should I feed pellets
Rob
should I feed pellets
L. Shaw
Best bet is to look back over recent threads on this. Some of the
debate went 'on a bit' & no-one probably wants to get that started
again(I sure don't). There are two basic camps; those that say pellets
are boring for your bird, & those that say they are the best way of
definite nutrition.
Just make sure your bird is on a good healthy diet either way & keep an
eye on weight regularly. If you feed pellets you don't have to give 100%
pellets & your bird can enjoy all the fruits/veg/treats as any seed fed
bird would. Pellets or Seed are designed to be the 'staple' of the birds
diet.
My grey is on 'Pretty Bird African Special' & absolutely loves it.
Lee
Feel free to post me 'off group' if you want my full opinion.
Mary
diet. The general concensus of opinion is that *neither* should be the
*only* food fed to the bird. Bird's need a well-balanced diet just as
humans do. And, although, the pellet mfg. will claim that no other food is
needed, it's best to supplement with fruits, veggies and other nutritious
food.
--
Mary
Sparky's Homepage is the place to go if you want to learn about the grey
Congo! "www.neta.com/~tarnold/sparky.html"
"She was not quite what I would call refined,
"She was not quite what I would call unrefined,
"She was the kind of person that keeps a parrot."
Mark Twain
L. Shaw <lee....@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:3805969E...@cwcom.net...
John or Bev
When you say a good seed mixture, what defines a 'good' seed mix?
There are so many on the market how do we know which is good and which
isn't? How many parts seed would you put with pellets and fruit and
veg? Thanks in advance.
Bev
Mary
When feeding African greys, you should get a seed mix that is labeled for
large hookbills. It will contain the types of seeds that larger birds can
easily crack and eat. Also, you should buy from a retailer that you know
keeps his seed fresh. Store seeds in a cool, dry place; the freezer is
ideal, especially if you purchase large quantities.
We mix pellets into the seed mixture -- about 1/3 pellets. I clipped the
following "well-balanced" diet quite a while back but didn't make reference
to the source. You will notice that the % for fruits and veggies is quite
small.
60% grains (seed mixture, cooked brown rice, oats & oatmeal, dry corn,
barley, wheat & whole grain bread)
10% veggies (most valuable are dark green & leafy & dark yellow & high in
Vit A, such as beets, broccoli, endive, escarole, carrots, parsley, pumpkin,
winter squash & sweet potatoes)
5% fruits (those high in Vit A most desirable, such as papaya, cantaloupe &
apricots. Oranges are a good source of calcium)
25% protein (mature legumes such as cooked beans (soy, navy, kidney, mung,
lentile or mature peas are preferred). Peanuts are high in fat and should
be limited; likewise with sunflower seeds. Small amounts of tuna, fish,
beef, chicken & eggs can be offered on occasion)
--
Mary
Sparky's Homepage is the place to go if you want to learn about the grey
Congo! "www.neta.com/~tarnold/sparky.html"
"She was not quite what I would call refined,
"She was not quite what I would call unrefined,
"She was the kind of person that keeps a parrot."
Mark Twain
John or Bev <B...@hecky.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:gWsHOJ6fPY1WvY...@4ax.com...
Lin Ish
you make transition your bird slowly. Cold turkey is dangerous. Birds
have starved to death because they didn't recognize thierfood.
when the ways of friends converge the whole world loos like home for an
hour.
Lin Ish
Rob
<8E5E613A3bobr...@news.flash.net>:
>Answer:
>should I feed pellets
Look at this for pellet info.
http://www.parrothouse.com/pellets2.html
Rob
L. Shaw
What do you think of the article & writer?
Lee
Mary
--
Mary
Sparky's Homepage is the place to go if you want to learn about the grey Congo! "www.neta.com/~tarnold/sparky.html"
"She was not quite what I would call unrefined,
"She was the kind of person that keeps a parrot."
Mark Twain
L. Shaw <lee....@cwcom.net> wrote in message news:380CF965...@cwcom.net...
L. Shaw
Can't get rid of this blue from your post Mary!!??!! I just 'reply to
group' ed it & I get the blue.
Again, I don't want to get going on this debate like before, but will
reply to this article only & not get into any of the other opinions...
in danger of a 'Mr. Expert' jibe again<g>.
I think her knowledge of the actual making of pellets & what's in them
is in error by the looks of the article(or my reading of it). Seems she
has the view that pellets are totally 'synthetic'. She uses the term
'synthetic' liberally in reference to the vitamin content of pellets vs.
'naturally' obtained vitamins. I'd like to read her article on calcium
as calcium as an additive in water etc. is one that a lot of RECONGNIZED
experts(which she isn't) scorn upon. There is a good article about some
of this in this issue of Parrots in E.B. Cravens slot.
First: Pellets are not synthetic. I worked for the Feed Research Dept.
of the biggest poultry supplier on the W.Coast of U.S. for 5yrs &
specifically at the mill that made all the test feed for that companies
test birds for the last year. In a ton of feed you would have about
3-6lbs of 'micro-ingredients'. Out of a ton of feed(pellets) for
chickens for example about 1,000lbs would be cornmeal...plain &
simple...most of the protein would come from fishmeal or meat&bone meal.
Every chicken/turkey you eat(unless you by 'freerange') is raised on a
pellet diet...wonder why? Her opinion in the article is that vitamins
etc. from pellets can't be received by the body as vitamins from food (I
stopped laughing after about 20mins)...so, how is it that pellet fed
poultry grows quicker?
There is very little left to learn about bird nutrition. The tests that
we did were mainly colour etc. The base of every pellet feed was almost
identical for every test....just slight 'tweaking' here & there or
testing new products on the market.
I disagree with her opinion that nothing synthetic can be as good or
accepted by the body as something from 'natural' food....very, very few
nutritionists would agree with that assumption. Another common argument
down the same lines is about the vitamin content of seeds that have been
sitting in a bag for months verse ones that are still 'living' etc.
She would do well to read the ingredient list of the pellet formulas.
The vast majority of avian vets prefer pellets....do you think they are
ignorant to the things she tries to point to in this article? Do you
think the pellet companies didn't think of any of these things or that
the pellets haven't been tested? Do you think that the pellets formulas
weren't produced by nutritionists? It is absurd. I'm not a Dr. of
nutrition, but in the F. R. dept. that I worked for we had two of
them(Sun Kim & Alfonso Mirales).....every company does.. including
Pretty Bird, Zupreem, Harrisons etc...etc..
Print & take the article to your avian vet or a nutritionist & see what
the reaction is.
Lee
L. Shaw
Here is a couple of Q&A from an article in the current issue(30) of Parrots here in the U.K.(pg.44,45). It is E.B.Cravens(pellet advocate) interviewing Dr. Brian Speer of The Medical Centre for Birds, Oakley, California.
Most of the Q&A is about cleaning birds environment; interesting thoughts on cleaners etc. But there are a few nutritional questions:
Q:(Cravens): Is it true that many bird keepers, in an attempt to give
optimum nutrition to their flock, are in fact over-vitaminising their birds?
A:(Speer): Well, the flip side is also true: malnourished birds, obese
birds. Still, over-use of vitamins is on the rise - there's a rise in cases
of vitamin A toxicity & an excess of D3 in pelleted foods or powders,
especially for juvenile birds.
-Interesting points there, especially the thought about juvenile birds. But obviously it shows too that vitamins in pellets are taken into the bird very well indeed.
Q: What about vitamins added to drinking water?
A: Kinda silly, I'd say. It does not make much sense as there is so
much waste. The water soluble vitamins biodegrade & bacteria growth
in the water can be promoted. The fat soluble vitamins do not dissolve.
But old habits change slowly, I guess.
Q: Do you see any connection between mega-nutritional formulas given
to domestic parrots & the extremely early sexual maturity we are now
seeing in some species?
A: Yes, but not in the way you are alluding to. We are seeing
healthier birds; we are beating mother nature, just like the average
height of a citizen at the turn of the century was less than now.
Dr. Speer's & Craven's views of vitamins in pellets are very different from the lady that wrote the article we were refered to. I'd really like someone to take that article to their avian vet, or even to their Doctor next visit. Go to your supermarket & see the shelves lined w/vitamins....30yrs ago we saw the first real multi-vitamins....now there's everything & too many brands of each to keep up with. Do you think if the article Rob referes to had any scientific base that would be the case? Don't you think they would have address those things out a long time ago? We see vitamin fortified cereals, foods etc. besides these suppliments...would be kind of ridiculous if that article was correct huh? I had contact with PURINA over in the U.S. too(Turlock, Ca.)...how long have they been making dry dog chow etc. over there?...think no-one would have figured out the vitamins added to the stuff was of no use by now? 30yrs ago I'm sure there were many that had those views about vitamins.....not today though. Only explanation I can think of is the 'anti-pellet' for pets agenda.
I site this from her first paragraph as a good insight into her view: "We are told that all the essential nutrients our birds will ever need are to be found in a bag or canister and by simply pouring these crunchy morsels into our birds' feed bowl we have done our job as good bird owners".
She obviously doesn't like 'bags or canisters' or 'crunchy morsels'
She writes: We are also told – "Don't feed too many fresh foods like fruits and vegetables, they are not nearly as healthy as a perfectly balanced pelleted feed and may upset its delicate balance."
Notice she isn't quoting anyone here with her quote marks!?!? She has a very wrong view of pellet diets...especially the "& may upset it's delicate balance". Blatant propaganda there...nothing less.
She notes 'trace-elements' that are needed for certain vitamins to be absorbed(especially C, Ds, Bs). These are put into pellet formulas. A ton of feed for chickens has about .5lbs of 'trace-minerals' on average. Again...I've been there...they are in there. Just read the back of Pretty Bird for instance...the list of Vits....you'll notice they've actually thought about these things & put all the stuff in there for the D etc. to work.
Lee
malc
> Again, I don't want to get going on this debate like before, but will
> reply to this article only & not get into any of the other opinions...
> in danger of a 'Mr. Expert' jibe again<g>.
>
fish and blood meal is used in them ?
Malc
Mary
What 'blue' are you talking about???
Alicia is a very intelligent gal with a PhD in nutrition. She is into
holistic med. and believes in feeding only organically grown foods -- to her
family and her birds. I don't have the background that she does; nor do I
have the background that you do; so I really can't intelligently comment of
much of her views, nor your. With regard to your statement about avian vets
recommending pellets. Don't you think they do so because they are looking
at the larger picture. Most people don't have the time, nor the
inclination, to feed a nutritionally well-balanced diet to their pets. A
pelleted diet takes all the guess-work out of it as it supposedly contains
everything needed. I've had several avian vets tell me this very thing. If
you don't have the time and if you're not sure that your bird is eating
enough of the proper nutrients, then feed more pellets. It's the easy, lazy
way out. Alicia doesn't believe in the easy, lazy way out. The mash diet
she prepares for her flock is a real back-breaker. I don't go the organic,
holistic route so I haven't been 'brainwashed' by her, as you are no doubt
thinking. But, I do know she's very intelligent, she *is* a recognized
expert and her articles have been published by large magazines, such as Bird
Talk.
As an afterthought: Are the poultry growers concerned about raising chicks
that will live a long, healthy life? Or are they looking for a food that
will put meat on their bones in record time so they can go to the slaughter
house while still young and tender? The same with cattle and any other
animal grown for food? I don't believe you can compare pelletized diets for
those animals to the pelletized diets for birds.
L. Shaw <lee....@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:380F3313...@cwcom.net...
> Hi Mary, all,
>
> Can't get rid of this blue from your post Mary!!??!! I just 'reply to
> group' ed it & I get the blue.
>
> Again, I don't want to get going on this debate like before, but will
> reply to this article only & not get into any of the other opinions...
> in danger of a 'Mr. Expert' jibe again<g>.
>
Birdjayne
>and
>when you buy a bird from the breeder, they do not mention anything about
>normal foods
>and normal diets. They only recommend the pellets and I do not think there
>has
>been enough studies on the effects of pellets.
When I bought Pepsi, the breeder I bought from had her on pellets and fruits
and veggies. She gave me a printed out sheet with all the fruits and veggies
to give her. She did not just recommend pellets.
Jayne & Pepsi
L. Shaw
> What 'blue' are you talking about???
I know...it was there in my viewer as I read your post above, & when I 're'd it
it was on my reply..but not onto the group?!? Shows what an expert I am huh?<g>
> Alicia is a very intelligent gal with a PhD in nutrition. She is into
> holistic med. and believes in feeding only organically grown foods -- to her
> family and her birds.
I would have guessed something like that by some of her comments. My opinion is
that when people have strong views like that it can easily 'cloud' their
thinking toward anything that isn't 'natural' etc. & almost make them biased
before they start. She definitely doesn't like the thought of something in a bag
or dry etc. I think a lot of people view of pellets are tainted by the same.
> With regard to your statement about avian vets
> recommending pellets. Don't you think they do so because they are looking
> at the larger picture. Most people don't have the time, nor the
> inclination, to feed a nutritionally well-balanced diet to their pets. A
> pelleted diet takes all the guess-work out of it as it supposedly contains
> everything needed.
Yes, definitely. I fully agree with you there. If we could feed 'natural/fresh'
foods & know exactly what we are giving our greys in the nutrition dept. most
would do that. I know a lot of people give suppliments to their greys. I was
advised to do so by a few people. So they get fresh food etc. & sprinkle
supliments on them, or in the water. Over here the common ones are 'essentials'
on the food & calcium in the water. If we can feed pellets that we know has it
all in there, then that, for me, is better...as I said ..for me.
> I've had several avian vets tell me this very thing.
That was my point really. I was refering to the thought in her article about the
vits. in the pellets not doing any good, not being absorbable etc...like you
said, avian vets have advised you about pellets...now these vets are at all the
conventions etc. & if her veiws/thought were correct & the norm then we wouldn't
have top avian vets telling us otherwise.
> If
> you don't have the time and if you're not sure that your bird is eating
> enough of the proper nutrients, then feed more pellets.
Exactly my thoughts..I totally agree.
> It's the easy, lazy
> way out. Alicia doesn't believe in the easy, lazy way out. The mash diet
> she prepares for her flock is a real back-breaker. I don't go the organic,
> holistic route so I haven't been 'brainwashed' by her, as you are no doubt
> thinking.
I honestly don't think that Mary..I just wanted to reply to her article that Rob
referred everyone to as it is very strongly against pellets. A lot of people
read the group that are thinking/learning about greys or getting one from the
ground up. This is where I learnt & am learning so much. My feeling was that a
lot of those people would read that & be scared to death of pellets & would take
it as gospel.
> As an afterthought: Are the poultry growers concerned about raising
> chicksthat will live a long, healthy life? Or are they looking for a food
> thatwill put meat on their bones in record time so they can go to the
> slaughterhouse while still young and tender? The same with cattle and any
> otheranimal grown for food? I don't believe you can compare pelletized diets
> forthose animals to the pelletized diets for birds.
Your definitely right. A 5lb chicken that you buy took about 48days to get to
that weight!!!!..that's right...from the egg!!..even less in winter when they
eat more due to the cold. If the companies can knock 1day off of that ..imagine
the savings!!! 1day less food etc. per bird..talking millions of dollars.
Through feed research it went from close to 90day down to 48day in a matter of a
couple of decades!
My point was to refute her theories about vitamins etc. in pellets not being
received into the body, that is silly & not scientific. Please note I also put
quotes from people in there stating the worries of some of these formulas to
young birds.
The pellets in the 'farming' of poultry also contain some things that bird
pellets don't... especially large doses of anti-biotics that really pump growth
along during the 'grower' stage (17-40 days). The company I worked for was very
'moral' & even refused to use some products that were USFDA approved. We proved
they worked well, but they had some things in them that might be 'alarming' to
the public...the company didn't put them into use. I believe bird pellets have
all the vits. etc. to keep the bird ticking along at a good pace & healthy. I
wouldn't feed 100% pellets..even thought that might be best. I'm a softy & give
Caspian a lot, probably too many treats...doritos, popcorn, etc...a lot of fruit
too. I really feel confident she is getting a good diet & all the vits from the
pellets. My kids eat a lot of junk too<gg>.
I'm with you on your previous thoughts that we probably worry too much about a
lot of the things that are said about greys.
Lee
L. Shaw
> Feeding ONLY pellets is the lazy way out, I am not saying those who do not
> have the time due to real reasons are lazy. Just meaning those who do have
> the time and don't care to feed their bird properly are the "lazy" ones.
> Pellets were designed to be a complete diet. They are not meant as a suppliment
> to a normal diet, nor a fattening diet.
Definitely...they aren't a 'suppliment'..but that seems to be the idea of some..to 'feed a
few pellets' etc. to up the vitamin intake. They are meant to be the 'staple' of the diet.
Just as seeds are the 'staple' of the diet to seed fed birds. People that feed seeds give
fruit(as Mary pointed out, Greys don't need as great an amount of fruit as some ..ie.
Eclectus that should get 50% fruit) & treats in addition to the seeds...so do people that
give pellets. It would be a good survey to find out how many pellet fed birds get only
pellets...I guarantee the amount would be very few...only about the same as seed fed birds
that get only seed there would be very few.
> I just had to agree here, that the pellets are being over used by breeders and
> when you buy a bird from the breeder, they do not mention anything about normal foods
> and normal diets. They only recommend the pellets and I do not think there has
> been enough studies on the effects of pellets. Meaning, a chick weaned on pellets, then
> introduced to a normal diet (real food/veggies/seed) or vice-versa.
> I for one think pellets should be designed as a suppliment, not a whole meal!
> And thought of as just that.. a suppliment!
Then in that case they would be a poor suppliment. You would be better off giving a vit.
suppliment sprinkled on the food like many do. Those formulas actually contain greater
amounts of vits etc. than are in the pellets.
I think the only difference with most pellet feeders & seed feeders is just that = swap the
seed for pellets..then the rest of the diet w/the bird will be about the same. To me, I'd
rather feed pellets than seeds. I feed fruit & veg. etc. too.
Lee
L. Shaw
> and veggies. She gave me a printed out sheet with all the fruits and veggies
> to give her. She did not just recommend pellets.
Me too. Actually the breeder recommended the other stuff...loads of it..more than
the pellets. The birds got a dish of everything & practically at dinner with the
family as they got most of what they had. The birds were weaned onto pellets as
the staple though & I really decided that I wanted the pellets to be the main
base of the diet.
Our bird loves the pellets to death. They smell great, look great, you know what
they're getting in every bite vs. birds that only eat the sunflower/safflower out
of their seeds, or are picky in some other way that might cause a deficiency.
A good survey would be how many use suppliments of some sort & why. If you feed
pellets as 80% of the diet you don't need suppliments.
Lee
tre...@my-deja.com
this discussion. Here in England I've been having a real problem trying
to get hold of pellets, but this week I've finally tracked some down
(Harrisons) and am awaiting delivery. Because I can't get hold of this
easily (i.e. off the shelf),can any of you tell me roughly how much
your average grey would eat in, say, a week? It would help me space my
orders. Thanks in advance - Treacy. .In article
<3816EDCA...@cwcom.net>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
L. Shaw
I have the same problem w/Pretty Bird...& that's surprizing for a big place
like Leeds. I buy a large quantity from a place near Doncaster. I buy about
a 25lb bag then weight it up into 3lb zip lock bags. It seems she goes
through roughly a pound a week give or take. As with any feed for them
though there is a bit of waste..& I'm they type to chuck anything out that
I feel it getting stale too.
You can mail order from any of the companies. There will be suppliers near
you that the companies can put you in contact with. Harrisons & some others
you can get around here...funny huh?
Lee
L. Shaw
Normally the fat content of pellets will be added on at the end of the process.
When the mash has already been made into pellets..the fat is dripped on in
liquid form & allowed to literally soak in to the still hot pellet(hot from the
steam to make the mash go through the 'mold').
Most things high in protein(meat & bonemeal/ feathermeal/ bloodmeal(messy
stuff)) has a good fat content too...ie...peanuts, meat, sunflower etc....high
in protein & fat as well. Greys don't need a real high fat diet from what I
know.
Interesting: Some would cringe at one of the sources of protein into poultry
pellets. Large companies have a 'PC plant' or Protein plant. On every ranch you
have a 'bin' outside for all the culls & dead birds to go in every day. A truck
comes every day & front loads the bin into it (like a garbage truck)...those
birds are turned into liquid protein & that liquid protein is one of the sources
of protein for poultry pellets. Yum Yum for Thanksgiving you guys in the U.S.
huh?<gggg>. Only a percentage though.
Again..their aim is to pump those boys up quickly. Lots & lots of bloodmeal
too... Malc is clued up on this...pallets of the stuff everywhere in the mill.
All that stuff isn't 'synthetic' though...that's misinformation about pellets as
I said.
Lee
Paul & Belinda
tre...@my-deja.com wrote in <7v74ln$1p7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>:
>Hi All - I'm new to this newsgroup, but I was very interested to read
>this discussion. Here in England I've been having a real problem trying
>to get hold of pellets, but this week I've finally tracked some down
>(Harrisons) and am awaiting delivery. Because I can't get hold of this
>easily (i.e. off the shelf),can any of you tell me roughly how much
>your average grey would eat in, say, a week? It would help me space my
>orders. Thanks in advance - Treacy.
We moved from the US to Netherlands last January and had similar problems
getting Kaytee pellets. A visit to www.kaytee.com and a mail to them
solved our problems. They were extremely helpful and helped us locate a
local contact where we now buy 2 20lb bags (1 exact and 1 exact rainbow)
every 6 to 8 months. They even (at their expense) UPS 2nd day'd us a 2lb
can of each so we had exact to tie us over until the above shipment came
in. Now that's Customer Care with a Capital C in my book. Also, our birds
love Kaytee and thrive on it. Our grey will go through one of those 2lb
cans in 2 to 3 weeks depending on how much veggies we give him.
Take care,
--
Paul & Belinda | Cuckoo (CAG) - Rella (U2) - Baby (CC)
Visit http://members.brabant.chello.nl/~p.kolenbrander/
-------------------------------------------------------
-- Help These Parrots - http://www.iae.nl/users/nop/ --
Vita
Well, after all the discussion on pellets, I decided to get some for Tali to
try.
As Treacy has said, getting pellets in the UK is not always so easy, at
least I have not found it so.
The local vet stocked Pretty Bird, but I wanted to get some Harrisons as we
have tried Pretty Bird and Tali will not eat them.
I found an advertisement in Parrots and telephoned the people yesterday at
4-30pm.
At 8-30 am this morning a pack of Harrisons arrived at my door.
How is that for service?
I gave Tali a few, just to see what he thought of them, and he just kept
eating until they were gone:-)
He will still have his fruit and vegetables though.
Patricia.
malc
So fat is added to the mash which will already contain fat from the
bone/meat meal etc that makes two lots of fat.
a lot of pellets are made from a powder which is force fed through a tube,
much like a cake icing tube under high pressure, this also causes heat in
the process. the mash doesn't have to be wet to go through the process.
the point that I was making was that there are two types of fat mostly.
Vegetable as in nuts etc and animal fats as in meats. these are much worse
for birds than vegetable fats.
you mentioned proteins and one stood out "feather meal" which to almost
anything eating it including birds can not digest it, I.E. the pellets owls
and other birds eject after digesting the rest of it, snakes as well. It is
as you say high in protein, about 90% if my memory is right. But if you can
not digest anything it has no food value. (Seeds high in wheat gluten also
can not be digested)
Fish meals which are generally made from small fish or the remains after the
fillets for human use are removed are high in oil (fat) it is these fats
which make the pellets bind together in manufacture.
.When you usually purchase fish meals here in the Uk if it is suitable for
human use it will have fat content marked on the bag, on average 22%.
So you have several items in your pellet which are high in fat content ?
The cheaper fish meals are used as garden fertelizer, what would happen if
these types of fish meal were used for our bird feed pellets. Maybe
something which we have had in Europe from feeding animal bone and meat
meals to another animal. mad cow disease which was caused by feeding sheep
remains to cows and then onto humans.
Also poultry pellets are designed for maximum growth maximum profit short
term.
sorry but I will stick with a seed diet and plenty of fresh fruit and
veggies, but that is my opinion and after much research of feeding pellets
to fish which may have nothing at all to do with feeding an African Grey
:o)
Sorry this post was so long but i don't know a shorter way of telling it, if
anyone wants more info mail me direct if they want
Malc
L. Shaw
First remember I'm relaying pellets in poultry feed/industry..& just trying to
establish that it pellets aren't made up of synthetic as per the article & are
absorbable...that pellets are wide used basically. I've said someone in another
post along with Mary that obviously poultry companies have one thing in
mind..pumping up the meat...I also stated that bird pellets contents are
different.
> So fat is added to the mash which will already contain fat from the
> bone/meat meal etc that makes two lots of fat.
That's right...for a 'high fat' diet....for chickens/turkeys they want to give
that to. Please note another post of me clearly saying that AG's don't require a
'high fat' diet. Obviously if you but 1900lbs of meat&bone meal in a ton of feed
you would have a lot of fat.. what if you only put 80lbs Malc?..then drip of a
'cheaper' fat at the end...that's right..that's the way poultry companies
think....not 'pellet' companies.
> a lot of pellets are made from a powder which is force fed through a tube,
> much like a cake icing tube under high pressure, this also causes heat in
> the process. the mash doesn't have to be wet to go through the process.
Your wrong there...we had an ear for the pellet machine & knew the noise that
meant it had bunged up because there wasn't enough steam. If your making giant
pellets for cow.. fine..no steam needed...put small diameter pellets for poultry
sure does.
> the point that I was making was that there are two types of fat mostly.
> Vegetable as in nuts etc and animal fats as in meats. these are much worse
> for birds than vegetable fats.
AGs do feed on carrion in the wild if I'm not mistaken(I know...not 100%
etc)..but they do get some animal fat. The nutritionist that work for these
companies do understand all this too Malc...& they actually think about this &
get the percentages right...I guarantee you.
> you mentioned proteins and one stood out "feather meal" which to almost
> anything eating it including birds can not digest it, I.E. the pellets owls
> and other birds eject after digesting the rest of it, snakes as well. It is
> as you say high in protein, about 90% if my memory is right. But if you can
> not digest anything it has no food value. (Seeds high in wheat gluten also
> can not be digested)
Malc...you dont' get 'feathers' & mix it in..thus the term 'feathermeal' that is
in a very digestible state. It's like me stating you can't digest iron or some
other mineral..the way it's in vits etc you can of course.
> Fish meals which are generally made from small fish or the remains after the
> fillets for human use are removed are high in oil (fat) it is these fats
> which make the pellets bind together in manufacture.
I suppose if you have 50% fishmeal for some kind of feed it might.
Try this one for size ...we did tests where we made pellets for cows: 50%
chicken manuer & 50% Grape Pomiece!!!(well..some trace mins too)...yep..in the
good old U.S. of A. For those of you in the U.S. we are having a big fight
w/France about that kind of thing right now..they are feeding their cows
human/etc. 'waste'...guess what..the European FDA type people say it's o.k.!!
> .When you usually purchase fish meals here in the Uk if it is suitable for
> human use it will have fat content marked on the bag, on average 22%.
> So you have several items in your pellet which are high in fat content ?
Yep...it's called "Formulating": You start out with the fat/protein/vit. needs
of a given subject..then "Formulate" a suitable feed with the ingredients on
hand...that means you use percentages of each feed. A lot of it is commons sense
I guess Malc. We must not think that the professionals at the pellet companies
or Avian Vets etc. have as much of it as we do.
> The cheaper fish meals are used as garden fertelizer, what would happen if
> these types of fish meal were used for our bird feed pellets.
At a high percentage you've already said it..we might as well use it for our
lawn<g>..put at a percentage to up the protein..it's great stuff.Re: Mad Cows:
Well we could call it 'Mad Greys Disease'<g>.
> Also poultry pellets are designed for maximum growth maximum profit short
> term.
Already established...I guess I have to spell everything out 10x huh? My point
is referring to the article trying to state that pellets are junk & not
absorbable into the birds system.. that they are basically 'synthetic'...nothing
else Malc.
So..my point was: why do poultry companies etc. use pellets if they don't work?
> sorry but I will stick with a seed diet and plenty of fresh fruit and
> veggies, but that is my opinion and after much research of feeding pellets
> to fish which may have nothing at all to do with feeding an African Grey
That's your choice & I hope all of us will make a choice that we are each
comfortable with based upon what we each have read/learned from a number of
sources. And, again, lets all remember that there is a lot more to our
relationships w/out Greys that feed... just feed a good healthy diet either way
& gain advise from you own Avian vet.
Lee
L. Shaw
Pretty Bird were the same...I emailed them & got I got a phone call the next
day from them!
Lee
Grey Feathers
african grey. I have fairly small hands, and it would equate to about 2/3
of a small cup (not a mug) I guess. She doesn't eat all of them, since she
prefers the larger pellet, and there is inevitably a bit of wastage. But I
figure, if anything happened to me (God forbid) - she wouldn't run out of
food by the end of the day, and has enough to last through to the next day.
I also mix in about a desertspoon of seed, and fresh veggies and fruit too.
The pellets still make up the staple part of the diet, with the rest as
'dressing' on the top!
Harrisons is very expensive, so you might be better putting smaller amounts
in. I think they include a guide with them as to how much a bird eats -
just check the bowl frequently the first week or so to make sure he doesn't
run out of them. Oh, and it can take a while to change them over onto
pellets or a different brand. Make sure he is eating while you try and
change him over!
Luckily our new grey Cadbury seems to quite enjoy pellets, I suspect he
thinks they are in the same leage as crackers etc - he seems to be a junk
food addict. He watched my other half eat one, and dove straight in to try
his own :-)
--
Louisa
Contact me on ICQ: 3918392
Fax: (UK) 0870 056 1322
(International) +44 870 056 1322
***NOTE*** website updated - please alter bookmarks as below.
Homepage: http://www.psycho-pets.demon.co.uk/index.html
Training your bird for a harness:
http://www.psycho-pets.demon.co.uk/html/training.htm
[Bringer of Peace] and [Book of Ways] stories archived at
http://www.psycho-pets.demon.co.uk/html/dark_imaginings.html
malc
> Hi Malc.
>
> Your wrong there...we had an ear for the pellet machine
we obviously use a different machine here in the UK, just this morning i
watched pellets being produced for animal feed with a diameter of 3mm (1/8
inch) with pressure binding it, no steam what so ever. this machine will
make pellets right up to 20mm including cow and pig pellets
>
> Malc...you dont' get 'feathers' & mix it in..thus the term 'feathermeal'
that is
> in a very digestible state
Feather meal is made by grinding the complete feather down. How do you make
these digestible?Which is a similar process to meat/ bone meals but heat is
used to take away some of the fat content.in these to make them more easily
storable.
>
> I suppose if you have 50% fishmeal for some kind of feed it might.
I would guess that most of the ingredients have a high fat content, add all
of these together and see what you get.
>
> Try this one for size ...we did tests where we made pellets for cows:
50%
> chicken manuer & 50% Grape Pomiece!!!(well..some trace mins too)...yep..in
the
> good old U.S. of A. For those of you in the U.S. we are having a big fight
> w/France about that kind of thing right now..they are feeding their cows
> human/etc. 'waste'...guess what..the European FDA type people say it's
o.k.!!
Only the French and German's, not the UK.
There is also the problem of hormones used by American beef farmers which
are not legal here, because our scientists tell us it is not good for the
end user, .Hormones would then be transfered through the meat meal again.
Some scientists will say anything because they work for the people making
it?
>
>
> > Already established...I guess I have to spell everything out 10x huh?
no matter how MANY times you spell it it doesn't mean that you are always
right
>
> So..my point was: why do poultry companies etc. use pellets if they don't
work?
research on fish pellets used for the rearing of trout found that on long
term the livers were damaged beyond repair because of the fat content, but
for the short term maximum growth was very good. isn't it possible that the
same thing could happen here as a lot of the ingredients are the same thing.
IE meat/bone/feather meal etc
I would mention again the animal feed industries use of sheep based meat and
bone meal in the use of cow feed and the problems caused, the French use of
sewage in animal feeds, would the manufacturers of our parrot feeds use only
the best human grade ingredients, I think not because of one thing profit.
I also wonder why American ideas are different to European ideas? that must
be the way things are taught or researched, couldn't we both be right?
Malc
L. Shaw
Pretty Bird(& the other brands I'm sure) have a wide range of their product for
the very purpose of making it suit the needs of specific species.
My Grey was reared on their formula for greys at 22%protein, 10%fat. Their
formula for Macaws is 19%Protein, 12%Fat...but another formula for
Hyacinths/Green wings at 19%protein 15%fat & a general at 19/8.
Their pellets also come in the same wide variety to meet the specific needs of
species; African Special(Greys, Conures); Hi-Pro(Cockatoos/Amazons);
Hi-Energy(Macaws, Palm Cockatoos); Cockatiel Select(Cockatiels, lovebirds,
parakeets); Lory Select(Lories, Lorikeets); Soft-Bill Select(Mynah birds);
Eclectus Special(Eclectus).
That's 7(seven) different formulas specific to the specific needs of the
species. They also have weaning food & 'Daily Select' which is a 'general' if
you have a load of birds & don't want to get a different one for each(that's at
the bottom of their list).
Again, the nutritionalists at these companies know all we do & a lot more & have
thought about all these things. They haven't just come up with a 'general'
pellet to feed to parrots... they know the different fat/protein/vitamin needs
of different species & have addressed that....very, very well in my opinion & by
the list above. I was especially impressed that they have an Eclectus
one....their needs would be tremendously different from a Grey & feeding them
the same pellets wouldn't be the greatest....their diet is 50% Fruit...vs. a
grey only having 5-10% fruit.
How many of us know what percentage protein/fat our Grey is getting w/what we
feed them? Knowing the pellet process Malc you personally know it is possible to
get a pellet to whatever nutritional need you want...that they are absorbable to
the system. Your right...too much of anything(i.e..your example of excessive
high fat content to those fish) the body can't absorbe, or will cause damage
long-term.
Pet pellets aren't designed the same as 'farming' pellets obviously...there is a
different view in mind. I hope nobody took my post to mean that the same
ingredients are used for pet pellets....my aim was to show that these things
aren't 'synthetic' & unabsorbable or something 'new'. The companies use the very
best ingredients & do look at the long-term good of our birds....if not they
would fail. They know pet owners will pay for the best for their animals feed.
I'm confident the seed mixes I buy for my other birds are the best the company
can get.. I feel the same with the pellet companies.
The question has been brought up(including by me, actually by me first) about
these pellet mixes on young birds(hopefully we note the difference in
handrearing formulas as above). Then we have to question too if people that
don't feed pellets change their feeding as the bird grows/ is younger? I
guarantee 99-100% don't. You'll feed the Grey the same thing from day one
bringing it home at 11-14wks until it is 70yrs old! So there is really no
argument there.
To me Malc, I believe that almost all pet greys eat better than they would in
the wild! Especially owned by people that know enough/learning enough to
find/read this group, whether seed fed or pellet fed. That's why you won't find
me instigating an anti-seed debate(I have seed fed birds)...but I will come out
for the pellet side if something blatantly anti-pellet is brought out which I
feel to be in obvious error. If someone is worried about their birds nutrition &
what they're feeding I will advise that I feel pellets could take away a lot of
that worry or, as has been brought up before, the person doesn't have the time,
ability etc. to make sure their bird is getting a good nutritional intake(I
don't think it's right to say 'they shouldn't have a grey then'...that's like
saying a woman that works should'nt have children if she won't stay at home to
care for them, to me).
I talked to someone 2wks ago that I hadn't seen in 10mths that now has a grey.
They said they give it chocolate..I told them that's not too good. I asked what
it eats..they said 'oh parrot 'stuff'..you know monkey nuts..'. From what I
see/feel the people learned enough to find this group feed their greys well
whether seed or pellet & I'm sure few will have nutritional problems.
Henry VIII had a grey(I've brought this up before)..wonder what he fed it?...I
doubt pellets...probably not any seed mix either..definitely not like any
available today!
I agree with a statement Mary made a few weeks back(about the 'changing cages')
that we buy into a lot of the 'greys are touchy/etc' thingys & get a paranoia
that does kill our enjoyment of them a bit. I think this is one area too.
My view is: Do your best to feed them in an educated way(keep learning from each
other here..I sure am as a novice grey owner)...but if your doing your best you
can almost be sure your bird is doing great nutritionally..whatever is your
staple diet. Keep an eye on wieght(not 12 times a day though<gg>) find a good
avian vet & focus more on having a great relationship & time with your bird.
Don't let the totally pro-pellet or anti-pellet ruin that....what would your
grey be eating in the wild??...not half as good as he does in your hands I bet.
Again, anyone who is interested enough in their greys to look up a group on the
net loves em to death & probably spoils em rotten(like me<g>). If we weren't so
passionate about them we'd have no 'debate' like this...so it's a good sign to
me.
Now Malc...could I pellet doritos or Salt & Vinegar crisps?<gggg>...Caspian
kills for em. She loves tuna though(personal favorite of mine to diet on..in
brine of course.. high protein..no fat..keep the energy up..drop weight
quick..me, not the grey)..I always offer her tuna.
Re: Different Pellet machines: Your probably right..like I said it was all the
feed for the test birds for that company so we did have funny things/amounts
going in but of course ran 'control' feeds as well. We also made the feed for
every growth period & there was a difference there between them & which needed
steam (pre-starter, starter, grower, finisher) amount of steam did varry..some
stuff needed none, some stuff we couldnt' get through the mill no matter what we
did. They've been up to it for years over there so your machines might be
newer...this was 9yrs ago too. One thing I miss about the U.S....my job..loved
it.
Lee
BIR...@webtv.net
week. I just made all my birds a meal of fresh green beans,
apples,grapes, french bread and leftover spag from last night :-) My b&g
is the only bird out of 9 who eats pellets.She loves Higgins Netherlands
Vita Krunch . Higgins uses naturally preserved fruit juice as the
flavor. As a matter of fact all my birds eat Higgins. I trust the
product they sell. I also use avian trio ,and supplement my greys with
a powder calcium. I don't like the look of Zupreem or the smell , it
looks to artificial . That is only my opinion . bye
Birdjayne
>looks to artificial .
I just won some Zupreem and I agree with you and so do my birds.
Jayne & Pepsi
Terdebc
Mark Adler
really like Pretty Bird, so I guess I'll stick with that for now. If they
like it and it keeps them healthy, why switch?
Terdebc <ter...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991029114156...@ng-ce1.aol.com...
Paul & Belinda
ter...@aol.com (Terdebc) wrote in <19991029114156.13738.00000019@ng-
ce1.aol.com>:
>I THIRD that about zupreen- feels like I'm feeding bubble gum! Deb
Uhuh. Did your Zupreem get wet? Maybe to much humidity? The pellets should
be firm and hard to the touch. Or am I missing the point here? *recovering
from a flu so not running on all 6 cyls yet*
Terdebc
Judith Johnson
about that brand. I am curious...I am feeding both my tiel (seeds,
dried greens) and CAG (pellets, veggies, tofu) "Exact". Hopefully
spelled right, but I am sure you know what I mean. Anyway, do you feel
"Pretty Bird" may be more nutrious for both my babies? Just curious...
jessica badlwin
as well (no insecticides/no preservatives). The only trouble with it is
that it is a little more expensive and harder to find- it's not generally
sold at pet stores- only through vets.
jess and pickle
tre...@my-deja.com
"Vita" <vi...@clara.net> wrote:
>
> Well, after all the discussion on pellets, I decided to get some for
Tali to
> try.
> As Treacy has said, getting pellets in the UK is not always so easy,
at
> least I have not found it so.
> The local vet stocked Pretty Bird, but I wanted to get some Harrisons
as we
> have tried Pretty Bird and Tali will not eat them.
> I found an advertisement in Parrots and telephoned the people
yesterday at
> 4-30pm.
My two birds seem to be getting on O.K. with Harrisons - how about
yours? It's early days yet, mind. I have to admit, I will find it
difficult to stop giving fruit {as per instructions}. Seems a bit bland
on it's own, but then I'm not a parrot (ha!)
Treacy
> At 8-30 am this morning a pack of Harrisons arrived at my door.
> How is that for service?
> I gave Tali a few, just to see what he thought of them, and he just
kept
> eating until they were gone:-)
> He will still have his fruit and vegetables though.
>
> Patricia.
>
>
chin...@gmail.com
> Answer:
> should I feed pellets
We sell animal feed machinery and equipment.Our factory is located in the largest feed machinery production base in China, Liyang City, the device can produce cattle and sheep, horses camels chickens and other livestock feed. We can feed complete engineering design, installation, debugging program to provide you with the most economical and reasonable, to make production more efficient, lower operating costs, produce better feed to meet the growing livestock and poultry, aquaculture needs of the industry. Undertake when producing 1-25 tons of all kinds of powder, premix, particulate materials and special aquatic feed turn-key feed works.More detailed equipment information, please visit our website, are also welcome to visit our factory and hope we can establish a good working relationship.
www.feed-equipment.com
r...@feed-equipment.com