New beginings?
Myk Rushton
Below is a bit from a mail I sent to the PcNZ email list. I post it here to
start a bit of discussion about the future of Pc institutes and network
support organisations
[start]
With consideration to Joanna's post from Robyn [See separate post
PERMACULTURE DESIGNERS GATHERING 2000, the 75th and last issue of
Permaculture International Journal (PIJ) and the drop in membership numbers
of overseas Pc institutes and associations. My general thoughts/idea/designs
are that the more we communicate the stronger we are and the greater the
number of Pc structures, both physical and invisible, we can put in place
that are readily accessible the greater the exposure of Pc in NZ/globally.
This is a time of new beginning for PINZ the newsletter and permaculture
globally.
[Snip: bit about creating a PcNZ bulletin board and the idea of starting a
alt.permaculturenz newsgroup]
How many people who read this ng subscribe to or are members of the
organisation that represents them at a national level? i.e PINZ (NZ) PA
(GB). I am a member of both the NZ and the GB organisations, not because I'm
a membership freak but because they represent me at a level I cannot
represent myself and because they provide a focus and point of relative
stability, guidance and support. This they cannot offer for free so they
need my financial support.
What do others expect from their representative organisation?
Myk
--
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
<permac...@wave.co.nz> wrote:
>[Snip: bit about creating a PcNZ bulletin board and the idea of starting a
>alt.permaculturenz newsgroup]
Very bad idea... Just use this newsgroup, alt.permaculture for all.
Start alt.permaculturenz then *.*oz, *.*nc-usa....
Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm ICQ#27930345
lflo...@mindspring.com lon...@metalab.unc.edu
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
Reedbed
Myk Rushton <permac...@wave.co.nz> wrote>
> How many people who read this ng subscribe to or are members of the
> organisation that represents them at a national level? i.e PINZ (NZ) PA
> (GB). I am a member of both the NZ and the GB organisations, not because
I'm
> a membership freak but because they represent me at a level I cannot
> represent myself and because they provide a focus and point of relative
> stability, guidance and support. This they cannot offer for free so they
> need my financial support.
>
> What do others expect from their representative organisation?
>
Hi Myk,
We're not members of any association - AFAIK there isn't one in Ireland. We
used to subscribe to the UK Permaculture Magazine, but dropped many
memberships and subscriptions when we were at a particularly broke period,
and wanted to concentrate on 'doing it'. I particularly dropped Greenpeace
when I met someone who had been to their HQ in Amsterdam. I was paying my
subs to fund direct action, and not marbled halls :-)
Not being at all involved in 'official' permaculture (like many here, I
suspect), I wonder if you could explain how pc is administered. We've never
really discussed how people become pc designers, teachers etc - maybe it
would be informative to all to know more. As I said at the chat room, I'd
seen pc described elsewhere as a kind of' 'pyramid-selling' job, and while I
think this is a cheap shot, it may sometimes appear so to cynics.
So - I can't give an opinion on what my local organisation does - I've
reached the stage in life where, if I were to sit in another room with a
committee of any description, I'd scream. And I tend to agree with Groucho
about club membership :-)
However, one point that came loud and clear out of your post was the issue
of communication. IMHO, the internet seems the natural medium for
communicating and promoting permaculture - at all levels. I'm sure that far
far more could be done via the net - but this doesn't generate revenue in
the way that publishing books and running courses does. I was just thinking
earlier how great it would be if there were, say, a kind of on-line version
of the PC Design Manual, with live links to references and demonstration
projects, completely searchable, with forums, workshops etc. If
Permaculture was presented as a living, evolving worldwide project in which
we all felt we played a minor practical role, as opposed to what could be
seen as the 'PC Bible' which communicates it's commandments down through
loyal lieutenants - I think people might become more involved. (That's not a
criticism, more a clumsy description to illustrate a difference of
approach).
It must be more cost-effective to set up a server and host input from around
the world than to run many little publishing operations in individual
countries. It needs to be organised and present a coherent, attractive
public face. And it would need to be funded. But this is the only option,
IMHO, for the future.
It's about 8 years since we first became aware of pc. I know we're in a bit
of an environmental backwater here, but I do feel that permaculture hasn't
moved forward much since we left the UK. There are interesting projects
happening there - Sustrans, the Earth Centre, the National Forest etc etc,
which I'm sure have been affected and maybe inspired by pc-thinking, but I
bet public awareness of permaculture hasn't increased in that time. I know
it's much harder to promote positive, practical low-key projects, where
there's no product to market, and not even an identifiable eco-issue around
which to hang a protest or a campaign. But 'official' permaculture has to do
a better job of promoting itself, at least over here.
Just a few thoughts as a relative outsider...
Mark
Peter Wibberley
news:8hfr47$ab0$1...@news.wave.co.nz...
snip
> With consideration to Joanna's post from Robyn [See separate post
> PERMACULTURE DESIGNERS GATHERING 2000, the 75th and last issue of
> Permaculture International Journal (PIJ) and the drop in membership
numbers
> of overseas Pc institutes and associations. My general
thoughts/idea/designs
> are that the more we communicate the stronger we are and the greater the
> number of Pc structures, both physical and invisible, we can put in place
> that are readily accessible the greater the exposure of Pc in NZ/globally.
> This is a time of new beginning for PINZ the newsletter and permaculture
> globally.
Hi Myk
The original post re :PERMACULTURE DESIGNERS GATHERING 2000 ...I thought,
was basically a gathering of folks who had aquired some pc qualifications
from a recognised source ...who wanted to brainstorm ideas on how they could
present a fresher image for the benefit of their design business.
>snip: bit about creating a PcNZ bulletin board and the idea of starting a
> alt.permaculturenz newsgroup]
I have to agree with Lawrence on this one
> How many people who read this ng subscribe to or are members of the
> organisation that represents them at a national level?
I'm not a member of any organisation, I (like Mark) have had my fill of
committees and meetings... and whilst I think many people could and would
gain a lot from discussing pc in a "summit" type forum...it's not something
I could ever bring myself to be involved in.
I believe that as a designer, a person should have the backing of a designer
owned and operated body.... and that they (the designers themselves) should
set and adhere to quality guidelines..... if they don't do that ....someone
else will step in to govern them... so it's probably important that
designers do get together to discuss the important aspects of pc
design........... having said all that.... I don't think that pc can be
marketed... a book on pc can be marketed... and a pc design business can
market themselves..... but pc is a set of principles........
IMO... most people who practice pc couldn't or wouldn't employ a designer...
maybe cos they want to do it all themselves (that to me is all the fun)...
or because they live a lifestyle which doesn't allow much (if anything) to
be spent on professional services...
I think PIJ reached a point where they found they were re-hashing old
information, this seems to be true of many gardening/grass roots/earth
garden type magazines I subscribed for a while to PIJ.. but found (even in
the short time I was a subscriber)... that they seemed to be in a downward
spiral.... towards the end very few "new" ideas where being
discussed........thats not their fault....perhaps there aren't that many new
ideas in pc.... perhaps Mollison and Holmgren laid much more than a
foundation stone..... perhaps their original concept was/is strong enough to
be "the ultimate word".
We can refine some of the original concepts but can we better them ?... if
we spend a couple of hours each month round a table discussing pc concepts,
what are the expected outcomes? I believe pc designers are in a unique
position to be able to spread the word and make a living out of pc.... but
anyone with money can pay someone to design a system for them...... if they
don't have that feeling for permaculture inside them ...they might as well
have spent their money on a new garage or patio....... so ....... summing up
finally :-)
I think we all need to educate people about pc as and when we can... but we
also have to lead by example....representative bodies can help to spread the
word ... but when it comes down to real hands on stuff I find them of very
little value.
I wouldn't join a permaculture organisation... I enjoy discussing pc here
but "doing it" (pc) is my own private joy :-)..
If I was a designer.... I would join every representative body around....
If that's confused ya....... you're getting close to understanding how I
feel :-)
see ya
Pete
John Neale Baraclough
from "Peter Wibberley" <pe...@twpo.com.> contains these words:
I find this an interesting thread as it touches on so much of how
many new ideas or practices are assimilated, or not, into widespread
consciousness and expanding practice. Marks comment about the pyramid
business aspect should be taken seriously.
I believe that as a designer, a person should have the backing of a designer
> owned and operated body.... and that they (the designers themselves) should
> set and adhere to quality guidelines..... if they don't do that ....someone
> else will step in to govern them...
That is the pattern of development in the wide and controversial
field of complementary therapies as successive waves come in from the
public perception of loony fringe, to widespread acceptance.Clients
selecting a commercial service soon compare variations of skill and
want a recognisable standard. Practitioners trying to make a living,
tried to hammer out some kind of workable national
accreditation.Where "alternative" meets "commercial approval", some
imposed criteria of sheep and goats will inevitably follow. That is
often a particularly unwelcome issue to the very kind of people whose
nature draws them away from "establishment" structures of commercial
organisation and towards a very personal perception of their
involvement in the life forces of the planet.PC designers may well
find that conundrum self defeating in the end.
Janet
AndreaMc
Reedbed <ree...@gofree.indigo.ie> wrote in message
news:czW_4.1180$v4....@news.indigo.ie...
>
<snip>
> Mark
>
Hi Mark and All,
Your post reminded me that there was an article by Simon Fell in regards to
pc and the www in (the latest?) PIJ. He also feels that this is the way to
go and his proposed outline for a site was something between what you've
described here and the Nat. Living site with on-line forums, classes etc...
His site is currently under construction and he is going to let me know when
he's got it up and running, when he does I'll post the URL if any one's
interested.
Andrea
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
<permac...@wave.co.nz> wrote:
>Greetings Lawrence et al
>
>Lawrence F. London, Jr. <lflo...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>news:vhiojsgrq001ufgss...@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 5 Jun 2000 21:12:47 +1200, "Myk Rushton"
>> <permac...@wave.co.nz> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >[Snip: bit about creating a PcNZ bulletin board and the idea of starting
>a
>> >alt.permaculturenz newsgroup]
>>
>> Very bad idea... Just use this newsgroup, alt.permaculture for all.
>> Start alt.permaculturenz then *.*oz, *.*nc-usa....
>
>Do you really think so? I would have thought that such an evolution of
>newsgroup hierarchy could only benefit the biorigions and places where
>permaculture is practised and internet access is available. If we are to get
>more people on board and continue communicating in the one forum it would
>get very crowded/noisy etc. Applying the ethics we can provide peoplecare
What? Alt.permaculture crowded and noisy? Never happen :-)
If its PC information, opinion, news, etc etc, Len, Malcolm, Janet
that one seeks why have to subscribe to a multiplicity of forums
to gain access to those resources. PC info is PC info; no problem with
NC specific info is posted in the same place as NZ PC info. We all
want to konw what is going on everywhere else. One can learn much more
this way and it is a way to globally unite much more effectively. Eh?
>because we could put inplace a more identifiable support structure,
>fairshare because every body gets to discuss topics in an area they feel
>comfortable in and earthcare by providing unique bioregional contact points
>where more information about a specific continent/area/bioregion etc can be
>found discussed. I must confess to being all for multileveled newsgroup
>hierarchy, having newsgroups such as alt.permaculture.newbie, where those of
>us who are more experienced could monitor and point enquirers in the right
>direction, or alt.pemaculture.graduates for Pc course graduates to discuss
>their graduation pathway, or alt.permaculture.assistance for specific
>requests, or alt.permaculture.chat for you know what, I could go one but I
>won't :-). Another reason multi level newsgroup hierarchy would benefit Pc
>is that all newsgroups gradually develop their experts and resident
>community so although it may not be possible to monitor all groups every
>body could benefit in the long term. I believe that a larger hierarchy would
>add yet another invisible Pc structure to those that are currently being
>built in other mediums and can only lead to a greater Pc community on the
>internet - a strengthening of the community - and greater Pc exposure.
>
>Myk
Myk Rushton
Lawrence F. London, Jr. <lflo...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:vhiojsgrq001ufgss...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 5 Jun 2000 21:12:47 +1200, "Myk Rushton"
> <permac...@wave.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
> >[Snip: bit about creating a PcNZ bulletin board and the idea of starting
a
> >alt.permaculturenz newsgroup]
>
> Very bad idea... Just use this newsgroup, alt.permaculture for all.
> Start alt.permaculturenz then *.*oz, *.*nc-usa....
Do you really think so? I would have thought that such an evolution of
newsgroup hierarchy could only benefit the biorigions and places where
permaculture is practised and internet access is available. If we are to get
more people on board and continue communicating in the one forum it would
get very crowded/noisy etc. Applying the ethics we can provide peoplecare
because we could put inplace a more identifiable support structure,
fairshare because every body gets to discuss topics in an area they feel
comfortable in and earthcare by providing unique bioregional contact points
where more information about a specific continent/area/bioregion etc can be
found discussed. I must confess to being all for multileveled newsgroup
hierarchy, having newsgroups such as alt.permaculture.newbie, where those of
us who are more experienced could monitor and point enquirers in the right
direction, or alt.pemaculture.graduates for Pc course graduates to discuss
their graduation pathway, or alt.permaculture.assistance for specific
requests, or alt.permaculture.chat for you know what, I could go one but I
won't :-). Another reason multi level newsgroup hierarchy would benefit Pc
is that all newsgroups gradually develop their experts and resident
community so although it may not be possible to monitor all groups every
body could benefit in the long term. I believe that a larger hierarchy would
add yet another invisible Pc structure to those that are currently being
built in other mediums and can only lead to a greater Pc community on the
internet - a strengthening of the community - and greater Pc exposure.
Myk
--
Myk Rushton
> We're not members of any association - AFAIK there isn't one in Ireland.
We
> used to subscribe to the UK Permaculture Magazine, but dropped many
> memberships and subscriptions when we were at a particularly broke period,
> and wanted to concentrate on 'doing it'. I particularly dropped Greenpeace
> when I met someone who had been to their HQ in Amsterdam. I was paying my
> subs to fund direct action, and not marbled halls :-)
I understand your situation. As for organisations/corporations like
greenpeace that many environmentalists/eco
warriors/sympathisers/supportors/vegetarian etc support, I'm concerned they
have begun to emulate those they originally opposed and that I have done
enough supporting of things at a national/global level and now prefer to act
locally and change opions and actions rather than multinational government
policy.
> I wonder if you could explain how pc is administered. We've never
> really discussed how people become pc designers, teachers etc - maybe it
> would be informative to all to know more. As I said at the chat room, I'd
> seen pc described elsewhere as a kind of' 'pyramid-selling' job, and while
I
> think this is a cheap shot, it may sometimes appear so to cynics.
I'll pass your enquiry back to Andy Goldring at the Permaculture Association
GB office and see if he'll write a reply to your question rather than give
you my understanding of it. (I beleive that all online Pc support
organisations should monitoring this newsgroup and be ready to issue rapid
replies to such questions to prevent the blind leading the blind and show a
presents every now and again to increase their exposure. It would also give
them an opportunity to gauge public opinion and requirements). Teaching can
appear to be a bit like multilevel marketing where the hidden product for
sale is the course curriculum it self rather than the philosophy (if there
is one yet?) of permaculture and its application to lifestyle and
sustainability and what it's final goal is (does Pc have a goal?)
> So - I can't give an opinion on what my local organisation does - I've
> reached the stage in life where, if I were to sit in another room with a
> committee of any description, I'd scream. And I tend to agree with Groucho
> about club membership :-)
I don't want to be part of a commitee either but I do believe that we should
support the organisatios which represent us and our chosen
disipline/lifestyle in all it's facets at a national level.
> However, one point that came loud and clear out of your post was the issue
> of communication. IMHO, the internet seems the natural medium for
> communicating and promoting permaculture - at all levels. I'm sure that
far
> far more could be done via the net - but this doesn't generate revenue in
> the way that publishing books and running courses does. I was just
thinking
> earlier how great it would be if there were, say, a kind of on-line
version
> of the PC Design Manual, with live links to references and demonstration
> projects, completely searchable, with forums, workshops etc. If
> Permaculture was presented as a living, evolving worldwide project in
which
> we all felt we played a minor practical role, as opposed to what could be
> seen as the 'PC Bible' which communicates it's commandments down through
> loyal lieutenants - I think people might become more involved. (That's not
a
> criticism, more a clumsy description to illustrate a difference of
> approach).
What a great vision but how would we go about implementing such a huge task?
See my other post in the thread about multi level newsgroup hierarchies and
how they could perhaps assit in the development of permaculture.
> It must be more cost-effective to set up a server and host input from
around
> the world than to run many little publishing operations in individual
> countries. It needs to be organised and present a coherent, attractive
> public face. And it would need to be funded. But this is the only option,
> IMHO, for the future.
I would imagine so but discussions on the permaculture mailing list have
shown that some people still feel that the internet and computers in general
are usustainable and environmentally damaging and should not be advocated as
part of a sustainable solution. I see the internet as a resource we should
use to its fullest capacity and that like computers they should be used -
for the present anyway.
> It's about 8 years since we first became aware of pc. I know we're in a
bit
> of an environmental backwater here, but I do feel that permaculture hasn't
> moved forward much since we left the UK. There are interesting projects
> happening there - Sustrans, the Earth Centre, the National Forest etc etc,
> which I'm sure have been affected and maybe inspired by pc-thinking, but I
> bet public awareness of permaculture hasn't increased in that time. I know
> it's much harder to promote positive, practical low-key projects, where
> there's no product to market, and not even an identifiable eco-issue
around
> which to hang a protest or a campaign. But 'official' permaculture has to
do
> a better job of promoting itself, at least over here.
I think that one reason for this is that 'Permaculture' when it was first
conceived (1978) included under its name many ideas that at the time were
considered fringe. These days such ideas are mainstream topics/concepts that
many people can readily discuss and understand. (i.e. strawbale building,
organics, recycling, energy efficiency, natural step principle,
precautionary principle, passive solar, windpower, reedbeds, aquaculture,
biodiversity and sustainability to name but a few) . Most of the available
and new literature has a tendency to describe these mainstream topics in
terms of permaculture making 'Permaculture' seem like a huge subject! The
literature can also be guilty of attempting to explain the application of
permaculture without explaining clearly what 'Permaculture' is. In fact I
beleive there is a general tendency towards explaining the processes
involved in 'Permaculture' rather than what 'Permaculture' is. Don't get me
wrong there are some very good books and some very good articles but both
are sometimes difficult to find and can appear in the minority.
Something else to consider is that although many of the original topics
brought together under the banner of permaculture have been widely accepted
by the mainstream and many of its priciples and ideas have been adopted in
isolation by businesses/organisations etc, Permaculture itself is still a
grass roots movement at many levels.
Myk
Caveat: I represent myself and speak only my opinion
--
Myk Rushton
Peter Wibberley wrote lots of interesting things including
> The original post re :PERMACULTURE DESIGNERS GATHERING 2000 ...I thought,
> was basically a gathering of folks who had aquired some pc qualifications
> from a recognised source ...who wanted to brainstorm ideas on how they
could
> present a fresher image for the benefit of their design business.
It is, but I beleive these forums (ng and lists) are subscribe to by many
who benefit from the discussion of others.
> I believe that as a designer, a person should have the backing of a
designer
> owned and operated body.... and that they (the designers themselves)
should
> set and adhere to quality guidelines..... if they don't do that
....someone
> else will step in to govern them... so it's probably important that
> designers do get together to discuss the important aspects of pc
> design........... having said all that.... I don't think that pc can be
> marketed... a book on pc can be marketed... and a pc design business can
> market themselves..... but pc is a set of principles........
I agree about the designed bit but don't see why Pc cannot be marketed. See
altenative post in this thread and on the permaculture list
> IMO... most people who practice pc couldn't or wouldn't employ a
designer...
> maybe cos they want to do it all themselves (that to me is all the fun)...
> or because they live a lifestyle which doesn't allow much (if anything) to
> be spent on professional services...
Why is it only designing that falls under the catagory of Pc career or
teaching Pc by rote, what about all the other possible jobs that
permaculturalists could apply permaculture to?
> We can refine some of the original concepts but can we better them ?... if
> we spend a couple of hours each month round a table discussing pc
concepts,
> what are the expected outcomes? I believe pc designers are in a unique
> position to be able to spread the word and make a living out of pc.... but
> anyone with money can pay someone to design a system for them...... if
they
> don't have that feeling for permaculture inside them ...they might as well
> have spent their money on a new garage or patio
Very true, I see part of a designers job as being a private course tutor on
the unique aspects of the design whilst creating the design (I intend, as
part of the service I offer, to produce design brief sheets for the client
that will detail the priciples/processes/techniques/methods etc used in
their particular design. It is anticipated that the design brief sheets will
act as a unique reference for the site and empower the clients to take
control of the design at a point where they feel comfortable - it has been
suggested that by doing this I will be doing myself out of a job, but if
like you and many others say, people can't afford a designer then the
quicker they are empowered the less money they will have to pay on design
work). I believe that it is up to the desinger to decide at what point the
client has taken on board enough - bearing in mind that even if they don't
end up with a fully estalbished Pc design what they have implemented will in
theory be better than nothing.
> If that's confused ya....... you're getting close to understanding how I
> feel :-)
I don't mind being confused it when I'm lucid that I get worried!
Myk
--
Peter Wibberley
snippings
> I agree about the designed bit but don't see why Pc cannot be marketed.
Hiya Myk
I think we can (and should) promote it ... but because it's a "whole
concept" instead of a specific product...I think it does pc an injustice if
we market it rather than promote it ....
I always think when "things" are marketed ..it pigeon holes them...
marketing by it's very nature seeks to identify "a market" ...ie 20 - 30
year old married, suburban .... you get the picture
more snippings
> Why is it only designing that falls under the catagory of Pc career or
> teaching Pc by rote, what about all the other possible jobs that
> permaculturalists could apply permaculture to?
I don't think designing is the only service which falls into that
catagory... employing Mark to build me a reedbed would be an example of a
professional service that I may have to have..ie if local
bylaws/conditions dictated ...... but pc design services (for me) falls
under the catagory of "something I'd like to have enough money for but
probably wouldn't buy even if I did"..... thats not to say I wouldn't learn
anything from someone who has a pc design diploma..... because I most
certainly would ...... but why pay out money to someone else to do something
for me.... which I love doing myself....OK I may not be doing it by the
book... but I'd still rather do it myself......
snippings again
>>.they might as well
> > have spent their money on a new garage or patio
> Very true, I see part of a designers job as being a private course tutor
on
> the unique aspects of the design
Thats why I do think properly accredited
designers are very much needed... they are a great way of getting the pc
message across .....they also need a representative body to ensure that not
just anyone can charge money for what could be a "shonky" design.....that
would give pc a very bad name.. because folks would think it's permaculture
which doesn't work ... instead of the poor design.
* 'Hypothetical' .....I have ooodles of money and I decide that permaculture
is in fashion, and to show my "well to do" friends that I'm trendy, I ring
you to design and build me a permaculture garden thingy :-).....you talk to
me and discover that I have absolutely no real idea what pc is...........but
I still want something permie...... so you design and build me a system
which you believe I can comfortably manage.... and because you've done your
job properly....chances are I WILL manage it and have a positive opinion of
pc..........if on the other hand I ended
up with a system which meant I couldn't keep the heated tyre covers on my
porsche at night cos the solar setup wouldn't handle it ........ I might
have a dim view of this pc thingy and tell everyone that it's just a load of
old....well you get the picture :-) *
And that's what CAN be marketed... the professional service given by
designers to their clients.... the designers ability to correctly assess
the needs of the client, and the "output" of the pc system.... that's why I
think designers are needed and have a great responsibility in their
promotion of permaculture.
snippings galore
>It is anticipated that the design brief sheets will
> act as a unique reference for the site and empower the clients to take
> control of the design at a point where they feel comfortable - it has been
> suggested that by doing this I will be doing myself out of a job
I don't think you'd be doing yourself out of a job... I think a succesful
design would increase pc's (and your) image to a point where more work would
follow...and the satisfied client would be much more likely to employ you
again...and have only good things to say about pc and pc designers.
> like you and many others say, people can't afford a designer then the
> quicker they are empowered the less money they will have to pay on design
> work)
Good point Myk....I'm just afraid that pc will be seen as "something you
need a professional to design for you otherwise it's no good" .... we still
need to keep pc "user friendly" ... otherwise it is in danger of becoming
elitist:.... perhaps like we were saying a short time ago, about thatched
roofs.. once every workers roof was thatched... now to be able to afford a
thatcher you would need to be "fairly comfortable" ... I'd hate to see pc go
this route... when IMO it should stay as a fundamental principle.... a basic
foundation which every woman and her dog (is that ok Janet ? :-)) can use to
provide their needs....fine if one can afford a designer and wants or needs
one... thats OK... but if one can't, they shouldn't be made to feel that
they can't create their own designs
> I believe that it is up to the desinger to decide at what point the
> client has taken on board enough - bearing in mind that even if they don't
> end up with a fully estalbished Pc design what they have implemented will
in
> theory be better than nothing.
I agree wholeheartedly 'cept about the theory bit :-)... any bit of pc is
better than none..
If they see one aspect working efficiently on pc principles against an
inefficient non pc part of their property... that's gonna make em want more
:-)
> I don't mind being confused it when I'm lucid that I get worried!
That's why I don't worry .... I'm never lucid................:-)
see ya
Pete
Peter Wibberley
news:200006061...@zetnet.co.uk...
> The message <xBZ_4.9786$N4.3...@ozemail.com.au>
snip
> That is the pattern of development in the wide and controversial
> field of complementary therapies as successive waves come in from the
> public perception of loony fringe, to widespread acceptance.Clients
> selecting a commercial service soon compare variations of skill and
> want a recognisable standard. Practitioners trying to make a living,
> tried to hammer out some kind of workable national
> accreditation.Where "alternative" meets "commercial approval",
Up to this point I'm following you ......
> some
> imposed criteria of sheep and goats will inevitably follow.
There you go .... you've lost me :-)
Did you mean that "the pc design standard" if decided upon..... would say
something to the effect that ..."a pc design should include sheep, goats
etc" ???
I was thinking more along the lines of a minimum standard of service... ie:
making sure the client fully understands the system and it conforms to their
needs ... rather than it actually stating what has to be incorporated into a
system
>That is
> often a particularly unwelcome issue to the very kind of people whose
> nature draws them away from "establishment" structures of commercial
> organisation and towards a very personal perception of their
> involvement in the life forces of the planet.PC designers may well
> find that conundrum self defeating in the end.
I agree .... I do think if someone pays out hard earned dosh for a service,
they have a right
to expect a certain standard of workmanship... but pc IS so very
personal..... I'm just glad I don't have to be the one who decides what (if
any) the requirements of a good designer and/or design has to be .....
see ya
Pete
John Neale Baraclough
from "Peter Wibberley" <pe...@twpo.com.> contains these words:
I wroteWhere "alternative" meets "commercial approval",
> Up to this point I'm following you ......
> > some
> > imposed criteria of sheep and goats will inevitably follow.
> There you go .... you've lost me :-)
> Did you mean that "the pc design standard" if decided upon..... would say
> something to the effect that ..."a pc design should include sheep, goats
> etc" ???
Oh. **PETE**!! I meant, (as in figure of speech, dividing sheep
from goats, as in, that will sort out the men from the boys);
accreditation causes divisions between those who meet the agreed
standard, and those who don't.
> >That is
> > often a particularly unwelcome issue to the very kind of people whose
> > nature draws them away from "establishment" structures of commercial
> > organisation and towards a very personal perception of their
> > involvement in the life forces of the planet.PC designers may well
> > find that conundrum self defeating in the end.
> I agree .... I do think if someone pays out hard earned dosh for a service,
> they have a right
> to expect a certain standard of workmanship... but pc IS so very
> personal..... I'm just glad I don't have to be the one who decides what (if
> any) the requirements of a good designer and/or design has to be .....
We both agree, then. Phew.
One woman and her dog.
Reedbed
Myk Rushton <permac...@wave.co.nz> wrote >
> > I always think when "things" are marketed ..it pigeon holes them...
> > marketing by it's very nature seeks to identify "a market" ...ie 20 - 30
> > year old married, suburban .... you get the picture
>
> I think that the picture described is a definition of classic product
> providers with a product that is only really applicable to strata of the
> population? I beleive that permaculture is applicable to all - peoplecare.
I agree with both of you. pc shouldn't be marketed in the way that yer
average consumer goods are - where, in the end, the goods themselves are
less important than the brand. But - the strength of 'marketing' is that it
succeeds in identifying a target market for a product, and then expends it's
limited budget on reaching this market - rather than spreading the message
too thin and seeing the message lost in the cacophony of competing
information.
I don't think pc can be marketed (and, let's face it, by whom and for whom?)
at specific 'groups' - just look at the demographic of this newsgroup to see
how varied ordinary average pc'ers are.
But one way in which I think the whole concept could be furthered is by
promoting permaculture to the type of people who are already in the business
of advising on the issues. As an example, here in Ireland we have a whole
industry of consultants, facilitators and advisors who help farmers to plan
their land use (often this is a case of advising them how best to farm the
many grants available, but that's another issue). Ute is involved in this
type of work, and I wonder if these people were made more aware of
permaculture, some of them would get behind it. I know from talking to lots
of ordinary mainstream people about reed beds that people are willing to
give new ideas a try.
Farming isn't the only issue.
I often think that one of the limiting factors of pc is the idea/impression
that it only relates to individual families and micro-communities eking a
living from the land. But the subject covers many more issues (economics,
forestry, local enterprise, all the many services carried out by local
authorities (waste management, roads, water, housing...) that can only
really be tackled at a higher level than the domestic level we're all at.
And I know that some local authorities in the UK have given pc designers a
chance, so I'm not saying this isn't happening - just that maybe it could be
done more.
The Local Agenda 21 project could have been doing all this (although a cynic
might see LA21 as a modern-day Domesday Book for the multinational
imperialists :-), but hasn't had an impact.
At the end of the day, we have to agree that the only way this will happen
is if the person promoting it is benefitting - market forces etc etc (and to
me this is preferable than evangelising pc). So the designers get the
benefit by working on a bigger canvas. And so they have to act
professionally and work to similar standards as the competition. That means
using computers, publishing brochures and getting involved in all the
bullshit that we all want to escape. Tough - until _they_ beat a path to
_our_ door, we can expect no more.
>
> In my picture I wouldn't be hiring a Pc design service, I would be hiring
a
> permaculturalist - somebody who basis their lifestyle on the
implementation
> of permaculture ethics and principles. That permaculturalist may not
design
> systems, they may be a decorator or an osteopath, whatever. Their common
> factor would be that their livlihood and their lifestyle both reflected
> permaculture. Because this person had identified themselves or advertised
> themselves as having permaculture training I could rely on them to provide
> me with permaculture solution to my perceived problem. Where is the
> decorator who only uses environmentally friendly paints and products,
> without being asked, of the type I would seek if I were to do the job.
Where
> is the osteopath who will not look surprised if I offer to part pay for a
> treatment in the currency of the local LETS scheme etc... There are as
many
> opportunities to use permaculture than just design per se. Obviously these
> meanderings are eutopian but it is the picture/vision that some eco
villages
> have.
Not Utopian at all - we had a LETS system here, which petered out because
the discrepancies between real and 'funny' money were too great, and,
frankly, because a lot of the participants were taking out more than they
put in - but it worked well for a couple of years, and probably failed
because of it's success - too many members in too large an area, so it
became impersonal. But recently there are quite a few of us who have set up
businesses and are operating mostly in the mainstream, but with a distinct
pc/green flavour. We do have a painter/decorator who uses eco-friendly
paint, we can get take-away curries for barter, there's our friends' organic
bakery, organic veg growers, ourselves doing reed beds and green building...
by working in the mainstream economy, we all bring in real money which finds
it's way throughout the local economy where it has more value.
>
> > >It is anticipated that the design brief sheets will
> > > act as a unique reference for the site and empower the clients to take
> > > control of the design at a point where they feel comfortable - it has
> been
> > > suggested that by doing this I will be doing myself out of a job
> >
> > I don't think you'd be doing yourself out of a job... I think a
succesful
> > design would increase pc's (and your) image to a point where more work
> would
> > follow...and the satisfied client would be much more likely to employ
you
> > again...and have only good things to say about pc and pc designers.
We employ a bloke to go out and survey sites and talk to prospective reed
bed clients. He's under orders not to sell them a reed bed if they don't
need one, and so he doesn't. But those people are often so happy to be dealt
with honestly and with integrity that they pass the word around, and we end
up with more work. Goodwill does come back, and if you do a good job, you'll
never be short of work Myk. Trust me :-)
>
> Permaculture being elitist is something the permaculture association
> recognised several years ago with regards to their two teired membership
> structure, one for the public the other for designers.
Could you expand on that , Myk - it sounds elitist to me - am I missing the
point ?
Mark
hthomas
Myk Rushton <permac...@wave.co.nz> wrote >
> I understand your situation. As for organisations/corporations like
> greenpeace that many environmentalists/eco
> warriors/sympathisers/supportors/vegetarian etc support, I'm concerned
they
> have begun to emulate those they originally opposed and that I have done
> enough supporting of things at a national/global level and now prefer to
act
> locally and change opions and actions rather than multinational government
> policy.
The older I get, the more I realise that I can only ever hope to have ANY
effect on the ideas of people I meet personally. I gave up on campaigning,
signing petitions (still not sure about voting) long ago. But I do feel that
we occasionally plant the seed of an idea in people we meet, and simply by
supporting people who are trying something different, we're slowly having
that global effect. Those dots ARE getting joined up on the map, however
slowly and imperceptibly.
>
> I'll pass your enquiry back to Andy Goldring at the Permaculture
Association
> GB office and see if he'll write a reply to your question rather than give
> you my understanding of it. (I beleive that all online Pc support
> organisations should monitoring this newsgroup and be ready to issue rapid
> replies to such questions to prevent the blind leading the blind and show
a
> presents every now and again to increase their exposure. It would also
give
> them an opportunity to gauge public opinion and requirements).
I agree 100%. We may stretch the definition of 'on-topic' occasionally, but
this thread alone proves we can have a sensible discussion when someone
starts it :-) I'd love to see loads more 'official' pc types like you and
Toby here.
Teaching can
> appear to be a bit like multilevel marketing where the hidden product for
> sale is the course curriculum it self rather than the philosophy (if there
> is one yet?) of permaculture and its application to lifestyle and
> sustainability and what it's final goal is (does Pc have a goal?)
I don't think it's the pc knowledge that's the issue - it's the fact that I
could do a course and learn a limited amount about pc, then go away with a
certificate and teach others... I'm sure there are loads of really good
teachers who have come through this route (eg. some friends did the full
design course with Patrick Whitefield, and were really complimentary about
him). But I've also heard from people who attended courses and were equally
UNhappy about the knowledge and professionalism of the tutor (of course they
don't get a name-check :-)
>
> I don't want to be part of a commitee either but I do believe that we
should
> support the organisatios which represent us and our chosen
> disipline/lifestyle in all it's facets at a national level.
But represent to whom ? To what ends ? Could pc not set an example and do
away completely with this kind of thinking ? Why have a level of
'representation' wasting time and energy to meet, when anyone interested
could represent him/herself if these kind of discussions took place using
the net ? Could be real-time, chat-style, or an on-going discussion as we're
having now ?
We always talk of 'democracy', and assume that our style of nominating
people to represent us is somehow true to the Athenian style of democracy.
But in Athens, all citizens came along to discuss and vote - not their reps.
The technology allows us to try this.
> I was just thinking
> > earlier how great it would be if there were, say, a kind of on-line
> version
> > of the PC Design Manual, with live links to references and demonstration
> > projects, completely searchable, with forums, workshops etc. If
> > Permaculture was presented as a living, evolving worldwide project in
> which
> > we all felt we played a minor practical role...
> What a great vision but how would we go about implementing such a huge
task?
Where there's a will...
>
> I would imagine so but discussions on the permaculture mailing list have
> shown that some people still feel that the internet and computers in
general
> are usustainable and environmentally damaging and should not be advocated
as
> part of a sustainable solution.
I would say the same about shiny magazines, books, the fuel used to get to
attending courses...
If these people are knitting their own socks and travelling everywhere by
horse and cart (BTDTBTT), then I'll respect their view. Otherwise, f--k 'em.
Permaculture won't benefit from people denying the usefulness of the correct
tools for the job. That's why I won't sit on committees - there's always ONE
person dragging the whole project down, discussing semantics. Shoot 'em.
>I see the internet as a resource we should
> use to its fullest capacity and that like computers they should be used -
> for the present anyway.
The internet has the potential for doing SO much good in the world - or it
can become the new satellite tv - 57 billion channels and nothing on. It's
up to us.
>
> I think that one reason for this is that 'Permaculture' when it was first
> conceived (1978) included under its name many ideas that at the time were
> considered fringe. These days such ideas are mainstream topics/concepts
that
> many people can readily discuss and understand. (i.e. strawbale building,
> organics, recycling, energy efficiency, natural step principle,
> precautionary principle, passive solar, windpower, reedbeds, aquaculture,
> biodiversity and sustainability to name but a few) . Most of the available
> and new literature has a tendency to describe these mainstream topics in
> terms of permaculture making 'Permaculture' seem like a huge subject!
Well, while permaculture can't claim to have invented straw-bale, reed beds
or many other topics, I do think it's a shame that many people working in
these fields aren't aware of permaculture. If anything , pc is the thread
which connects all these varied disciplines, and the only one capable of
presenting such a diverse range of subjects in a cohesive 'masterplan'.
>
> Something else to consider is that although many of the original topics
> brought together under the banner of permaculture have been widely
accepted
> by the mainstream and many of its priciples and ideas have been adopted in
> isolation by businesses/organisations etc, Permaculture itself is still a
> grass roots movement at many levels.
Maybe a limiting factor is that many of it's proponents want it to remain
just that - if it loses it's 'alternative' tag and actually does something
useful in the mainstream, a lot of these people will find something else to
follow. Personally, I wouldn't miss them - these are in the same category,
for me, as circle dancers and and a few Feng Shui 'experts' of my
acquaintance :-)
Phew, this is turning into a marathon thread - I've got blisters on my
typing fingers (both of them) :-)
Mark
hthomas
Lawrence F. London, Jr. <lflo...@mindspring.com> wrote >
> What? Alt.permaculture crowded and noisy? Never happen :-)
> If its PC information, opinion, news, etc etc, Len, Malcolm, Janet
> that one seeks why have to subscribe to a multiplicity of forums
> to gain access to those resources. PC info is PC info; no problem with
> NC specific info is posted in the same place as NZ PC info. We all
> want to konw what is going on everywhere else. One can learn much more
> this way and it is a way to globally unite much more effectively. Eh?
I agree with Lawrence - at least for now while there's still a relatively
small number of very widespread posters. If the ng grew too big, then
natural subdivisions would grow organically. (Wouldn't it be great to have
to start up a alt.pc.ireland group ? But I'd still need to monitor Oz, NZ,
US, UK... :-) ) I'd love to see more pc people posting here (when a pc
thread starts, we can behave ourselves :-), initially to get a sense of
worldwide support and to learn about other places. I do think that there's a
need for one central, global pc forum, and it might aswell be this one.
We all take for granted how Usenet works - but we have news filtering etc,
and maybe news software will be developed where it's possible to subscribe
to a large busy group, but choose more easily the subjects, locations etc
that we're interested in. Maybe there's an opportunity for someone to do
that through a website, rather than Usenet. Maybe when bandwidth issues are
resolved, someone will start a pc net-radio station broadcasting 24 hr
pumping music, pc discussion and concurrent text-based pc notice-board ? :-)
There are no bounds to what software can do here.
I'd rather have a choice from a large mass of posts than just a dribble of
posts each day.
>
> >because we could put inplace a more identifiable support structure,
> >fairshare because every body gets to discuss topics in an area they feel
> >comfortable in and earthcare by providing unique bioregional contact poin
ts
> >where more information about a specific continent/area/bioregion etc can
be
> >found discussed. I must confess to being all for multileveled newsgroup
> >hierarchy, having newsgroups such as alt.permaculture.newbie, where those
of
> >us who are more experienced could monitor and point enquirers in the
right
> >direction, or alt.pemaculture.graduates for Pc course graduates to
discuss
> >their graduation pathway, or alt.permaculture.assistance for specific
> >requests, or alt.permaculture.chat for you know what, I could go one but
I
> >won't :-).
One newsgroup can provide all those yields ;-)
Specialism is one of the reasons the mainstream world is so crap.
Mark
Reedbed
AndreaMc <andr...@NOSPAMone.net.au> wrote > >
> Hi Mark and All,
>
> Your post reminded me that there was an article by Simon Fell in regards
to
> pc and the www in (the latest?) PIJ. He also feels that this is the way
to
> go and his proposed outline for a site was something between what you've
> described here and the Nat. Living site with on-line forums, classes
etc...
> His site is currently under construction and he is going to let me know
when
> he's got it up and running, when he does I'll post the URL if any one's
> interested.
Hi Andrea -
Yes, I'd be interested in the URL. Simon sounds like a great bloke - what a
good idea :-)
Mark
Myk Rushton
Peter wrote along with many other interesting things which Myk has snip
liberally :-)
> I think we can (and should) promote it ... but because it's a "whole
> concept" instead of a specific product...I think it does pc an injustice
if
> we market it rather than promote it ....
As Claude Genest said on the permaculture list 'In other words, how do we
"give it away" and "sell" it at the same time?'
I have no answers as yet which I can formulate but I am sure it is possible.
> I always think when "things" are marketed ..it pigeon holes them...
> marketing by it's very nature seeks to identify "a market" ...ie 20 - 30
> year old married, suburban .... you get the picture
I think that the picture described is a definition of classic product
providers with a product that is only really applicable to strata of the
population? I beleive that permaculture is applicable to all - peoplecare.
> I don't think designing is the only service which falls into that
> catagory... employing Mark to build me a reedbed would be an example of a
> professional service that I may have to have..ie if local
> bylaws/conditions dictated ...... but pc design services (for me) falls
> under the catagory of "something I'd like to have enough money for but
> probably wouldn't buy even if I did".....
In my picture I wouldn't be hiring a Pc design service, I would be hiring a
permaculturalist - somebody who basis their lifestyle on the implementation
of permaculture ethics and principles. That permaculturalist may not design
systems, they may be a decorator or an osteopath, whatever. Their common
factor would be that their livlihood and their lifestyle both reflected
permaculture. Because this person had identified themselves or advertised
themselves as having permaculture training I could rely on them to provide
me with permaculture solution to my perceived problem. Where is the
decorator who only uses environmentally friendly paints and products,
without being asked, of the type I would seek if I were to do the job. Where
is the osteopath who will not look surprised if I offer to part pay for a
treatment in the currency of the local LETS scheme etc... There are as many
opportunities to use permaculture than just design per se. Obviously these
meanderings are eutopian but it is the picture/vision that some eco villages
have.
> * 'Hypothetical' .....I have ooodles of money and I decide that
permaculture
> is in fashion, and to show my "well to do" friends that I'm trendy, I ring
> you to design and build me a permaculture garden thingy :-).....you talk
to
> me and discover that I have absolutely no real idea what pc
is...........but
> I still want something permie...... so you design and build me a system
> which you believe I can comfortably manage.... and because you've done
your
> job properly....chances are I WILL manage it and have a positive opinion
of
> pc..........if on the other hand I ended
> up with a system which meant I couldn't keep the heated tyre covers on my
> porsche at night cos the solar setup wouldn't handle it ........ I might
> have a dim view of this pc thingy and tell everyone that it's just a load
of
> old....well you get the picture :-) *
Hypothetically I am not against landscape designing for visual effect using
sustainable materials, low maintenance/suitable plants for
decoration/biodiversity/habitat creation and alternative powered water
features etc what would be permacultural about the design would be the
application of permaculture ethics and priciples. I would also offer a
maintainence contract for management of the site which I would refer to one
of my landscape management friends - who was preferably also a
permaculturalist.
Alternatively I'd pass you across directly to the landscape designer who was
also be a permaculturalist. They would do a permaculture design but like me
would use the ethics and priciples of design in the selection of
materials/plants/equipment. Either way you get a garden and permaculture
ethics and priciples have been applied in away that suits your needs (to be
trendy)
.
> And that's what CAN be marketed... the professional service given by
> designers to their clients.... the designers ability to correctly assess
> the needs of the client, and the "output" of the pc system.... that's why
I
> think designers are needed and have a great responsibility in their
> promotion of permaculture.
Yep, my point exactly. I believe that part of my job will be to decide
whether a proposed client has it in them by dint of available time/finances
and commitment before commiting myself to a relationship.
> >It is anticipated that the design brief sheets will
> > act as a unique reference for the site and empower the clients to take
> > control of the design at a point where they feel comfortable - it has
been
> > suggested that by doing this I will be doing myself out of a job
>
> I don't think you'd be doing yourself out of a job... I think a succesful
> design would increase pc's (and your) image to a point where more work
would
> follow...and the satisfied client would be much more likely to employ you
> again...and have only good things to say about pc and pc designers.
Thats the idea :-)
The same day I wrote the origin of this thread a mail came through from Dan
Hemenway of Yankee Permaculture Publications in the States via the
PermacultureNZ list. "One of the "inventions" of permaculture is the
Standard Design. This is a small paper treating a particular subject.
Generally a standard design is used as an appendix to a full (and thoroughly
custimized, site-spefic) permaculture design"
Which is exactly how I envisaged my design bried sheets. :-)
> > like you and many others say, people can't afford a designer then the
> > quicker they are empowered the less money they will have to pay on
design
> > work)
>
> Good point Myk....I'm just afraid that pc will be seen as "something you
> need a professional to design for you otherwise it's no good" .... we
still
> need to keep pc "user friendly" ... otherwise it is in danger of becoming
> elitist:....
But what if you have done your design course and need extra assistance and
guidance or a mentor or and expert? would you then spend some money? Most of
us on this list are practical people which makes us naturally independent
and resourceful - many people aren't like that.
Permaculture being elitist is something the permaculture association
recognised several years ago with regards to their two teired membership
structure, one for the public the other for designers.
> > I believe that it is up to the desinger to decide at what point the
> > client has taken on board enough - bearing in mind that even if they
don't
> > end up with a fully estalbished Pc design what they have implemented
will
> in
> > theory be better than nothing.
> I agree wholeheartedly 'cept about the theory bit :-)... any bit of pc is
> better than none..
> If they see one aspect working efficiently on pc principles against an
> inefficient non pc part of their property... that's gonna make em want
more
> :-)
Yep, thats the theory :-)
Myk
--
Peter Wibberley
snips
> Oh. **PETE**!! I meant, (as in figure of speech, dividing sheep
> from goats, as in, that will sort out the men from the boys);
> accreditation causes divisions between those who meet the agreed >
standard, and those who don't.
Aaaah...I got it..... I thought you meant that the design standard should
say "thou shalt have sheep and goats" :-)
I know ....I'm a big disapointment to you..... it's all dem big worms...I
don unnerstand em :-)
see ya
Pete
Peter Wibberley
Hi Myk
snips
> In my picture I wouldn't be hiring a Pc design service, I would be hiring
a
> permaculturalist - somebody who basis their lifestyle on the
implementation
> of permaculture ethics and principles. That permaculturalist may not
design
> systems, they may be a decorator or an osteopath, whatever. Their common
> factor would be that their livlihood and their lifestyle both reflected
> permaculture. Because this person had identified themselves or advertised
> themselves as having permaculture training I could rely on them to provide
> me with permaculture solution to my perceived problem.
Yes I see your point
snip
> Hypothetically I am not against landscape designing for visual effect
using
> sustainable materials, low maintenance/suitable plants for
> decoration/biodiversity/habitat creation and alternative powered water
> features etc what would be permacultural about the design would be the
> application of permaculture ethics and priciples.
As I've said before..... even an area which provides a quiet place for study
or meditation ...... is a solution to a particular problem... I don't feel
guilty about having an un pc lawn because it provides a play area for my
grandkids, and a quiet place for me to read my superman comics :-)....
without getting into woo woo territory :-).... people can find great solace
in just "being" in their garden... the personal benefits might outweigh the
lack of production.
>I would also offer a
> maintainence contract for management of the site which I would refer to
one
> of my landscape management friends - who was preferably also a
> permaculturalist.
But..... shouldn't a good design be self supporting ?...isn't a maintainence
contract very un-pc ?
> Alternatively I'd pass you across directly to the landscape designer who
was
> also be a permaculturalist.
So what would be the difference between a landscape designer who is a
permaculturist... and a permaculture designer ? ... ...and (to be even more
the devils advocate:-)) .... why can't any landscape designer who is
interested in pc...do a better job than someone who has a pc diploma and has
set themselves up as a pc designer ?
> They would do a permaculture design but like me
> would use the ethics and priciples of design in the selection of
> materials/plants/equipment. Either way you get a garden and permaculture
> ethics and priciples have been applied in away that suits your needs (to
be
> trendy)
Thats what I mean.... sounds the same to me... if a landscape designer can
use pc principles.... why do we need pc designers ?
> The same day I wrote the origin of this thread a mail came through from
Dan
> Hemenway of Yankee Permaculture Publications in the States via the
> PermacultureNZ list. "One of the "inventions" of permaculture is the
> Standard Design. This is a small paper treating a particular subject.
> Generally a standard design is used as an appendix to a full (and
thoroughly
> custimized, site-spefic) permaculture design"
>
> Which is exactly how I envisaged my design bried sheets. :-)
I envy you Myk...working in a field which you love..... I find it hard to
fully understand all of the intricacies involved in succesfull, professional
pc design ..or starting a design business.... so some of my comments may
seem a little obtuse.... If I could afford ya...I'd hire ya :-)
snips
> But what if you have done your design course and need extra assistance and
> guidance or a mentor or and expert? would you then spend some money? Most
of
> us on this list are practical people which makes us naturally independent
> and resourceful - many people aren't like that.
Yes... I agree...absolutely nothing wrong in "furthuring ya edjumikation"
and you're right about unresourceful people.... it's these types ..I
think,,, who would benefit most from employing a designer.... but in the
long run... is the ready made permaculture setup, run by someone who doesn't
know what to do when things don't go by the book.........good for pc ?...
are we going to see a future generation who remark..."my pc setup isn't
working properly...call the pc man out darling"...... will pc become another
chattel ?... just another possesion?
> Permaculture being elitist is something the permaculture association
> recognised several years ago with regards to their two teired membership
> structure, one for the public the other for designers.
Do you mean they really want to have a class system within pc ?
can you explain the membership structure a little....for us second class
permies :-)
see ya
Pete
Toby Hemenway
they have always withered--burnout and lack of usefulness (figuring out what
they are useful for has been a problem). Even some very good regional orgs,
like Permaculture Drylands Institute, have followed the same path into
semi-dormancy. AFAIK the Eastern Permaculture Teachers Association isn't
very active, too (could be wrong; it's far away from me). This phenomenon of
withering puzzles me (any guesses, anyone?), as so many similar
organizations are so well supported in other fields. But again, Pc isn't a
field, its a connection among fields.
And on another subject, Myk Rushton wrote:
> some people still feel that the internet and computers in general
> are usustainable and environmentally damaging and should not be advocated as
> part of a sustainable solution. I see the internet as a resource we should
> use to its fullest capacity
It staggers me that people can't abide the net for those reasons. Let's get
rid of cars, airplanes, wood houses, mines, and all the rest of the damaging
technologies first, but to condemn such a high signal-to-noise, empowering,
transformative device as the computer seems kind of knee-jerk to me. Sure,
they are creating dislocations, but the creation of both local and global
community that they are fostering seems worth it. Hell, because of the web,
seeing that .nz and .uk and others so often, I'm beginning to think other
countries are almost as good as mine; makes me not want to bomb them.
Toby
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
<heme...@jeffnet.org> wrote:
> National Pc organizations have been tried a couple of times in the US an
>they have always withered--burnout and lack of usefulness (figuring out what
>they are useful for has been a problem). Even some very good regional orgs,
>like Permaculture Drylands Institute, have followed the same path into
>semi-dormancy. AFAIK the Eastern Permaculture Teachers Association isn't
>very active, too (could be wrong; it's far away from me). This phenomenon of
>withering puzzles me (any guesses, anyone?), as so many similar
>organizations are so well supported in other fields. But again, Pc isn't a
>field, its a connection among fields.
Scott Pittman's Permaculture Institute USA is going strong and has
a bright future. It is the organization that maintains
and enforces the permaculture accreditation standards as defined by
Mollison and the copyright on those and the name permaculture
(I am sure you know much more about this than I). As I was in a handy
position to do so I managed to wrest permaculture.org away from a
friend for it to be given to the PI who will be the registered owner
of it soon. I am hoping they will put a PI website online, hosted by
MetaLab as www.permaculture.org in the near future.
dannyboy
<permac...@wave.co.nz> wrote:
I thought Americans only bomb/ed struggling
countries or ones they no longer
>had a use for? :-)
>
Don't go there, friend. This is a PC NG, not a
slanderland.
rev. dan...
dannyboy
<permac...@wave.co.nz> wrote:
>Sorry, no offence intended just a reply to a tongue in cheek threat to bomb
>me :-) it was intended that my reply be taken in the same way, touché
>
>> Don't go there, friend. This is a PC NG, not a
>> slanderland.
>>
>> rev. dan...
>
>Myk-
No offense taken. It's just that everything we say
hereon is world class. EVERYONE reads it. Here, there,
everywhere. We have lurkers in every country where internet
is allowed, and some where it's not. It's nice to be casual
and chat, but everybody's watching, big brother included.
Those of us who are 'fringe', which is what PC seems to
currently be, have a responsibility, (sorry about cursing),
to provide the best example we can hereon, even if we're low
class. I don't know who you 'really' are, what color, what
religion, or you sexual preference. I don't care. I'm here
because I believe in PC. That's it. And if I've ever
offended anyone hereon, or come off like a dumbo, I
sincerely apologize. Sometimes I forget, too.
VR,
rev. dan...
Myk Rushton
Toby Hemenway wrote about associations:
> This phenomenon of
> withering puzzles me (any guesses, anyone?), as so many similar
> organizations are so well supported in other fields. But again, Pc isn't a
> field, its a connection among fields.
I find it ironic that we cannot design/manage/maintain a self sustaining
representative organisation despite our claim that Pc can be applied
anywhere!
Perhaps it is showing us that our designs are faulty or lack some essential
foundational structure/path/element?
Sorry Toby can't resit this one! no personal offence intended :-)
> I'm beginning to think other
> countries are almost as good as mine; makes me not want to bomb them.
I thought Americans only bomb/ed struggling countries or ones they no longer
had a use for? :-)
Design musings:
Shouldn't we be looking for patterns of successful evolution in dis/similar
organisations, isolating their successful procedures/techniques etc and
analysing them, similar to the way we would any element with in a design? I
saw Albert Einstein quoted in the sci.bio.ecolgy group the other week "We
can not solve our problems with the same level of thinking that created
them". Applying this statement to the problem I guess it is no good just
emulating the successful facets. They have to be observed and studied to
find there essetial characteristics/essence(s) and, with application of the
ethics and priciples, a Pc priciple or standard design created that we can
apply to an overall organisational design? (Isn't this what we are supposed
to do for any design? - patterning). Are we failing to observe or choosing
to ignoring successful strategies used by other organisations because of
some kind of elitist 'we know better... because were the only people who
know how to design sustainably!' attitude (similar to the objections about
the use of the net and a something which happens in many day to day
discussions!)
What are the intrinsic factors of successful organisations?
The ability to raise finance?
The marketing of a successful image?
A fashionable logo?
Marketing of a facet of the organisation rather than the whole thing?
Appealing to a large audience/group?
Organic growth? (and die back when required?)
Myk
--
Caveat: I represent myself and speak only my opinion/ideas/thoughts.
PermacultureNZ list for permaculture contact in New Zealand/Aotearoa
Myk Rushton
Toby Hemenway wrote about associations:
> This phenomenon of
> withering puzzles me (any guesses, anyone?), as so many similar
> organizations are so well supported in other fields. But again, Pc isn't a
> field, its a connection among fields.
I find it ironic that we cannot design/manage/maintain a self sustaining
representative organisation despite our claim that Pc can be applied
anywhere!
Perhaps it is showing us that our designs are faulty or lack some essential
foundational structure/path/element?
Sorry Toby can't resist this one! no personal offence intended :-)
> I'm beginning to think other
> countries are almost as good as mine; makes me not want to bomb them.
I thought Americans only bomb/ed struggling countries or ones they no longer
had a use for? :-)
Design musings:
Shouldn't we be looking for patterns of successful evolution in dis/similar
organisations, isolating their successful procedures/techniques etc and
analysing them, similar to the way we would any element with in a design? I
saw Albert Einstein quoted in the sci.bio.ecology group the other week "We
can not solve our problems with the same level of thinking that created
them". Applying this statement to the problem I guess it is no good just
emulating the successful facets. They have to be observed and studied to
find there essential characteristics/essence(s) and, with application of the
ethics and principles, a Pc principle or standard design created that we can
apply to an overall organisational design? (Isn't this what we are supposed
to do for any design? - patterning). Are we failing to observe or choosing
to ignoring successful strategies used by other organisations because of
some kind of elitist 'we know better... because were the only people who
know how to design sustainably!' attitude (similar to the objections about
the use of the net and a something which happens in many day to day
discussions!)
What are the intrinsic factors of successful organisations?
The ability to raise finance?
The marketing of a successful image?
A fashionable logo?
Marketing of a facet of the organisation rather than the whole thing?
Appealing to a large audience/group?
Organic growth? (and die back when required?)
Myk
--
Caveat: I represent myself and speak only my opinions/ideas/thoughts.
Myk Rushton
Peter Wibberley wrote:
> As I've said before..... even an area which provides a quiet place for
study
> or meditation ...... is a solution to a particular problem... I don't feel
> guilty about having an un pc lawn because it provides a play area for my
> grandkids, and a quiet place for me to read my superman comics :-)....
> without getting into woo woo territory :-).... people can find great
solace
> in just "being" in their garden... the personal benefits might outweigh
the
> lack of production.
Exactly. I think that the design manual bias of 12 chapters on earthcare is
partly to blame for the food production leaning of permaculture in this day
and age. There are many permaculturalists who are applying the ethics and
principles in areas of peoplecare and fairshare who are working in isolation
which out a guide. A book similar to the DM is long over due which covers
these two ethics in the same detail.
> So what would be the difference between a landscape designer who is a
> permaculturist... and a permaculture designer ? ... ...and (to be even
more
> the devils advocate:-)) .... why can't any landscape designer who is
> interested in pc...do a better job than someone who has a pc diploma and
has
> set themselves up as a pc designer ?
Who cares providing both implement the ethics and principles, wear their Pc
badge on their sleeve and the end result is the same? :-) I suppose though
that the difference is the level of Pc understanding.
I beleive that graduation to designer is more important to those who walk
with other permaculturalists than marking some level of expertise and
compotence although it should be seen as an idication of quality.
> I envy you Myk...working in a field which you love..... I find it hard to
> fully understand all of the intricacies involved in succesfull,
professional
> pc design ..or starting a design business.... so some of my comments may
> seem a little obtuse.... If I could afford ya...I'd hire ya :-)
Thanks for the vote of confidence which neatly concludes your point, to you
there is no differnce. I have not yet graduated as a Pc designer (neither
have I ever said that I am one). I apply the ethics and principles of
permaculture together with my farming background, Industrial design
training, computer skills, and ecology degree and experience to apply
permaculture in my life.
As for working, I wish. I'm still on my visitors visa which means I can't.
All the work and design discussed by me is caried out almost free of charge.
It is because of the amount of free time I have available that I can spend
so much time researching/studying and developing my skills and applying
them. Part of the conceptual design business plan for my business is to
implement a standard nomenclature of reference now whilst I'm still in the
R*&D phase, which has probably given the impression of professionality -
which it is intended to do :-).
I have followed (and adapted to my circumstances)an action learning pathway
as described in Pc Accademy GB Action Learning Manual which gives good
guidelines for your pathway to accreditation/graduation post permaculture
design course. I can recommend that anyone who has done a design course and
is working towards their accredidation get hold of this manual via the Assoc
office.
> > But what if you have done your design course and need extra assistance
and
> > guidance or a mentor or and expert? would you then spend some money?
Most
> of
> > us on this list are practical people which makes us naturally
independent
> > and resourceful - many people aren't like that.
>
> Yes... I agree...absolutely nothing wrong in "furthuring ya edjumikation"
> and you're right about unresourceful people.... it's these types ..I
> think,,, who would benefit most from employing a designer.... but in the
> long run... is the ready made permaculture setup, run by someone who
doesn't
> know what to do when things don't go by the book.........good for pc ?
I would not design a ready made setup (believing that such a design as you
describe is faulty - the ability of the client to manage a design is
paramount to its success). I intend to design to the maximum of the clients
abilities in incremental steps (rolling permaculture principle). Once a
step falters the design will stop until the next step can be taken with
confidence. If that next step can never be taken it won't, but what has been
implemented will hopefully succeed. Things quite often never go by the book
which is why permaculture is applied to design systems which are robust and
can with stand perturbations.
You neatly highlight the need for an organisational body that ensures a
certain standard of quality of design. :-)
> are we going to see a future generation who remark..."my pc setup isn't
> working properly...call the pc man out darling"...... will pc become
another
> chattel ?... just another possesion?
No because it wouldn't be Permaculture.
> > Permaculture being elitist is something the permaculture association
> > recognised several years ago with regards to their two teired membership
> > structure, one for the public the other for designers.
> Do you mean they really want to have a class system within pc ?
Sorry, I failed to put that correctly: Originally the Pc Assoc 'had' a two
tiered membership structure, this was recognised as perceivable as
elitist/class system and now only have the one membership type, (or maybe
two if you include group membership). So they don't want a class system.
> can you explain the membership structure a little....for us second class
> permies :-)
Your not second class. I've sent a mail to Andy Goldring at the Pc Assoc
office with a request for more information on the Assoc and how things work
asking him to post here or to reply to me and I'll repost.
Watch this space.
Myk
--
Caveat: I represent myself and speak only my opinion/ideas/thoughts.
Wesley Trotman
Ive been busy lately so I have not been active here,
I think Simon and others are trying to reinvent the wheel. I havent seen
Simon contributing to this group and earlier discussions on web sites for Pc
etc. so I wonder if he has even looked at this ng and the many web sites
around based on Pc. Yes we know its a good idea that why we use this ng. But
it will never replace hands on and word of mouth, no more than a paper
magazine will do that.
To some degree, how well you can present your web site and chat rooms
depends upon how big your resource base is or how big your bank balance is
if you pay others. So I wonder if what we end up with is about what we
already have. Not that I dont get a lot out of this set up now.
This leads to, subscriptions to a peak body that can pool resources and set
up something of significance or organise a substatial gathering an
individual alone can not do this. Its about that cooperative action.
The recent Permafest was an example. Corresponding on a ng is good but to
actually experience good eye to eye ball contact IMHO is much much better
and has a bigger impact and lasting reward. We are social animals and need
close contact with others to keep our focus on what is important. Permafest
would not have been possible without a membership of Permacultre Association
of South Australia (PASA).
How many groups do we need?
At some point a group can get too big and participation becomes difficult so
at this point it shaould like a living cell, split. More local groups have
an advantage of being able to be reinforced by personal contact. A non
interactive resources like a data base or a magazine or a knowledgeable
researched paper does not have to be altered or up dated other than adding
to it. But there is a place for comment and discussion about those
resources, this where ngs and chat rooms have their place.
Im rambling on here but its a a topic which needs some discussion and
perhaps some resolution.
Wes.
AndreaMc <andr...@NOSPAMone.net.au> wrote in message
news:393c...@pink.one.net.au...
>
> Reedbed <ree...@gofree.indigo.ie> wrote in message
> news:czW_4.1180$v4....@news.indigo.ie...
> >
> <snip>
> >
> > However, one point that came loud and clear out of your post was the
issue
> > of communication. IMHO, the internet seems the natural medium for
> > communicating and promoting permaculture - at all levels. I'm sure that
> far
> > far more could be done via the net - but this doesn't generate revenue
in
> > the way that publishing books and running courses does. I was just
> thinking
> > earlier how great it would be if there were, say, a kind of on-line
> version
> > of the PC Design Manual, with live links to references and demonstration
> > projects, completely searchable, with forums, workshops etc. If
> > Permaculture was presented as a living, evolving worldwide project in
> which
> > we all felt we played a minor practical role, as opposed to what could
be
> > seen as the 'PC Bible' which communicates it's commandments down through
> > loyal lieutenants - I think people might become more involved. (That's
not
> a
> > criticism, more a clumsy description to illustrate a difference of
> > approach).
> > It must be more cost-effective to set up a server and host input from
> around
> > the world than to run many little publishing operations in individual
> > countries. It needs to be organised and present a coherent, attractive
> > public face. And it would need to be funded. But this is the only
option,
> > IMHO, for the future.
> <snip>
> > Mark
> >
> Hi Mark and All,
>
> Your post reminded me that there was an article by Simon Fell in regards
to
> pc and the www in (the latest?) PIJ. He also feels that this is the way
to
> go and his proposed outline for a site was something between what you've
> described here and the Nat. Living site with on-line forums, classes
etc...
> His site is currently under construction and he is going to let me know
when
> he's got it up and running, when he does I'll post the URL if any one's
> interested.
>
>
>
> Andrea
>
>
>
>
Wesley Trotman
I believe there are some difficulties in the Pc direction ie keeping
momemtum going.
If something ceases to grow it may fall over, like a bicycle moving along,
how do this while living in a fossil fuelled powered world and trying to
replace it with a people powered situation. Our society has become used to a
money ( fossil fuel) presentations.
The likely changes in Pc principles are only likely to be small sso there is
no source of dynamicism there only at the level of hands on , either
personal or group. IMHO the key is , get out and do it.
Pc is copyright so the use of the word can be with held from those who
misuse it.
Wes.
> It's about 8 years since we first became aware of pc. I know we're in a
bit
> of an environmental backwater here, but I do feel that permaculture hasn't
> moved forward much since we left the UK. There are interesting projects
> happening there - Sustrans, the Earth Centre, the National Forest etc etc,
> which I'm sure have been affected and maybe inspired by pc-thinking, but I
> bet public awareness of permaculture hasn't increased in that time. I know
> it's much harder to promote positive, practical low-key projects, where
> there's no product to market, and not even an identifiable eco-issue
around
> which to hang a protest or a campaign. But 'official' permaculture has to
do
> a better job of promoting itself, at least over here.
>
> Just a few thoughts as a relative outsider...
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
Wesley Trotman
Peter Wibberley <mailto:pe...@twpo.com> wrote in >
> snippings
>
snip
> Thats why I do think properly accredited
> designers are very much needed... they are a great way of getting the pc
> message across .....they also need a representative body to ensure that
not
> just anyone can charge money for what could be a "shonky" design.....that
> would give pc a very bad name.. because folks would think it's
permaculture
> which doesn't work ... instead of the poor design.
Very true Pete,
We got taken by signing up for a terrific PDC which turned out to be a
fizzer, a waste of time and money.
But if we had taken the time first to check out the guys credentials warning
bells would have quickly been heard.
>
> * 'Hypothetical' .....I have ooodles of money and I decide that
permaculture
> is in fashion, and to show my "well to do" friends that I'm trendy, I ring
> you to design and build me a permaculture garden thingy :-).....you talk
to
> me and discover that I have absolutely no real idea what pc
is...........but
> I still want something permie...... so you design and build me a system
> which you believe I can comfortably manage.... and because you've done
your
> job properly....chances are I WILL manage it and have a positive opinion
of
> pc..........if on the other
snip
One problem about doing your own design , is time!
If you plant the wrong tree or in the wrong place or put a structure in a
bad position one can waste years not counting energy etc. So if you dont
have the experience, then engage a designer even if you work together. It is
wooooooorth it in the long run.
.... that's why I
> think designers are needed and have a great responsibility in their
> promotion of permaculture.
Get recommendations before engageing them.
Also designs are very climate, soil and geographically dependent so the
designer must have a wide experience especilly of you location.
>
>
> snippings galore
>
> > > I believe that it is up to the desinger to decide at what point the
> > client has taken on board enough - bearing in mind that even if they
don't
> > end up with a fully estalbished Pc design what they have implemented
will
> in
> > theory be better than nothing.
Yep, but Pete (below) has a point.
>
> I agree wholeheartedly 'cept about the theory bit :-)... any bit of pc is
> better than none..
Wes.
Myk Rushton
Reedbed wrote:
> I don't think pc can be marketed (and, let's face it, by whom and for
whom?)
> at specific 'groups' - just look at the demographic of this newsgroup to
see
> how varied ordinary average pc'ers are.
I beleive Pc can be marketed - by us for those like us. I've got no idea how
though!
> But one way in which I think the whole concept could be furthered is by
> promoting permaculture to the type of people who are already in the
business
> of advising on the issues. As an example, here in Ireland we have a whole
> industry of consultants, facilitators and advisors who help farmers to
plan
> their land use (often this is a case of advising them how best to farm the
> many grants available, but that's another issue). Ute is involved in this
> type of work, and I wonder if these people were made more aware of
> permaculture, some of them would get behind it.
Another good avenue to investigate.
> I know from talking to lots
> of ordinary mainstream people about reed beds that people are willing to
> give new ideas a try.
Me too. Thats why it is confusing that representative bodies and
publications 'wither' at the present time.
> Farming isn't the only issue.
> I often think that one of the limiting factors of pc is the
idea/impression
> that it only relates to individual families and micro-communities eking a
> living from the land. But the subject covers many more issues (economics,
> forestry, local enterprise, all the many services carried out by local
> authorities (waste management, roads, water, housing...) that can only
> really be tackled at a higher level than the domestic level we're all at.
Anywhere the ethics and principles can be applied?
> The Local Agenda 21 project could have been doing all this (although a
cynic
> might see LA21 as a modern-day Domesday Book for the multinational
> imperialists :-), but hasn't had an impact.
In London I was very much aware of LA21, both a community level and council.
but over here I very rarely see/hear it mentioned.
>> At the end of the day, we have to agree that the only way this will
happen
> is if the person promoting it is benefitting - market forces etc etc (and
to
> me this is preferable than evangelising pc).
Yep, me too
> So the designers get the
> benefit by working on a bigger canvas. And so they have to act
> professionally and work to similar standards as the competition. That
means
> using computers, publishing brochures and getting involved in all the
> bullshit that we all want to escape. Tough - until _they_ beat a path to
> _our_ door, we can expect no more.
Yep
> Not Utopian at all - we had a LETS system here, which petered out because
> the discrepancies between real and 'funny' money were too great, and,
> frankly, because a lot of the participants were taking out more than they
> put in - but it worked well for a couple of years, and probably failed
> because of it's success - too many members in too large an area, so it
> became impersonal. But recently there are quite a few of us who have set
up
> businesses and are operating mostly in the mainstream, but with a distinct
> pc/green flavour. We do have a painter/decorator who uses eco-friendly
> paint, we can get take-away curries for barter, there's our friends'
organic
> bakery, organic veg growers, ourselves doing reed beds and green
building...
> by working in the mainstream economy, we all bring in real money which
finds
> it's way throughout the local economy where it has more value.
>
Excellent. Not the demise of the LETS system but the fact that you are
managing to do it without a system. As long as we are part of a main stream
ecconomy, and I beleive we all are, we should not feel guilty about using
its resources, one of which is money. Your system sounds ideal for use in
any environment - small groups of people forming loose coalitions of similar
ideology. All we need to do now is get permaculture in as the base of these
ideologies and were away - huh I wish it were that simple!
> We employ a bloke to go out and survey sites and talk to prospective reed
> bed clients. He's under orders not to sell them a reed bed if they don't
> need one, and so he doesn't. But those people are often so happy to be
dealt
> with honestly and with integrity that they pass the word around, and we
end
> up with more work. Goodwill does come back, and if you do a good job,
you'll
> never be short of work Myk. Trust me :-)
I certainly hope so, I'm banking on it along with other strategies.
How did you go about sourcing a suitable surveyor? I have identified land
surveying as a area where a professioal is required beyond my basic
surveying skills/topographic skills for professional designs. A one off
baseline survey as part of the records/reference material for the design. At
a sustinance level bottles of water or an A frame level are all well and
good for contouring, marking out swales etc, but for professional jobs where
finance is available I'd like to have an accurate guide to work from.
Especially to demonstrate to the client the lay of their land and to use as
a basis for discussion on the macroelements of the land. Theirs also a
company over here that uses a barage ballon to take arial photos - again
depending on cost I'd like to be able to include such photos for before and
after shots both for the client and demonstration purposes.
> Could you expand on that , Myk - it sounds elitist to me - am I missing
the
> point ?
Sorry, I failed to put that correctly: Originally the Pc Assoc 'had' a two
tiered membership structure, this was recognised as perceivable as
elitist/class system and now only have the one membership type, (or maybe
two if you include group membership). So they are not elitist. Again
hopefully Andy Goldring will have some feed back.
Peter Wibberley
news:%6205.12110$N4.4...@ozemail.com.au...
On the subject of pc designers Wes wrote
> Get recommendations before engageing them.
> Also designs are very climate, soil and geographically dependent so the
> designer must have a wide experience especilly of you location.
Hi Wes
Could you imagine a pc designer being experienced in the type of soil and
location which makes up my bit of paradise ? :-)
I wonder if part of the PDC covers working in a salt mine?
see ya
Pete
Toby Hemenway
>
> Scott Pittman's Permaculture Institute USA is going strong and has
> a bright future.
You may know more about this than I. It's one of the cases I'm referring to,
though I perhaps shouldn't be posting this so widely since I mean no insult
to Scott. But I know a fair number of people who've tried to get info about
ceritification, curriculum standards, degrees, etc, from Scott and gotten no
response. I'm not sure if PI is a one-man show and Scott is overwhelmed, or
what. I do hope its future is bright; Scott's good at organizing. My
impression is that he'd do well to share the load a bit, though.
Toby
Toby Hemenway
your pearls of wisdom and wish I could contribute more--heading out to a
weekend pond-building workshop in moments.
Peter Wibberley wrote on 6/8/00 2:02 AM:
> So what would be the difference between a landscape designer who is a
> permaculturist... and a permaculture designer ? ... ...and (to be even more
> the devils advocate:-)) .... why can't any landscape designer who is
> interested in pc...do a better job than someone who has a pc diploma and has
> set themselves up as a pc designer ?
This gets to a paper by Holmgren called "Searching for a Way Forward" in
which he said Pc is not a discipline as such; he'd rather have an architect
schooled in Pc than a permaculturist with a smattering of architecture. Pc
can inform and organize other disciplines, but maybe doesn't
qualify--fortunately--as one itself. I'm basically a biologist and writer
who loves Pc, rather than a Pc'ist who does writing. This may be part of why
national and international Pc associations are hard to maintain; most of us
are not full-time Pc people, and we are hard at work on other careers.
Besides teaching Pc (which rarely can pay all the bills) and design (which
is really landscape design with a Pc twist), there are few actual jobs in
permaculture.
Oh, and Myk, no offense taken at the "bombing countries" quip. You were
uncomfortably close to the truth about my oft-bullying gov't. But maybe I
should have been more literal and simply said that I think as more people
get to know more of those who live in other countries via the Web, they will
les tolerate their government waging war on them. I hope.
Fran wrote:
> . . .'out of left field' which is, I think, an American
>expression for coming out of nowhere
yep. baseball talk for a ball that comes from your blind side and the less
hit-to side of the field, I think. Good job; the company I used to work for
had a lot of English scientists who played cricket; try as I might I could
never comprehend any of it.
Reedbed
> How did you go about sourcing a suitable surveyor?
John's not a 'Surveyor' - he's our bloke who surveys, IYSWIM.
As regards 'sourcing' him - he's a friend whom I knew to be conscientious,
honest and intelligent, and with absolutely no knowledge whatsoever about
reed beds, surveying sites etc :-) I'd much rather have someone with those
qualities than take on someone with a CV. It's worked out really well - he
started out labouring for me while I was building a couple of systems, but
he's now doing a lot of the designs (he didn't know anything about CAD but
he does now), and we couldn't wish for a better 'employee' (he takes such
an interest and responsibility that it sometimes feels like he's in
charge:-)
We pay him very well - I've always made it a point to pay people more than
the going rate, and not to treat them like 'hired help'. I wish we could
find few more like him. I think this attitude is important to anyone
setting up a 'green' business - it's not enough to produce eco-friendly
widgets if your workers are treated no better than commodities.
I trained John myself, but he's looking specifically at siting reed beds,
septic tanks,pump
chambers, disposal areas etc etc, and so most of his knowledge is on what
types of reed beds for particular slope, soil types, aspect, planning
restraints.
It's rare that we have to do any intricate surveying of levels, and if we
do, the area in question for a reed bed is small enough to carry out the job
with a water level or spirit level/straight edge/pegs.
If we're dealing through an architect or engineer, often they provide
contours on the site plan, which makes our job a pleasure. But we don't need
contours - a basic cross-section of the site is enough for us, and that's a
lot easier to measure than contours because we're then only dealing in 2
dimensions.
You'd have no problem learning to use a Dumpy level, Myk. I've thought about
getting one, but the problem with them is that it's really a two-person job,
and we can't afford to have 2 people visit sites.
There's probably some clever gizmo using lasers connected to a laptop or
datalogger, that gives 3D contour maps on-screen. If you find a system like
that, I'd be interested to know more.
It's a shame that GPS data is corrupted by the military - if you could get
readings for Lat/Long and altitude at the accuracy attainable, you could
feed this into a laptop (or palmtop, even) and wander around the site taking
random readings - at the scale you're interested in, this would be great.
HTH
Mark
Myk Rushton
me :-) it was intended that my reply be taken in the same way, touché
> Don't go there, friend. This is a PC NG, not a
> slanderland.
>
> rev. dan...
Myk
--
Peter Wibberley
> How did you go about sourcing a suitable surveyor? I have identified land
> surveying as a area where a professioal is required beyond my basic
> surveying skills/topographic skills for professional designs.
Hi Myk
I know this question was directed to Mark but I recently had to engage a
surveyor to give me a level for the base of my shed (council requirement)
He had to transfer a (level2 ??) mark from about half a kilometre
away...and onto my block....the price seems to depend on the distance from a
(suitable) existing mark...some are just boundary marks.... for my $300 I
got a yellow ribbon tied to my wire fence, two texture marks on my shed
frame and a letter outlining the height needed from the base plate on the
bottom of the upright.... they told me (before they came out) that if the
existing survey mark is 1 kilometre away...the cost would be upwards of
$600.....
While they were on my block they did quickly sight out a few other areas
for me though (at no cost)...ie "that mound is 1.4mts above this
level......that goat house is 2.3 mtrs...etc"...which I quickly jotted
down..for future reference
Also once you have a reference point it is so easy to transfer that height
to other locations yourself...I borrowed an old dumpy level from a
friend...but the spirit level method works fine.
see ya
Pete
DDilday239
His site is currently under construction and he is going to let me know when
he's got it up and running, when he does I'll post the URL if any one's
interested.
Andrea >>
We’re interested.
Dennis
Mongolian Horde
>
>I seem to recall at last check (by Myk) there was something less than 150
>readers of this ng, so given the number who post semi regularly, that would mean
>there are a few lurkers out there in cyberland.
>
10 lurkers per poster is the usual estimate.
>
GK