Mercy Killing
BSHELBY70
I know this is a touchy subject. I told about what we did with Booger
a week or two and after I did, I just winced every time my e-mail flag
came up - I just knew somebody was going to flame me good, but
no one did.
Booger had some kind of horrible - and I mean HORRIBLE - skin
thing. I took him to the vet and spent nearly $100 (it was really $89
because I came & picked him up without the overnight stay). The vet
gave me some stuff to rinse him with, and he wormed him, and did
skin scrapings and mite tests. He had no mites and all the tests were
negative, but he literally screamed with pain when ONE DROP of water
touched him. He was in utter misery. I knew I could not spray him with
that stuff, that he would die with the pain.
My husband uses ether in his work (starting fluid for engines). I had
Boog in the gallon jar where he rested while I cleaned his cage every
day. He was napping in his fuzzy bedding stuff. I knew I could not
let him continue the way he was for another week till his vet appt.
Brian put ether on a 4x4 surgical sponge and Booger went to sleep,
then he gave him a lot more ether and closed the jar lid. My little
feller died in his sleep.
I know how defensive I sound when I explain this each time I tell
what we did. I felt terribly guilty about this. I know it must have
been something in his environment that made him sick but I didn't
think it was fair to have him poked and prodded and scraped again
when he couldn't bear to be touched at all. The vet anesthetized
him to even touch him.
I'd rather the vet had put him to sleep, but I didn't think it was
fair to make him live that way. I don't know if we did right or wrong,
but we did the best for him that we knew to do.
I feel for you right now, I really do.
Becky Young
Becky Young
Little Rock, Arkansas
Rbbrbndgrl
Going to the Vet today to put her down. Being pregnant, I do not want to
experience a half hearted attempt to put her down, by me. My five year old is
planning the funeral, complete with flowers and a headstone!! At least I do
not have to drive through the town with the shoebox on display!!!!
Mary
David G. Imber
On Sun, 26 Oct 1997 05:38:56 GMT, jef...@somewhere.com (ShapeShifter)
wrote:
->yep, sadly I had to put down two baby hampsters which were born with
->only 3 legs.
[clip]
->
->Now I probably sound heartless...I am not.
->
I wouldn't say that, but I must wonder why 3-legged hamsters
had to be destroyed. This physical aberration appears now and then I
know of hamsters missing limbs that lived long and apparently happy
lives.
I am not passing judgement however.
DGI
********************************
David G. Imber
Maniform Creative Services
http://www.maniform.com
********************************
ilambert
THAT'S SICK TO KILL A HAMSTER LIKE THAT BUT I GUESS IT'S BETTER THAT GIVING
IT THE 'FREEZE TREATMENT'
ILAMBERT
E-mail
ilam...@suffolk.lib.ny.us
Lorraine Hill
On Sun, 26 Oct 1997 03:29:15 -0800, bb...@linkline.com (Bryan Byun)
wrote:
>In article <3452f658...@news.ukonline.co.uk>, Lorr...@hamsters.co.uk
>(Lorraine Hill) wrote:
>
>>Also can I urge people not to post messages on the newsgroup about
>>'how to kill a hamster'. We have enough sick people visit this
>>newsgroup from time to time and we don't want to give them ideas on
>>how to kill hamsters - they might just be sick enough to go buy a
>>hamster and to try it.
>
>I agree that the only truly humane way to euthanize a hamster -- for you
>as well as your pet -- is to have a vet do it.
>
>However, it's probable that sickos who would kill a hamster for kicks have
>no trouble coming up with inhumane methods on their own...I don't think
>they would have much interest in learning any _humane_ methods of murder.
>
This subject has come under the newsgroup previously where someone
innocently asked how to humanely destroy a hamster for a genuine
reason. Unfortunately this not only prompted many replies with a
whole range of ways to kill a hamster but most of them were actually
inhumane and contained advice that certainly should not have been
available for the sickos to read but was also not good advice for
those that actually care about hamsters either!
>
>I think it's actually healthy to discuss these issues on the newsgroup --
>it provides an opportunity to get the proper information out there, and
>it's much better than keeping the subject in the dark and fostering
>ignorance. Of course it's an unpleasant topic, but it's also a situation
>most hamster owners confront at some time, so why not have an open
>discussion where experts such as yourself can educate the rest of us?
>
Other reasons this information should not be posted publically is that
it may encourage owners to destroy hamsters themselves as the easy or
cheap option rather than take the hamster to the vet. If the owner is
inexperienced it could well be that a treatable hamster is destroyed
at home. Through misdiagnosis by the owner a hamster could be
unnecessarily destroyed if the knowledge of how to do so was
publically posted. It is also very difficult to diagnose with any
certainty illness across a newsgroup so no matter how well meaning
advice to owners of sick hamsters is it is always best for the owner
to visit a vet anyway and if destruction is needed it can be carried
out after confirmation by the vet that it is needed and carried out
humanely by the vet.
In addition many owners (I hasten to add this is not how I regard the
owners generally in this newsgroup - but refer more to 'visitors' to
the newsgroup) may consider the hamster a disposable pet and with the
knowledge of how to euthanaise a hamster themselves may be carrying
this out at the first sign of illness, and buying a new hamster - as
this is often a much cheaper option that treating the hamster for the
illness.
If anyone does have a genuine need to know how to humanely destroy a
hamster I am happy to discuss this in private emails but I would
always stress that even the most humane 'home method' does not compare
to lethal injection by a vet and can be very distressing for the owner
and so is not to be undertaken lightly. I do not, and from the
previous occasion that this subject came up nor do the majority of the
regulars on this newsgroup, agree that methods of home euthanaisia
should be posted on newsgroups that are public to all.
Lorraine
The Complete Hamster Site
http://www.hamsters.co.uk
Lorraine Hill
>On 21 Oct 1997 03:56:57 GMT, rbbrb...@aol.com (Rbbrbndgrl) wrote:
>
>> Okay touchy topic here, but has anyone had to put down a hamster themselves?
>> Is there a humane way to accomplish this? I am pregnant, and very emotional,
>> and generally a nonviolent person, : ) therefore a rock drop, freezing, and
>> spine breaking are out of the question. I was looking for a poison, or a
>> inhalant to let her fall asleep. I was trying to find a cheap method, how much
>> do vets charge for putting a hamster down?
>> Clover has a stomach tumor, she has lived about two years. Are tumors
>> common? Is there anything that can be done to prevent tumors with the next
>> hamster?
>> Thanks,
>> Mary
>----------------------
>yep, sadly I had to put down two baby hampsters which were born with
>only 3 legs.
>
>I did it the most painless way I knew how. I drowned them. apparently
>I am told drowning is not painful. I didn't make me feel good about
>the whole procedure but it could not bring myself to break their necks
>which also would have been swift and painless (although, being dwarf
>hampster babies, it would have been difficult).
>
>Now I probably sound heartless...I am not.
>
>http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/9699
>
Drowning is not a humane way to kill a hamster. It can take several
minutes for a full grown hamster to be killed in this way and is very
distressing to the hamster..
Also can I urge people not to post messages on the newsgroup about
'how to kill a hamster'. We have enough sick people visit this
newsgroup from time to time and we don't want to give them ideas on
how to kill hamsters - they might just be sick enough to go buy a
hamster and to try it.
There are humane 'home methods' of killing a hamster but these are
distressing to the owner and the best method is always lethal
injection by a vet.
Bryan Byun
>Also can I urge people not to post messages on the newsgroup about
>'how to kill a hamster'. We have enough sick people visit this
>newsgroup from time to time and we don't want to give them ideas on
>how to kill hamsters - they might just be sick enough to go buy a
>hamster and to try it.
I agree that the only truly humane way to euthanize a hamster -- for you
as well as your pet -- is to have a vet do it.
However, it's probable that sickos who would kill a hamster for kicks have
no trouble coming up with inhumane methods on their own...I don't think
they would have much interest in learning any _humane_ methods of murder.
I think it's actually healthy to discuss these issues on the newsgroup --
it provides an opportunity to get the proper information out there, and
it's much better than keeping the subject in the dark and fostering
ignorance. Of course it's an unpleasant topic, but it's also a situation
most hamster owners confront at some time, so why not have an open
discussion where experts such as yourself can educate the rest of us?
________________________________
Bryan Byun € bb...@linkline.com
---------------------------------------
http://www.linkline.com/personal/bbyun/
---------------------------------------
Visit my Rejection Slips page at
http://www.linkline.com/personal/bbyun/rejection/
_________________________________
Corinna and Brent
I'm going to be a classic fence-sitter here -
While I agree with Lorraine, that we shouldn't really talk about HOW
to kill your hamster, I do think it is important that this subject is
dealt with. When do you know that it's the right time. That the BEST
way to end your hamster's suffering is by taking them to the vet. And
how you feel about it. We should talk about that - because a lot of
the hamster owners out here are younger people.. and it is pretty
traumatic to lose a little friend...
corinna
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Lorraine Hill
On Mon, 27 Oct 1997 04:49:48 GMT, bad...@NOSPAMdirect.ca (Corinna and
Brent) wrote:
>I'm going to be a classic fence-sitter here -
>
>While I agree with Lorraine, that we shouldn't really talk about HOW
>to kill your hamster, I do think it is important that this subject is
>dealt with. When do you know that it's the right time. That the BEST
>way to end your hamster's suffering is by taking them to the vet. And
>how you feel about it. We should talk about that - because a lot of
>the hamster owners out here are younger people.. and it is pretty
>traumatic to lose a little friend...
>
>
>corinna
It is always difficult to assess when a hamster should be put to sleep
and many illnesses 'look worse than they are' and the initial fear of
the owner may be that the hamster is near its end when in fact the
illness could be simply treated by antibiotics. The only real way to
be sure is to seek veterinary advice in the first place.
The vet will advise whether the hamster is treatable, is not treatable
and whether or not it is in pain. If the animal is not treatable but
is not suffering although ill there is no need to euthanaise it.
If these owner's knew how to euthanaise a hamster they may have ended
a life that need not have been ended. A vet is always the best source
of advice and the best option for ending any hamster's suffering.
Glen Harman
>If anyone does have a genuine need to know how to humanely destroy a
>hamster I am happy to discuss this in private emails but I would
>always stress that even the most humane 'home method' does not compare
>to lethal injection by a vet and can be very distressing for the owner
I question wether injection is the most humane. Needles hurt. I had
one
put to sleep and they (supposedly) used gas of some sort. Thoughts?
Lorraine Hill
On Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:38:25 -0500, "Glen Harman" <gha...@dc.net>
wrote:
Yes injections are painful but the hamster is usually injected to a
loose bit of skin so it is not as painful as injecting elsewhere. An
overdose of anaesthetic gas would be less painful.
Lorraine Hill
On Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:37:45 -0800, Ross Archer <dog...@mindless.com>
wrote:
>The protocols governing the use and destruction of laboratory animals
>show that humane euthanasia is NOT EASY TO ACHIEVE and requires
>highly toxic substances or gasses or controlled substances available
>only to medical doctors, or techniques requiring medical training to
>perform.
>Rest assured the labs are not spending all this money to
>end the life of their lab animals out of the goodness of their hearts...
>it really is required, because a botched euthanasia can cause
>terrible suffering to the animal and may cause injury to the
>people in the immediate environment if chemicals, etc escape.
>(Think about it... many poisons they use are capable of killing humans
>as well!) To my mind, nothing
>you could do at home would be 1/20th as humane or safe as a lethal
>injection by a vet...
>
There are ways of carrying out euthanasia requiring easily accessible
items, not necessitating medical training to perform and not
presenting any danger to owners (which is one of the reasons that I do
not wish to divulge ways and means on public boards, because it is
'easy').
But I would agree that a 'home euthanasia' is not quite as humane as
lethal injection by a vet which is why I always stress that this is
the best way to end a hamster's suffering. Home methods are also
distressing to the owner and dealing with the loss of a pet is hard
enough without the added 'guilt' of whether you did the right thing,
wondering if you carried out the euthanasia correctly resulting in
minimal suffering for the hamster, whether the hamster could have in
fact been treated.
A vet is able to reassure first of all that euthanasia is indeed
necessary, and is able to take responsibility for the action, the
owner is re-assured that the hamster suffered as little as possible
and so only left with feelings of grief and not guilt and worry.
MaresMinis
I agree completely with Lorraine. There is no need to discuss the methods of
mercy killing over this open news group. Lorraine has offered to discuss this
with you via e-mail directly. One of our missions should be to encourage
people to understand that hamsters are not disposable pets and they deserve
perfessional health care much as other larger pets.
I believe this newsgroup is a wonderful forum in which to educate those who
have an interest in hamsters and a vehicle by which we can all share and
celebrate the joys of these little guys.
Dick and the sublime Muffin
Sven
It can be done MUCH more quickly, and therefore humanely, and free of
charge with a sizeable (LARGE) stone against a hard surface.
I hope my own death is like this, rather than by a "lethal injection" or
in a jar of gas, or other such unnatural cause.
Bryan Byun
I find the above method revolting, but that raises an interesting issue.
How much of "mercy killing" is really mercy for the pet owner rather than
the pet? Squeamish creatures, we humans. We sometimes choose methods of
death for their decorum rather than their effectiveness.
Most hamster lovers -- me, anyway -- would recoil at the idea of killing a
hamster by smashing it with a heavy object (and in fact I would argue that
this is not an advisable way, as one might waver at the last second, and
throw off one's aim or strike too lightly). Yet I'm not sure that this is
less "humane" than being pierced with a sharp needle and left to sink into
oblivion as your mind fills with pain and fear at the unfamiliar
sensations and growing darkness of oncoming death.
I guess it's a reminder of the "human" in humane -- we're talking about
methods that we can stomach, not ones that are necessarily the quickest or
most painless. After all, if one were to kill a hamster in some horrific
way right in front of another hamster, do you think the other hamster
would react with even a fraction of the horror that a human might?
No way. If anything, the hamster would hop away with momentary alarm and
then calmly start nibbling on the dead hamster. Animals don't have
morality, they have instincts. (As a shamelessly sentimental hamster
lover who anthropomorphizes his pets and thinks of them as little people,
I'm constantly having to reconcile my rosy view with the grim reality of
mothers eating their young and hamsters chewing each others' heads off in
fights.)
Meanwhile, our concern is that the body remain intact -- in other words,
the focus is more on external appearances than what's going on inside the
hamster. We're grossed out by gore, therefore any gory killing method
must be inhumane and sick -- even if it's faster and less painful than
other, cleaner methods.
I'm NOT arguing for smashing hamsters with stones, btw. Very much against
that for the reason I stated, among others. I just think it's interesting
how, in some cases, we're willing to put a dying pet through fractionally
more suffering in order to protect our own sensibilities.
And if I had to choose the method of my own demise, I would prefer to be
flattened (suddenly, of course, and without warning) by a 16 ton weight
and be killed instantly, my brain pulped before it could even register
pain, rather than sinking gradually into the abyss as my mind flailed
desperately for consciousness, or choking to death in a noxious, gaseous
haze. However, I would pray that whoever was wielding that weight would
have good aim and a steady hand.
ObDisclaimer: I'm aware that there may be completely pain- and
discomfort-free *and* bloodless methods of euthanasia, and this is
definitely not an argument against vet-assisted euthanasia, in case anyone
gets that impression.
Bryan Byun
In article <19971030061...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
mares...@aol.com (MaresMinis) wrote:
>I agree completely with Lorraine. There is no need to discuss the methods of
> mercy killing over this open news group. Lorraine has offered to discuss this
> with you via e-mail directly. One of our missions should be to encourage
> people to understand that hamsters are not disposable pets and they deserve
> perfessional health care much as other larger pets.
I have to agree, too, that posting methods of do-it-yourself mercy killing
is unnecessary and counterproductive. However, I would say that
discussing the topic of euthanasia itself is in fact a vital and necessary
topic of conversation for a hamster-related newsgroup. Hamsters can be
fragile creatures and death is an inevitable and not uncommon part of the
experience of owning one. It's an uncomfortable topic, to be sure, but
whether we talk about it or not it's an issue many of us have to confront
at some time, so in a way we should be glad that the question of "mercy
killing methods" comes up from time to time, so that the _proper_
information can be distributed to people who might otherwise remain in
ignorance.
Corinna and Brent
Bryan,
Interesting posting....
However, as most people who own hamsters are not experts with
vetrinary science, I strongly suggest to anyone who feels that their
hamster is terminally ill, to take their hamster to a vet. Although
we may all feel that a prick of a needle may be a slight pain before
the hamster dies, it is better to have the hamster viewed by an expert
than to be killed prematurely.
Consider the pain that the animal is in prior to the decision being
made to put them down. Why has this decision been made by the owner?
Is the hamster ill? Chances are, that the condition of the hamster
is such that when they are given the final needle, they are in pain
from their condition that the needle is the least of their worries.
Also, I have to stress that a hamster can be in pain, but not
terminal. Our little escape artist, Shreddie is not particularly
bright, and she has on several occasions leaped from our dining room
table. (she RUNS to the edge and leaps off before we can get to her),
well once she landed badly on a leg, and broke it. She was in a lot
of pain. The vet couldn't do anything for her (she's knaw off any
cast), but she would hobble around and growl. She did heal in time
and with a lot of TLC, but how many hamster owners would feel that she
was in too much pain, and would put her down? And, if they chose to
do it themselves, they are robbing their hamster a final check-up by a
vet who could possibly save their lives by pointing out that they will
get better.
I think I have stated this before in a posting - I wouldn't want to
rob a larger pet (cat, dog) of that last visit to a vet, why would I
neglect a hamster?? They ARE NOT disposable pets. As with dogs,
cats, horses, pigs, snakes, hamsters are a pet for life - for THEIR
LIFE. When I purchase a pet, I assume responsibility for their life,
and to provide the pest care that I possibly can. That includes the
best care that I can provide in the last days of their life.
Corinna
Lorraine Hill
On Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:06:56 GMT, mw...@netcom.com (Margaret Woo) wrote:
>In article <345df98...@news.direct.ca>,
>Corinna and Brent <bad...@NOSPAMdirect.ca> wrote:
>>
>>I think I have stated this before in a posting - I wouldn't want to
>>rob a larger pet (cat, dog) of that last visit to a vet, why would I
>>neglect a hamster?? They ARE NOT disposable pets. As with dogs,
>>cats, horses, pigs, snakes, hamsters are a pet for life - for THEIR
>>LIFE. When I purchase a pet, I assume responsibility for their life,
>>and to provide the pest care that I possibly can. That includes the
>>best care that I can provide in the last days of their life.
>>
>>
>>Corinna
>
>Thank you for your words, Corinna. When I decided to put my beloved
>Hammrietta down, it was a really hard decision. She was very ill, was
>unresponsive and lethargic, and was obviously in pain. I took her to the
>vet, and the vet told me that he *could* help her, but it would only extend
>her life a few days and would not take her out of the pain she was in.
>
>Had I not taken her to the vet, I would not have known what my options
>were. I would not have known if her ailment was treatable or if she
>was truly without hope. My vet let *me* make the choice for her treatment,
>but armed me with the facts. I chose to end her life to spare her any
>further pain.
>
>Margaret
>
By consulting the vet you were able to make an informed decision on
the future of your hamster and when euthanasia was carried out the vet
took responsibility for ensuring that your hamster's suffering was
kept to a minimum.
If you had euthanaised the hamster yourself I am sure you would have
been wondering 'did I do the right thing', 'what if it was treatable',
'did the hamster suffer at the end' and such like.
A vet will always advise on the best way forward, removing any guilt
from yourself and you can rest easy knowing that what you did was the
kindest thing you could have done for your pet.
Lorraine Hill
On Mon, 03 Nov 1997 16:31:19 GMT, bad...@NOSPAMdirect.ca (Corinna and
Brent) wrote:
>Bryan,
>
>Interesting posting....
>
>
>However, as most people who own hamsters are not experts with
>vetrinary science, I strongly suggest to anyone who feels that their
>hamster is terminally ill, to take their hamster to a vet. Although
>we may all feel that a prick of a needle may be a slight pain before
>the hamster dies, it is better to have the hamster viewed by an expert
>than to be killed prematurely.
>
If anyone really considers that they would not wish to have their
hamster euthanaised by lethal injection by a vet most vets would have
the facilities and would probably be willing to euthanaise a hamster
from an overdose of anaesthetic gas - all you need do is ask if you
really object to a lethal injection.
>Consider the pain that the animal is in prior to the decision being
>made to put them down. Why has this decision been made by the owner?
>Is the hamster ill? Chances are, that the condition of the hamster
>is such that when they are given the final needle, they are in pain
>from their condition that the needle is the least of their worries.
>
>Also, I have to stress that a hamster can be in pain, but not
>terminal. Our little escape artist, Shreddie is not particularly
>bright, and she has on several occasions leaped from our dining room
>table. (she RUNS to the edge and leaps off before we can get to her),
>well once she landed badly on a leg, and broke it. She was in a lot
>of pain. The vet couldn't do anything for her (she's knaw off any
>cast), but she would hobble around and growl. She did heal in time
>and with a lot of TLC, but how many hamster owners would feel that she
>was in too much pain, and would put her down? And, if they chose to
>do it themselves, they are robbing their hamster a final check-up by a
>vet who could possibly save their lives by pointing out that they will
>get better.
>
It is surprising the number of owners that think their hamster is
'terminal' (in their opinion) but find when consulting a vet it is
indeed a minor treatable illness. Most hamster owners do not have
the experience necessary to be able to give a 100% certain diagnosis
of their hamster's illness and prognosis and so veterinary advice is
best sought.
Corinna and Brent
>Asphyxia using ether, nitrogen, helium, argon, etc. is painless. The
>subject goes to sleep and then dies. But carbon dioxide should not be
>used because it is a noxious choking gas.
I have to ask - why bother pointing all this out?
Before all potential hamster owners decide to run out and supply
themselves with nitrogen, helium, etc., why don't we think about what
is best for your hamster!
Who out there would really 1) want to administer the death of their
hamster (whether it be via gas, smashing them with a brick or
whatever) 2) feel as though they are qualified to make the decision
that their hamster is indeed terminal AND in pain and 3) deal with the
potential guilt of wondering if the death they dealt to their hamster
was indeed painless and timely. I mean, do you know that your hamster
won't go through agonizing moments that actually seem like hours of
burning gas entering their lungs?
And, if you have a child who loves this hamster, how do you think they
are going to feel about you? Oh, the hamster's sick, we can't deal
with it, let's kill it. If my parents killed my hamster in this
situation, I would certainly worry the next time I got sick!
So, please please please - TAKE YOUR HAMSTER TO A VET!! Let your vet
give you the options before you decide to kill him or her. Your
hamster has been your friend, don't you think you owe your hamster at
least that?
Corinna
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Corinna and Brent
Obviously this is all a question of personal ethics, and I can only
answer for myself:
>Questions for a philosphoical discussion about the value of hamsters.....
>
>1) Hamsters, rats, and other rodents cost about $5. How much is it wise
>to spend to fix one up if it becomes ill?
It depends upon how much weight you put on the individual life as
opposed to money.
As soon as we start putting money ahead of the animal that we have
made a bargain to take care of for the rest of its life, we become no
better than a puppy mill. This is an organization that buys a few
purebred dogs and breeds them everytime the female comes in heat, the
puppies are taken away before they should be (before they should be
weened), and the sanitary conditions are usually appaulling. People
who run puppymills do not want to invest anything into the dogs that
they raise, because that will decrease their profit margin, so the
dogs and puppies will often end up with terrible diseases, mange, and
genetic disorders (they will not spend the time or money to ensure
that they are breeding the best quality dogs together). As an active
member of the Bloodhound Bunch, I have heard of and SEEN dogs that
have been raised in such conditions. They are generally terrified,
carry horrible scars (physical and psychological) and do not resemble
a top quality dog of that breed. It's horrible.
Money should NEVER come before a life. If you can't afford to give
the proper care to your animal, don't get one.
>
>2) Do hamsters have personalities? As much as a dog? More than a snail?
>Is personality a measure of worth? Should you take a snail to the vet?
My own definition of personality is the little querks that each of us
have that makes us different from others.
Yes. I think that hamsters and snails and dogs have personalities,
however their personality (or what we perceive of it) is relative to
the body size and their role in the whole scheme of things.
A dog is a pack animal (wolves), whereas a hamster is a loner. A
dog, therefore has a more ingrained social system which we humans can
relate to. A hamster is a prey animal who operates on instincts much
of the time, and has developed many personality traits (their
nochturnalness) due to both their environment and in being a prey
animal.
I do not think it is the personality that is the measure of worth.
Instead, I think it is OUR bonding towards that animal that makes them
special. If I bonded with a snail, then yes, I would take the snail
into the vet, whether I paid money for that snail, or found it in the
garden. To me, the absolute last thing that defines worth of a being
(human or animal) is money.
My family and myself spent probably close to $1000 to try to help Tom
(my cat) when he was dying of kidney failure/stomich cancer. At that
point, we didn't know that he was terminal. If we hadn't have been
so caught up in our very human-train of wanting to prolong life
because of our emotions, then we probably would have noticed that he
had told us all along (in his own way) that his time was up. but
that's a different subject.. The point is that he meant (means) more
to myself and my family than that money. Oh sure, we could have
bought stuff with that money, but honestly, what stuff replaces the
love you have for anything? The love for your parents, the love for
your lover, the love for your children and yes, the love for your pet.
No amount of money in the world can replace that.
Many people will not agree with me putting my love for the animals in
my life on the same level as love for humans, but that's the way it is
for me. I don't love them all the same, but in a way I do. I cry
whenever a hamster dies, I still cry when I think of my cat Tom who
died two years ago, and I cry when I think about my dog Charlie, who
died eighteen years ago. No, I'm not a weepy person.. but when I
think about them, I miss them and I cry for my loss.
>
>3) A burned dog was recently fixed up at a cost of $30,000. Was it worth
>it? If not, then why not? If so, then why?
It was worth it on many different levels. First of all, what I
mentioned above. What is money? It's just a way to aquire things.
And who in the world can say that they can put a price on love.
Second of all, saving that dog represents how we as a society deal
with the down-and-out. If a person is willing to walk by a burned
dog, then do you think they will have more compassion for a person
laying in the street?
I often find myself getting angry with people in the news or whatever
who put their greed and their desire to participate in the comsumer
orgies above the qualiy of life of the whole. It's sad that our
society puts McShopping above the selfless act of helping others. I
suppose if someone was to ask me the meaning of life, buying things
would not be up there. Helping others would.
>
>4) Discuss the following: if an animal is nice to me and I am fond of it,
>then it is a beloved pet. If an animal is unfriendly or I don't like it,
>then I can kill it, grind it up and eat it, or make a fur from it.
I can't relate to that, as I'm one of the people who have always been
aware of society's fixation with warm and fuzzy things. I mean, if
the average person were to "rate" animals, they would put the warm and
fuzzy far above the spiders, the rats, the snails and the turtles.
Look how many Americans responded to the idea of the reintroduction of
wolves into Yellowstone Park? They freaked! Wolves are bad, wolves
are evil. Sorry folks, wolves are simply doing what they do, and if
anyone is evil, it is humans for putting labels on animals (and
humans) who just are. Yes, wolves kill. Yes, wolves eat meat and
will often have blood dripping from their mouths. However, if wolves
didn't kill and didn't eat, they wouldn't exist. And if we people
managed to get rid of all the predators, how many prey animals would
be around? Lots. And then there would be a massive die-out.
ok, I went off topic, but my point is that I don't judge animals
(well, ok, I'll be honest, I hate spiders and those really long green
slugs..)
As a person who eats meat (I do NOT believe that I am a hypocrite, as
I view humans as being omnivours), I don't personally know the animals
that I eat, but I also make a point of investing into the well-being
of these animals by purchasing free-range chickens, etc.
>
>5) Children on farms often see household animals slaughtered. Are parents
>abusing their children by letting them see this? Does this cold-hearted
>attitude toward animals also get directed at people?
This is not abuse. In fact, if these children are taught properlly,
they may end up having more respect for life and for death than many
of the children who grow up without that contact to the dirty end of
the food chain.
Many kids in the city believe that pets are like a tamagucci and are
disposable when you lose interest. They don't realize that death is
ugly and real. They don't realize where their pets came from or where
they will go when they are finished with them.
I know that I'm generalizing, but the farmers _I know_ have more
respect for the animals that they subsequently slaughter than any city
born and raised vegetarian (that _I know_) who is a vegetarian "for
the right reasons".
The difference is when the animals lose their identity as animals and
become a crop.
>
>6) Are hamsters friends, or are hamsters living toys?
As my hamster knows me, and responds posatively to me (when I walk in
a room, she runs to the bars of her cage...perhaps for food, but
perhaps for interaction), I would say that she is a friend. When
Brent and I have gone away for long periods (but left Shreddie with a
friend of ours), she SEEMS to be happy to have us back when we return.
>
>7) Millions of abandoned pets are killed each year. Which is best: fix
>up an old pet for a few more years, (and let an abandoned one be killed),
>or kill the old one, and acquire an abandoned one?
to rephrase this, millions of unwanted babies are born each year. Is
it better to activing euthenize people over the age of 65 and those
who are ill to make room for these children?
Or, is it better to adopt a dog from a petstore whom you KNOW
purchases from puppy mills to save the individual dog, or to let that
dog suffer, in hopes that the puppymill will be put out of business
and thus decrease the number of dogs that are brought up in filth and
abuse and to instead adopt an older dog from your local SPCA to save
it from being gased as an unwanted stray? (*by the way - if anyone
wants to know about puppy mills, e-mail me private, it's a horror
story).
>
>
>Bob Erck
Good questions, Bob!
MaresMinis
Dear S. Miller:
You have our everlasting respect for the wonderful care you are giving Gerald.
It is heartening to read that other people feel as we do that hamsters are not
disposable pets. One of the great benefits of this news group is meeting all
the people who take such marvelous care of their little guys. As can be seen,
there is no correlation between size and caring.
Regards,
Dick, Marilyn and the sublime Muffin
Steen Goddik
On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Robert Erck wrote:
> Questions for a philosphoical discussion about the value of hamsters.....
I will take a stab at this one.
> 1) Hamsters, rats, and other rodents cost about $5. How much is it wise
> to spend to fix one up if it becomes ill?
We all do lots of things that costs us money, without getting any monetary
benefits from them. A major one is having children. Another big one is
bying a car/computer/tennis shoe etc. more expensive than what you
absolutely need. Money are not the all-determining factor to our actions,
unless we don't have any. In that frame of reference, a hamster is not
likely to break the budget, and other, more intrinsic values and feelings
take over. So yes! It is worth it to spend as much as you can afford.
> 2) Do hamsters have personalities? As much as a dog? More than a snail?
> Is personality a measure of worth? Should you take a snail to the vet?
I feel that our hamsters have personalities. They are, for sure all
different, and react to us and their surroundings with a wide variety of
activities. Each one have that certain thing (or those certain things),
that makes them special and lovable (Sorry to introduce non-measurable
factors into the evaluation, but they are essential).
> 3) A burned dog was recently fixed up at a cost of $30,000. Was it worth
> it? If not, then why not? If so, then why?
It is not whether it would be worth it to us, but rather if it was worth
it to the owner. In that case, it obviously was, since the owner paid the
money. So yes. It was worth it.
> 4) Discuss the following: if an animal is nice to me and I am fond of it,
> then it is a beloved pet. If an animal is unfriendly or I don't like it,
> then I can kill it, grind it up and eat it, or make a fur from it.
This sounds like one of the questions that the hunter/AR debates starts
from, and I don't think anybody here in this news group should answer it,
unless we want to see alt.pets.hamsters destroyed like some of the other
news groups on the net (just take a look at rec.animals.wildlife to see
what I mean). We each and all act as we feel our morals/opinions etc lets
us. I will leave it at that. If you want any more, please e-mail me
directly instead, but please take a look at rec.animals.wildlife
first, and see if you really want to see that kind of venomous debate
here.
> 5) Children on farms often see household animals slaughtered. Are parents
> abusing their children by letting them see this? Does this cold-hearted
> attitude toward animals also get directed at people?
I grew up on a farm, and I have butchered lots of animals myself. Again,
it matters how you feel about the animal. Farming gives you a business
attitude towards animal husbandry, but this has absolutely nothing to do
with pets. Additionally, the farm population is now quite small, and I
only know of a couple of people here, who live in a farming environment,
so it is not that applicable here.
Again, if you want anything further, you are welcome to e-mail me
directly.
> > 6) Are hamsters friends, or are hamsters living toys? >
As with all pets, they are either to different people.
> 7) Millions of abandoned pets are killed each year. Which is best: fix
> up an old pet for a few more years, (and let an abandoned one be killed),
> or kill the old one, and acquire an abandoned one?
Not that many hamsters show up abandoned, although it does happen. For
sure, several ends up being unwanted and given away.
Again, you are asking, as if emotional attachment to the pet you have in
your hand has no more value than any other hamster. Again, I must insist
on introducing intrinsic values. I would NEVER give up any hamster of
ours, and only cause its mercy killing if it was suffering without any
prospect of getting better, simply because I have become very attached to
each of them. We did recently acquire an extra hamster who was destined
for an uncertain fate, and we have not regretted any moment of it. This
did not cause us to love any of our other hamsters any less, and we did
not have to get rid of any of them instead. Rather, where there is a
will, there is a way.
That said, I will definitely encourage everybody to look at whether it
isn't advisable to spay/neuter your cats and dogs ??
Sincerely,
Steen Goddik
sgo...@sunflowr.edu.com
"Naar moderen fryser, faar barnet en ekstra sweater paa"
"When the parent is freezing, the child gets an extra sweater on"
Glenn Chappell
In article <bob_erck-041...@et212pc113.et.anl.gov>, Robert Erck wrote:
>1) Hamsters, rats, and other rodents cost about $5. How much is it wise
>to spend to fix one up if it becomes ill?
Before the advent of decent doctors, hospital births, etc., baby humans
used to be free (even cheaper than baby hamsters).
Cost is not a good measure of responsibility, which is the real
question here. When you adopt a pet or a baby, you are taking
responsibility for that animal/human. Don't get me wrong: the
responsibility is certainly greater in the case of a human,
and I would be willing to spend quite a bit more to save my child
than my hamster.
--
Glenn G. Chappell <>< * gcha...@semovm.semo.edu
Department of Mathematics * Office: 573-651-2776
Southeast Missouri State University * Fax: 573-651-2223
Web: http://www2.semo.edu/chappell/ * Home: 573-339-7996
Rbbrbndgrl
>And, if you have a child who loves this hamster, how do you think they
>are going to feel about you? Oh, the hamster's sick, we can't deal
>with it, let's kill it. If my parents killed my hamster in this
>situation, I would certainly worry the next time I got sick!
>
>So, please please please - TAKE YOUR HAMSTER TO A VET!! Let your vet
>give you the options before you decide to kill him or her. Your
>hamster has been your friend, don't you think you owe your hamster at
>least that?
>
>
>
>Corinna
Corinna,
Don't you think in some circumstances mercy killing is a valid solution.
Children need to learn that killing an animal in pain is often the best thing
to do. In my opinion, mercy killing is part of the pet ownership experience.
Twice I have had to put an animal down, and both times my 5 year old son was
with me. We had proper burials, and discussions about death. I look at the
pet's death as a preluded to a future death of someone (humane ) close to my
son. Our discussions have included terminal versus curable diseases, and the
difference between animal life value, and human life value, (is that statmenet
going to start a flame war?) Animal ownership is a responsbility, and part of
that includes the animal's death.
Mary
Phoenie
> Don't you think in some circumstances mercy killing is a valid solution.
> Children need to learn that killing an animal in pain is often the best
>thing
> to do.
Well, I'm not Corinna, but I agree, yes there are indeed many instances where
euthanasia of a pet is warranted, however I feel it should not be taken
lightly (like, "oh, it's only a $6 hamster") but carefully considered, as
should what constitutes reasonable treatment of medical conditions in a pet.
Example:
We have had three hamsters die in the last five months or so. Pinky, a Syrian,
and Pesto, a Russian Dwarf were two of them. Both had tumors. We tried to
treat Pinky through surgery, treatment failed and we had her euthanized, we
opted to forgo surgery for Pesto and let her die naturally. Opposite
decisions, very different situations.
Pinky was two an a half years old, Syrians can reasonable be expected to live
to three. She was bleeding profusely from the vagina, her behavior was
changing, and she seemed to be in some discomfort. The diagnosis was a tumor
on her uterus, we could have surgery done to perform a hysterectomy. The
doctor opened her up, saw she was full of tumors, closed her back up, told us,
and we asked him to euthanize her, as there was nothing to be done.
Pesto was a 1 year eight month old dwarf, dwarves can reasonably be expected to
live to two. She had a mammary tumor which appeared to cause her no
discomfort, it just looked bad. As dwarves are considerably smaller than
Syrians and more likely to die from the shock of surgery (plus, let's be
honest, there is only so much human hands attached to a human brain can do in
small surroundings) and mammary tumors frequently spread slowly and don't
necessarily metastize readily, we opted against surgery, but medicated her
with pregisone daily to keep her comfortable. She lived another two an a half
months, never exhibited any pain or discomfort, and died quietly in her sleep.
Different situations. In Pinky's case, she was in discomfort, surgery could be
reasonably expected to succeed, and she likely would have gained an extra six
months. Pesto was in no discomfort, surgery would likely have been worse than
the disease, and her life would up being a month and a half less than the
average. BTW, we agreed to have Pesto euthanized immediately if she showed
discomfort.
Sorry for the long post, but it illustrates what I'm trying to say, that
hamsters shouldn't be treated as disposable, but truly looking out for their
welfare does not mean pulling out all the stops on medical treatment every
time.
Matthew K. White a.k.a pho...@aol.com & matthe...@sw.boeing.com
Don't tell me to stop acting silly... because I'm not acting!