no more than those star born atoms allow/make
us to be.

>How strange and odd that phenomenon is.
>Is there more than chemistry, entropy,
>physical/material structure at play.

There is no reason to suppose there is, although it would comfort us
to know that there is, as desiring that the universe should have
understandable things in mind and understandable reasons for what it
does, as we are.

The bible does say that "the rocks themselves cry out against this
system" without explaining what system that is or why the rocks don't
like it.

>No need to wonder why.
>No need to wonder at all.
>What is, is. That's a given.
>
>To assume a what
>goes without question, usually.
>Same pronoun-thing with a who, as if who
>is in charge or who some body or some one is.
>As if there were a who or a what, two begin width.
>
>No needs can be.
>No worms nor boxes with frogs.
>
>- cheers!

--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

On Sat, 11 Sep 2021 11:24:32 -0700, one <be...@apolka.sign> wrote:

>Noah wrote:
>> one wrote:
>
>>>Round and round a merry go went up
>>>and down a stream of being a time being.
>>>To row a boat was out of a question, what is
>>>life if not but a dream. A game. A school. A prison.
>>
>>Here, get up off of that old philosopher's bench, and look out of the
>>prison window. Such a fine day it is.
>
>For some, life is a prison.
>For some, life is a school.

For some, life is a turnip to make the wife happy.

>A game of hide and seek works for me,
>along with tag, and any one being it,
>from a god to an individual form of
>Being unless Nonbeing is what is.
>
>- ontologically speaking ...

--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

On Sat, 11 Sep 2021 14:49:30 -0400, Noah Sombrero <fed...@fea.st>
wrote:

In other words, whatever humans do, it is atoms and energy from the
stars doing it. It is not clear how much this thinking machine in our
heads has to do with it. Designed for the purpose of efficiently
acquiring food, water and shelter as it is. It could be that the
designer decided the machine was a little too smart for its own good,
so it become necessary to confuse the languages and disperse the
tribes, or something. Maybe. Could be a lot more humility would
serve us well.

[one]

Noah wrote:

> mite wrote:
>> Noah wrote:
>>> one rephrased:
>>>> Noah wrote:
>>>>> one surmised:
>>
>>>>>>A massive golden statue could plant a seed.
>>>>>
>>>>>Or it could represent great wealth and power.
>>>>
>>>>Interpretations tend to vary.
>>>>The interpretation that is an interpretation
>>>>isn't necessarily the one and only One, naturally.
>>>
>>>A flower would be much less likely to be taken as a representation of
>>>power and wealth, the human condition being what it is.
>>
>>Some wanderers in a rose garden might find thorns
>>and see the metaphor as the vinegar tasters found.
>
>So plant daisies.

Lao Tzu smiled.
Can't recall the difference
between Confucius and some Buddha.

Hang on for just a line between time to read a caption.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinegar_tasters

<< Confucianism saw life as sour, in need of rules to correct the
degeneration of people; Buddhism saw life as bitter, dominated by pain
and suffering due to attaching possessions and material desires; and
Taoism saw life as sweet due to being fundamentally perfect in its
natural state. >>

Some folk might want to rip out the roses and plant daises, to destroy
all icons and symbols, graven images in their mind sighs.

<< Another interpretation of the painting is that,
since the three men are gathered around one vat of vinegar,
the "three teachings" are one. >>

Some are stuck behind bars.
Some are standing in front of a bar.

Once upon a time, three philosophers
walked into a bar and a horse who was there
at the time said, wow, you'd think one of them
would have seen it and ducked.

Just then a form of life walked under the doors
of the bar without opening them like a duck. It then
went on to quack, just like a duck. Yet when asked what
it was it said, why do you suppose I'm a what?

- who knew ...

[one]

Noah wrote:

> one wrote:

>>When super-volcanoes spread ashes to ashes
>>and dust to dust some leaders may lead and
>>some followers follow, naturally until one
>>day a bit-coin is minted one more time.
>>
>>Civilization rebuilt after a coronal mass ejection shut
>>down all global communication one day giving stock
>>market holders their coronaries naturally.
>>
>>In between times, during the shut-down, small villages
>>with their denizens able to farm just as well without any
>>virtual money nor needing any money at all did very well.
>>
>>Their carts and boats were not needed as they kneaded
>>bread for their tables. Weaving fine clothing they survived
>>without any global civilization nor market forces. Their many
>>computers sat idle with screens blank, naturally until one fine
>>sunny Sunday the sun known as the Sun returned bright and
>>it was clear their bliss was about to change once again.
>
>There being no such place.

The futures place all bets on the market forces forcing
people who put stock in how things will be yet are not.

>>- as the storm troopers stormed in, again ...
>
>If there were, the storm troopers would certainly be charmed and sit
>down to the table with bread.

Especially since they bought bit coins at half price
when the prices began their slide just after the
asteroid appeared in the skies above them.

- betting on the futures ...

[Noah Sombrero]

And some others might want to gently replace some of the roses if it
should become necessary.

Not that destroying images is good, but that helping wandering souls
avoid error might be good.

Because here you are in the middle of my mind breaking story.

>- who knew ...
--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

On Sat, 11 Sep 2021 12:46:27 -0700, one <be...@apolka.sign> wrote:

>Noah wrote:
>> one wrote:
>
>>>When super-volcanoes spread ashes to ashes
>>>and dust to dust some leaders may lead and
>>>some followers follow, naturally until one
>>>day a bit-coin is minted one more time.
>>>
>>>Civilization rebuilt after a coronal mass ejection shut
>>>down all global communication one day giving stock
>>>market holders their coronaries naturally.
>>>
>>>In between times, during the shut-down, small villages
>>>with their denizens able to farm just as well without any
>>>virtual money nor needing any money at all did very well.
>>>
>>>Their carts and boats were not needed as they kneaded
>>>bread for their tables. Weaving fine clothing they survived
>>>without any global civilization nor market forces. Their many
>>>computers sat idle with screens blank, naturally until one fine
>>>sunny Sunday the sun known as the Sun returned bright and
>>>it was clear their bliss was about to change once again.
>>
>>There being no such place.
>
>The futures place all bets on the market forces forcing
>people who put stock in how things will be yet are not.

No accounting for the ways people can be parted with their money.
Me, I don't bet. But if I find a table with bread, I will surely sit
down to it.

>>>- as the storm troopers stormed in, again ...
>>
>>If there were, the storm troopers would certainly be charmed and sit
>>down to the table with bread.
>
>Especially since they bought bit coins at half price
>when the prices began their slide just after the
>asteroid appeared in the skies above them.
>
>- betting on the futures ...

--
Noah Sombrero

[one]

Noah wrote:

I had no idea those social animals listed choose leaders.

My impression was that the alpha types battle each other
and a pecking order is established. Not like a democracy.

- hmmm

[one]

Noah wrote:

> one wrote:

>>As an atmosphere breathes them in to being and exhales
>>their minds they are their outside as well as inside a skin.
>
>This must be metaphor.

It could be.
Perhaps it must be, if it must be.

> Atmosphere does not such thing.

An atmosphere of Being brings all things
under its umbrella to be each and every being.

An ocean of Life contains all forms of Life
and as they are who are its forms form, to say
it is the ocean that forms them might be a metaphor.

Some sayings might insist Life doesn't form its forms.
Life is stupid. Life doesn't even exist. Life is just a word.

> So what is
>the meaning of this metaphor?

If it is a metaphor, it could mean, Pneuma or
Ruah; perhaps NeShamah or even, Spirit.

> If not actually inside and outside
>skin, then what?

Then they would be their skin, maybe.

An it may be some people say they are only their body,
what is inside of their skin while others include their skin.

Being some body, only the skin and what's inside,
some might not consider their outside as being them.

In the beginning, once upon a time, all there was,
was Outside Only. Goose-eggs, except different.

There were no eggs, nor geese at first. Only Outside
was all that was there was until gradually the Great Outside,
called GO, turned its Elf outside in and that was when a cell was.

Some saw it as a prison.
Others viewed it as a school.

- metaphors varied ...

[Noah Sombrero]

Each in their own way. Voting is a recent human way. Ancient kings
usually got there some other way. Very often it was a matter of the
most bad of the bad asses reaches the throne until a new baddie arose
to assassinate the old or defeat him in battle. Something like
pecking human style.

Voting does put a little shine on the whole process.
--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

On Sat, 11 Sep 2021 13:43:02 -0700, one <be...@apolka.sign> wrote:

>Noah wrote:
>> one wrote:
>
>>>As an atmosphere breathes them in to being and exhales
>>>their minds they are their outside as well as inside a skin.
>>
>>This must be metaphor.
>
>It could be.
>Perhaps it must be, if it must be.
>
>> Atmosphere does not such thing.
>
>An atmosphere of Being brings all things
>under its umbrella to be each and every being.
>
>An ocean of Life contains all forms of Life
>and as they are who are its forms form, to say
>it is the ocean that forms them might be a metaphor.

To be the container does not mean to be the bringer into being.

>Some sayings might insist Life doesn't form its forms.
>Life is stupid. Life doesn't even exist. Life is just a word.

Life is a sun driven chemical cycle, and from our current perspective
seems remarkably inventive and intelligent, perhaps sentient, or not.

>> So what is
>>the meaning of this metaphor?
>
>If it is a metaphor, it could mean, Pneuma or
>Ruah; perhaps NeShamah or even, Spirit.

Spirit perhaps, about which we can barely speculate. To say
"atmosphere" suggests that we know a lot more about this postulated
force than otherwise. Not a justified suggesting.

>> If not actually inside and outside
>>skin, then what?
>
>Then they would be their skin, maybe.

It sounds like we are getting closer to admitting we don't know much
about the whole business.

>An it may be some people say they are only their body,
>what is inside of their skin while others include their skin.
>
>Being some body, only the skin and what's inside,
>some might not consider their outside as being them.
>
>In the beginning, once upon a time, all there was,
>was Outside Only. Goose-eggs, except different.
>
>There were no eggs, nor geese at first. Only Outside
>was all that was there was until gradually the Great Outside,
>called GO, turned its Elf outside in and that was when a cell was.
>
>Some saw it as a prison.
>Others viewed it as a school.
>
>- metaphors varied ...

--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

On Sat, 11 Sep 2021 17:11:44 -0400, Noah Sombrero <fed...@fea.st>
wrote:

So how does henpeckery work for humans? You won't find many better
examples of it than right here in short fat guy.

The r's and the d's each struggle to paste the other side with some
accusation and make it stick. So that it reduces the support for the
other guy (mostly for allowing himself to get pasted. The content is
not nearly so important), and makes your support admire you for your
pasting mastery.

tRump's great contribution to politics is that truth of the accusation
is not considered. In fact, your supporters will admire you more for
pasting a falsehood, because it shows greater mastery. And the r's
will love it when the d's get outraged by the shenanigan.

The other part of tRump's contribution is that pastery by his
opponents only make his supporters love him more, could not reduce
their admiration for him. He grabs pussies? Oh, glory, that's our
guy. This is something the d's have yet to realize, I suspect. The
more outrageous he was the more the media obsessed with it, the more
outraged the opposition was, and the more his supporters loved it.
tRump was bullet proof.

He is out of the media's eye now. There is hope that 4 years of being
ignored will make his supporters forget.

And finally, this pattern is one of the things that evolution demands
of humans now. They simply must stop choosing psychopaths (or
narcissists) for leaders.
--
Noah Sombrero

[one]

Noah wrote:
> one wrote:
>
>>Why do forms of life eat other forms for example.
>
>Because life is not what it seems. Something is going on at the
>molecular level of which we have no sense. Energy from the sun is
>being recycled endlessly until it finally dissipates and more energy
>is required from the sun.

More energy is required?

> Plants trap that energy for us and we eat
>the plants or other animals that eat the plants.

Plants trap energy, for us?

> Eating is how that
>energy is transferred from one creature to another.

Looking at the phenomenon as such, aye, agree.
Calling living beings, creatures, can be done.

> And so the cycle
>continues.
>
>Perhaps the strangest thing of all: every atom in your body was
>created inside a giant star that later went nova.

The word, created,
is an interesting word. Made, is
another one. Transformed can be one as well.

> There is no other
>way for atoms larger than hydrogen to happen,

Hydrogen, and helium, as astro-physics tells me,
using a model based on observation, formed,
or transformed, before stars were born.

People appear to be more than half, hydrogen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composition_of_the_human_body

Most of the atoms in a body, therefore, emerged
not from inside giant stars but, rather earlier.

> as far as humans can tell.

Observers, using red-shift light spectra as a source,
may tell a tale and call it, science. To explain why life
grew out of non-life, and why forms eat each other,
using science, might satisfy a scientific mind set
on that map or that Way of explaining, noun-
things thought to exist by thought.

> So, then, as smart as we are, as mystical as we believe
>ourselves to be, we are no more than those star born atoms allow/make
>us to be.

From a physical/materialist pov, such a Way is a Way.
If that Way of explaining noun-things is okay, then t'hats t'hat.

From an occult/hidden in plane site view, who holds the spoon
is a story told to explain how noun-things are. Eating may
remain an untold story.

>>How strange and odd that phenomenon is.
>>Is there more than chemistry, entropy,
>>physical/material structure at play.
>
>There is no reason to suppose there is,

For you, perhaps, obviously, there is no reason.

For me, even though I am able to know, it is the physicist,
the chemist, the biologist and other scientists who create or invent
maps to map various phenomena and then assume their maps,
their theories, explain away a mystery, their maps are
not the territories, naturally. Maps aren't all that.

> although it would comfort us
>to know that there is, as desiring that the universe should have
>understandable things in mind and understandable reasons for what it
>does, as we are.

Once upon a time a physicist and a mystic were sitting at a table.
The physicist said, look. Look how when I pour this milk into coffee,
it swirls around just like the Milky Way Galaxy. That's how it works.

The mystic then pointed saying, yes, and look. Look at who is
holding the spoon, stirring the milk into the coffee.

>The bible does say that "the rocks themselves cry out against this
>system" without explaining what system that is or why the rocks don't
>like it.

Rocks don't like the system?

- hmmm

[one]

Noah wrote:

> whatever humans do, it is atoms and energy from the
>stars doing it. It is not clear how much this thinking machine in our
>heads has to do with it.

Some people, using their minds, and,
presumably their brains, find
what they call, atoms.

Many people, using their words, define,
what is called, by them, energy.

A thinking, so-called, machine,
can be said to have every, noun-thing,
to do with what people do with their language.

From a quantum field theoretical frame of reference,
fields are what are at quantum levels, given: a pov.

To suppose what emerges from a thinking machine
emerges from the micro to the macro is counter-factual.

In fact, the quantum levels, all the quanta, the amounts
of little bits emerge from the so-called, thinking machine.

Ontologically, first, as a given, is a thinking machine, as fact.
Exactly what the machine invents or discovers to explain
what appears to the sensors of the machine, varies.

> Designed for the purpose of efficiently
>acquiring food, water and shelter as it is.

Designed?

> It could be that the
>designer decided the machine was a little too smart for its own good,
>so it become necessary to confuse the languages and disperse the
>tribes, or something. Maybe.

The paranoid god theory may work
to explain why so many languages languish.

Origin stories, myths, vary.

Given: a god known as God, people were created to garden
in the Garden, and one special one was called on to name
all of the many animated forms the god, God, created.

> Could be a lot more humility would
>serve us well.

A pale blue dot world works for me seeing how small
an orb appears from near Saturn's rings can be
where a surface dweller dwells all's wells.

- on topics and off we go! Cheers!

[Noah Sombrero]

On Sun, 12 Sep 2021 05:38:20 -0700, one <be...@apolka.sign> wrote:

>Noah wrote:
>> one wrote:
>>
>>>Why do forms of life eat other forms for example.
>>
>>Because life is not what it seems. Something is going on at the
>>molecular level of which we have no sense. Energy from the sun is
>>being recycled endlessly until it finally dissipates and more energy
>>is required from the sun.
>
>More energy is required?
>
>> Plants trap that energy for us and we eat
>>the plants or other animals that eat the plants.
>
>Plants trap energy, for us?
>
>> Eating is how that
>>energy is transferred from one creature to another.
>
>Looking at the phenomenon as such, aye, agree.
>Calling living beings, creatures, can be done.

And so far humans have not been able to find living beings (otherwise
known as creatures) living under any other system.

>> And so the cycle
>>continues.
>>
>>Perhaps the strangest thing of all: every atom in your body was
>>created inside a giant star that later went nova.
>
>The word, created,
>is an interesting word. Made, is
>another one. Transformed can be one as well.

Fused, by fusion. The word to use is not so important, as long as we
understand what we are talking about.

>> There is no other
>>way for atoms larger than hydrogen to happen,
>
>Hydrogen, and helium, as astro-physics tells me,
>using a model based on observation, formed,
>or transformed, before stars were born.
>
>People appear to be more than half, hydrogen.

As a component of water, which must be formed in a fusion engine of
some sort. There is a different sort of fusion engine that stars?
Considering the enormous energy required and emitted, this engine
would need to appear very much like a star.

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composition_of_the_human_body
>
>Most of the atoms in a body, therefore, emerged
>not from inside giant stars but, rather earlier.
>> as far as humans can tell.
>
>Observers, using red-shift light spectra as a source,
>may tell a tale and call it, science. To explain why life
>grew out of non-life, and why forms eat each other,
>using science, might satisfy a scientific mind set
>on that map or that Way of explaining, noun-
>things thought to exist by thought.

Meaning that mystical explanations, while they can be made are not
necessary. Occam had a razor.

>> So, then, as smart as we are, as mystical as we believe
>>ourselves to be, we are no more than those star born atoms allow/make
>>us to be.
>
>From a physical/materialist pov, such a Way is a Way.
>If that Way of explaining noun-things is okay, then t'hats t'hat.
>
>From an occult/hidden in plane site view, who holds the spoon
>is a story told to explain how noun-things are. Eating may
>remain an untold story.

If a person finds it necessary.

>>>How strange and odd that phenomenon is.
>>>Is there more than chemistry, entropy,
>>>physical/material structure at play.
>>
>>There is no reason to suppose there is,
>
>For you, perhaps, obviously, there is no reason.
>
>For me, even though I am able to know, it is the physicist,
>the chemist, the biologist and other scientists who create or invent
>maps to map various phenomena and then assume their maps,
>their theories, explain away a mystery, their maps are
>not the territories, naturally. Maps aren't all that.

The issue is, do you prefer to be mysteried or do you prefer something
else?

>> although it would comfort us
>>to know that there is, as desiring that the universe should have
>>understandable things in mind and understandable reasons for what it
>>does, as we are.
>
>Once upon a time a physicist and a mystic were sitting at a table.
>The physicist said, look. Look how when I pour this milk into coffee,
>it swirls around just like the Milky Way Galaxy. That's how it works.
>
>The mystic then pointed saying, yes, and look. Look at who is
>holding the spoon, stirring the milk into the coffee.

Which is observable. No mystic assumption needed.

Scientists are now lifting the skirts of the big bang to see what is
inside. Perhaps they will find genitalia in there, or a
consciousness. Or one more unimaginable physical process that defeats
finite human understanding. None of which would require a mystical
explanation, unless that is what you prefer.

>>The bible does say that "the rocks themselves cry out against this
>>system" without explaining what system that is or why the rocks don't
>>like it.
>
>Rocks don't like the system?
>
>- hmmm

Some unmentioned system.
--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

On Sun, 12 Sep 2021 06:10:52 -0700, one <be...@apolka.sign> wrote:

>Noah wrote:
>
>> whatever humans do, it is atoms and energy from the
>>stars doing it. It is not clear how much this thinking machine in our
>>heads has to do with it.
>
>Some people, using their minds, and,
>presumably their brains, find
>what they call, atoms.
>
>Many people, using their words, define,
>what is called, by them, energy.
>
>A thinking, so-called, machine,
>can be said to have every, noun-thing,
>to do with what people do with their language.
>
>From a quantum field theoretical frame of reference,
>fields are what are at quantum levels, given: a pov.
>
>To suppose what emerges from a thinking machine
>emerges from the micro to the macro is counter-factual.

One can assume this if one wishes.

>In fact, the quantum levels, all the quanta, the amounts
>of little bits emerge from the so-called, thinking machine.
>
>Ontologically, first, as a given, is a thinking machine, as fact.
>Exactly what the machine invents or discovers to explain
>what appears to the sensors of the machine, varies.

From mystery to mechanics. You get to choose.

>> Designed for the purpose of efficiently
>>acquiring food, water and shelter as it is.
>
>Designed?

By the same force that decided that creatures with backbones should
have 4 limbs, not 2 or 6 or 7, as was tried, so the rocks tell us. It
seems that one could think this force was not all knowing, if one
wishes.

>> It could be that the
>>designer decided the machine was a little too smart for its own good,
>>so it become necessary to confuse the languages and disperse the
>>tribes, or something. Maybe.
>
>The paranoid god theory may work
>to explain why so many languages languish.

Or it might explain something else, if a person wishes, without
tarnishing the image of an imagined god.

>Origin stories, myths, vary.

the garden came before the hubris, we are told.

>Given: a god known as God, people were created to garden
>in the Garden, and one special one was called on to name
>all of the many animated forms the god, God, created.
>
>> Could be a lot more humility would
>>serve us well.
>
>A pale blue dot world works for me seeing how small
>an orb appears from near Saturn's rings can be
>where a surface dweller dwells all's wells.
>
>- on topics and off we go! Cheers!

The only discussion here abouts that is even close to the topic
proposed some decades ago.
--
Noah Sombrero