goblet wrods
shazi
>Mention was made of goblet words.
what are goblet words?
-shazi
![{:-])))'s profile photo](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a/default-user=s40-c)
{:-])))
>j wrote:
>
>>Mention was made of goblet words.
>
>what are goblet words?
Wade-Giles may have, chih yen.
Pinyin could be, zhi yan.
Palmer calls them, "flowing words."
Correa translates, "free flowing words."
Legge may call them, "Words like the water that
daily issues from the cup" or, "words of the
(water-) cup."
Watson seems to have coined, "goblet words."
In the last chapter of the Zz,
speaking of Zz, mention is made
of how he, Zz, may have used them.
Note: translations vary.
'With paradoxical and allegorical explanations,
the language of hyperbole and irony, and by
constructing reductios and regresses, he was
sometimes a little undisciplined but didn't get
locked into any group's point of view or
prejudice. He took the social world to be mired in
obscurity and wouldn't join in their
pontificating. He regarded "goblet words" as open
metaphors, redundancies as true, and perspectival
utterances as expansive. He alone was able to
commute with the nuanced energy of the cosmos
without claiming a priority among all the natural
kinds.'
http://www.hku.hk/philodep/courses/zhuangzi/tianxia1.htm
Fox writes,
probably referring to the Zz, Chapter 27:
'Zhuangzi distinguishes between three kinds of
language: Watson translates them as "imputed
words," "repeated words," and "goblet words." The
first are words attributed to some great
historical or legendary figure, which increases
their impact. The second are words which gain
credibility simply by being familiar, since we
often mistake the merely familiar for the
obviously self-evident. The third are words whose
meaning changes, which Zhuangzi describes as
"words that are no-words" (Complete Writings, p.
303-304.) This kind of language constantly
refreshes itself, and therefore more accurately
conveys meaning. It fills and empties, and thus
more closely mirrors the distinctions necessary
for understanding.'
http://www.udel.edu/Philosophy/afox/zhuangzi.htm
Here's a portion from another site,
'Zhuangzi uses the metaphors of the heart-mind as
a mirror and 荘goblet words鋳 to 荘empty鋳 the
heart-mind of any distinctions. The paradoxical
nature of these words teaches one to be open to
multivalence, and not to be attached to specific
views.'
http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/philosophy_east_and_west/v056/56.3chong.pdf
At yet another site,
comparisons are maybe made 'tween:
"goblet words (zhi yan), dwelling words (yu yan),
and opalescent words (chong yan)."
Check out the Zz, Ch 27
for what somebody may actually,
supposedly, have been said
to have said about them.
-cheers!
{:-])))
>j wrote:
>
>>Mention was made of goblet words.
>
>what are goblet words?
Found another site which says
Graham calls them, "spill-over sayings."
New every day. Let the stream
find its own channels.
-fun stuff!
thanks for asking
{:-])))
>shazi asked:
>>what are goblet words?
>
>Found another site which says
>Graham calls them, "spill-over sayings."
I thought I'd seen this reference as well:
"'Spill-over sayings' are interpreted as taking
their name from a kind of vessel that is designed
to tip and right itself when filled too near the
brim."
There used to be a sort of glass bird thing
with a liquid inside that would tip its beak
and appear to drink from a cup for a spell,
then right itself until the liquid drained
upon which time it again began to drink.
>New every day. Let the stream
>find its own channels.
"'It is the speech proper to the
intelligent spontaneity of Taoist behavior
in general, a fluid language which
keeps its equilibrium through changing
meaning and viewpoints.'" [-Lloyd?]
-Metaphor, Allegory, and the Classical Tradition:
Ancient Thought ...by G. R. Boys-Stones
geo
>>shazi asked:
>>>what are goblet words?
>>
>>Found another site which says
>>Graham calls them, "spill-over sayings."
>I thought I'd seen this reference as well:
>"'Spill-over sayings' are interpreted as taking
>their name from a kind of vessel that is designed
>to tip and right itself when filled too near the
>brim."
I could never picture this untill i saw kill bill vol. 2. it's in the
scene where Uma Thurman has the sword fight in the garden and chops
the top of her opponents head off.
It's the bamboo water clock. The piece of bamboo fills with water and when
it reaches a certain point it pivots and releases the water only to be
refilled.
>There used to be a sort of glass bird thing
>with a liquid inside that would tip its beak
>and appear to drink from a cup for a spell,
>then right itself until the liquid drained
>upon which time it again began to drink.
>>New every day. Let the stream
>>find its own channels.
>"'It is the speech proper to the
>intelligent spontaneity of Taoist behavior
>in general, a fluid language which
>keeps its equilibrium through changing
>meaning and viewpoints.'" [-Lloyd?]
>-Metaphor, Allegory, and the Classical Tradition:
>Ancient Thought ...by G. R. Boys-Stones
It's in the beginning of chapter XXVII of the ZZ in the fourth chapter.
Impromptu words.
It' also repeated in chapter XXXIII
With paradoxical and allegorical explanations, the language of hyperbole
and irony, and by constructing reductios and regresses, he was sometimes a
little undisciplined but didn't get locked into any group's point of view
or prejudice. He took the social world to be mired in obscurity and
wouldn't join in their pontificating. He regarded "goblet words" as open
metaphors, redundancies as true, and perspectival utterances as expansive.
He alone was able to commute with the nuanced energy of the cosmos without
claiming a priority among all the natural kinds.
trans. Chad Hansen
--
g
trivia.. Uma Thurman does not have big thumbs but at 6'foot tall she does
have big feet.. size 11.
{:-])))
> {:-]))) wrote:
>>{:-]))) wrote:
>>>shazi asked:
>>>>what are goblet words?
>>>
>>>Found another site which says
>>>Graham calls them, "spill-over sayings."
>
>>I thought I'd seen this reference as well:
>
>>"'Spill-over sayings' are interpreted as taking
>>their name from a kind of vessel that is designed
>>to tip and right itself when filled too near the
>>brim."
>
>I could never picture this untill i saw kill bill vol. 2. it's in the
>scene where Uma Thurman has the sword fight in the garden and chops
>the top of her opponents head off.
Hi george,
Glad to see you once again.
I still have yet to see the Kill Bills.
>It's the bamboo water clock. The piece of bamboo fills with water and when
>it reaches a certain point it pivots and releases the water only to be
>refilled.
That makes more sense than what I pictured.
Zz might well have been acquainted with them
or something on the same order.
>>There used to be a sort of glass bird thing
>>with a liquid inside that would tip its beak
>>and appear to drink from a cup for a spell,
>>then right itself until the liquid drained
>>upon which time it again began to drink.
Dad used to get the Edmund catelog.
Seems to me we also had a bird at one time.
http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp?pn=3081521&bhcd2=1209040525
Tantalus cups might be an obverse type
of similar filling and emptying. Mobius and Klein,
ouroboros, yin and yang, cycles re-knewing.
Language may induce mental knots.
Goblet words might be a mental floss.
>With paradoxical and allegorical explanations, the language of hyperbole
>and irony, and by constructing reductios and regresses, he was sometimes a
>little undisciplined but didn't get locked into any group's point of view
>or prejudice. He took the social world to be mired in obscurity and
>wouldn't join in their pontificating. He regarded "goblet words" as open
>metaphors, redundancies as true, and perspectival utterances as expansive.
>He alone was able to commute with the nuanced energy of the cosmos without
>claiming a priority among all the natural kinds.
>
>trans. Chad Hansen
-passing bottomless
shazi
hey george. been a while.
>>{:-]))) wrote:
>>>shazi asked:
>
>>>>what are goblet words?
>>>
>>>Found another site which says
>>>Graham calls them, "spill-over sayings."
>
>>I thought I'd seen this reference as well:
>
>>"'Spill-over sayings' are interpreted as taking
>>their name from a kind of vessel that is designed
>>to tip and right itself when filled too near the
>>brim."
>I could never picture this untill i saw kill bill vol. 2. it's in the
>scene where Uma Thurman has the sword fight in the garden and chops
>the top of her opponents head off.
ah, tarantino daoism...
>It's the bamboo water clock. The piece of bamboo fills with water and when
>it reaches a certain point it pivots and releases the water only to be
>refilled.
the wenzi discusses this clock:
of old, rulers had a clock to
demonstrate to them the nature
of the yi. things change.
>>There used to be a sort of glass bird thing
>>with a liquid inside that would tip its beak
>>and appear to drink from a cup for a spell,
>>then right itself until the liquid drained
>>upon which time it again began to drink.
i'm not sure that 'spill-over expressions'
captures the idea behind 'goblet words'.
words are conveyers of meaning,
or at least can be.
the words, 'cook ding' are a goblet of sort,
holding all sorts of meaning behind them,
to one who is familiar with the story.
perhaps 'cook ting' is a goblet for 'wuwei'?
could the words 'robber chih' be a goblet
for a dao that is once dao and also fei dao?
wrong dao, alas!
is 'dao' a goblet?
if so, what is inside?
-shazi
{:-])))
>is 'dao' a goblet?
>
>if so, what is inside?
If dao is a goblet, emptiness is inside?
If dao is emptiness, what is the goblet? 10k?
I like to think of dao as a goblet word.
It's ever refreshing. Self-emptying and refilling.
You mentioned cook ding as a possible goblet term.
I'd probably add; gnarly-tree, sea-turtle, hunchy,
and several other favorites of mine.
-still knot sure
bouts open metaphors
shazi
>Tantalus cups might be an obverse type
>of similar filling and emptying. Mobius and Klein,
>ouroboros, yin and yang, cycles re-knewing.
>
>Language may induce mental knots.
>Goblet words might be a mental floss.
now there's a mixed metaphor for ya.
>>With paradoxical and allegorical explanations, the language of hyperbole
>>and irony, and by constructing reductios and regresses, he was sometimes a
>>little undisciplined but didn't get locked into any group's point of view
>>or prejudice. He took the social world to be mired in obscurity and
>>wouldn't join in their pontificating. He regarded "goblet words" as open
>>metaphors, redundancies as true, and perspectival utterances as expansive.
>>He alone was able to commute with the nuanced energy of the cosmos without
>>claiming a priority among all the natural kinds.
>>
>>trans. Chad Hansen
>
>-passing bottomless
the chinese text is
yi zhi yan wei man yan
[he] used goblet words to-make long amplifications
the 'yi zhi yan' here are not
difficult to translate, it
pretty much means 'used goblet words'.
wei - to make, no issue here.
but 'man yan' is the interesting part:
from zhendic:
man - handsome; large; long
yan - to spread out; to develop; to overflow; to amplify
watson has it:
So he used "goblet words" to pour out endless changes,
hansen, above:
He regarded "goblet words" as open metaphors,
although watson tries to be more literal,
the use of 'changes' implies that the
text may have something to do with the yi.
in chinese, it does not.
hansen is a much better translation here,
although 'metaphor' was not in the original text.
(there is a term for metaphor in classical chinese,
not present in the text).
to me, the goblet is like the empty bowl,
where the nothingness inside is the use of the bowl.
goblet words, therefore, are better as 'open metaphors',
where the 'open' is the emptiness inside.
-shazi
shazi
do you think that graham
is getting his spill-over sayings
from the watson-like interpretation
So he used "goblet words" to *pour out* endless changes,
watson and graham seem to translate yan
http://zhongwen.com/d/173/x108.htm
in the etymological sense of water
proceeding forth, pouring...
but the word means more of
evolve, to spread-out, to amplify.
I can't give you the url for the zhendic
character, but if you click here:
http://www.afpc.asso.fr/wengu/wg/zhendic.php
then search yan3 as pinyin,
click on the third character
(same one as shown on zhongwen)
you'll see a better definition.
-shazi
{:-])))
>do you think that graham
>is getting his spill-over sayings
>from the watson-like interpretation
>So he used "goblet words" to *pour out* endless changes,
Eye thinks, and feels, t'hat words are Way
cool, ore can be. Berry refreshinging. Cloud-like,
sparrow hopping. Layered width meaning at length,
infinite as a number line, containing all which
is real, yet may be irrational, two. Both positive
and negative rolled up into a sort of circular
cycle of, well, maybe beer drinking pi chart.
http://www.strange-loops.com/philhakimchaoslinguistics.html
In the above link somebody said some stuff like,
'The old editor says Chuang Tzu thought ...
He calls it Spillover saying, and comments that it
"is new everyday. Smooth it out on the whetstone
of Heaven. Use it to go by and let the stream find
its own channels." ...
Something was said about ward and sector.
There's a google link to Graham's book.
I typed in: chuang-tzu and spillover
and one of the hits, the third one down,
The Inner Chapters ...
linked to page 107 wear it has bytes.
Hey,
I'm still trying to figure out
what an open metaphor is.
Sorry aye, yam of mulch, know help h'ears.
>watson and graham seem to translate yan
>http://zhongwen.com/d/173/x108.htm
>in the etymological sense of water
>proceeding forth, pouring...
>
>but the word means more of
>evolve, to spread-out, to amplify.
>I can't give you the url for the zhendic
>character, but if you click here:
>http://www.afpc.asso.fr/wengu/wg/zhendic.php
Okay. Did that.
>then search yan3 as pinyin,
Okay. Did that.
>click on the third character
>(same one as shown on zhongwen)
>you'll see a better definition.
I see, to spread out, develop, overflow, amplify.
Teh Zz was tops. Spinning yarns, looming,
with supposed words and giving an aria
of authority at times, making thing sup on food,
furring thought, as Jo of the N'otion oar
an old man diving off sum F'alls
far a swim, w\turtles.
>-shazi
-ribbit
shazi
>shazi asked:
>>is 'dao' a goblet?
i meant, is the word 'dao' a goblet term?
>>if so, what is inside?
>If dao is a goblet, emptiness is inside?
sure, the obvious answer.
but more, or less, deep-ends.
>If dao is emptiness, what is the goblet? 10k?
the goblet is simply the term 'dao'.
not that the 10k are the goblet,
but to change the metaphor, perhaps
the 10k are the container for dao
but in saying so, it kinda changes the metaphor.
there, i just repeated myself.
it's an age thing.
>I like to think of dao as a goblet word.
yup.
>It's ever refreshing. Self-emptying and refilling.
dao or the term?
>You mentioned cook ding as a possible goblet term.
>I'd probably add; gnarly-tree, sea-turtle, hunchy,
>and several other favorites of mine.
conveyors of meaning.
the meaning deep-ends (as you would say),
'tis a shared meaning,
not as derrida would deconstruct.
words have something to say,
not just anything,
or just whatever suits the reader,
but rather, some shared meaning between two or more.
there was a startrek next generation segment,
entitled 'darmok at tanagra'.
an alien people who only spoke in metaphor.
problem is, that if you don't know the shared experience,
upon which the metaphor is based,
communication isn't really there.
to 'cook ding', there's a meaning behind the words.
the meaning is much broader than the two characters
that make up the words. i say 'cook ding', but
i don't mean anything like 'robber chih'.
the goblet, therefore, isn't quite empty,
but is subject to interpretation,
and at least helps if one knows the context.
dao as a goblet word, certainly drifted in meaning.
how kongzi used 'dao' is quite distinct from laozi.
when hanfeizi used 'dao', i almost think that laozi
would have said 'feidao'!, because hanfeizi's dao
was one of regulations and force, whereas the
dao of laozi and zhuangzi was quite the opposite.
>-still knot sure
>bouts open metaphors
knotty-ness has its twists and turns.
-shazi
noname
>j wrote:
>
>>shazi asked:
>
>>>is 'dao' a goblet?
>
>i meant, is the word 'dao' a goblet term?
>
>>>if so, what is inside?
>
>>If dao is a goblet, emptiness is inside?
>
>sure, the obvious answer.
>but more, or less, deep-ends.
>
>>If dao is emptiness, what is the goblet? 10k?
>
>the goblet is simply the term 'dao'.
>not that the 10k are the goblet,
>but to change the metaphor, perhaps
>the 10k are the container for dao
Cook Ting with a live ox.
Hunchy in winter.
Lao Tzu at the Gate.
>but in saying so, it kinda changes the metaphor.
>there, i just repeated myself.
>it's an age thing.
>
>>I like to think of dao as a goblet word.
>
>yup.
>
>>It's ever refreshing. Self-emptying and refilling.
>
>dao or the term?
>
>>You mentioned cook ding as a possible goblet term.
>>I'd probably add; gnarly-tree, sea-turtle, hunchy,
>>and several other favorites of mine.
>
>conveyors of meaning.
>the meaning deep-ends (as you would say),
>'tis a shared meaning,
>not as derrida would deconstruct.
>words have something to say,
>not just anything,
>or just whatever suits the reader,
>but rather, some shared meaning between two or more.
>
>there was a startrek next generation segment,
>entitled 'darmok at tanagra'.
>an alien people who only spoke in metaphor.
Rubber band snapping.
>problem is, that if you don't know the shared experience,
>upon which the metaphor is based,
>communication isn't really there.
Naming their first.
>to 'cook ding', there's a meaning behind the words.
>the meaning is much broader than the two characters
>that make up the words. i say 'cook ding', but
>i don't mean anything like 'robber chih'.
>
>the goblet, therefore, isn't quite empty,
>but is subject to interpretation,
>and at least helps if one knows the context.
>
>dao as a goblet word, certainly drifted in meaning.
>how kongzi used 'dao' is quite distinct from laozi.
>when hanfeizi used 'dao', i almost think that laozi
>would have said 'feidao'!, because hanfeizi's dao
>was one of regulations and force, whereas the
>dao of laozi and zhuangzi was quite the opposite.
No road to Eden.
>>-still knot sure
>>bouts open metaphors
>
>knotty-ness has its twists and turns.
>
>-shazi
Knotheads to the East.
--
escaping harmony
shazi
you're just full of metaphor aren't you?
being full of it is a way of being...
awfully quiet in the grove these days...
-shazi
{:-])))
>j wrote:
[...s]
>i meant, is the word 'dao' a goblet term?
It certainly can be for me.
>>It's ever refreshing. Self-emptying and refilling.
>
>dao or the term?
Both.
I think that's a function of goblet words.
The map, at times, is the territory.
Words can be things in themselves.
You'd mentioned Cook Ding. He too,
his story, can be a transformative text.
With each reading it may hold an edge
where a fine molecular blade finds room
to move and read between the lines.
At other times a map is a representation.
Words are pointers, signifiers. Dao, the term,
can be as well, akin to a, well, frog.
>there was a startrek next generation segment,
>entitled 'darmok at tanagra'.
Yes. I've seen it more than once.
>an alien people who only spoke in metaphor.
>problem is, that if you don't know the shared experience,
>upon which the metaphor is based,
>communication isn't really there.
Picard figured it out, eventually.
Dao, being in all things, is shared by all.
But there are experiences and experiences.
There can be knowing one knows.
And then there are the quibbles.
>to 'cook ding', there's a meaning behind the words.
Simple kitchen guy. Nobody special.
But wait! There's more!
>the meaning is much broader than the two characters
>that make up the words. i say 'cook ding', but
>i don't mean anything like 'robber chih'.
>
>the goblet, therefore, isn't quite empty,
>but is subject to interpretation,
>and at least helps if one knows the context.
A context is certainly a context
but with each situation, it may differ
and usually does to some degree.
The goblet is useful because of its capacity.
It's the available emptiness that makes it such.
>dao as a goblet word, certainly drifted in meaning.
>how kongzi used 'dao' is quite distinct from laozi.
>when hanfeizi used 'dao', i almost think that laozi
>would have said 'feidao'!, because hanfeizi's dao
>was one of regulations and force, whereas the
>dao of laozi and zhuangzi was quite the opposite.
Sometimes a road is just a road.
>>-still knot sure
>>bouts open metaphors
>
>knotty-ness has its twists and turns.
Uselessness has its advantages, at times.
>-shazi
{:-])))
>>Cook Ting with a live ox.
>>Hunchy in winter.
>>Lao Tzu at the Gate.
Most excellent.
>>> 'darmok at tanagra'.
Tamar by the roadside.
>>Rubber band snapping.
Zara at the bosporous.
>>Naming their first.
Ming tang.
>>No road to Eden.
Ida and pingala.
>>Knotheads to the East.
Chi wiz.
>you're just full of metaphor aren't you?
>
>being full of it is a way of being...
>
>awfully quiet in the grove these days...
-pondering beer
>-shazi
noname
>you're just full of metaphor aren't you?
>
>being full of it is a way of being...
Metaphorically speaking, I'm usually full of it.
>awfully quiet in the grove these days...
Maybe wr got tired of talking to himself. Jay's easy enough to wind
up, but isn't usually self-winding. Jim Fish is apparently resting
with the fossilized fishes along with the others long-ago heard from.
Stumper is probably out whoring around with the vikings.
I've been busy chopping and carrying and walking, some talking
elsewhere but mostly just hanging out with a metaphorical Tao-hand
stuffed up my ass to run the puppet.
I noticed Keynes posted something a while back. I read it and thought
geez, what a strange mix of stuff, I oughta reply to that... but then
I fell asleep before I could find anything in it to reply to.
There are places full of talking. Usually talking-past or talking-at,
but if you're after talking there's plenty of it out there. We could
reminisce about the good-old days (those start sometime next month I
think) or wonder what happened to Craig.
Or we could not-talk. That's a lot less effort in some ways. Fewer
arguments for sure.
--
escaping harmony
{:-])))
>shazi <shazi....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>you're just full of metaphor aren't you?
>>
>>being full of it is a way of being...
>
>Metaphorically speaking, I'm usually full of it.
>
>>awfully quiet in the grove these days...
>
>Maybe wr got tired of talking to himself.
Makes me wonder about the wanderriver.
I find it pattern-like how he and a number
of others appear and disapper together.
He could be all of them, or it could be that
a sort of tide, or wave, or spectrum of
expression expands to include a portion.
After a while the impetus loses impetus
and they all return to someplace else.
Lots of waze to carve b'locks.
>Jay's easy enough to wind
>up, but isn't usually self-winding.
Usually I'm responsive
but not the originator of topics.
Very full of words and energy
but picking and choosing how
and what to say and go a bout.
It's interesting to me how we are,
some of us here, around the campfire,
without necessarily talking very much.
Kinda makes me wonder about lurkers.
Maybe some folks read the posts, as they
would read a newspaper, but never write.
Others visit for a short spell, read and write,
but don't stay for more than a day or two.
A few of us remain, in silence,
until the winds of speech evoke a sound.
The sounds of keys on a keyboard.
> Jim Fish is apparently resting
>with the fossilized fishes along with the others long-ago heard from.
>Stumper is probably out whoring around with the vikings.
>
>I've been busy chopping and carrying and walking, some talking
>elsewhere but mostly just hanging out with a metaphorical Tao-hand
>stuffed up my ass to run the puppet.
>
>I noticed Keynes posted something a while back. I read it and thought
>geez, what a strange mix of stuff, I oughta reply to that... but then
>I fell asleep before I could find anything in it to reply to.
>
>There are places full of talking. Usually talking-past or talking-at,
>but if you're after talking there's plenty of it out there. We could
>reminisce about the good-old days (those start sometime next month I
>think) or wonder what happened to Craig.
>
>Or we could not-talk. That's a lot less effort in some ways. Fewer
>arguments for sure.
At the end of the day
did all those words really mean anything
or were they more akin to blurps in water
as rocks crumbled down a mountainside
at times making a big splash while at others
just a drop in an oceanic bucket.
-waves reflecting
geo
>Makes me wonder about the wanderriver.
>I find it pattern-like how he and a number
>of others appear and disapper together.
>He could be all of them, or it could be that
>a sort of tide, or wave, or spectrum of
>expression expands to include a portion.
>After a while the impetus loses impetus
>and they all return to someplace else.
>Lots of waze to carve b'locks.
hmm.. is that like "I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all
together."
>-waves reflecting
2 points for the above.. very good
--
g
{:-])))
> jay'd written:
>>Makes me wonder about the wanderriver.
>>I find it pattern-like how he and a number
>>of others appear and disapper together.
>>He could be all of them, or it could be that
>>a sort of tide, or wave, or spectrum of
>>expression expands to include a portion.
>>After a while the impetus loses impetus
>>and they all return to someplace else.
>>Lots of waze to carve b'locks.
>
>hmm.. is that like "I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all
>together."
Cud be.
It's doubtful to me that one individual would
actually be so compulsive and obsessive
plus have that many personalities.
I don't know tho. Probably the headers
would suggest it ain't so. Then again,
forgeries have been known to happen.
Most likely it's a frenzy of sorts.
As the energy takes shape, folks chime in.
Maybe they take meds after a spell.
No idea what triggers it. Interesting tho.
Lots of memories.
[...]
>>At the end of the day
>>did all those words really mean anything
>>or were they more akin to blurps in water
>>as rocks crumbled down a mountainside
>>at times making a big splash while at others
>>just a drop in an oceanic bucket.
>
>>-waves reflecting
>
>2 points for the above.. very good
Thanks!
-beginning to ponder beer