Looking for a lab breeder in California
Tim Chong
A friend of a friend of a friend (whew) is looking for a reputable lab
breeder in Southern Cailfornia, L.A. to be more specific. Since I live in
Central California, I really can't help out.
So here I am, on my knees....... NO! I'm not begging! I'm looking for my
contacts under my desk. LOL
Anyway, I thought I could help out.
Tim and Ashstone's Jumping Jubilance, Hallie
Monterey, California
www.members.tripod.com/timotheus06
Kim Beverly
You have one of Cheryl's pups I see. Try this link:
http://www.io.com/~tittle/LRCSC/
Cheers
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Kim Beverly
Pirate Labradors Perm Reg'd
Sutton ON Canada
Art Kesler
research, we bought our Lab pup, Bryn, a yellow female, a year ago from
AAA Labs in Ontario, California. You can find out about them and their
Labs at http://www.aaalabs.com. We highly recommend them. Folks come
from all over the country to get their pups. Visit their web site. If
you call or e-mail them, tell them Art & Kathy Kesler and Bryn sent you.
Tim Chong
Wow, I've never personally met her in person, but everybody else I know has
heard of her.
P.S. Thanks for the link
Tim and Ashstone's Jumping Jubilance, Hallie
Monterey, California
www.members.tripod.com/timotheus06
"Kim Beverly" <pir...@netrover.com> wrote in message
news:xzXZ5.98771$Z2.11...@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
Brandon
epitomize "backyard breeding". Never in my life have I seen such an
un-reputable breeder just in it for the money (as it states on their web
page so as not to slander). When they have 6 litters of puppies almost
always at the same time how can they give enough attention. I would
*seriously* watch out for them, especially since they let their pups go at
the tender age of 6 weeks. Any reputable breeder should wait until at least
8 weeks before letting them go. I would definitely not recommend them as
most "reputable" breeders would. Any breeder who is scrupulous will tell you
buying from them is not the way to go. I am not saying they produce bad pups
or anything like that, although in all likelihood they're not as
"even-tempered" as reputable breeder, I'm just saying their breeding ethics
are not straight.
I hope you like my non-partisan answer (LOL),
Brandon
"Art Kesler" <kes...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3A3846C8...@ix.netcom.com...
Art Kesler
get our new puppy. We heard some of the same statements you made. Had
some of the same thoughts. But instead of just assuming these were bad
traits in a breeder we asked for names and phone numbers of people who
bought their pups. Our conversation with these owners were very
reassuring. Good dogs. Good breeder. These were the opinions of
customers, not competing breeders.
Let me address some of your points directly:
"In it for the money." Heh. None of the breeders we visited were
willing to GIVE us a pup. They wouldn't even let one go at "cost" (that
is, just let us give you what it has cost you so far to get the puppy to
give-away age). They all were asking the market "going price" of around
$500 each. Honestly, what breeder doesn't think "10 pups at $500 each
equals $5,000 - not bad numbers, eh?). Maybe there's a Web page listing
breeders willing to give away there pups just because they are proud of
them? And the better the pups the faster they want to give them away?
"6 litters almost always." This is like saying don't go into a
restaurant because it is always crowded. Or don't shop at such-and-such
a store because it is always full of people. The presence of people in
a restaurant or a store is a good sign that there is something good
inside. Good food. Good prices. Good product. Breeding is the same.
Being busy is a good sign. People want these pups. They recommend this
breeder. If you had folks standing in line for your product you too
would figure out how to increase production while maintaining its
quality. And if you didn't maintain quality your sales would drop off.
There are waiting lists for these pups. The quality is there. Ask the
folks who stood in line to get the pups!
"Let their puppies go at 6 weeks..." This is really an area of
controversy. We have several great books on getting and raising a pup.
The authors don't agree. "Forty-nine days" (7 weeks) claims one
respected author. "Eight weeks is best" claims another. "Take them at
six" claims a third. All you can be sure of is you should certainly get
your pup at somewhere between six and eight weeks of age. Nobody seems
to say under five. Nobody seems to say over nine. The magic number is
a range of six to eight.
"...bad pups..." and ..."not as 'even tempered' as reputable
breeder..." Again, this is an assumption and unfounded opinion. Check
with the folks who bought the puppies. Our Bryn, yellow female, now one
year old) looks fantastic and has a great personality. We've had dogs
for over 35 years. We've never had a dog that got as many complements
as Bryn. People go out of their way to tell us we have a happy dog or
we have a beautiful dog or we have a well behaved dog and to ask us
where we got her. They pull their cars to the side of the road and roll
down their window to talk. They hesitate in doorways on their way into
stores to talk. They bring their children over to pet her and talk.
She is great with kids, grown ups and other animals. She is a good
watch dog in the house and in our travel trailer. She is a great
camper. She is eager to please and learns fast. Loves to fetch. It
can cost you to assume. Don't assume anything. Look at and listen to
the testimonials of people who have the product.
"...breeding ethics are not straight..." What can I say? I've said
enough. There will always be critics. There will always be differing
opinions. Go in and ask how they handle the breeding. Don't accept
opinions of competitors as fact. Investigate for yourself. And above
all, look into what the people who bought the product are saying.
Advertising only works once if the product doesn't work! These folks
sell dogs by word of mouth advertising. Satisfied customers praise the
product!
Art
Kim Beverly
I'm sure you will be able to advise your friend about how to properly go
about researching the breeder, breeders and thinks to ask. Its buyer beware
and the more, better educated you are, the better you are able to make an
intelligent decision.
Cheers
Tim Chong
California.....
I did extensive researches on the breed, the breeders, their reputation,
etc. Although I didn't do a good job for a first time puppy buyer, I am
very fortunate to end my search with Ashstone Labradors.
Nice to meet someone who knows Cheryl!
Tim and Ashstone's Jumping Jubilance, Hallie
Monterey, California
www.members.tripod.com/timotheus06
"Kim Beverly" <pir...@netrover.com> wrote in message
news:uF5_5.98816$Z2.11...@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
Ceallach
"Tim Chong" <timot...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:919hc3$ppi$1...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...
> Do you know Cheryl?
>
> Wow, I've never personally met her in person, but everybody else I know
has
> heard of her.
Cheryl is very well known in our part of the world.
Laura
Ceallach
> We had some of the same concerns when we started searching for where to
> get our new puppy. We heard some of the same statements you made. Had
> some of the same thoughts. But instead of just assuming these were bad
> traits in a breeder we asked for names and phone numbers of people who
> bought their pups. Our conversation with these owners were very
> reassuring. Good dogs. Good breeder. These were the opinions of
> customers, not competing breeders.
>
> Let me address some of your points directly:
>
> "In it for the money." Heh. None of the breeders we visited were
> willing to GIVE us a pup. They wouldn't even let one go at "cost" (that
> is, just let us give you what it has cost you so far to get the puppy to
> give-away age). They all were asking the market "going price" of around
> $500 each. Honestly, what breeder doesn't think "10 pups at $500 each
> equals $5,000 - not bad numbers, eh?). Maybe there's a Web page listing
> breeders willing to give away there pups just because they are proud of
> them? And the better the pups the faster they want to give them away?
Ok let me get this straight. We pay thousands of dollars to finish a dog to
its championship, certify hips/elbows and eyes, pay hundreds for a stud fee,
live and breath with the pups for 7-8 weeks, paying vet bills, feeding
bills, etc and you want us to give them away?
> "6 litters almost always." This is like saying don't go into a
> restaurant because it is always crowded. Or don't shop at such-and-such
> a store because it is always full of people. The presence of people in
> a restaurant or a store is a good sign that there is something good
> inside. Good food. Good prices. Good product. Breeding is the same.
> Being busy is a good sign. People want these pups. They recommend this
> breeder. If you had folks standing in line for your product you too
> would figure out how to increase production while maintaining its
> quality. And if you didn't maintain quality your sales would drop off.
> There are waiting lists for these pups. The quality is there. Ask the
> folks who stood in line to get the pups!
Sorry, but pups aren't like fast food where you make them and then put them
aside until a customer comes to buy it. They are living, breathing things
which take lots of time and effort to mold into something that will be a
pleasure to live with. Its a LOT of work to socialize and take care of a
litter of puppies. By the time one of my litters goes to their new homes I
am exhausted. I twice had 2 litters of pups at the same time and I thought
I would die. There aren't enough hours in the day to take care of these
pups, socializing them the way they should be plus leave room for anything
else like your human family. Having as many as you can doesn't show quality
at all. I have people waiting in line for mine and they know it might take
awhile before I have a puppy for them.
> "Let their puppies go at 6 weeks..." This is really an area of
> controversy. We have several great books on getting and raising a pup.
> The authors don't agree. "Forty-nine days" (7 weeks) claims one
> respected author. "Eight weeks is best" claims another. "Take them at
> six" claims a third. All you can be sure of is you should certainly get
> your pup at somewhere between six and eight weeks of age. Nobody seems
> to say under five. Nobody seems to say over nine. The magic number is
> a range of six to eight.
Funny that most states require a puppy to be 8 weeks before it can leave its
home. There is a BIG difference between a 6 week puppy emotionally and a
7-8 week old puppy and to let one go that early isn't doing what's best for
that puppy. At 6 weeks they really come into themselves and can be holy
terrors, but its necessary for them to remain with their littermates as they
learn about their world that last week. Letting them go at 6 weeks is only
easier for the breeder who doesn't want to spend the extra time in the care
of these pups. Get them out before they start their badness.
> "...bad pups..." and ..."not as 'even tempered' as reputable
> breeder..." Again, this is an assumption and unfounded opinion. Check
> with the folks who bought the puppies. Our Bryn, yellow female, now one
> year old) looks fantastic and has a great personality. We've had dogs
> for over 35 years. We've never had a dog that got as many complements
> as Bryn. People go out of their way to tell us we have a happy dog or
> we have a beautiful dog or we have a well behaved dog and to ask us
> where we got her. They pull their cars to the side of the road and roll
> down their window to talk. They hesitate in doorways on their way into
> stores to talk. They bring their children over to pet her and talk.
> She is great with kids, grown ups and other animals. She is a good
> watch dog in the house and in our travel trailer. She is a great
> camper. She is eager to please and learns fast. Loves to fetch. It
> can cost you to assume. Don't assume anything. Look at and listen to
> the testimonials of people who have the product.
Describing an beloved animal as a product speaks volumes.
> "...breeding ethics are not straight..." What can I say? I've said
> enough. There will always be critics. There will always be differing
> opinions. Go in and ask how they handle the breeding. Don't accept
> opinions of competitors as fact. Investigate for yourself. And above
> all, look into what the people who bought the product are saying.
> Advertising only works once if the product doesn't work! These folks
> sell dogs by word of mouth advertising. Satisfied customers praise the
> product!
The portion of their website which states "We are devoted to our family of
Labrador retrievers. We are one of a few breeders where that is our only
business.
We are not going to bore you with stories about our children, our
grandchildren, nor my hot rod Chevy (although we are very proud of them).
Our purpose here is to tell you about our Labradors. Enough said. We look
forward to doing business with you." tells me all I need to know. Most
reputable breeders consider their puppy people as extensions of their family
and NEVER refer to their breeding as a business. Now that is "Enough said".
Laura
kt
Art Kesler wrote:
> We had some of the same concerns when we started searching for where to
> get our new puppy. We heard some of the same statements you made. Had
> some of the same thoughts. But instead of just assuming these were bad
> traits in a breeder we asked for names and phone numbers of people who
> bought their pups. Our conversation with these owners were very
> reassuring. Good dogs. Good breeder. These were the opinions of
> customers, not competing breeders.
>
You don't need to assume...you should know these ARE bad traits in a breeder. I
am sure the owners were very reassuring...that's how they make their money.
Important issues you haven't mentioned are the parent's health certificates,
parent's age, number of times bred and how close apart, what type of socialization
they've gotten (hard to socialize so many pups at the same time)/
>
> Let me address some of your points directly:
>
> "In it for the money." Heh. None of the breeders we visited were
> willing to GIVE us a pup. They wouldn't even let one go at "cost" (that
> is, just let us give you what it has cost you so far to get the puppy to
> give-away age). They all were asking the market "going price" of around
> $500 each. Honestly, what breeder doesn't think "10 pups at $500 each
> equals $5,000 - not bad numbers, eh?). Maybe there's a Web page listing
> breeders willing to give away there pups just because they are proud of
> them? And the better the pups the faster they want to give them away?
>
10 pups at $500 each...hmmm...What about those 1 pup litters, or worse, the
litters that actually are stillborn, or the absolute worst, cause the death of the
bitch? What about the vet bills? What about the time and money spent proving
your dog SHOULD be bred through field or confirmation? Do you know how much it
costs to have breeding stock properly certified (OFA, CERF, etc.)? Are you aware
of the cost of stud fees...I mean for an animal that has proper certification and
been proven in field or show to be a superior animal.
I am not a breeder, I am a first time lab buyer (in Southern California) that
spent nearly a year researching and waiting for the right pup. My first
experience was also with a breeder in Ontario (though not AAA). They also seemed
to think of the pups as their bread and butter. Like you, I was uncomfortable
with some of their policies and "traits". I decided to turn down the 6 wk old pup
mainly as a gut instinct. After that I decided to go to some dog shows that were
local. I was lucky that the Labrador Retriever Club of Southern California had
their specialty show that same month. At the show, I was not only treated to
seeing some of the most beautiful and well trained labradors, I was also able to
talk with some of the breeders and get their opinions and find out their
philosophy. In ALL cases, the breeders were adamant that they lost money in the
breeding dogs, but they are hooked. Of course they charge you for the dog. One,
to try to recoup some of their losses, and also to confirm your commitment to the
dog. From what I've seen in all my research, if done RIGHT, you will not make
much if any money breeding dogs.
In the improvement of the breed, there will be puppies produced that might have
some "less than perfect" confirmation that makes them pet quality though their
sibling might be show quality (though all breeders I talked to said they had at
least once found later that they had sold the wrong pup!). In purchasing this pup
under limited registration (my beautiful 5.5 month old Dylan), I feel I have done
my part in helping improve the breed.
> "6 litters almost always." This is like saying don't go into a
> restaurant because it is always crowded. Or don't shop at such-and-such
> a store because it is always full of people. The presence of people in
> a restaurant or a store is a good sign that there is something good
> inside. Good food. Good prices. Good product. Breeding is the same.
> Being busy is a good sign. People want these pups. They recommend this
> breeder. If you had folks standing in line for your product you too
> would figure out how to increase production while maintaining its
> quality. And if you didn't maintain quality your sales would drop off.
> There are waiting lists for these pups. The quality is there. Ask the
> folks who stood in line to get the pups!
>
If you are looking for a pup, an important question to ask the breeder is why did
you breed these dogs? A good dog breeder will tell you what they were going for.
Perhaps their bitch is beautiful but might be improved if her chest was deeper.
They bring in a dog from a line that carries a deeper chest to improve the breed.
They assume they are going to keep at least one from the breeding to see if their
hopes were realized, while less reputable breeders assume they are going to unload
virtually every pup they breed (unless they need to replace a worn out bitch).
>
> "Let their puppies go at 6 weeks..." This is really an area of
> controversy. We have several great books on getting and raising a pup.
> The authors don't agree. "Forty-nine days" (7 weeks) claims one
> respected author. "Eight weeks is best" claims another. "Take them at
> six" claims a third. All you can be sure of is you should certainly get
> your pup at somewhere between six and eight weeks of age. Nobody seems
> to say under five. Nobody seems to say over nine. The magic number is
> a range of six to eight.
I have read at least 10 dog/puppy training books including such authors as the
Monks of New Skete, Jean Donaldson, Ian Dunbar and have discussed this with at
least as many lab trainers and the only controversy I've seen has been between 7-8
weeks, not 6 wks. What a difference a week makes!
In general, you can tell a lot from a breeder by seeing how picky they are about
who gets their pups. They often want to know a lot about you before they even
start to give you any info on them! They are usually very active in proving their
dogs either in field events or in confirmation shows. They are active in their
local chapter of the Labrador Retriever Club (they have to be sponsored to join).
You can get referrals from the Labrador Retriever Club of Southern California
(LRCSC). They have a web site but I can't think of the URL...just search for
LRCSC in any search tool.
Your message also implied that the only reason others are saying negative things
about this breeder is because they are the competition. In all my dealings with
the breeders in So Cal, not one had a bad thing to say about another breeder that
had the same standards...even though THEY would truly be their competition.
My previous dog (not a lab, a GSD) was purchased for us from what I would now call
a puppy mill. She was BEAUTIFUL dog...that later suffered from hip displasia and
other ailments in her adulthood. I don't doubt that your Bryn is a beautiful dog
and could very well be perfectly healthy and happy for all her days. However, to
tell people that all you have to do is check out other customers is giving a false
sense of security. Do you think the breeder is going to give you names of unhappy
customers?
Even after all the research I did, I realize there are no guarantees. I just
wanted to get the best head start possible and not be part of the puppy
overpopulation problem without providing some benefit.
FYI: I adopted my Dazzling Dylan from Stone Creek Labradors in San Dimas
California. I also would recommend Sun Country Labradors in Yorba Linda. Both
caring and responsible breeders.
(...ok, I'll get off my soap box now...and please excuse any spelling errors, the
keyboard and mouse haven't been the same since my 3 year old has learned to type!)
kat
