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URGENT!!Expert please help!! About fluff

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Fung Eng Ming

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Mar 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/4/99
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I have a hammy who gave birth to 5 litter last two days. I bought a pack
of fluff yesterday and gave it to my hammie coz i want to make sure the
babies will get warm. But I don't now that fluff is dangerous. She has
made a cozy nest and place all her babies under the fluff nest. What
should I do now?

Please!!!

Any response to be appreciate!!
Thank you.


coffeenutt

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Mar 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/4/99
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Try this,

Put tissue paper on the other side of the cage, and then see if the mother
hammy will bring the babies to the tissue paper. Then you can take out the
fluff.

If not, then maybe you can try using a spoon to carry the babies to another
side of the cage?

Hope this helps, but please hear what other listers have to say too.

Regards,
Bernie


Fung Eng Ming wrote in message <36DDDA99...@tm.net.my>...

Amanda

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Mar 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/4/99
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My husband and I have used the fluff right from the first time we got our
hamster and he's fine! The only thing is that he's happy and comfortable. I
thing all the fear over the fluff is over hyped! I'd leave the fluff in.
I've also talked to others who have hamsters and they also use the fluff --
safe happy hammies there too.

Amanda

Nite Jenny

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Mar 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/4/99
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<< My husband and I have used the fluff right from the first time we got our
hamster and he's fine! The only thing is that he's happy and comfortable. I
thing all the fear over the fluff is over hyped! I'd leave the fluff in.
I've also talked to others who have hamsters and they also use the fluff --
safe happy hammies there too. >>

Being deep in the hamster breeding comuntity, I can say with 100% certanty
that fluffy bedding is NOT SAFE! If you want to risk your hamster's life
because a few people were lucky, that's your business. But realize, I know
many people who have had hamsters died of intestinal blockages, have had their
limbs amputated, etc...
So, please don't use it. :o)

- Jamie
- Sierra Hamstery

Amanda

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Mar 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/4/99
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There's a risk with anything you use. I was just saying from my experience and experience from others I know fluff is safe! If it wasn't tested thoroughly it wouldn't be on the market, people would sue the company. But you have your opinion and I'll keep mine, but I will not stop voicing mine as I'm sure you will voice yours (which is both our rights). But don't try to make me sound as if I'm negligent with my hammie, I've seen all the statistics and researched before I chose the fluff.

Amanda

Nite Jenny

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Mar 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/4/99
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<<There's a risk with anything you use. I was just saying from my experience
and
experience from others I know fluff is safe! If it wasn't tested thoroughly it
wouldn't be on the market, people would sue the company. But you have your
opinion
and I'll keep mine, but I will not stop voicing mine as I'm sure you will voice
yours (which is both our rights). But don't try to make me sound as if I'm
negligent with my hammie, I've seen all the statistics and researched before I
chose the fluff. >>

This is taken from Lorraine Hill's wonderful Site:


<< HAMSTER BEDDING
There are various types of fluffy cotton wool type bedding sold in pet shops
for hamsters and marked as "safe". Unfortunately this type of bedding can cause
stomach blockages if eaten by the hamster resulting in death, can become stuck
in the hamster's cheekpouches and can wrap around a limb and tighten resulting
in loss of limb.

As a general rule, any bedding used for hamsters should dissolve if placed in
water or a very weak acid solution and should break easily. This will ensure
that if eaten by the hamster the bedding material simply dissolves in the
stomach and if caught around a limb it is easily broken by the hamster. Any
bedding material that does not meet these criteria should not be used. Shredded
paper bedding is always best.

Below are some hamster owner's experiences of using fluffy bedding with their
hamsters. If you know of a pet store which sells this type of bedding you may
like to print off this page and show them the dangers of this type of bedding
and see if they can be persuaded to stop stocking it.

MAYBE SOMEONE U KNOW in SOMEWHERE at 11:41:20 Wednesday April 22 98
On this very first day, my mom took me to a pet shop to buy a pet. On that day,
I bought all the things needed. By foolishness, I bought the fluffy bedding as
it is marked save. The next day my hamster choked and immediately I took it to
the vet and the vet used a tube like thing to suck out the bedding and told me
not to use the fluffy bedding as many of his patients are killed by this.

Cheyanne Owl-Spottedhorse in Fairbanks,Alaska at 19:59:7 Tuesday April 21 98
Fluffy bedding caused my hamster baby to get gangreen. Now I have Ivory.

Claire in South Wales UK!! at 22:48:5 Monday April 13 98
I purchased a baby syrian hamster and had to take him to the vet hours after he
had settled into his new home as he had put food and bedding (FLUFFY) into his
cheeks and didn't know how to remove it, the vet had to pull it out! If he had
swallowed this it wouldn't have broken down but made him quite ill! Be careful
if you do use fluffy bedding!

Allan in Singapore at 11:4:26 Monday April 13 98
My old hamster had eaten a small piece of the fluffy bedding and as a result he
died! Before his death we took him to the vet and when we reached there he
died. Now I only use soft tissue. Don't use that stuff it will do no good to
your hamster!

Markay in Somewhere at 23:21:30 Monday March 23 98
I used a fluffy bedding for my old hamster and it had a weird seizure and died.


Amy in Oregon, USA at 8:32:6 Sunday March 22 98
We have Syrian & Russian hamsters...gerbils too. The fluffy bedding crippled 2
baby gerbils and killed another ... we were able to save the limbs of 2 others
in the same litter. Now we only use tissues. Luckily our hamsters' babies
weren't harmed! Pet stores should be more responsible & less greedy!!

Katie in Cambria at 2:9:2 Friday March 13 98
I used to buy my hamster the fluffy kind and she was no longer feeling well. I
took her to the vet and he said to use Kleenex or just normal sawdust that is
not harmful and is great for the hamster. I was so happy I read this and went
to the vet to ask him if that was the problem.

Jenny Breaker in Halifax at 23:30:53 Wednesday March 11 98
My hamsters had fluffy bedding and they were fine. Unfortunately, my friend was
not so fortunate. Her hammy's bedding was swallowed and killed her.

James Hayward in Hook Norton, Oxfordshire,UK at 22:37:49 Wednesday March 4 98
Our hamster, Gromit, died very suddenly a few weeks ago, and we just thought
that she had caught an infection which had been too much for her. We replaced
her with another hamster, a chocolate brown called Portia. A couple of weeks
later she went exactly the same way. She was very active one minute and then
went very floppy, started squeaking and within 2 hours was also dead. This time
we sterilised everything, threw out all of the bedding and food in case they
were infected and started all over again with Millie. This morning we woke to
find her in the same pitiful state. This time we took her to the vets and spent
£40 on a post mortem and tests. It turned out that she had been eating the
fluffy bedding and it had caused a blockage to her intestine and her stomach
was swollen to almost four times its natural size. When we checked the fluffy
bedding package it says that it is SAFE! I have written to the store where it
was purchased, and we have bought another hamster from a much more
knowledgeable source. We are now the proud owners of Mollie, and we just hope
she lasts a lot longer. Even though we had only had the others a few weeks each
we still all got very attached to them and they very quickly showed their
unique characters. James Hayward (aged 11yrs)

Tim Wallace in Melbourne Australia at 2:9:18 Sunday February 22 98
My hamsters were constantly loosing limbs due to the problem of "bad bedding".
Don't use anything stringy, the strings wrap around limbs.

Kelly Hallinan in Sweden at 19:59:48 Saturday February 21 98
I have changed my hamsters bedding because my friend had a set of puppies and
she used bedding from the shop and one of the puppies foot had gone black and
dropped off and another had been strangled.

Zara Fenley in Singapore at 11:17:9 Sunday February 15 98
I had trouble with my hamster with fluffy bedding and now I use soft tissue
paper and my hamster is happy and healthy.

okep in Blisstonia at 7:36:31 Tuesday February 10 98
The hamster book I bought has all the warnings about the dangers of using
certain types of bedding such as the fluffy bedding type.

Nicole Bianco in Cornwall,New York,USA at 0:21:56 Tuesday February 10 98
That fluffy bedding used to make my hamsters sick, and apathetic. But now, I
don't use it and they are happy, vivacious, and energetic (keeping me up all
night running on that squeaky wheel)!

Katie in USA at 23:55:15 Monday February 9 98
My friend had a Teddy Bear Hamster, and she bought that fluffy bedding. She
used it, even after numerous times of warning her. She called me a week later
to tell me that hamster died of strangulation. For my hamsters, I use tissue
ALWAYS. My friend wouldn't.

Reybecca Fredericks in Diamond Point,New York,America at 18:57:24 Friday
February 6 98
Down with fluffy bedding. I am suing a pet supply distributor in my area
because this bedding killed my baby "Kiyle". I'll let you know how it comes
out....

Anon at 2:28:18 Monday January 19 98
Our hamster died because he swallowed a piece of fluffy bedding. We were
worried before he died so we took him to the vet. When he died we paid 130
dollars to see how he died and now we use paper pieces as bedding.

Mandy Hope in New Zealand at 23:5:21 Friday January 16 98
My fully grown Syrian hamster got a small piece of fluffy bedding around her
neck and strangled. I returned home to find her dead!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jen in UK at 23:2:16 Friday January 16 98
My hamster got ill after using "safe" fluffy bedding from pet shop - after I
removed it my hamster returned to normal. I've not used again!

Barb Peterson in Iowa City, Iowa at 14:45:32 Thursday January 8 98
We have had two experiences with baby hamsters getting "tangled" in the fluffy
bedding product. After the first incident, we discovered on the back of the
package that in tiny letters it stated "not for use with baby dwarf hamsters."
I discovered the first hamster which had a piece of the fluff (tiny piece about
the size of a human hair) wrapped around its "ankle". A neighbour lady and
myself managed to get it off, but by then the foot was very red and swollen.
"Stimpy" later lost his foot, after it turned black, but he was still a healthy
little guy - my favourite! Our second experience was just the other day, when a
newborn baby was attached (more or less stuck) on a piece of the fluff, and the
mother could not get it back into the nest. I managed to remove the fluff, and
mom is taking care of her. We are now wondering (after talking to Lorraine via
e-mail) if that is the reason we have had a couple hamster die over the last
few months. One of them for a few days looked like she had a huge amount of
food in her pouch, then died. The other just suddenly got skinny and skinnier,
and finally died. We will be taking the "fluff" out of our two hamster cages,
and using toilet paper from now on. I may add, that after the incident with the
first hamster getting it wrapped around its leg, I went back to the pet store
and returned that particular brand of fluff (unopened package) and told them
what had happened, and showed them the small print on the package about not
using it on baby dwarf hamsters. I was in the store about a week later and
there was the same fluff, and more, as they just received a new shipment.

jim in Singapore at 11:10:54 Thursday January 1 98
My hammy chewed on the fluffy bedding which I gave it and as a result choked.
Luckily, I sent it to the vet immediately and they used a respirator to suck
out the fluff and my hammy was OK. THROW ANY FLUFFY BEDDING AWAY I stress !!!
Use toilet paper instead. It works very well.

Terri in Kalispell, Montana at 20:1:30 Wednesday December 31 97
Something I feel people need to be warned not to use is a piece of fabric. The
threads from it can get wrapped around feet or bodies. We have acquired a
Hedgehog that almost lost his hind legs from his past owner had given him
fabric pieces to use as a blanket. The threads from them cut both his hind legs
to the bone.

Lea Carter in Kingston, Ontario, Canada at 3:31:5 Thursday December 18 97
I never had a hamster as a small child, and only got my first little guy in my
first year of college. I got him a wire cage and used mostly pine shavings for
his bedding. I even bought a book on raising a hamster. The book and the pet
store people both said that the FLUFFY bedding was a favorite of these small
creatures, so I bought a bag. It was red fluffy stuff. Well, Desi started to
eat the stuff, and I noticed that it turned his urine red, and a couple of days
later he started to choke on it. Luckily I was home, and now - a year later - I
only give Desi toilet paper or kleenex as bedding ! I wish I had found a web
site as informative as this one when I first bought Desi. It would have saved
us both a lot of heartache !

Gina Bianco in Cornwall,New York,USA at 7:27:8 Saturday December 6 97
As my sister, I have had a similar terrible experience with cotton bedding. I
purchased two hamsters. I put them in separate cages, and to my dismay, while
at work the next day, both hamsters incurred separate tragedies. One had a
rather large bit of fill wrapped around it's neck, and had hung itself by the
water bottle holder. The other hamster had appeared to be sneezing, and to my
dismay, it had a piece of fill running from it's throat to it's nose. I removed
it, but she died three days later from consuming it. I now only use Soft White
Pine shavings.

Nicole Bianco in Cornwall,NY,USA at 7:14:58 Saturday December 6 97
My hamster named "Nora" was placed in a cage containing fluffy bedding. She
seemed to like it, so I didn't see a problem. However, she was with her
newborns, and the bedding retained both moisture, and heat, causing Nora to
become ill. She passed away, leaving all of her newborns to fend for
themselves, and they passed as well.

Tracy millers in Ontario, canada at 20:53:3 Friday December 5 97
I have 1 hamster and I've used it over and over again with no problem until
today. My best hamster named max died today becauseof the stupid cotton! I hate
that stuff and I'll never use it again.

Laura Heckford in East Grinstead, Sussex England at 11:50:18 Saturday November
29 97 I gave my hamster called fudge some string bedding as my mum doesn't like
the fluff bedding as it clogs up her hover. Fudge ate the string bedding and
started to choke on it and she nearly died.

Maylyn's mother in Singapore at 4:33:14 Monday November 24 97
Regarding my daughter's comment about the bedding, I think we should do as she
said. After the hamster's death, she cried for a period of 6 months! My poor
daughter is still grieving over the poor hamster. I hope that you will be able
to get rid of the evil fluffy bedding. I don't wish to break her heart again
just because of the bedding-Veronica,Maylyn's mother.
Maylyn in Singapore at 3:14:33 Sunday November 23 97
I once had a hamster. He died because of the evil bedding. I think we should
get rid of the bedding.

Steve Habubak in Dallas, TX at 1:19:46 Wednesday November 19 97
Fluffy bedding is evil. I have had 2 hamsters who died of it. I tried it out
before I read this page about it. At first they used it for nesting, then they
both stopped eating and instead started acting likea dog before it vomits, like
it's trying to force something up or downits throat. I thought it might be heat
stroke so I made my mom turn down the Air Conditioner. I went to bed and woke
up the next morning to two stiff Russian Dwarf Hamsters. Down with Fluffy
bedding, let it burn.

James Kim in Saratoga, CA at 4:41:42 Wednesday October 8 97
I used to have ten hamsters and used fluffy bedding also, it was okay for about
a week but soon all of them starting choking and losing limbs, I had one
hamster that was literally stuck in the bedding and lost all four of his legs.
It was a horrible sight.

Susan in New York State at 3:5:11 Thursday September 11 97
My daughter started using over the last few months fluffy bedding. The hamster
was about a year and a half and very healthy, and very loved.Last Sunday after
cleaning her cage my daughter gave the hamster some of this bedding and the
hamster acted like it was stuck in it's mouth & my daughter tried to help by
pulling at the fluffy bedding. We thought everything was OK until the hamster
stopped eating the next day. Tuesday morning when I went to check on the
hamster, it was acting like it was choking. I took the hamster with me to the
phone to call our vet, but by the time I got through, the hamster died in my
hand. I called the pet store to notify them of my concern and they informed me
that they sell between 8 - 10 bags a week and will continue to do so. I won't
ever do business with them again and wish something more could be done to
prevent any more broken hearts like my daughter's and mine.

Michael Corfield in UK at 22:45:50 Thursday August 28 97
We have had a problem with fluffy bedding. The bedding became caught in the
pouch of a young hamster. Whilst the hamster was trying to remove it, its pouch
could be seen stretched outside its mouth. The bedding eventually came away
leaving us concerned that the pouch may be damaged.

julia szabo in virginia at 16:51:39 Tuesday August 19 97
i had fluffy bedding in my hamsters cage also. I had just learned that it was
bad so I went upstairs to check on my baby hamsters and their mother and when I
looked in the mother had been strangled to death by the bedding.

Miranda Lake in Poth, Texas at 19:17:44 Friday August 15 97
I once had fluffy bedding in my pregnant hamsters' tank. She had her pups in
this bedding and all of the babies suffocated. I was left with 16 dead hamsters
and a frantic mother. She "disposed" of them herself.

Don White in Fremont, California U.S.A. at 5:50:26 Wednesday August 13 97
We believe that the use fluffy bedding lead to the death of our hamster. She
developed an intestinal blockage and had to be put down. This bedding does not
dissolve in water and has long fibres. Thank you for this website and all the
information.

Alan Greenwell in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England at 23:32:4 Sunday August 10 97
Two newly born Russian hamsters got the soft cotton bedding wrapped around
there legs. Even with quick action they lost one front leg. However they have
turned out to be the most amazing gymnasts and are more able than there four
legged friends.

Lori Milburn in Lake Forest, CA at 20:29:25 Saturday July 26 97
A piece of bedding wrapped around my hamsters leg and became embedded. We tried
to remove it, only to have him go into shock and die. This was only last
weekend and I am grateful to have a place to "complain", so to speak. Your site
has been most informative. Thank You.

Michelle in California at 2:21:37 Thursday July 24 97
The fluffy bedding I purchased said it was safe for birds and rodents, but one
of my birds got the stuff wound around his feet and died. After this incident I
will never use anything but unscented dye free Toilet Paper for my hamsters or
birds. My poor baby! I'm sure this could have happened just as easily to my
hamsters too! One wonders if the manufacturers of this overpriced stuff have
ever watched a hamster make its bed? Also what about the little fibers the
little sweeties could inhale? I think they could suffocate and have breathing
problems..

Sara in MD at 2:55:52 Wednesday July 23 97
OH MY GOODNESS!!! I CANNOT BELIEVE IT!! This cotton bedding JUNK I used not
only cost me a lot of money but a hammie life!!! My favorite hamster died
because he choked on this SUPPOSEDLY "hamster safe bedding" I AM OUTRAGED!!!!

Brittany in Cincinnati OH US at 8:26:13 Sunday July 20 97
Fluffy bedding is completely unsafe for use in breeding, and I have lost 4
babies due to the tightness of the fibers. As an amateur breeder (it's a hobby)
I didn't know much, but I have found this stuff is terrible for hamsters.

Steph in AZ at 18:0:21 Tuesday June 17 97
My hamster got its back leg caught in cotton batting. This injury caused a trip
to the vet. He had to be put on antibiotics (which is not good for hamsters) or
he would have lost his leg or even died. PLEASE don't use cotton batting! I am
10 years old and LOVE hamsters. We are going to buy a new baby hamster TODAY!

Anon at 12:53:22 Friday June 13 97
My Siberian just got back from having the vet remove strands of fluff that had
wound all around her bottom teeth and were hanging down out of her mouth
(luckily, or I wouldn't have known what was wrong). I had used cotton balls for
nest fluff for at least 40 years without a problem, but now I notice that some
brands of "cotton" balls are actually half rayon. This material is much tougher
and the hamsters can't bit through it, apparently. Please make sure that you
use only shredded Kleenex for nest fluff!

Carly in Kelowna B.c.Canada at 4:53:35 Monday June 9 97
My baby hamster died this morning because we gave her fluffy cotton to make her
bed out of because she chewed holes in all her boxes. I think more people
should know about this danger to make their pets safer. I love her very much
and I will never forget her and she will never forget me.

Steph in USA at 13:38:48 Friday May 23 97
I know this stuff is awful already because I had a hammies that lost his front
foot to it, and I vowed never to use it again. Well I put some in ( just the
tiniest bit) to help my mommie hammie make her nest. Well just my luck one of
the babies has lost his hind leg( the whole leg!!) and his other back foot has
the cotton wrapped around it. His foot is incredibly swollen but it is just
barely hanging on. God I feel so stupid!!! I hate this stuff it SHOULD be taken
off the market!! Its a baby killer!!

Jessica L. Dion in Burlington, Vermont, USA at 16:11:7 Thursday May 15 97
I have been keeping and breeding hamsters since I was a small child. A large
litter was born in the dead of winter one year, and to help keep the pups warm,
I added a wool sock, which I mostly unravelled and cut into strips. Although it
made an excellent warm bedding, I didn't realize that one of the pups got her
hind leg wrapped around some of the fibers. By the time the pups were old
enough to be handled and I found her, the small hamster's hind foot had lost
its circulation and was limp and blue. I carefully removed the piece of string
(so small! I felt terrible!) and tried to splint the foot, but the foot was
dead. Luckily, she didn't get an infection throughout this process. Eventually
the dead foot fell off, and she was left with three limbs. She was much smaller
than the others, and developed a somewhat psychotic habit of pacing feverishly
back and forth across the cage (but was otherwise healthy). I will never again
use anything with strings or long, strong fibers for rodent bedding. It's
better to simply put lots of wood shavings, or cardboard (which the animal will
shred) in their cages. I use a cardboard box as a nesting box and the babies
stay warm enough. Hope this helps somebody! - Jessica

A.C.Richards in Brighton at 13:10:51 Friday May 2 97
A few years ago my hamster choked to death on this type of bedding. He used to
store his food in his bed and when he tried to eat it he got bedding caught in
his throat. I think the danger should have been spotted a long time ago. >>

So, I will say it again, this stuff is not safe. Don't believe anything
you read on the package, those people are only interested in making a buck, and
pet stores have no knowledge of what is safe (Look how many keep their animals
in Cedar). I'm not trying to press a belief on anyone - this is FACT.

Glen Harman

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Mar 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/4/99
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Amanda <a-m...@usa.net> wrote in message news:36DED8D8...@usa.net...

>There's a risk with anything you use. I was just saying from my experience and
>experience from others I know fluff is safe! If it wasn't tested thoroughly it
>wouldn't be on the market, people would sue the company.
>
>I've seen all the statistics and researched before I chose the fluff.

Chances are that there is at least one "fluffy" bedding product out
there that results in so very few problems that it can be called "safe".
Perhaps it is made from special organic materials that are easily
digested by small animals. Perhaps it has fiber lengths which aren't
so small as to be inhaled yet aren't so large as to wrap around
extremities or coil-up/lodge in the digestive system.

On the other hand, there are "fluffy" bedding products which you
need only take one look at and feel and you'll realize they wouldn't
be good to use. For example, I've come across some stuff made
out of unknown man-made fibers that were fairly difficult for even
me to break. The rule of thumb is the animal will eat some bedding
either on purpose or by accident, and if a hamster ate some of this
stuff I'm sure it could cause problems.

Apparently enough owners, breeders, and vets have run into problems
themselves and/or heard of others running into problems that they
have decided to simply recommend against using any/all such fluffy
products. Case in point: I discussed the possibility that Digger was
blocked with three vets. Each asked me about food/water intake, then
they asked me if I used "one of those fluffy bedding/nesting products".

Maybe you use a very good product, maybe your hamster is less
inclined to eat bedding, maybe you have simply been lucky. Who
knows. But just a word of advice if I may... don't allow the "its been
tested and the company would have been forced to recall it if it wasn't
safe" idea take precedence over any evidence to the contrary ;)


Amanda

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Mar 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/4/99
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*sigh* No offence but I really don't care if it was gods site, in MY experiense and
the 5 vets I asked its safe!

Glen Harman

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Mar 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/4/99
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Fung Eng Ming <emf...@tm.net.my> wrote in message news:36DF3C3B...@tm.net.my...
>Thank's Amanda, Nite Jenny and Glen Harman,
>Hopefully you all will not argue coz of my question.
>Thank you very much anyway.
>
>Anyway, I have remove all the fluffy bedding.
>The fluff didn't hurt them, but I know it's better to change it for safety.
>
>Lorrainne teach me to use toilet paper, but I use tissue paper instead of toilet
>paper, it's that okay??

Hmmm... facial tissue paper like "Kleenex"? I'd take a large piece of the
tissue paper you are using, hold it up in rays of sunlight, shake it, and
see what happens. If tons of dust specks poof out and float around in
the light, I wouldn't use it. I'd also make sure it wasn't coated with any
ointments, scents, etc. Lastly, I'd check to make sure that it is durable
enough that as the hams live and move around in it the pieces for the
most part stay together. I mean, you want it to be easily digested, but I
don't think you want it turning into mush and shredding and mucking up
the nest if you know what I mean. If it passes I'd say it would be OK.

Glen
Unscented, unbleached, soft paper towel user.

Fung Eng Ming

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Mar 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/5/99
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Nite Jenny

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Mar 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/5/99
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<< *sigh* No offence but I really don't care if it was gods site, in MY
experiense and the 5 vets I asked its safe! >>

Can I have the names and numbers of the vets you've talked to so I can
explain to them why fluffy bedding is not safe?
I'm not trying to make you feel defensive or anything, I just do not want
people thinking that fluffy bedding is safe and then have their hamster die as
a result. I will not let people believe it because it's not fair to them or
their animals.
Ask any of the reputable breeders on this board - Lorraine & DGI, for
example (Not that I'm not a veteran owner and breeder - you just don't seem to
believe me). These people have owned and bred hamsters for years - they'd know
better than anyone what beddings are safe.

- Jamie

PS: Don't believe everything vets say - you'd be surprised what they aren't
taught in vet school.

Nite Jenny

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Mar 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/5/99
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<< Lorrainne teach me to use toilet paper, but I use tissue paper instead of
toilet paper, it's that okay?? >>

Plain white untreated tissue paper (We're talking Kleenex type tissue
right?) is just fine. To test it, just to make sure, put some in water and see
if it dissolves. It doesn't have to dissapear, just break up easily. :o)

KamiDscale

unread,
Mar 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/5/99
to
Well, I think this covers about everything. I don't have much to add, but I've
used tissue paper from the start because my Aunt Ellen owned a hamster before
me and recommended it. I've seen the "fluffy" bedding stuff in stores, and I
think "Why would I pay $2 or so for something that's going to be thrown out
mostly when I clean the ham's cage?" I think it's more economical and hygenic
to use tissue paper. For one thing, I hardly ever pay over $1.75 for a box of
tissues at 2 tissues a cleaning, 1 cleaning a week lasts a looong time. Also, I
think the retailers are thinking reusable bedding, which is why it's usually
not biodegradable. My hamsters LOVE the tissue I give them (I give them a third
torn tissue paper mid-week after their bed's been relatively flattened). In
fact, between two hamsters, I've bought "bedding" materials for them (as in
tissue of course) only twice in one year. That's pretty good, safe, and like I
said, it's more hygenic to give them fresh bedding than keep the fluff in there
week after week. Cost wise, if you replaced the fluff every time you cleaned
the cage, you'd end up paying a fortune. On the other hand, I'm having trouble
finding aspen chips for my hams' cages.
Seems that the most unsafe items are readily available, and the safest
things that might cost a bit more or less, aren't known as widely or available
as they should. If hamsters were popular as dogs and cats for pets, it'd
probably be different.
Oh well. March 7th I'll have had my lil Golden, Kit,for 1 whole year =) I
thank everyone of you serious hamster lovers for all the helpful posts I've
read. And please, don't go on about "trolls", cause that only overshadows a lot
of the intelligent, much appreciated information that comes through here. We're
intelligent enough to recognize the serious responces from the silly or absurd
I sinceredly hope.

-Heather the hammy Lover- =)

Lorraine Hill

unread,
Mar 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/5/99
to
Are you saying that your research consists of just asking 5 vets?

The lifespan survey conducted through my site shows that the average
lifespan of hamsters whose owners used fluffy bedding is less than the
average lifespan of owners who did not use it.

Often the fluff KILLS the hamster .. therefore the owner doesn't take it to
the vet, therefore the vet doesn't know the hamster died because of fluffy
bedding, therefore the vet has no reason to think it is unsafe. Not much
point taking a dead hamster to a vet afterall is there? Well not unless you
want a post mortem doing and most people don't bother. I've never been
motor racing but just because I haven't experienced it I'm not going to
start going around telling everyone it is the safest sport there is. I
would not expect a vet therefore to say that something is safe just because
no one has walked into their surgery with a hamster that died from fluffy
bedding.

Therefore, I am assuming that the 5 vets you asked actually did their own
tests on the bedding before telling you it was safe? If they have not then
they cannot comment on it's safety. Therefore assuming that your vets did
carry out their own tests I would be very interested to hear of the brands
they tested and the results of their tests.

If the vets did not carry out their own tests I would be interested to hear
on what basis they have come to the conclusion that the bedding is safe -
presumably their statements are based on more than "it looks safe" or "no
one bought a dead hamster in the surgery".

Some owners have had post mortems done on their hamsters that suddenly died
and the fluffy bedding has been found to be the DIRECT CAUSE OF DEATH -
having caused an internal blockage. So how can you tell others it is safe,
especially when I suspect you have not had post mortems carried out on your
own hamsters and so cannot even say that your own hamsters did not die due
to fluffy bedding with 100% certainty .

Lorraine Hill
The Complete Hamster Site
http://www.hamsters.co.uk


Amanda wrote in message <36DF1DF4...@usa.net>...

Lorraine Hill

unread,
Mar 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/5/99
to
FLUFF IS NOT SAFE! Would you eat it knowing that it does not dissolve in
your stomach??? NO! So why would you want to put it in a cage and risk
your hamster eating it? Think about it .. the stuff is dangerous for you to
eat, so how do you expect it to be safe for your hamster?

As for the manufacturer's tests .. when the first brand of fluffy bedding
came out and the
dangers became apparent the Hamster clubs in the UK and the British Hamster
Association of which I was an Officer contacted the manufacturers and
confronted them about the dangers of this bedding (after post mortems on
dead hamsters had put it as the direct cause of death). The clubs asked for
the manufacturer's test results and they were extremely reluctant to
circulate the results of their tests. When, finally, the tests results were
received the tests were absolute nonsense!

Their tests showed that the fluff would dissolve in a HIGH acid solution.
Unfortunately the manufacturer had failed to realise that the acidity of a
hamster's stomach is EXTREMELY LOW. Therefore their test DID NOT prove that
the fluff would dissolve in a hamster's gut.

The other test which they carried out was a weight/breakage test.
Unfortunately they had failed to establish the strength of a hamster and the
weight and force under which the fluff will break is much more than even the
largest hamster would be able to exert.

Also, bear in mind that the strength and force to break the bedding when it
is wet is even greater.

Yes, the manufacturer did their own tests .. unfortunately the manufacturer
took no account of the hamsters biology or strength. When asked whether
they had consulted a vet or a hamster expert when conducting the tests,
their reply was NO! They also admitted to not having anyone on their staff
that knew anything about hamsters. Oh yeah .. the tests look fine and show
the fluff is safe to anyone who knows nothing about hamsters! However,
anyone who does know anything about hamsters see the tests for what they are
.. ABSOLUTELY WORTHLESS!

By the way, out of interest when your hamster's died, did you have a post
mortem done on them? If not then you cannot say that they did not die of
intestinal blockage due to the bedding. If you had no post mortem done then
you cannot say in your experience it is safe and that it did not kill any
hamsters you have had. It is only if you had a post mortem done on them and
no bedding was found in the gut that you can say, hand on heart, that the
bedding did not kill them.

I am not accusing you of being negligent, just misinformed - only those
aware of the facts and not caring, and continuing to use the bedding could
be accused of being negligent.

Anyone giving their hamster fluffy bedding in all probability is shortening
its lifespan (as shown in the lifespan survey conducted through my site) and
anyone who uses fluffy bedding and has not had a post mortem done at the
time of death cannot say with 100% certainty that the bedding did not kill
the hamster and cannot therefore comment on its safety.

Lorraine Hill
The Complete Hamster Site
http://www.hamsters.co.uk


Amanda wrote in message <36DED8D8...@usa.net>...


>There's a risk with anything you use. I was just saying from my experience
and
>experience from others I know fluff is safe! If it wasn't tested thoroughly
it
>wouldn't be on the market, people would sue the company. But you have your
opinion
>and I'll keep mine, but I will not stop voicing mine as I'm sure you will
voice
>yours (which is both our rights). But don't try to make me sound as if I'm
>negligent with my hammie, I've seen all the statistics and researched
before I
>chose the fluff.
>

>Amanda
>
>Nite Jenny wrote:
>
>> << My husband and I have used the fluff right from the first time we got
our
>> hamster and he's fine! The only thing is that he's happy and comfortable.
I
>> thing all the fear over the fluff is over hyped! I'd leave the fluff in.
>> I've also talked to others who have hamsters and they also use the
fluff --
>> safe happy hammies there too. >>
>>
>> Being deep in the hamster breeding comuntity, I can say with 100%
certanty
>> that fluffy bedding is NOT SAFE! If you want to risk your hamster's life
>> because a few people were lucky, that's your business. But realize, I
know
>> many people who have had hamsters died of intestinal blockages, have had
their
>> limbs amputated, etc...

>> So, please don't use it. :o)

Lorraine Hill

unread,
Mar 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/5/99
to
>If it wasn't tested thoroughly it
>>wouldn't be on the market,

Why not? There are plenty of products on the market which are unsafe. Take
those wicker igloo things - do you realise that if you strip all the wicker
off underneath is metal wire with sharp edges - the edges are not smoothed
off or tucked away anywhere, but left to easily cause injury? Now I
wouldn't give that to a hamster especially bearing in mind their habit of
gnawing .. but it's on the market .. but it's not safe.

>people would sue the company.

If they had the money yes. But at the end of the day you are talking about
the death of a hamster that cost $8 or £5 and thousands of dollars or pounds
to sue. Most people don't think it is worth the time, effort or money.
Also, the thought of taking on a big company in court is rather daunting to
most. However, I did hear that one company are being sued but I cannot
recall which one.

gjerrell

unread,
Mar 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/5/99
to
I fear anything which can act as a filtering agent, or a matter in turn
which a hamster uses to bed. Since they naturally line and burrow, it
follows they'll carry and surround themselves, or breathe through whatever
contamination is therein captured. Hamsters are widely killed for research
purposes because their respiratory system is an accelerated model suited to
medical insights into our own. If a hamster surrounds itself in the
innerline of a nest made from cotton, there may be some likelyhood to be
hunched over and sleeping nose-to-tail, (foetally, as it were), for fine
particles sucked up and accumated in finely woven cotton byproducts.
Another argument follows intestinal evacuation of materials foreign to the
organism.

Ultimately, perhaps, as you say, time will be your best judge. However,
over time, to better explain why I said fear, is in part reason for bad
experience I had with a otherwise strong and aggressive hamster, whose
sudden death seemed to me premature. Take it for grain of salt, as you
will....

In following someone who introduced me to hamsters, sometime prior to
coming across this usenet discussion group, I was told me hamsters like to
nest in socks. Which was of course right, sure enough, that hamster went
straightaway into a sock to sleep -- while not incessantly chewing holes to
poke its cute snout out, until ultimately discarded and no longer fit to
clean. And so it went on. . .unknowingly, I'd diligently provide clean
socks, cut widthwise into two pieces, exchanged weekly along with normal
cage cleaning. Only when the hamster died, it all happened too fast for me,
within a day of noticing she'd lost her normal appetite. Concerned seeing
her weak and stumbling, it wasn't long before she was reduced to pitifully
gasping for air. When I picked her up to clear a space in the wood chips
where she'd fallen, for her to breathe, she took her last breath and died in
my hands.

I don't know the answer, what exactly caused that to happened. Only what
I feel, that she deserved to live longer if at all within my means. Now, I
simply don't take the same chances when not sure about introducing foreign
substances from my world into their genetic make. Stictly a wood-and-paper
kind-of-guy for me from here on out. If they want to play with something,
fine -- go bury your heads in the sandbox like all good little ragheaded
mousers.

David G. Imber

unread,
Mar 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/5/99
to
On 5 Mar 1999 02:11:41 GMT, nite...@aol.com (Nite Jenny) wrote:

-><< *sigh* No offence but I really don't care if it was gods site, in MY
->experiense and the 5 vets I asked its safe! >>


->Ask any of the reputable breeders on this board - Lorraine & DGI, for
->example (Not that I'm not a veteran owner and breeder - you just don't

I don't have any first-hand experience of using fluff (Lorraine's
warnings were enough for me) but I can say without equivocation that from
the 5~6 panicked letters I've received over the years from people whose
hamsters have nearly been killed by it that, yes, there is a strong element
of risk associated with it. It is unquestionable -- I have witnessed the
evidence and it was perfectly clear. I'm satisfied to recommend without
qualification that fluff should NEVER, EVER be used. Why take that chance?

DGI


********************************

David G. Imber
Maniform Creative Services
http://www.maniform.com

********************************

Joel McLellan

unread,
Mar 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/5/99
to

Nite Jenny

unread,
Mar 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/6/99
to
<< Nite Jenny wrote:

<< My husband and I have used the fluff right from the first time we
got our hamster and he's fine! The only thing is that he's happy and
comfortable. I thing all the fear over the fluff is over hyped! I'd leave the
fluff
in.
I've also talked to others who have hamsters and they also use the

fluff - safe happy hammies there too. >> >>

Hey hey hey - I never said that!

- Jamie

Tigrrrita

unread,
Mar 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/6/99
to
>I saw a package of the fluff in Kmart the other day and there was a
>warning printed on the back of it that it could cause the loss of limbs
>in small animals.

I only used fluff one day, luckily I found Lorraine Hill's web site and this
newsgroup the next day and removed it and the cedar I was using. So I've
looked on the backs of all the fluffy beddings I've noticed in my local pet
stores, they all have warnings about the possible loss of limbs, strangulation,
or digestive problem-induced death.
Tigrita Laura


Mommy to Fifi and Joe, my little Sable Syrian hamster babies

Amanda McVey

unread,
Mar 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/6/99
to
Must be nice to be perfect!!

Nite Jenny wrote:

> << *sigh* No offence but I really don't care if it was gods site, in MY
> experiense and the 5 vets I asked its safe! >>
>

> Can I have the names and numbers of the vets you've talked to so I can
> explain to them why fluffy bedding is not safe?
> I'm not trying to make you feel defensive or anything, I just do not want
> people thinking that fluffy bedding is safe and then have their hamster die as
> a result. I will not let people believe it because it's not fair to them or
> their animals.

> Ask any of the reputable breeders on this board - Lorraine & DGI, for

Nite Jenny

unread,
Mar 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/7/99
to
<< Must be nice to be perfect!! >>

LoL Not perfect, just well educated! There is a difference! :o)

- Jamie


Gabriel Cilliers

unread,
Mar 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/7/99
to
Yeah? And people still buy it? Crazy people! Absolutely insane!!!

Lorraine Hill

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Mar 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/8/99
to

This is another thing that the Trading Standards are looking into here in
the UK. Many of the fluffy bedding packages have "COMPLETELY SAFE" or
similar wording on the front of the packages and in very small print on the
back warnings such as "not suitable for baby hamsters", "not suitable for
dwarf hamsters", "not suitable for nursing hamsters" and my own favourite
which just about sums it up .. "if you see your hamster eating this product,
remove it immediately and replace with paper or hay" .. well surely that
means it would be better to use paper or hay in the first place?

Lorraine Hill
The Complete Hamster Site
http://www.hamsters.co.uk


Joel McLellan wrote in message
<21849-36...@newsd-223.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...


I saw a package of the fluff in Kmart the other day and there was a
warning printed on the back of it that it could cause the loss of limbs

in small animals. They probably would not put the warning on there if
they did not have to, as it could cause some people to not buy their
product, and no one is in business to NOT selltheir product.

Lorraine Hill

unread,
Mar 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/8/99
to
Tissue paper, toilet paper or paper towels or any plain paper is fine. If
eaten by the hamster it dissolves in the gut and just passes through the
system causing no harm to the hamster.

Unbleached and Undyed paper is best. If using tissues make sure they are
not coated in anything such as moisturing balm, etc.

Lorraine Hill
The Complete Hamster Site
http://www.hamsters.co.uk

Fung Eng Ming wrote in message <36DF3C3B...@tm.net.my>...


>Thank's Amanda, Nite Jenny and Glen Harman,
>Hopefully you all will not argue coz of my question.
>Thank you very much anyway.
>
>Anyway, I have remove all the fluffy bedding.
>The fluff didn't hurt them, but I know it's better to change it for safety.
>

Lorraine Hill

unread,
Mar 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/9/99
to

For anyone that is still in doubt .. the following message was recently
posted on the Complete Hamster Site Forum ....

"The one that we had that lost the leg (the fluff got tangled around the
back leg and cut off the circulation. The leg turned black.) Anyway, he
would run all around, run on the wheel, like nothing was wrong! You could
hear this clunk, clunk sound when he would be running on the wheel!!"


Rachel Brooks

unread,
Mar 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/9/99
to

Lorraine Hill wrote :

>
>This is another thing that the Trading Standards are looking into here in
>the UK. Many of the fluffy bedding packages have "COMPLETELY SAFE" or
>similar wording on the front of the packages and in very small print on the
>back warnings such as "not suitable for baby hamsters", "not suitable for
>dwarf hamsters", "not suitable for nursing hamsters" and my own favourite
>which just about sums it up .. "if you see your hamster eating this
product,
>remove it immediately and replace with paper or hay" .. well surely that
>means it would be better to use paper or hay in the first place?

On a very similar vein... I saw a nesting material today in the bird section
of a pet shop. It was made of very fine fibres which appeared to be long -
but it was difficult to tell as they were so fine and all mixed up. It said
it was also suitable for mice, hamsters and other small pets, and in small
print (of course) it said that you should take out any long fibres if you
were going to use it with rodents. RIDICULOUS!
RB

>
>Lorraine Hill
>The Complete Hamster Site
>http://www.hamsters.co.uk
>
>

B1Ghair80s

unread,
Mar 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/10/99
to
I think another important issue should be raised. I am not saying all vets do
this but most. Now to me it seems that vets dont have much knowledge of
hamsters. Or even really care about them as much as we do. They think that cats
and dogs are more important than hamsters. Just because hamsters are very
little and most small animals mice, hamsters etc.. are used for lab work and
all that non sense. I have a friend that took her hammy to the vet and they
didnt know what was wrong with it. The vet said the hammy had a vinarial
disease. Which there was no way in u know where ..it couldnt have been
possible. Then the vet gave her medicine and it made the hammy worse. Then she
eventually died. So u tell me. We need more hammy vets, who care about hammys
as much as we do and has more knowledge about hammys. Instead of a vet who
thinks little creatures are just worthless little animals that should only be
used for lab purposes.

Conserned hammy lover

Shawna

I Must Admit

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Mar 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/10/99
to
B1Ghair80s <b1gha...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990310133439...@ng02.aol.com...

There is certainly truth to the point that many vets (including
those who are willing to see them) don't have "adequate" hamster
knowledge/experience. While I'm sure some don't appreciate
or relate to hamsters the way they do cats/dogs, I think there is
more to it than that. I feel safe in saying that most if not nearly all
hamster owners can't or won't pay to have special tests done.
Xrays, ultrasound, blood tests, urine/feces analysis, MRI's, etc...
all are possible but they can get expensive. In many cases people
don't even take their hamsters to the vet, or if they do they wait too
long and so the chances of successfull treatment are nil. In other
cases the stress of the handling/tests/treatments alone kills a sick
hamster and so vets are leary about doing too much to them.

When you add it all up you end up with a self perpetuating
climate where the vets are less likely to end up giving advanced
care to hamsters (or other exotics), so they don't expand upon
the art and get enough practice, then the next time they see a
hamster they are even more less likely to [be able to] get involved
with advanced care, etc, etc. Cats and dogs, being so popular
and a steady source of income, end up in the spotlight.

Its certainly unfortunate and I wish there was a way to improve
the situation, but reality is often undesireable and the best you
can do is try to consider all aspects of it. Oh, and find the most
respected exotic vet in your area and stick with them.

David G. Imber

unread,
Mar 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/11/99
to
On 10 Mar 1999 18:34:39 GMT, b1gha...@aol.com (B1Ghair80s) wrote:

>I think another important issue should be raised. I am not saying all vets do
>this but most. Now to me it seems that vets dont have much knowledge of
>hamsters. Or even really care about them as much as we do. They think that cats
>and dogs are more important than hamsters. Just because hamsters are very
>little and most small animals mice, hamsters etc.. are used for lab work and
>all that non sense. I have a friend that took her hammy to the vet and they
>didnt know what was wrong with it. The vet said the hammy had a vinarial
>disease. Which there was no way in u know where ..it couldnt have been
>possible. Then the vet gave her medicine and it made the hammy worse. Then she
>eventually died. So u tell me. We need more hammy vets, who care about hammys
>as much as we do and has more knowledge about hammys. Instead of a vet who
>thinks little creatures are just worthless little animals that should only be
>used for lab purposes.

What can I say? You're entirely right. I would only suggest that
it's more than just the "low life value" of rodents, due to the fact that
they reproduce in enormous numbers. There's something else at stake.
Cats, and especially dogs are big, big business. For a vet, a dog client
can be an eighteen year client. Similar for a cat. For someone like me,
who's had hamsters all his life, that means nothing. But most people have
one rodent for two years, and there's not much payoff there for a
professional.

The pet food companies pay for lots of research into dog and cat
husbandry. Veterinary colleges get grants for such research because people
will pay almost as much for a dog's care (in many cases) as they would for
their own.

It's not just meanness on the part of vets, it's a matter of
dollars and cents.

E.S.Blatch

unread,
Mar 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/11/99
to
Just on the point of fluffing bedding .....
Does anyone remeber Thalidomide? Or Agent Orange?
Or as in Britain currently BSE?
The governement or large companies often tells us things are okay for
us. And there is always a few voices crying in the dark againsy
something. The 'experts' tell the general public to ignore the worries,
ignore the 'quacks' which worry them. Then it eventually turns out
the'quacks' were right after all, the 'experts' didn't know as much as
they thought. Whoops they go, sorry about the deformed children, sorry
about the people dying in comas or of cancer or of this or that.

Is it not better to be on the safe side, rather than ignoring the little
voice at the back of your head saying I don't really think it is safe.

Perhaps give fluffling bedding the benefit of the doubt, and find out
years later that it was really dangerous, or just avoid it now.

Anyhow, toilet roll paper is far more easily available and well
apprecaited by your hammies, they get to tear it up themselves :)

Lorraine Hill

unread,
Mar 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/11/99
to
Although I agree in part with what you say - vets don't always know a lot
about hamsters .. I have to say this - I was talking to a vet a few years
ago and he was very interested in hamsters and treating them but the problem
he had was that an owner would come with a sick hamster, not sure how to
treat it he would try what he thought a sensible treatment and often the
owner never returned. Now this leaves the vet wondering if the treatment
worked and that is why the owner never came back, or whether the hamster
died and therefore the owner never came back. His problem is next time he
has a hamster with the same problem he is none the wiser.

So I would urge that if anyone takes a hamster to a vet do take the time to
ring your vet afterwards and let them know how the treatment worked (good or
bad) .. it is only by the owners keeping them informed that they can learn
more in these situations.

Lorraine Hill
The Complete Hamster Site
http://www.hamsters.co.uk


B1Ghair80s wrote in message <19990310133439...@ng02.aol.com>...


>I think another important issue should be raised. I am not saying all vets
do
>this but most. Now to me it seems that vets dont have much knowledge of
>hamsters. Or even really care about them as much as we do. They think that
cats
>and dogs are more important than hamsters. Just because hamsters are very
>little and most small animals mice, hamsters etc.. are used for lab work
and
>all that non sense. I have a friend that took her hammy to the vet and they
>didnt know what was wrong with it. The vet said the hammy had a vinarial
>disease. Which there was no way in u know where ..it couldnt have been
>possible. Then the vet gave her medicine and it made the hammy worse. Then
she
>eventually died. So u tell me. We need more hammy vets, who care about
hammys
>as much as we do and has more knowledge about hammys. Instead of a vet who
>thinks little creatures are just worthless little animals that should only
be
>used for lab purposes.
>

>Conserned hammy lover
>
>Shawna

Ruth Muzlish

unread,
Mar 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/25/99
to
Well I've found a vet who is excellent with hamsters. One of my oldest
babies got out of its cage and had a fight with another one through the bars
of the cage. He received quite nasty cuts and bites to all of this body
including his genitalia. The vet gave him an injection of antibiotics and
then I had to give him 1 further drop twice a day for a week. He arranged a
follow up and said that if he was not better I should return with him.
Mind you the cost made up for it. £16.00 for 5 minutes consultation for an
animal no bigger than 25cms. Mind you I love them all and wouldn't be
without them.
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