Benefits of Highland Cattle
Hopelessly Midwestern
The Highlands sound interesting...here's some excerpts I've gleaned from the
web.
Comments on the excerpts (or about your own experience and knowledge) are
welcome.
HM
----------
Why Highland Beef is Better
Independent testing laboratories have determined that grass-fed Highland beef is
actually lower in cholesterol than chicken. Since the double coat of the
Highland's long hair acts as an insulator, they do not have a thick layer of fat
like many other beef breeds.
And Highlands have the largest recorded ribeye in the beef industry (19.4cm)
Management & Care
Highlands require a minimum of management and care. They do not require barn
housing and they forage readily where feed is sparse. As browsers and brush
clearers, Highlands are unsurpassed, eating what other cattle pass up.
The Highland's double coat of hair and natural hardiness allows them to
out-winter easier and cheaper than other breeds. Their feed intake does not
increase until -18 degrees F. as compared to 32 degrees F. for most breeds.
Genetic Difference
The Scottish Highlander is the oldest registered European beef cow. There is
record of this breed as far back as the twelfth century. They were grazed
before the Shorthorn was even known. There is archaeological evidence of them
from the sixth century, making them one of the oldest known breeds of cattle in
modern history.
These cattle ranged the wind swept, rain-soaked Highlands of Scotland. Only
the most efficient could subsist on the course and often sparse forage. Only
the most vigorous could resist disease, breed and raise calves. With centuries
of relentless environmental pressure, they are noted for their ability to thrive
where other cattle perish.
Highlands cattle are coming to the attention of other breeders due to their
unique gene pool of natural attributes. Maximum hybrid "kick" - Research has
found that the gains in cross-breeding cattle are proportional to the genetic
diversity of the animals crossed. Highland cattle are genetically very different
from other cattle, thus Highland genes give maximum heterosis effect in
cross-breeding.
Chef's Choice
A recent article from Associated Press touted the headline "Red Meat for the
Elite" stating "at $36 a steak, Highland beef isn't exactly 'chopped liver'".
This is blue-blood beef. A long time favorite with European chefs, this beef is
only sold to an elite few through Harrod's Knightsbridge in London. It is
rapidly gaining in popularity as a favorite among beef connoisseurs in the U.S.
now.
Prestigious white tablecloth restaurants have chosen various Highland cuts as
their top menu selections. In addition to the Metropolitan Opera's Special Menu,
gourmet chef's Greg Lutes at the Checkerberry Inn in Goshen, Indiana said he has
been selling Highland beef for about six months. He sells a 23-ounce Highland
steak for $36, and is considering offering the beef in smaller portions. He
likes the flavor, and he also likes the fact that it's a local product. The
price also sets Highland beef apart. On the traditional markets, a whole carcass
generally sells for less than $1 a pound, Angus sells for about $1.15 and
Highland for about $2. This is based not only on the relative rarity of the
Highland breed, but also because it is raised naturally and is a high-quality
product. The incentives to raise Highland don't come in the volume. "We're
getting more income per acre than if we sold beef commercially," said Roger
Smoker Of Eagle Creek [Highland] Cattle Company in Warsaw, Indiana.
What type of beef does Royalty prefer?
Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth keeps a large herd of Scottish Highland cattle at
Balmoral Castle for her private stock. It is said that this is the only beef
that she allows to grace her tables. In addition to the Queen, British nobility
and multi-billionaires here in the U.S. own Highland Cattle. They know a good
steak when they taste one. Prestigious white tablecloth restaurants have chosen
various Highland cuts as their top menu selections. As a trial, 35 Highland NY
strip steaks made their premier on the Metropolitan Opera's Special Menu, and
were sold out in just 30 minutes!
lflo...@mindspring.com
<yoss...@cyberdude.com> wrote:
>Anybody raising cattle solely fed on pasture? Anybody raising Highlands?
>
>The Highlands sound interesting...here's some excerpts I've gleaned from the
>web.
>
>Comments on the excerpts (or about your own experience and knowledge) are
>welcome.
>HM
>
>----------
>
>Why Highland Beef is Better
I believe I have heard of this breed and that it is significantly
better than many other breeds for a variety of reasons. The
ALBC in Pittsboro NC may have much useful info on the Higland variety.
ALBC = American Livestock Breeds Conservancy; don't know if they have
a website.
LL
L.F.London ICQ#27930345 lflo...@mindspring.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech lon...@ibiblio.org
Fran
> On Fri, 16 Nov 2001 14:40:46 -0500, "Hopelessly Midwestern"
> <yoss...@cyberdude.com> wrote:
>
> >Anybody raising cattle solely fed on pasture?
Yes Hopeless. I raise cattle solely on grass. We run them over 2 farms
about an hours drive apart. We raise yearlings and replacement breeders.
The only time we have fed more than the odd 'training' bale to our cattle
was over one drought winter when there was just not enough pasture to keep
them in good condition. Even then there was nothing scientific about the
feeding regime - throw hay in paddock on regular basis and self service was
the name of the game.
> Anybody raising Highlands?
No. A lot of the regulars here are either vegetarian or vegan. I am the
only one here with an up close and personal knowledge of cattle (well, at
least the only one who has so far admitted to that fact). You have already
heard what Jan Flora and I had to say on Highlands and you didn't like it.
However, if you are really interested the only real way you will learn is to
buy a few and start and either be prepared to sell at a loss or feed heavily
at a cost if things get difficult. I have already mentioned the difficulty
with the horns - this will cost you in handling equipment as it needs to be
either specially made or modified and if you don't have handling equipment
your life will be more difficult than you might like it to be. On your
sized chunk of land you will not be able to have many and that will be a
real limiter to any expansion and the handling equipment will also eat into
any profits, however, unless you have them, you'll never learn about them.
Other breeds do have the benefits of good beef without the probs of
Highlands. All cattle are good companions as far as I'm concerned but if
you want to make money out of cattle then I wouldn't recommend Highlands.
Hopelessly Midwestern
news:9t40oe$8d8s$1...@ID-60053.news.dfncis.de...
> Yes Hopeless. [...] You have already
> heard what Jan Flora and I had to say on
> Highlands and you didn't like it.
What you state is directly contrary to a decade of experience of my neighbor.
> I have already mentioned the difficulty
> with the horns - this will cost you in handling equipment as it needs to be
> either specially made or modified
He buys high quality (higher priced, but less expensive over the long because it
lasts) round bale feeders and headgates - and has absolutely NO problem with
horns. Not "specially made." Not "modified" in any fashion.
The only problem with horns is on woven wire fence. High-tensile electric does
a great job.
I told him about your imagined problems, and he chuckled; he figured your cheap
equipment could possibly be troublesome.
> On your sized chunk of land you will not be able to have many
Are you somehow psychic? (How many acres do I have? Do tell!)
> you want to make money out of cattle then I wouldn't recommend Highlands.
He's selling slaughter steers for $3000 ($5800 Australian) average for grass
finished, and $1800 ($3500 Australian) average for pastured/feed-lot finished
animals on the freezer-beef market.
That's "making money" in anybody's book.
Jan
> sized chunk of land you will not be able to have many
I would love to have some one day, but as we only have 9 acres, I am not
sure how realistic that is.
We have about 4 acres each in flats and hill face. It is quite sheltered,
but has one hill face that has a water spring in it, and is apt to become a
slip risk with too many cattle on it.
Do you think that we could provide a suitable home for maybe 3-4 of these
animals.
Cheers
Jan
Hopelessly Midwestern
news:e8savtgtp709epan0...@4ax.com...
> I believe I have heard of this breed and that it is significantly
> better than many other breeds for a variety of reasons.
One downside is that they are slow to mature -- which means factory farmers
can't make money raising them as a mere commodity.
However, Highland beef sells for a large premium when privately marketed outside
the normal factory farm channels.
Graham Burnett
Hopelessly Midwestern <yoss...@cyberdude.com> wrote in message
news:tvaqcg1...@corp.supernews.com...
> Anybody raising cattle solely fed on pasture?
I believe this is the 'foggage' practice of Arthur Hollins of Fordhall Farm
in Shropshire, England. He has written a book, 'The Farmer, the Plough and
the Devil' which can be obtained from Ecologic Books
http://www.ragmans.co.uk/eco-logic/food.html
This is from the 'Edible Ecosystems- A survey of Permaculture in the UK'
website http://www.edibleecosystems.care4free.net/c4.html
"Arthur Hollins of Fordhall Farm, Shropshire (visit 6) has a more
sustainable livestock system in which a combination of grasses selected to
provide pasture all through the year create 'permanent pasture' (photo F).
The stocking level is such that manure is returned to the soil at a rate at
which it can be absorbed, and no fertilisers are needed. The land is less
vulnerable to degradation because it is not ploughed, not overstocked and is
protected all year round by pasture, and no fodder is needed to be brought
in. The problem of methane emissions from rotting manure is removed because
oxygen is available to it during it's decomposition - unlike when it is
stored in large 'sewage lagoons' or 'manure piles' (Durning and Brough 1991
p19). Any permaculture system should balance its inputs and outputs and
ensure ecosystem health is maintained. It follows therefore that if a system
deserves the description 'permaculture' it will be not involve
overstocking."
Hope this is useful
Graham
www.landandliberty.co.uk
Carmen
Graham Burnett <graham...@blurgyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:N7sJ7.5627
snip
> This is from the 'Edible Ecosystems- A survey of Permaculture in the UK'
> website http://www.edibleecosystems.care4free.net/c4.html
>
This is a good link Graham
I found one particular comment very interesting:-
" The certification regime have taken the word 'Organic' and patented it.
With this word becoming increasingly synonymous with sustainable
agriculture, permaculturists feel compelled, in some cases, to fit the Soil
Association's criteria in order to gain the credibility that certification
offers."
This is an issue that came under discussion last week at a meeting I
attended.
Fairly recently there was an attempt to have the word "organic' pateneted
here, or otherwise restricted so that only certified producers could use the
word and offer protection to both producers and consumers.
That attempt to patent was unsuccessful, the reasoning being that it is an
english word and as such should remain unrestricted.
My question,
has the word "organic" indeed been patented in England?
Regards
Carmen
AM
Hi
"Hopelessly Midwestern" <yoss...@cyberdude.com> wrote in message
news:tvb7256...@corp.supernews.com...
> "Fran" <ma...@mak.com.au> wrote in message
> news:9t40oe$8d8s$1...@ID-60053.news.dfncis.de...
> He buys high quality (higher priced, but less expensive over the long
because it
> lasts) round bale feeders and headgates - and has absolutely NO problem
with
> horns. Not "specially made." Not "modified" in any fashion.
>
> The only problem with horns is on woven wire fence. High-tensile electric
does
> a great job.
>
<snipped snide remarks>
> He's selling slaughter steers for $3000 ($5800 Australian) average for
grass
> finished, and $1800 ($3500 Australian) average for pastured/feed-lot
finished
> animals on the freezer-beef market.
>
> That's "making money" in anybody's book.
>
I'm very curious about this so I have some q's; I don't suppose you know
what the costs involved with raising these cattle are as opposed to
'regular' beef cattle or in contrast? What's the approx finished weight of
one of these beasties? What exactly makes the finished product of this
breed different to regular beef cattle? (so what makes it a saleable product
outside of normal factory farm channels?) How does your neighbour transport
his animals? I would assume it would be harder to transport them because of
the horns, surely cramming them into transport trucks would cause far more
incidences of damage to the animals than say polled breed?
Last question; how much slower are they to mature than a regular beef breed
as that would surely figure into the costs?
Thanks
AM
>
Fran
>
> > sized chunk of land you will not be able to have many
> Fran, can you tell me how many acres you need to support one Highland
beast?
Jan, you are going to be sorry that you asked as it's not as easy as you may
think :-)) Hold your breath and here goes (and I do warn you, you will be
sorry that you asked :-)).
It is one of those 'that depends' type answer, but being a Kiwi you are
probably in a better situation than Hopeless is to find the answers. Find a
sheep farmer and ask him/her what numbers of dry sheep they would run on
your place at the worst (feed wise) time of the year. Then you have to
decide what you actually want to run and what you want to do with the
animals.
Cow stocking rates in Oz are figured on DSEs (dry sheep equivalents) and I
think that NZ is the same. A breeding beef cow (in Australia and probably
also NZ) is rated at around 13 DSE over the period of a whole year (a dairy
cow would be rated higher - maybe 16 or 17??), a yearling steer at about 350
kg gaining .25kg/day would be about 7 DSE (a Highland would weigh less than
that).
Now what that means in both your situation is that if the farmer said to you
that you could run 50 sheep then you can do the sums to find out how many of
that type of animal you can carry - specifically in this scenario, you could
carry a bit over 4 breeders all year (this makes allowances for the fact
that Highlands aren't as big as most other beef breeds).
> I would love to have some one day, but as we only have 9 acres, I am > not
sure how realistic that is.
> We have about 4 acres each in flats and hill face. It is quite sheltered,
> but has one hill face that has a water spring in it, and is apt to become
a
> slip risk with too many cattle on it.
Now good land in Oz would run at about 5-7 sheep to the acre but an old
saying from the UK is "Keep 10 sheep to the acre till you can keep 10 sheep
to the acre".
I know that NZ land is generally better than ours but I'm not sure if it is
as good as the best of British land, however for the purposes of sameness
and decimal convenience we'll use the British mark.
Theoretically and working to the max and relying only on grass feeding , you
could run up to 90 sheep on your place whereas Hopeless, if he has
repastured after his soy beans could theoretically run 400. Now obviously
that doesn't account for any well treed areas, huge garden enclosures,
potential erosion areas, bogs, scalds, quality of pasture etc, etc.
Highland do quite well on low grade land but obviously they will do better
on better land as will all animals
> Do you think that we could provide a suitable home for maybe 3-4 of >
these animals.
Probably, but again a 'depends' response. Talk to your sheep farmer about
your specific conformation but also consider the following before you go any
further:
First of all, what do you ultimately want to do with the cattle? I love
breeders and love the calves but they are the most work. You may just want
to t keep some grass down and have a few tame animals that are good to look
at. so have a thunk and these may help you in that process:
If you are going to be an owner of the cattle yourself, the easiest option
(due to minimal handling - not nil handling, but minimal) would be to run a
few steers and to run them till they die of old age and to then set fire to
the carcases but...... despite the fact that steers are neutered and won't
need the sort of attendance that breeders do they will still need regular
treatment (injections etc) so that involves cost and especially in
equipment. Also you would be surprised at how much damage cattle can do to
themselves in a seemingly very safe paddock. One of our cows took a piece
of hide off her side the size of a bath towel and she was left with a
totally raw side - she got fly blown and was maggot infested but that was
good as it kept the wound clean. She recovered and thankfully had nor probs
but it was just gruesome to see - the only treatment that could have worked
was if there was such athing as a bath towel sized bandaid (can you imagine
it!).
Anyway, we couldn't believe the nature of this injury or figure out how she
may have done it, nor could any of the neighbours or the vet at either our
other farm or here. No-one has ever seen such a thing or heard of such a
thing, but somehow she did it (if we had lions we might have an explanation
but without such prey animals it is still unsolved). So, despite having
good clean and well maintained paddocks/fences etc you will still find that
cattle manage to do something that will need vets and handling whether it is
a steer or not. (The other choice thing they often do is wait till your in
your 'steppin out' clothes and THEN they have their emergency. I want to
know how they know!).
Anyway, first you need to do some thunking, so here is the first
consideration. Is your heart set on Highlands or could you live with a more
conventional breed? Cows and calves or steers? Second consideration, since
they are Highlands, they have big horns so do you want to keep them horned?
Most people do as that is a big part of their appeal, but the horns are a
bloody big problem.
So we get to third consideration: equipment and here your choice of animal
will impact on costs. Any cattle breeder who knows what they are doing
builds or gets the yards built to scientific specs, therefore races will be
2 ft wide - that will accommodate a pregnant cow and a big bull but it is
narrow enough to be a tightish fit and to prevent them turning around
without extreme difficulty (they virtually have to do a somersault and
although our cows are very quiet, we have had one do just that!). Anyway,
that size race is too big for calves and they are a pain to handle in
something this size but it is more expense to build a calf race. Now here
is where Highlands become a problem. A Highland bull or a steer at
maturity will have a 4-5 foot horn span if he's a healthy one and hasn't
been dehorned. Crushes, races, headbales and ramps don't accommodate this
sort of horn span. You either have to have them modified or specially built
to take the Jighland and then they won't suit other breeds so once the
decision is made you'll need to stick with them. (There is a compromise on
safety as a result - both yours and the beasts).
So a smart option would be to run steers that have been dehorned and have
then wander around your place till they die, but you'll still need some
handling equipment. BUT, without the horns the Highland loses a lot of its
"aaaaw, look at that cute cow" factor. (This is quite a selling point and
it is worth considering if you want to make money - marketing always targets
the gullible. I'm sure is why there are always so many odd deformed looking
dogs or fluffy chickens or ducks or ........in toilet paper and ducted
heating ads)
Now, if it's just a hobby then cost and return on investment is often
irrelevant (if you want something enough) but the issue of knowledge levels
isn't irrelevant because it means your own safety. You could, of course,
you get someone else to own them and handle then and just leave them at your
place, but even then they will need equipment.
Anyway, check out cost of equipment but have an Valium first and if you
don't know anything about cattle handling and still decide to go ahead,
volunteer to help a local farmer or enroll in a course till you are
ompletely comfortable around cattle and know what you need and how to use
everything.
But back to equipment, at the least you will need a yard, a race and some
sort of head bale (although a crush is better. Headbales aren't very safe
and they don't do a good job) ALSO unless you plan to not have the cattle
ever leave the place by truck, you will also need some sort of ramp for
loading. (As an indication, a moderate crush here costs about $2500 but
they won't take a wide horn span. A friend's rellie who has Highlands had
to spend an extra $3,000 to get a crush fixed to deal with the bull. I
don't know how familiar you are with normal crushes, but a normal beef breed
can walk straight into it and bung it's head through the head bale section.
A big Horned Hereford has some problems doing that and will have to twist
its head to do it. A Highland steer or bull simply can't do it at all
without contorting himself hence the engineering costs for modification).
Now add to the crush the yard, ramp and race (probably about $3-4000 here
although I think that would be on the lowish side since it is now some time
since we put in our last set of yards) add to that a watering point, add to
that some basic equipment (needles, drench guns etc) add to that vet fees
and vaccines etc.
The cheapest thing about the whole exercise will be the cattle (that is if
you don't fall for the 'have we got a deal for you' types. The real danger
with these (and similar voguish) animals is that those who are first in make
the money and then those who follow have try to con someone to get their
money back. You should be able to get some real bargains since Highlands
have no longer in the first wave and people are doing their dough all over
the place.)
Now, as I said, steers that are left to die on the place will be easiest and
cheapest. You can have them dehorned before you buy them and have them
jumped off a truck when they are delivered (cattle can jump down from a
truck and it won't harm them,just don't do it regularly). This option would
reduce costs a lot as all you'll need then is a yard, and if they were dead
quiet and could be food trianed a cheap head bale.
Now, if you go for cows, you'll need the lot (or access to the lot) as I
mentioned earlier (except for the modified head bale if you only have cows.
You wouldn't have any males on only 9 acre as you would rely on AI - a bull
takes up too much space and since he wouldn't have enough cows to keep him
busy he'd only get into too much mischief).
You need access to the lot or to have the lot as cows need more attention
and you will need to be able to load offspring that you need to get off the
place. Now, next consideration: where are you going to get rid of those
offspring? So some options:
The biggest market for Highlands is to other admirers but you need to be
good at the sales pitch to do that and to have access to a pool of cash rich
people who aren't familiar with cattle (a past career in used car sales
would probably be handy!).
Another option you could try is the exclusive beef market but then, given
that NZ has such a reputation for prime beef, game meats, other meats and
knowledgeable meat consumers who are used to what (in comparison) is very
cheap and extremely high quality meat you'll only get a few who would be
silly enough to fall for that. Even if you can manage to find a bunch of
repeat buyers, the slaughter costs will no doubt price you out of that.
So, next to consider is either home or contract abbattoir slaughter for
personal use. I know that NZ has stringent health and butchering regs
similar to ours - best to ask now so you'll know how many arms and legs that
will cost you, also ask how much transport to your nearest aboattoir costs.
with 'globalisation and rationalisation' - ours is 3 hours away by car so
I'd hate to think what that would cost per beast and how long it would take
by truck.
Also check out the rules on home kill. It may be that like us you could
only be able to use home kill meat on the site (your MAF seems to be quite
strict). Also could you kill the beast yourself or would you need one of
those mobile professionals who have the cutting equipment, cooling rooms
etc? Cattle dress out to about 50% by weight so even a yearling will be
about 150-130kg of meat (although probably lower for a Highland). That is
a huge amount to deal with and you get all those dull cuts that you wouldn't
want anyway. (How big is your freezer and how much mince and bangers can you
face?).
Now another option is the open marketplace but Highlands aren't at all
popular. I had a quick look at some stats on NZ and found that NZ exports
about 80% of the beef produced and half of that market is from Angus and
Hereford and their crosses. The average herd size is about 240 cattle.
Noone is going to treat Highlands seriously there and realistically you will
get very little for any offspring.
Now are you sure you really want to do this? Didn't you used to spin? How
'bout a few nice sheep instead?
floot
Years ago, I was in Melbourne for a sales conference [finance] and had the
opportunity of visiting a hobby farm area with an Elders[stock] agent.
One of the calls he had to make, and mind you he was whinging all the time
while we were looking for this place, was to a 'farmer'. This kindly
gentleman had 6 acres of grassland and he leaned on his fencepost and asked
the Elders agent. 'How many sheep can I run on this place?'
I am rural born and was intrigued waiting for this reply. The Elders agent
picked up a handful of dirt, ran it through his fingers and looked this guy
straight in the eye asking;.. 'is that your goat out there??.
'If it is...... take the poor bastard a bale of hay!!'...
It was in an area that I [being desert born] looked pretty good to me but
the reality was 6 acres was waaaay below threshold for stocking with
anything more than pets.
I do think Fran's words are good advice but I am not all doom and gloom.
Nine acres will hold a number of poddy calves... small capital input, loads
of fun[work], sooo much to learn - with actual commercial results if you get
it right.
Commercial animals are truly worthwhile to own for many reasons. I have one
story though that I will tell after many years. At 19, through hard work and
financial prudence, I purchased 64 Hereford cows in calf. I ran them at
small cost in what now is a National Park. Most calved, I loved them all.
Drought struck. I fed them for about 5 months on juiced oranges, grape
stalks etc etc.
My old farmer mate helped me shoot them. Calves first. I was very approving
of selling them for slaughter etc etc. but just was not prepared for that.
It was a serious 'farming' lesson for me. It has made me very practical, I
don't procure anything now without having huge means to feed it. To this day
I still feel I failed those cows! The bones of those cows lasted at least 15
yrs that I know of.
The worst thing I heard that day was this...'Don't cry son, you may wound
one'.
I haven't owned more than one cow since. Time, finance and other things have
been against me but to be honest I probably still carry a bit of baggage
round from that time. I will probably never submit an animal to the vagaries
of 'the season' again. A couple of times on my 80 acres I have let people
put horses on. The minute they aren't feeding, talking to or caring for them
I literally throw the horses out - I have done this twice. I just don't need
anything on my place that is struggling or half-fed. Any animal around me is
well-fed, well-worked and...... well-eaten if that was its purpose.
Don't get me wrong. I love the 'upside' of owning stock, any sort, but
expect the worst and appreciate that others have gone before you.
On 9 acres in NZ...... I would be tempted to put in decent fencing and play
round with deer. Well handled deer do fetch a premium there.
Good luck and never let 'sage' advice stop you - just let it make you more
thoughtful.
floot
Fran
> I'm not X posting to misc rural as I'm not subscribed to them :0)
Is he at it again?
What the hell would the idiot be posting to misc rural for anyway? Noone
bothers to respond to him in misc.rural anymore and he needs for someone to
respond for me to be able to read him! He knows I have him killfiled but
this typically snide mess is obviously directed at me! He really is dead
doughy!
> "Hopelessly Midwestern" <yoss...@cyberdude.com> wrote in message
> > "Fran" <ma...@mak.com.au> wrote in message
>
> > He buys high quality (higher priced, but less expensive over the long
> because it
> > lasts) round bale feeders and headgates - and has absolutely NO problem
> with
> > horns. Not "specially made." Not "modified" in any fashion.
Well who would believe anything you say? You know nothing about cattle as
you have told us in the past. You grow soy beans on your 40 acres and have
never had anything to do with cattle. Can't you remember what yousay
anymore?
I assume that you are banging on again about your neighbour since you have
mentioned him in the past? If you live on 40 acres then chances are you
neighbour also lives on 40 acres. Yep that is a really serious catle
breeder!
You asked a question about raising Highlands on grass, NOW you say that your
neighbour buys "high quality (higher priced, but less expensive over the
long because it lasts) round bale feeders and headgates".
Obviously your neighbour is not raising his cattle on grass. Having a round
bale feeder is about feeding cattle! If you raise then on grass you do not
need a round bale feeder!
ALSO, any cattle producer worth a pinch of shit does not use a headgate!
Headgates are for small producers who do not have enough cattle to make it
worth their while buying real equipment which in US parlance is what you
would call a squeeze chute!
Talk about a rank bloody amateur, of course he didn't have any problems with
the horns - he doesn't have the proper set up, probably never has and if
he's anything like you he is too dumb to know the difference between a good
and a bad set up!
As for high price? Ye gods and little fishes, your neighbour has a round
bale feeder and a head gate and he classes that as being high price
equipment? Tell the miserable cheapskate to get some decent equipment!
> > The only problem with horns is on woven wire fence. High-tensile
electric
> does
> > a great job.
Yeah it does while there are no shorts but it is no replacement for a
propper well constructed fence. I boubt whether your neighbour is serious
and has a bull - he wouldn't rely on an electric fence if he had a bull, but
then since he is probably only on 40 acres and only has a headgate but does
feed out round bales he'd have perhaps 20 head so he wouldn't need a bull!!!
Wow, JR Ewing eat your heart out!
> <snipped snide remarks>
Oh those as usual!
> > He's selling slaughter steers for $3000 ($5800 Australian) average for
> grass
> > finished, and $1800 ($3500 Australian) average for pastured/feed-lot
> finished
> > animals on the freezer-beef market.
Good grief! Your government needs to renegotiate trade policies with more
able beef producing countries. Your consumers are being ripped off big
time! Noone here would pay anywhere near those prices!
Of course there are other options. Either US beef prices are at black
market levels, you have a lying neighbour, you are lying or you have a bunch
of particularly stupid consumers over there. I must ask in misc.rural if
those prices could possibly be real.
> > That's "making money" in anybody's book.
No it is not. That is you making a statement and util a more reliable
source gives some support for such a statement I would not believe you based
on past performance.
> I'm very curious about this so I have some q's; I don't suppose you know
> what the costs involved with raising these cattle are as opposed to
> 'regular' beef cattle or in contrast? What's the approx finished weight
of
> one of these beasties?
Highlands are one of the lighter breeds, but a 'normal' beef yearling that
would be sold in the open market could work out in the region of 300-350kg.
This would fetch about $A1.50- $1.80/kg liveweight, say an even $2 so that
would mean about $6-700 for a whole yearling straight off grass. Now a
carcase dresses out at about 50% (although the Higland breeders claim a
higher rate). For an organisation like Woolworths they would finish them on
90 days feed in a feedlot.
What exactly makes the finished product of this
> breed different to regular beef cattle? (so what makes it a saleable
product
> outside of normal factory farm channels?) How does your neighbour
transport
> his animals? I would assume it would be harder to transport them because
of
> the horns, surely cramming them into transport trucks would cause far more
> incidences of damage to the animals than say polled breed?
> Last question; how much slower are they to mature than a regular beef
breed
> as that would surely figure into the costs?
AM
You might like to have a look at the following which I have just turned up.
It makes all the same points that I made to Jan and which you obviously have
already thought up for yourself. Given the natrue of the organisation, the
site obviously still needs to be seen as being supportive of the Highland
producers and it is rather more soft soapish than me but it does cover the
issues.
http://www.nre.vic.gov.au/web/root/domino/infseries/infsheet.nsf/eef068dabe1
955c84a25652e0039a43a/14759304baeb8f964a2565bb006720b1?OpenDocument
Fran
> I do think Fran's words are good advice but I am not all doom and gloom.
Heavens, I didn't think I'd said anything THAT bad!
> Nine acres will hold a number of poddy calves... small capital input,
loads
> of fun[work], sooo much to learn - with actual commercial results if you
get
> it right.
I agree, grass eaters are a very good way to start.
Snip of terrible story of cows. We have a new neighbour at our other farm
who was advised by everyone NOT to put stock on his bush block where even
the kangaroos don't go. Of course he knows better, guess what?
> . Any animal around me is
> well-fed, well-worked and...... well-eaten if that was its purpose.
Exactly as it should be and very commendable.
> Well handled deer do fetch a premium there.
But isn't the competition rather fierce?
> Good luck and never let 'sage' advice stop you - just let it make you more
> thoughtful.
And here was me thinking that sage advice was given for for just those sorts
of reasons :-)).
Graham Burnett
> My question,
> has the word "organic" indeed been patented in England?
as I understand it, you can't use the word 'organic' to describe your
produce unless it has been accredited by the Soil Asssociation
www.soilassociation.org.uk . This is a difficult and expensive process, and
probably a limiting factor to many growers who would like to sell and market
their produce as organic. The way things stand at the moment it's rather
'all or nothing'- at the last UK permaculture Association national gathering
there was debate about this very issue, and the idea of a 'Permaculture
Accreditation' labelling system was tossed around, primarily for those 'in
conversion' or who are clearly and demonstarbly working towards greater
sustainablity and including permaculture principles and ethics in their
growing and business practices, even if they havn't quite 'got there' yet.
Nobody seemed very willing to undertake such a task however, although I did
find the Wholesome Food Association http://www.wfa.org.uk/ which seems to be
a positive step in that direction.
There is also the Vegan Organic Network's http://www.veganorganic.net/ Vegan
Organic accreditation scheme which is currently being set up- the first
person going for it is a friend of mine here in Southend On Sea!
Cheers
--
Graham Burnett
www.landandliberty.co.uk
Now available-
'Permaculture A Beginner's Guide'
also
tee shirts- 'Permaculture Manadala'
&
'Land Is Liberty- Plant A Seed Today...'
Ute Bohnsack
Carmen wrote:
[snip]
> My question,
> has the word "organic" indeed been patented in England?
> Regards
> Carmen
It hasn't been patented but in the European Union the term 'organic' and it's
equivalents in other languages (biologisch, biologique etc.) is protected, i.e.
only certified products may be marketed as organic. There are also limits on
what percentage of non-organic ingredients a processed product may contain
(pretty minute). This protection extends to imported products. On the upside it
serves consumer protection and also the producers who can thus command a
deserved premium. On the downside, as Graham has pointed out, the rather
expensive accreditation can be a barrier for small producers. On balance I think
it's a good thing. Otherwise anyone could call anything organic and the consumer
would have no control.
If you are interested, the full text of the relevant EU Regulation (which is
binding law in all Member States) is at http://home.prolink.de/~hps/ .
Ute
Hopelessly Midwestern
> What the hell would the idiot be posting to misc rural for anyway?
Rural folks know cattle. And they need to know about your shell game.
> He knows I have him killfiled but
> this typically snide mess is obviously directed at me! He really is dead
> doughy!
Fran, you're just like the folks in alt.permaculture have told me - a trouble
maker.
And you go to amazing troubles to reply to me. Amazing.
> > "Hopelessly Midwestern" <yoss...@cyberdude.com> wrote in message
> > > "Fran" <ma...@mak.com.au> wrote in message
> >
> > > He buys high quality (higher priced, but less expensive over the long
> > because it
> > > lasts) round bale feeders and headgates - and has absolutely NO problem
> > with
> > > horns. Not "specially made." Not "modified" in any fashion.
> Well who would believe anything you say? You know nothing about cattle as
> you have told us in the past.
Like I said, my neighbor's experience shows that you lie. You do not need to
buy modified or special equipment to handle Highland cattle.
I suppose you're pissed off because you've been told you're wrong.
> If you live on 40 acres then chances are you
> neighbour also lives on 40 acres. Yep that is a really serious catle
> breeder!
If..if..if...you stated I lived on too small of a place to raise beef.
Now you're bullshitting us.
You seem to know how much acreage I live on, so please guess again.
And quit guessing about my neighbor's place based on my acreage -- are you a
compete idiot?
> You asked a question about raising Highlands on grass, NOW you say that your
> neighbour buys "high quality (higher priced, but less expensive over the
> long because it lasts) round bale feeders and headgates".
>
> Obviously your neighbour is not raising his cattle on grass.
Isn't grass hay still "grass?" hmmmm...
Fran'll figure it out sometime the the Midwest can raise "grass finished"
cattle -- without shipping them to Florida for the winter.
> ALSO, any cattle producer worth a pinch of shit does not use a headgate!
> Headgates are for small producers who do not have enough cattle to make it
> worth their while buying real equipment which in US parlance is what you
> would call a squeeze chute!
> Talk about a rank bloody amateur, of course he didn't have any problems with
> the horns - he doesn't have the proper set up,
Fran, you've got your panties in a real wad, but the mistake is mine, not my
neighbor's, as you're desperately trying to make it.
> Yeah it does while there are no shorts but it is no replacement for a
> propper well constructed fence. I boubt whether your neighbour is serious
> and has a bull
Has a bull.
Are you ALWAYS wrong, Fran?
- he wouldn't rely on an electric fence if he had a bull, but
> then since he is probably only on 40 acres and only has a headgate but does
> feed out round bales he'd have perhaps 20 head so he wouldn't need a bull!!!
> Wow, JR Ewing eat your heart out!
>
> <snipped snide remarks>
>
> Oh those as usual!
What was the JR Ewing thing? Fran, you accuse people of what your are worst at.
It's a shame.
> > > He's selling slaughter steers for $3000 ($5800 Australian) average for
> > grass
> > > finished, and $1800 ($3500 Australian) average for pastured/feed-lot
> > finished
> > > animals on the freezer-beef market.
>
> Good grief! Your government needs to renegotiate trade policies with more
> able beef producing countries. Your consumers are being ripped off big
> time! Noone here would pay anywhere near those prices!
Still on your anti-US tirade?
Trade policies have nothing to do with it.
Beef sells at the sale barn for less than a dollar a pound in the US.
My neighbor gets a premium price because people percieve greater value from the
beef he produces.
> you have a lying neighbour, you are lying or you have a bunch
> of particularly stupid consumers over there.
Fran, you spew lies too much to be trustworthy of other people.
And you're envious.
Thus, your constant paranoia and accusations.
> I must ask in misc.rural if
> those prices could possibly be real.
Go ahead.
> > > That's "making money" in anybody's book.
> No it is not. That is you making a statement
Selling beef for over 3x the normal sale-barn price is indeed making money.
What's the approx finished weight
> of
> > one of these beasties?
1000 lbs
> What exactly makes the finished product of this
> > breed different to regular beef cattle?
Lower cholesterol, increased Omega-3 and CLA.
> Last question; how much slower are they to mature than a regular beef
> breed
They mature at three-quarter speed. Not bad when you can demand a premium price
like he does.
Jan
We have some sheep and pigs already and in our area we can run around 5 per
acre in a bad year, although many run many many more. The Stock Unit
comparison was very handy thanks. We have 25 sheep, and also prefer to
operate at worse case senario at all times so that we know we have heaps of
feed ahead of us. In fact we have just shut our flat land up for hay since
the grass is growing so fast at present. However, we cant guarantee that it
will always be that way. We have conventional yards at our disposal, and are
well grounded on the ways of the usual cattle breeds, with the husband
having been born and bred to a dairying family, and my daughter and I having
worked calf sheds for a local farmer where we raised 3000 calves last year.
We have raised three Hereford crosses of our own this year and they are
looking very good.
As a little bit of background that may explain my interest in the Highland
cattle, our long term consideration is open the property as a wildlife/farm
park. We already have a large collection of Australian parrots, a number of
NZ native avian species under DoC breeding programmes, lizards(more DoC
breeding programmes),turtles , chinchillas etc along with the usual cats,
dogs and chooks. A bonus for us is that the husband is also a welder ,
employed at building stock crates and is often called upon by clients to
design and build something different, either for stock trucks or elswhere
around the clients farm. He is a handy man and can invent things where the
need is seen. Very lucky for us as it saves a lot of expense and we usually
get custom made facilities to our exact requirements.
We have a number of visitors coming to our property already by appointment,
and it has amazed us how many young children have never experienced a farm
visit, never touched a lamb, never feed a bunch of chooks, never seen a
peacock parked up high in a tree etc. It gives us alot of pleasure to watch
a childs face when they feel the softness of a tiny orphaned Morepork or
watch a young Sulphur having a play with his nest mates, and to be able to
touch them. The purchase of the extra little bit of land means we can
consider some other species and, you are right, it is the visual appeal of
the Highlands that really tempts.
I did have a bit of a chuckle at your response though Fran as it sounded so
much like what we say to would be prospective Cockatoo and chinchilla
customers. They all come with the rose coloured view of what they expect to
get (probably as I have with Highland cattle :) ), and we make very certain
that they are in doubt about what they are getting and the pitfalls. We put
a lot of time and effort into our animals and get a lot of pleasure back,
and are damned if we are going to see them go into homes where they are
misunderstood and suffer as a result. We find the ones that ask a lot of
questions at the outset, have a period of reconsideration and then come back
are the safe bets. The others we put off quite smartly. So, I do appreciate
your frankness about the cattle.
Lots of food for thought for the future.
Cheers again.
Jan
Graham Burnett
> it's a good thing. Otherwise anyone could call anything organic and the
consumer
> would have no control
broadly I agree with you Ute, but I still see the need for some kind of
intermediate labelling system for producers who are working towards full
organic status.
Some of the conditions of SA accreditation seem a little overly stringent,
eg, our local organic shop 'The Happy Caterpillar' (gone now, unfortunately-
the owners moved to where you are, Ireland), used to collect customers
carrier bags for recycling rather than buying in new carrier bags,
apparently the SA wouldn't allow this in case the customers carrier bags had
previously contained non-organic veg which could 'contaminate' the organic
stuff- in 'purist' terms maybe that's the case, but it does seem to me to be
rather going against the spirit of sustainability....
Also as I understand it humanure isn't permitted to be used on SA standard
crops
Cheers, Graham
AM
> >
> > Obviously your neighbour is not raising his cattle on grass.
>
> Isn't grass hay still "grass?" hmmmm...
>
fed produces a different colour marble in the meat IIRC. I believe Japanese
pay a premium for grass fed beef.
>
>
>> > He's selling slaughter steers for $3000 ($5800 Australian) average for
> > > grass
> > > > finished, and $1800 ($3500 Australian) average for pastured/feed-lot
> > > finished
> > > > animals on the freezer-beef market.
>
>
> My neighbor gets a premium price because people percieve greater value
from the
> beef he produces.
>Selling beef for over 3x the normal sale-barn price is indeed making money.
>
> What's the approx finished weight
> > of
> > > one of these beasties?
>
> 1000 lbs
>
beef?
Your neighbours making well over 3x the normal sale-barn price then if he's
getting $3K for a slaughter steer. I guess it's relative. You probably
wouldn't get $5,800 here for a slaughter animal - regardless of how low in
fat/ hi in O-3 etc it was... it sounds much better in conversion :0) Even
if your math is as bad as mine apparently is. :0)
> > Last question; how much slower are they to mature than a regular beef
> > breed
>
> They mature at three-quarter speed. Not bad when you can demand a premium
price
> like he does.
>
Sounds like he's doing OK.
>
>
Fran
> We (snip) also prefer to
> operate at worse case senario at all times so that we know we have heaps
of
> feed ahead of us. In fact we have just shut our flat land up for hay since
> the grass is growing so fast at present. However, we cant guarantee that
it
> will always be that way.
We also are conservative stockers as hate the thought of flogging the land.
You've had severe drought over there haven't you?
We have conventional yards at our disposal, and are
> well grounded on the ways of the usual cattle breeds, (snip)
Now ya tell me:-)) I could have saved all that typing instead of trying to
teach Grannie to suck eggs! :-))
> As a little bit of background that may explain my interest in the Highland
(snip) , lizards
What sort? I rather like lizards and have lots of Blue Tongues in the
garden.
> (snip) A bonus for us is that the husband is also a welder ,
Can I borrow him please? Will send back in good condition! (I did a welding
course and learned enough to know that it scares the living daylights out of
me - my welding is lousy looking but I manage to do a really mean cut with
the oxy!)
> Very lucky for us as it saves a lot of expense and we usually
> get custom made facilities to our exact requirements.
I really will look after him very well. My plumber demands Devonshire Tea
when I need him!
> a childs face when they feel the softness of a tiny orphaned Morepork
Owl?????
> (snip) The purchase of the extra little bit of land means we can
> consider some other species and, you are right, it is the visual appeal of
> the Highlands that really tempts.
Highlands would be good for you in that case Jan and specifically if their
temper is as it is reputed. The smallness of the breed would be an
advantage too.
> I did have a bit of a chuckle at your response though Fran as it sounded
so
> much like what we say to would be prospective Cockatoo and chinchilla
> customers. They all come with the rose coloured view of what they expect
to
> get (probably as I have with Highland cattle :) ),
Well ias you just want them for the reasons you gave, and as you're already
fairly experieinced with cattle I don't think you would have any problems.
(Lets face it if you can tolerate 3000 calves, adults should be a snack! -
but what are calving sheds?)
> We put
> a lot of time and effort into our animals and get a lot of pleasure back,
Yeah, but wouldn't we be able to accomplish a lot if we didn't have all
these beaut mates that are always around chatting to us and sitting on us
and putting their paws or bums where we want to work. They take up as much
or more time than our human friends. (Mind you life would be much poorer
without the animals)
> and are damned if we are going to see them go into homes where they are
> misunderstood and suffer as a result. We find the ones that ask a lot of
> questions at the outset, have a period of reconsideration and then come
back
> are the safe bets. The others we put off quite smartly.
I really cannot understand some people and their attitudes to animals (or
children for that matter). There are some very sad specimens around TMWOT.
So, I do appreciate
> your frankness about the cattle.
S'alright Grannie! You already know enough about eggs to keep you out of
trouble.
> Lots of food for thought for the future.
Just living gives us that!
Fran
Fran
> > > Obviously your neighbour is not raising his cattle on grass.
> >
> > Isn't grass hay still "grass?" hmmmm...
> >
> Actually, no it's not. Hay fed vs grass fed - completely different.
Grass
> fed produces a different colour marble in the meat IIRC.
You're right AM, it is different and you are also right about the colour
difference, it's more yellow.
> >> > He's selling slaughter steers for $3000 ($5800 Australian) average
for
> > > > grass
> > > > > finished, and $1800 ($3500 Australian) average for
pastured/feed-lot
> > > > finished
> > > > > animals on the freezer-beef market.
> >
> > Beef sells at the sale barn for less than a dollar a pound in the US.
> >Selling beef for over 3x the normal sale-barn price is indeed making
money.
> >
> > What's the approx finished weight
> > > of
> > > > one of these beasties?
> >
> > 1000 lbs
> >
> That's not bad. I assume then that the carcass would produce apx 500lbs
of
> beef?
> Your neighbours making well over 3x the normal sale-barn price then if
he's
> getting $3K for a slaughter steer.
> I guess it's relative. You probably
> wouldn't get $5,800 here for a slaughter animal
Have you done the sums AM?;
Carcase of 500lb = 240kg (1lb=480g)
Hopeless stated that the return is $A5800, so divide return by weight, 240
into 5800 = $A24.17/kg!!!!!!
Now that figure not only includes prime eye fillet steak but mince meat as
well. Would you pay $24.17/kg for all meat ranging from eye fillet to
mince? (And if you would, have I got a deal for you!)
Hopelessly Midwestern
> You're right AM, it is different and you are also right about the colour
> difference, it's more yellow.
Grass and hay both have tendancy to have yellow fat.
Because both contain lots of beta carotene.
> Have you done the sums AM?;
> Carcase of 500lb = 240kg (1lb=480g)
> Hopeless stated that the return is $A5800, so divide return by weight, 240
> into 5800 = $A24.17/kg!!!!!!
Eat your heart out, Fran.
What you need to do is some serious marketing to people with money and very
concious of their health.
Instead of selling your cattle as a mere commodity.
If you didn't hate people so much, and have such a hate for free markets, you
might be successful at it.
Hopelessly Midwestern
> > >
> > > Obviously your neighbour is not raising his cattle on grass.
> >
> > Isn't grass hay still "grass?" hmmmm...
> >
> Actually, no it's not. Hay fed vs grass fed - completely different.
Feeding fresh grass is impossible in the Midwest (even with stockpiling), so
feeding hay is a winter must. And it is accepted terminology to call such
beasts, if feed on only on grass (and hay in the winter) grass fed.
It's not considered completely different.
Carmen
I wrote:-
>
> > My question,
> > has the word "organic" indeed been patented in England?
>
> as I understand it, you can't use the word 'organic' to describe your
> produce unless it has been accredited by the Soil Asssociation
> www.soilassociation.org.uk .
ok trade
you may have already seen our Soil & Health NZ website
http://www.soil-health.org.nz/index.htm
Following is our contact page, I am 3rd from the top.
Oh dear ! I see they still have my obsolete email on file,
oh well.
:)
http://www.soil-health.org.nz/branches.htm
>This is a difficult and expensive process,
organic certification has been a long and expensive process here as well, it
takes 3 years and during that time of 'transition' the grower pays expensive
levies to the certification authority, while in many cases while not
receiving the returns that fully certified producers do.
>and
> probably a limiting factor to many growers who would like to sell and
market
> their produce as organic.
yes the same here, that time of transition and the expenses/returns during
that time have made in impractical for many to make the commitment to going
organic, on the other hand there are also many who are/have been organic
farmers for years but don't seek certification because of the expense,
especially the small producers.
We now have a new scheme that is evolving which allows the smaller Domestic
Organic producers to enter a
Certification Scheme.
It is run by Soil & Health NZ:-
details forwarded from email :-
"Based on small groups of producers forming themselves into a unit and then
inspecting members properties in a peer audit system, the whole scheme runs
on a very low cost structure. Representatives from each group go on to make
up a regional body. This body controls the audit process through an
appointed inspector, which keeps a uniformity between all groups in a
region, while one of the current national certification bodies will audit
and accredit the regional bodies thus giving uniformity on a national level.
It doesn't matter if your property is large or small or just a section in
town, if you wish to be certified organic in a low cost national scheme that
caters only for the local market and not the big exporters then you will
attend this meeting.
A scheme like this can only help to grow the whole organic industry. "
I have some more comments on this but I will address them to Ute's reply as
they are relevant to various concerns he raises.
Carmen
Carmen
Ute Bohnsack <sus...@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:3BF6DCE6...@eircom.net...
>
>
> Carmen wrote:
> [snip]
> > My question,
> > has the word "organic" indeed been patented in England?
> > Regards
> > Carmen
>
>
> It hasn't been patented but in the European Union the term 'organic' and
it's
> equivalents in other languages (biologisch, biologique etc.) is protected,
i.e.
> only certified products may be marketed as organic.
Here is where we have the anomolies.
"organic' can be used by anyone here.
I know of two interesting occassions where people have visited properties
that have the words
"organic produce" on the garden gate.
One occassion a mate who already is a certified producer visited an "organic
produce" property he noticed there were 'clean' rings around the citrus
trees, that is rings of dead grass at the base of each tree, he asked the
woman how the grass come to be dead at the base of the trees, she replied
that her husband sprays around them with Roundup.
My mate replied "in that case you can't sell your produce as 'organic' " she
replied "oh yes we can Roundup breaks down"
LOL
The other occassion was similar but when asked if any sprays were used on
the property the woman replied that couldn't be certain what her husband
did.
So the upshot is anyone can use the word "organic" without restriction
BUT
only those who have achieved full certification standards can attach the
official certification labels to their product.
We are currently working to educate people to look for the certification
label when buying "certified organic" produce.
Because those who have achieved certification standards use official
'certified organic' labels, that is the protection for the consumer, but
this needs to become more broadly publicised.
>There are also limits on
> what percentage of non-organic ingredients a processed product may contain
> (pretty minute). This protection extends to imported products. On the
upside it
> serves consumer protection and also the producers who can thus command a
> deserved premium. On the downside, as Graham has pointed out, the rather
> expensive accreditation can be a barrier for small producers. On balance I
think
> it's a good thing. Otherwise anyone could call anything organic and the
consumer
> would have no control.
Well at the moment, as i say. anyone can label anything at all 'organic' but
the true indicator of whether it IS ACTUALLY 'organic' is the certification
label and producer number.
The new certification scheme that has just eventuated, see details in my
reply to Graham, will go some way into cleaning up the current loop holes.
Now that certification will be more achievable and affordable for small
producers, it should put the squeeze on those who are misleading in their
use of the word 'organic', as the terms of what is authentic 'organic'
become more broadly publicised, but there also needs to be a rigorous public
education programme about the terms and definitions of 'organic'.
The new scheme will, I think, go some way to force the ones using the term
'organic' when their produce isn't genuinely so, to seek certification and
thus clean up their present methods.
I think perhaps some of those currently using the term 'organic'
misleadingly may not be aware of, perhaps need some education about, the
actual requirements and certification standards.
Many people here don't seem to realise the terms and conditions of what is
*truly* organic ie there is public perception that Roundup is ok, perhaps
largely due to the way roundup etc are advertised by the corporations and
advertising spin-doctors, as being 'Enviro-friendly'.
But I think there are also producers who are using the term 'organic'
dishonestly, that is, knowing full well that their methods are outside the
limitations of what is authentic.
Thanks for the link, I have been reading it, paragraph 6 page 1 should be
helpful in an on-going argument I have been involved with in
nz.politics
:)
Carmen
Carmen
err
the 'paragraph 6' below, should actually read
'paragraph 10'
:)
carmen
Jan
> We also are conservative stockers as hate the thought of flogging the
land.
> You've had severe drought over there haven't you?
very dry and just before spring we had heaps of rain (in the Manawatu
anyway). We did have the worst frosts we have evr experience here too, which
saw the demise of some of the more delcate plants unfortunatly. We have had
some regular rain lately, but notice that the ground is drying very fast
afterward, seemingly more so than usual. Maybe we are becoming paranoid :)?
> Now ya tell me:-)) I could have saved all that typing instead of trying
to
> teach Grannie to suck eggs! :-))
Please don' think you wasted your time. With our parrot breeding experience
in mind, we have found that many people think that because they have had or
bred budgies for example, they can take on anything and do a good job. The
truth is however usually different, and every new species we have taken in,
we have researched first, long before the birds arrive, and always find some
little peculiar querk that must be accomodated to provide the best
environment for that species.I assumed that Highlands would be the same, and
that previously acquired experience with cattle in general would not be
enough. Certainly your warnings about crushes and horn spans etc proves that
to be true. Not something we have ever had to consider.
>lizards
>
> What sort? I rather like lizards and have lots of Blue Tongues in the
> garden.
I have 7 species of NZ native gecko, all held under Department of
Conservation permit.Some are in a range of beautiful browns and mossy green
colours, some are bright apple green or canary yellow (colour mutations of
the greens) Quite fascinating but terrible time wasters. I worked at a pet
shop where there was a blue tongue on display. She was lovely and it was my
job to look after her since the rest of the staff were terrified of her. I
used to take her out occassionally so some kids could feel her silky skin
and as she was a placid specimen, she never once minded. In fact she used to
come slithering over when I opened up her pen and look for contact.
> > (snip) A bonus for us is that the husband is also a welder ,
> Can I borrow him please?
Sorry no deal :)
> > a childs face when they feel the softness of a tiny orphaned Morepork
> Owl?????
Yes, known as a Boobook over there I think. We have hand reared and soft
released some orphans brought in by DoC.
> but what are calving sheds?
The sheds we worked in were gigantic, like airplane hangers, pens down each
side with an access race up the middle. The pens were covered with heavy
duty plastic but the center run was open to the elements. EAch pen was about
30' x 20' and held 20 calves up until they reached 60-65 kg and then they
were moved out into pasture.The substrate was bark chip and peelings to a
depth of 1 foot, so they had nice spongy beds and did rather well. One shed
had 32 pens and the other had 50 something. Enormous. Even when both sheds
were full to capacity, it was still easy to recognise those individuals that
stood out by way of personality or other ways.
> these beaut mates that are always around chatting to us and sitting on us
> and putting their paws or bums where we want to work. They take up as
much
> or more time than our human friends. (Mind you life would be much poorer
> without the animals)
Too true. My vege garden is supervised by a block of aviaries that houses
all our Cockatoos, Corellas and a pair of Kakas. I usually end up stopping
at regular intervals to have a good laugh as the Sulphurs NEVER stop
talking, laughing and generally doing anything they can to make me stop and
talk to them. Some of the things they come out with are hilarious. 2 of them
have the most wicked contagious laughs, -lots of fun. One of my Kakas wolf
whistles every time she sees me. She is one we incubated and reared from the
egg and I can still, after 4 years go and cuddle her, tip her unside down
and scratch her tummy etc, but she is wicked when it comes to trying to do
anything in her pen. She sits on my head and hangs over so she can peer into
my face and she says 'doing?doing?' until I tell her exactly what I am doing
in there. she rummages for things in my pockets if she hears any rustling,
and when she sees me coing with an arm load of weed greens, she shouts
'Woooooaaaaaaaaahhhh' and laughs. Hard case girl she is.
I just love being home, listening and talking to all the animals that we
have around, working in the garden etc. There is nothing nicer than
gardening and having to tell a beautiful peacock to get his display feathers
out of the way so you can wheel the barrow past, or to have a bantam
appearing out of the garden to show off her latest clutch of chicks. It is
a real priviledge to have a life like this. I am sure that most of us who
love the land experience something similar on a regular basis.
Good greif, this is a bit long. Sorry people ;)
Jan
Janet Baraclough
from "Jan" <jan_nz...@hotmail.com> contains these words:
> As a little bit of background that may explain my interest in the Highland
> cattle, our long term consideration is open the property as a wildlife/farm
> park.(snip)
> We have a number of visitors coming to our property already by appointment,
> and it has amazed us how many young children have never experienced a farm
> visit, never touched a lamb, never feed a bunch of chooks, never seen a
> peacock parked up high in a tree etc.
Hi Jan...I'm in west Scotland, home of the Highland :-). There are
plenty round here, but as tourist attractions/ lifestyle-farm tough
grazers these days...both the local farmers I knew who kept them for
beef gave them up for post-BSE financial reasons.They do have a name
for peaceable docility, except when they have new calves...they don't
keep their newborns at foot, but hide them in the rough and return to
suckle them several times a day, rather like deer do. The calves are
very well camouflaged on the moor/hill and incredibly hard to spot,
and it is very dangerous to accidentally walk near a calf or between
a calf and its mother...they will use the huge horns to defend.
"Farm centres" such as you describe were all the rage here in the
last decade,until some child picked up an e coli infection during a
school visit to a farm centre and the parents sued; this forced all
education authorities to ban school visits and the business just died
a death all over the country.You might want to make some enquiries to
see if you have a fussy health and safety legislation there.
Janet.
Jan
Theres another new piece of info on Highlands, I certainly didn't know they
planted their young. If we ever get that far, we will keep that in mind.
The Health and Safety issue is a biggie here too, with some poor farmers
having been caught in a spot, with injuries to even unauthorised visitors
creating problems for them.
I think the easiest way round it here is take out Public Liability insurance
which is really not to expensive compared to the alternatives. The Husband
did some pest control work in gov't estate land and he had to carry Public
Liability insurance of 1/2 million NZ dollars as a requirement of the
contract, and the premium was only about $150 per year. Certainly not enough
to break the bank, but it brings a great deal of peace of mind.
Jan
lflo...@mindspring.com
<janet.a...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>The message <nILJ7.376$kM3....@news02.tsnz.net>
> from "Jan" <jan_nz...@hotmail.com> contains these words:
>
>> As a little bit of background that may explain my interest in the Highland
>> cattle, our long term consideration is open the property as a wildlife/farm
>> park.(snip)
>> We have a number of visitors coming to our property already by appointment,
>> and it has amazed us how many young children have never experienced a farm
>> visit, never touched a lamb, never feed a bunch of chooks, never seen a
>> peacock parked up high in a tree etc.
> "Farm centres" such as you describe were all the rage here in the
>last decade,until some child picked up an e coli infection during a
>school visit to a farm centre and the parents sued; this forced all
>education authorities to ban school visits and the business just died
>a death all over the country.You might want to make some enquiries to
>see if you have a fussy health and safety legislation there.
Or get really good farm liability, product liability or homeowner' s
insurance.
L.F.London ICQ#27930345 lflo...@mindspring.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech lon...@ibiblio.org
AM
Of course I'd done my sums :0)
As I said, my maths must be bad coz my figures didn't add up - unless it's a
2000lb cow.
Sorry, I'm not doing deals on beef today, i'm going to check out a 30kilo
chicken, can I interest you in a $85- breast fillet ???
AM
"Fran" <ma...@mak.com.au> wrote in message
news:9t885f$te0j$1...@ID-60053.news.dfncis.de...
Fran
> > You've had severe drought over there haven't you?
> We have had a bit of a strange time where rain is concerned. (snip)
> Maybe we are becoming paranoid :)?
Well I suspect that you are in good company with a lot of old farmers,
anyone reaching middle age and a whole lot of scientists. Lots of weather
patterns have been doolall of late and it would be silly to disregard it.
Where we are, THE windy month used to be August (records on that go back a
very long time and there was only one windy month!). Now the wind blows
from May to November (at least). You can just imagine what that does to the
soil moisture levels and production. But of course there is no such thing
as climate change............
> (snip) we have found that many people think that because they have had or
> bred budgies for example, they can take on anything and do a good job. The
> truth is however usually different, and every new species we have taken
in,
> we have researched first, long before the birds arrive, and always find
some
> little peculiar querk that must be accomodated to provide the best
> environment for that species.
I know exactly what you mean and even within species (ie dogs, ducks, chooks
etc) there are often huge variations.
> >lizards
> >
> > What sort? I rather like lizards and have lots of Blue Tongues in the
> > garden.
> I have 7 species of NZ native gecko, all held under Department of
> Conservation permit.Some are in a range of beautiful browns and mossy
green
> colours, some are bright apple green or canary yellow (colour mutations of
> the greens) Quite fascinating but terrible time wasters.
Do you know of a URL to show what they look like please?
I worked at a pet
> shop where there was a blue tongue on display. She was lovely and it was
my
> job to look after her since the rest of the staff were terrified of her. I
> used to take her out occassionally so some kids could feel her silky skin
> and as she was a placid specimen, she never once minded. In fact she used
to
> come slithering over when I opened up her pen and look for contact.
At our last house, we had some rising damp problems in one part of the
house. Previous owners had installed placcy ag pipe with holes in it to
help drain away excess moisture and they did a very poor job as the end
which most needed to be underground and at the lowest level was left
sticking out of the ground and directed the water back towards the wall
base.
We knew we'd have to fix it but as it was one of a very long line of chores
we just used to discuss it and inspect it and speculate about it regularly.
We knew that there was a huge Bluey living in it as we'd often see his head
sticking out when we went to look at it.
One day I caught Himself rolling snails down into the aggy pipe. When I
tackled him on what he was doing he shamefacedly admitted that he was
feeding the Bluey. He had apparently been doing it for months but wouldn't
admit to it. (I suspect that this might have been one of the reasons why
the aggy pipe relocation chore kept slipping down the 'to do' list).
> > > (snip) A bonus for us is that the husband is also a welder ,
>
> > Can I borrow him please?
> Sorry no deal :)
You can come too - we could gossip while he works???????
> > > a childs face when they feel the softness of a tiny orphaned Morepork
> > Owl?????
> Yes, known as a Boobook over there I think.
Yes, that sounds right. We have one round here that is only heard on still
summer evenings. Gorgeous sound.
We have hand reared and soft
> released some orphans brought in by DoC.
That sounds like a lot of work. What is 'soft released'?
>
EAch pen was about
> 30' x 20' and held 20 calves up until they reached 60-65 kg and then they
> were moved out into pasture.
So these are dairy replacements?
> Enormous.
YES!!!!
Even when both sheds
> (snip) she says 'doing?doing?' (snip) Hard case girl she is.
Loved the description and I know just what you mean. The personality of
birds is just astounding. My sister is a very big fan of parrots and has
been since she was a child. Currently she has an Alexandrine which says to
my nieces, "You good boy?". He also lies on the dining room table on his
back and want's his chest scratched.
I don't have the patience she has with birds but I just love watching her
and her birds as they respond so amazingly.
> I just love being home, listening and talking to all the animals that we
> have around, working in the garden etc. There is nothing nicer than
> gardening and having to tell a beautiful peacock to get his display
feathers
Get in touch off list please. I have a garden site for you that I think you
would like :-))).
> It is
> a real priviledge to have a life like this. I am sure that most of us who
> love the land experience something similar on a regular basis.
Yes :-)) I suspect most of us understand that reaction :))
>
> Good greif, this is a bit long. Sorry people ;)
A darned good read!
Fran
Fran
> There are
> plenty round here, but as tourist attractions/ lifestyle-farm tough
> grazers these days...both the local farmers I knew who kept them for
> beef gave them up for post-BSE financial reasons.They do have a name
> for peaceable docility, except when they have new calves...they don't
> keep their newborns at foot, but hide them in the rough and return to
> suckle them several times a day, rather like deer do. The calves are
> very well camouflaged on the moor/hill and incredibly hard to spot,
> and it is very dangerous to accidentally walk near a calf or between
> a calf and its mother...they will use the huge horns to defend.
Other cattle breeds (and particular individuals within those breeds) also do
this to a greater or lesser extent. Santa Gertrudis and their crosses seem
to park their young and only feed several times a day. They aren't as good
at hiding their offspring as Hereford though.
I well remember being instructed by Himself to take ma-in-law out to see the
newest calf as he was heading out the front gate. Ma-in-law doesn't like
walking but as the calf was in the small paddock next to the house he
thought she'd enjoy it and would last the distance. About 2 hours later in
and increasing sense of panic we finally found the darned calf!
Poor old ma-in-law was getting increasing distraught and tired anticipating
how upset her precious son would be if the calf was missing (I told her it
would be there as the cow was grazing very serenely but just keeping an eye
on us - like all ma-in-laws she wouldn't believe me!).
The cow had tucked the calf in behind a tussock beside the fence and it was
simply impossible to see. We had walked past that spot at least 5 times!
Ma-in-law still talkes about the time she rescued the calf from certain
death. (Somehow she forgets that it was me who finally spotted it!)
> You might want to make some enquiries to
> see if you have a fussy health and safety legislation there.
Good point Janet.
Fran
floot
Good to hear you have livestock experience. I have had any number of
visitors to my place. I often rounded up a clucky chook with chicks and took
them to daycare centres and pre-schools when my kids were smaller.
I also bred parrots as a kid... Major Mitchells, in fact, neophemas and
rosellas. Given your experience I think Highland cattle would be great. Get
that hubby of yours to make some bells for them. Old saw blades bent round
and riveted work well.
I have only ever seen them in Scotland where they were just called 'herry
koos'. I adored them but don't live in an area where I could have them. They
would be a stand-out feature of any Farm as you envisage.
If you are buying any public liability insurance get a 'plain english' copy
of the policy document and read it.
I always told people that 'my insurance covers me for everything except
claims'. After some massive floods 3 yrs ago that went through 3 businesses
I now know this to be fact.
Floot
Fran
> Of course I'd done my sums :0)
> As I said, my maths must be bad coz my figures didn't add up - unless it's
a
> 2000lb cow.
:-))))
> Sorry, I'm not doing deals on beef today, i'm going to check out a
> 30kilo chicken, can I interest you in a $85- breast fillet ???
Now that's from a size 15 chicken I assume? Sure why not.
Come in Spinner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-))))
Jan
> Jan,
>
> Good to hear you have livestock experience. I have had any number of
> visitors to my place. I often rounded up a clucky chook with chicks and
took
> them to daycare centres and pre-schools when my kids were smaller.
Don't they just love it. In NZ we are just starting to get into animal
visits for people in rest homes, hospitals etc for rehab purposes. While Mum
was having a few days in hospice to settle her modication at one point, she
was visited by an alpaca. She has seen them before, and has had lots of
animal contact (with all four kids being in rural homes) but having an
alpaca coming into her room to visit her was something else.
> I also bred parrots as a kid... Major Mitchells, in fact, neophemas and
> rosellas.
Ah Majors, the Husbands dream. A bit pricey for us still over here so still
on the long list.
> I always told people that 'my insurance covers me for everything except
> claims'. After some massive floods 3 yrs ago that went through 3
businesses
> I now know this to be fact.
LOL, but sadly too often true
Jan
Jan
I have heard.
Jan
Jan
> One day I caught Himself rolling snails down into the aggy pipe. When I
> tackled him on what he was doing he shamefacedly admitted that he was
> feeding the Bluey. He had apparently been doing it for months but
wouldn't
> admit to it. (I suspect that this might have been one of the reasons why
> the aggy pipe relocation chore kept slipping down the 'to do' list).
LOL - busted. Mind you he was getting rid of a few snails and putting them
to good use.
>
> > > > (snip) A bonus for us is that the husband is also a welder ,
> >
> > > Can I borrow him please?
> > Sorry no deal :)
>
> You can come too - we could gossip while he works???????
Sounding better now Fran
> That sounds like a lot of work. What is 'soft released'?
Soft release is a release where the bird can come back for food and sheleter
until it weans itself in its own time. Buddy our first morepork took a long
time to relase herself, and used to come back for visits even after she
found herself a mate. She used to come into the house through our spa room
where the underneath of the eaves (made of insect mesh to let the steam
out) had rusted and developed a hole. She used to fly into each of the
bedrooms and sit on the top of the door. When she had checked us all out, if
there was a cat on the bed she would swoop down and prickle them with her
claws and be off before they knew what had hit them. Being silent flyers,
the poor cats never knew when she was coming and they were terrified of her.
She used to come into the longue and clean up all the moths when we had the
doors wide open and it was quite nromal to watch the tele with a Morepork on
your shoulder (until she did business down yer back!). Anyway, she found a
mate and when she came to visit he would wait outside in the trees but would
call her if she stayed inside too long. One day he called when she first
came inside and after that she stayed out with him and started visiting from
a gradually increasing distance. Then they took off, presumably to establish
a breeding territory and we haven't seen them for about 3 years. A bit sad,
but a successful release all the same.We have some great photos of her, so
when I get around to putting up our website, I will include some.
> So these are dairy replacements?
Ahem - popular burger eatery contract
Cheers
Jan
Ute Bohnsack
I'm glad the link was useful, and fair dues for the work you are doing.
Education is extremely important. I part-owned/worked in an organic food shop
for about 7 years back in Germany and the day-to-day direct personal contact
with the customers was the most important educational tool. Over time people
learned how to distinguish between the con products and the real thing (this was
before the 1991 EU regulation). We spend a lot of time and money on consumer
education, hopefully to the benefit of the movement and the true organic farmers
in the long run.
You may also have noticed that there is scope for farmers/growers in conversion
to sell their products as such ("in conversion"). This helps them to get a
higher price for their products during the difficult conversion phase.
One thing that helps organic farmers who are not certified is to sell directly
to consumers who know and trust them. We have a small organic market here (once
a year just unfortunately) where non-certified home producers are allowed to
sell. Since it's a rather familiar affair I have been able to sell produce at
'organic prices' (because they are organic) without having certification. The
buyers are neighbours and friends and friends of friends etc. They know me and
they trust I'm not secretely going out spraying roundup or whatever. Obviously
I'm not commercial. But I believe (and have come across accounts to this effect)
that if small direct marketers explain why they are seeking certification and
open their farm gate to visitors (open days etc.) that they can achieve the
prices they deserve. This is not a solution, however, for people who sell to
wholesalers, shops, or to the export market.
Another link you may find useful is www.ifoam.org (the International Federation
of Organic Agricultural Movements - basically the international organic
standards body).
Slán,
Ute
AM
I think Aust. organic 'rules' are similar to NZ. We have a couple (maybe
upto 4) recognised organic bodies from whom growers/producers can gain
certification. It is a massively expensive and time consuming process to
get certification (nearly said to get certified!! though the same probably
applies). Without the little logo's there's no guarantee, but the
definition of organic is also somewhat a grey area. For awhile here a year
or so back you could purchase 'Organic Sugar Cane Mulch'. It didn't come
from organic farms, it was sprayed with all of the stuff they spray with.
When it came out the company used the argument that by virtue of what it was
it *was* organic and they had no certification, pay your money take your
chance. A sad thing if you're a back yard grower aiming at feeding your
family and friends organically.
On the subject of ownership of words, I was told by a pal recently that
unless you have a PDC you can't legally use the word Permaculture in any
context pertaining to yourself and gardening... I had a vague memory of this
from when I did a course, does any one else know if this is true?
AM
"Carmen" <ca...@nothere.or.anywhere> wrote in message
news:9t8uj7$ob2$1...@news.wave.co.nz...
>
> Here is where we have the anomolies.
> "organic' can be used by anyone here.
> I know of two interesting occassions where people have visited properties
> that have the words
> "organic produce" on the garden gate.
> One occassion a mate who already is a certified producer visited an
"organic
> produce" property he noticed there were 'clean' rings around the citrus
> trees, that is rings of dead grass at the base of each tree, he asked the
> woman how the grass come to be dead at the base of the trees, she replied
> that her husband sprays around them with Roundup.
> My mate replied "in that case you can't sell your produce as 'organic' "
she
> replied "oh yes we can Roundup breaks down"
> LOL
> The other occassion was similar but when asked if any sprays were used on
> the property the woman replied that couldn't be certain what her husband
> did.
> So the upshot is anyone can use the word "organic" without restriction
> BUT
> only those who have achieved full certification standards can attach the
> official certification labels to their product.
> We are currently working to educate people to look for the certification
> label when buying "certified organic" produce.
>
> :)
> Carmen
>
>
Janet Baraclough
from lflo...@mindspring.com contains these words:
> >a death all over the country.You might want to make some enquiries to
> >see if you have a fussy health and safety legislation there.
> Or get really good farm liability, product liability or homeowner' s
> insurance.
Standard homeowner's PLI here, doesn't cover claims from paying
visitors/clients or paid employees.
In UK law at least,normal public liability insurance protects you in
civil, not criminal,law, if someone visiting your property for normal
domestic reasons suffers an *accident* or *unforeseen incident*.
If the injured person is there to buy a service from you,(as paying
farm visitors are), it's a whole different ball game; you're subject
to far tighter legal definitions of risk, liability and HSE safety
regs. If a business flouts industrial HSE law, and exposes the paying
public on its premises to danger,its owners or employees could end up
in a criminal court and prison. It's a big issue for anyone trying to
run a business which brings paying clients into their home.
Once a particular risk has come to light in case law (and been shown
to be unavoidable in this case), insurance companies are very quick
to nail down cover rules which can make a business inoperable.
In this case, the enquiry produced the astonishing revelation that
the faeces, coats, and pens of most farm animals, and the ground in
farms, unavoidably harbour bacteria which is potentially harmful to
young children; that those bacteria enter humans from contaminated
hands; and that children constantly put their hands in their mouths.
Of course the farming community pointed out that they also have
children but it was shown that farm-reared kids have developed much
stronger immune systems; modern city children raised with over-used
antibiotics and over-used anti bacterial wipes don't have good
resistance to farmyard bacteria so are at risk.
Adults take legal responsibility for children. This legal precedent
left education authorities and farm life centres in a hopeless
position, obtaining insurance against a paying-visitor child meeting
farmyard faecal bacteria became a practical impossibility, and all
employees were put in a risky position.That's what nailed the
farm-visit business here. A similar thing is happening to many other
kinds of UK childrens activities; it only takes one parent to set a
legal precedent of massive compensation claims after one tragedy, and
millions of childrens' lives are diminished by the schools and
business insurance fall out.
NZ and UK are part of the same Commonwealth. I'm not sure if the UK
legal precedent would carry weight in a NZ court or with NZ
commercial insurers; in Jan's shoes I'd take some legal advice to find out.
Janet.
lflo...@mindspring.com
<janet.a...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>The message <krugvtsoivhv6ro2m...@4ax.com>
> from lflo...@mindspring.com contains these words:
>
>
>> >a death all over the country.You might want to make some enquiries to
>> >see if you have a fussy health and safety legislation there.
>
>> Or get really good farm liability, product liability or homeowner' s
>> insurance.
>
> Standard homeowner's PLI here, doesn't cover claims from paying
>visitors/clients or paid employees.
>
> In UK law at least,normal public liability insurance protects you in
>civil, not criminal,law, if someone visiting your property for normal
>domestic reasons suffers an *accident* or *unforeseen incident*.
Here in NC, Farm Bureau Insurance offers "Product Liability
Insurance", which, as far as I can tell, suffices for farm liability
insurance regarding coverage of anything that might befall
your customers on your property. It also covers any problem a customer
might have with any product you sell in markets off your property,
i.e. client A eats green worm in oganic broccoli you grew and sold
through local supermarket and has enough of a problem with this to
complain to the store or possibly sue them, you or all.
There must me a version of this in NZ, though it may be farm
liability, with clauses similar to workmens comprehensive that would
cover damages to farm visitors, customers and employees. Or she could
just look for a policy that covered employees with a rider that would
also cover paying customers and all visitors, and neighbors too for
that matter; also a combined farm liability and homowner's liability.
This ought to cover much of the issue, but knowing the honorable JB,
this will only be a droplet in the olde wooden bucket ........... :-)
........ dirtfarmer ducking out back door
Janet Baraclough
from lflo...@mindspring.com contains these words:
> ........ dirtfarmer ducking out back door
stay there until I tell you, and get that deer fence finished while
you're out there...
The Hon. Janet
Fran
> I'll have get back to you on that...
Ta muchly - will look out for it.
> > That sounds like a lot of work. What is 'soft released'?
> Soft release is a release where the bird can come back for food and
sheleter
> until it weans itself in its own time. (snip) We have some great photos of
her, so
> when I get around to putting up our website, I will include some.
Thanks for that lovely description of Buddy. It must have been lovely being
able to see and know such a lovely creature at such close quarters. Loved
the description of the cats :-))
> > So these are dairy replacements?
> Ahem - popular burger eatery contract
I wish I hadn't asked.
Fran
Carmen
> Hi Carmen,
>
> I think Aust. organic 'rules' are similar to NZ. We have a couple (maybe
> upto 4) recognised organic bodies from whom growers/producers can gain
> certification. It is a massively expensive and time consuming process to
> get certification (nearly said to get certified!! though the same probably
> applies). Without the little logo's there's no guarantee, but the
> definition of organic is also somewhat a grey area. For awhile here a
year
> or so back you could purchase 'Organic Sugar Cane Mulch'. It didn't come
> from organic farms, it was sprayed with all of the stuff they spray with.
There is similar here
'organic' peastraw mulch and various other mulches and garden items very
often aren't certified as such but are able to be labelled as organic, I
think, simply by virtue of the dictionary dfinition.
:)
Carmen
Carmen
> Dear Carmen,
> I'm glad the link was useful, and fair dues for the work you are doing.
> Education is extremely important. I part-owned/worked in an organic food
shop
> for about 7 years back in Germany and the day-to-day direct personal
contact
> with the customers was the most important educational tool. Over time
people
> learned how to distinguish between the con products and the real thing
(this was
> before the 1991 EU regulation). We spend a lot of time and money on
consumer
> education, hopefully to the benefit of the movement and the true organic
farmers
> in the long run.
> You may also have noticed that there is scope for farmers/growers in
conversion
> to sell their products as such ("in conversion"). This helps them to get a
> higher price for their products during the difficult conversion phase.
Generally the status of conversion doesn't automatically equate to higher
price here, so the new strategy for smaller producers will address many of
the problems.
> One thing that helps organic farmers who are not certified is to sell
directly
> to consumers who know and trust them. We have a small organic market here
(once
> a year just unfortunately) where non-certified home producers are allowed
to
> sell. Since it's a rather familiar affair I have been able to sell produce
at
> 'organic prices' (because they are organic) without having certification.
The
> buyers are neighbours and friends and friends of friends etc. They know me
and
> they trust I'm not secretely going out spraying roundup or whatever.
Small local markets have sprung up in various locations and there is much
word of mouth opportunity here also, those who are aware of the networks are
amply supplied.
So it works by the people for the people.
Like you I am not a commercial producer and doubt that I will head down that
particular path, I believe in simply producing for household requirements,
it's more a "learning curve" than commercial gains thing.
However, there are other aspects to achieving organic certification, thos in
transition or certified producers have a foot hold to having some say in
what goes on in their immediate community.
ie if the district council has a spray programme down the street, or if one
borders a school, community park or reserve, or other public facilities,
then there is better opportunity and some sway to request that no sprays, or
other undesirables are used within a certain circumference of the property.
So there are more than just commercial advantages to gaining organic
certification, it allows a for a certain amount of activism within the
immediate community, in upholding ones rights as organic land management.
:)
Carmen
Walter Daniels
>"AM" <sunshine....@potogold.com> wrote in message
>> "Hopelessly Midwestern" <yoss...@cyberdude.com> wrote in message
>> > "Fran" <ma...@mak.com.au> wrote in message
>Oh those as usual!
>> > He's selling slaughter steers for $3000 ($5800 Australian) average for grass
>> > finished, and $1800 ($3500 Australian) average for pastured/feed-lot finished
>> > animals on the freezer-beef market.
>Good grief! Your government needs to renegotiate trade policies with more
>able beef producing countries. Your consumers are being ripped off big
>time! Noone here would pay anywhere near those prices!
IIRC, prices are about $0.50-0.60/lb live weight. However,
"certified organic," might get higher prices, at specialty
restaurants. Angus Beef, as opposed to Holstein(?), is retailing at
"My God, I wanted a steak, not the whole damn cow," prices. :-) $4+ as
pound is _steak_ prices, not "ground beef," AFAIC.
>Of course there are other options. Either US beef prices are at black
>market levels, you have a lying neighbour, you are lying or you have a bunch
>of particularly stupid consumers over there. I must ask in misc.rural if
>AM
>
>You might like to have a look at the following which I have just turned up.
>It makes all the same points that I made to Jan and which you obviously have
>already thought up for yourself. Given the natrue of the organisation, the
>site obviously still needs to be seen as being supportive of the Highland
>producers and it is rather more soft soapish than me but it does cover the
>issues.
>
>http://www.nre.vic.gov.au/web/root/domino/infseries/infsheet.nsf/eef068dabe1
>955c84a25652e0039a43a/14759304baeb8f964a2565bb006720b1?OpenDocument
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Walter Daniels
wrote:
>
>> sized chunk of land you will not be able to have many
>Fran, can you tell me how many acres you need to support one Highland beast?
>I would love to have some one day, but as we only have 9 acres, I am not
>sure how realistic that is.
>We have about 4 acres each in flats and hill face. It is quite sheltered,
>but has one hill face that has a water spring in it, and is apt to become a
>slip risk with too many cattle on it.
>Do you think that we could provide a suitable home for maybe 3-4 of these
>animals.
Expectation for _normal_ cattle, is 1 per acre. This provides about
500 pounds of meat (asst. cuts).
>Cheers
>Jan