Parrot worked to death?
M.J.
Have him worked to death by your research?
8-12 hours a day, every day, of gruelling mental exercise, just to
find out where the limits of avian intelligence exist! No wonder
Alex died so young.
Both you and Brandeis University should be ashamed of yourselves!
Bird Brain Dies After Years of Research
WALTHAM, Mass. (AP) - Alex, a parrot that could count to six, identify
colors and even express frustration with repetitive scientific trials, has
died after 30 years of helping researchers better understand the avian
brain.
The cause of Alex's death was unknown. The African grey parrot's
average life span is 50 years, Brandeis University scientist Irene
Pepperberg said. Alex was discovered dead in his cage Friday, she said, but
she waited to release the news until this week so grieving researchers could
get over the shock and talk about it.
"It's devastating to lose an individual you've worked with pretty much
every day for 30 years," Pepperberg told The Boston Globe. "Someone was
working with him eight to 12 hours every day of his life."
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jZeZSFfWilDZgoL8xPOU3KbQO2_g
Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Foren...@hotmail.com
On Sep 14, 2:14 am, "M.J." <M...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Is this what you did to the poor creature, Ms Irene Pepperberg?
> Have him worked to death by your research? > 8-12 hours a day,
> every day, of gruelling mental exercise, just to find out where the
> limits of avian intelligence exist! No wonder Alex died so young.
Could be, M.J. The scientific evidence well documents that liklihood
<{}: ~ ( >
> Both you and Brandeis University should be ashamed of yourselves!
Not likely, M.J. They're SCIENTISTS!:
Subject: R.P.D.B. Syndrome
http://www.phule.net/mirrors/unskilled-and-unaware.html
http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf
UNSKILLED AND UNAWARE OF IT: HOW DIFFICULTIES
IN RECOGNIZING ONE'S OWN INCOMPETENCE LEAD
TO INFLATED SELF-ASSESSMENTS
Across 4 studies, the authors found that participants
scoring in the bottom quartile... grossly overestimated
their best performance and ability. Although their test
scores put them in the 12th percentile, they estimated
themselves to be in the 62nd.
- Never attribute to malice that which
can be adequately explained by stupidity.
- Sufficiently advanced incompetence is
indistinguishable from malice.
- Insufficiently advanced malice is
indistinguishable from incompetence.
------------------------
SEE?
R.I.P. Alex <{}: ~ ( >
> Bird Brain Dies After Years of Research
>
> WALTHAM, Mass. (AP) - Alex, a parrot that could count to six, identify
> colors and even express frustration with repetitive scientific trials, has
> died after 30 years of helping researchers better understand the avian
> brain.
>
> The cause of Alex's death was unknown. The African grey parrot's
> average life span is 50 years, Brandeis University scientist Irene
> Pepperberg said. Alex was discovered dead in his cage Friday, she
> said, but she waited to release the news until this week so grieving
> researchers could get over the shock and talk about it.
>
> "It's devastating to lose an individual you've worked with pretty much
> every day for 30 years," Pepperberg told The Boston Globe. "Someone
> was working with him eight to 12 hours every day of his life."
>
> http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jZeZSFfWilDZgoL8xPOU3KbQO2_g
>
> http://vvi.onstreammedia.com/cgi-bin/visearch?user=pbs-saf&template=p...
Ahhh, SCHEDULING and CLICKER TRAINING!
THAT MAKES DOGS GO INSANE!
Clicker training increases anXXXIHOWESNESS to dangerHOWES
levels where seizures, aggression and obsessive compulsive behaviors
like self mutilation occure <{}: ~ ( >
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy,
Child, Pussy, Birdy, Goat, Ferret, Monkey SpHOWES And Horsey Wizard
*(http://www.freewebs.com/thesimplyamazingpuppywizard) ALWAYS
recommends BREAKING the habituation of SCHEDULES and NEVER
offering and witholding bribes and giving physical REWARDS for
behaviors
on accHOWENTA you can END UP DEAD over it:
Death Producing Ulcers:
"Emotional Influences On Health & Behavior"
Dr. George Von Hilsheimer
Illness is directly related to depression and lack of
adjustment, particularly to a new environment (Parens,
McConville & Kaplan, 1966).
A WIDE RANGE of PSYCHOSOMATIC or CORTICOVISCERAL
DIS-EASES was surveyed by Wittkower (1965) to demonstrate
the enormous importance of emotional factors in general health.
Interview findings of emotional material (recently experienced
hopelessness) pryor to biological examinations correctly identified
11 out of 19 with cervical cancer, and 25 of 32 who were cancer
free even though psychological tests failed to discriminate these
groups (Schmale & Iker, 1966)
150 lung cancer patients showed significantly constricted
expression of emotions. The had fewer childhood behavior
problems, and lower neuroticism score than their cancer
free controls. Heavy cigarette smokers who DO NOT
INHALE are more apt to have LUNG CANCER. They, too,
show LOWER neuroticism scores.
Among heavy cigarette smokers poor emotional
expression is as highly related to cancer as urban
residence and is more important than a chronic cough
or an air polluted environment (Kissen, 1966).
A ten year observation of all the women who developed
cancer in an isolated pupulation of 2,550 showed that
they tended to be unstable or sub stable personalities
characterized by melancholy and extraversion, especially
marked with those of an undecided body build (Hagll,
1966). Personality dynamics effect both the development
of cancer and it's SITE. Cancer may result from what
appears to be a failure to grow--somatically, behaviorally
and psychologically (Grinker, 1966).
In 109 cases leukemia and lymphoma were associated
with a number of losses or separations and with feelings
of sadness, anxiety, anger or hopelessness.The PRIMARY
FACTOR seems to be the shame and hopelessness of
running out of psychological resources (Green, 1966).
Cervical cancer patients are less emotionally responsive,
more isolative, and less frequently diagnosed as having
clinical neuroses than cancer free patients.
There is NO CLEAR DIFFERENCE in their FEELINGS
and ATTITUDES toward coitus (Rotkin, Qunk, &
Couchman, 1965).
Schmidt (1966) surveyed nearly 100 studies of behaviorally
induced DIS-EASE in animals CONFIRMING and EXTENDING
the DATA on PEOPLE. Behaviorally induced DIS-EASES tend
to fall into two groups;
(1) Hysteriform problems, which INCLUDE HYSTERICAL
SEIZURES and FORMS of AGGRESSION as well as
collective panic and epilepsies;
(2) organic modifications, including functional
difficulties and lesions affecting gastro intestinal,
cardio vascular, respiratory, sexual, endocrine, skin,
urinary, and neuro muscular systems.
It is INTERESTING, and SLIGHTLY HORRIFYING,
to note that the ONLY SCIENTIFIC RELEVANCE
of the standard six hour school day that I have
been able to detect in research is that Sawrey
and Weisz quite by accident found that six hours
on and six hour off of "EXECUTIVE BEHAVIOR"
in monkeys was the ONLY TIME STRUCTURE
that INDUCED DEATH PRODUCING ULCERS.
-----------------
SEE?
"Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens!"
-Friedrich Schiller.
"Against stupidity the Gods themselves contend in vain."
INDEEDY.
AND THAT'S HOWE COME THEY GOT ME NHOWE!
In Love And Light,
I Remain Respectfully, Humbly Yours,
Jerry Howe,
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
A-M-A-Z-I-N-G
G-R-A-N-D
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy, Ferret, Goat, Monkey,
SpHOWES And Horsey Wizard <{) ; ~ ) >
HOWE MAY I SERVE YOU <{}; ~ ) >
Sincerely,
Jerry Howe,
Director of Research,
Human And Animal Behavior
Forensic Sciences Research Laboratory,
BIOSOUND Scientific,
Director of Training,
Wits' End Dog Training
1611 24th St
Orlando, FL 32805
Phone: 1-407-425-5092
E-mails:
Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Foren...@HotMail.Com
Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Foren...@HotMail.Com
TheAmazing...@Mail.Com
M.J.
wrote in message news:1189753631....@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> HOWEDY M.J.,
>
> On Sep 14, 2:14 am, "M.J." <M...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Is this what you did to the poor creature, Ms Irene Pepperberg?
>> Have him worked to death by your research? > 8-12 hours a day,
>> every day, of gruelling mental exercise, just to find out where the
>> limits of avian intelligence exist! No wonder Alex died so young.
>
> Could be, M.J. The scientific evidence well documents that liklihood
> <{}: ~ ( >
>
>> Both you and Brandeis University should be ashamed of yourselves!
>
> Not likely, M.J. They're SCIENTISTS!:
If Dr.Irene Pepperberg is not mad she ought to stop,
and seriously re-think what she's doing. to these birds,
before another suffers a pre-mature death.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that such
a rigorous curriculum that she's subjecting the birds to,
must over time be extremely traumatic to the birds and
in particular their brains.
There is no point in letting another parrot perish
for the sake of teaching it to count to seven, or eight,
or some other similar achievement.
Alex, and Dr.Pepperberg's research has shown a lot,
there is no point in streching it too far. Besides she may
get better results following a more leisurely path. Had
Alex lived another 10 or 20 years, he might have
progressed farther.
M.J.
Joanne
"M.J." <M.J.@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2aCGi.3046$Sd4...@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
> If Dr.Irene Pepperberg is not mad she ought to stop,
> and seriously re-think what she's doing. to these birds,
> before another suffers a pre-mature death.
>
> There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that such
> a rigorous curriculum that she's subjecting the birds to,
> must over time be extremely traumatic to the birds and
> in particular their brains.
>
> There is no point in letting another parrot perish
> for the sake of teaching it to count to seven, or eight,
> or some other similar achievement.
>
> Alex, and Dr.Pepperberg's research has shown a lot,
> there is no point in streching it too far. Besides she may
> get better results following a more leisurely path. Had
> Alex lived another 10 or 20 years, he might have
> progressed farther.
>
> M.J.
What are you basing this tirade upon? The birds are not doing push-ups.
They are thinking. Since when is thinking hazardous to health? I recall
Alex being quite in control of ending sessions. He had the final word about
his limits. Likely, he enjoyed the attention and stimulation. I recall
that his "family" was small and he "tested" lab newcomers to see how much
they understood. His worldwide recognition wasn't because he did bus tours.
His videos were circulated. His life was probably as ordinary as any of our
birds upon which we lavish time, energy and attention.
Sincerely,
Joanne
Dave Bugg
> What are you basing this tirade upon? The birds are not doing
> push-ups. They are thinking. Since when is thinking hazardous to
> health? .....Snip
Apparently M.J. has proven beyond all doubt that thinking is hazardous when
attempted by that ilk of animal rights 'experts'.
--
Dave
www.davebbq.com
M.J.
"Joanne" <Joa...@jobirdnest.com> wrote in message
news:13em0sc...@corp.supernews.com...
> "M.J." <M.J.@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:2aCGi.3046$Sd4...@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
>> If Dr.Irene Pepperberg is not mad she ought to stop,
>> and seriously re-think what she's doing. to these birds,
>> before another suffers a pre-mature death.
>>
>> There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that such
>> a rigorous curriculum that she's subjecting the birds to,
>> must over time be extremely traumatic to the birds and
>> in particular their brains.
>>
>> There is no point in letting another parrot perish
>> for the sake of teaching it to count to seven, or eight,
>> or some other similar achievement.
>>
>> Alex, and Dr.Pepperberg's research has shown a lot,
>> there is no point in streching it too far. Besides she may
>> get better results following a more leisurely path. Had
>> Alex lived another 10 or 20 years, he might have
>> progressed farther.
>>
>> M.J.
>
> What are you basing this tirade upon? The birds are not doing push-ups.
> They are thinking.
And thinking means the same thing for a human
brain and a parrot brain, right? Gosh, you lack
imagination, Joanne.
> Since when is thinking hazardous to health?
Yours/humans, or a parrot's?
Have in mind the bird was subjected to rigourous 8-12 hour
training days. Supposedly no vacations, few if any days off.
Just constant training by a whole staff of graduate students etc.
All in hope of testing the limits of avian intelligence!
Well, until an unexplained and pre-mature death at 31.
> I recall Alex being quite in control of ending sessions.
Dr. Peperrberg was recently taking the bird to a more
complex and mentally demanding level of training, i.e. teaching
the bird 'compound words.'
>He had the final word about his limits.
Exactly!!!
> Likely, he enjoyed the attention and stimulation.
Please.
The bird was subject to continuous and prolonged
mental exercise, which, no doubt, traumatized its brain.
Alex'es mental prowess may seem natural to a human
TV viewer, but for the parrot it took years of unusually
elevated brain metabolism to accomplish- read unusually
hard mental labour (!) that most likely caused, or contributed
to the birds demise.
These magnificent creatures evolved to burn thousands
upon thousands of calories with the movement of their
wings ...not continuous neverending straining of their brains!
> I recall that his "family" was small and he "tested" lab newcomers to see
> how much they understood. His worldwide recognition wasn't because he did
> bus tours. His videos were circulated. His life was probably as ordinary
> as any of our birds upon which we lavish time, energy and attention.
Alex'es life was not ordinary!
Please understand this fact?
M.J.
> Sincerely,
> Joanne
>
M.J.
I strongly suspect that recent efforts to take the birds
thinking to a human like level of abstraction ('compound words')
may have dealt Alex a final blow. Complex abstract thinking
is the stuff of most advanced creatures- primates/humans.
Dr.Pepperberg just started to introduce Alex's brain fully to
this new world of more complex human like thinking.
M.J.
Joanne
> I strongly suspect that recent efforts to take the birds
> thinking to a human like level of abstraction ('compound words')
> may have dealt Alex a final blow. Complex abstract thinking
> is the stuff of most advanced creatures- primates/humans.
>
> Dr.Pepperberg just started to introduce Alex's brain fully to
> this new world of more complex human like thinking.
>
> M.J.
If you are right, wouldn't a necropsy have determined some abnormal brain
tissue physiology? You can be sure this bird didn't get the slam-bam type
of necropsy most pets and breeders do.
I hope they preserved his brain tissue (bet they did) for future, more
advanced testing as it becomes available.
I wonder if they would have admitted to something as simple as a virus or an
infection brought in by an assistant's lack of hygiene. (You know me - Queen
of "the germs are out to get our darlings" theory!)
--
Sincerely,
Joanne
If it's right for you, then it's right, . . . . . for you!!!
http://www.jobird.com
Wonders of Western Washington Video collection:
http://www.jobird.com/private/wondersindex.htm
Ocean of Nuance
|
| "M.J." <M.J.@yahoo.com> wrote in message
| news:8zEGi.76$6p6...@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...
| > I strongly suspect that recent efforts to take the birds
| > thinking to a human like level of abstraction ('compound words')
| > may have dealt Alex a final blow. Complex abstract thinking
| > is the stuff of most advanced creatures- primates/humans.
| >
| > Dr.Pepperberg just started to introduce Alex's brain fully to
| > this new world of more complex human like thinking.
| >
| > M.J.
|
| If you are right, wouldn't a necropsy have determined some abnormal brain
| tissue physiology? You can be sure this bird didn't get the slam-bam type
| of necropsy most pets and breeders do.
|
| I hope they preserved his brain tissue (bet they did) for future, more
| advanced testing as it becomes available.
|
| I wonder if they would have admitted to something as simple as a virus or
an
| infection brought in by an assistant's lack of hygiene. (You know me -
Queen
| of "the germs are out to get our darlings" theory!)
Can I just ask a question here?
How unheard of is a bird like this dying at 31?
I have a scientific colleague who had some type of bird like this (different
species) for several years. One year it died suddenly and I'm guessing it
was not wildly far from 31 based on what I know of the history. Jaws didn't
drop.
sharon
Joanne
"Ocean of Nuance" <lizzardw...@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
> Can I just ask a question here?
>
> How unheard of is a bird like this dying at 31?
>
> I have a scientific colleague who had some type of bird like this
> (different
> species) for several years. One year it died suddenly and I'm guessing it
> was not wildly far from 31 based on what I know of the history. Jaws
> didn't
> drop.
>
> sharon
It's a good point.
If 50 (I always believed the expectant age of a CAG was more comparable to a
human) is a normal full life for a CAG then 31 would compare to a human,
whose expected life is about 75, passing at age 47. It seems to me that
something would show up on a medical autopsy to explain that premature of a
death in a human. Why not in a bird?
31 is to 50 (50 may be questionable unless they are averaging pet birds
that die of neglect very early)
as
47 is to 75.
--
Sincerely,
Joanne
If it's right for you, then it's right, . . . . . for you!!!
http://www.jobird.com
Wonders of Western Washington Video collection:
http://www.jobird.com/private/wondersindex.htm
Any medical people have any thoughts?
M.J.
>
> "M.J." <M.J.@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:8zEGi.76$6p6...@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...
>> I strongly suspect that recent efforts to take the birds
>> thinking to a human like level of abstraction ('compound words')
>> may have dealt Alex a final blow. Complex abstract thinking
>> is the stuff of most advanced creatures- primates/humans.
>>
>> Dr.Pepperberg just started to introduce Alex's brain fully to
>> this new world of more complex human like thinking.
>>
>> M.J.
>
> If you are right, wouldn't a necropsy have determined some abnormal brain
> tissue physiology? You can be sure this bird didn't get the slam-bam type
> of necropsy most pets and breeders do.
Who knows?
Even if, he might not have displayed any obvious pathology
read: in an anatomical sense there might have been nothing
wrong, yet on a functional level his brain function might have
been seriously undermined in many ways.
For, example, a regular human brain MRI shows anatomy,
say a tumor, lesion, etc, (necropsy would show that), but it
takes a live PET scan to show if the organ is functioning
properly.
I don't think Alex was given such scans, and even if there
would be few references to compare it to. Who knows what
a properly functioning parrot brain PET scan image looks like?
> I hope they preserved his brain tissue (bet they did) for future, more
> advanced testing as it becomes available.
I hope too.
> I wonder if they would have admitted to something as simple as a virus or
> an infection brought in by an assistant's lack of hygiene. (You know me -
> Queen of "the germs are out to get our darlings" theory!)
I think they would admit to it if that was the case.
I sincerely think that Alexes brain over time might
have reached a functional/metabolic limit to the amount
of intense processing that it was capable of and this
caused or contributed in some way to his early demise.
M.J.
M.J.
> Can I just ask a question here?
>
> How unheard of is a bird like this dying at 31?
>
> I have a scientific colleague who had some type of bird like this
> (different
> species) for several years. One year it died suddenly and I'm guessing it
> was not wildly far from 31 based on what I know of the history. Jaws
> didn't
> drop.
And a bunch of top national avian specialists could not identify
the of the death? I don't think so!
Alex's death is troubling, in a sense that no cause of death has been
identified, therefore all the speculation.
M.J.
>
> sharon
>
jf...@ix.netcom.com
Bull crap. Tell that to a squirrel that is trying to get to some
bird food that some human is trying to make squirrel proof. I suspect
the squirrel would laugh at you. Maybe that is what they are doing
with their chattering.
>Dr.Pepperberg just started to introduce Alex's brain fully to
>this new world of more complex human like thinking.
My girlfriend had a Quaker that put ideas together to an end
result by his talking. He knew that calling for "Jimmy" would bring
her father and when he showed up at the cage he put that together one
day out of the blue with "Freddy want" that he had been saying. And
when he was asked "Freddy want what" the Quaker responded with "Freddy
want a cracker." Which meant he wanted a Cheerio.
He called a member of his flock over to his cage told them what
he wanted and got it without having put that sequence of events in
motion before. He knew exactly what he was doing and got it done.
Don't give me no crap about the bird being subjected to rigorous
mental exercises to get it to communicate it's wants to a human in our
language. This bird went beyond compound words to thinking his
actions through and getting what he wanted with complex phrases.
This bird also learned how to escape from his own cage even when
extreme measures were taken to keep him in. While he was at a friends
house being watched while their family was out of town, he escaped
from his cage and was letting the rest of the birds that were being
cared for out of their cages. He learned a new right then. "Phooey"
became a word that he used when he tried something and got caught.
Every time the person that was sitting him at that time would say
"Phooey" when ever she tried to catch him and he avoided being caught.
It is too bad that the bird escaped one day while his cage was being
cleaned and was scared off by a squirrel and has not yet returned.
I have a seven week old Cherry-head conure that I can place on
its back and will stay there while I scratch it's belly. It has
already learned to get on my finger on command. It has already been
practicing flying and, today, surprised me when it actually pushed off
from its perch and flew towards me, not very successful at flying but
did manage to get to me without hitting the floor. It hasn't quite
got the lift thing figured out yet Maybe it still has some baby fat
to shed. It did make the attempt and is learning faster than I
thought it would. I think it is even attempting to talk. It is
still being mostly hand fed.
James F. Mayer
President
J F M Electronic Systems, Inc. Surge Protection for Access Control
E-Mail jf...@ix.netcom.com
Web Page http://home.netcom.com/~jfma/
EarthLink Revolves Around You.
Ocean of Nuance
Is it not too early to expect a cause of death announcement?
sharon
--
"Lights will guide you home
And ignite your bones
And I will try to fix you"
-- C. Martin
M.J.
news:eobme3hnljvua42mf...@4ax.com...
Tell that to a human POW who is being interrogated hours
upon hours, daily, for many weeks, and finally breaks down
to tell anything and everything, who and tells that if the enemy
broke his arms, or legs, or shot him he wouldn't have told,
but messing with his brain, through sustained mental stress
combined with sleep deprivation finally took its toll, and
caused utter breakdown.
We are talking human brain here, not parrot.
Alexe was in a way "interrogated" many hours a day for many
years. It is ridiculous to even think that this lifestyle had no effect
upon him.
Of course the hypothesis that he was mentally worked to death
is just that a hypothesis, but since no cause of death has been
identified it is as good as anything else, perhaps even most plausible.
M.J.
M.J.
>> Bull crap. Tell that to a squirrel that is trying to get to some
>> bird food that some human is trying to make squirrel proof.
>
>
> Tell that to a human POW who is being interrogated hours
> upon hours, daily, for many weeks, and finally breaks down
> to tell anything and everything, who and tells that if the enemy
> broke his arms, or legs, or shot him he wouldn't have told,
> but messing with his brain, through sustained mental stress
> combined with sleep deprivation finally took its toll, and
> caused utter breakdown.
>
> We are talking human brain here, not parrot.
>
> Alexe was in a way "interrogated" many hours a day for many
> years. It is ridiculous to even think that this lifestyle had no effect
> upon him.
>
> Of course the hypothesis that he was mentally worked to death
> is just that a hypothesis, but since no cause of death has been
> identified it is as good as anything else, perhaps even most plausible.
After all, Alex was part of an ongoing mental experiment to
test the limits of avian intelligence. The experiment ended
abruptly with an unexplained, premature death of the bird.
Please do not forget, this is exactly what happened from
a scientific perspective. The African Grey subject among
many other things learned to count to six, or seven.
M.J.
>
> M.J.
M.J.
>Of course the hypothesis that he was mentally worked to death
>is just that a hypothesis, but since no cause of death has been
>identified it is as good as anything else, perhaps even most plausible.
> After all, Alex was part of an ongoing mental experiment to
>test the limits of avian intelligence. The experiment ended
>abruptly with an unexplained, premature death of the bird.
>
> Please do not forget, this is exactly what happened from
> a scientific perspective. The African Grey subject among
> many other things learned to count to six, or seven.
I'll repeat once more!
Is this what you did to the poor creature, Ms Irene Pepperberg?
Have him worked to death by your research?
8-12 hours a day, every day, of gruelling mental exercise, just to
find out where the limits of avian intelligence exist! No wonder
Alex died so young.
Both you and Brandeis University should be ashamed of yourselves!
M.J.
max
"M.J." <M.J.@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'll repeat once more!
>
> Is this what you did to the poor creature, Ms Irene Pepperberg?
>
> Have him worked to death by your research?
> 8-12 hours a day, every day, of gruelling mental exercise, just to
> find out where the limits of avian intelligence exist! No wonder
> Alex died so young.
What you are describing is a death due to prolonged mental stress. fine.
Typically, when an animal, human or otherwise, is under chronic mental
stress, we observe manifestations selected from several dimensions of
measurable behavior and condition. A trivial and incomplete list might
include significant weight change, diet selection change, blood chemistry
changes, sleep disorders, hair (or feather) pulling, self mutilation,
violence, copraphagy etc.
Given that Alex was, in fact, one of -- quite possibly _the_ -- most studied
parrot in all of history, one might reasonably expect to have seen evidence
of some sort of stress disorders.
Where is your evidence of such stress? I've seen the same films as everyone
else of Alex (some presented by Dr. Pepperberg herself, in fact) and i've
never seen as much as the hint of a scintilla of evidence of any
stress-related pathology, mental or physical, in the bird.
So what is your secret evidence?
Grueling mental exercise, my aunt fannie.
.max
more like the best care and play time a parrot could ever hope for.
max
"M.J." <M.J.@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Of course the hypothesis that he was mentally worked to death
> is just that a hypothesis, but since no cause of death has been
> identified it is as good as anything else, perhaps even most plausible.
No, it is not "as good as anything else".
Well, maybe it is. Let's apply your standards of plausibility:
I think you, <M.J.@yahoo.com>, snuck into the lab and killed Alex.
.max
did you suffocate him or break his neck?
M.J.
"max" <beta...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:13emjp3...@corp.supernews.com...
> In article <zDHGi.26846$eY....@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net>,
> "M.J." <M.J.@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I'll repeat once more!
>>
>> Is this what you did to the poor creature, Ms Irene Pepperberg?
>>
>> Have him worked to death by your research?
>> 8-12 hours a day, every day, of gruelling mental exercise, just to
>> find out where the limits of avian intelligence exist! No wonder
>> Alex died so young.
>
> What you are describing is a death due to prolonged mental stress. fine.
>
> Typically, when an animal, human or otherwise, is under chronic mental
> stress,
No, it is not fine, as the type of stress Alex was subjected to
is not comparable to anything else that an animal may encounter
in nature.
Usually stress means fear, hunger, uncertainty, noise, many other
environmental factors. A 30 year rigorous regiment of learning
to think abstractly, admionistered from the earliest age, is a stress
factor different than anything a parrot can encounter and there is
no way to judge how the creature will react to it (that is long term
effect).
In this case a long term consequense is apparently untimely death,
or that is the suspicion.
I am certain that if it were a wild-caught bird that were subjected
to Dr.Pepperbergs regiment of 8 to 12 hour per day mental
exercise, not a human imprinted bird, you would have observed
some more evident signs of distress. I suspect a wild caught bird
would defend itself from the "abuse" or would have sucumbed/expired
much earlier.
M.J.
jf...@ix.netcom.com
I'd think it was too early. They haven't had time to get the lab
tests back or any other forensics done.
jf...@ix.netcom.com
I doubt the sleep depravation or any other stress of which you are
attributing to his demise. I keep my birds up late because they are
in the same room as my work station at home. they seem to be none the
worse for the wear. The bird would have turned into an utter terror
to get near.
>We are talking human brain here, not parrot.
>
And you are attempting to attribute human characteristics to a
bird.
>Alexe was in a way "interrogated" many hours a day for many
>years. It is ridiculous to even think that this lifestyle had no effect
>upon him.
>
How many other parrots have done to them what you are ascribing
to this bird and have out live their care takers? Every captive or
pet parrot, every day, goes through un-natural behaviors just to exist
and seem to come out just fine if they have a knowledgeable and
trusted caretaker.
>Of course the hypothesis that he was mentally worked to death
>is just that a hypothesis, but since no cause of death has been
>identified it is as good as anything else, perhaps even most plausible.
>
>M.J.
>
They haven't had enough time to get their lab results back. You
are jumping to conclusions on facts not in evidence.
jf...@ix.netcom.com
So? there are other non-primates that can count even higher.
Counting didn't seem to affect them. What is this big brouhaha about
counting anyway? I'd think that problem solving would be a much more
difficult task like the Quaker I was referring to previously and
conferring his needs and desires to his human caretaker in human
language and putting different thoughts together to get that
accomplished. He knew what "Jimmy" and "Freddy want" would do and
what "Freddy want a cracker" would get him. He put them together to
coherently and in the proper sequence to get his desired outcome. I'd
call that a bird training his human. We humans don't speak parrot
very well.
jf...@ix.netcom.com
>
>"M.J." <M.J.@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:08HGi.26844$eY.2...@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net...
>
>>Of course the hypothesis that he was mentally worked to death
>>is just that a hypothesis, but since no cause of death has been
>>identified it is as good as anything else, perhaps even most plausible.
>> After all, Alex was part of an ongoing mental experiment to
>>test the limits of avian intelligence. The experiment ended
>>abruptly with an unexplained, premature death of the bird.
>>
>> Please do not forget, this is exactly what happened from
>> a scientific perspective. The African Grey subject among
>> many other things learned to count to six, or seven.
>
>
>I'll repeat once more!
>
You can repeat it until the cows come home but that doesn't make
it true and they are probably not reading this group, so your rants
are not being heard. You are just screaming into a full gale.
>Is this what you did to the poor creature, Ms Irene Pepperberg?
>
Rant on if you need to clear your mind.
>Have him worked to death by your research?
Rant some more if it will help.
>8-12 hours a day, every day, of gruelling mental exercise, just to
>find out where the limits of avian intelligence exist!
We do the same thing with our children and our mentally
challenged in school but that's somehow different.
> No wonder Alex died so young.
>
There are humans that die young too from things that have gone
un-noticed for years too but that is, somehow, different to you. Maybe
they will come up with just why he died after all of the tests are in
but you want to rant on about facts that are not in evidence to push
some political agenda you might have. You probably won't be satisfied
even then because you have an axe to grind and accuse the labs and
whoever else is involved in a cover up to hide the truth.
>Both you and Brandeis University should be ashamed of yourselves!
>
No, you just want to justify your preconceptions and your personal
views by taking advantage of any problem that arises from any animal
research.
Ocean of Nuance
<jf...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:agkne3turom9io071...@4ax.com...
| On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 02:41:35 GMT, "M.J." <M.J.@yahoo.com> wrote:
(snip)
| > No wonder Alex died so young.
| >
|
| There are humans that die young too from things that have gone
| un-noticed for years too but that is, somehow, different to you. Maybe
| they will come up with just why he died after all of the tests are in
| but you want to rant on about facts that are not in evidence to push
| some political agenda you might have. You probably won't be satisfied
| even then because you have an axe to grind and accuse the labs and
| whoever else is involved in a cover up to hide the truth.
The data likely don't exist but I'd like to know the mortality rate of 31 yo
AG parrots. I think it's safe to assume it is non-zero and not just because
of Alex.
sharon
jf...@ix.netcom.com
>
>"max" <beta...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:13emjp3...@corp.supernews.com...
>> In article <zDHGi.26846$eY....@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net>,
>> "M.J." <M.J.@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'll repeat once more!
>>>
>>> Is this what you did to the poor creature, Ms Irene Pepperberg?
>>>
>>> Have him worked to death by your research?
>>> 8-12 hours a day, every day, of gruelling mental exercise, just to
>>> find out where the limits of avian intelligence exist! No wonder
>>> Alex died so young.
>>
>> What you are describing is a death due to prolonged mental stress. fine.
>>
>> Typically, when an animal, human or otherwise, is under chronic mental
>> stress,
>
>
>No, it is not fine, as the type of stress Alex was subjected to
>is not comparable to anything else that an animal may encounter
>in nature.
>
Neither is talking in human language.
>Usually stress means fear, hunger, uncertainty, noise, many other
>environmental factors. A 30 year rigorous regiment of learning
>to think abstractly, admionistered from the earliest age, is a stress
>factor different than anything a parrot can encounter and there is
>no way to judge how the creature will react to it (that is long term
>effect).
>
Really? Problem solving is something parrots don't encounter
every day?
>In this case a long term consequense is apparently untimely death,
>or that is the suspicion.
>
That is YOUR suspicion with a lack of credible evidence to back it
up other than your theory that may be proven false as the forensics
are conducted.
>I am certain that if it were a wild-caught bird that were subjected
>to Dr.Pepperbergs regiment of 8 to 12 hour per day mental
>exercise, not a human imprinted bird, you would have observed
>some more evident signs of distress. I suspect a wild caught bird
>would defend itself from the "abuse" or would have sucumbed/expired
>much earlier.
>
Your suspicions and speculations don't seem to be supported by
the evidence so far. You want to rant on about something you have no
evidence that supports your assertion.
It seems that you want to stir people up and start some sort of
campaign against the researchers and the university to satisfy some
inner need of yours.
>M.J.
>we observe manifestations selected from several dimensions of
>> measurable behavior and condition. A trivial and incomplete list might
>> include significant weight change, diet selection change, blood chemistry
>> changes, sleep disorders, hair (or feather) pulling, self mutilation,
>> violence, copraphagy etc.
>>
>> Given that Alex was, in fact, one of -- quite possibly _the_ -- most
>> studied
>> parrot in all of history, one might reasonably expect to have seen
>> evidence
>> of some sort of stress disorders.
>>
>> Where is your evidence of such stress? I've seen the same films as
>> everyone
>> else of Alex (some presented by Dr. Pepperberg herself, in fact) and i've
>> never seen as much as the hint of a scintilla of evidence of any
>> stress-related pathology, mental or physical, in the bird.
>>
>> So what is your secret evidence?
>>
>>
>> Grueling mental exercise, my aunt fannie.
>>
>> .max
>> more like the best care and play time a parrot could ever hope for.
>
jf...@ix.netcom.com
wrote:
Maybe something or someone else sneaking into the lab scared Alex
to death. Could have been strange or loud noises too. One may never
know unless he and the lab were being recorded 24/7 with audio.
Terry von Gease
It's a fucking bird, you insufferable moron. A bundle of feathers and
adrenaline and little else, certainly no cognitive tackle of the magnitude
that you presume. Your multi-post rant is a sure contender for the most
contrived anthropomorphic bullshit ever produced by a single being on a
single topic.
--
Terry
"I said I never had much use for one,
I never said I didn't know how to use one."
M. Quigley
Francis Burton
M.J. <M.J.@yahoo.com> wrote:
>For, example, a regular human brain MRI shows anatomy,
>say a tumor, lesion, etc, (necropsy would show that), but it
>takes a live PET scan to show if the organ is functioning
>properly.
And Alex is no longer a live PET. :-(
Francis
Louis Boyd
This thread is ridiculous. If bird abuse is a concern pick on Colonel
Sanders or Tyson Foods, not Dr. Pepperberg. If Alex was over worked it
certainly wasn't as abusive as for all the pet birds that are caged and
ignored.
Peter Hucker
>
> "Ocean of Nuance" <lizzardw...@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
>> Can I just ask a question here?
>>
>> How unheard of is a bird like this dying at 31?
>>
>> I have a scientific colleague who had some type of bird like this
>> (different
>> species) for several years. One year it died suddenly and I'm guessing it
>> was not wildly far from 31 based on what I know of the history. Jaws
>> didn't
>> drop.
>>
>> sharon
>
>
> It's a good point.
>
> If 50 (I always believed the expectant age of a CAG was more comparable to a
> human) is a normal full life for a CAG then 31 would compare to a human,
> whose expected life is about 75, passing at age 47. It seems to me that
> something would show up on a medical autopsy to explain that premature of a
> death in a human. Why not in a bird?
Because we know less about birds?
> 31 is to 50 (50 may be questionable unless they are averaging pet birds
> that die of neglect very early)
> as
> 47 is to 75.
--
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| |##/#
| | //##
\'---'/ |//
'.°O°.'_ /
/ ___: |
( : |_ |
\___,__: |
| |
Peter Hucker
Fuck off.
--
This message has been brought to you by solar and wind power. Who needs the national grid?
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I am a victim of the latest scam in Columbus which is happening at the Polaris Mall.
Beware, this could happen at any mall.
The scam: Two hot 21 year old blondes come to your care as you are parking.
The first one starts wiping your windshield with a rag and Windex.
The other one say comes over to your window, says, "Hi," all the while bending over with her breasts bursting their way out of her shirt.
Of course, it's impossible not to look.
When you thank them and offer them a tip, they decline and beg you for a ride to the Easton Mall.
You agree and tell them to sit in the back.
On the way they start having oral sex with each other.
One eventually will crawl into the front seat and go down on you -- and here's the scam part -- while the other one steals your wallet.
So far, I was assaulted last Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday, but I couldn't find them Saturday or Sunday.
Peter Hucker
You appear to be assuming she reads newsgroups.
--
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Basketball analyst: "He dribbles a lot and the opposition doesn't like it. In fact you can see it all over their faces."
Peter Hucker
You have a point there. I'd rather have to think hard all day than sit doing nothing.
--
This message has been brought to you by solar and wind power. Who needs the national grid?
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com
Runtime Error 6D at 417A:32CF: Incompetent User.
Peter Hucker
> On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 04:02:29 GMT, "M.J." <M.J.@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> "max" <beta...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:13emjp3...@corp.supernews.com...
>>> In article <zDHGi.26846$eY....@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net>,
>>> "M.J." <M.J.@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'll repeat once more!
>>>>
>>>> Is this what you did to the poor creature, Ms Irene Pepperberg?
>>>>
>>>> Have him worked to death by your research?
>>>> 8-12 hours a day, every day, of gruelling mental exercise, just to
>>>> find out where the limits of avian intelligence exist! No wonder
>>>> Alex died so young.
>>>
>>> What you are describing is a death due to prolonged mental stress. fine.
>>>
>>> Typically, when an animal, human or otherwise, is under chronic mental
>>> stress,
>>
>>
>> No, it is not fine, as the type of stress Alex was subjected to
>> is not comparable to anything else that an animal may encounter
>> in nature.
>>
> Neither is talking in human language.
They do this of their own accord.
>> Usually stress means fear, hunger, uncertainty, noise, many other
>> environmental factors. A 30 year rigorous regiment of learning
>> to think abstractly, admionistered from the earliest age, is a stress
>> factor different than anything a parrot can encounter and there is
>> no way to judge how the creature will react to it (that is long term
>> effect).
>>
> Really? Problem solving is something parrots don't encounter
> every day?
Not 100 times a day.
--
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Bonny Prince Charles was backing his Land Rover out of the garage when
he ran over the Queen's favorite Welsh corgi. He got out and found the
corgi dead, squashed to a pulp. Just then a Genie popped up and said
"Your highness, I can give you one wish. What would you like?" The
Prince said "This is mummy's favorite dog. Can you bring it back to
life?" The Genie said "Let's have a look at the dog. Oh no, nothing can
be done with this dog, you ran over it with the Land Rover there is too
much damage to the dog ...nothing can be done." "But you must," says the
Prince, "It's mummy's favorite!" "I'm sorry" said the Genie, "there's no
way I can bring it back to life." "OK" said the prince, "But do I still
have a wish?" "Yes", said the Genie. "Well", said the Prince, "I'm
marrying Camilla in April. Could you make her as beautiful as Diana
was?" The Genie thought for a while then said, "Let's have another look
at the dog.
Dave Bugg
> On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 03:41:35 +0100, M.J. <M.J.@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> "M.J." <M.J.@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:08HGi.26844$eY.2...@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net...
>>
>>> Of course the hypothesis that he was mentally worked to death
>>> is just that a hypothesis, but since no cause of death has been
>>> identified it is as good as anything else, perhaps even most
>>> plausible. After all, Alex was part of an ongoing mental
>>> experiment to
>>> test the limits of avian intelligence. The experiment ended
>>> abruptly with an unexplained, premature death of the bird.
>>>
>>> Please do not forget, this is exactly what happened from
>>> a scientific perspective. The African Grey subject among
>>> many other things learned to count to six, or seven.
>>
>>
>> I'll repeat once more!
>>
>> Is this what you did to the poor creature, Ms Irene Pepperberg?
>>
>> Have him worked to death by your research?
>> 8-12 hours a day, every day, of gruelling mental exercise, just to
>> find out where the limits of avian intelligence exist! No wonder
>> Alex died so young.
>>
>> Both you and Brandeis University should be ashamed of yourselves!
>
> You appear to be assuming she reads newsgroups.
<snork> :-O
--
Dave
www.davebbq.com
Dave Bugg
Correct. They solve exactly 317.25 problems each day. Except on weekends and
when they go on vacation
--
Dave
www.davebbq.com
Bill Kambic
wrote:
<snipped for brevity>
>Fuck off.
The single, most brilliant comment yet.
M.J.
<jf...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:agkne3turom9io071...@4ax.com...
Blah, blah, blah.
I 've cut out the nonsense from your post, but will reply to your questions
about preconceived ideas and personal views. Sure I express my personal
views but these have extensive backing in real empirical data i.e.
experiences
I have gathered over a perion of nearly 10 years of being an TAG owner.
My 10 year old TAG (Timneh African Grey) Mbeki whom I have raised
and handfed since 6 weeks old is a cute playful and intelligent little
fellow.
Compared to Alex Mbeki is probalby a great moron as his vocabulary is
only around 6-7 words. I have subjected Mbeki to learning lessons many
times and have always noticed that the bird tires immensely after about
15-20 minutes of mental exercersise -becomes cranky, and wants to leave,
go back to the cage, playtop, or whatever.
Sure, slowly and over time he could be made to endure longer and longer
sessions until he probably would be able to withstand a gruelling 8-12 hour
working/learning day, but I know this would not be without a risk of
negative
long term consequenses.
Mbeki is my pet, and not some ALEX (Avian Learning EXperiment)
therefore I don't "torment" him past the 10-15 minute that he playfully
offers me.
M.J.
M.J.
Mbeki's name in English is pronounced M-bekee.
M.J.
Terry von Gease
"Peter Hucker" <no...@spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.typjuscr4buhsv@fx62...
It always amusing to attempt to correspond with a specimen as articulate as
you give every appearance of being.
Write when you learn how...
Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Foren...@hotmail.com
"M.J." <M.J.@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:2aCGi.
3046$Sd4...@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
> <Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Foren...@HotMail.Com>
> wrote in message news:1189753631....@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
>> HOWEDY M.J.,
>>
>> On Sep 14, 2:14 am, "M.J." <M...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Is this what you did to the poor creature, Ms Irene Pepperberg?
>>> Have him worked to death by your research? > 8-12 hours a day,
>>> every day, of gruelling mental exercise, just to find out where the
>>> limits of avian intelligence exist! No wonder Alex died so young.
Agreed <{}:* ~ ( >
>> Could be, M.J. The scientific evidence well
>> documents that liklihood <{}: ~ ( >
>
>>> Both you and Brandeis University should be ashamed of yourselves!
>
>> Not likely, M.J. They're SCIENTISTS!:
I find the level of incompetence demonstrated by university
trained behaviorists (several of whom I've CITED right here
on these forums), and professional animal trainers unequaled
by even the most backward mentally retarded imbecile idiots
and malevolent animal and human abusing researchers <{}: ~ ( >
Quoted from "Is There A Science Of Behavior" by
George Von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., an EXXXPOSE on
the university training being SOLD to unsuspecting
students:
"Schmidt (1966) surveyed nearly 100 studies of behaviorally
induced DIS-EASE in animals CONFIRMING and EXTENDING
the DATA on PEOPLE. Behaviorally induced DIS-EASES tend
to fall into two groups;
(1) Hysteriform problems, which INCLUDE HYSTERICAL
SEIZURES and FORMS of AGGRESSION as well as
collective panic and epilepsies;
(2) organic modifications, including functional
difficulties and lesions affecting gastro intestinal,
cardio vascular, respiratory, sexual, endocrine, skin,
urinary, and neuro muscular systems."
> If Dr.Irene Pepperberg is not mad she ought to stop,
> and seriously re-think what she's doing. to these birds,
> before another suffers a pre-mature death.
What she ought to do is STOP and RE-THINK her methods of
training. Alex was trained using so called Operant Conditioning,
the clicker training method, which relies on offering and witholding
REWARDS till the critter throws random, unthinking, meaningless
mindless behaviors till the REWARD is released from the human
Skinner Box <{}: ~ ( >
Quoted from "Is There A Science Of Behavior" by
George Von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., an EXXXPOSE on
the university training being SOLD to unsuspecting
students:
"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for
operant technique simply take the breath
away. Lovas et al (1966) report a standard
contingent reward/punishment procedure
developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys.
After twenty-six days the boys are reported
to have been learning new words with alacrity.
HOWEver, when REWARDS were moved to
a delayed contingency the behavior and learning
immediately deteriorated."
Clicker training INCREASES anXXXIHOWESNESS to
dangerHOWES levels where aggression, seizures and
obsessive compulsive disorders occure <{}: ~ ( >
Quoted from "Is There A Science Of Behavior" by
George Von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., an EXXXPOSE on
the university training being SOLD to unsuspecting
students:
"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVERY LEARNING
THEORY model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT.
Of curse, Skinner has never to my knowledge,
demonstrated HOWE we escape the phenomenon
that an expected reward not received is experienced
as a punishment and can produce extensive and
persistent aggression (Azrin et al, 1966)."
> There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that such
> a rigorous curriculum that she's subjecting the birds
> to,
Quoted from "Is There A Science Of Behavior" by
George Von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., an EXXXPOSE on
the university training being SOLD to unsuspecting
students:
"It is INTERESTING, and SLIGHTLY HORRIFYING,
to note that the ONLY SCIENTIFIC RELEVANCE
of the standard six hour school day that I have
been able to detect in research is that Sawrey
and Weisz quite by accident found that six hours
on and six hour off of "EXECUTIVE BEHAVIOR"
in monkeys was the ONLY TIME STRUCTURE
that INDUCED DEATH PRODUCING ULCERS."
> must over time be extremely traumatic to the birds
> and in particular their brains."
INDEEDY!:
"All animals learn best through play," -- Konrad Lorenz.
"...all the highest nervous activity, as it
manifests itself in the conditional reflex,
consists of a continual change of these three
fundamental processes -- excitation, inhibition
and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov
"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.
> There is no point in letting another parrot perish
> for the sake of teaching it to count to seven, or eight,
> or some other similar achievement.
Alex's achievements would have been much greater,
faster, and less traumatic had the researchers known
and used more effective methods like those taught in
my FREE Wits' End Method Manual:
http://www.freewebs.com/thesimplyamazingpuppywizard/777witsendmanual.htm
> Alex, and Dr.Pepperberg's research has shown a lot,
> there is no point in streching it too far. Besides she may
> get better results following a more leisurely path.
Agreed that, and of curse, DIFFERENT methods <{}: ~ ( >
> Had Alex lived another 10 or 20 years, he might have
> progressed farther.
Quoted from "Is There A Science Of Behavior" by
George Von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., an EXXXPOSE on
the university training being SOLD to unsuspecting
students:
"A WIDE RANGE of PSYCHOSOMATIC or CORTICOVISCERAL
DIS-EASES was surveyed by Wittkower (1965) to demonstrate
the enormous importance of emotional factors in general health."
> M.J.
And the same applies to dogs, M.J. The average lifespan
of dogs on these news groups is LESS THAN ten years
and cancers, seizures, and degenerative DIS-EASES are
so common they're PREDICTABLE and EXXXPECTED.
"Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens!"
-Friedrich Schiller.
"Against stupidity the Gods themselves contend in vain."
INDEEDY.
AND THAT'S HOWE COME THEY GOT ME NHOWE!
In Love And Light,
I Remain Respectfully, Humbly Yours,
Jerry Howe,
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
A-M-A-Z-I-N-G
G-R-A-N-D
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy, Ferret, Goat, Monkey,
SpHOWES And Horsey Wizard <{) ; ~ ) >
HOWE MAY I SERVE YOU <{}; ~ ) >
Sincerely,
Jerry Howe,
Director of Research,
Human And Animal Behavior
Forensic Sciences Research Laboratory,
BIOSOUND Scientific,
Director of Training,
Wits' End Dog Training
1611 24th St
Orlando, FL 32805
Phone: 1-407-425-5092
E-mails:
Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Foren...@HotMail.Com
Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Foren...@HotMail.Com
TheAmazing...@Mail.Com
Peter Hucker
Does this mean:
a) You've just choked on a sunflower seed a parrot dropped in your dinner.
b) Of course she reads newsgroups, didn't you know?
c) He he he that was a funny comment.
d) Aha, you got him there.
--
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At the end of a tiny deserted bar is a huge scouse bloke - 6ft 5in tall and 350lbs. He's having a few beers, when a short, well dressed and obviously gay man walks in and sits beside him.
After 3 or 4 beers, the gay fella finally plucks up the courage to say something to the big Liverpudlian.
Leaning over, he cups his huge ear. "Do you want a blow job?" he whispers.
At this, the massive Merseysider leaps up with fire in his eyes and smacks the man in the face, knocking him off the stool, he proceeds to beat him all the way out of the bar.
Finally he leaves him, badly bruised, in the car park and returns to his seat as if nothing had happened.
Amazed the bartender quickly brings over another beer. "I've never seen you react like that" he says. "Just what did he say to you?"
"I'm not sure" the big scouser replies." Something about a job."
Peter Hucker
What happens to the .25 problem?
--
This message has been brought to you by solar and wind power. Who needs the national grid?
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,-.
/ ( °
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,' ''.
° |! \
_.' O ___ ! \
(_.-^, __..-'' ''''--. )
/,' ° _.' /
° * .-'' |
(..--^. '
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'
Peter Hucker
Why are you telling ME this after writing that spiel of garbage above?
--
This message has been brought to you by solar and wind power. Who needs the national grid?
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com
A mistake is evidence that someone has tried to do something.
Terry von Gease
Which word didn't you understand?
Apparently there was some word or notion that confused you. Perhaps you
might engage the services of some dull-normal elementary school child to
read it to you and explain to you the more difficult passages.
Peter Hucker
>
> "Peter Hucker" <no...@spam.com> wrote in message
> news:op.tyqtsiox4buhsv@fx62...
>> On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 01:23:19 +0100, Terry von Gease <t...@wildblue.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Peter Hucker" <no...@spam.com> wrote in message
>>> news:op.typjuscr4buhsv@fx62...
>>>> On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 14:58:05 +0100, Terry von Gease <t...@wildblue.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "M.J." <M.J.@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:FGGGi.3104$Sd4....@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a fucking bird, you insufferable moron. A bundle of feathers and
>>>>> adrenaline and little else, certainly no cognitive tackle of the
>>>>> magnitude
>>>>> that you presume. Your multi-post rant is a sure contender for the most
>>>>> contrived anthropomorphic bullshit ever produced by a single being on a
>>>>> single topic.
>>>>
>>>> Fuck off.
>>>
>>>
>>> It always amusing to attempt to correspond with a specimen as articulate
>>> as
>>> you give every appearance of being.
>>>
>>> Write when you learn how...
>>
>> Why are you telling ME this after writing that spiel of garbage above?
>
> Which word didn't you understand?
>
> Apparently there was some word or notion that confused you. Perhaps you
> might engage the services of some dull-normal elementary school child to
> read it to you and explain to you the more difficult passages.
I understood all of it, and recognised it all as garbage.
--
This message has been brought to you by solar and wind power. Who needs the national grid?
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com
__________
.'' _______ ''.
.' .'' / ,'. '.
.' .' ) / / '. '.
| .' )( / / '. |
| | ( _____/ /____ | |
( ( #____/ /__)__) ) )
| | / / | |
| '. / / .' |
'. '. / / .' .'
'. '' /_______..' .'
'..__________..'
Grizzly
wrong with it!" "No,no, 'E's uh, 'E's restin'" (Kudos to Monty Python)
Steve
On Sep 16, 7:48 am,
"Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laborat...@HotMail.Com"
<Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laborat...@HotMail.Com>
wrote:
> HOWEDY M.J.,
>
> "M.J." <M...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:2aCGi.
>
> 3046$Sd4....@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
>
> > <Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laborat...@HotMail.Com>
> > wrote in messagenews:1189753631....@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laborat...@HotMail.Com
>
> Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laborat...@HotMail.Com
>
> TheAmazingPuppyWiz...@Mail.Com
>
> http://www.freewebs.com/thesimplyamazingpuppywizard/
You don't have a clue do you?
Pepperberg did not use the clicker method to teach Alex. She used the
model rival method wich comes close to how
parrots learn in the wild from their peers.
Have you even read her book "the Alex Studies"?
Steve n Misty
Steve
> <j...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>
> news:agkne3turom9io071...@4ax.com...
>
> Blah, blah, blah.
>
> I 've cut out the nonsense from your post, but will reply to your questions
> about preconceived ideas and personal views. Sure I express my personal
> views but these have extensive backing in real empirical data i.e.
> experiences
> I have gathered over a perion of nearly 10 years of being an TAG owner.
>
> My 10 year old TAG (Timneh African Grey) Mbeki whom I have raised
> and handfed since 6 weeks old is a cute playful and intelligent little
> fellow.
> Compared to Alex Mbeki is probalby a great moron as his vocabulary is
> only around 6-7 words. I have subjected Mbeki to learning lessons many
> times and have always noticed that the bird tires immensely after about
> 15-20 minutes of mental exercersise -becomes cranky, and wants to leave,
> go back to the cage, playtop, or whatever.
>
> Sure, slowly and over time he could be made to endure longer and longer
> sessions until he probably would be able to withstand a gruelling 8-12 hour
> working/learning day, but I know this would not be without a risk of
> negative
> long term consequenses.
>
> Mbeki is my pet, and not some ALEX (Avian Learning EXperiment)
> therefore I don't "torment" him past the 10-15 minute that he playfully
> offers me.
>
> M.J.
>
You are clearly ignorant of the methods that Dr Pepperberg used with
Alex as well as the life and relationships he had
with the other lab helpers and fellow parrots.
Alex's sessions were typically half hour or less. He was quite capable
of ending sessions when he had had enough.
Where on earth do you get the idea that Alex had an 8 or 12 hour
working day?
It would be safe to say that no pet parrot had a better life than Alex
including yours.
Now as you still have 20 years or so to go before Mbeki reaches Alex's
age perhaps you can do us all a favor
and repost in 20 years to let us know that he is still alive.
(Of course I hope he is)
Steve n Misty
Ocean of Nuance
"Steve" <sste...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1190040814.4...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Plus aren't we all forgetting that there is a possibility the bird was an
idiot savant of the parrot world and therefore whatever work he had may have
PROLONGED his life? Since folks are throwing around evidence-free
assertions, I just thought I'd toss one in. ; )
sharon
--
"Lights will guide you home
And ignite your bones
And I will try to fix you"
-- C. Martin
Grizzly
> "
> | >
> | > M.J.
> | >
> |
> | You are clearly ignorant of the methods that Dr Pepperberg used with
> | Alex as well as the life and relationships he had
> | with the other lab helpers and fellow parrots.
> | Alex's sessions were typically half hour or less. He was quite capable
> | of ending sessions when he had had enough.
> | Where on earth do you get the idea that Alex had an 8 or 12 hour
> | working day?
> | It would be safe to say that no pet parrot had a better life than Alex
> | including yours.
> | Now as you still have 20 years or so to go before Mbeki reaches Alex's
> | age perhaps you can do us all a favor
> | and repost in 20 years to let us know that he is still alive.
> | (Of course I hope he is)
>
> Plus aren't we all forgetting that there is a possibility the bird was an
> idiot savant of the parrot world and therefore whatever work he had may have
> PROLONGED his life? Since folks are throwing around evidence-free
> assertions, I just thought I'd toss one in. ; )
>
> sharon
>
whole host of things such as stress factors, disease and poor diet can
take them out at an early age. Birds are great at hiding illness as a
sick looking bird= a dead bird in the wild. By the time a bird looks
ill, it is often too late to save its life. Birds fed an extruded diet
and fruits and veggies that also tend to get regular veterinary exams
tend to live longer than those that are fed an all seed diet. Likewise
birds that are kept solitary without interaction will often die early or
develop stereotypical behavior such as self mutilation and
plucking..Alex was afforded the best of care, a great diet and regular
veterinary exams, as well as an interesting interactive environment to
live in. Many cage birds don't live as long as Alex did, so to say that
he died from stress and overwork may be a fallacy. It may have just been
his time to go..
M.J.
news:1190040814.4...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> Where on earth do you get the idea that Alex had an 8 or 12 hour
> working day?
I've cut out the nonsense. If you were to read the thread from its
beginning
and its associated links, not just jump in at will, on bout of emotion, you
would have read that Dr.Pepperberg herself states Alex had 8-12 hour
working days (his entire life). No one here is so misguided to even suspect
these could be marathon 8-12 hour sessions, of course they were batches,
and multiple bursts of shorter intervals of mental exercise.
> Now as you still have 20 years or so to go before Mbeki reaches Alex's
> age perhaps you can do us all a favor and repost in 20 years to let us
> know that he is still alive.
Perhaps you should do us all a favour and re-think your participation in
this thread. You're contribution seems shallow (example: irrelevancy of
Mbeki's age as an argument), and frankly you are neither entertaining nor
educational, nor posing any relevant questions.
> (Of course I hope he is)
Of course, that's why the confirmation.
M.J.
M.J.
news:7jyHi.38576$G23....@newsreading01.news.tds.net...
> Alex was afforded the best of care, a great diet and regular veterinary
> exams, as well as an interesting interactive environment to live in. Many
> cage birds don't live as long as Alex did, so to say that he died from
> stress and overwork may be a fallacy. It may have just been his time to
> go..
Well, you certainly make a point, and if there was a cause of
death identified there would be no speculation. Neither people,
nor birds die prematurely without a reason. Perhaps Alexes
biological age was accelerated through years of unnaturaly
elevated brain metabolism that he simply died of old age at 31?
Who knows? It's a possibility actually my main contention.
M.J.
M.J.
> It would be safe to say that no pet parrot had a better life than Alex
> including yours.
You just assume that mental effort is as easy and
natural to a parrots brain as it is to a human brain.
8-12 hours a day of hard mental exercise for an average
human could be associated with taking an extremely heavy
course load at a most demanding university. I am certain
the graduate researchers, students, who were training
ALEX, at Brandeis Univ., were themselves on much much
less demanding academic schedules.
Well, for a parrot's brain who knows what 8-12 hours
of mental work is equivalent to.
I wish they do some advanced studies on Alexes
brain cells, they just may show extreme premature
aging.
M.J.
Ocean of Nuance
And if you are correct, who is to say whether that shorter life is more
fulfilling, more examined, more intellectually stimulating, than a longer,
less fulfilling, less examined, more religious life? Sounds like a
reasonable trade-off to me.
M.J.
From a moral standpoint this a very tough question as we
humans are just not qualified to decide such matters for a
different species, or even person from our species.
Generally speaking, a life in the wild with the ability to procreate
is considered "perfect" with all its associated risks, as this is
what creatures are adapted to over millions of years of evolution.
Who said a life of a human eunuch isn't tremendously fullfiling,
it is much less stressful, lower testosterone levels translate into
less tension, adversarial competition, no worry associated
with raising and providing for offspring etc. Does it mean
getting castrated is the way to go for a male? :))))
I personally don't think so.
M.J.
M.J.
What I meant to say, more pricesely, is that it is an
individual decision.
M.J.
Grizzly
>
>> Of course the hypothesis that he was mentally worked to death
>> is just that a hypothesis, but since no cause of death has been
>> identified it is as good as anything else, perhaps even most plausible.
>> After all, Alex was part of an ongoing mental experiment to
>> test the limits of avian intelligence. The experiment ended
>> abruptly with an unexplained, premature death of the bird.
>>
>> Please do not forget, this is exactly what happened from
>> a scientific perspective. The African Grey subject among
>> many other things learned to count to six, or seven.
>
>
> I'll repeat once more!
>
>
> Have him worked to death by your research?
> 8-12 hours a day, every day, of gruelling mental exercise, just to
> find out where the limits of avian intelligence exist! No wonder
> Alex died so young.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
M.J. : Did you observe how long the bird was worked with and personally
see him pushed hard for 6 to 8 hours a day or are you just some AR nut
with an ax to grind..It seems to me that you come off like some Rabid
PETA nut, and you appear to be more of a bird brain than ALEX ever was.
Perhaps you should take note that the group you are posting to is
rec.equestrian.. this should tell you that it is a horsemans' newsgroup,
and for the most part birds are inconsequential here as far as most
conversations go..It seems to me you need a hobby outside of your AR
ranting..perhaps knitting, or crocheting would take care of some of your
angst..The bird is dead..yada yada yada...get a life hey!
Geopelia
don't cooperate.
We try to teach them to talk, and they just sit there ignoring us. Then they
suddenly say something we haven't even tried to teach them, but which they
have heard. They also put words together and make a sensible phrase out of
them.
And a mistreated parrot will bite!
M.J.
>Perhaps you should take note that the group you are posting to is
>rec.equestrian.. this should tell you that it is a horsemans' newsgroup,
>and for the most part birds are inconsequential here as far as most
>conversations go
The reason I have included rec.equestrian was because
of Barbarro, another animal death that attracted much
public attention.
>The bird is dead..yada yada yada...get a life hey!
Personally, I hope Brandeis Univ. preserves Alexes
DNA to have him cloned one day.
M.J.
M.J.
"max" <beta...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:13emjp3...@corp.supernews.com...
> In article <zDHGi.26846$eY....@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net>,
> "M.J." <M.J.@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Is this what you did to the poor creature, Ms Irene Pepperberg?
>>
>> Have him worked to death by your research?
>> 8-12 hours a day, every day, of gruelling mental exercise, just to
>> find out where the limits of avian intelligence exist! No wonder
>> Alex died so young.
>
>
> Typically, when an animal, human or otherwise, is under chronic mental
> measurable behavior and condition. A trivial and incomplete list might
> include significant weight change, diet selection change, blood chemistry
> changes, sleep disorders, hair (or feather) pulling, self mutilation,
> violence, copraphagy etc.
>
> Given that Alex was, in fact, one of -- quite possibly _the_ -- most
> studied
> parrot in all of history, one might reasonably expect to have seen
> evidence
> of some sort of stress disorders.
>
> Where is your evidence of such stress? I've seen the same films as
> everyone
> else of Alex (some presented by Dr. Pepperberg herself, in fact) and i've
> never seen as much as the hint of a scintilla of evidence of any
> stress-related pathology, mental or physical, in the bird.
>
> So what is your secret evidence?
>
>
> Grueling mental exercise, my aunt fannie.
Let's not forget that Alex was a plucker!!
Itself this doesn't prove much but it points to him being potentially
very stressed. Reasons for plucking are not well understood, some
attribute this behaviour to stress, sexual frustration, others to skin
problems, etc.
M.J.
M.J.
> On Sep 20, 11:14 am, "M.J." <M...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Let's not forget that Alex was a plucker!!
>>
>> Itself this doesn't prove much but it points to him being potentially
>> very stressed. Reasons for plucking are not well understood, some
>> attribute this behaviour to stress, sexual frustration, others to skin
>> problems, etc.
>>
>> M.J.
>
> Alex started plucking when Dr Pepperberg had to leave him for extended
> periods on business.
> He had stopped plucking years ago.
I don't know, have read that a few years ago he
was still plucking.
> In all he was a well loved and well cared for parrot.
> One thing to bare in mind is that it is very hard to tell the age of a
> Grey parrot once it has matured.
> I know Dr Pepperberg has said he was a one year when she bought him at
> random from a pet shop
> but if in fact he had been wild caught there would be no easy way to
> tell his true age.
> You can't just saw them in half and count the rings.
Up to around 2 years of age it's possible for a somewhat experienced
person to distinguish if the bird is young. He might have been older,
than 1 yr when bought, but probably not by much.
It is not out of the question though that he might have been bought
an older bird (?). Irene was no expert then I suppose.
Wildcaught? I don't think so, very unlikely, as these are not
easy to tame, even if young. But on the other hand they are
supposedly smarter than handfed ones. Alex seemed very smart,
and his companions Griffin, and the other, I forget his/her name,
are not nearly as talented as Alex was. Intriguing question.
M.J.
>
> Steve n Misty
>
xpen...@earthlink.net
You've got to be experienced to se a change in eye color?
> He might have been older,
>than 1 yr when bought, but probably not by much.
>
>It is not out of the question though that he might have been bought
>an older bird (?). Irene was no expert then I suppose.
>
>Wildcaught? I don't think so, very unlikely, as these are not
>easy to tame, even if young.
and you know this how?
> But on the other hand they are
>supposedly smarter than handfed ones. Alex seemed very smart,
> and his companions Griffin, and the other, I forget his/her name,
>are not nearly as talented as Alex was. Intriguing question.
>
BTW it has been speculated t Alex might have succumbed to
Aspergillosis, a fungal infection of the lungs that he had battled in
the past.
>M.J.
>
>
>
>>
>> Steve n Misty
>>
>
DelusionalDimen...@i-love-dogs.com
"Steve" <sste...@aol.com> wrote in message news:
1190383100....@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 20, 11:14 am, "M.J." <M...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> "max" <betat...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:13emjp3...@corp.supernews.com...
>> > In article <zDHGi.26846$eY.6...@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net>,
>> > "M.J." <M...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> >> I'll repeat once more!
>
>> >> Is this what you did to the poor creature, Ms Irene Pepperberg?
INDEEDY! The behavioral researchers should be PRHOWED
of their EXXXCELLENT work, wouldn't you agree <{}: ~ ( >
>> >> Have him worked to death by your research?
BET YOUR LIFE ON IT. It happens ALL the time with dogs.
>> >> 8-12 hours a day, every day, of gruelling mental exercise, just to
>> >> find out where the limits of avian intelligence exist! No wonder
>> >> Alex died so young.
INDEEDY <{}: ~ ( >
HOWEver, it's much more than WORK. It's the KINDS of "work"
he was forced to do and the kinds of anXXXIHOWESNESS relief
mechanisims he was ABLE to indulge in that CAUSE STRESS
INDUCED AUTO-IMMUNE DIS-EASE aka The Puppy Wizard's
Syndrome <{}: ~ ( >
Force / bribe / avoidance / clicker raining represents a major
health crisis for humans and critters; those are the primary
causes of HYPERACTIVITY, AGGRESSION and "unprovoked"
ATTACKS on humans, second ONLY to surgical sexual
mutilations which eviscrates their MATERNAL / PATERNAL
INSTINCTS to NOT ATTACK other innocent defenseless dumb
critters or HARM CHILDREN.
Almost everything we are taught about animal behavior is
incorrect from the critter's point of view as THEY understand
Natural Law.
Our typical forced control / bribe / avoidance / punishment
approaches to animal AND child behavior violates Natural
Law and challenges critter's AND children's survival instincts
and results in animosity, aggression, shyness, DIS-EASE and
"unwarranted" attacks on family members, and the deaths of
millions of critters and the criminalization and incarceration
of HOWER youths <{}: ~ ( >
A DOG Is A DOG;
As A KAT Is A KAT;
As A BIRDY Is A BIRDY;
As A HORSE Is A HORSE;
As A GOAT Is A GOAT;
As A Ferett Is A Ferett;
As A Monkey Is A Monkey;
As A CHILD IS A CHILD;
As A SP-HOWES Is a SP-HOWES;
As A Mass Murderer Is A Mass Murderer.
ALL Critters Only Respond In
PREDICTABLE INNATE NORMAL NATURAL
INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE Ways;
To Situations And Circumstances Of Their Environment
Which We Create For Them.
You GET The Critter You TRAINED
In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
FAILURE MEANS DEATH.
SAME SAME SAME SAME,
For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.
>> > What you are describing is a death due to
>> > prolonged mental stress. fine.
NO. IT AIN'T FINE. It's EZily PREVENTABLE
simply by NOT DOIN what the EXXXPERT
RESEARCHERS DO to FORCE CON-TROLL
of innocent defenseless dumb critters <{}: ~ ( >
>> > Typically, when an animal, human or otherwise, is
>> > under chronic mental stress, we observe manifestations
>> > selected from several dimensions of measurable behavior
>> > and condition. A trivial and incomplete list might include
>> > significant weight change, diet selection change, blood
>> > chemistry changes, sleep disorders, hair (or feather) pulling,
>> > self mutilation, violence, ccopraphagy etc.
That's correct and it's only the "tip of the iceberg" AS
DEAMONSTRATED by the myriad of DEATHLY
ILL an DEAD dogs an kats on The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Simply Amazing PuppyWizard's Forums <{}: ~ ( >
Of curse, the veterinary behaviorists AIN'T GONNA TELL
you abHOWET IT on accHOWENTA they PROFIT from
STRESS INDUCED AUTO-IMMUNE DIS-EASES. The
#1 surgery following unwarranted sexual mutilations is
CRUCIATE LIGAMENT REPAIR, a 100% PREVENTABLE
STRESS INDUCED AUTO-IMMUNE DIS-EASE.
Just ask ANY vet.
>> > Given that Alex was, in fact, one of -- quite possibly _the_ -
>> > - most studied parrot in all of history, one might reasonably
>> > expect to have seen evidence of some sort of stress disorders.
O.K. Just DENY the FACTS <{}: ~ ) >
>> > Where is your evidence of such stress? I've seen the same
>> > films as everyone else of Alex (some presented by Dr.
>> > Pepperberg herself, in fact) and i've never seen as much as
>> > the hint of a scintilla of evidence of any stress-related pathology,
>> > mental or physical, in the bird.
Of curse, you'd have to KNOW what you're talkin
abHOWET to KNOW what to look for <{}: ~ ( >
>> > So what is your secret evidence?
>
>> > Grueling mental exercise, my aunt fannie.
Your aunti ain't got NUTHIN to do with this <{}: ~ ( >
>> Let's not forget that Alex was a plucker!!
Plucking is a SYMPTOM of anXXXIHOWESNESS <{}: ~ ( >
"Is There A Science Of Behavior?"
By George Von Hilsheimer, Ph.D.
THE OPERANT FALLACY
Programs utilizing the "contingencies of
reinforcement model" proposed by Skinner
(1963) ar no more well established in
research than the various dynamic therapists.
Research in four areas : 1) direct evaluation of
programmed systems for elarning; 2) reinforcement;
3) cognitive dissonance; and 4) motivation, MOST
SURELY DEMOLISH eth claims of operant programers.
The 190 studies annotated by Schramm (1964)
when inspected display NO SIGNIFICANT
DIFFERENCES in SUCCESS among approaches
and modifications.
Programmed instruction is no worse than
conventional instruction, and takes less
time, but time reductions in conventional
instruction has frequently been shown
possible without detrimental effects.
If you draw your controls cagily you can
always show the superiority of your PET
technique.
Moore and Smit (1964) compared variations on
programmed materials, machines, texts, written
responses, merely reading, free response, multiple
choice, and iving or not giving the students results.
There were NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCES despite
Skinner's insistence on the importance of the
CONTINGENCY of REINFORCEMENT.
Carpenter and Greenhill (1963) could find NO
DIFFERENCE in RESULTS even after eliminating
the self-pacing feature by presenting the
materials by TV or Video.
Krumboltz and Kiesler (1965) reported that a
two month follow up test showed NO DIFFERENCE
between students given a variety of reinforcement
schedules. Mayo and Longo (1966) report that
naval and marine trainees saved 30% of time in
learning electronics fundamentals through a
programed course witrh superior scores on one
measure but not on another, and with no follow-
up reported.
The same authors reported a reductionj from
26 HOWERS to 19 HOWERS in instruction time
through the use of program with NO DIFFERENCE
in test scores, except that as longer blocks
of materiallearned through programmed
means were tesed the scores DECREASED.
When the control instruction is manipulated an
entirely DIFFERENT picture emerges Jacobs
and Kulkarni (1966) assignedstudents in three
different schools to classes with standard
programmed material giving immediate knowledge
of results to classes without results and to classes
with the order of sections of the program inverted.
In two schools the groups without knowledge of
results and the groups with inverted material
SCORED HIGHER.
In one school there was NO DIFFERENCE.
So much for THEORY.
Reid and Taylor (1965) presented a linear
program on paper-making to 60 paid undergrads
with a 12 week follow up test. The group which
merely read learned the same material in 154
minutes to 243 minutes for the group given
responses-a REVERSAL of the usual BIASED
RESULTS based on POOR CON-TROLLS.
There were no differences on post tests.
Spagnoli (1965) reports on a study exposing
the control and programed group to the same
material in a concentrated effort over a
limited period of time.
There were NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCES.
Sassenrath and Garverick (1965) gave 4 matched
groups of 120 students four procedures: 1) looking
up the wrong answers, 2) having questions discussed
by the instructors, 3) checking answers from correct
ones on the board, and 4) no feedback. The discussion
method proved best.
<snip>
Finally, in studying means of training men
to perform a 72 action prcedure on Nike-
Hercules equipment, Cox and Boren (1965)
demonstrated that the time required to learn
the procedure to critterion was NO DIFFERENT
when the actions were organized into seven
operant spans and taught in reverse order,
in natural order, or without grouping into
operant spans at all.
IT IS CLEAR that as comparisons became more
sophisticated programed instruction and other
operant teaching techniquesreveal tehemselves
as simply another prestigiHOWES FAD--somewhat
better than conventional instruction in saving
time, but certainly not providing a better or
better organized or more independently useful
GRASP of KNOWLEDGE.
The IMBECILITY of some ofthe claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et
al (1966) report a standard contingent reward/
punishment procedure developing imitative speech
in two severly disturbed non verbal schizophrenic
boys.
After twenty-six days the boys are reported to have
been learning new words with alacrity. HOWEver,
when REWARDS were moved to a delayed contingency
the behavior and learning immediately deteriorated.
Despite this, and despite the fact that there
was no evidence of cognitive association with
the words, the authors leap to the conclusion
that the fact that the boys improved in the
acquisition of Norwegian words WITHOUT
REWARDS while still being given English
words WITH REWARDS suggest hat the
children may be able to acquire new behaviors
on their own.
The need for this study escapes one,
particularly in view of the very well
established fact that schizophrenics
condition quite readily (Mednick, 1958)
One can see the "SCIENTIFIC" PRECISION by
which the authors drop contingent reinforcements
thus PROVING that the parrot behavior was
indeed caused by the schedule and NOT by some
other mystical force.
The use of Norwegian to demonstrate learning
that could not even remotely be related to
previous history is a grotesquery too bizarre
to be credited. Who could possibly doubt that
this useless and probably damaging trained seal
routine depended on the psychologist's antics?
What on earth led them to believe that
a schizophrenic needs even more other-
focused responsiveness?
Lovaas et al (1965) reported three programs
carried out on five year old autistic twins
conditioining them to "social behavior" and
to eliminate pathologial behaviors such as
self-stimulation and tantrums.
Affectionate and other social behaviors toward
adults increaseed after adults had been associated
with shock reduction. The routine for this treatment
brings immediate relief to mind Sawrey and Wesz
(1956) routine for producing ulcers in monkeys.
I suppose it is USELESS to speculate on the source
of SO CALLED THERAPISTS willingness to experiment
on human beings with procedures for which there is
sound experimentally established WARNINGS. If the
"double blind" theory of the origin of schizophrenia
(Bateson, 1956) is at all valid, HOWE DEVASTATING
the experience must ULTIMATELY BE.
Do Lovaas et al REALLY BELIEVE the schizophrenic
has no cognitive processes and DOES NOT KNOW WHO
IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SHOCK?
Greger (1965) criticized this study on the basis
that trainsfer CANNOT be generalized. That issue
can be answered by experience, and, of curse, the
"social" behavior of these children deteriorates
as soon as the psychologists LOOSE INTEREST.
The IMPORTANT ISSUE for a SCIENCE OF BEHAVIOR
is why not attempt those things which are KNOWN
to WORK at least in some cases if only for control
puporses.
Kanner (1954) reports that 13 classically
autistic children improved enough to go to
school without "anything that is regarded
as good psychotherapy or as psychotherapy
at all..."
Autistic children have been known to become
permenantely social by deinstitutionalization,
BY REMOVAL from the parents, BY RADICAL
CHANGES in other environments, and by MASSIVE
DOSAGE of TOUCHING, HOLDING, FONDLING
LOVE DESPITE THE REJECTION OF THE CHILD.
My case, Larry, (vonHilsheimer, 1965b),
demonstrates a recovery by using the
mother as an autistic boy's teacher in
an open millieu.
It is curiHOWES that the operant technicians provide
as few, and as UNIMAGINITAVE controls for thier
"research" as the Freudians.
>> Itself this doesn't prove much
Plucking is NEUROTIC SELF MUTILATION <{}: ~ ( >
>> but it points to him being potentially very stressed.
No, it's PROOF POSITIVE that he WAS STRESSED.
OtherWIZE he WOULDN'T SELF MUTILATE <{}: ~ ( >
>> Reasons for plucking are not well understood,
Sez who? The BEHAVIORAL RESEARCHERS who CAUSED IT?
>> some attribute this behaviour to stress,
Naaaah?
>> sexual frustration,
SEX AIN'T got NUTHIN to do with it. Ask your aunti.
She ain't had sex since your grandpa took her cherry when
she was ten years old <{}: ~ ( >
>> others to skin problems, etc.
And HOWE COME would a NORMAL critter have
SKIN SENSITIVITIES? Ask your aunti <{}: ~ ( >
>> M.J.
> Alex started plucking when Dr Pepperberg had
> to leave him for extended periods on business.
Oh, so then steevie, as a backyard puppy miller you're
well aware that separation anXXXIHOWESNESS got
NUTHIN to do with the ABSENCE of the owners it's
got to do with the absence of the CON-TROLLER <{}: ~ ( >
> He had stopped plucking years ago.
Stress induced auto immune DIS-EASES can be "difficult
to diagnose" on accHOWENTA they tend to manifest different
SYMPTOMS like the weather <{}: ~ ( >
> In all he was a well loved and well cared for parrot.
THAT AIN'T THE POINT. So was your aunti.
That was the CAUSE <{}: ~ ( >
> One thing to bare in mind is that it is very hard to
> tell the age of a Grey parrot once it has matured.
Oh. O.K. So Alex lived to be 99 <{}'; ~ ) >
> I know Dr Pepperberg has said he was a one year when
> she bought him at random from a pet shop but if in fact
> he had been wild caught there would be no easy way to
> tell his true age.
As a BEHAVIORIST she'd KNOW by the birdie's BEHAVIOR
if he was wild caught or captive raised <{}: ~ ( >
> You can't just saw them in half and count the rings.
Well as a RESEARCHER you could TRY it <{}: ~ ( >
> Steve n Misty
BWEEEAAAHAHAAAA!!!
Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At
UofOH Oxford, That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive
Dogs Can Easily And Readily Be Done Using TLC.
Tender Loving Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific
Management Of Doggys. <{) ; ~ ) >
"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING
THEORY model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT.
Of curse, Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated
HOWE we escape the phenomenon that an expected
reward not received is experienced as a punishment
and can produce extensive and persistent aggression
(Azrin et al, 1966)."
"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) report a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are reported to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS
were moved to a delayed contingency the behavior and
learning immediately deteriorated."
"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes --
excitation, inhibition and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov
"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.
"All animals learn best through play." -- Konrad Lorenz
"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966). Some
clinics have reported ELIMINATION ofthe need for
child THERAPY through changing the clinical emphasis
from clinical to parental HANDLING of the child
(Szrynski 1965).
A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases
SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents temporarily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."
A. S. Neill, The Famous Founder of The Summerhill
School, Used To Cure Delinquent Children Way Back
In The 1950's By Paying Them For Every Time They
Wet The Bed Or Broke A Pane Of Glass And Their
Behaviour Would Stop, - As If By MAGICK!
The Embry Study:
"While some may find it strange that reprimands
might increase the chances of a child going into
the street, the literature on the experimental analysis
of behavior is replete with examples of how "attention
to inappropriate behavior" increases the chances of
more inappropriate behavior.
Thus, suggestions to parents that they talk to or reason
with their children about dashing into the street will
likely to have the opposite impact.
Reprimands do not punish unsafe behavior; they reward it."
Source:
"Reducing the Risk of Pedestrian Accidents to
Preschoolers by Parent Training and Symbolic
Modeling for Children: An Experimental Analysis
in the Natural Environment. Research Report
Number 2 of the Safe-Playing Project."
--------------------
Noted trainer and author LeeCharlesKelley:
>"LeeCharlesKelley" kelleymet...@aol.com wrote:
>> Puppy classes are, generally speaking, detrimental to the
>> learning process for both the puppy and the owner.
Leah:
> I'm speechless.
> And with this statement, any credibility you still had
> with me has been flushed down the toilet.
Okay, but if you're not still speechless, then explain why
more than 60% of Americans who take their dogs to a puppy
class report that the dog didn't learn anything and that
the experience was basically a waste of time and money?
LeeCharlesKelley
-------------------
From: "LeeCharlesKelley" <kelleymet...@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 21:53:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Critical Socialization
> "LeeCharlesKelley" kelleymet...@aol.com wrote:
> Okay, but if you're not still speechless, then explain why
> more than 60% of Americans who take their dogs to a puppy
> class report that the dog didn't learn anything and that
> the experience was basically a waste of time and money?
Leah:
> That one's easy. Because they didn't PRACTICE.
<snip>
> if they don't continue to use what they learned after
> class, of course the dogs are going to regress.
"Of course?" You have a pretty low opinion of a puppy's
ability to learn and remember, even though they do it all
the time with no repetitions and no regression.
Or just maybe they *didn't* regress. Maybe they didn't really
learn anything in class because the kind of training you use is
DETRIMENTAL TO THE LEARNING PROCESS, as I stated earlier.
If it were real learning then the dogs
wouldn't, "of course" regress, would they?
Maybe you remember the example I gave of a dog at the
dog run who instantly learned a new behavior WHILE
PLAYING, and never forgot it.
Or the example I gave about my dog learning the command,
"Up the stairs!", once, just once, and has never regressed
or forgotten the lesson.
He'll still do it every single time, eleven years after he
learned it. Hang on, I'm going to take him out in the hall
right now, where his expecation is to go DOWN the stairs,
not up, and I'm going to tell him, "Up the stairs!" to see
if he really does still remember it . . .
Yep, he went right up the stairs when I told him to,
so nope, he hasn't regressed. I wonder why that is.
But then, I forgot: you believe that learning can't take
place without repetition, so "of course" the puppy will
regress if the owner doesn't keep up with the lessons.
That's only natural, right? Wrong.
Maybe it's time to give credence to the idea that there's
another model of learning -- which comes naturally to all
animals -- and which doesn't require repetition or the
expectation that the learning will regress.
Just a thought . . .
From: "LeeCharlesKelley" <kelleymet...@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 00:57:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Critical
>"LeeCharlesKelley" kelleymet...@aol.com wrote:
> Yep, he went right up the stairs when I told him to, so nope,
> he hasn't regressed. I wonder why that is.
Leah
:> Duh. Because you USE the command regularly?
Who sez? I've gone years without using it at all.
And you're forgetting the fact that a day or two after I
taught him the command (inside the apartment building
where we lived at the time), I was walking Fred along a
street on the way to the park. I stopped in front of a
brownstone, a building we'd never been (and still haven't).
I gave him the command and he immediately obeyed it. The second
time in his life he heard it, he obeyed it, even though there was no
possible reason for him to do so, other than the fact that I told him
to.
Why?
I also taught him once, just once, not to cross a curb
without me. He hasn't forgotten that one either.
Why?
Leah:
> If the owner knows the method to stop the puppy from
> pulling on the leash, yet lets the puppy pull him all
> over the place, the puppy will not stop pulling on the
> leash.
> This is a no-brainer.
No, *this* is: If the puppy had actually been taught not
to pull on the leash, he would stop pulling on the leash.
I'm sure everyone here, if they thought about it, could
come up with their own examples (like the one I gave about
the dog learning a new behavior WHILE PLAYING in the dog
run) of dogs they've observed learning a new behavior once,
and never forgetting it.
It's the most natural form of learning there is.
But it requires that the dog be in a high-level emotional
state when the learning takes place, which is something
that *can't* be accomplished in a puppy class.
Puppy clases are, generally speaking, detrimental
to the learning process.
================
LeeCharlesKelley Wrote:
From what I've read of Jerry's method it incorporates
a completely new model of learning, which is based
(in simplest terms) on the idea that all behavior is
the result of finding a way to relieve emotional tension.
This is true not just for dogs but all animals.
You don't believe in the validity of this particular model
of learning? You don't think it makes sense?
Fine, I guess.
But it makes total sense to me.
And it made sense to Pavlov, too,
though not many people know this.
"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement."
IOW, emotions, not outside rewards, are
what reinforces any behavior.
Finn once saw a small mouse come out of a hole
atthe base of a tree. Needless to say his prey
instinct kicked in BIG TIME and he chased it
back into the hole. This was 7 years before
he died. Up until the very last time he walked
through that section of the park (an hour before
he went) he checked the base of that tree.
He saw that mouse exactly *once*....he never
saw it again. Don't we all have stories like
that?
Especially those of us with dogs whose prey
drives are pretty intense?
And there are lots of examples that may not
even require the prey drive to be active,
just a strong desire to do something: a dog
who wants to escape from the back yard will
learn how to do it once and never forget it,
a dog who wants to jump on the couch or the
bed doesn't need any repetitions to "reinforce"
or re-learn the behavior.
If something is important to a dog, he'll
learn how to do it. Once he learns it, he
learns it. The trick to getting him to
"unlearn" it, is to give him a more
emotionally satisfying replacement behavior.
With Oscar and the cat, the more satisfying
behavior was relating to me instead of the cat.
(He's a Lab, with a strong need for social
connections, so that was pretty easy.)
I've been experimenting recently with Jerry
Howe's method of using a sound distraction,
then praising the dog, without any physical
contact, for 15 seconds.
My initial reaction to his technique was that
it was silly to keep praising the dog that long.
I mean, Jerry's a nut, right?
But in every case except one, when I've followed
the exercise exactly, I've seen a definite physiological
change take place in the dog -- yawning or stretching
have been the usual indicators -- and after only a few
repetitions, the dog often relaxes, curls up, and goes
to sleep!
I've tried this on barking, counter-surfing,
separation anxiety, even two dogs who live
together and fight constantly. I was pretty
amazed when I saw this little Boston give up
her aggression and start to yawn!
It's too early for me to be convinced that it
will work every single time with every single
dog, or that it will even have a lasting effect
on these dogs, but so far I think that it's
effective at reducing emotional tension, which,
as you know, I believe that all behavior comes
from the dog trying to find a way to reduce
emotional tension. If you give the dog a
replacement behavior that successfully reduces
emotional tension, the first behavior will no
longer be necessary and the dog will stop doing it.
------------------
From: "LeeCharlesKelley" <kelleymet...@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 08:14:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Counter Cruising must stop
Leah:>I did try to get my head around your theories, but
I can't buy them. praise *reinforces* the dog's behavior<
I'll give you an easier example: say you're walking through
the park with your dog. She starts walking a little ahead
of you but not isn't intensely focused on something in the
environment, she's just a little restless to move ahead.
You praise her entususiastically and she turns and comes
back to your side. If praise were only a reinforcer, praising
her for moving ahead of you would have made her feel that
*that* behavior was good and reinforced it, right?
She would have been more likely to
stay in front of you than come back.
So in this example how and why did praise have the
opposite effect and *change* the behavior rather
than reinforce it?
From: "LeeCharlesKelley" <kelleymet...@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 18:46:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Counter Cruising must stop
John:>I dunno. In both of these situations, praise
stopped the undesirable behavior. I would guess that
the praise meant more to your dog at that point than
the object he was after.
That's it pretty much in a nutshell. The dog was looking
for a way to relieve mild emotional tension. The behavior
was given up voluntarily when the dog found another source
of emotional satisfaction, being praised. Praise works,
as both a reward and a "correction", because it
changes the dog's emotional state. Behavior is caused by
emotion. When you change a dog's emotional state, you
automatically change his behavior.
John: > What happens if that balance is disturbed. What
happens if the object your dog is going after means more
to them than your praise,
Then praise wouldn't have any effect on the behavior. In
order to use praise in this way you have to be able to "read"
the dog's emotions.
Although, I take that back. That's not necessarily true.
I once got an aggressive dog at the dog run to almost give
up her aggression by praising her every time she growled at
a dog who came too close. I wasn't doing it on purpose.
I was just trying to calm her nerves, but I noticed that
when I began praising her, her psychic buffer zone started
about fifteen feet away from where we were sitting.
But after praising her for ten minutes or so, she'd let a
dog get within five feet or less before the growls started
escaping from her throat. She even did the thing with her
nose, where she'd start to try and sniff the dog from her
perch on the park bench before the growl in her throat got
loose.
I thought she was very sweet underneath her swagger
and felt that with enough encouragement she might be
able to get off her ass and actually go play with some
of the other dogs, but her owner thought I was
"encouraging" her aggression and gave us both a good
scolding.
She was quite right to scold me. I hadn't been asked to
change her dog's behavior. But the dog hadn't been doing
a damn thing when the owner came over, grabbed her
roughly by the collar, held her snout and shouted in her face.
John:>or what happens if you do not praise them for a
while when they attempt to perform the undesired behavior?
I'm not sure I understand the question. Praising a bad
behavior, if done in the right situation, with the right
timing, and with four or five repetitions, should get the
dog to totally give up the desire to produce the behavior
ever again, at least in that location.
Remember, the desire to produce the behavior comes from
internal emotional tension. If that tension is resolved
through praise (or whatever tactic you use), the dog will
have learned that the behavior it had wanted to produce
didn't get a successful result, but that listening to you
(or responding to whatever tactic you used to relieve the
tension) *did*.
> > So, I used his "technique" on Pan's stick chewing.
Yeah, but NON VIOLENT METHODS
DO NOT WORK for DOG ABUSERS:
Re: Your Training Modality is Driving Your Dogs Crazy
Leah:>>Is there something wrong with being curious?
Morrison:>You're not curious, Leah. IMO, you're just wishy-washy.
Kelley: I don't have the same history that you seem
to have with Leah, but I hardly think being open to
exploring new ideas qualifies as being "wishy-washy".
To me it shows intelligence. But then, from what I've
seen, you've demonstrated a singular kind of black
and-white mentality and a highly ignorant closed-mindedness.
Morrison:>You keep thinking that there's some "new"
method out there that will VOILA!, magically transform
you into a great trainer, and overnight, too.
> It just doesn't work that way.
Kelley: Actually, that's *exactly* how it worked with me.
Within the first day of using these techniques I went from
becoming a run-of-the-mill dog trainer to being pretty damn
good, if I do say so myself, and all simply by testing the
techniques, just to see if they worked.
I've said from the beginning that if I can get the kind of
amazing results I do when I'm not really a dog trainer at
heart, but a writer, then someone who's really a dog trainer
at heart would become a far better trainer than I am instantly,
just by using these methods.
Somewhere along the line, however, I discovered a dirty
little secret about the mentality of most dog trainers: they
only *became* trainers because they liked the feeling of
power and control it gave them. If that's the case with
you, then you definitely wouldn't like natural dog training
because it ultimately teaches a dog how to control his own
behavior.
In fact in some ways, it forces you to turn your need for
control over to the dog because the method only works
when you put your trust in a dog's natural instincts
instead of fighting against them all the time.
That's because when you put yourself in alignment
with a dog's instincts, the dog will naturally obey
you under any and all circumstances because group
harmony and cooperation, when properly nurtured,
are the most fundamental aspects of a dog's nature.
I came across the following quote recently, and though
I have no idea who Edward Hoagland is, I think what
he says here speaks volumes: "In order to really enjoy
a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semi-human.
The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of
becoming partly a dog." - Edward Hoagland
Leah:>>This "praise the dog when he misbehaves"
thing keeps coming up, and nobody has been able
to explain it to me.
Morrison:>That's because no one can.
Actually, Jerry Howe explains it pretty well.
And as for the incident I related where I praised my
dog when he found a juicy chicken breast and my praise
caused him to drop it, and subsequently got him to stop
scavenging altogether, merely by praising him everytime
he found something, the answer is pretty clear.
He didn't pick up that chicken breast because he was
hungry, he did it because he was looking for something
to do that would satisfy an inner emotional need, relating
to his instincts.
When I praised him, suddenly and very enthusiastically, he
dropped the chicken breast because the praise provided him
with more emotional satisfaction than the chicken breast
did at that particular moment.
You could look at this as being an example of pure
operant conditioning, if you like (though you'd be
wrong), but it would still mean that you would have
to give up your beliefs about what praise is and how
and why it works, and you don't strike me as someone
who's capable of even *questioning* your beliefs, let
alone capable of giving them up.
Morrison:>every single method out there is based on CC
and/or OC. That's a fact.
No, it's not a fact. The only reason it seems factual to
you is because the basic premise of behavioral science is
tautological in nature (and also because, IMO, you have a
tiny mind).
In my estimation it's more likely that there are little
green men on Mars than that what you think is operant
conditioning is what's really taking place when a dog
learns *anything*.
Dogs do not learn things by association or by repetition
or by trial and error, but through their emotions, pure
and simple.
Even Pavlov said: "Positive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective of its pragmatic
significance at a given moment, serve as the reinforcement."
Of course, even Pavlov got it wrong on the most basic
level, since there really is no such thing as a reinforcement,
but that's another story for another day.
---------------------------
Dr. Larry Male, Engineer, Scientist
and Mathematician, writes *AFTER
studying Dr. Miller's works:
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
From: "TooCool" <larrymale @hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004
Subject: Puppy Wizard's Wits End Training Method
http://www.freewebs.com/thesimplyamazingpuppy
wizard/777witsendmanual.htm
I have studied canine behavior and dog
training for years. I have a huge library
that covers every system of training.
The Puppy Wizard's (Jerry Howe's) Wits'
End Training Method is by far the most
scientific, the most advanced, the kindest,
the quickest and the most effective training
method yet discovered.
It is not an assortment of training tips
and tricks; it is a logically consistent
system. Every behavior problem and every
obedience skill is treated in the same
logically consistent manner.
Please study his manual carefully. Please
endeavor to understand the basis of his
system and please follow his directions
exactly. His manual is a masterpiece. It
is dense with theory, with explanation,
with detailed descriptions about why
behavior problems occur and how their
solution should be approached.
One should not pick and choose from among
his methods based upon what you personally
like or dislike. His is not a bag of tricks
but a complete and integrated system for
not only training a dog but for raising a
loving companion.
When I once said to Jerry that his system
creates for you the dog of your dreams,
his response was that it produces for your
dog the owner of his dreams.
You see, Jerry has discovered that if
you are gentle with your dog then he
will be gentle with you, if you praise
your dog every time he looks at you,
then you will become the center of your
dogs world, if you use Jerry's sound
distraction with praise, then it takes
just minutes-sometimes merely seconds-to
train your dog to not misbehave (even in
your absence) (Just 15 seconds this morning
to train my 10 week old puppy to lie quietly
and let me clip his nails).
Using Jerry's scientific method (sound
distraction / praise / alteration /
variation) it takes just minutes to train
you dog to respond to your commands.
What a pleasure it was for me to see my
6 week old puppy running as fast has his
wobbly little legs would carry him in
response to my recall command-and he
comes running every time I call no matter
where we are or what he is doing.
At ten weeks old now, my puppy never
strains upon his leash thanks to Jerry's
hot & cold exercises and his Family Pack
Leadership exercises.
Jerry has discovered that if you scold
your dog, if you scream at him, if you
intimidate him, if you hurt him, if you
force him then his natural response is
to oppose you.
Is Jerry a nut?
It doesn't make any difference to me whether
he is or not. It is a logical fallacy to judge
a person's ideas based upon their personality.
As far as dogs are concerned, Jerry wears his
heart upon his sleeve. It touches him deeply
when he hears of trainers forcing, intimidating,
scolding or hurting dogs.
More than that, he knows that force is
not effective and that it will certainly
lead to behavior problems; sometime
problems so severe that people put their
dogs down because of those problems.
I believe that it is natural for humans
to want to control their dog by force.
Jerry knows this too. We have all been
at our wits' end, haven't we?
Dogs have a natural tendency to mimic. In
scientific literature it is referred to
allelomimetic behavior. Dogs respond in
like kind to force; they respond in like
kind to praise.
Don't bribe your dog with treats; give him
what he wants most-your kind attention. Give
him your praise.
You will be astonished at how your dog 's
anxiety will dissipate and how their behavior
problems will dissipate along with their anxiety.
Treat Jerry Howe's (The Puppy Wizard) Wits'
End Training Method as a scientific principle
just as you would the law of gravity and you
will have astounding success.
Dog behavior is just as scientific as is gravity.
If you follow Jerry's puppy rules you will get
a sweet little Magwai; if you don't you will
surely get a little gremlin (anyone see The
Gremlins?).
--Larry
-----------------
From: "The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWiz...@EarthLink.Net>
To: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com>
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 4:40 AM
Subject: Fw: Counter Cruising must stop
> From: "diannes" <dian...@bolt.sonic.net>
> Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 12:18 PM
> Subject: Re: Counter Cruising must stop
> > LeeCharlesKelley <kelleymet...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > I wrote:
> > > > LeeCharlesKelley <kelleymet...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > > > On another note: I understand why someone
> > > > > proclaiming a method that works on all dogs,
> > > > > all the time, would send up "red flag" to you
> > > > > and others, but the fact remains, if a technique
> > > > > *doesn't* work 100% of the time, with all dogs,
> > > > > then there must be a flaw in the philosophy
> > > > > underlying that technique.
> > > > Ditto for dog training. No failure nor flaw of method
> > > > is involved - that's just acceptance of reality.
> > > First of all, I didn't say that there was a flaw in the
> > > method, though anyone is welcome to make that
> > > leap.
> > > I said there was a flaw in the underlying philosophy
> > > and its model of learning.
> > Correction accepted. I think that perhaps we are using
> > terminology differently here. Here is my use of the terms:
Jerry, I don't know where you find these folk who can't read.
> In order to use negative reinforcement, one must
> typically administer the aversive stimulus in order
> to be able to terminate it.
This is not negative reinforcement. Negative means no.
Positive reinforcement = behavior emitted by dog,
reward emitted immediately by trainer;
Negative reinforcement = behavior emitted by dog,
no response by trainer;
Aversive reinforcement = behavior emitted by dog,
aversive stimuli emitted immediately by trainer;
The term "reinforcement is used only tentatively with
"aversion" because aversive stimuli (aka punishment)
typically derange learning and are not followed by clean
learning curves equivalent to those which follow reward
or positive reinforcement;
Escape conditioning = dog has an aversive stimulus
applied without any dog related reason and when
behavior is emitted aversive stim is immediately turned off .
There is some indication that Escape Conditioning
works in a manner closely approximating reward;
but, ear pinch? -- too aversive.
I remind you that you should beat them over the head
with "The Misbehavior of Organisms" by Breland and
Breland, published in B.F. Skinner's CUMULATIVE
RECORD. Ignored by most profs of psychology, but
the distillation of his work.
NO PUNISHMENT.
Must pay attention to who is the animal?
His evolution, his development, and his personal history -
cannot train without respect for who is the dog? So says
the BIG TIME operant conditioning guru - and you can also
refer back to MARY COVER JONES (mother of scientific
systematic psychology), no loving, no learning.
I suppose I could wire up a dog so that his brain was
badly interrupted and the loving method of puppy training
might not work well - but it would still work better than
the methods used by dominatrix and their ilk.
Lovingly applied ethological techniques like the one
espoused by the Wizard of ALL puppies work for all
dogs, for that matter for all mammals higher than cat.
Indeed, they will work for cats if trainer is warmly competent.
You can see this in Key West on any sunny day.
Housecats performing quite happily.
Fondly, Dr. Von
------------------------
Sincerely,
Jerry Howe,
Director of Research,
Human And Animal Behavior
Forensic Sciences Research Laboratory,
BIOSOUND Scientific,
Director of Training,
Wits' End Dog Training
1611 24th St
Orlando, FL 32805
Phone: 1-407-425-5092
E-mails:
Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Foren...@HotMail.Com
Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Foren...@HotMail.Com
TheAmazing...@Mail.Com
"Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens!"
-Friedrich Schiller.
"Against stupidity the Gods themselves contend in vain."
INDEEDY.
AND THAT'S HOWE COME THEY GOT ME NHOWE!
In Love And Light,
I Remain Respectfully, Humbly Yours,
Jerry Howe,
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
A-M-A-Z-I-N-G
G-R-A-N-D
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy, Ferret, Goat, Monkey,
SpHOWES And Horsey Wizard <{) ; ~ ) >
HOWE MAY I SERVE YOU <{}; ~ ) >
DelusionalDimen...@i-love-dogs.com
<jf...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:agkne3turom9io071...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 02:41:35 GMT, "M.J." <M.J.@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"M.J." <M.J.@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:08HGi.26844$eY.2...@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net...
>>
>>>Of course the hypothesis that he was mentally worked to death
>>>is just that a hypothesis, but since no cause of death has been
>>>identified it is as good as anything else, perhaps even most plausible.
>>> After all, Alex was part of an ongoing mental experiment to
>>>test the limits of avian intelligence. The experiment ended
>>>abruptly with an unexplained, premature death of the bird.
>>>
>>> Please do not forget, this is exactly what happened from
>>> a scientific perspective. The African Grey subject among
>>> many other things learned to count to six, or seven.
>
>>I'll repeat once more!
>
> You can repeat it until the cows come
> home but that doesn't make it true
No. The TRUTH is SELF-EVIDENT.
> and they are probably not reading this group,
That's IRRELEVENT. YOU are readin it <{}: ~ ) >
> so your rants are not being heard.
Naaaah? Of curse you're HEARING it but you
AIN'T BUYIN IT on accHOWENTA you're
a self important ignorameHOWES <{}: ~ ( >
> You are just screaming into a full gale.
And you're blowin smoke up HOWER arses.
>>Is this what you did to the poor creature, Ms Irene Pepperberg?
>
> Rant on if you need to clear your mind.
Rant? Naaah. M.J. is EXXXPOSING the "researchers"
and you're DEFENDING them on accHOWENTA you're
a ignorameHOWES <{}: ~ ( >
>>Have him worked to death by your research?
>
> Rant some more if it will help.
DENY IT some more if you wish <{}: ~ ) >
>> 8-12 hours a day, every day, of gruelling mental exercise,
>> just to find out where the limits of avian intelligence exist!
>
> We do the same thing with our children
INDEEDY!
THAT'S THE POINT you freakin blowhard.
> and our mentallychallenged
Those "MENTALLY CHALLENGED" WOULDN'T BE
"mentally challenged" if we didn't ABUSE them <{}: ~ ( >
> in school but that's somehow different.
NO. IT'S THE SAME SAME SAME SAME <{}: ~ ( >
A DOG Is A DOG;
As A KAT Is A KAT;
As A BIRDY Is A BIRDY;
As A HORSE Is A HORSE;
As A GOAT Is A GOAT;
As A Ferett Is A Ferett;
As A Monkey Is A Monkey;
As A CHILD IS A CHILD;
As A SP-HOWES Is a SP-HOWES;
As A Mass Murderer Is A Mass Murderer.
ALL Critters Only Respond In
PREDICTABLE INNATE NORMAL NATURAL
INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE Ways;
To Situations And Circumstances Of Their Environment
Which We Create For Them.
You GET The Critter You TRAINED
In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
FAILURE MEANS DEATH.
SAME SAME SAME SAME,
For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.
>> No wonder Alex died so young.
>
> There are humans that die young too from things that have gone
> un-noticed for years too but that is, somehow, different to you.
Oh, well THANK YOU for acknowledging the PROBLEM <{}: ~ ) >
HOWEver, it's much more than WORK. It's the KINDS of "work"
he was forced to do and the kinds of anXXXIHOWESNESS relief
mechanisims he was ABLE to indulge in that CAUSE STRESS
INDUCED AUTO-IMMUNE DIS-EASE aka The Puppy Wizard's
Syndrome <{}: ~ ( >
Force / bribe / avoidance / clicker raining represents a major
health crisis for humans and critters; those are the primary
causes of HYPERACTIVITY, AGGRESSION and "unprovoked"
ATTACKS on humans, second ONLY to surgical sexual
mutilations which eviscrates their MATERNAL / PATERNAL
INSTINCTS to NOT ATTACK other innocent defenseless dumb
critters or HARM CHILDREN.
Almost everything we are taught about animal behavior is
incorrect from the critter's point of view as THEY understand
Natural Law.
Our typical forced control / bribe / avoidance / punishment
approaches to animal AND child behavior violates Natural
Law and challenges critter's AND children's survival instincts
and results in animosity, aggression, shyness, DIS-EASE and
"unwarranted" attacks on family members, and the deaths of
millions of critters and the criminalization and incarceration
of HOWER youths <{}: ~ ( >
> Maybe they will come up with just why he died after all
> of the tests are in but you want to rant on about facts that
> are not in evidence to push some political agenda you might
> have.
And you DENY the FACTS to support the RESEARCHERS
'who AIN'T LISTENTING anyHOWE' to compensate for your
own fragile defective ego, weak fearful mind and colossal
inferiority complexes <{}: ~ ( >
> You probably won't be satisfied even then because
> you have an axe to grind and accuse the labs and
> whoever else is involved in a cover up to hide the truth.
Naaah? Perhaps you're sufferin from SHAME FEAR an GUILT?
HOWE COME would "behavioral researchers" want to
"COVER UP to HIDE the TRUTH"? Oh, PERHAPS it's
on accHOWENTA they'd LOSE their RESEARCH FUNDING.
>>Both you and Brandeis University should be ashamed of yourselves!
INDEEDY <{}: ~ ( >
> No, you just want to justify your preconceptions and
> your personal views by taking advantage of any problem
> that arises from any animal research.
And you're nuthin but a ignorameHOWES <{}: ~ ( >
> James F. Mayer
> President
> J F M Electronic Systems, Inc. Surge Protection for Access Control
> E-Mail jf...@ix.netcom.com
> Web Page http://home.netcom.com/~jfma/
> EarthLink Revolves Around You.
BWEEEAAAAHAAAHAAA!
Dann
news:o7t9f3tg50nm21g91...@4ax.com.
Finally! Some speculation that is related to the available facts.
--
Regards,
Dann
blogging at http://web.newsguy.com/dainbramage/blog.htm
Freedom works; each and every time it is tried.
Peter Hucker
You've got to be experienced to know that's the change to look for.
>> He might have been older,
>> than 1 yr when bought, but probably not by much.
>>
>> It is not out of the question though that he might have been bought
>> an older bird (?). Irene was no expert then I suppose.
>>
>> Wildcaught? I don't think so, very unlikely, as these are not
>> easy to tame, even if young.
>
> and you know this how?
Maybe he's tried it?
>> But on the other hand they are
>> supposedly smarter than handfed ones. Alex seemed very smart,
>> and his companions Griffin, and the other, I forget his/her name,
>> are not nearly as talented as Alex was. Intriguing question.
>>
> BTW it has been speculated t Alex might have succumbed to
> Aspergillosis, a fungal infection of the lungs that he had battled in
> the past.
So you're using speculation too?
--
This message has been brought to you by solar and wind power. Who needs the national grid?
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com
Why are there more white people killed in avalanches than blacks?
The blacks are easier to find in the snow.
Peter Hucker
--
This message has been brought to you by solar and wind power. Who needs the national grid?
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com
You wag your tail like your mother, you repugnant, hairball engorging, cat buggering, pseudo-human android spawn of a foul-smelling telephone solicitor!
Peter Hucker
--
This message has been brought to you by solar and wind power. Who needs the national grid?
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com
I take loads of laxatives when the pollen count rises. It stops me sneezing - I daren't.
Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Foren...@hotmail.com
"Peter Hucker" <no...@spam.com> wrote in
message news:op.ty2ewrgp4buhsv@fx62...
> Can I have some of what you're smoking?
Ahhh, the HEELIN of the Nations!:
Mumia Abu-Jamal:
The significance of the herb, aka, the flower?
Bob Marley:
Herb? herb is the healing of the nation, seen? Once
you smoke herb, you all must think alike. Now if you
thinking alike, dat mean we 'pon the same track. If we
'pon the same track, that mean we gonna unite.
Some say 'don't smoke herb.' Dey don't want us
to unite, right, so they say, 'don't smoke herb.'
(laughter)...It's true!
So you know, herb is the healing of the nation and
people must get herb for dem use. Dem wanna smoke
it, let 'em smoke it. Dem wanna boil it in tea, let 'em
boil it in tea. If dem waan steam it, steam it, if dem
gwanna eat a little, eat a little, but dem must det it!
True true. Yea, mon, that is why I say, um, you have a
lotta liquor store, and because dem know man must
smoke, you have plenty cigarette, but dem no waan ya
smoke herb, y'know?
Because, as ya know, the alcohol kill ya, and herb
build ya! Yea, herb make ya live. People I know
smoke herb live the longest! Jah know! True, true!
Herb smoker live the longest pon earth, mon -- true
true! I know a man when I a likkle youth who smoke
herb and I grown and see, him kyaan change, him is
the same mon from ever since! (laughter)...Him a deal
with Rasta, ya know? One named Robert. Never
change. See him years, never change...It's Rasta ya
know?
***DISCLAIMER***
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy, Goat, Ferett, Monkey,
SpHOWES And Horsey Wizard
***DOES NOT ENDORSE***
OR
***ADVOCATE***
the use of spirits or psychotropic substances
other than for medicinal puporses under the
supervision and counselorship of a competent
professional medical or spiritual guide <{}: ~ ) >
No, sorry Peter. As you see, that'd be UNETHICKAL
sans pryor physical, psychological, and / or spiritual
evaluation <{}: ~ ( >
AND it'd be ILLEGAL according to your ELECTED government <{}: ~ ( >
HOWEver, you're quite welcome to DISCUSS or CHALLENGE
the PEER REVIEWED SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION I've cited
for your edification <{}'; ~ ) >
"Ye shall know the truth,
and the truth shall make you mad." -
~Aldous Huxley.
"Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter
selbst vergebens!" -Friedrich Schiller.
"Against stupidity the Gods themselves
contend in vain."
INDEEDY.
AND THAT'S HOWE COME THEY GOT ME NHOWE!
In Love And Light,
I Remain Respectfully, Humbly Yours,
Jerry Howe,
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
A-M-A-Z-I-N-G
G-R-A-N-D
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy, Ferret, Goat, Monkey
SpHOWES And Horsey Wizard <{) ;~ ) >
HOWE MAY I SERVE YOU <{}; ~ ) >
Sincerely,
Jerry Howe,
Director of Research,
Human And Animal Behavior
Forensic Sciences Research Laboratory,
BIOSOUND Scientific,
Director of Training,
Wits' End Dog Training
1611 24th St
Orlando, FL 32805
Phone: 1-407-425-5092
(Call ANY TIME)
E-mail:
Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Foren...@HotMail.Com
Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Foren...@HotMail.Com
TheAmazing...@Mail.Com
On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 14:01:50 +0100, <DelusionalDimensionsRecoveryDDR@i-
Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Foren...@hotmail.com
Perahps not, steevie. HOWEver, when pathetic miserable
stinkin lyin animal abusin punk thug cowards like yourself
cite "scientific" terminology to CONfHOWEND us, The
Sincerely Incredibly Freaking INSNELY Simply Amazing
Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy, Goat, Ferret, Monkey,
SpHOWES And Horsey Wizard gotta do MORE research
to CITE the SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH that'll put you gently
and humanely to sleep <{}: ~ ( >
> Pepperberg did not use the clicker method to teach Alex.
The clicker a.k.a. CLICK / TREAT method INCREASES
anXXXIHOWESNESS to dangerHOWES levels where
OBSESSIVE COMPULSIVE DISORDERS, SEIZURES
and SELF MUTILATION occur <{}: ~ ( >
> She used the model rival method wich comes close
> to how parrots learn in the wild from their peers.
No, steevie. The "Rival / Model Method" comes CLOSER
to the OFFER and WITHOLD BRIBE / CLICK and REWARD
method preferred by "operant" trainers <{}: ~ ( >
"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.
> Have you even read her book "the Alex Studies"?
No. It costs $55.00 AND IT'S IRRELEVENT <{}: ~ ( >
> Steve n Misty-
Here's some RESEARCH:
"The experimenters acknowledged that the study was limited
by a small sample size and a haphazard variation in dog
demographics and rearing history (including previous training
in retrieval tasks). Additionally, the primate subject of a
previous model-rival study attacked the model-rival, prompting
caution in future experiments," (McKinley and Young, 2003).
"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING
THEORY model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT.
Of curse, Skinner has never to my knowledge,
demonstrated HOWE we escape the phenomenon that
an expected reward not received is experienced as a
punishment and can produce extensive and persistent
aggression (Azrin et al, 1966)."
"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) report a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are reported to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS
were moved to a delayed contingency the behavior and
learning immediately deteriorated."
In Dr. Pepperberg's version of model/rival training, one person
first plays the trainer and a second person is the model/rival who
demonstrates (or models) the correct responses to the question,
and also competes with Alex (is his rival) for the attention of the
trainer. A typical session might proceed as follows:
Trainer: "What color?" (Holds a piece of blue paper)
Model/rival: "Blue."
Trainer: "Very good! It's blue. That's great. Very good!" (Trainer
gives the blue paper to the model/rival because she gave the
right response)
Alex: (Watches the actions and listens to the conversation. He
sees the model/rival, not only being lavished with attention, but
also being allowed to play with the paper.)
Then the trainer and model/rival reverse their roles and include
Alex in the session. If he answers the question correctly, he gets
the blue paper. If not, the person now acting as the model/rival
answers the question and will get the paper.
The role reversal for the people is important because the birds
studied by Todt only responded to the primary trainer. It was
important that Alex learn to exchange information with many
people, that he respond to the information presented and not
the presence of a familiar person.
RESULTS
Does this method work? Does it allow Dr. Pepperberg to explore
Alex's mind and discover what he is and is not capable of learning?
Yes. Why does it work? There are three reasons.
First, the trainer provides the social interactions that parrots
experience
in the wild. Why should that matter to Alex? Though Alex has lived
his
life in captivity, he is still a "WILD" bird. He is a product of
millions of
years of evolution that has shaped how he looks, sounds, behaves,
eats and even how he thinks. He cannot be more than Nature has
made him. He will never be less.
Secondly, by showing Alex the actual piece of blue paper and by
allowing him to play with the paper that he has correctly labeled,
he learns that the word has a different relationship to a three-
dimensional object.
This is called reference. The words refer to something that interests
him. For example, Alex was taught the label "key" with the many types
of keys. He learned that the label "key" can refer to a blue key, a
red
key, or a yellow key. It can be wood, metal or plastic. It can be
large
or small.
If Pepperberg suddenly shows Alex a key he's never seen before, he
will recognize the shape of the object as a key. He has learned that
the label "key" has its own reference; it is an object with a
particular
shape.
Third, Alex learns that the labels can be used. They have a function.
He was trained to say "want," and to connect "want" with an object
label to obtain that object. For example, Alex will say "want cork,"
so that a student will get him a piece of cork to chew. (He also says,
"want nut." Pepperberg often responds, "how about fruit instead?"
But Alex never gives up!) If Alex requests an object, someone gets
it for him. If it wasn't what he really wanted, he must recall the
correct
label and use it. And though the "reward" for a correct answer is the
object of the label, Alex is permitted to express his preferences and
ask for something else.
(It should be noted that the use of words does not constitute command
of language, according to conventions agreed upon by linguists. True
language involves understanding and using proper grammar and tense.
Alex does not do this and Dr. Pepperberg makes no claims that he does.
She is careful to explain that Alex communicates using an English-
based
language-like code.)
Paper was the first label that Alex learned. Twenty-two
years ago it launched a study that continues today...
Barbara Katz has known Dr. Pepperberg for many years and writes
about the work on Alex for THE GREY PLAY ROUND TABLE.
------------------
From: "GEORGE VONHILSHEINER" <DRV...@EARTHLINK.NET>
To: "Jerry Howe" <theamazingpuppywiz...@mail.com>
Subject: Proposed article for Wikipedia
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006
The Amazing Puppy Wizard is the cognomen of a dog behaviorist,
Jerry Howe, of Orlando, Fl. Howe's primary teaching is that
dogs deserve unconditional love, respect, and attention and
that by providing these emotional needs dogs will regulate
their own behavior.
Howe is bombastically antagonistic to rewarders, but he is
aggressively hostile to punishers - he refers antagonists
to B.F. Skinner, Mary Cover Jones, and J.B. Watson and
especially to Samuel A. Corson when they mistakenly annunciate
behavioral principles to support their use of punishment.
Punishment always deranges behavior, says Skinner,
Jones, Watson, Corson and Jerry Howe!
Howe developed a sonic device which calms dogs and has
been broadly tested in a wide range of different situations.
The present author is a Who's Who recognized psychologist
who was asked to evaluate Howe's device by a former student.
Howe provided the author with a device, without
charge, and said device worked as reported.
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
drv...@earthlink.net
Then cross reference to Jerry Howe, etc.
--------------
Jerry, the difficulty with these ignorant dog molesters
is that they cannot read. Negative reinforcement is no
response by the trainer.
There is positive reinforcement, an action which is followed
by an increase in the targetted behavior (usually called
"reward" which is precisely and technically a misnomer),
negative reinforcement is the absence of any response.
Negative means 'No'.
Skinner's last book, "CUMULATIVE RECORD" reviews this
thoroughly. http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/proj/nru/nr.html
Negative reinforcement is stopping an aversive reinforcement
according to this author. Read it, they have a sense of humor!
There are four forms of systematic reinforcement:
do nothing (negative reinforcement)
reward the behavior (positive reinforcement)
punish the behavior (aversive reinforcement) after habituating
the subject to punishment,
stop punishing (relief of aversion, which is negative reinforcement).
Logically, failing to reward after habituating a reward
is also negative reinforcement. Actually intermittent
rewards work better than consistent, invariable rewards,
so there is actually another two categories. Invariable
reinforcement and random reinforcement (on varying schedules).
Punishment is AVERSIVE REINFORCEMENT.
Actions which cause the animal being trained to avoid,
avert, cringe away from. Pavlovians always responded
to American psychologist's inability to reproduce Pavlov's
results with dogs with the comment, "American's don't LOVE
their dogs". If you ever observed a Russian psychologist
working with a dog, you'd instantly see the difference.
American psychologists were wooden, robot-like,
wanted to be "scientific".
This meant to them that they should display no
affection, or any other emotion with the subjects.
When a Pavlovian dog started to misbehave or fail to respond,
doggie was taken out of the equipment, and taken home for a
loving vacation, with much TLC. Sam Corson, Pavlov's last
student, demonstrated the same relationships at Ohio State.
Interestingly the first page of results for Sam Corson,
dog behaviorist is loaded with Jerry Howe quoting Dr. Von.
heh heh heh
Dr. Von
Oh, by the way, you once had a pompous fellow say that
Dr. Von was a figment of your imagination. I don't
normally mention this, but I have been listed in Who's
Who in the S & SE USA since 1982, and in the big books,
Who's Who in the USA, WW in the World, WW in Medicine
etc, and WW in Science and Technology, since that date.
These are the Marquis Publications, the "real" WW, and
you can't get yourself into them.
GvH
============
xpen...@earthlink.net
wrote:
The information is readily available for anyone that isn't to lazy to
too no you don't
>
>>> He might have been older,
>>> than 1 yr when bought, but probably not by much.
>>>
>>> It is not out of the question though that he might have been bought
>>> an older bird (?). Irene was no expert then I suppose.
>>>
>>> Wildcaught? I don't think so, very unlikely, as these are not
>>> easy to tame, even if young.
>>
>> and you know this how?
>
>Maybe he's tried it?
I doubt it but let's say he did. How many?
>
>>> But on the other hand they are
>>> supposedly smarter than handfed ones. Alex seemed very smart,
>>> and his companions Griffin, and the other, I forget his/her name,
>>> are not nearly as talented as Alex was. Intriguing question.
>>>
>> BTW it has been speculated t Alex might have succumbed to
>> Aspergillosis, a fungal infection of the lungs that he had battled in
>> the past.
>
>So you're using speculation too?
Speculation with fact behind it.
Peter Hucker
"lazy to too no you don't"? Please speak English.
>>>> He might have been older,
>>>> than 1 yr when bought, but probably not by much.
>>>>
>>>> It is not out of the question though that he might have been bought
>>>> an older bird (?). Irene was no expert then I suppose.
>>>>
>>>> Wildcaught? I don't think so, very unlikely, as these are not
>>>> easy to tame, even if young.
>>>
>>> and you know this how?
>>
>> Maybe he's tried it?
>
> I doubt it but let's say he did. How many?
That's why he said "unlikely" and not "impossible".
>>>> But on the other hand they are
>>>> supposedly smarter than handfed ones. Alex seemed very smart,
>>>> and his companions Griffin, and the other, I forget his/her name,
>>>> are not nearly as talented as Alex was. Intriguing question.
>>>>
>>> BTW it has been speculated t Alex might have succumbed to
>>> Aspergillosis, a fungal infection of the lungs that he had battled in
>>> the past.
>>
>> So you're using speculation too?
>
> Speculation with fact behind it.
Hmmmm, like "an educated guess". Right....
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Peter Hucker
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jf...@ix.netcom.com
wrote:
>On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 14:04:09 +0100, <jf...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 04:02:29 GMT, "M.J." <M.J.@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "max" <beta...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>> news:13emjp3...@corp.supernews.com...
>>>> In article <zDHGi.26846$eY....@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net>,
>>>> "M.J." <M.J.@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'll repeat once more!
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this what you did to the poor creature, Ms Irene Pepperberg?
>>>>>
>>>>> Have him worked to death by your research?
>>>>> 8-12 hours a day, every day, of gruelling mental exercise, just to
>>>>> find out where the limits of avian intelligence exist! No wonder
>>>>> Alex died so young.
>>>>
>>>> What you are describing is a death due to prolonged mental stress. fine.
>>>>
>>>> Typically, when an animal, human or otherwise, is under chronic mental
>>>> stress,
>>>
>>>
>>> No, it is not fine, as the type of stress Alex was subjected to
>>> is not comparable to anything else that an animal may encounter
>>> in nature.
>>>
>> Neither is talking in human language.
>
>They do this of their own accord.
>
>>> Usually stress means fear, hunger, uncertainty, noise, many other
>>> environmental factors. A 30 year rigorous regiment of learning
>>> to think abstractly, admionistered from the earliest age, is a stress
>>> factor different than anything a parrot can encounter and there is
>>> no way to judge how the creature will react to it (that is long term
>>> effect).
>>>
>> Really? Problem solving is something parrots don't encounter
>> every day?
>
>Not 100 times a day.
Every action is an exercise in problem solving.
Finding food, even if it is handed to you in a dish is an exercise
in problem solving.
jf...@ix.netcom.com
wrote:
>On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 20:12:19 +0100, Dave Bugg <dave...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Correct. They solve exactly 317.25 problems each day. Except on weekends and
>> when they go on vacation
>
>What happens to the .25 problem?
Every fourth day it is added like a leap problem.
jf...@ix.netcom.com
<lizzardw...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
><jf...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>news:agkne3turom9io071...@4ax.com...
>| On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 02:41:35 GMT, "M.J." <M.J.@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>(snip)
>
>| > No wonder Alex died so young.
>| >
>|
>| There are humans that die young too from things that have gone
>| un-noticed for years too but that is, somehow, different to you. Maybe
>| they will come up with just why he died after all of the tests are in
>| but you want to rant on about facts that are not in evidence to push
>| some political agenda you might have. You probably won't be satisfied
>| even then because you have an axe to grind and accuse the labs and
>| whoever else is involved in a cover up to hide the truth.
>
>The data likely don't exist but I'd like to know the mortality rate of 31 yo
>AG parrots. I think it's safe to assume it is non-zero and not just because
>of Alex.
>
In the wild or in captivity? In the wild it would be much
higher, I would presume.
jf...@ix.netcom.com
<lizzardw...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>"Steve" <sste...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:1190040814.4...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>| On Sep 15, 10:56 pm, "M.J." <M...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>| > <j...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>| >
>| > news:agkne3turom9io071...@4ax.com...
>| >
>| > Blah, blah, blah.
>| >
>| > I 've cut out the nonsense from your post, but will reply to your
>questions
>| > about preconceived ideas and personal views. Sure I express my personal
>| > views but these have extensive backing in real empirical data i.e.
>| > experiences
>| > I have gathered over a perion of nearly 10 years of being an TAG owner.
>| >
>| > My 10 year old TAG (Timneh African Grey) Mbeki whom I have raised
>| > and handfed since 6 weeks old is a cute playful and intelligent little
>| > fellow.
>| > Compared to Alex Mbeki is probalby a great moron as his vocabulary is
>| > only around 6-7 words. I have subjected Mbeki to learning lessons many
>| > times and have always noticed that the bird tires immensely after about
>| > 15-20 minutes of mental exercersise -becomes cranky, and wants to leave,
>| > go back to the cage, playtop, or whatever.
>| >
>| > Sure, slowly and over time he could be made to endure longer and longer
>| > sessions until he probably would be able to withstand a gruelling 8-12
>hour
>| > working/learning day, but I know this would not be without a risk of
>| > negative
>| > long term consequenses.
>| >
>| > Mbeki is my pet, and not some ALEX (Avian Learning EXperiment)
>| > therefore I don't "torment" him past the 10-15 minute that he playfully
>| > offers me.
>| >
>| > M.J.
>| >
>|
>| You are clearly ignorant of the methods that Dr Pepperberg used with
>| Alex as well as the life and relationships he had
>| with the other lab helpers and fellow parrots.
>| Alex's sessions were typically half hour or less. He was quite capable
>| of ending sessions when he had had enough.
>| Where on earth do you get the idea that Alex had an 8 or 12 hour
>| working day?
>| It would be safe to say that no pet parrot had a better life than Alex
>| including yours.
>| Now as you still have 20 years or so to go before Mbeki reaches Alex's
>| age perhaps you can do us all a favor
>| and repost in 20 years to let us know that he is still alive.
>| (Of course I hope he is)
>
>Plus aren't we all forgetting that there is a possibility the bird was an
>idiot savant of the parrot world and therefore whatever work he had may have
>PROLONGED his life? Since folks are throwing around evidence-free
>assertions, I just thought I'd toss one in. ; )
>
I have considered it. In the wild, ALEX may have died of
whatever a lot sooner than in captivity and his life could have been
prolonged by the lab personnel even above being someone's pet with the
attention to his diet and his health they provided.
Ocean of Nuance
<jf...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:p3hbf31dsgd0kgh31...@4ax.com...
| On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 09:06:08 -0400, "Ocean of Nuance"
| <lizzardw...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
|
| >
| ><jf...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
| >news:agkne3turom9io071...@4ax.com...
| >| On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 02:41:35 GMT, "M.J." <M.J.@yahoo.com> wrote:
| >
| >(snip)
| >
| >| > No wonder Alex died so young.
| >| >
| >|
| >| There are humans that die young too from things that have gone
| >| un-noticed for years too but that is, somehow, different to you. Maybe
| >| they will come up with just why he died after all of the tests are in
| >| but you want to rant on about facts that are not in evidence to push
| >| some political agenda you might have. You probably won't be satisfied
| >| even then because you have an axe to grind and accuse the labs and
| >| whoever else is involved in a cover up to hide the truth.
| >
| >The data likely don't exist but I'd like to know the mortality rate of 31
yo
| >AG parrots. I think it's safe to assume it is non-zero and not just
because
| >of Alex.
| >
| In the wild or in captivity? In the wild it would be much
| higher, I would presume.
Yes certainly but I bet it's non-zero even in captivity and even among
well-kept birds.
Horses who are well-kept die at relatively young ages also. I am suggesting
that the idea of this bird dying at 31 is not unheard of nor jaw-dropping
per se. Unusual,yes. Sinister? No way.
sharon
M.J.
news:isgbf3h0g6nqun4ku...@4ax.com...
Alex could have sat in front of a bowl and solved problems
of this type i.e. whether to pick a nut or a cracker all day long
and it would have had no impact on him as this type of problem
solving has nothing to do with is complex abstract thinking.
The type of exercises he was given in the lab were taxing his
brain like no other parrots' in the wild. Can't you realize that
simple fact? Do you have some mental disability that prevents
you from differentiating such basics?
M.J.
xpen...@earthlink.net
wrote:
look for it.
>
>"lazy to too no you don't"? Please speak English.
Now how about addressing your claim that one needs to be experienced
to know that the eye color changes as an AG ages.
>
>>>>> He might have been older,
>>>>> than 1 yr when bought, but probably not by much.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is not out of the question though that he might have been bought
>>>>> an older bird (?). Irene was no expert then I suppose.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wildcaught? I don't think so, very unlikely, as these are not
>>>>> easy to tame, even if young.
>>>>
>>>> and you know this how?
>>>
>>> Maybe he's tried it?
What's he got to do with anything?
>>
>> I doubt it but let's say he did. How many?
>
>That's why he said "unlikely" and not "impossible".
>
>>>>> But on the other hand they are
>>>>> supposedly smarter than handfed ones. Alex seemed very smart,
>>>>> and his companions Griffin, and the other, I forget his/her name,
>>>>> are not nearly as talented as Alex was. Intriguing question.
>>>>>
>>>> BTW it has been speculated t Alex might have succumbed to
>>>> Aspergillosis, a fungal infection of the lungs that he had battled in
>>>> the past.
>>>
>>> So you're using speculation too?
>>
>> Speculation with fact behind it.
>
>Hmmmm, like "an educated guess". Right....
You might call it that.
Peter Hucker
> On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 22:23:36 +0100, "Peter Hucker" <no...@spam.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 21:04:21 +0100, <xpen...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 18:00:49 +0100, "Peter Hucker" <no...@spam.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 12:04:18 +0100, <xpen...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 08:05:58 GMT, "M.J." <M.J.@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You've got to be experienced to se a change in eye color?
>>>>
>>>> You've got to be experienced to know that's the change to look for.
>>>
> The information is readily available for anyone that isn't to lazy to
> look for it.
>>
>> "lazy to too no you don't"? Please speak English.
>
> Now how about addressing your claim
Nice change of subject.
> that one needs to be experienced
> to know that the eye color changes as an AG ages.
I didn't, MJ did. You appear to be a little confused.
>>>>> and you know this how?
>>>>
>>>> Maybe he's tried it?
>
> What's he got to do with anything?
He started the discussion.
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/T /I
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(_/ / | | j-" ~^
jf...@ix.netcom.com
What I know is that you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Ocean of Nuance
<jf...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:5k6ef39ue7l9g1qnf...@4ax.com...
| On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 20:23:29 -0800, "M.J." <M.J.@yahoo.com> wrote:
|
| ><jf...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
| >news:isgbf3h0g6nqun4ku...@4ax.com...
| >> On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 19:22:26 +0100, "Peter Hucker" <no...@spam.com>
| >> wrote:
| >
| >>>> Really? Problem solving is something parrots don't encounter
| >>>> every day?
| >>>
| >>>Not 100 times a day.
| >>
| >>
| >> Every action is an exercise in problem solving.
| >> Finding food, even if it is handed to you in a dish is an exercise
| >> in problem solving.
| >
| >
| >Alex could have sat in front of a bowl and solved problems
| >of this type i.e. whether to pick a nut or a cracker all day long
| >and it would have had no impact on him as this type of problem
| >solving has nothing to do with is complex abstract thinking.
| >
| >The type of exercises he was given in the lab were taxing his
| >brain like no other parrots' in the wild. Can't you realize that
| >simple fact? Do you have some mental disability that prevents
| >you from differentiating such basics?
| >
| >M.J.
| >
| >
| What I know is that you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
I think these birds are being worked to death...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KA2QusBbwac
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJbmVM2NaLs&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PyAfHggV1s&NR=1
sharon
--
"Lights will guide you home
And ignite your bones
And I will try to fix you"
-- C. Martin
Maureen
wrote:
> <j...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>
> news:5k6ef39ue7l9g1qnf...@4ax.com...
> | On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 20:23:29 -0800, "M.J." <M...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> || ><j...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>
> | >news:isgbf3h0g6nqun4ku...@4ax.com...
The birds are all more talented than my husband trying to sing "The
Twelve Days of Christmas"!
Will in New Haven
> "Ocean of Nuance" <lizzardwomanRM...@nc.rr.com> wrote in messagenews:5l0koqF...@mid.individual.net...
>
> > Can I just ask a question here?
>
> > How unheard of is a bird like this dying at 31?
>
> > I have a scientific colleague who had some type of bird like this
> > (different
> > species) for several years. One year it died suddenly and I'm guessing it
> > was not wildly far from 31 based on what I know of the history. Jaws
> > didn't
> > drop.
>
> And a bunch of top national avian specialists could not identify
> the of the death? I don't think so!
>
> Alex's death is troubling, in a sense that no cause of death has been
> identified, therefore all the speculation.
You haven't been speculating. You have been extremely certain in an
area where no one really knows a damn thing. That his early death
might have been due to an overly ambitious and stressful training
schedule is not impossible. That this should be looked into is a very
good suggestion. That you know exactly what happened, which is what
you _seemed_ to be saying in earlier posts, is not true.
Our very young Eddisson doesn't seem to want to learn anything except
to cuddle with humans and to quarrel with our equally young Severe
Macaw. Does that mean he will live to be seventy?
Will in New Haven
--
>
> M.J.
>
>
>
>
>
> > sharon- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Peter Hucker
That poor cockatoo has an owner who can't sing.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJbmVM2NaLs&NR=1
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PyAfHggV1s&NR=1
Wow. I want one. But I gather they shriek even more than Conures.
--
This message has been brought to you by solar and wind power. Who needs the national grid?
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com
A man takes the day off work and decides to go out golfing. He is on the second hole when he notices a frog sitting next to the green. He thinks nothing of it and is about to shoot when he hears, "Ribbit, 9 Iron" The man looks around and doesn't see anyone. "Ribbit, 9 Iron." He looks at the frog and decides to prove the frog wrong, puts his other club away, and grabs a 9 iron. Boom! He hits it 10 inches from the cup. He is shocked.
He says to the frog, "Wow that's amazing. You must be a lucky frog, eh?" The frog reply's "Ribbit, Lucky frog."
The man decides to take the frog with him to the next hole. "What do you think frog?" the man asks. "Ribbit, 3 wood." The guy takes out a 3 wood and Boom! Hole in one. The man is befuddled and doesn't know what to say. By the end of the day, the man golfed the best game of golf in his life and asks the frog,"OK where to next?"
The frog replies, "Ribbit. Las Vegas." They go to "Las Vegas and the guy says, "OK frog, now what?" The frog says, "Ribbit, Roulette." Upon approaching the roulette table, the man asks, " What do you think I should bet?" The frog replies, "Ribbit, $3000, black 6." Now, this is a million-to-one shot to win, but after the golf game, the man figures what the heck. Boom! Tons of cash comes sliding back across them table.
The man takes his winnings and buys the best room in the hotel. He sits the frog down and says, "Frog, I don't know how to repay you. You've won me all this money and I am forever grateful." The frog replies, "Ribbit, Kiss Me."
He figures why not, since after all the frog did for him he deserves it. With a kiss, the frog turns into a gorgeous 15-year-old girl.
"And that, your honour, is how the girl ended up in my room."
M.J.
"Louis Boyd" <bo...@apt0.sao.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:fcf78n$rdn$1...@onion.ccit.arizona.edu...
> If Alex didn't like the life he had he had the option of just sinking his
> beak into Irene P.'s hand and refusing to play her games.
He bonded to Dr.Pepperberg, he loved her, and propably
could not hurt her even if he wanted to. She no doubt loved
him too but he was also a reaserch subject to her.
This film illustrates what I am talking about. Poor little
plucker Alex tells her six times that he's got enough but
she persists at him, forcing him, even with body contact,
as she nears a big tray towards his leg in order to elicit
a response from him.
No wonder he died pre-maturely.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=R6KvPN_Wt8I
M.J.
Armand
I noticed one glaring contradiction in this article. In one place it
identifies "extroversion" as a type of emotional restriction that
increases the risk of cancer and elsewhere it identifies "isolative"
behavior as the same thing, suggesting the fudging of results to meet
a predetermined conclusion.
On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 00:07:11 -0700,
"Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Foren...@HotMail.Com"
<Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Foren...@HotMail.Com>
wrote:
>HOWEDY M.J.,
>
>On Sep 14, 2:14 am, "M.J." <M...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Is this what you did to the poor creature, Ms Irene Pepperberg?
>> Have him worked to death by your research? > 8-12 hours a day,
>> every day, of gruelling mental exercise, just to find out where the
>> limits of avian intelligence exist! No wonder Alex died so young.
>
>Could be, M.J. The scientific evidence well documents that liklihood
><{}: ~ ( >
>
>> Both you and Brandeis University should be ashamed of yourselves!
>
>Not likely, M.J. They're SCIENTISTS!:
>
>Subject: R.P.D.B. Syndrome
>
>http://www.phule.net/mirrors/unskilled-and-unaware.html
>http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf
>
>UNSKILLED AND UNAWARE OF IT: HOW DIFFICULTIES
>IN RECOGNIZING ONE'S OWN INCOMPETENCE LEAD
>TO INFLATED SELF-ASSESSMENTS
>
>Across 4 studies, the authors found that participants
>scoring in the bottom quartile... grossly overestimated
>their best performance and ability. Although their test
>scores put them in the 12th percentile, they estimated
>themselves to be in the 62nd.
>
>- Never attribute to malice that which
>can be adequately explained by stupidity.
>
>- Sufficiently advanced incompetence is
>indistinguishable from malice.
>
>- Insufficiently advanced malice is
>indistinguishable from incompetence.
>
> ------------------------
>
> SEE?
>
> R.I.P. Alex <{}: ~ ( >
>
>> Bird Brain Dies After Years of Research
>>
>> WALTHAM, Mass. (AP) - Alex, a parrot that could count to six, identify
>> colors and even express frustration with repetitive scientific trials, has
>> died after 30 years of helping researchers better understand the avian
>> brain.
>>
>> The cause of Alex's death was unknown. The African grey parrot's
>> average life span is 50 years, Brandeis University scientist Irene
>> Pepperberg said. Alex was discovered dead in his cage Friday, she
>> said, but she waited to release the news until this week so grieving
>> researchers could get over the shock and talk about it.
>>
>> "It's devastating to lose an individual you've worked with pretty much
>> every day for 30 years," Pepperberg told The Boston Globe. "Someone
>> was working with him eight to 12 hours every day of his life."
>>
>> http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jZeZSFfWilDZgoL8xPOU3KbQO2_g
>>
>> http://vvi.onstreammedia.com/cgi-bin/visearch?user=pbs-saf&template=p...
>
>Ahhh, SCHEDULING and CLICKER TRAINING!
>
>THAT MAKES DOGS GO INSANE!
>
>Clicker training increases anXXXIHOWESNESS to dangerHOWES
>levels where seizures, aggression and obsessive compulsive behaviors
>like self mutilation occure <{}: ~ ( >
>
>The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy,
>Child, Pussy, Birdy, Goat, Ferret, Monkey SpHOWES And Horsey Wizard
>*(http://www.freewebs.com/thesimplyamazingpuppywizard) ALWAYS
>recommends BREAKING the habituation of SCHEDULES and NEVER
>offering and witholding bribes and giving physical REWARDS for
>behaviors
>on accHOWENTA you can END UP DEAD over it:
>
> Death Producing Ulcers:
> "Emotional Influences On Health & Behavior"
>
> Dr. George Von Hilsheimer
>
>Illness is directly related to depression and lack of
>adjustment, particularly to a new environment (Parens,
>McConville & Kaplan, 1966).
>
>A WIDE RANGE of PSYCHOSOMATIC or CORTICOVISCERAL
>DIS-EASES was surveyed by Wittkower (1965) to demonstrate
>the enormous importance of emotional factors in general health.
>
>Interview findings of emotional material (recently experienced
>hopelessness) pryor to biological examinations correctly identified
>11 out of 19 with cervical cancer, and 25 of 32 who were cancer
>free even though psychological tests failed to discriminate these
>groups (Schmale & Iker, 1966)
>
>150 lung cancer patients showed significantly constricted
>expression of emotions. The had fewer childhood behavior
>problems, and lower neuroticism score than their cancer
>free controls. Heavy cigarette smokers who DO NOT
>INHALE are more apt to have LUNG CANCER. They, too,
>show LOWER neuroticism scores.
>
>Among heavy cigarette smokers poor emotional
>expression is as highly related to cancer as urban
>residence and is more important than a chronic cough
>or an air polluted environment (Kissen, 1966).
>
>A ten year observation of all the women who developed
>cancer in an isolated pupulation of 2,550 showed that
>they tended to be unstable or sub stable personalities
>characterized by melancholy and extraversion, especially
>marked with those of an undecided body build (Hagll,
>1966). Personality dynamics effect both the development
>of cancer and it's SITE. Cancer may result from what
>appears to be a failure to grow--somatically, behaviorally
>and psychologically (Grinker, 1966).
>
>In 109 cases leukemia and lymphoma were associated
>with a number of losses or separations and with feelings
>of sadness, anxiety, anger or hopelessness.The PRIMARY
>FACTOR seems to be the shame and hopelessness of
>running out of psychological resources (Green, 1966).
>Cervical cancer patients are less emotionally responsive,
>more isolative, and less frequently diagnosed as having
>clinical neuroses than cancer free patients.
>
>There is NO CLEAR DIFFERENCE in their FEELINGS
>and ATTITUDES toward coitus (Rotkin, Qunk, &
>Couchman, 1965).
>
>Schmidt (1966) surveyed nearly 100 studies of behaviorally
>induced DIS-EASE in animals CONFIRMING and EXTENDING
>the DATA on PEOPLE. Behaviorally induced DIS-EASES tend
>to fall into two groups;
>
>(1) Hysteriform problems, which INCLUDE HYSTERICAL
>SEIZURES and FORMS of AGGRESSION as well as
>collective panic and epilepsies;
>
>(2) organic modifications, including functional
>difficulties and lesions affecting gastro intestinal,
>cardio vascular, respiratory, sexual, endocrine, skin,
>urinary, and neuro muscular systems.
>
>It is INTERESTING, and SLIGHTLY HORRIFYING,
>to note that the ONLY SCIENTIFIC RELEVANCE
>of the standard six hour school day that I have
>been able to detect in research is that Sawrey
>and Weisz quite by accident found that six hours
>on and six hour off of "EXECUTIVE BEHAVIOR"
>in monkeys was the ONLY TIME STRUCTURE
>that INDUCED DEATH PRODUCING ULCERS.
>
> -----------------
>
> SEE?
>Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Foren...@HotMail.Com
>
>Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Foren...@HotMail.Com
>
>TheAmazing...@Mail.Com
>
>http://www.freewebs.com/thesimplyamazingpuppywizard/
DelusionalDimen...@i-love-dogs.com
"Armand" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:lojg14d18p9ags3mo...@4ax.com...
>
> I noticed one glaring contradiction in this article.
I wasn't able to open the article just now <{}:* ~ ( >
HOWEver, I'll try again later <{}'; ~ ) >
> In one place it identifies "extroversion" as a type of emotional
> restriction
Not havin a high skool education I don't know as I really
understand the meanin of the term "extroversion". I presume
it means the same or similar as extrovert, a gregariHOWES
individual / personality?
Oh, HEY?? I just remembered~! I DO know HOWE to use a dictionary:
extroversion
noun
(psychology) an extroverted disposition;
concern with what is outside the self
-------------
Not bad, for a drop HOWET, eh??
> that increases the risk of cancer
Cancers are affected by STRESSORS, like perhaps being
overly concerned with other people's business, executive
behavior schedules, diet, sunlight *(too much, too little),
disturbed sleep pattern, etc., all of which may have played
a part in Alex's laboratory environment <{}: ~ ( >
> and elsewhere it identifies "isolative" behavior as the same thing,
"Irritability, withdrawal, isolative behavior, loss of. interest
and/or pleasure in previously enjoyed activities. n. Sleep disturbance
(reduced
or increased ...www.usuhs.mil
ScienceDirect - Schizophrenia Research : Can we improve the ...
... impairment in role functioning or odd/bizarre behavior/ magical
thinking, in conjunction with socially isolative behavior/withdrawal
(see Table 2). ... linkinghub.elsevier.com
----------------
Certainly those would *(in my UNEDUCATED opinion) be greater
stressors.
Here's what we DO know, Armand: Alex was neurotic, suffered separation
anxiety and feather plucking. Those *(and ALL) OBSESSIVE COMPULSIVE
BEHAVIOR DISORDERS are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING, therefore they
can ALL BE CURED NEARLY INSTANTLY simply by DOIN EVERY THING
EXXXACTLY PRECISELY OPPOSITE of HOWE the university trained
behaviorists and professional trainers recommend.
That means they're iatrogenic, by nature.
> suggesting the fudging of results to meet a predetermined conclusion.
That's a common occurence amongst researcher, Armand
We've discussed this pryor. Dr. von Hilsheimer, in "Is
There A Science Of Behavior", wrote:
THE OPERANT FALLACY
Programs utilizing the "contingencies of reinforcement
model" proposed by Skinner (1963) ar no more well
established in research than the various dynamic
therapists. Research in four areas : 1) direct evaluation
of programmed systems for elarning; 2) reinforcement;
3) cognitive dissonance; and 4) motivation, MOST
SURELY DEMOLISH the claims of operant programers.
measure but not on another, and with no follow-up reported.
Finally, in studying means of training men to perform
a 72 action prcedure on Nike-Hercules equipment,
Cox and Boren (1965) demonstrated that the time
required to learn the procedure to critterion was NO
DIFFERENT when the actions were organized into
seven operant spans and taught in reverse order, in
natural order, or without grouping into operant spans
at all.
IT IS CLEAR that as comparisons became more
sophisticated programed instruction and other
operant teaching techniquesreveal tehemselves
as simply another prestigiHOWES FAD--somewhat
better than conventional instruction in saving time,
but certainly not providing a better or better organized
or more independently useful GRASP of KNOWLEDGE.
The IMBECILITY of some ofthe claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) report a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are reported to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS
were moved to a delayed contingency the behavoir and
learning immediately deteriorated.
Despite this, and despite the fact that there was no
evidence of cognitive association with the words, the
authors leap to the conclusion that the fact that the
boys improved in the acquisition of Norwegian words
WITHOUT REWARDS while still being given English
words WITH REWARDS suggest hat the children may
be able to acquire new behaviors on their own.
The need for this study escapes one, particularly in
view of the very well established fact that schizophrenics
condition quite readily (Mednick, 1958)
One can see the "SCIENTIFIC" PRECISION by which the
authors drop contingent reinforcements thus PROVING
that the parrot behavior was indeed caused by the schedule
and NOT by some other mystical force.
The use of Norwegian to demonstrate learning that
could not even remotely be related to previous history
is a grotesquery too bizarre to be credited. Who could
possibly doubt that this useless and probably damaging
trained seal routine depended on the psychologist's antics?
What on earth led them to believe that a schizophrenic
needs even more other-focused responsiveness?
Lovaas et al (1965) reportedthree programs carried
REWARD / PUNISHMENT
Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING
THEORY model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT.
Of curse, Skinner has never to my knowledge,
demonstrated HOWE we escape the phenomenon
that an expected reward not received is experienced
as a punishment and can produce extensive and
persistent aggression (Azrin et al, 1966).
MIMICRY, PLAY, EXPLORATION AND
THE NEED FOR DATA
Complex activities are LEARNED MORE QUICKLY
through OBSERVATION (copying, if you will) than
by trial and error with reinforcemet (Luchins,).
Observers of subjects making a first trial of a multiple
choice bolt head maze made fewer errors than the
practiced subjects in the second run, while subjects
who have been shocked for error on a first trial made
more errors than either (Rosenbaum & Hewitt, 1966).
Students will modify their beliefs more when rewarded
for the way in which they carried out arguing for a
disagreeable position (role reward), than when rewarded
for the content of the argument (Wallace, 1966).
===================
at MIGHT be
EFFECTVE, and what it IS that other people who
have authority over children ought to be doing (Mc-
Eachern and Taylor, 1967). Wherefor the child's
CONfusiHOWEN?
It is NO WONDER hat the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's
social behaviors shaping the child (Whaler,
1966). Some clinics have reported ELIMINATION
ofthe need for child THERAPY through changing
the clinical emphasis from clinical to parental
HANDLING of the child (Szrynski 1965). A large
number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases
SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents temporarily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966).
Probably the most absurd figure in Amaerican mass
media is the TEACHER (Gerbner, 1966). HOWE can
we EXXXPECT children to LEARN responsible P-HOWER
from models of IMPOTENCE? We KNOW that LEARNING
a complex ritualized social role, is facilitated by observation
of an INTELLIGIBLE MODEL much more effectively than
by trial and error with REINFORCEMENT.
Roles which are relatively arbitrary and senseless are
the most difficult to learn (Luchins, 1966). Do we make
ANY EFFORT as teachers to CORRECT the massive
impact of media?
HOWE can the ARBITRARINESS and SENSELESSNESS
of IMPOTENT ADULT MODELS be redeemed by anything
short of RELEVANCE and COMMITMENT?
As an engaging final comment on the PROFESSION
let me mention the little study by Dittman et al (1965)
tha when 15 psychotherapists and 9 professional dancers
evaluated facial and bodily expressons for effect the
dancers ere much MOORE accurate. Need we say
MOORE abHOWET the training of therapists?
---------------------
Here's more from Natural Law Enforcement:
ALL Temperament And Behavior Problems
And 90% Of ALL DIS-EASE
Are CAUSED BY Mishandling;
Therefore They Can Be EXXXTINGUISHED
NEARLY INSTANTLY
Simply By Doing
EVERY THING
EXXXXACTLY PRECISELY OPPOSITE
Of HOWE You've Been TAUGHT
By The Self-Professed EXXXPERTS
Who PROFIT From Your Hardship <{}: ~ ( >
HOWEDY FellHOWE Animal Lovers *(Including The Human Animal),
I'm Jerry Howe, Director of Research, Human And Animal
Behavior Forensic Sciences Research Laboratory. I've
got forty five years specializing in temperament and
behavior problems and protection training of mostly
giant breed working dogs, mostly Great Danes, English
Mastiffs, Giant Schnauzers, Rottweilers, Dobermans, as
well as most other breeds including toy and sporting dogs
and horses, birds, monkeys, ferrets and children *(which
are JUST LIKE monkeys).
For the past eight years I've mostly trained dogs FOR FREE,
online, thanks to V.P. Al Gore inventing the internet~!
THANKS Al~!
I am NOT a "REWARDS BASED TRAINER" nor am I a "BALANCED
TRAINER." "Rewards trainers" rely on offering and witholding
attention affection and BRIBES. "BALANCED trainers" rely on
a combination of bribery and intimidation pain fear force
and avoidance when their bribery FAILS.
I train ALL my students by using PRAISE IN ADVANCE,
installation of the come command as a conditional
reflex A La Pavlov and strict reliance on UNCONDITIONAL
LOVE, TRUST, and RESPECT and BRIEF, VARIABLY ALTERNATING,
NON PHYSICAL DISCRACTION INSTANTLY followed by PROLONGED,
NON PHYSICAL PRAISE.
So called positive reinforcement is MEANINGLESS, other
than to say, "something is ADDED or TAKEN AWAY", like a
cookie or a shock or choke or ear pinch or freedom.
Negative reinforcement means NO RESPONSE, i.e., NOT
choking, NOT shocking, NOT giving a reward, NOT locking
a dog in a box, NOT praising AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, NOT
PUNISHING~!
Classical conditioning means letting the dog figure
it out all by hisself through repetition, trial and
error, and SHEER LUCK, and rewarding apupriate behavior,
i.e., self learning; The dog rewards itself, like the
idea of leaving a dog who messes the house in the
backyard TILL IT FORGETS to MESS IN THE HOUSE - he's
classically conditioned himself to relieve himself on
the grass~! Or locking the dog in a box till he forgets
to relieve himself on the floor.
THAT'S C. C.!
So, for starters, let's clear up some common, basic
scientific misconceptions of behavior and training.
Here's the SCIENCE:
"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING THEORY
model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT. Of curse,
Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated
HOWE we escape the phenomenon that an expected
reward not received is experienced as a punishment
and can produce extensive and persistent aggression
(Azrin et al, 1966)."
IOW, emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov:
"Motivation Of The Resistance To Coercion "-- PAVLOV
"Reflexes of purpose and freedom" in the comparative
physiology of higher nervous activity, Institute of
Higher Nervous Activity and Neurophysiology, Academy
of Sciences, Moscow:
The most complex unconditioned "reflexes of aim and
freedom," discovered by I.P. Pavlov, are compared
with the "competence drive" and the "motivation of the
resistance to coercion," respectively, described by
contemporary ethologists.
On the basis of the unconditioned "reflex of purpose,"
conditioned reflexes were developed in which positive
emotions arising in connection with the perfection of
a skill, irrespective of its pragmatic significance at
a given moment, serve as the reinforcement.
The unconditioned "reflex of freedom" is regarded as a
phylogenetic precursor of the will, and its acute extinction
as the physiological mechanism of hypnosis. It was
demonstrated experimentally that the appearance of the
state of "animal hypnosis" (immobilization catatonia) in
rabbits is accompanied by the predominance of electrical
activity and heat production in the right hemisphere, i.e.,
by symptoms which are found in hypnosis in man.
Simonov PV</h4>
Publication Types:<ul><li>Review</li><li>Review,
tutorial</li></ul>PMID: 2215892, UI: 91015681</blockquote>
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0
<transitional//en">
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=2215892&am
p;form=6&amp;db=m&amp;Dopt=bNeurosciBehavPhysiol1990May-Jun;
20(3):230-5
"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes -- excitation,
inhibition and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov
Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At UofOH,
That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can Easily And
Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender Loving Care Is At The
Root Of The Scientific Management Of Doggies.
"All animals learn best through play," Lorenz.
"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) report a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are reported to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS
were moved to a delayed contingency the behavior and
learning immediately deteriorated.
Programs utilizing the "contingencies of reinforcement
model" proposed by Skinner (1963) are no more well
established in research than the various dynamic
therapists."
Research in four areas : 1) direct evaluation of
programmed systems for learning; 2) reinforcement;
3) cognitive dissonance; and 4) motivation, MOST
SURELY DEMOLISH the claims of operant programers."
Source:
B.F. Skinner: Re-evaluation of Punishment
Punishment, unfortunately traditionally overused,
actually has been proven not effective at long-
term behavioral change, and creatures will find
other ways of getting what it wants. In "Freedom
and the control of men" American Scholar, Winter
1955-56, 25, 47-65. 1956 he states:
If we no longer resort to torture in what we call
the civilized world, we nevertheless still make
extensive use of punitive techniques in both
domestic and foreign relations. And apparently for
good reasons. Nature if not God has created man
in such a way that he can be controlled punitively.
People quickly become skillful punishers (if not,
thereby, skillful controllers), whereas alternative
positive measures are not easily learned.
The need for punishment seems to have the support
of history, and alternative practices threaten the
cherished values of freedom and dignity.
Fear involved with punishment causes frustration:
with typical results loathing, hostility and apathy.
Skinner's teaching on the superiority of posittive
reinforcement's benefits for keeping desired behavior
have proved very valuable.
----------------------------
In the followin SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH STUDY, you may
substitute pronged spiked pinch or slip choke collars
for shock and add PUNISHMENT, SCOLDING, CRATING, and
witholding rewards, attention, and affection:
Psychological Effects
At issue is the question, --Do electronic training
devices elicit psychological responses?
"This section cites several research studies in which the
psychological impact of the use of electronic training devices
was analyzed. It is difficult, at best, for anyone to determine
the full psychological effect of these devices or training methods
until we can agree on exactly what constitutes a stress signal in
a domestic dog. Not only do none of the researchers agree on
what it is, but it varies from dog to dog.
It is even more difficult for humans to determine the full effect
of shock on a dog (or any animal) due to the animal's hard-wired
need to hide pain in order to survive in the wild.
Training dogs with the help of the shock collar: Short and long
term behavioral effects. (Schilder, M. & van der Borga, J. (2004).
Applied Animal Behavior Science, 85, 319-334).
The goal of this study was to determine the behavioral changes in
dogs during training using electronic training collars. Thirty-two
dogs were divided into two groups, each receiving both general
obedience and protection training.
One group was trained with shock collars and the other group
without shock collars. The dogs trained with the shock collars
displayed signs of stress: lowering of body posture, high-pitched
yelps, barks and squeals, avoidance, redirected aggression, and
tongue flicking.
It was also noted by the authors that, even during play and relaxed
walking, the group of dogs trained with shock collars continued to
show signs of stress while in the company of their handler.
The authors concluded that shock-collar training is stressful;
receiving shocks is a painful experience to dogs; and the shock
group of dogs evidently learned that the presence of their owner
(or his commands) announced the reception of shocks, even
outside of the normal training context.
They suggest that the welfare of these shocked dogs is at
stake, at least in the presence of their owners.
This study has come under considerable fire because the experience
of the handlers and dogs is not clear, and the level of shock is not
stated. With that said, it does suggest that dogs are stressed by the
experience of being shocked during training.
---------------------
Instrumental / Classical / Operant / Conditioning
CC / OC / IC / -P +P / +R -R / S R / R S
It's ALL The SAME SAME SAME SAME B.S.
<{); ~ ) >
From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com>
Subject: The Amazing Jerry's take on psychobabble
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:13:44 -0400
You might improve the learning of folk who actually
live with and train dogs to do useful things if you
excluded everyone who uses psychobabble from your lists.
I recommend to all of you who wish to taste the flavor
of sensible animal behaviorists to read THE MISBEHAVIOR
OF ORGANISMS, Breland and Breland.
This married pair of psychologists began the long trail
of highly trained animals who are symbolized by Shamu
eating a mackrel from a girl's hand instead of eating
the much more tasty pretty girl who is exactly the size
of the natural food of killer whales, seals. Yum!
The essay, by the way, is a chapter in B.F. Skinner's
summing up book, CUMULATIVE RECORD. They include a
sentence which more or less says, "unless you understand
the personal history of the particular animal, and the
history of this animal's species and group, the developmental
history of the animal, you cannot effectively train the animal.
Pigs root and hen's scratch, if you try to train hens without
scratching or pigs without scratching or pigeons without pecking,
you aren't going to have much success.
A conditional reflex is one which is learned, the original
primitive reflex occurs no matter what the history of the
animal, and is hard wired. If you train the animal to respond,
say by ringing a bell immediately before turning on a bright
light, then you've taught the animal and made his native reflex
of pupil constriction conditional upon the ringing of a bell.
Thorndyke added some terminology to this kind of training
and insisted that when you train the animal to make gross
motor responses that this learning is "instrumental", the
animal takes action and uses an instrument.
The Russian word translated as "conditional" in all other
contexts was mistranslated by Pavlov's American translator,
Horsley Gannt, as "conditioned" and so American psychology
went haring after phantasmagora.
The major theorists for the development of the language of
operant conditioning are Edward Thorndike, John Watson, and
B. F. Skinner. Their approach to behaviorism played a major
role in the development of American psychology.
They proposed that learning is the result of the application
of consequences; that is, learners begin to connect certain
responses with certain stimuli. This connection causes the
probability of the response to change (i.e., learning occurs.)
Thorndike labeled this type of learning instrumental. Using
consequences, he taught kittens to manipulate a latch (e.g.,
an instrument). Skinner renamed instrumental as "operant"
because in this learning, one is "operating" on, and is
influenced by, the environment. Where classical conditioning
illustrates S-->R learning, operant conditioning is often
viewed as R-->S learning since it is the consequence that
follows the response that influences whether the response
is likely or unlikely to occur again.
It is through operant conditioning that
voluntary responses are learned.
One should note that Russian Psychology did very well
without the operant language, and only pettifogging
university professors ought to worry about what kind
of label we attach to the learning. Pfui!
Even Skinner understood this!
And please note if you saw the original movie, THE
MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE, you saw a Chinese psychologist
who was based on Andrew Salter, CONDITIONED REFLEX
THERAPY.
Alas, Salter didn't have a Ph.D., but he basically rescued
us from the long Freudian nightmare and returned psychotherapy
to a scientific basis. Alas, the 2nd movie didn't even cite
Salter as a source. "...all the highest nervous activity, as
it manifests itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a
continual change of these three fundamental processes --
excitation, inhibition and disinhibition." Ivan P. Pavlov
What's important is, "does Shamu reliably eat
the fish and not the pretty girl?"
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
Who's Who Honoree since 1983
George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate,
Academy of Behavioral Medicine you may find my resume
in Who's Who in Science and Technology I have been listed
in Who's Who in the S & SE USA since 1982, and in the big
books, Who's Who in the USA, WW in the World, WW in Medicine
etc, and WW in Science and Technology, since that date.
These are the Marquis Publications, the "real" WW, and
you can't get yourself into them.
--------------------
In other words, Dear FellHOWE dog lovers:
A DOG Is A DOG;
As A KAT Is A KAT;
As A BIRDY Is A BIRDY;
As A GOAT Is A GOAT;
As A FERRET Is A FERRET;
As A MONKEY Is A MONKEY:
As A HORSE Is A HORSE;
As A CHILD IS A CHILD;
As A SP-HOWES Is a SP-HOWES;
As A Mass Murderer Is A Mass Murderer.
ALL Critters Only Respond In
PREDICTABLE INNATE NORMAL NATURAL
INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE Ways;
To Situations And Circumstances Of Their Environment
Which We Create For Them.
You GET The Critter You TRAINED
In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
FAILURE MEANS DEATH.
SAME SAME SAME SAME,
For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.
Damn The Descartean War of "Nature Vs Nurture."
We Teach By HOWER Words And Actions
And GET BACK What We TAUGHT.
ALL dogs and ALL temperament and behavior problems can be
quickly and EZily trained / rehabilitated for ALL handlers
NEARLY INSTANTLY simply by DOING EVERY THING EXXXACTLY
PRECISELY OPPOSITE of HOWE professional dog trainers and
university trained behaviorists recommend.
Housebreaking is INSTINCTIVE at four weeks of age. NO
critter will soil his own den UNLESS he's SICK or UNHAPPY
or not given access to a relief area:
Why Do You Reward The Dog For Being Bad?
Was:
Punish Dogs Children SP-HOWESESWith PRAISE,
Unconditional LOVE, TRUST, And RESPECT
<{) ; - ) >
Always praise the dog to show him that you affectionally
support or love him. Praising the dog has nothing to do
with what he has just done, it has to do with your
relationship with him.
"Good dog" means "I love you, dog".
If the dog is anxious, then you make certain that he
knows that he is in a safe and trusting environment.
You praise and admire him.
Correction is the opposite signal, you are my enemy,
and this results, quite naturally, in the dog behaving
aggresively - why not, you've declared that you are his
enemy.
Why does paradoxical reward work?
The dog defecates on the floor. You come up and say
"Good Dog" you love and praise him.
THE DOG KNOWS YOU LOVE HIM.
The dog defecates on the floor because he is anxious.
No wild wolf, jackal, or coyote defecates in his den.
If he defecates in his den its because a bear is outside
trying to get in and eat him.
The dog knows that it is stupid to
defecate where he eats or sleeps.
Don't you?
If the dog feels safe he'll behave as if he
is safe, no pooping on the living room floor.
Almost all maladaptive behavior is due to fear, anxiety,
expectation of disaster. Correct the situation, and the
dog behaves fluently like a ..... Dog!
Punishment deranges behavior, it is never never never appropriate.
Love the dog.
Praise is never punishme
nt, praise is like giving a
piece of steak. If you give a piece of steak to a dog
after he defecates on the floor he'll stop defecating
on the floor.
Fondly, Dr. Von
----------------
Aggression, destructive behavior, self-mutilation / paw licking,
fear of thunder, separation anxiety, car sickness, leash pulling,
ALL obsessive compulsive disorders and 90% of ALL DIS-
EASE are CAUSED BY STRESS from the use of REPRESSIVE ALPHA-DUMINANCE
IDIOCY / ABUSE, N.I.L.I.F. / offering
and witholding bribes a.k.a. clicker training, crating, surgical
sexual mutilation, and fear force and intimidation devices like
pronged collars / head halters, shock devices, aversive sprays
etc., therefore they CAN ALL BE EXXXTINGUISHED NEARLY INSTANTLY simply
be DOIN EVERY THING EXXXACTLY PRECISELY OPPOSITE of HOWE you've been
TRAINED by the EXXXPERTS who PROFIT from your hardship, like dra.
patricia mcconnel, dr. ian dunbar, dr. nicholas dodman, dr.
mark plonsky, dra. karen overall, dra. catherine houpt, karen
pryor, jean donaldson, uncle matty,cesar millan, et. al., to name a
few, and captain arthur haggerty *(R.I.P. captain [he died while SUING
me for defamation, slander, and of all things, EMOTIONAL DISTRESS~!])
<{}:*~ ( >
Of curse there's PLENTY of folks who WON'T LIKE what I
teach, as it NULIFIES THEIR LIVES. HOWEver apupriate
handling and training IS a LIFE or DEATH critteria of
ETHICAL BREEDING, MORALS and PRINCIPALS.
My feeling as a trainer is First Do No Harm. I try to
make sure I only teach and use methods that even in
the hands of a completely un-dog-savvy person could not
possibly harm a dog. THAT'S HOWE COME I'm The Sincerely
Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing, Majestic
Grand Master, Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy, Goat, Ferret,
Monkey, SpHOWES, And Horsey Wizard <{}'; ~ ) >
Here's an SAR trainer of twenty years EXXXPERIENCE:
From: Mike (m.bidd...@ns.sympatico.ca)
Subject: Re: Info. on the puppy wizard?
Date: 2004-07-18 14:27:02 PST
> > Oh, and did I mention his methods work, ya nuff said.
> > Mike
> Ok Mike which part worked for you?
It helped clear problems from my dogs in the
field using the can penny distraction technique.
Works like a charm.
My dogs get distracted easy from their jobs ie,
retrieving or training to find lost people, oh did
I mention that I am a Search and Rescue Team
Leader.
Sorry that slipped my mind.
I have read volumes of training books and don't
know where people get that Jerry copied others
work as I have NEVER come across his methods
before. I would like to see proof.
Just like Jerry outlined I eliminated problems one
at at time as they arose. I used to try and train to
the way I wanted them but this is backward, you
train out the problems leaving what you want left over.
Funny part is the second dog w
ho had the same
problems as the other didn't need correcting for
some of his habits after I cleared it from the first
dog.
Seemed he learned through osmosis.
Nice side benefit there.
It nearly came to giving them up to a 3rd party
trainer as they were not performing well. The
VAST majority of working dog trainers are
agressive in their actions with the dogs.
I tried it and it didn't work and guess what I
was at my "Whits End" then someone I new
turned me onto Jerry and the rest is history.
I referred friends and families to Jerry's manual
and all have had great results. Starting puppies
out on the distraction technique is especially
good because they never develop the habit.
I had my sisters dog healing, sitting and down
stay reliably at 8-9 weeks. The first night home
following Jerrys advice we ditched the crate and
put the pup on the floor beside the bed and after
2 whimpers NOT A SOUND OUT OF THAT DOG
FOR 6 HRS! first night, that has never happened
in all my days.
Sorry, the man understands dogs its that simple.
Mike
-------------
Here's a professional dog trainer of thirty years experience:
From: BNTDO...@aol.com
To: jho...@bellsouth.net
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 2:22 PM
Subject: Update
Hi Jerry,
Just an update to let you know how things are going.
Hunter is doing really great thanks to you and your
training manual.
I cancelled the appointment with the new vet to get
him re-evaluated for aggression. all weekend long I
had kids run by the fence to try and make him bark.
He didn't!
Tonight we are going to PetsMart to work on his
dog aggression but even that is going good for him.
I have less and less of a problem with him in my
vehicle. He doesn't try so hard to protect
it from the four wheeled monsters that go by.
I think soon I'll be able to leave his window open when
we go down the road and he won't try to jump out at
the cars that go by.
I have shared the manual with several dog owners
that I know and even a group of dog trainers.
Thank you again.
Kay
From: "Jerry Howe" <jho...@bellsouth.net>
To: <BNTDO...@aol.com>
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: Update
Have your vet call me if he's interested in behavior.
XXX/OOO. Jerry.
---------------
From: BNTDO...@aol.com
To: jho...@bellsouth.net
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: THANKS ALISON! - "Owners Should Always
Be Given The Cold, Hard Facts: They Should NEVER FEEL
GUILTY For Having An Aggressive Dog Euthanized."
Dear Jerry,
It's Kay here. I don't know who these people are that
maligning you and your training ma
nual but tell them
from me that it does work.
Hunter is just doing so well even the people who advocated
putting him down are impressed with him.
I even started using it with the neighbor's dog. I went over
there to help her cut his nails. She started yelling at him
for growling at me. I told her to tell him what a good boy he
is instead. Lo and behold he stopped growling and I could
do his nails.
All 4 feet.
My dog Hunter was trained with the old jerk and pull method
and my other dog was trained with treats. Hunter has gotten
his enthusiasm back for his training and I couldn't be more
pleased.
He even tried to kiss a child the other day.
Major break through.
This is the dog that a few months ago tried to eat the kids
through the fence. I can now take him in the car with me
again without him trying to chase cars through the windshield.
So Jerry tell these people that the first rule of dog training
is Do No Harm.
The 2nd rule is whatever works without breaking the first
rule.
Aggressive dogs don't need to be put down. Hunter was
diagnosed aggressive and he is going to stay alive and by my
side where he
belongs.
Thank you so much.
Kay
-----------------
From: jho...@bellsouth.net (The Puppy Wizard)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 06:07:52 -0000
Subject: "Your Method Takes Positive Training To The Next Level
And Should Really Be Used By All Tainers Who Call Themselves
Trainers," Kay Pierce.
From: <BNTDO...@aol.com>
To: <jho...@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: Wits end Training
Jerry,
I started Hunter on his training using your manual
and training method. What a marked difference in
just a few hours.
I had him in my van and just using the sound with
his remote trainer and telling him he's a good dog
when he started looking like he was going to bark
at a car worked great.
He only barked 2 or 3 times. Then I took him to a
spot that we had used years ago to train, Jerry I
have hope that I can have my happy dog back soon.
And not this tense unhappy creature I live with now.
He was so happy today. I am looking forward to
getting the machine so that he can stay that way.
Thank you,
Kay Pierce
- -------------------
From: <BNTDO...@aol.com>
To: <jho...@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 7:54 PM
Subject: Making Progress
Hello Jerry,
Hunter and I started working the recall and family
pack exercise today. On leash and in the house
he has a perfect recall.
And I think he really started to relax and enjoy
himself I swear he was laughing.
I had taught him to go to the heel position when he
comes to me years ago. And over the past few months
I have had to tell him to go there. Today he flew into
the heel position each and every time without me saying
a word to him about it.
He has never bounced like that before.
I trained him using conventional methods with a choker and
pinch collar. Over the past few days we have been using his
regular collar. I can tell that he enjoys it more.
As I mentioned before I am a dog trainer and when I trained
my latest dog I used all positive reinforcements techniques.
When I trained for that I had been amazed at the results.
Your method takes positive training to the next level and
should really be used by all trainers who call themselves
trainers.
My Hunter is concentrating on me and not on the treat he
thinks he wants. My other dog wants treats before she'll
do anything.
As soon as I get Hunter straightened out she's next.
Thank you so much,
Kay Pierce
------------------
From: <BNTDO...@aol.com>
To: <jho...@bellsouth.net>
Cc: <HullCr...@aol.com>; <britp...@yahoo.com>;
<cort...@thefelixfamily.com>;
<jaml...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 6:50 PM
Subject: Head Hunter
Dear Jerry,
Just thought I would write to let you know how
well Hunter is doing. He had been trained using
the conventional methods for obedience. He had
gotten used to a choker and a pinch collar.
Alot of pain and a lot of jerking around. I had also
tried using positive reinforcement methods that I
had been trained in. He was so busy looking for
the treat that he didn't really want to work.
So I went back to using the pinch collar on him
and also a gentle leader when we were in public.
Slowly by degrees his behavior got worse and
he did deserve his reputation as a vicious dog.
The vet had recommended that he be put down.
I was in a panic when I found your web site.
Thanks! He is now the happy dog that I first
started out with 5 years ago. I am a professional
trainer and it was distressing to me that I could not
help my own dog. I had been told that some dogs
don't respond to any kind of training and that a
vicious dog can never be trusted again.
I disagree!
Hunter is a sight hound and now I can take him
with me and he doesn't chase cars as much
anymore which is one of his main problems.
We are working on the dog aggression thing.
And I am confident that will be successful too.
I also have your BIOSOUND machine and that
too is working good. I know of several rescue
groups that would benefit from it.
This is rather long I know but it comes from the
heart. My Head Hunter Green and I have together
along time and have been through so much together.
Thank you for helping me save his life.
Kay Pierce
--------------------
From: <Caninesanctu...@aol.com>
To: <BNTDO...@aol.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 2:49 PM
Subject: Jerry the jerk howe
Kay if you only knew what a jerk howe is it's either
his way or your wrong no matter what training method
you use. In a post re: adopting a shelter dog he
stated "fu*k Buster" if you want I can refer you to the
post.
He's nothing but a blowhard and if he was closer I
would pay him a visit. He used your post from July
in his rebuttal
Bob Garrett
From: BNTDO...@aol.com
To: Caninesanctu...@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: Jerry the jerk howe
I have to strongly disagree that Jerry is a jerk. I am a
dog trainer and I have been for almost 30 years. I
believe strongly in positive reinforcement. My youngest
was trained using treats and praise.
My oldest how ever was not trained th
at way I am ashamed
to say. The result a very dangerous dog. He has problems
with barrier and dominance aggression. A year ago he put
a hole in my leg that took weeks to heal.
When the vet and all of my friends advocated putting him
down I found Jerry's website. I was looking for a natural
way to calm my dog and train him all over again as well.
You say Jerry is a jerk well I have talked to him on the
phone and consulted him about his training methods.
I really grilled him before I even considered using his
methods.
He loves dogs. Using his methods my Head Hunter is
now a very sweet dog. I get kisses instead of growls.
When he growls or even looks like he is going to bark
I tell him what a good dog he is and right away he shuts
up, looks at me like I'm nuts. But doesn't try to eat anyone.
I am happy to say that the vet thinks I have him on major
drugs. I don't! I still use a muzzle on him when I have to
take him to iffy places. But hey, I know he is now a sugar.
And the most important thing he is happy again.
It's a free country and you are entitled to your opinion. I
have mine.
Sincerely
Kay
---------------------
Here's a professional trainer of 33 years experience.
"Just Want To Second Jerry's Method For
Dealing With This (Destructive Separation
Anxiety). I've Suggested It To Quite A Few
Clients Now And It's Worked 'EVERY TIME
The Very First Time' - Marilyn.
Subject: To Jerry
1 From: MarilynRammell
Date: Tues, Aug 3 1999 3:00 am
Email: "MarilynRammell" <marilynramm...@hotmail.com>
Hello Jerry,
A client of mine asked to say a 'big thank you' to you.
They have a 8 month spaniel that they were about to get
rid of.
In fact they had put her into kennels for a few day while
they 'thought it through'. They rang me the day before
they were due to collect her.
She had wrecked their home - everytime they left her she
destroyed something else. The walls, the cabinets, the
carpets, table legs, chair legs, - anything and everything.
They collected her and brought her to me. I gave them some
routine training exercises, and also I wrote out your advice
(I will say at this point that I was not sure
about it at all,
and felt a little embarrassed - it was the advice about the
'toy dog that gets the praise for not making a mess'.
Anyway, this was 11 days ago and I heard nothing. Yesterday
they turned up at the new Monday evening class. They were
absolutely delighted.
They told me that after just one attempt, (your toy suggestion)
she 'stopped all the destruction'. They were in tear of happiness
while telling me.
Thank you Jerry.
Respectfully,
Marilyn
----------------
From: Marilyn Rammell (marilynramm...@hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Separation anxiety (?) help needed!
Date: 1999/10/13
Hi Steve,
Just want to second Jerry's method for dealing with this -
I've suggested it to quite a few clients now and it's worked
'every' time.
It sounds a little 'amusing' I agree, but it really works.
Two of the occasions it's worked have been when the
owners were almost at the point of giving up (one had
actually put their dog into kennels for a few days so
that they could re-decorate the demolition done by the dog).
They rang me while the dog was still in kennels and were
not yet decided whether to collect the dog or not.
The very first time they tried Jerry's method, it worked.
Best of luck,
Marilyn Rammell
--------------------
ALL Temperament And Behavior Problems Are
CAUSED BY MISHANDLING
"The day may come when the rest of the animal creation
may acquire those rights
which never could have been withholden from them
but by the hand of tyranny.
The question is not can they REASON,
nor can they TALK,
but can they SUFFER?" -
- Jeremy Bentham
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised
for the good of its victims,
may be the most oppressive.
Those who torment us for our own good
will torment us without end,
for they do so with the approval of
their own conscience." -
- C.S. Lewis.
"Death is better, a milder fate than tyranny",
Aeschylus (525BC-456BC),
Agamemnon.
"If you talk with the animals, they will talk with you
and you will know each other.
If you do not talk to them, you will not know them,
and what you do not know you will fear.
What one fears, one destroys."
Chief Dan George
All truth passes through three stages.
First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
-Arthur Schopenhauer
"Thank you for fighting the fine fight--
even tho it's a hopeless task,
in this system of things.
As long as man is ruling man,
there will be animals (and humans!)
abused and neglected. :-(
Your student," Juanita.
"If you've got them by the balls
their hearts and minds
will follow,"
John Wayne.
ANY QUESTIONS, People?
"Ye shall know the truth,
and the truth shall make you mad." -
~Aldous Huxley.
"Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens!"
"Against stupidity the Gods themselves contend in vain!"
-Friedrich Schiller.
INDEEDY.
AND THAT'S HOWE COME THEY GOT ME NHOWE!
In Love And Light,
I Remain Respectfully, Humbly Yours,
The WORLD'S CRUELEST Trainer,
Jerry Howe,
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
A-M-A-Z-I-N-G
M-A-J-E-S-T-I-C
G-R-A-N-D M-A-S-T-E-R
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy, Ferret, Goat, Monkey
SpHOWES And Horsey Wizard <{) ;~ ) >
HOWE MAY I SERVE YOU <{}; ~ ) >
Sincerely,
Jerry Howe,
Director of Research,
Human And Animal Behavior
Forensic Sciences Research Laboratory,
BIOSOUND Scientific,
Director of Training,
Wits' End Dog Training
1611 24th St
Orlando, FL 32805
Phone: 1-407-425-5092 (Call ANY TIME)
http://www.freewebs.com/thesimplyamazingpuppywizard
E-mail:
Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory
@HotMail.Com
Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory
@HotMail.Com
TheAmazingPuppyWizard @Mail.Com
The_800_Pound_Gorilla_In_The_R...@HotMail.Com
DelusionalDimen...@i-love-dogs.com
"Hunter" <airstrea...@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:6tqg14hlf2rrmc938...@4ax.com...
> This off topic thread has been worked to death.
>
> Perhaps a bird site would enjoy it.
>
> Hunter
You wanna see "worked to death?":
leansnslobbers.proboards92.com
I've been reading a few posts on your forum...
looks like you've got some EXXXCELLENT advice:
There comes a time when one must admit defeat. I am not
saying I think you should, only that it is ok if you do.
Mary.
--------------
I don't know what else to do to keep them ALL safe when I
cannot be here to referee. I work the next 5 straight days.
I am afraid Cheval's last week on earth will not be able to
be the idyllic week of unfettered love and enjoyment I wish
it could be.
My heart is dying in a wordless scream of agony.
---------------
Something is amiss, something that we can't fix, and he will
go knowing how much at least two people on this earth love
him, no matter what his history.
Love you guys, and I'm so, so sorry.
------------------
Truly a bummer! I believe the humane thing to do is let him
go. IMHO dogs like Cheval know when things are wrong. (
((Hugs)))
J. I don't know anyone who has the trials you have
except my DD Jessica. Maybe it's the name!XO Ida
-----------------
Hugs J, and I agree with what Mary said.
------------------
I can't even explain how I am feeling really, I know there are
some people that can understand or have had this experience.
This is a horrible feeling. I'm not sure what to do- either
rehome or put him down So upset and feel like the worst owner
in the world right now. I do think that there is nothing I
could have done to change this- we have done training/socialing
from the begining, but somewhere something must have gone wrong
with him.
---------------
George is your dog and as hard as it will be.. you'll have
to do what is best for your family first. A dog like this
may be "contained" if there were only adults around and not
kids who forget to close gates and doors.
I'm sorry you're going thru this but don't beat yourself up
about it..some dogs are just not wired right and nothing can
change that. Don't let any one "guilt trip" you into keeping
a dog you can't trust.
Good Luck.
Dee
----------------
zo, I've been where you are at, and it aint easy. You are doing everything
you know to do. That can't be said for everyone who has an aggresive dog. We
had to rehome our fawn(after working with him for 9mo or so) for this very
reason.
-------------
I can be of no substantial help as I luckily have never had those issues
with a pet. However, I can lend my support and empathy. I can understand how
helpless and afraid you feel about the pet you love potentially harming
someone. You've gotten some wonderful advice. I know you will try everything
possible before making any drastic decisions. However, if you ultimately
need to, then I know you will have the courage to do so without blaming
yourself in any way.
-------------
I TOTALLY know what you are going through. You know that. You got to do what
you have to do, its your family and nobody elses. I was able to muzzle train
frank inside a week with peanut butter...Django hates it though because I
got the metal one.
----------------
Shannon is also very well aware that my position is that not all dogs are
able to be helped and should be humanely released from the demons that
plague them(be it medical or genetic or environment - abuse etc. or any
combination thereof)
Gwen 20+ YEARS in Rescue - Rehabilitation - Therapy - Training -
Behavouralist - Consulting - Humane Education
-------------
If its not thyroid or tumor etc...medical hes not wired right and either way
hes a loaded gun and it can be dangerous.I truely beleive some people ruin
dogs but some arent right its either medical or not all their anyway.In past
20 or more years Ive heard of many nightmares and I personaly wont risk it
these dogs are too large and when children are involved or exposed to them I
WONT chance it too much can happen in an instant and then its too late.So
sorry your having to go through this.They cant all be saved and your the
only one that knows what hes doing and how hes acting etc... xceldanes
-------------
Carol Ann pointed out last night to focus as much as I can on the fact that
I am actually protecting him, from the fear, agony, pain... of waiting until
he truly snaps entirely and begins to know those things.
I don't want him to have to go through what must have been so terrifying for
Izzy, when she completely lost control.
I don't know what I would do without you all.
--------------------
WE HAVE LIT THE CANDLES IN MEMORY OF
CHEVAL AND OSCAR RIP SWEET BOYS :+(
==========================
Most of all. have FUN with your new puppy, and take lots of pictures because
they grow up so fast it will be hard to remember he was once only 15 inches
tall AND YOU MURDERED IT~!