Mites coming in Carefresh/Aspen?
Meghan
long!
I am fairly sure that my poor little men have fur mites. I have tried in
the past to freeze the bedding before use (with my mice) but have heard
mixed reviews on how long to do it or if it even works. Our freezer is
pretty small, and I buy bedding in bulk, so it gets kind of impossible.
I use a mix of Carefresh and shredded Aspen. *IF* I thought for a minute
that these were the culprit for mites, I would never use them again. Yes,
they are absorbent, but not worth the infestation!
Does anyone have any suspicions or proof that this is where these mites
might have come from?
Meghan
Brenda G. Kent
invisible until just now.
This happenned to a budgie that I bought..seemingly okay then all of a
sudden mites! The vet said that they can be dormant for awhile and then
just spring up and that I could not have gotten them anywhere else BUT the
last place I bought him.
Bren
--
"On a withered branch,
a crow has now alighted.
Nightfall in autumn."
-- Basho, 1679
J&S Bouchard
"Meghan" <meghan...@ncia.net> wrote in message
news:dH5td.5955$Pd2.2...@monger.newsread.com...
possible that the mites were under control on the new rats and then boing!
The rats become stressed and no longer can tolerate the mites living with
them.
I freeze my food. I think 24 hours should do the trick but don't quote me on
that one.
--
Joanne
Mom to 10 rats
http://community.webshots.com/user/joanneb70
paghat
<j-...@nospamsympatico.ca> wrote:
Freezing does not usually kill mites & more certainly does not kill their
eggs. Temperatures low enough to kill the eggs are not achievable in a
home freezer as it's not nearly cold enough. If they could not survive the
cold, the majority of mite species would be extinct after one winter.
Mites frequently infest pet store foods & beddings IF the petstore has
infested animals. In that case there are mites & mite eggs on everything,
but they harbor best in seed mixes & bedding. This would be less often
occuring in the sorts of boring petstores that sell pet food but no living
animals. Mites can just as likely be brought to one's pets from having
petted someone else's pets, introduced yokur rats to other pets, or wild
rodents getting in the house. Mites can also just succeed in migrating
into new areas, usually from eggs adhering to anything that is moving,
like on our garments in the fur of an intermediary host such as a dog or
cat which had contact with wild rodents or which merley has access to the
yard. Even mites that are species specific & wouldn't want a human or a
cat for a permanent host, the wrong species can help them migrate to get
nearer new rodent hosts.=
Depressed immune system can indeed hasten the establishment of a major
mite outbreak, plus a bad immune system make healing from scratches nearly
impossible & invites bacterial infection. But the mites themselves will
stress the immune system & unlike dogs (which commonly carry mange mites
without getting mange) rats will rarely have only a few burrowing mites
without showing worse & worse effects over time. SOME sorts of mites eat
only dead skin & are harmless & may even be beneficial in "cleaning" the
skin; very few animals including people lack these sorts of mites, but
they're too small to see, & they usually cause no ill health effects of
any kind. But the sorts of mites that burrow into the skin are not apt to
stop their behavior at some subclinical level where they would never be
harmful. They must always be treated & gotten rid of, after it is first
established they're really present.
--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com
Kelly
girls have never had mites.
I have heard that it is more likely that most rats already have mites, but
if they get sick or stressed than the mites cause problems. I recall that
you got some of your rats from a breeder and some of them somewhere else
(pet store, rescue?). It's highly likely that one of them already had
mites.
Kelly
"Meghan" <meghan...@ncia.net> wrote in message
news:dH5td.5955$Pd2.2...@monger.newsread.com...
Meghan
rescue from a pet store in August (she's hairless). They've all been
healthy, so I don't know what would suddenly change to make them susceptable
to mites now???
Meghan
"Kelly" <no...@goaway.com> wrote in message
news:XLltd.27548$dC3.5...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Oh Ratz
the little scabs on their necks and backs. Is this weird? I have 14
other rats that don't show any signs of bugs. I've been cleaning like
mad, giving Ivermectin and nothing seems to help. It only seems to
diminish a little or only go away for a short times. It drives me mad.
Erika
<:3_)~
Brenda G. Kent
is fair to Carefresh...which is a great company as far as I am concerned.
Good healthy product.
jakewc2
"Brenda G. Kent" <wt...@victoria.tc.ca> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.58.04...@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca...
> I'd really love to get rid of the name of this thread as I don't think it
> is fair to Carefresh...which is a great company as far as I am concerned.
>
> Good healthy product.
>
>
> Bren
>
> --
I have been hearing on a few other websites that there have been mite
problems with Carefresh. On one website they recommend that you freeze
Carefresh for 2 days in the freezer, before using it. Its the same with
Timothy hay, its been recommended that you freeze that for 2 days too.
When people get problems with products, I feel its really important that
people get to hear about them. Asking for this thread to be removed, to me,
is defeating the object of groups like this. I do understand how you feel,
as it sounds like you have not had any problems with it, but other people
might have.
John.
jakewc2
"Brenda G. Kent" <wt...@victoria.tc.ca> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.58.04...@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca...
> is fair to Carefresh...which is a great company as far as I am concerned.
>
> Good healthy product.
>
>
> Bren
>
> --
I came across these two intereting things written by Linda Price of the
Californian Hamster Association. I thought I would pass it on. I have pased
it on to a lot of Hamster sites, but didn't think that it would be useful
here, but as Aspen has been mentioned, I have decided to include it.
http://www.geocities.com/calhamassoc/Aspen.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HoneyHams/message/766
The first Article has been on Linda site for a long time, but the Second
e-mail was written to the HoneyHams Yahoo group not so long ago, by Linda
Price herself.
John.
paghat
<jj...@kasn.dsl.jnbdjk.pipex.com> wrote:
> "Brenda G. Kent" <wt...@victoria.tc.ca> wrote in message
> news:Pine.GSO.4.58.04...@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca...
> > I'd really love to get rid of the name of this thread as I don't think it
> > is fair to Carefresh...which is a great company as far as I am concerned.
> >
> > Good healthy product.
> >
> >
> > Bren
> >
> > --
>
> I have been hearing on a few other websites that there have been mite
> problems with Carefresh.
Beddings become infested when sold in pet stores that also sell animals
that are infested, so it wouldn't be limited to a brandname. Seed mixes &
cereals also become infested with mites if kept in an area where infested
animals are housed. Some grains & seeds displayed in small bins have
flufenoxuron (an insect growth inhibitor) & azadirachtin (a pesticide
derived from the neem tree) or similar chemicals added to deal with the
possibility of mites & insects. I don't like the idea of chemical
additives but doubt there's any way of knowing if it has been used. In
fewer numbers they will be on wooden toys or anything, as those mites do
get around.
> On one website they recommend that you freeze
> Carefresh for 2 days in the freezer, before using it.
This will not kill mite eggs which will hatch once they thaw out & there
are warm fuzzy bodies nearby. To kill already hatched larvae & adult mites
would require a temperature of Zero degrees F. or minus 30 to minus 20
degrees C. for a few minutes; this is much colder than your home freezer
which could take anywhere from a full day to a full week to freeze most
but not necessarily all the larvae & adult mites to death, without kiling
the eggs.
The freezing trick thus doesn't often work, & seems to have been adapted
from a method of dealing with allergy-causing dustmites, but freezing is
just to keep them from crawling away before a blanket or pillow case is
laundered. Can't launder the pet pedding, thus so far as the mite eggs are
concerned, they're just waiting for winter to end & warm fuzzies to be
active again. Professional mite control includes use of liquid nitrogen
over the surface of carpets, which is vastly colder than for making
icecubes in the freezer compartment.
> Its the same with
> Timothy hay, its been recommended that you freeze that for 2 days too.
Similarly, it won't be nearly cold enough to kill eggs, nor even certain
to kill adult mites & larvae. And hay is more likely than other beddings
to carry mites because it was harvested outdoors in fields where infested
rodents passed through & shed eggs from the mites. The recommendation that
I've seen that may work better is to microwave timothy hay for up to 3
minutes (depending on the amount, maybe only one minute for a small
amount).
I've also seen the recommendation that timothy hay or alfalfa be kept in
the freezer so that the mites won't migrate or continue to lay eggs, then
thaw it in the microwave in order to kill the eggs immediately before use.
Some recommend this for beddings like Carefresh too though I've never
tried it & though I've never seen a real report are no reports on
effectiveness it seems pretty obvious microwaved mites OR their eggs would
be pretty dead. I've never taken these measures but would probably do so
if the rats had mites & extra measures were required.
> When people get problems with products, I feel its really important that
> people get to hear about them. Asking for this thread to be removed, to me,
> is defeating the object of groups like this. I do understand how you feel,
> as it sounds like you have not had any problems with it, but other people
> might have.
A lot of false information gets posted & not much can be done about that.
It would be unfortunate for a good company if their specific product got
blamed for something that was in no way restricted to their product, but
the way to deal with it would be to correct the overstatement or
misinformation. "Carefresh is most likely to have mites" would be
incorrect. "All products akin to Carefresh can become infested with mites
if shelved near cages with infested animals" would be correct, & no no
great slam of Carefresh per se.
-paghat the ratgirl
paghat
<jj...@kasn.dsl.jnbdjk.pipex.com> wrote:
The argument that aspen is bad but pine is good needs greater
substantiation. Pine exudes toxic phenols. Contrary to the Linda's
statements, pine phenols can injure hamsters or ANY rodent by causing
liver, upper respiratory, or intestinal damage. For people too for that
matter. If these phenols are extremely well ventillated the problem may
never be seen; if the pine was well-cured & so exudes no phenols, then no
problem. But if it smells of pine, BIG problem. Aspen does not exude
phenols & is the standard bedding of most laboratory settings, even though
relatively few petshops sell it because they make more money selling
millwaste (leftovers after making pine & cedar lumber or major wood
products) & softwoods are not as commonly milled.
Even if it wasn't rather strange to assume what applies to all other
rodents wouldn't apply to hamsters, Linda even so errs greatly claiming
such tests have never been done on hamsters. Hamsters are very common lab
animals & they do go through some of the same horrors as lab rats & lab
mice. These studies were done on animal models in order to find out things
applicable to humans, so if she's looking for the studies exclusively in
veterinarian journals she might not find any, but in peer-reivewed
journals on resperiatory & renal medical research, the effects of pine
phenols using animal models, including hamsters, are numerous.
Linda seems to be doing what a lot of people do: "I have used pine for
years, it has never hurt my hamsters, therefore pine is best for
hamsters." Here is an on-line article on respiratory illness caused by
Pine as well as by Cedar:
http://www.trifl.org/cedar.shtml
Laboratory Animal Resources of Fort Collins, Colorado, found that both
White Fir & Aspen were the best beddings for rodents (including hamsters),
while the University of Colorado tested beddings thoroughly on hamsters,
mice, rats, cavies, rabbits, ferrets, & cats. The results of these tests
established the following:
CEDAR: NOT RECOMMENDED for all small rodents, causes a variety of health
problems.
PINE: Also NOT RECOMMENDED for all small mammals including hamsters.
However, mice, rats, hamsters, rabbits, & cavies were not as universally
afflicted as when on cedar, & not all pines were equally harmful, being
dependant on the amount of phenols. (The Colorado study failed to assess
kiln dried pine separately.)
CHLOROPHYL PINE. NOT RECOMMENDED. It had all the harmful potential of
regular pine without any added benefit from chlorophyl, hence it's a bogus
product.
ASPEN: RECOMMENDED, found across the board the best choice for all small
rodents including hamsters.
It was suggested that cottonwood shavings would also be good but were not
tested.
If additional information exists that seriously indicts aspen, I would
certainly welcome knowing about it. When Linda says "we know" (using the
royal "we") aspen is bad and pine is good, this is not just one
unsubstantiated claim but two: aspen is bad AND pine is good. The royal
"we" saying so is not sufficient evidence to contradict the findings of
the University of Colorado study, let alone the studies conducted by
Vesell and Cunliffe-Beamer, & many other studies since.
But the reason studies are done multiple times is because findings do have
to be reproducible, & sometimes new things are discovered. It is clear
Linda does NOT know what she's talking about when she says "hamsters are
ignored in these studies" because they are absolutely included in the
studies. It's clear she does not know what she's talking about when she
says pine is safe for hamsters, as the studies on this are quite good ones
& prove the opposite of her assertion.
An overview of phenol exposures of animals was published by the
International Programme on Chemical Safety, United Nations World Health
Organization, Environmental Health Criteria #67, 1995, & synopsized the
work on phenol exposures of small mammals. The research was for human
health issues, but many of hte studies used animal models, hamsters quite
commonly.
Limiting it to findings specifically for hamsters, in studies for which
hamsters were assessed for phenol exposure of 4 weeks duration and 13
weeks duration, results found degenerative changes in the respiratory
epithelium, trachia, & larynx of hamsters. Whether exposures were low or
high, tissue damage in the respiratory tract was the inevitable result,
though obviously the higher the exposure the worse the damage. It took 13
weeks of exposure in hamsters to get the same amount of upper respiratory
damage in rats suffer in a scant three weeks (for rats which are naturally
more susceptible than hamsters to all sorts of lung complaints). In the
long run these phenols effect every cell of the body & can in extreme
cases result in death from liver dysfunction, but even moderate exposures
cause upper respiratory damage in ALL small mammals. Really there is no
reason to discount the rabbit studies which show alarming death rates for
infant rabbits in enclosed nest boxes lined with pine shavings, but as
Linda has brought up the red herring of "rabbits aren't hamsters" we can
see from the best studies that upper respiratory damage including trachia
& larynx will occur in hamsters exposed to phenols.
So Linda is clarly wrong in claiming pine phenols are not injurious to
hamsters. That's so wrong it very nearly dashes all her claims to any
expertise on hamster health. The aspen issue is separate, however. To
date, all available evidence suggests she's wrong there too. I could
imagine new discoveries about aspen or other hardwoods, but there's no way
on earth the definitive findings about pine are going to be reversed, so
it makes her other claims seem at least dubious.
What APPEARS to have happened some big fish in a small pond was in a
position of some authority in a hamster club when she began interpretting
any number of health issues as "must be the aspen!" & then asked equally
amateurish breeders & ordinary pet owners to confirm baseless assumptions,
so that everything from mites to diabetes in hamsters to unexplained
deaths were across-the-board being called aspen-caused without any
assessment of the actual & known causes of sundry ailments. The more
active club members worked themselves up into a frenzied hysteria & began
posting on the web totally unsubstantiated worries & passing club
regulations based on froth & frenzy. Its like if I thought picking your
nose caused heart disease & I convinced everyone I know to see if people
with heart problems ever picked their noses, then called that proof.
I've seen these claims against aspin repeated by people without providing
any evidence of any kind for about a year. I hadn't known where the story
originated, so I was somewhat worried, as even the dumbest of dumb rumors
occasionally turn out to have a germ of truth to them. I am glad to learn
where the claim originated, as if that's really the primary source for
these claims, there would appear to be nothing to worry about.
paghat
purposes injurious to pets. Many pet stores NEVER offer non-aromatic
shavings, such as aspen, so essesntially they sell only the toxic stuff.
Petshops persist in selling dangeorus products because wood chips &
sawdust are millwaste which pet-product manufacturers can package at very
little cost & sell with extravagant profit margins. Petshops are not in
the business of taking care of your animals' health -- they're in the
business of taking advantage of your love for your pets for purposes of
profit. Whether they sell you a goldfish that dies a week later, a running
wheel that rips off rodents' tails or breaks their legs, a turtle that has
never eaten in captivity since the day it was stolen from the wild & is
already nearly starved to death, a diseased rodent, a diet mix invariably
including items that will not be eaten &/or are not healthy, a cage too
poorly designed to clean properly & so guaranted to be a bacteria pit, or
a bedding that will asyphixiate your pet -- the only thing that matters is
you left your money behind.
Tthe pet shop industry is very poorly regulated so they can do what they
want. Their selling of parrots is best regulated because of the worry of
spreading diseases to chickens for human consumption, not for the sake of
pets, but little else forces them to insure the health of animals or the
safety of products. If pet products & toys had to meet the safety
requirements for child toys & products, a third of the stuff in the
petshops would no longer be sold.
This is why, even though aspen bedding is the preferred small mammal
bedding for research animals & most often used in laboratory settings,
many petshops nevertheless sell exclusively pine & cedar bedding that
exudes toxic gasses harmful to animals. THe petshops frequently do not
even provide the option of a healthy aspen or any other non-aromatic
softwoods, as these are not commonly milled trees & do not have the
extravagant mark-ups of packaged mill waste products.
It's a sad fact that it's always buyer beware when in a petshop. If you
ever do happen to go into a petshop that has aspen & paper bedding on the
shelves but has consciously refused to sell pine & cedar because it
injures pets, congratulate those people for their rare concern, &
patronize their shop foremost.
Brenda G. Kent
sterilize the product before bagging it.
People can mistake anything for bringing in mites..instead of the very
place they bought the rat. I would advise a very strong investigation
before spreading gossip.
Blessings
Dave Ryman
> I have not heard anything until now about Carefresh. I believe that
> they sterilize the product before bagging it.
>
> People can mistake anything for bringing in mites..instead of the very
> place they bought the rat. I would advise a very strong investigation
> before spreading gossip.
>
> Blessings
> Bren
>
Sorry to disagree, but the main concern for rat owners has to be the
health of the rats. Hence discussions about bedding and food have to be
carried out - regardless of whether it's pine shavings, Carefresh or any
other. Concerns about gossip have to be pushed to second place.
I am inclined to agree with the storage theory, however - pet shops have
pets in store, and mites might get to the food and bedding section
somehow. In addition to that, if you're a wild rat, a warehouse stocked
with warm bedding and food has to an attractive option, especially when
you're feeling a little run down because of all those mites on your
back.
--
Regards,
Dave
dave_...@hotmailNOSPAM.com
http://welcome.to/daves.website
http://travel.to/formula.one
J&S Bouchard
"jakewc2" <jj...@kasn.dsl.jnbdjk.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:31ot0gF...@individual.net...
life. She's currently a happy healthy girl at the old age of 25 months old.
:) It is troubling that some people report problems with their hammies on
Aspen. But before putting them on pine, I would find an alternative bedding.
Brenda G. Kent
hate to see gossip ruin good businesses.
Blessings in us all getting the correct info...
Tracey
"paghat" <paghatSP...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:paghatSPAM-ME-NOT...@soggy72.drizzle.com...
<snip>
> > Its the same with
> > Timothy hay, its been recommended that you freeze that for 2 days too.
>
> Similarly, it won't be nearly cold enough to kill eggs, nor even certain
> to kill adult mites & larvae. And hay is more likely than other beddings
> to carry mites because it was harvested outdoors in fields where infested
> rodents passed through & shed eggs from the mites. The recommendation that
> I've seen that may work better is to microwave timothy hay for up to 3
> minutes (depending on the amount, maybe only one minute for a small
> amount).
>
> I've also seen the recommendation that timothy hay or alfalfa be kept in
> the freezer so that the mites won't migrate or continue to lay eggs, then
> thaw it in the microwave in order to kill the eggs immediately before use.
> Some recommend this for beddings like Carefresh too though I've never
> tried it & though I've never seen a real report are no reports on
> effectiveness it seems pretty obvious microwaved mites OR their eggs would
> be pretty dead. I've never taken these measures but would probably do so
> if the rats had mites & extra measures were required.
> -paghat the ratgirl
>
> --
> "Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
> "Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
> -from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
> Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com
I've also heard about using the microwave to kill mites. Never personally
tried it though.
Tracey
jakewc2
"Brenda G. Kent" <wt...@victoria.tc.ca> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.58.04...@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca...
> hate to see gossip ruin good businesses.
>
> Blessings in us all getting the correct info...
>
> Bren
>
> --
Aspen at all, not where I live anyway. I have been keeping hamsters for just
over three years, I've had upwards of 190 here, four different breeds. The
only bedding I could get in the beginning was pine, as carefresh wasn't
available here then, and have been using it ever since. The other problem we
have here, is that carefresh is so expensive, and to use it with all the
hamsters I have, just wouldn't be cost affective. Saying that, I know that
that should not be an issue. I have never seen any of the problems with it
that you have mentioned. I have hamsters here that are almost 2 years of
age, and still going. No problems. I have females with pups, none showing
any of the signs that are mentioned. I get my hamsters from breeders that
have been breeding for 20 years, that use Pine shavings, and they have show
quality hamsters, that regularly win BIS, and they show none of the symptoms
that have been mentioned. I know breeders that have been breeding for even
longer than that, and have visited their hamsteries, with all their hamsters
on Pine, and they show none of the signs mentioned above.
I run my own website for hamsters, and even though I use Pine, I always tell
people that I do use it, and if they use the stuff to watch out for what is
mentioned, the same as Aspen, and even now, I'm hearing about problems that
can occur with Carefresh. I've used carefresh, and have had terrible trouble
with dust, and the smell used to make me feel sick. If dust from carefresh
can affect me, what can it do too hamsters? I'm not saying that people
shouldn't use it, what I'm trying to say is that people should be made aware
of things, and they should make their own minds up, based on how their
hamsters are with certain products.
John.
J&S Bouchard
bad, I had a sneezing attack, out the door it went and no way will I use
Carefresh with my rats.
Brenda G. Kent
Very little in my experience.
*shrugs*
Bren (heh..no I don't work for Carefresh...just have'nt had any problems
whatsoever with it and the cages smell less than with woodchips.)
jakewc2
"Brenda G. Kent" <wt...@victoria.tc.ca> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.58.04...@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca...
>
> then you can just toss the tshirt in the wash once a week.
>
> Healthier and more environmental I would think.
>
>
> Bren
>
I am not saying that everybody has the same experience, what I'm trying to
get across is that whatever you decide to use, you need to be aware that
there are things that may cause your rats problems. I know people that use
carefresh and love it, and wont use anything else. I also know people that
use Aspen, and have not had a problem with it. With my own experience of
Pine. It is better, IMHO, that people know that what ever product they
used, there may be problems with it.
John.
Brenda G. Kent
then you can just toss the tshirt in the wash once a week.
Healthier and more environmental I would think.
J&S Bouchard
"Brenda G. Kent" <wt...@victoria.tc.ca> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.58.04...@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca...
>
> Very little in my experience.
>
> *shrugs*
>
>
> Bren (heh..no I don't work for Carefresh...just have'nt had any problems
> whatsoever with it and the cages smell less than with woodchips.)
>
>
It may have just been that one bag.
For my rats, I don't use any bedding, they have litter pans and bathmats and
towels in the cage.
Sobremonte Acres
use corn cobs bedding. I had no problem at all. One just turned 2
years old, healthy and chubby, the other two will be 2 years old in
February 12, '05. Both are fine. But the thing is that I'm allergic
to aspen. I've used Carefresh for them, that's only if the pet stores
have them avaliable and they are always out of stock for the larger
ones.
TJ
Sobremonte Acres
top of the bathmats?
TJ
J&S Bouchard
"Sobremonte Acres" <McDona...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:23396-41B...@storefull-3335.bay.webtv.net...
> Bathmats? Don't they chew them off? I bet you probably put towels on
> top of the bathmats?
>
> TJ
They chew a bit but not much. I put towels on certain levels but the main
levels have huge fluffy bathmats. I like the bathmats because it helps
prevent feet sores (bumblefoot).