jolly 'oliday with mary jo
Kathleen J. Kramer
to the overture for the movie, i got the album with christmas money. i
love the tunes, let's go fly a kite, chim chiminey. "there's a whole
world up here that only the stars and chimney sweeps see"
i love steppin' time.
a spoonful of jo
in every job that must be done
there's an element of fun
and once you find the fun
you're work is all done
this is a cheap soundtrack. it's not julie and dick.
so i don't know what else to say. i have a bunch of mail to answer. this
computer does the weirdest shit.
anyway.
oh, i posted this on the personal's group. well at least no one tried to
have me killed here, you know? christ, this is my favorite group on the
internet in terms of asshole to cool people ratio. oh yes, i just
decided i absolutely had to cross post this to the bitterness group.
the music groups, forget it. just the net in general. i don't know. but
people act like since everyone hates me, it's my fault. well i guess. i
could kiss the stanky ass of people i have no respect for. and i only
have no respect for those who first have no respect for me or others.
but there were flame wars and all this shit long before i showed up, you
know?
but i can't possibly be looking for a man can I? oh shit, pavement
artist, i love this song.
i'm looking for a gentleman loafer.
today i'm a schreaver and a schreaver's an artist of the highest degree.
so i guess i schreaver, well who know's what it is?
my cap would be glad of a copper or two.
so who is going to marry me? i must marry someone who smokes pot.
man, that mary poppins is a peice of misery. always giving him grief
when he tries being nice.
hey, any saddletramps out there looking for a jo?
oh i just love adam duritz i'm afraid. everyone hates me but i still love him.
his sweet gentility is crystal clear
so it didn't snow today and it's new year's eve so millions of women are
trying on clothes and make up almost crying 'cause they think they're so
fat and their hair is too thin and lips crooked and droppy eyelids.
i'm sitting here in my pajamas and maybe i'll drag my ass across the
street to a party.
but i'm tired from drinking last night. but i do so love it. and i love
riding busses. i'm a whore i know. but it's just so neat being around
the people on the bus. people on the bus love me. well not all of them.
but they will when they understand that i understand.
but i was watching this movie 'a face in the crowd' about lonesome
rhodes played by andy griffith and that lady, the first mrs. walton from
the christmas movie, the coffee lady who had a stroke, what is her name?
neil. something neil.
well she was in it. and everyone loved lonely rhodes because he was an
ordinary man but once everyone loved him, he was no longer an ordinary
man. but like they said, you'd have to be a saint to resist the power of
television.
and he was no saint.
but one minute he's totally not selling out, just walks away from a
sponsor and then he has sex with
PATRICIAL NEAL. okay, i remembered, and then the next thing he's selling
nothing pills, vitajex. one guy said he was going all the way and he was
done.
so he was real nice on camera but was brutal and hated everyone. he knew
he had this huge power. and at the end, walter matheau (who isn't funny
in this movie, oh yeah, and mike wallace is in it, too) anyway, lonesome
rhodes did turn out to be a dick, got all crazy and shit, but he was
saying that everyone got wise to lonesome.
but he *was* just an ordinary guy with a huge heart until he meets up
with business college slime and gets all ritzy. but he was selfish. as
we are all and try to act like we're not.
i love to laugh
loud and long and clear
i love to laugh
it's getting worse every year
too funny.
it's embarrassing (being too merry, this is the 'i love to laugh' song)
well what? am i afraid of being a big famous jo? oh those of you who
hate me ruminating over the possibility, eh?
well i have to try and say what i feel needs to be said
see you people don't know how fucking bad people hurt. the people who
say they have suffered so much and yet expect other people to be immune
to what ails them, just proves they know nothing. i will spend my whole
life trying to communicate this notion. you don't imprison a man with no
legs for not being able to dance, but we do. metaphohrically of course.
i mean these days, if you don't have an aptitude for kissing ass, how do
you get anywhere?
you people have seen me strip down to nothing in front of you trying to
let you into my pain so that you would start being nice to me and others
worse than me.
and i feel like i drop my iron robe to the floor and stand soft before
you only to be met with bitter laughter.
but fuck it. i keep doing it. those of you laughing are showing us
nothing but your teeth . . . sharpened and glistening, blood stained and
happy.
because mr. jones (my third floor neighbor) was just here, drunk,
crying to me about how he misses his kids that he never gets to see.
he's so depressed and just drinks and drinks and i see him in the middle
of the night sitting in the yard, having great converstations with the
trees, conducting an invisable orchestra only he has no headphones,
there is no music except his own. and no one can hear it.
i can still smell his after shave on me from him hugging me. he never
bathes and just pours on this musk. oh and it just hurts so much. not
just because of how the misery squad hates me, but their hate and
intolerance breaks the backs of so many other people who aren't like me
but are still spent and poor.
jesus christ, when did this country get so fucking selfish? we used to
pride ourselves on helping our neighbor. helping other people brings out
the very very best in ourselves. that desire is the core of all great
art (not just good art that we buy for our homes), but great works.
i could cry
Feed the Birds
on each day
to the steps of st. pauls
the little old bird woman comes
in her own special way,
to the people she calls
come buy my bags full of crumbs
come feed the little birds
show them you care
and you'll be glad if you do
the young ones are hungry
their nests are so bare
alls it tkaes is tuppins from you
feed the birds
tuppins a bag
the birds around her head fill the sky . . .
this is such a pretty song
all the saints smiling each time someone shows that he cares.
disciplin is a sign of fear, of not trusting yourself. if you follow
your heart, disciplin comes easy and completely. sure there are
struggles but you just do what you have to. but this is a sad lonely
world.
and we'll all be here talking to computers, no one touching anyone, so
easy to hurt those you can not see . . .
well it's going to be a new year. the year of the jo. and on this big
night, i just feel like crying. poor mr. jones.
feed the birds
fuck those birds, i want them off welfare, they can get jobs and feed
their own damn selves. no food, huh. they could get up a little earlier,
quit spending so much time in the nest.
or blow me a kiss, 'cause that's lucky too.
our destiny expresses itself through our desires, you know? and those
desires we fall prey to, those desires are our best friends, force us
into all kinds of horrible situations full of oppurtunity to be a hero.
hey, i don't care what anyone says, i am a hero.
i was crying tonight, looking at my pretty blue christmas tree that is
like 12 feet tall (i live in an old house with high ceilings) just
thinking that i'm not going to let the misery squad take away from me
what i did.
i had so many strikes against me, i was so beat, didn't care if i lived
or died. and *me* going to carnegie mellon? i'm telling you i did the
impossible and no one cares because i was collecting welfare while
battling the demons inflicted on me from others.
so all the people who are steaming mad, saying 'fuck you kathy jo' well,
when i'm on the radio next week and they start calling to tell me off, i
can be funny. i've had misery training here.
but to the other people who have always been so cool and so fucking
patient with me, watching me soar and dive and cry and fight, well
thanks folks.
i can't help it that i just don't have time for this anymore. but with
leo being gone, well, all this shit is happening so fast to me.
i feel like an asshole apologizing because there's only one me and i
just can't be friends with everyone so i feel like i can't be friends
with anyone then or some weird shit.
oh let's go fly a kite.
i love this song
you can dance on the trees and roofs
up to the highest hieghts in '95.
agh, 1995, i have to be so strong. but we're approaching a new
millenium!!!!! that is the most excellent thing. i can't believe we're
alive for it, i mean holy shit. the 21st century. wild. very wild.
e-mail sex will be big, what with disease and pestilance being ignored
by those who aren't infected. everyone with blinders on, just minding
their own business, tripping over corpses on our way home from work.
we will start blaming people who get cancer? i mean maybe it is our
fault, so if we had fun in the process of getting cancer, well i guess
we shouldn't help them get better.
it's just that i don't care if i sound like an asshole for trying to
care. but what we're taught is that if we go around trying to encourage
people to be nice, that we're full of shit because the truly good people
never say anything about anything, they just go around working at soup
kitchens. but i think they would have their efforts increased if they
were to tell other people why it's good that they're there, offer their
experience in hopes of other people becoming interested and doing the
same.
and once that starts, miracles start fizzing everywhere.
well you all, start the new year with joy.
you computer men, well there's someone for everyone. i swear i'll
believe that till the day i die.
oh that's horrible. i hope i find adam before that. man.
but when i see the cheating lying bastards and you women too, well, well
my little heart needs to be kept tight in it's velvet box. too many not
nice lying sacks of shit out there who don't give a fuck about anything
or anyone else.
this is a prerequiste for most capitalistic gains. and that's why we're
all so lonely. we don't trust our own worth. and no fucking wonder. it's
hard to have any in this sewer.
but i just know god wants us to be nice. i struggle wondering if i'm
evil, going around denouncing evil, loving a merciful and loving god,
saying i don't believe in hell which means i'm evil or some shit. i
still feel like the fear is right until i realize it's just fear and
then the warmth wiggles around me and i feel so happy. but it never goes
away, the fear.
but when i wonder if god really is like the brutal father waiting with
his belt, distributing lashes just to test us to see if we're worthy,
and when we fall under the wieght of the blow, dispose of us unworthy
souls, well why did he create us then? i give god more credit than judeo
christians.
really, everytime i see a flower, i know god is good. when i see the
spin-art sunset of a late october sky, i know god is good.
oh i don't know why i'm doing this, i just, i don't know. i just want to
wish all the people who have been kind to me, posting in the middle of a
flame war all about me, taking so much shit just for agreeing with me,
well i never got to write back to probably half of you, but i still want
to thank you all.
A Man Has Dreams
a man has dreams of walking with giants
to carve his niche in the ediface of time
before the mortar of his zeal
has a chance to congeal
the cup is dashed from his lips
the flame is snuffed from burning
he's brought to rack and ruin in his prime
and then he blames mary poppins,
then came this *person* with chaos in her wake
and my ambition fall with one swift blow
it's quite a bitter pill to take
a spoonful of sugar turns bread and water into tea and cakes
that *is* a dangerous notion.
well everyone, maybe i'll be back later. funny, when i cough on my
computer screen, it makes these little shiney colorful dots on the
screen from my sputem.
merry sputem
oh, i'm writing about being fat, i'm going to start doing research about
it and then will write it, it's called
fat like me
so well, i'm still a lonely whore and men love me but i never love them
back, only adam. but tonight, tongiht it's cream of mushroom soup and
ritz crackers for everyone!
but hey you all, let's get it right this time, eh?
okay later, hey go post on my group would you?
bye honeys, all of you. oh, and i can't believe i got mad at william
kronert. sorry. i mean you are like the nicest man alive even though you
did make me mad. but man, it's hard being hated. that's why you lurkers
don't post, you know what i mean. well sorry bill, keep being nice even
if i'm stupid sometimes.
later man
kathy jo
OH SHIT i had to change the tunes. so it's back to nirvana unplugged. i
love this song 'lake of fire'
my nieghbors think i sent leo to rob those houses, everyone hates me so
i act like a crazy woman, i put a million colored lights on the porch,
it looks so cool, pink and blue and gold and green. really pretty
colors, you know? millions of them. and the porch has these skinny black
rails that you can't even see.
but i was singing this song as i hung the lights, real loud
'where do bad people go when they die
they go to a lake of fire and fry
see 'em again 'till the forth of july
or close enough. well i always have trouble with good-byes
happy new year internet bastards! i love you. (oh i couldn't possibly)
but i try.
"how can a thing be wrong if it's done with love?" Suzie Atkins' response
when questioned about her
part in the Manson Murders
T. Bickle
Kathleen J. Kramer (kk...@andrew.cmu.edu) wrote:
: oops! my name is kathy jo and i'm not mary poppins jo. but i'm listening
Greg-man
you is a result of a choice you made. If you get mugged, you made the
choice to be walking in that area at that time. In that school of
thought everything is your fault...
Why did the man lose his kids KJ? Was it because of his heavy drinking?
Why did he choose to drink instead of cleaning up his life and trying to
do more so he could be with them?
You open your iron robe to show us a self-pitying whiner underneath. You
ask the whole world to say "poor baby." You claim to see so much misery
and perhaps it is because you are looking for it.
Today I stood outside the emergency room of a hospital, talking with a
homeless man who had just been released as he smoked a cigarette he
bummed from me. He complained about his life, but he also took
responsibility for it. When he talked about how he was not going to get
an apartment, he also admitted that he slept through the appointment he
had with the housing agency that was going to get it for him. He talked
about the guys he knew who kept getting tickets for drinking and sleeping
on the beach and, no matter how many times they got busted, they kept
going to that same beach, kept drinking, and kept getting busted. He, on
the other hand was clearing up his warrants and getting his life in
order. The reason he was in the hospital was because some guy kicked the
shit out of him (the new boyfriend of his ex-girlfriend). Sounded like a
sort of Bukowski-esque life. We finished our cigarettes and he walked
off while I went back in to wait for my father, whom I'd rushed there at
7:30 this morning when he had severe chest pains.
Sure there is misery, but there is also hope, there is also
perserverance, there is also self-reliance. I look for those things. I
try to look for the strength in people, not the pain, because it is the
strength that needs to be seen.
The guy asked for a cigarette, but he didn't ask for money. I didn't
offer money either, because I saw him beginning to take care of himself.
He was sober, lucid, and looking for an honest way out.
I don't want to kill you. I don't want to hurt you. I just want to see
you become what you have the potential to be and stop posting 400+ lines
of meandering self-pity and accusations against the rest of the world.
--
|-----------------------------------------------------|-------------------|
|GREAT MOMENTS IN CHANNEL SURFING: #20 IN A SERIES-- |GREG-MAN: |
|"He saw her across the room and asked if she'd come | |
|by car or swan-drawn chariot. She merely smiled." | |
|Between love and madness lies... Blue Star Ointment |greg...@netcom.com|
|-----------------------------------------------------|-------------------|
John Baker
I'll either be at a party or watching The Ultimate Fighting Championship
on pay-per-view. Haven't decided which yet. Bought a nice ($) bottle
of wine for this girlie that likes me. I don't want to go out with her,
and I've told her that, but she is still so cool to me all the time and
gets me things. I wanted to get her something; I hope she doesn't take
it the wrong way.
The internet produces the same feelings in me about people that real
life does: "Their softness makes me want to love them, their hardness
makes me want to kill them." One of my few quotes that is actually my
own.
Thank you for sharing so much of yourself with us. I understand the
size of that gift and the effort it takes to give it. I do it sometimes
too.
john t baker (all in lower case)
--
John Baker
"It ain't an easy life being a self-parody."
- John Baker
STORM
I have been reading these posts in the personals for some time now
and Your posts are the ones I like to read most.
If those reading your posts dont like what you say then they dont have to
read them any longer.
Life is too short to hate, for those of you who do hate i feel sorry for
you!
Happy New Year
--
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* Al Gharet Jr. **"Victims,aren't we all!" *
* Lock Haven University **-Brandon Lee *
* agh...@falcon.lhup.edu **-The Crow *
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Kathleen J. Kramer
come up with the lamest shit to try and put me in my place.
what has been so devistating about my life was the constant feeling that
i *did* get exactly what i deserved.
but how does a child deserve to have her hands held over a stove? how
does a child deserve to be tortured from birth? you fucking tell me,
greg man.
or the brutal rapes, you tell me how i deserved to have cigarettes put
out on my skin while a bunch of men held me down, laughing,
you are such an asshole.
i don't drop my robe and show self-pity, i show you my scars, my soul.
if i do what you do, just talk about how other people deserve to suffer,
if i were like you and the other brutal member of this group, void of
compassion and kindness, i would be showing you bitter self-pity.
and you stupid fuck, of course i know that people have it so much worse
than me. i can't believe i have to explain the obvious to you all again,
but that's why i write. because i know what i go through and i'm not
nearly as spent. and i was delivered. but these other people have no
voice and the country's getting more scared which makes them more stupid.
can't you see, that if they start making welfare recipients work, that
they can phase our minimum wage jobs, force the people onto welfare and
pay them wages below the poverty level to work. or let them fucking
starve.
people even treat homeless people as if they have a choice. they are as
down as they can possibly be, and sure they fucked up some how, but we
all have.
it's funny that women will take money off their men, and little college
students buy deoderant with their parent's VISA card but when other
people need others for help, we want them put in prison camps.
nobody does it alone.
our power of choice is limited to the awareness of the world we have.
how can you people not see this? you can sit and talk about what people
should do, as if they're no different than you.
so i guess i deserve having my own group, deserve getting welfare,
deserve being a great writer. see, i have an impossible time thinking i
deserve my brain. but now my story is running all over the country and
i'm going to be filthy fucking rich. so i guess i'll deserve that, too.
man, if we got what we deserved, the world would be backwards.
but i don't take the shit i do just for me. if i can explain things, it
will help people understand and start being kind and helping other
people instead of expecting for someone else to do it.
man, ignorance never served a man as well as you greg, you want to
believe that i deserved my life so that you can justify your lack of
concern for other people who are struggling.
you people just don't understand utter powerlessness, being held down
while men do whatever they want to you, being tortured as a child, you
don't understand how enervating, how depressing it is
PRECISELY BECAUSE WE ALL THINK WE DESERVE IT, THAT WE'RE SCUM.
it's only when someone starts showing us kindness, when someone tells us
that it wasn't our fault, only then can we even find the strength to try
and make things better.
well if you get cancer from smoking, don't tell us about it, right? hey,
smokers drain billions of dollars from the economy. if you really cared
about that man, you wouldn't have given him a cigarette. why do you
smoke greg? and when you're hooked up to a lung machine, well i can come
and tell you to get over it and get a job and shit, right?
and what the fuck, i went from being the biggest loser in the world to
doing the impossible and getting a college education so that i could be
self reliant you crazy peice of cybermisery. in that time i collected
welfare. so did general ionics but we don't look at it that way.
some people have no strength, they are beat. strength only comes from
being loved and cared for, some affirmation that you're good.
again, you nightmares use all this misery so that you can continue being
self-absorbed, so you can continue discounting how many times you
stumbled across dumb-luck, how many times since and including birth that
you were just plain lucky. how many times we have all driven when we
drank too much but never got caught. how many times we could have been
hurt or spent but were spared.
there's no doubt in my mind that i karma had been born a poor black
woman, she'd be breaking our the heavy duty knee pads for a living.
no, your ignorance is stunning. you say other people need to take care
of themselves only so you don't have to help.
gee, you and karma should get together distributing toys and cigarettes
to people you don't think deserve it. how noble.
sorry to be so brutal, gregg, i thought i saw a human being in there at
one point. but i just don't know . . .
kathy jo
Kathleen J. Kramer
and you know, i do want people to be self-reliant, we all have the same
goal, but the brutality you guys approach it with only makes people more
despondent.
actually, i didn't start doing really well in therapy 'till i was
willing to accept karmic responsibilty for everything. not that i
deserved to suffer, but that i had to really understand it
SO I COULD BE KIND AND COMPASSIONATE.
life has a funny way of forcing us into situations that call for us to
do what we swore we'd never do. some people go on about how they'd
never cheat on their husband until they see the new girl or guy at work.
life is funny. i wouldn't be so high and mighty if i were you guys . . .
see, i know it could all disappear, that i could sit down and not be
able to write a word, that all the little magic things i see could
disappear from my sight.
as long as i don't use that sight just for me, i'll be okay.
and that's all. but greg, jez. you actually are starting to inspire
pity in me for you.
Kathleen J. Kramer
sleep right after midnight. leo called and i cried and cried. just
hearing his sweet little voice. he is so young.
and last night was the worst. it was the first time i talked to him that
he really missed me and was crying.
it was so heartbreaking. i still feel so depressed. i wish i could find
a man and give him the kind of home he has with his dad.
well after adam marries me i'll get my little boy back. yes, i'm working
full time at in pittsburgh now and will soon be able to move and do
whatever he needs, but he needs a man in his life.
well, i just got done reading about how i deserve this all. i think i
did deserve a break, though.
but it made me cry to read this
On 01-Jan-95 in Re: jolly 'oliday with mary
user John Ba...@ix.netcom.com writes:
>Thank you for sharing so much of yourself with us. I understand the
>size of that gift and the effort it takes to give it. I do it sometimes
>too.
i mean, even though people who have never given anything of themselves
look at me as nothing but a pitymonger, i knew by this sentence that
*you* know john t. baker, and as long as a few of you know, like len
harrison who i never write to enough because i suck, and david, and all
the lurkers who have written to me, konnie,
you guys keep me alive. you really do.
thanks and with all my love i wish even the wretched gregman the best.
see, it's just that people like the gregman, who, if life heaves a load
of shit on, just can't take it. so i feel very sorry thinking about how
many loads of shit life can heave on you. and how desperately we need
each other.
i'm so sad and so happy.
well just thanks john.
i truly love so many of you.
thanks thanks thankthank you
kathy mojo
Greg-man
Kathleen J. Kramer <kk...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
[snip]
>but how does a child deserve to have her hands held over a stove? how
>does a child deserve to be tortured from birth? you fucking tell me,
>greg man.
Some of us have learned to drop the baggage of our childhood wounds.
Some of us, like you, display it like a trophy to prove how pitiful we are.
Don't believe you're the only one who had it rough.
>or the brutal rapes, you tell me how i deserved to have cigarettes put
>out on my skin while a bunch of men held me down, laughing,
So, were you just walking down the street in a nice part of town and a
bunch of guys jumped out of a van? Or were you in places and situations
where such scumbags were much more prevalent. I described Radical
Voluntarism as an extreme position, but you may see that you may have
walked into some of these situations. There is no excuse for rape. It
is a disgusting crime and I would NEVER say anyone "asked for it," but at
the same time, I will say that perhaps you could have better tried to
avoid it.
And, BTW, I went through a nerd phase in High School. During that time,
there was a period where a girl used to think it was funny to try to grab
my balls (sexual battery), threaten to "de-virginize me" (I had just
turned 15 for Christ-sake), and try to burn me with her cigarette while a
bunch of bigger guys laughed their asses off and made sure I did not kick
the shit out of her for it. I finally decided that the only person who
could change my life was me and I stood up for myself. I NEVER believed
I deserved it, but I could have stood up for myself earlier, I could have
avoided her better, any number of things. So, though it never should
have happened, I did put myself in that situation to some extent.
>you are such an asshole.
I pride myself on it.
>i don't drop my robe and show self-pity, i show you my scars, my soul.
>if i do what you do, just talk about how other people deserve to suffer,
>if i were like you and the other brutal member of this group, void of
>compassion and kindness, i would be showing you bitter self-pity.
Compassion and pity are two WAY different things. There is a difference
between saying "poor baby, you must be a good person because you have
suffered so much" and saying "I respect you and want to help you." See,
KJ, as much as you do refuse to believe it, I do respect you and I'd love
to help you get to a better mind-set.
>and you stupid fuck, of course i know that people have it so much worse
>than me. i can't believe i have to explain the obvious to you all again,
>but that's why i write. because i know what i go through and i'm not
>nearly as spent. and i was delivered. but these other people have no
>voice and the country's getting more scared which makes them more stupid.
Holding yourself up as a defender of the downtrodden masses. How noble.
I guess you'd just like to take in the whole world and give them big hugs
and evnelop them in an aura of love and warmth. I guess that because I
don't know it. Best I see is that you'd like to sit them all in a
stadium and have them tell you how wonderful you are because you have
suffered so much and you're such a good person even though you are a
"dirty-whore" (your words, not mine). Not gonna happen.
>can't you see, that if they start making welfare recipients work, that
>they can phase our minimum wage jobs, force the people onto welfare and
>pay them wages below the poverty level to work. or let them fucking
>starve.
If I was truly paranoid I could see that. And, if they just made welfare
recipients work for minimum wage without training them for higher paying
jobs, I wouldn't support it and would fight it. But instead of just
harping about the evils, why don't you come up with some workable
solutions to prevent the abuses of the welfare system? Would you support
Norplant for all welfare mothers so they can't have any more kids until
they get off welfare? How about a time limit on welfare, perhaps three
or four years? How about better programs to establish paternity (no
child whose father is not positively identified can get welfare benefits)
so that delinquent fathers can be held more accountable for the support
of their children?
All of these things have been suggested. Why don't you fight for
something that helps instead of just against things that hurt? Come up
with solutions instead of sitting on the sidelines and naysaying.
BTW--I apologize to the rest for the politics. I was using them to prove
a point about KJ's observations and am not trying to turn this into a
political debate.
>people even treat homeless people as if they have a choice. they are as
>down as they can possibly be, and sure they fucked up some how, but we
>all have.
Some do. Any adult has choices. Some need a little help to get back on
their feet again and I do not begrudge them that. Occasionally
catastrophes strike (such as the Northridge earthquake) that are
completely beyond anyone's control (even if they did choose to live in
CA, where the earthquakes are a well-known risk). But people who drink
themselves into stupors, who get treatment and then go back to their
self-destructive habits, are people who have made their choices.
>it's funny that women will take money off their men, and little college
>students buy deoderant with their parent's VISA card but when other
>people need others for help, we want them put in prison camps.
I have no respect for a woman who lets a man support her and makes no
attempt to develop marketable skills and use them to work with her man to
build a better life for both of them. College students... Some of them
are spoiled and never had to work. But if they don't have to, that means
that the jobs are available to other students who do need them.
As for prison camps... My name is Greg-man, not Newt-man. There are
better solutions. Of course, there are people who truly need help and
other people who just leech off of the system. There's an old saying: God
helps those who help themselves. I'm not religious, but I think that
aiding someone should be no more than a 50-50 partnership. So long as
they're making an honest effort to improve themselves and their lot in
life, I do not begrudge them assistance. But, let's not get into
politics again.
>nobody does it alone.
You're right. Jesus wouldn't have done half the things that got him
crucified if he hadn't had twelve of his buddies egging him on. But, to
an extent, we are all alone in that no one can do it for us. We can ask
for help, but the most important things we must do for ourselves.
>our power of choice is limited to the awareness of the world we have.
>how can you people not see this? you can sit and talk about what people
>should do, as if they're no different than you.
Some people choose to be less aware than others. You tend to be less
aware of the potential for goodness and success that I see, while I tend
to be less aware of the hoplessness and despair you see.
>so i guess i deserve having my own group, deserve getting welfare,
>deserve being a great writer. see, i have an impossible time thinking i
Halt! "great writer"? Your honor, the opposing attorney is trying to
present facts that are not in evidence. Her claim is mere supposition
and conjecture on a very subjective appelation which many would dispute.
>deserve my brain. but now my story is running all over the country and
>i'm going to be filthy fucking rich. so i guess i'll deserve that, too.
There are many people who get "filthy fucking rich" for peddling shit.
You can fool some of the people... But you do deserve it. If people are
willing to pay you for engendering your particular brand of misery, go
for it. But remember that they also send their life's savings to
Evangelists who claim they'll heal them through the television and phony
psychics who say they need to bury the money in a graveyard to get rid of
the negative energies that have attached themselves to the person and are
making them unhappy. But people CHOOSE to be gullible, to give this
person all these things because they are desperate for someone who will
listen, care, etc. But signing a check for $20,000 or handing over the
cash to a con-man is a choice. They can only do this to you because you
want them to, because they have appealed to one of your weaknesses and
you have let that weakness rule your actions.
>man, if we got what we deserved, the world would be backwards.
If we got what we deserved, Newt Gingrich would be sucking slime out of a
dumpster and the Pope would be peddling his ass on Hollywood Blvd. But
that's karmic just-desserts, not reality. For their actions, they got
the real results. It sucks that such actions bring such rewards, but
that is the way the world has been for millenia.
>but i don't take the shit i do just for me. if i can explain things, it
>will help people understand and start being kind and helping other
>people instead of expecting for someone else to do it.
What do you explain? You ramble incoherently. You hardly present a
cogent argument for the solution to any social ills. And I have helped
people. I have been a shoulder to cry on, an ear to bend. I have helped
people seek and find counseling for things that trouble them. I also
expect them to do the work toward getting themselves back together. I'll
help them find solutions, but it is their responsibility to take
advantage of them and make them work.
>man, ignorance never served a man as well as you greg, you want to
>believe that i deserved my life so that you can justify your lack of
>concern for other people who are struggling.
Ignorance is in the eye of the beholder.
>you people just don't understand utter powerlessness, being held down
>while men do whatever they want to you, being tortured as a child, you
>don't understand how enervating, how depressing it is
When we realize that we can act to change it, we can stop it. When I was
twelve, I stopped the abuse my mother perpetrated against me by hitting
back, by fighting back. When she realized that every time she tried to
hit me, she had a chance of taing some damage too, she stopped. But it
didn't stop with my sister. I moved out to live with my father and tried
to get my sister to come with me. Her answer, every time I tried to get
her out of that abusive situation was "no, Mom needs me." She martyred
herself and though I felt sorry for her being in that situation, she did
have options.
>PRECISELY BECAUSE WE ALL THINK WE DESERVE IT, THAT WE'RE SCUM.
If you can change it and don't, then you do deserve it. You are choosing
to let it continue.
>it's only when someone starts showing us kindness, when someone tells us
>that it wasn't our fault, only then can we even find the strength to try
>and make things better.
Typical victim mentality. A guy rrecently got a multi-million judgement
in a court of law for something that "wasn't his fault." There was a
sign on the end of a pier that said no diving. He dove anyway, hit a
concrete piling and broke his neck. His justification for suing. "They
told me it was illegal, but they didn't tell me I could get severely
injured. It's their fault, not mine." The jury believed him and awarded
him millions. Now that small beach town doesn't have as much money to
keep up it services to its citizens, such as police.
That guy had a choice. He CHOSE to dive off that pier and act stupidly.
Then, some people who apparently agree with your viewpoint, told him it
wasn't his fault for being a reckless, stupid asshole and awarded him
someone else's tax dollars. And the people who suffered the lack of
police protection and a slightly higher crime rate deserved it, because
they bought into the victim mentality as most people on juries are
seeming to do.
>well if you get cancer from smoking, don't tell us about it, right? hey,
>smokers drain billions of dollars from the economy. if you really cared
>about that man, you wouldn't have given him a cigarette. why do you
>smoke greg? and when you're hooked up to a lung machine, well i can come
>and tell you to get over it and get a job and shit, right?
Sure. If my insurance can't cover my medical treatment for a
self-inflicted illness, give me a lethal dose of sodium pentothal and let
me slip into oblivion. But DON'T try to tell me my lung cancer is
someone else's fault when I knew the risks and made the choice to smoke.
I made my choices and I'll live with the consequences. And I'll also do
what I can to make sure I've adequately protected myself by buying
insurance so I can receive treatment. I d not blame anyone else for my
smoking and I also try to smoke in secluded, ventilated areas so no
non-smoker has to deal with any consequences from my actions. If someone
asks me not to smoke around them, I don't.
>and what the fuck, i went from being the biggest loser in the world to
>doing the impossible and getting a college education so that i could be
>self reliant you crazy peice of cybermisery. in that time i collected
>welfare. so did general ionics but we don't look at it that way.
I have never said that you were bad for this. You collected welfare, but
you did do things to improve yourself and get off of it. You didn't lay
back and increase your checks by having more kids. You did what every
conservative wishes every welfare recipient would do, work towards a
better life so he/she can get off of it. I applaud you for that and you
serve as a good example in those actions. But your constant self-pitying
tripe is boring and annoying. Just because you did one or two good
things doesn't make you a great person and doesn't entitle you to be an
authority on how to live life or look at the world.
To be fair, I am no authority either. I merely present an opposing
viewpoint to yours. A viewpoint in which I believe. I dispute your
viewpoint because I personally see it as wrong, not because I can say
that it is objectively wrong.
>some people have no strength, they are beat. strength only comes from
>being loved and cared for, some affirmation that you're good.
True strength comes from within. Being loved and cared for can aid it in
coming out, but they are not prerequisites for having or utilizing it.
>again, you nightmares use all this misery so that you can continue being
>self-absorbed, so you can continue discounting how many times you
>stumbled across dumb-luck, how many times since and including birth that
>you were just plain lucky. how many times we have all driven when we
>drank too much but never got caught. how many times we could have been
>hurt or spent but were spared.
How many times have you tripped and fell and hurt yourself and cursed
your luck instead of realizing "If I was watching whre I was going
instead of thinking about how nice it would be to be married to Adam
Durwitz this wouldn't have happened." Even if unintentionally, you
create your own luck.
>there's no doubt in my mind that i karma had been born a poor black
>woman, she'd be breaking our the heavy duty knee pads for a living.
Took me a while to fill in the missing letters and correct the typos...
There is doubt in my mind. She might have, as well, grown up to be the
national poet laureate like Maya Angelou or be publishing books of poetry
like Wanda Coleman or be receiving the Nobel like Toni Morrison. She
might have perservered, taken the shit and kept fighting, and become a
doctor, a lawyer, a teacher, a writer. Yes, due to prejudice and class
structure, it might have been a harder road to get there. But she can do it.
>no, your ignorance is stunning. you say other people need to take care
>of themselves only so you don't have to help.
No. I'll help. But I won't take care of them. If they need a boost to
get a handhold on the top of a wall so they can climb over it, that's one
thing. If they expect me to lift them to the top, that's another thing
entirely. 90% of the work is getting over once they have the handhold,
and I expect them to do that 90%. If they don't have the strength to get
over the wall, I'll be glad to direct them to a tree branch where they
can practice pull-ups and build up the muscle so they can come back later
and make it over.
>gee, you and karma should get together distributing toys and cigarettes
>to people you don't think deserve it. how noble.
I'm just going to ignore this.
>sorry to be so brutal, gregg, i thought i saw a human being in there at
>one point. but i just don't know . . .
Now you discount that I'm a human being because I don't agree with you.
What a wonderful and caring person you are.
--
|-----------------------------------------------------|-------------------|
|GREAT MOMENTS IN CHANNEL SURFING: #21 IN A SERIES-- | Copyright 1995 |
|What do I do when I've got a whole group of thirsty | |
|kids? I give them... the strongest sleep aid you can| GREG-MAN: |
|buy without a prescription. |greg...@netcom.com|
|-----------------------------------------------------|-------------------|
Ram Samudrala
>There is a school of philosophy that believes everything that happens to
>you is a result of a choice you made. If you get mugged, you made the
>choice to be walking in that area at that time. In that school of
>thought everything is your fault...
Don't confuse "fault" with "result of a choice". A fault indicates
some degree of imbalance. The school of philosophy I adhere to,
commonly referred to as existentialism, says everything that happens
is a result of your choices. This is a very trivial statement---it is
a tautology. But from here, you take it a step further. Everything
you do is a result of your own choice. Everything that happens to you
is a result of choices you make. You can make any choice and do
anything you want---nothing can hold you back. But remember that
more than 5 billion people in the world also are making similar
choices and thus this logically imposes a responsibility on you that
you think about these 5 billion people before you do anything. Thus
what follows (as a logical consequence---this is the existential
REASON) is that you should never do anything to others you wouldn't
want done to yourself.
Almost all people violate this "logical rule", which is what I think
is responsible for the miserable existence that humanity is in. On
the Internet, given that there's no way physical violence can be
achieved, this rule works reasonably well. Someone posts something
naive. Someone flames this person. Some flames them back and so on.
It's what makes it the greatest thing in the world, IMO. All the
political theories about anarchy have been tried out and have worked
for 25 years at least. Of course, this falls apart if you have some
sort of a rule-based system.
--Ram
r...@elan1.carb.nist.gov The suburbs are when they cut down all the
trees and then name the streets after them!
---Alfred E Neuman
Greg-man
He knew the risks he took by not taking steps to maintain his health
better. He knew what he could have done, but didn't. Luckily, it turned
out to be a side-effect of a new medicine he's taking and not a heart
attack. But the entire time, he never said "why me?" He knew why.
>and you know, i do want people to be self-reliant, we all have the same
>goal, but the brutality you guys approach it with only makes people more
>despondent.
Excuse me, madame hypocrite? I fail to percieve a lack of brutality in
your words.
>actually, i didn't start doing really well in therapy 'till i was
>willing to accept karmic responsibilty for everything. not that i
>deserved to suffer, but that i had to really understand it
>
>SO I COULD BE KIND AND COMPASSIONATE.
Right. Uh-huh.
>life has a funny way of forcing us into situations that call for us to
>do what we swore we'd never do. some people go on about how they'd
>never cheat on their husband until they see the new girl or guy at work.
Forcing us into situations that call for us... Cheating is most
definitely a choice. That's like saying life put someone in a situation
where they saw something they really wanted but didn't need and could
DEFINTELY live without, but set it up so that they could steal it without
being caught. A person with strength of character will resist the
temptation.
>life is funny. i wouldn't be so high and mighty if i were you guys . . .
No you'll just be high and mighty because you're you.
>see, i know it could all disappear, that i could sit down and not be
>able to write a word, that all the little magic things i see could
>disappear from my sight.
Yeah, if someone clubbed you over the head with a pipe and caused brain
damage. There is no other magic wand that could cause you to lose it
without your complicity.
>as long as i don't use that sight just for me, i'll be okay.
The most dangerous person is the one who does everything out of some
belief that they're doing it for others. Torquemada oversaw the muder
and torture of thousands, claiming it was out of concern for their
souls. If he had once thought "shit, I'm a power-hungry madman," perhaps
some of those thousands might have been spared their suffering.
And, no I do not say that it wasn't their fault. If they had recanted
their belief in the Judaic god and embraced Jesus as their savior, they
could have spared themselves all that suffering. They chose to suffer
for their god. I will not judge that choice as right or wrong, but I
will name it as a choice.
>and that's all. but greg, jez. you actually are starting to inspire
>pity in me for you.
Will you pray for me too? That's what so many Christians say when I
refuse to accept their god and save my soul by believing as they do.
I am offended and disgusted by your pity.
I may disagree with you, but I refuse to pity you because I respect your
right to disagree with me. I respect your right to have an opinion, even
if I think it is wrong. Your pity is egotistical, disrespectful, and
unconscionable. You are really a piece of work.
--
|-----------------------------------------------------|-------------------|
Kimberly B
>i hope you told you dad that he deserves a heart attack too, greg.
*This* is bullshit! I have stayed out of your posts, KJ, but this is too
fucking much. How can you wish such a thing on someone just because they
are related to someone you dislike?
You are not the only person in the world, jo, who has been abused and
raped and incarcerated and on welfare and had kids... Perhaps you don't
think I have a right to say anything because I only have three of those
five on my list, but I can provide others...I'll gladly tkae your welfare
problems if you take on my endogenous depression, for example.
I understand that your venting may help you...but do you ever consider
that kindness to others might work just as well, or even better?
I suppose if someone wished death on your child you would just showcase
it as another example of your persecution.
Kimberly (There but for a different outlook go I) Borrowdale
--
Kimberly Borrowdale *** swa...@netcom.com
"There are a number of mechanical devices which increase
sexual arousal, particularly in women. Chief amoung these
is the Mercedes-Benz 380SL convertible." --P.J. O'Rourke
Darcy VanPatten
Oh man......I just hate it when people hide behind intellectual catch
phrases. So bland--so contrived!
we are our choices....
help those who help themselves...
blah blah blah!!!
There's not much that REAL there--borrowed slogans--used to help people
live with themselves. And this Greg-man saying KJ asked to be rape--well
maybe he didn't say that outright, but the message was there. WAS SHE
ASKING FOR IT?!?!?! just sick.
People get all self-righteous thinking that "I dealt with it....I got on
with my life....I have problems too, so you're a piece of shit for not
being able to." Like just last night at a party some woman starting
saying how she was majorly disappointed with Kurt C. for taking the easy
way out. As if we can equate one persons misery with our own. The
problem is that people over generalize and over simplify
things. People are complex...we don't function all text book like. Why
do two people who are raised in the same environment turn out so
different. Why is my sister an alcoholic who can't cope with reality
when the rest of us get on ok? I don't know, but I can't use someone
elses success against someone who just can't do it.
KJK may be spent, but at least she is honest and real, which is more than
can be said for most.
Greg-man
Sorry to come back to this bit, but Kimberly's post made me look at it
again. At the time that Kathy Jo wrote this, there was no mention that
my father had come out of the hospital, that it had not been a heart
attack. She even supposed it had been a heart attack and, for all she
knew, my father could have been laying on his death bed or might possibly
have died.
Talk about an unmitigated and deliberate attempt to kick someone when
they're down. Nothing I have EVER said to her or anyone on the Usenet
can compare to the intentional cruelty and brutality in that statement.
Kathy Jo talks about misery as if she's this sainted person, out to
eliminate it, and then tries to promulgate it, tries to take someone's
pain and exacerbate it.
>SO I COULD BE KIND AND COMPASSIONATE.
Bullshit! What if I had been in mourning? Her complete narcissism shows
through here so perfectly. Everything is about you, right KJ? If
someone is suffering and in pain, but it suits your agenda to attack
them, to go for that sorest point, do it just so you can win your argument.
You'll complain to high heaven about how brutal others are and how much
you are out to battle misery, but when it will help you win a stupid net
argument you will show brutality and try to create misery that nearly
goes beyond what I could imagine.
I hope everyone is seeing this wolf in sheep's clothing. I hope everyone
is seeing KJ's hypocrisy. I hope everyone is seeing exactly how kind and
compassionate she is if you disagree with her. I hope you are seeing the
cruelty and brutality she is capable of.
It has been rare that I despise someone, KJ. I have even been friends
with some of the same Christians who prayed for me because, although I
felt they were misguided in their "pity," they were essentially good
people who really had good intentions, who wished for my salvation
because they cared for me, because in their own way they felt the love
for me that they considered their savior had for all people. I still
keep in touch by snail mail with one couple whom I was particularly close
with in college, even went to their wedding and refrained from
my normal cynicism for the afternoon, just sharing their joy instead.
But you. I see no love in you. I see clouds of bilious hatred, masked
beneath the disguise you wear. And that disguise came down, the feathers
came off those cherub's wings you wear to expose the leathery wings of a
demon beneath them. You can accuse me of whatever evils you want, but I
will NEVER be capable of topping the hateful, spiteful brutality of what
you said.
I hope you're proud of yourself.
--
|-----------------------------------------------------|-------------------|
Ram Samudrala
>"Kathleen J. Kramer" <kk...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>>i hope you told you dad that he deserves a heart attack too, greg.
I was gonna point out that the use of the word "deserves" here is more
than what Greg originally implied. I believe he said
"responsibility". My dad died when I was 4---definitely as a result
of choices he made, but from my perspective, as a fatherless child, I
think it's one of the better things to have happened to me. But my
being fatherless now is a result of choices I made and make all the
time.
>*This* is bullshit! I have stayed out of your posts, KJ, but this is too
>fucking much. How can you wish such a thing on someone just because they
>are related to someone you dislike?
The statement that Kathy Jo makes above is easily misunderstandable,
but I think there's a slight logic problem here. She didn't hope that
Greg's dad deserved a heart attack. She said she hoped that Greg said
he told this to his father, just like Greg told Kathy Jo that she was
responsible for her choices.
But again, as Greg pointed out---what if his dad had died and he was
in mourning?
--Ram
r...@elan1.carb.nist.gov Tell me why I have to be a powerslave?
I don't want to die I'm a god why can't I live on? When the life giver
dies all around is laid waste. And In my last hour I'm a slave to the
power of death. ---Iron Maiden
Ram Samudrala
>Oh man......I just hate it when people hide behind intellectual catch
>phrases. So bland--so contrived!
I don't think much of it either when people seem to think
intellectualisation is useless without proper justification. Without
action, it is. But I think there's no doubt a lot of action was
suggested in Greg's post:
>we are our choices....
>help those who help themselves...
What's wrong with this?
>There's not much that REAL there--borrowed slogans--used to help
>people live with themselves.
Why does anything have to be REAL? What's not real to you might be
real to someone else. What do you think therapy does besides helping
people living with themselves?
>And this Greg-man saying KJ asked to be rape--well maybe he didn't
>say that outright, but the message was there. WAS SHE ASKING FOR
>IT?!?!?! just sick.
Yeh, I was almost raped by a guy once (ala Pulp Fiction) and it was
stupid of me to even be in the position I ended up (alone with someone
stronger than me who I knew I should've been careful of). I got out
that situation, luckily enough, but if it had happened to me (and you
could say equally "bad" things have happened---I just don't think of
it as bad), I'd have said it was a result of choices I made. Of
course, I'd have probably killed the other guy and said "it was a
result of choices HE made." The more responsibility you take for your
choices, the better you feel, IMO. Try it out consistently sometime
instead of putting it down.
>saying how she was majorly disappointed with Kurt C. for taking the
>easy way out.
This is different. Have you ever contemplated suicide? I
haven't---to me, it's unthinkable and I am self-destructive. But I
can never imagine putting a shotgun to my head. Cobain took the HARD
way out---he made the ultimate choice (though I've known TWO heroin
addicts who killed themselves; heroin makes you paranoid!). None of
us here are talking about hard ways out.
>As if we can equate one persons misery with our own.
Exactly. But it's not about equating misery---it's about equation
solutions to the misery.
>Why is my sister an alcoholic who can't cope with reality when the
>rest of us get on ok? I don't know, but I can't use someone elses
>success against someone who just can't do it.
What would you do? Would you say then "give into the alcoholism"?
No, the people who have had success have just REFUSED to give in. Not
necessarily about alcoholism, but I met this guy (security guard who
works here) who was in a major accident, burnt all over, given up for
the dead, and then he survived and was paralysed for six months
Doctors said he'd never walk. Guess what? This is one more guy who
will say "it all is a result of choices I made."
>KJK may be spent, but at least she is honest and real, which is more
>than can be said for most.
Yeh, honest to who? You or herself? That latter is the only thing
that counts.
David C. Frier
to alt.fan.rush-limbaugh where it belongs! You understood KJK's post
about your father's "deserving" when she posted it. You responded to it
in such a way that you clearly demonstrated you understood it. Now you
bash her because she was right. Good argument.
You just can't stand that someone used the welfare system as it was
intended: to have minimal support while preparing not to need it any more!
(And if you doubt it was minimal, you try living on it for three months!)
It might come to the attention of the public that the welfare system can
succeed, and THAT would be HORRIBLE! It would cost you another $17.42 a
year in taxes! You'd have to give up... what... a day's lift ticket?
Cry me a fucking river. Right here into my /dev/null.
--David
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Life is complex: part real, part imaginary.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
GB/CM d++(-) H- s+:+ g+ p3+ au- a37 w+ v++ C+++$ U--- N++ W+ M-- -po+ Y+
t-- j++3 tv- b+++ B-- e+ u** h---- f r+++ n--- y++++
David C. Frier
> You should really READ the posts before you shoot off your mouth. I have
> APPLAUDED KJ for using welfare for only temporary support and my only
> criticism of it is when it becomes pernicious and encourages persons to
> stay on it indefinitely.
I read just fine, thank you. Your flatulence about how people who are on
welfare "deserve" poverty because of the choices they've made is the most
heartless and morally bankrupt of the many arguments I have heard for the
elimination or reduction of AFDC, etc.
You sure have a funny way of applauding KJ, from what I've read. I'll
take your flaming me as a compliment.
> You lambasted me for a point of view I have neither endorsed nor
> expressed. Instead of making me look the fool, you only showed your own
> stupidity.
I'm willing to let the assembled judge as to whether I have understood
you correctly or no.
Greg-man
To which of the three cross-posted groups are you referring? Point to
remember: check your newsgroups line before shooting off your mouth?
>You understood KJK's post
>about your father's "deserving" when she posted it. You responded to it
>in such a way that you clearly demonstrated you understood it. Now you
>bash her because she was right. Good argument.
Wrong. You see, she brought up the concept of "deserving" things when
she talked about "deserving" being raped and other things. I spoke of
choice and fault. Those are two different concepts than deserving. When
I originally responded, I looked at it from my context of choice and
fault (yes, his heart attack, had he had one, would have been his own
fault... though I would strongly refrain from saying he "deserved" it in
any way). When I looked at it from KJ's context, I realized just how
cruel a statement it was.
>You just can't stand that someone used the welfare system as it was
>intended: to have minimal support while preparing not to need it any more!
Where have I said KJ was bad for being on welfare or for using it
properly? Nay, I have applauded her for using it as intended: as a
temporary means of support until one can get on one's feet again, all the
while making strong efforts to get on one's feet.
Of course, since you obviously were looking for something about which you
could jump on me, you ignored those parts. As well, this has not been
about politics or social darwinism. I have never gone off about those
who are better genetically equipped or any master-race kind of bullshit.
I have repeatedly said that those who succeed are those who choose to
utilize their strength and that more people than KJ will admit have it
within them to do so. I have, though said, that they have to do it on
their own because it requires the strength to come from inside, not from
others.
>You'd have to give up... what... a day's lift ticket?
>Cry me a fucking river. Right here into my /dev/null.
Yes, try to portray me as one of the idle rich who goes shushing down the
slopes while laughing at those wretched poor. It would make you feel so
good. Unfortunately, I have never downhill skied in my life. I
cross-countried in Yosemite once with a school group when I was 13 and we
all sold candy bars and mints door to door to help defray the costs of
the trip.
Like most people, I'm a working stiff. Been temping as of late, working
as a file-clerk last week and this coming week. Of course, filing is my
most hated job. I hate it like some people hate needles. But I need the
money. No one engourages me and hugs me for doing what needs to be
done. I just do it. I keep a book out in the car and go read on my
lunch-break so I can keep myself sane.
You try the same propagandist strategies as KJ in attempting to portray
me as some evil republican who needs to be dealt with harshly. It makes
it so easy to throw me into some easily hated category. Fact is, I defy
easy definition. and that just makes you more pissed because it adds
disorder to your simple little binary world.
Greg-man
>I read just fine, thank you.
Bullshit you do. You read selectively and infer meanings and statements
that are not in evidence. Were this a court of law, I would have been
able to have any judge in the land strike everything you have said from
the transcript. An example follows.
>Your flatulence about how people who are on
>welfare "deserve" poverty because of the choices they've made is the most
>heartless and morally bankrupt of the many arguments I have heard for the
>elimination or reduction of AFDC, etc.
I read through ALL of my posts on this subject, from the original
"Radical Voluntarism" on. I used the word "deserve" a total of TWO
times. Once in reference to how KJ "deserves" to be rich if people will
pay her for what she's writing/saying. And once how an entire city
deserved the decrease in their police protection because the population
(of which they are a part) buys into a victim mentality and such a
wide-spread mindset allowed a jury to award millions of dollars to a man
who through his own reckless actions, deliberately ignored warnings to
the contrary and deliberately committed an act which resulted in the
injuries for which he sued. It wasn't even an accident. He thought it
would be fun, even when there were signs saying not to do it and he saw
the signs. Yet he got MILLIONS. He was a victim of himself and he got
rewarded for it. And I said that any group of people that would reward
such behavior deserve the punishment of the resulting shortfall in the
city coffers.
But NOWHERE did I say that welfare should be eliminated or that people
who are down "deserve" to be down. You are trying to put words into my
mouth to look wonderful by making me look like a shit, but the fact is
that you are not even misconstruing what I said. You are LYING and
creating things I NEVER said. That's pretty low.
Let's get this straight:
THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN "CHOICE/FAULT" AND "DESERVE"!!!
Let's say that you're driving down the street and you're peering out the
window at the buildings, trying to find a particular address. This,
unfortunately, causes you not to see a red light. You drive out into the
intersection and are hit by oncoming traffic. This results in you having
to spend months in the hospital to have countless operations to repair
all the damage to your body.
For a moment's indiscretion did you deserve six months of pain and
traction and multiple surgeries? Did you deserve the painful months of
physical therapy following that? The answer to both of these is a
resounding NO.
But, was the accident your fault? If you'd been watching where you were
going and saw the red light could you have avoided driving into the
intersection? The answer to both of these is a resounding YES?
You see, you made choices. Most importantly, you made the choice to look
at the buildings instead of looking at the road ahead of you. To think
that when I make such a statement, though, I am implying that you SHOULD
get into an accident and suffer hospitalization and surgery and physical
therapy... that's insane. But if it does happen, if you ask "why me?"
half of that question is your answer... "me." You didn't know that you
were going to drive into that intersection, you didn't know that would be
the result of what you did. But you have to accept responsibility
anyway, not for the bad result, but for the bad choice. If you
acknowledge your share of the blame in the accident, you'll learn from
it. The next time you get on the road, you'll pay a bit more attention
to what's going on ahead of you.
But, if you devolve into the victim mentality and answer "why me" with
such easy outs as "bad luck" or "God's will" or "the other driver wasn't
watching where he was going (which would be your lawyer's answer)",
you're pretty damn likely to get out of that hospital and get into
another accident in the exact same way because you NEVER acknowledged the
fact that you made a CHOICE.
To say that someone made a choice, is to say that the resulting events
happened, for some part, because of what they did. There is no karma, no
justice, no value judgement placed on anything in such a statement. It
is merely a statement of fact.
To say that someone deserves something is not to say it was a logical
consequence, being one of the possible outcomes of their actions. It is
to say that in some way it should have happened, that it was a just
punishment or reward for their actions. It places a value judgement on
both their actions and the results, and it is indicative of the personal
judgement of the individual making the statement, not of the facts
themselves.
THESE ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT CONCEPTS!
If you READ the posts, I said in two separate statements that such
concepts as welfare are okay, in theory. I said that such programs must
be shared between the giver of help and the recipient. I can give you
money to make sure you eat and have a roof over your head. And in the
time that leaves you, I expect you to work toward trying to improve your
job skills, get an education, develop your mind so that you can
eventually get a job that pays more than what I'm giving you and you will
no longer need my help. I NEVER TOOK ISSUE WITH WELFARE!
I have taken issue with these three things...
1: Kathy Jo's advocation of the point of view that some people have no
choices--I say EVERYONE has choices. Sometimes, to change a bad
situation, you might have to put yourself in a seemingly worse one for a
while, but the new situation will open up new possibilities for success.
2: Kathy Jo's victim mentality--Stop calling everyone brutal and making
one person responsible for another's misery. I will agree that NO ONE
"deserves" misery, but each person's misery is his/her own "choice" and
once they recognize that, they can better take measures to rectify it.
3: Kathy Jo's brutal vilification of and attacks upon people who disagree
with her--Luckily my father did not have a heart attack. If he did have one,
it would have been a consequence of his choices, but he would in no way
"deserve" it. Kathy Jo had a choice of words. She could have asked if I
told him it was his own fault (a question which would MUCH more closely
resemble the things I said), that he made choices that made this a
possibile outcome of his actions, but she chose to use "deserve" and thus made
a crass and spiteful value judgement about my father's life.
jr9...@albnyvms.bitnet
>
>Oh man......I just hate it when people hide behind intellectual catch
>phrases. So bland--so contrived!
>
>we are our choices....
>help those who help themselves...
>blah blah blah!!!
>
>There's not much that REAL there--borrowed slogans--used to help people
>live with themselves. And this Greg-man saying KJ asked to be rape--well
>maybe he didn't say that outright, but the message was there. WAS SHE
>ASKING FOR IT?!?!?! just sick.
>
thing was bullshit until I saw for myself that some people put themselves into
a position of "asking for it" I was at this party -- I knew most of the people
there -- people were drinking. I notice this Christian girl (I've talked to her
once or twice on campus), very drunk, walking out of the bathroom wraped in a
shower curtan saying shit like "Who's gonna fuck me." There were several guys
in the house that would have, but my date and a few of the other women dragged
her back into the bathroom. They got her dressed and someone got her out of
the house. Was she "asking for it" or was she "just drunk?" If five or ten of
the guys there nearly as drunk (none were) and had taken her up on her offer--
then what?
The little God-fearing bitch would have cried rape -- those guys would have
been jailed. Point is some people do *ask* for the trouble they get into.
But it is not "PC" to say so.
>People get all self-righteous thinking that "I dealt with it....I got on
>with my life....I have problems too, so you're a piece of shit for not
>being able to." Like just last night at a party some woman starting
>saying how she was majorly disappointed with Kurt C. for taking the easy
>way out. As if we can equate one persons misery with our own. The
>problem is that people over generalize and over simplify
>things. People are complex...we don't function all text book like. Why
>do two people who are raised in the same environment turn out so
>different. Why is my sister an alcoholic who can't cope with reality
>when the rest of us get on ok? I don't know, but I can't use someone
>elses success against someone who just can't do it.
>
>KJK may be spent, but at least she is honest and real, which is more than
>can be said for most.
>
KJK isn't honset or real. What it is is an endless stream of piss down the back
of anyone stupid enough to buy into that kind of world view.
David C. Frier
> In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.95010...@access4.digex.net>,
> David C. Frier <du...@digex.com> wrote:
> >So why read this group? Or post to it?
>
> To which of the three cross-posted groups are you referring? Point to
> remember: check your newsgroups line before shooting off your mouth?
Sorry, you're right about that. I'm referring to a.f.d-w. If you so
despise KJ as you said (while applauding her??? innersting), why DO you
read or post to that group?
> >You understood KJK's post
> >about your father's "deserving" when she posted it. You responded to it
> >in such a way that you clearly demonstrated you understood it. Now you
> >bash her because she was right. Good argument.
>
> Wrong. You see, she brought up the concept of "deserving" things when
> she talked about "deserving" being raped and other things. I spoke of
> choice and fault. Those are two different concepts than deserving. When
> I originally responded, I looked at it from my context of choice and
> fault (yes, his heart attack, had he had one, would have been his own
> fault... though I would strongly refrain from saying he "deserved" it in
> any way). When I looked at it from KJ's context, I realized just how
> cruel a statement it was.
I see. So. To summarize your view of your father's (thankfully
hypothetical) heart-attack. He did what it took to cause it. It was his
fault. It was his choice to do those things. But he did not deserve it.
Well. Thanks for clearing that up. I suppose someday soon you might
share with us your own private definition of the verb "to deserve."
> >You just can't stand that someone used the welfare system as it was
> >intended: to have minimal support while preparing not to need it any more!
>
> Where have I said KJ was bad for being on welfare or for using it
> properly? Nay, I have applauded her for using it as intended: as a
> temporary means of support until one can get on one's feet again, all the
> while making strong efforts to get on one's feet.
Well... for example: Your little parable of the homeless guy, who certainly
needed a meal more than he needed a cigarette, has implications for your
view of who is and who is not a member of that class quaintly called "the
deserving poor." ooops, there's that troublesome verb again.
> Of course, since you obviously were looking for something about which you
> could jump on me, you ignored those parts. As well, this has not been
> about politics or social darwinism. I have never gone off about those
> who are better genetically equipped or any master-race kind of bullshit.
Social Darwinism is not about any of these things either. Social
Darwinism is the belief that the ordering of society as we find it
(laissez-faire) is the order that "should" be. Ed Meese's view of social
programs is a result of this sort of belief. Yours does not seem
significantly different.
> I have repeatedly said that those who succeed are those who choose to
> utilize their strength and that more people than KJ will admit have it
> within them to do so. I have, though said, that they have to do it on
> their own because it requires the strength to come from inside, not from
> others.
I see. Well, let's have a look. KJK graduates with honors from CMU and
lands a job writing for a newspaper while raising a son single-handedly,
and you're temping as a file clerk and hating it. Now, who has exerted
more of their inner strength?
Well, greg-man, conratulations. In 10 years online, I have NEVER trashed
someone as thoroughly as you have inspired me to do. You should see the
lines I ^K'ed! No, maybe not. Good job. I think we're done talking,
now. I don't like the things you make me want to say.
> |-----------------------------------------------------|-------------------|
> |GREAT MOMENTS IN CHANNEL SURFING: #21 IN A SERIES-- | Copyright 1995 |
> |What do I do when I've got a whole group of thirsty | |
> |kids? I give them... the strongest sleep aid you can| GREG-MAN: |
> |buy without a prescription. |greg...@netcom.com|
> |-----------------------------------------------------|-------------------|
On an up note, I love your .sig. Keep 'em coming!
Kathleen J. Kramer
but this is kind of sad. greg. greg, you really think that we are all as
dim witted and just a little spoiled nightmare.
On 02-Jan-95 in Let us take a good look...
user Greg...@netcom.com writes:
>From: greg...@netcom.com (Greg-man)
>Subject: Let us take a good look...
>Cc: kk...@andrew.cmu.edu
>Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 07:51:53 GMT
>
>In article <Ij1fyQC00...@andrew.cmu.edu>,
>Kathleen J. Kramer <kk...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>>i hope you told you dad that he deserves a heart attack too, greg.
>
>Sorry to come back to this bit, but Kimberly's post made me look at it
>again. At the time that Kathy Jo wrote this, there was no mention that
>my father had come out of the hospital, that it had not been a heart
>attack. She even supposed it had been a heart attack and, for all she
>knew, my father could have been laying on his death bed or might possibly
>have died.
if you're father *had* died or been seriously ill (the original post
said he had chest pains, not a heart attack, so pardon me for not acting
like he had a heart attack. you never inferred it because it never
happened! this is entire arguement is moot.
also, if your father had died or been seriously ill, you wouldn't have
been so stupid as to talk about how people get what they deserve.
>Talk about an unmitigated and deliberate attempt to kick someone when
>they're down. Nothing I have EVER said to her or anyone on the Usenet
>can compare to the intentional cruelty and brutality in that statement.
>Kathy Jo talks about misery as if she's this sainted person, out to
>eliminate it, and then tries to promulgate it, tries to take someone's
>pain and exacerbate it.
Your pain? your father didn't die. you have no pain. the post said
On 01-Jan-95 in Radical Voluntarism...
user Greg...@netcom.com writes:
you're busted again, you dick. if you were so concerned about your
father, why didn't you ever mention him again? and why were you outside
smoking cigarettes with a homeless man? okay, so you had to smoke. i can
see that. but you showed absolutely no concern for your father.
as you show no concern for anyone else either, you slimey bastard.
>>SO I COULD BE KIND AND COMPASSIONATE.
>
>Bullshit! What if I had been in mourning? Her complete narcissism shows
>through here so perfectly. Everything is about you, right KJ? If
i am sure as i am fat, that if you were in mourning, you'd have told us.
what, were you waiting to pick up your gfather's corpse while talking to
the homeless man about it being his fault that he was homeless?
man oh man. you are funny. but frightening. you really don't see the
weakness of your logic. trying to expose me for the self-centered
scandal of a whore i really am, eh clark?
>someone is suffering and in pain, but it suits your agenda to attack
>them, to go for that sorest point, do it just so you can win your argument.
that ain't why i won my arugement you dumb bunny.
>You'll complain to high heaven about how brutal others are and how much
>you are out to battle misery, but when it will help you win a stupid net
>argument you will show brutality and try to create misery that nearly
>goes beyond what I could imagine.
>
>I hope everyone is seeing this wolf in sheep's clothing. I hope everyone
>is seeing KJ's hypocrisy. I hope everyone is seeing exactly how kind and
>compassionate she is if you disagree with her. I hope you are seeing the
>cruelty and brutality she is capable of.
just like they said, the wool of a sheep is just as warm as the skin of
a wolf, greg. no, that statement had no relevance to this note. see, i'm
starting to be just like the greg-man! yippie yie jo!!!! cowpatty eater
and madge, my sidekick. i can around the country on her back. welcome
aboard you bunch of whores!!!
Kathleen J. Kramer
but this is kind of sad. greg. greg, you really think that we are all as
dim witted and just a little spoiled nightmare.
On 02-Jan-95 in Let us take a good look...
user Greg...@netcom.com writes:
>From: greg...@netcom.com (Greg-man)
>Subject: Let us take a good look...
>Cc: kk...@andrew.cmu.edu
>Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 07:51:53 GMT
>
>In article <Ij1fyQC00...@andrew.cmu.edu>,
>Kathleen J. Kramer <kk...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>>i hope you told you dad that he deserves a heart attack too, greg.
AND STILL YOU SAY ABOUT HOW OTHER PEOPLE GET WHAT THEY DESERVE, HOMELESS
PEOPLE WHO JUST GOT OUT THE HOSPITAL FOR GETTING BEAT UP, but when it
comes to thinking someone would inflict the same philosophy on YOU, YOU
FUCKER, on someone you care about, then it's the most evil henious shit.
but when you think it about other people, it's okay.
you, you . . . grrrr. . . .
>Sorry to come back to this bit, but Kimberly's post made me look at it
>again. At the time that Kathy Jo wrote this, there was no mention that
>my father had come out of the hospital, that it had not been a heart
>attack. She even supposed it had been a heart attack and, for all she
>knew, my father could have been laying on his death bed or might possibly
>have died.
if you're father *had* died or been seriously ill (the original post
said he had chest pains, not a heart attack, so pardon me for not acting
like he had a heart attack. you never inferred it! you were waiting for
your father after having been there all day. i thought you were waiting
for him to come out. oh greg man, this is entire arguement is moot.
also, if your father had died or been seriously ill, you wouldn't have
been so stupid as to talk about how people get what they deserve.
>Talk about an unmitigated and deliberate attempt to kick someone when
unmitigated and deliberate are basically the same in the intent of their
meaning. therefore, you should have only choosen one. except that either
are still tired cliches. you fancy yourself a writer, eh?
AND A COMEDIAN. I FUCKING FORGOT THAT YOU SAID YOU WERE A COMEDIAN! oh
that is so funny. man.
>they're down. Nothing I have EVER said to her or anyone on the Usenet
>can compare to the intentional cruelty and brutality in that statement.
>Kathy Jo talks about misery as if she's this sainted person, out to
>eliminate it, and then tries to promulgate it, tries to take someone's
>pain and exacerbate it.
Your pain? you expressed no pain in the post, just talked about radical
bullshit about how everyone gets what they deserve. but i thought the
part about your father having chestpain was a real clencher, won my
sympathy and support. clever rhetorical device. don't blame me for
responding. the post said
On 01-Jan-95 in Radical Voluntarism...
user Greg...@netcom.com writes:
>Today I stood outside the emergency room of a hospital, talking with a
>homeless man who had just been released as he smoked a cigarette he
>bummed from me. He complained about his life, but he also took
>responsibility for it. When he talked about how he was not going to get
>an apartment, he also admitted that he slept through the appointment he
>had with the housing agency that was going to get it for him. He talked
>about the guys he knew who kept getting tickets for drinking and sleeping
>on the beach and, no matter how many times they got busted, they kept
>going to that same beach, kept drinking, and kept getting busted. He, on
>the other hand was clearing up his warrants and getting his life in
>order. The reason he was in the hospital was because some guy kicked the
>shit out of him (the new boyfriend of his ex-girlfriend). Sounded like a
>sort of Bukowski-esque life. We finished our cigarettes and he walked
>off while I went back in to wait for my father, whom I'd rushed there at
>7:30 this morning when he had severe chest pains
well if your father died this day or had a heart attack and you were on
the net that same night, well holy shit! and you only mention him once!
>
>Sure there is misery, but there is also hope, there is also
>perserverance, there is also self-reliance. I look for those things. I
>try to look for the strength in people, not the pain, because it is the
>strength that needs to be seen.
pain is a source of strength, the only source you numbskull. but alot of
would-be heros die at the hands of men who think like you, greg-manned.
their souls stain our bloody hands. they needed our help, trapped in
some hell but for a little love. just someone who really cared. man.
>
>The guy asked for a cigarette, but he didn't ask for money. I didn't
>offer money either, because I saw him beginning to take care of himself.
>He was sober, lucid, and looking for an honest way out.
how many people have been young and asked people for a loan when they
were in a bad way and they said 'you need to take care of yourself now'
when you knew they had the money and just didn't give a fuck? you
didn't give him any money because you think you're such a humanitarian
for giving him a cigarette. man.
>I don't want to kill you. I don't want to hurt you. I just want to see
>you become what you have the potential to be and stop posting 400+ lines
>of meandering self-pity and accusations against the rest of the world.
i don't know what you want from me, i've been getting national press for
my writing and am working full time. shit. concindering what just
happened with my son, i feel stronger than ever, am plowing ahead. and
my accusataions are only against you, greg man.
i know you love me so just stop this.
you're busted again. if you were so concerned about your father, why
didn't you ever mention him again? and why were you outside smoking
cigarettes with a homeless man? okay, so you had to smoke. i can see
that. but you showed absolutely no concern for your father.
as you show no concern for anyone else either, you slimey bastard.
>>SO I COULD BE KIND AND COMPASSIONATE.
>
>Bullshit! What if I had been in mourning? Her complete narcissism shows
>through here so perfectly. Everything is about you, right KJ? If
i am sure as i am fat, that if you were in mourning, you'd have told us.
what, were you waiting to pick up your father's corpse while talking to
the homeless man about it being his fault that he was homeless? and
then you went home to cruise the net? man.
man oh man. you are funny. but frightening. you really don't see the
weakness of your logic. trying to expose me for the self-centered
scandal of a whore i really am, eh clark?
>someone is suffering and in pain, but it suits your agenda to attack
>them, to go for that sorest point, do it just so you can win your argument.
that ain't why i won my arugement you dumb bunny.
>You'll complain to high heaven about how brutal others are and how much
>you are out to battle misery, but when it will help you win a stupid net
>argument you will show brutality and try to create misery that nearly
>goes beyond what I could imagine.
>
>I hope everyone is seeing this wolf in sheep's clothing. I hope everyone
>is seeing KJ's hypocrisy. I hope everyone is seeing exactly how kind and
>compassionate she is if you disagree with her. I hope you are seeing the
>cruelty and brutality she is capable of.
just like they said, the wool of a sheep is just as warm as the skin of
a wolf, greg. no, that statement had no relevance to this note. see, i'm
starting to be just like the greg-man! yippie yie jo!!!! cowpatty eater
and madge, my sidekick. i can around the country on her back. welcome
aboard you bunch of whores!!!
>It has been rare that I despise someone, KJ. I have even been friends
>with some of the same Christians who prayed for me because, although I
>felt they were misguided in their "pity," they were essentially good
pity and mercy. only assholes confuse the two. hearless bastards. but i
sense that you're trying to be good greg man so why don't you just quit
trying to prove, well, how tough you are or some shit? what is the shame
in caring about people?
>people who really had good intentions, who wished for my salvation
>because they cared for me, because in their own way they felt the love
>for me that they considered their savior had for all people. I still
>keep in touch by snail mail with one couple whom I was particularly close
>with in college, even went to their wedding and refrained from
>my normal cynicism for the afternoon, just sharing their joy instead.
>
>But you. I see no love in you. I see clouds of bilious hatred, masked
>beneath the disguise you wear. And that disguise came down, the feathers
>came off those cherub's wings you wear to expose the leathery wings of a
>demon beneath them. You can accuse me of whatever evils you want, but I
>will NEVER be capable of topping the hateful, spiteful brutality of what
>you said.
see, i knew you loved me. if i was so evil, why would i be beseaching
you all to stop and think, to be kind? it's so silly.
>I hope you're proud of yourself.
no you don't, you dick. you just tell me i'm all evil and shit and now
you want me to be proud of myself too? well i don't know. i'll have to
ask my agent.
but i hope you're ashamed of yourself. no i don't. i just want you to
admit that you're wrong.
love
tippy toed jo
David C. Frier
a new facet - what you edits from the version you posts!
ph...@escape.com
>Sure there is misery, but there is also hope, there is also
>perserverance, there is also self-reliance. I look for those things. I
>try to look for the strength in people, not the pain, because it is the
>strength that needs to be seen.
You don't seem to realize, that there is no hope, and responsibility is
meaningless. Your will and actions have little or no effect on your own life.
Any other belief is based upon a hallucination that you create to make your
life more bareable.
ph...@escape.com
>But you. I see no love in you. I see clouds of bilious hatred, masked
>beneath the disguise you wear. And that disguise came down, the feathers
>came off those cherub's wings you wear to expose the leathery wings of a
>demon beneath them. You can accuse me of whatever evils you want, but I
>will NEVER be capable of topping the hateful, spiteful brutality of what
>you said.
>I hope you're proud of yourself.
Spite, hatred, and bitterness are good, not evil. Never mistake that.
Leona Freeman
So, avoiding that bean burrito at lunch wouldn't have helped you
avoid having disgusting smelling farts that night, right? You're a victim
of fate.
And flatulence.
-Leona-(You're also a twit)
--
*****************************************************************************
* Binky The Elf is having suicidal thoughts..... *
* He found out Dolly Parton was his mother....and he was a bottlefed baby!*
*****************************************************************************
Jason A. Whitgard III
You know Greg,
At first I had a whitty, inspirational reply that I was going to
use on you, but after having read your other writting, and having
evaluated you as a person, I have come to one inescapible conclusion;
FUCK YOU! You sactimonious asshole! Just where in the hell do
you get off on telling others how to live their lives? Who made YOU God?
There are many out here to whom the INet is one of the ONLY
outlets they have in their otherwise dreary, dull lives! Or there are
still others who keep the pain wrapped up inside so tightly until they
either unload it or snap.
I would much rather listen to kathy jo's words then to have a
no-brain fuck-up like you trying to tell her to, (and I admit
paraphrasing) "get a life"!
She already has one, shitty though it might be, while you on the
otherhand, are obviously in need of one!
To tell the truth, I have until now NEVER been as pissed off at
ANYONE as I am at your no-brain whining about how bad your life was!
Listen up jack-off; If you want to tell everyone how fucked up
your life is, then BLOODY WELL TELL IT and don't waste other peoples'
time trying to justify your "rightous anger" at society!
Good God, listen to me! Feel proud of yourself you shit eating,
fuck faced moron, you've managed to drag me down to your level, and even
lower. I'll be lucky if my Sysadmin doesn't ban me for life now.
So have youself a jolly good laugh at my expense,
You're just a worthless piece of shit that I've wasted
both my time and words upon.... So get the HELL out of our faces!
Jason
Karma Tucker
>From: jas...@pinn.net (Jason A. Whitgard III)
>Subject: Re: Radical Voluntarism...
>Date: 7 Jan 1995 01:14:30 GMT
> Jason
Jase!!! Have a Prozac.... The WHOLE point of News Groups is disscussion.
Not everyone is going to agree with you, or KJ for that matter. Wouldn't it be
boring if we did?
Karma "looking forward to many disscussions with KJ, agreeable or not." Tucker
BTW, Jase, KJ can defend herself. Don't make it a life's work, OK?
Karma
Beth Lauzon
> You don't seem to realize, that there is no hope, and responsibility is
> meaningless. Your will and actions have little or no effect on your own life.
> Any other belief is based upon a hallucination that you create to make your
> life more bareable.
You're right, hope is meaningless. All it does is make you bitter in
the end. And a belief in a supreme being is the same way - meaningless.
Beth
who realizes we all "just get by" in the end - so why try?
Jim Dement
It may all be an illusion...but without the illussion of hope...what's
the point?
May god stand between you and harm, in all the dark places you must go.
Erasmus
era...@access.digex.net
W
>
>
> I was going through all of the posts and nothing was being said that
> made my hackles rise (and I have such cute hackles) enough to
> post a response. I was beginning to fear that I had lost my
> bitterness. That I was becoming too normal to stay as even a lurker
> on this oh so beautifully bitter group, and after such a short time
> too. But, hallelueyah, I am NOT NORMAL. I'm still bitter, and thus
> beautiful, for my hackles have risen (Still cute, too). And to
> what do I owe this wonderful revelation? To Jim Dement, who after
> espying Beth's lovely, and beautifully bitter, lament of despair
> and hopelessness, had the horrifically bad taste to say:
>
>
> >Wthout hope...there is no purpose in life.
> >
> >It may all be an illusion...but without the illussion of hope...what's
> >the point?
> >
> >
> >May god stand between you and harm, in all the dark places you must go.
> >
> >Erasmus
> >era...@access.digex.net
>
>
> It makes me oh so bitter. Bitterness is purpose enough for me.
>
> Cheryl
>
> Remember, the kids who were way too happy always had cooties.
Ahh... a fine mind! A fine mind! Encore! Encore!
>>A bitter someone somewhere<<
Kathleen J. Kramer
>
>>Wthout hope...there is no purpose in life.
>>
>>It may all be an illusion...but without the illussion of hope...what's
>>the point?
>>
>>
>>May god stand between you and harm, in all the dark places you must go.
>>
>>Erasmus
>>era...@access.digex.net
>
was all going on 'cause i've been away but this is the beautiful truth.
i just hate it when people put their misery in my light places.
leeb...@delphi.com
>was all going on 'cause i've been away but this is the beautiful truth.
>
>i just hate it when people put their misery in my light places.
part of me.
(Why do I have this overpowering mental image of KathyJo wearing her magic
crystal amulet, listening to Enya, and smiling to herself as she contemplates
the roles of godesses as the true forces of peace and light in the universe?
Shuder.....)
JEMS EBERHARD HORBEL
JEMS EBERHARD
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