Out-Of-Control; kid or adult....
Burt Keeble
My 13-year-old son responds to being sent to his room by cussing out
his father, in front of his younger brother and mother. Non physical
diplomatic approaches (grounding, light off, door closed) only seem
to escalate the problem.
This dad decided to apply the hand of instruction to the seat of
knowledge. The immediate result of this action was that mom headed
for the police; but aborted the threat. Son snuck out of the house
while I was in the shower (I didn't want to go to the slammer dirty),
and spent an hour roaming the relatively safe streets around our house,
for about an hour. Mom found him and took him for a drive and a chat.
Neither would speak to me when they returned. The next day we got it
resolved and things have returned to normal, including acceptance of a
week of grounding (this had increased to a month during the heat of
battle).
It seemed at the time that I had a son who would openly defy his parents
and was encouraged to continue that behavior by the non-punishing mom.
I still feel that way. I'm not into beating my kid, and I only smacked
his bare ass. I don't consider this to be child abuse.
But I am convinced that retribution should be swift and meaningful. I
don't want a situation to develop (truancy, drugs, run-away, aggression,
or whatever) that will later require extensive (and perhaps unsuccessful
counseling. I want my offspring to obey their parents and respect their
authority.
I would welcome some feedback on this.
-burt
_
,__c <o>
,__c _-\_<, |
- - - - - - - - _-\_<,- - ,__c- -(*)/'(*)- - - - - - - - - - - \\- -
- - - - - - - (*)/'(*)-_-\_<, - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -\\ - -
- - - - - - - - - - - -(*)/'(*) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -\\ -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -\\ -
The joy is in the race; not the finish.
bu...@techbook.com. Operating on Beaverton TECHbooks' system, but not
as it's spokesperson.
--
_
,__c <o>
,__c _-\_<, |
- - - - - - - - _-\_<,- - ,__c- -(*)/'(*)- - - - - - - - - - - \\- -
Robbie Felix
>This seems to be the appropriate newsgroup.....
>
>My 13-year-old son responds to being sent to his room by cussing out
>his father, in front of his younger brother and mother. Non physical
>diplomatic approaches (grounding, light off, door closed) only seem
>to escalate the problem.
In my opinion disputes between any people deserve to be held
privately. If you send a kid to their room I assume there is a
disagreement, the minute it begins to escalate *you* as the mature
adult need to take it out of the presence of others. This is courteous
to everyone. Otherwise I hear something that sounds like someone
"losing face" in front of others. This is not helpful for either party
when trying to relax and tackle a problem (rather than each other).
There is nothing diplomatic about tyranny. Trying to approach things
to find reasonable solutions to solve problems is much more helpful
than punishing someone who doesn't see things your way.
>
>This dad decided to apply the hand of instruction to the seat of
>knowledge. The immediate result of this action was that mom headed
>for the police; but aborted the threat. Son snuck out of the house
A thirteen-year-old is too mature to see physical punishment as
anything other than what it is, the application of physical force
rather than attempting to solve a problem. Physical force *never*
improves a failing relationship between two people. Violence never
improves two people's ability to get along. Once violence occurs in a
relationship it forever alters the nature of the relationship.
If you are hitting an adolescent child you both need counseling.
>while I was in the shower (I didn't want to go to the slammer dirty),
>and spent an hour roaming the relatively safe streets around our house,
>for about an hour. Mom found him and took him for a drive and a chat.
>Neither would speak to me when they returned. The next day we got it
>resolved and things have returned to normal, including acceptance of a
>week of grounding (this had increased to a month during the heat of
>battle).
>
So you beat him into submission. Has this resolved your *real* problem
with him?
Do you now communicate? Are your needs or his getting met any better?
>It seemed at the time that I had a son who would openly defy his parents
>and was encouraged to continue that behavior by the non-punishing mom.
>I still feel that way. I'm not into beating my kid, and I only smacked
>his bare ass. I don't consider this to be child abuse.
The threat of violence is now resident in your relationship. You may not
have to hit him as much. Now he knows you will. Has this improved your
relationship? It scares me that you would speak of the non-punishing
mom in the third person. I doubt she is "encouraging his defiance".
She is probably scared of you,too.
>
>But I am convinced that retribution should be swift and meaningful. I
>don't want a situation to develop (truancy, drugs, run-away, aggression,
>or whatever) that will later require extensive (and perhaps unsuccessful
>counseling. I want my offspring to obey their parents and respect their
>authority.
>
The fact that you use the word "retribution" is a real key here. Your
home sounds like a war zone. You cannot afford to wait another day for
the therapy you are concerned about.
You seem to have declared war on your son and wife. The main place
children pick up hostility is *FROM THEIR PARENTS*.
You really need to ask yourself what you want from the relationships
you have with your family members. If blind obedience and respect are
all you care about you should join the military. Families are for love
and support. You get these in direct proportion to your investment.
John Altinbay
-
- My 13-year-old son responds to being sent to his room by cussing out
- his father, in front of his younger brother and mother. Non physical
- diplomatic approaches (grounding, light off, door closed) only seem
- to escalate the problem.
-
- This dad decided to apply the hand of instruction to the seat of
- knowledge.
Here we go again.
[some consequent events deleted]
-
- It seemed at the time that I had a son who would openly defy his parents
- and was encouraged to continue that behavior by the non-punishing mom.
- I still feel that way. I'm not into beating my kid, and I only smacked
- his bare ass. I don't consider this to be child abuse.
-
I'm sure you don't. Those who do it never do. But it's abuse just the
same.
- But I am convinced that retribution should be swift and meaningful.
Interesting choice of words: "retribution".
- I don't want a situation to develop (truancy, drugs, run-away, aggression,
- or whatever) that will later require extensive (and perhaps unsuccessful
- counseling.
Children who are thus abused have to go into "extensive (and perhaps
unsuccessful) counselling".
- I want my offspring to obey their parents and respect their authority.
-
No doubt. I hope you will be able to find a way of doing this without
hitting your child.
- I would welcome some feedback on this.
This is my feedback. I'm sorry my tone is harsh, but I really get
angry at this. I am really sincere in hoping that you find a better
solution. I think your post may be a call for better suggestions,
and I'm sure the people here can give you that information.
Good luck.
--
MMIH ============================================= alti...@alc.com
My existence led by confusion boats
Mutiny from stern to bough
alti...@netcom.com =================================== - Bob Dylan
dan abel
> This seems to be the appropriate newsgroup.....
>
> My 13-year-old son responds to being sent to his room by cussing out
> his father, in front of his younger brother and mother. Non physical
> diplomatic approaches (grounding, light off, door closed) only seem
> to escalate the problem.
>
> counseling. I want my offspring to obey their parents and respect their
> authority.
>
have lost the battle. To weird out further, losing the battle is not
losing the war. I should know, since I have resorted to physical
violence many times. I have also witnessed my wife "losing" it.
Violence is a sad fact of life. If violence is not OK, then why does
almost every country have a standing and/or reserve army? Why are
there so many police? When you punish your child physically, you
send the strong message that people can only be pushed so far. It is
not hard to tell when people are getting angry, and most of the time
a child knows what they are doing when they push a parent to the
point of violence.
One thing I find hard to accept is that my 13 YO will no longer obey
his parents and respect our authority, unless he already wanted to do
what we said, or unless he knows that we are willing to fight for it
(usually not physically). I am real tired of fighting (he loves to
argue), so I find that I am consciously suppressing urges to tell him
what to do. It's his life, and I need to let *him* live it, even if
it means learning from mistakes.
I don't have a lot of suggestions. One that works for me is thinking
that people grow up in phases. Some phases are good, some are bad,
and some are horrible. The ones that are unpleasant for the parents
generally have to do with "testing" and independence. A 2 YO can be
horrible, and yet a few months later the same child can be very
pleasant to be with. Almost all parents I have heard from say that
the teenage years are troublesome for a long time, but the pleasant
times afterwards will last literally for decades, if the parents last
out. The other suggestion is to try and remember what it was like
when *we* were teens, and try and put yourself in your teen's place.
You may end up taking the same actions in punishment, but
understanding why your teen is getting so angry may help you from
"losing" it. The other thing to realize is that your son has you by
the balls and there is nothing you can do about it. He can act like
a kid because he is one. If he draws you down to his level then you
have "lost the battle" even though he "loses the war". Making the
assumption that my son has done something that calls for a one-day
grounding, many is the time that I have heard the following:
wife: "You're grounded!"
son: "You asshole!"
w: You're grounded all day tommorow too!"
s: "Up your butt and around the corner"
w: "And the next day, too!"
s: more obscenity, and maybe a threat to destroy something
w: grounding for a week
s: "So what are you going to do, ground me for life? I don't care!"
I'm just picking on my wife because she isn't here to defend herself,
I do the same thing. The key is to remember that the day's grounding
will be an effective punishment once everyone has cooled down,
whereas the week's grounding is an empty threat brought upon by anger.
I would also suggest talking to your wife about ground rules for
punishment. It's hard enough dealing with a teen without having to
present a divided front. Ask your wife what *she* would have done.
It's easy enough to say that someone else should *not* do something
or other, but harder to provide realistic advice about what to *do*.
Let us know what happens, please.
Ray Steiner
>
> My 13-year-old son responds to being sent to his room by cussing out
> his father, in front of his younger brother and mother. Non physical
> diplomatic approaches (grounding, light off, door closed) only seem
> to escalate the problem.
>
> This dad decided to apply the hand of instruction to the seat of
I think that spanking the lad was entirely inappropriate in this
case. Remember, at 13 the boy is starting to feel his oats a bit.
This kind of defiance seems part and parcel of being a teenager!
Also, teenagers hate most being treated like little children
and spanking them is the worst possible insult. I think you
should have taken the boy aside and talked to him to try
to find out what was bugging him. Beating him is never the
answer to improving a relationship.
Bob Schaugaard
>
> My 13-year-old son responds to being sent to his room by cussing out
> his father, in front of his younger brother and mother. Non physical
> diplomatic approaches (grounding, light off, door closed) only seem
> to escalate the problem.
>
.
> This dad decided to apply the hand of instruction to the seat of
> knowledge. The immediate result of this action was that mom headed
> for the police; but aborted the threat. Son snuck out of the house
>
> -burt
First we (my wife and I) want to say we sympathize with you. When kids
get that old it's hard to know what to do. While a swat on the bottom
isn't abuse it won't do any good. In fact it makes them angry and more
rebellious. When things start to get out of hand it might work to back
off and let things calm down, then talk to him about the problem. It
may feel like he is getting away with something but you won't get any-
where until things calm down. That doesn't mean your son won't have to
face the consequences of his actions.
The worst problem here is that you and your wife don't agree on what action
to take. The first thing you need to do is get together with her and decide
what to do the next time something like this happens. You need to present a
united front. If your son can get you in trouble it makes him feel powerful.
If your son can get pity and attention from his mom that is rewarding to him.
No discipline will ever work unless you support each other.
Good luck and I hope things work out for you.
Bob and Shirley Schaugaard
-bo...@hal.com
Judy Leedom Tyrer
bottom of abusing him is way out of line. You might not believe in corporal
punishment, but there are enough professional opinions on both sides of this
issue that we must accept those whose views differ from ours. A belt, a hair
brush, etc. are crossing the line. But please give people the curtesy of
allowing them to follow what, until very, very recently has been standard
acceptable parenting behavior. It also demeans the idea of REAL child abuse
and that is a crime. So let's not be childish ourselves and let's try to
respect one another. Enough said.
On the topic of the home situation, I think there are two very different
issues here. First is the marital relationship and this sounds like it is in
dire jeopardy and should be attended to asap. It is one thing to disagree
with one's spouse about parenting practices, but quite another to start calling
the cops, accusing one another of causing the disruptive behavior of the child,
etc. Your son has ENORMOUS power. He can destroy your marriage. You must
take that power away from him and do it now. Whatever is happening, parents
must make a united front during turmoil and discuss their differences later
and away from the child.
The second problem is of a rebellious child. You don't like cussing. Your
child cusses. We have the same problem with our almost 4 YO. And in my
opinion the behavior is exactly the same. Both children are pushing the limits,
pushing their parent's buttons, and just seeing how far they can go. The
parents must set the limits. I think it is the same at 13 as at 4.
First, you and your wife must decide what you agree is unacceptable behavior.
If cussing bothers one of you, but not the other, then some compromise is in
order. You've been married at least 13 years. I'm sure you've compromised
lots. So let's say you agree that you will not tolerate your children cussing.
The following advice is from the book "The Difficult Child" and I think is an
excellent way to parent. We are trying it and finding that it really helps
change already set patterns of behavior.
During a calm period you sit your child down and say, "We've decided that
we are no longer going tolerate your cussing at us. And we feel that the
following consequences should be enforced for cussing." Those consequences
could be anything from "you will be spanked" to "you lose your allowance for
a week". Decide something reasonable and make sure you have explained the
rules.
THen, the first time the child breaks this rule, one he is fully aware of and
whose consequences have been determined, you remind him of the rule. One
warning. If the behavior continues, you enforce the consequences. Thus, the
consequences must be those which you are capable of enforcing. Maybe you can't
successfully ground your rebellious teen-ager. You can certainly remove his
hide his stereo, deny him his allowance, remove his phone priveleges, etc.
I had a friend whose parents insisted she hang up her clothes. She didn't.
So they took all her clothes away except two dresses. She got to choose which
two dresses she had. This meant she not only had to hang up the dresses, she
had to wash them each day. After a week of good behavior she got two more
dresses. You can bet she learned to take care of her clothing.
The key here is that you are making decision NOT during the heat of the moment
when everyone is angry and buttons are pushed and emotions are running rampant.
But you are making decisions and discussing rules when things are calm and
you can be rational. And you aren't suddenly changing rules by having had
enough of something that the child has been getting away with forever. And you,
as parents, are presenting a united front so your child loses his power over
your relationship.
"The Difficult Child" suggests that each partner make a list of those behaviors
they find they just cannot live with. Then you come together and agree on a
small number, maybe six. Then, when something happens, you say "Is this on the
list of unacceptable behaviors?" If not, then you let it go. And all those
things on the list are explained to the child and consequences set.
--
I finally decided what I want on my tombstone...
"Here lies Judy Leedom Tyrer. The world will never see another like
her. We are undecided on whether this is a good thing or a bad thing."
Dan Blomquist
rfe...@netcom.com (Robbie Felix) writes:
>In article <1992Mar30.2...@techbook.com> bu...@techbook.com (Burt Keeble) writes:
>>This seems to be the appropriate newsgroup.....
>>
>>his father, in front of his younger brother and mother. Non physical
>>diplomatic approaches (grounding, light off, door closed) only seem
>>to escalate the problem.
>
>privately.
There is no disgrace if discipline is held in private.. You sound
like the type of person who objects to public viewing of a
hanging/electic chair, or whatever. I would not go out of my way to
watch somebody die in the electric chair, but I do not think it
needs to be private - the person being punished did not think about
the privacy of the person he committed a crime against.......
I just discovered something resently which may help my children
learn a little faster to obey their parents and respect authority.
Discipline in the presence of the person who was wronged will make
the disciplinee think a little quicker the next time he thinks about
the wrong possibly to happen. (sorry sentence a little disjointed,
but hope you get what i am driving at.)
>There is nothing diplomatic about tyranny. Trying to approach things
>to find reasonable solutions to solve problems is much more helpful
>than punishing someone who doesn't see things your way.
Discipline in not tyranny, nor is there anything wrong it. There is
something wrong with "hitting in anger".
>>
>>This dad decided to apply the hand of instruction to the seat of
>>knowledge. The immediate result of this action was that mom headed
>>for the police; but aborted the threat. Son snuck out of the house
>
>A thirteen-year-old is too mature to see physical punishment as
>anything other than what it is, the application of physical force
>rather than attempting to solve a problem.
I don't say this as normal conversation but ...... BULL!!! Sounds
to me like it is past the time for conversation.
>Physical force *never*
>improves a failing relationship between two people. Violence never
>improves two people's ability to get along. Once violence occurs in a
>relationship it forever alters the nature of the relationship.
There is a difference between what you call physical force or
violence and discipline.
>
>If you are hitting an adolescent child you both need counseling.
AGAIN - he was not hitting, he was spanking - got that SPANKING.
>So you beat him into submission. Has this resolved your *real* problem
>with him?
Read previous statement again --- SPANKING....
>Do you now communicate? Are your needs or his getting met any better?
Communication can now be on a par with what will happen if the 13 yo
does not do what is correct. God gave parents children to care for
and to raise to be responsible adults. I do not know of any studies
so I am "shooting from the hip" and gut-feelings, but I would
venture to guess that kids who rebel at home also have problems when
the face the world without the protection of their parents.
>
>The threat of violence is now resident in your relationship. You may not
>.........
>
There you go again - it is not violence....
>>
>>But I am convinced that retribution should be swift and meaningful. I
>>don't want a situation to develop (truancy, drugs, run-away, aggression,
>>or whatever) that will later require extensive (and perhaps unsuccessful
>>counseling. I want my offspring to obey their parents and respect their
>>authority.
>>
>The fact that you use the word "retribution" is a real key here. Your
>home sounds like a war zone. You cannot afford to wait another day for
>the therapy you are concerned about.
Retribution is in the son realizing his error and appologizing for
what he did, and changing his ways.
>You seem to have declared war on your son and wife. The main place
Nobody declares war when you discipline...
Dan Blomquist
alti...@alc.com (John Altinbay) writes:
>
>Here we go again.
>
right on - here we go again.
>-
>- . I'm not into beating my kid, and I only smacked
>- his bare ass. I don't consider this to be child abuse.
>-
>
>I'm sure you don't. Those who do it never do. But it's abuse just the
>same.
Why is this abuse (spanking)? I have never heard this explained.
>Children who are thus abused have to go into "extensive (and perhaps
>unsuccessful) counselling".
Ok where is this taught?
>- I want my offspring to obey their parents and respect their authority.
>-
>
>No doubt. I hope you will be able to find a way of doing this without
>hitting your child.
Hitting was not done, SPANKING was....
>
>This is my feedback. I'm sorry my tone is harsh, but I really get
>angry at this. I am really sincere in hoping that you find a better
>solution. I think your post may be a call for better suggestions,
>and I'm sure the people here can give you that information.
>
Yes - and what do you do, and what are your results - do have or
have you had kids...??
Robbie Felix
>In article <+xgjnwg...@netcom.com>,
>rfe...@netcom.com (Robbie Felix) writes:
>>In article <1992Mar30.2...@techbook.com> bu...@techbook.com (Burt Keeble) writes:
>>>This seems to be the appropriate newsgroup.....
>>>
>>>My 13-year-old son responds to being sent to his room by cussing out
>>>his father, in front of his younger brother and mother. Non physical
>>>diplomatic approaches (grounding, light off, door closed) only seem
>>>to escalate the problem.
>>
>>In my opinion disputes between any people deserve to be held
>>privately.
>
>There is no disgrace if discipline is held in private.. You sound
They were having a dispute in front of the whole family. If I have a
dispute with my boss, my employee, my daughter or my husband, it
belongs in private. PERIOD. I feel everyone can better solve problems
when the people directly involved are present. No dispute needs an
audience.
>I just discovered something resently which may help my children
>learn a little faster to obey their parents and respect authority.
>Discipline in the presence of the person who was wronged will make
>the disciplinee think a little quicker the next time he thinks about
>the wrong possibly to happen. (sorry sentence a little disjointed,
>but hope you get what i am driving at.)
Yes, I get it. If you can scare the other children into toeing the
line by making examples of one child, you will have more control.
I prefer to have my relationships based on mutual support and respect.
I am not interested in controlling people by instilling fear of
violence into them.
>
>
>
>>>
>>>This dad decided to apply the hand of instruction to the seat of
>>>knowledge. The immediate result of this action was that mom headed
>>>for the police; but aborted the threat. Son snuck out of the house
>>
>>A thirteen-year-old is too mature to see physical punishment as
>>anything other than what it is, the application of physical force
>>rather than attempting to solve a problem.
>
>I don't say this as normal conversation but ...... BULL!!! Sounds
>to me like it is past the time for conversation.
You say this AND YOU DON"T EVEN KNOW WHAT THEIR DISPUTE IS ABOUT!
When you say "past the time for conversation" all you know is the kid
was cussing and talking back, you don't have a clue what the father
said or did. YOU HAVR ONE SIDE and you have assumed the kid is dead
wrong!
Violence is physical force used to inflict pain. SPANKING IS VIOLENCE.
It is used to inflict physical or mental pain. You don't *HIT* your
co-workers do you? How about your wife? How about your boss? WHY IN
THE WORLD would you hit someone YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO LOVE? If you can
solve problems with other people without hitting them, WHY the hell
can't you do it with your children? A spanking teaches a two year old
to keep his fingers away from the electric sockets. It is only useful
for someone who doesn't understand words.
>>
>>If you are hitting an adolescent child you both need counseling.
>
>AGAIN - he was not hitting, he was spanking - got that SPANKING.
Get a dictionary. Spanking is hitting. When you spank someone you have
to hit 'em don't you? Or do you have some new method?
>
>>So you beat him into submission. Has this resolved your *real* problem
>>with him?
>
>Read previous statement again --- SPANKING....
>
>>Do you now communicate? Are your needs or his getting met any better?
>
>Communication can now be on a par with what will happen if the 13 yo
>does not do what is correct. God gave parents children to care for
>and to raise to be responsible adults. I do not know of any studies
Yes, I am sure GOD wants you to hit your children. He is that loving
guy, right? The one who died for the world, right? He definitely
wants you to use violence to bully your kids. Don't believe any of
that propaganda about him being gentle, loving or kind. It is probably
a plot by secular humanists.
>so I am "shooting from the hip" and gut-feelings, but I would
>venture to guess that kids who rebel at home also have problems when
>the face the world without the protection of their parents.
>Kids who learn to SOLVE PROBLEMS go out in the world with useful
tools for living. Kids who learn that violence/hitting people/
dominating others is the way relationships are built, DO NOT go into
the world equipped to be successful at life.
>There you go again - it is not violence....
>
>>>
>>>
>>The fact that you use the word "retribution" is a real key here. Your
>>home sounds like a war zone. You cannot afford to wait another day for
>>the therapy you are concerned about.
>
>Retribution is in the son realizing his error and appologizing for
>what he did, and changing his ways.
Sorry, YOU DO NOT know the definition of the word retribution.
Retribution is what we do when we are attacked by Libyan terrorists
and we retaliate. It is an act of war.>
The guy is using terms reserved for war to describe his relationship
with his family.
Violence begets violence. What will you do when your child is bigger
than you?
rf
Robbie Felix
>alti...@alc.com (John Altinbay) writes:
>>
>>Here we go again.
>>
>right on - here we go again.
>>-
>>- . I'm not into beating my kid, and I only smacked
>>- his bare ass. I don't consider this to be child abuse.
I ABSOLUTELY can't imagine WHY you would further humiliate a 13 year
-old by pulling his pants down to boot!
You hit him, you humiliate him and then wonder why he is angry and
cusses at you.
I had a father like this. I speak to him once a year. My sister once
every five. I hope the two of you end up with children who grow up
and give a shit about you. It is hard to imagine why anyone would
maintain a relationship with someone who treats them this way.
We both left home by the age of 16. We couldn't take it anymore.
I believe in the golden rule. If you treat people how you want to be
treated (especially teenagers) you will end up with a satisfying
relationship.
How would you feel if someone exposed your private body parts and
then hit you in front of others to show their dominance?
Not good, I guess.
Will your children want to have a relationship with you when they grow
up and have a choice? If you care you will seek counseling for them
and for you.
John Altinbay
>
>I just discovered something resently which may help my children
>learn a little faster to obey their parents and respect authority.
>Discipline in the presence of the person who was wronged will make
>the disciplinee think a little quicker the next time he thinks about
>the wrong possibly to happen. (sorry sentence a little disjointed,
>but hope you get what i am driving at.)
>
Yes, I do. You want to shame the child in front of other people.
Since you don't make any distinction between discipline and
hitting a child, it makes this even more galling.
>
>>There is nothing diplomatic about tyranny. Trying to approach things
>>to find reasonable solutions to solve problems is much more helpful
>>than punishing someone who doesn't see things your way.
>
>Discipline in not tyranny, nor is there anything wrong it. There is
>something wrong with "hitting in anger".
>
There is nothing wrong with discipline, but *you* are talking
about hitting children.
>
>>relationship it forever alters the nature of the relationship.
>
>There is a difference between what you call physical force or
>violence and discipline.
>
Indeed, there is a difference between discipline and hitting
children. To you, it's the same thing. You are saying that
if you "only spank" a kid, it's not violence. I violently
disagree.
>>
>>If you are hitting an adolescent child you both need counseling.
>
>AGAIN - he was not hitting, he was spanking - got that SPANKING.
>
When you spank a child, you do not hit him/her? That;s quaint.
>>So you beat him into submission. Has this resolved your *real* problem
>>with him?
>
>Read previous statement again --- SPANKING....
>
Yes. Spanking. Hitting. Physical force.
I read it correctly, thank you.
>>Do you now communicate? Are your needs or his getting met any better?
>
>Communication can now be on a par with what will happen if the 13 yo
>does not do what is correct.
Oh, reaaaly. Pray tell how you are going to communicate with a
child that you have hit. On your own terms, no doubt, as in
"we've now beat somew sense into him."
> God gave parents children to care for
>and to raise to be responsible adults.
Yes. It's a great responsibility.
> I do not know of any studies
>so I am "shooting from the hip" and gut-feelings, but I would
>venture to guess that kids who rebel at home also have problems when
>the face the world without the protection of their parents.
>
They may indeed have such problems. By "protection of their
parents", you mean hitting?
>>
>>The threat of violence is now resident in your relationship. You may not
>>.........
>>
>There you go again - it is not violence....
>
Yes, it is.
>
>
>>You seem to have declared war on your son and wife. The main place
>
>Nobody declares war when you discipline...
That's a true statement. But discipline is not the same as hitting children.
--
alti...@alc.com -- John Altinbay -- MIH -- alti...@netcom.com
===============================================================
There's a spirit that guides me, a light that shines for me
My life is worth the living, I don't need to see the end.
John Altinbay
>alti...@alc.com (John Altinbay) writes:
>>
>>-
>>- . I'm not into beating my kid, and I only smacked
>>- his bare ass. I don't consider this to be child abuse.
>>-
>>
>>I'm sure you don't. Those who do it never do. But it's abuse just the
>>same.
>
>Why is this abuse (spanking)? I have never heard this explained.
>
It's abuse because you are physically and emotionally hurting the child.
Why is that so hard to understand?
>>Children who are thus abused have to go into "extensive (and perhaps
>>unsuccessful) counselling".
>
>Ok where is this taught?
>
You want an example? Read on.
>
>>- I want my offspring to obey their parents and respect their authority.
>>-
>>
>>No doubt. I hope you will be able to find a way of doing this without
>>hitting your child.
>
>Hitting was not done, SPANKING was....
>>
How do you spank them without hitting them? Or is spanking not the act
of a hand or other instrument meeting a part of the child with
velocity, usually accompanied by sufficient force to cause discomfort.
>>This is my feedback. I'm sorry my tone is harsh, but I really get
>>angry at this. I am really sincere in hoping that you find a better
>>solution. I think your post may be a call for better suggestions,
>>and I'm sure the people here can give you that information.
>>
>Yes - and what do you do, and what are your results - do have or
>have you had kids...??
>
No, I do not have and I have not had kids. Spanking advocates
always ask this as though becoming parents magically makes
them experts. I have, however, been a child. Yes, I was
spanked. I did not get a wow revelation that this was indeed
incredible discipline and that I have seen the error of my ways.
I did not gain respect for the party who did it. Instead, I
became angry. I became resentful. I came to despise the
spankers. I was *hurt* very much emotionally. Those who
did it did not attempt conversation before or after. They
were only interested in controlling me. In that, they were
successful. Out of fear, I did mostly what I thought was
wanted of me, and I came to be afraid that I would be hit
whenever they were angry at me. My values were not learned
from the hitting. They were learned despite them. The patterns
I learned partially from this abuse were factors in my divorce.
I have been in therapy, and I will be back to it in order to
get past the abuse. Those who know me may not believe this,
but I used to be very shy and scared of approaching people.
When I was a snmall boy, I was open and gregarious. The
beautiful outgoing boy was literally beaten out of me.
David Albert
>>In my opinion disputes between any people deserve to be held
>>privately.
>
>There is no disgrace if discipline is held in private..
I read this sentence and assumed that the author was agreeing with
the previous sentence. When I realized he wasn't I was shocked and
outraged. Exactly! There is no disgrace if discipline is held in
private. Disgracing a child is a horrible, mean and degrading thing
to do and it reflects as badly on the perpetrator as on the victim.
Nor does it have a positive effect. In my 15+ years working with
children I have seen children who have done wrong things treated
respectfully, and I have seen them disgraced, but never have I seen
disgrace produce a happier or better-behaved child. Indeed, in most
cases in which I was present throughout, I have seen the child take
his resentment out on someone else, or openly mock the disgracer behind
his/her back as soon as possible. I have never seen such reactions in
cases where a child was treated respectfully.
>You sound like the type of person who objects to public viewing of a
>hanging/electic chair, or whatever.
In fact, as an opponent of the death penalty, I am in favor of public
viewing of executions. More than that -- I think that every public
execution in this country should be mandatory viewing for every voting
citizen. I happen to think that the horror of watching such executions
is likely to cause most people to think twice about approving them.
>Discipline in not tyranny, nor is there anything wrong it. There is
>something wrong with "hitting in anger".
Except for the fact that we probably disagree on the meanings of most
of the words in this sentence, I happen to agree with you.
>There is a difference between what you call physical force or
>violence and discipline.
There certainly is!
>AGAIN - he was not hitting, he was spanking - got that SPANKING.
How can you possibly spank someone without hitting them?
----------------------------------------------__------------------------------
David Albert | / ) /
UUCP: ...!harvard!albert | / / __. , ___o __/
INTERNET: alb...@harvard.edu |/__/__(_/|__\/ <___(_/_
Robbie Felix
>In article <1992Apr1.2...@morrow.stanford.edu> AS....@forsythe.stanford.edu (Dan Blomquist) writes:
>>In article <+xgjnwg...@netcom.com>,
>>
>>I just discovered something resently which may help my children
freudian,right?
>>learn a little faster to obey their parents and respect authority.
>>Discipline in the presence of the person who was wronged will make
>>the disciplinee think a little quicker the next time he thinks about
>>the wrong possibly to happen. (sorry sentence a little disjointed,
>>but hope you get what i am driving at.)
What if your BOSS did this? What if he chastized you in front of
the whole office to remind you not to screw up ever again. I bet you
would love this, now wouldn't you? I bet you would QUIT if he did it a
few times. Your kid doesn't have the option to quit. Furthermore
he/she probably loves you. He loses a piece of self-esteem everytime
you show him and others how little you really care about his feelings
by humiliating him this way.
I haven't hit my daughter since she was two and played with the
electric sockets. She gets disciplined. She is fined for stuff
failing to do household chores. She doesn't get to join in activities
with her friends if she hasn't done her homework, etc. If she has a
grade problem we get her a tutor and insist she cut down on
extracurriculur activities.
This is discipline. There is no punishment orientation. We assume she
is a good,thoughtful,caring person that wants to do her best. She
sees us as caring people who want to help. WE do not humiliate,
hit or shame her.
>
>>
>>>
>>>If you are hitting an adolescent child you both need counseling.
>
>Yes. Spanking. Hitting. Physical force.
>I read it correctly, thank you.
>
>>>
>>There you go again - it is not violence....
>
>Yes, it is.
>
>>>You seem to have declared war on your son and wife. The main place
>>
>>Nobody declares war when you discipline...
>That's a true statement. But discipline is not the same as hitting children.
>
Anyone who believes that hitting another person is an act of love is
in need of therapy. I believe the God you mentioned spoke about love
in his book. I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN, but read this:
Love is very patient and kind, never jealous or envious, boastful or
proud, never haughty,selfish or RUDE. Love does not demand it's own
way. It is not irritable or touchy. It does not hold grudges andwill
hardly ever notice when others do it wrong. It is NEVER glad about
injustice,but rejoices whenever truth wins out. If you love someone
you will be loyal to him no matter what the cost.You will always
believe in him,always expect the best of him, and always stand your
ground in defending him. 1 Corinthinians 13
Since you brought GOD into it, why don't you think about how your
relationship to your child measures up to this.
rf
Dan Blomquist
ste...@bgsu.edu (Ray Steiner) writes:
>In article <1992Mar30.2...@techbook.com>, bu...@techbook.com (Burt Keeble) writes:
>>
>> This dad decided to apply the hand of instruction to the seat of
>I think that spanking the lad was entirely inappropriate in this
>case. Remember, at 13 the boy is starting to feel his oats a bit.
13 may be a little old, but he may also need to learn "how to feel
his oats" and when...
>Also, teenagers hate most being treated like little children
>and spanking them is the worst possible insult.
"Insult", maybe - maybe that is what it takes to make a change!
> Beating him is never the answer to improving a relationship.
I don't see any beating here!
Dan
Robbie Felix
>In article <97...@bgsuvax.bgsu.edu>,
>ste...@bgsu.edu (Ray Steiner) writes:
>>In article <1992Mar30.2...@techbook.com>, bu...@techbook.com (Burt Keeble) writes:
>>>
>>> This dad decided to apply the hand of instruction to the seat of
>>> knowledge....
>>I think that spanking the lad was entirely inappropriate in this
>>case. Remember, at 13 the boy is starting to feel his oats a bit.
>
>13 may be a little old, but he may also need to learn "how to feel
>his oats" and when...
>
>>Also, teenagers hate most being treated like little children
>>and spanking them is the worst possible insult.
>
>"Insult", maybe - maybe that is what it takes to make a change!
Yeah Dan, this is what kids need to be taught will work when
they are trying to solve their life problems. They should try insults.
Insulting people is A GREAT WAY to deal with others.
Is it our job as parents to teach children to solve problems? to get
along with others? If you think you are teaching your child to respect
others (you SAID you were earlier) by insulting him, I would say
your example of adult behavior is pretty contradictory. But then
"DO AS I SAY, NOT AS I DO" works if you are willing to threaten
to hit a kid to enforce it.
It is amazing that you don't see that he learns twenty times more from
your example than from your words. You advocate hitting him
(spanking), publicly humiliating him (spanking him in public),
and now insulting him. I am sure it is clear to him how little respect
you have for the needs and feelings of others. You say one thing and
do another. You demand respect but you don't do it.
Does it make you want to change when someone insults you? Most people
find that being insulted makes them extremely unwilling to listen to
the person who has insulted them. Most people become extremely
alienated from someone who repeatedly insults him/her.
It depends what you want from your family. If you want a
loving,supportive environment where people pull together and help each
other through the challenges of life, you have to behave like a
loving,supportive person who helps others through the challenges of
life.
If you are insulting and abusive, your family will be,too.
It boggles my mind that you would suggest that insults and spanking
are good ways to rear children. I shudder to think that other people
are treating their
The bible (you brought GOD into this) says "You reap what you sow".
You are sowing violence, discord, hostility, disrespect with your
children. And I bet you will be surprised when you reap the crop that
is borne of these seeds.
I hope they speak to you when they grow up. I hope they call you more
often than once every 5 years. I hope that they spend *the other* 50
years of their lives thinking you are a swell guy who really showed
your love and support for them. I hope you realize what a wonderful
thing a loving family can be.
Dan, it is a very lonely life without a loving supportive family.
I would protect mine with my life. You should really think about the
way you express your love to the people you care most about. If you
alienate them to much,you may never get them back.
Duane Hentrich
|>In article <1992Apr1.2...@morrow.stanford.edu> (Dan Blomquist) writes:
|> >There is no disgrace if discipline is held in private.. You sound
|>
|> They were having a dispute in front of the whole family. If I have a
|> dispute with my boss, my employee, my daughter or my husband, it
|> belongs in private. PERIOD. I feel everyone can better solve problems
|> when the people directly involved are present. No dispute needs an
|> audience.
Actually I can think of many reasons why I would like witnesses. First,
I would want a unbiased witness to stand up for me against the outcries
of "abuse abuse" from people like you. Witnesses who have seen the
spanking can describe it in much more detail than someone who has only
heard the word spanking and decided, a priori, that it was abuse.
|> >I just discovered something resently which may help my children
|> >learn a little faster to obey their parents and respect authority.
|> >Discipline in the presence of the person who was wronged will make
|> >the disciplinee think a little quicker the next time he thinks about
|> >the wrong possibly to happen. (sorry sentence a little disjointed,
|> >but hope you get what i am driving at.)
|>
|> Yes, I get it. If you can scare the other children into toeing the
|> line by making examples of one child, you will have more control.
|> I prefer to have my relationships based on mutual support and respect.
|> I am not interested in controlling people by instilling fear of
|> violence into them.
When my son was a toddler he started pulling my beard at intervals. He was
unmindful of the pain inflicted by holding on to the hair and walking away.
Part of him thought Daddy's exclaimation of pain to be humorous. I tried
talking to him. I gently undid his hand from my face when he tried it. I
was a kind and gentle father and my face was hurting.
He pulled my beard again and I pulled his hair. He stopped dead in his
tracks and stared at me. His eyes were saying "That HURT!" I told him
"It hurts me the same when you pull my beard." He stopped that behavior.
Not because I caused him pain. But because he finally had a referent
he could use to know the outcome of an act(hair pulling). Kids understand
cause and effect when it is demonstrated through experience.
Teaching him to give good hugs was quite a different matter. Both, however,
are needed in a child.
|> >I don't say this as normal conversation but ...... BULL!!! Sounds
|> >to me like it is past the time for conversation.
|>
|> You say this AND YOU DON"T EVEN KNOW WHAT THEIR DISPUTE IS ABOUT!
|> When you say "past the time for conversation" all you know is the kid
|> was cussing and talking back, you don't have a clue what the father
|> said or did. YOU HAVR ONE SIDE and you have assumed the kid is dead
|> wrong!
And you assume the parent is an abuser. So?
|> Violence is physical force used to inflict pain. SPANKING IS VIOLENCE.
|> It is used to inflict physical or mental pain. You don't *HIT* your
|> co-workers do you? How about your wife? How about your boss? WHY IN
|> THE WORLD would you hit someone YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO LOVE?
My dictionaries definition of violence does not mention pain. It mentions
damage and injury. Sometimes a blow is administered in order to attract
or get someones attention. In computer babble, unanticipated acute pain
is a non-maskable interrupt. Everything halts and the person experiencing
the pain looks for its source. Mission accomplished. No damage. And
sometime a pinch will do rather nicely.
In this world hitting is part of the lesson plan, sometimes. And their
teaching can be done with love and understanding.
|> If you can
|> solve problems with other people without hitting them, WHY the hell
|> can't you do it with your children? A spanking teaches a two year old
|> to keep his fingers away from the electric sockets. It is only useful
|> for someone who doesn't understand words.
That you cannot see the application of it is obvious. But the judicious
application of pain can be instructive to anything that is alive.
Even to those of us who know what a word means rather than what we want
it to mean.
|> >AGAIN - he was not hitting, he was spanking - got that SPANKING.
|>
|> Get a dictionary. Spanking is hitting. When you spank someone you have
|> to hit 'em don't you? Or do you have some new method?
spank v. to slap on the buttocks with an object or the open hand.
hit v. 1a to deal a blow : strike b. to come or cause to come against
forcefully 2. To have an adverse effect upon. (long list of
synonyms deleted because it doens't contain the word 'slap')
We are dealing with baggage. The baggage a word carries with it when
spoken or written. In all the entries for hit that apply to violent
behavior it is implied to be a hard or serious act. Damage and injury
await a 'hit'.
Spanking is not done to injure. Its effectiveness in many situations
is small but it is not morally bad/wrong.
|> >so I am "shooting from the hip" and gut-feelings, but I would
|> >venture to guess that kids who rebel at home also have problems when
|> >the face the world without the protection of their parents.
|>
|> >Kids who learn to SOLVE PROBLEMS go out in the world with useful
|> tools for living. Kids who learn that violence/hitting people/
|> dominating others is the way relationships are built, DO NOT go into
|> the world equipped to be successful at life.
Thank you for telling me how ill equipped I am. I never would have known.
|> >Retribution is in the son realizing his error and appologizing for
|> >what he did, and changing his ways.
|>
|> Sorry, YOU DO NOT know the definition of the word retribution.
|> Retribution is what we do when we are attacked by Libyan terrorists
|> and we retaliate. It is an act of war.>
|> The guy is using terms reserved for war to describe his relationship
|> with his family.
Odd, Webster's II New Riverside Dictionary doesn't mention war or the
like in its entry for retribution. But this shouldn't surprise us since
you seem to define things to coincide with your own world view rather
than consensus reality.
|> Violence begets violence. What will you do when your child is bigger
|> than you?
Teach him that size is not the final arbiter in a violent encounter.
If a child mature without the ability to handle violence when it occurs,
and in this world it will occur, he is not equipped to handle life
on his/her own.
--
d'baba Duane M. Hentrich ...!hplabs!oliveb!tymix!baba
ba...@Tymnet.Com
Warning: Expicit Thoughts
John Altinbay
- >unsuccessful) counselling".
-
- Ok where is this taught?
-
This question got me thinking - we are taught all manners of things
that are not appropriate. There are so many ways that children are
intimidated by the adults around them it's not funny. One example:
A lot of parents in my family's social group would attempt to control
their kids by scaring them through statements like "If you don't stop,
Dr. Altinbay will give you a huge shot." (My father is a respected
medical doctor.)
As we grow up with this and watch others "discipline" their children
with this, it's no wonder that we get to believe that this is normal
and the proper way of doing things. It is mandatory that we
question these things, look at the realities, and reject the things
that we are "taught".
Robbie Felix
>|>
>|> They were having a dispute in front of the whole family. If I have a
>|> dispute with my boss, my employee, my daughter or my husband, it
>|> belongs in private. PERIOD. I feel everyone can better solve problems
>|> when the people directly involved are present. No dispute needs an
>|> audience.
>
>Actually I can think of many reasons why I would like witnesses. First,
>I would want a unbiased witness to stand up for me against the outcries
>of "abuse abuse" from people like you. Witnesses who have seen the
>spanking can describe it in much more detail than someone who has only
>heard the word spanking and decided, a priori, that it was abuse.
The original poster was talking about having a *DISPUTE* with his son
with the entire family present. We were not talking about public
spankings at the time. HOWEVER, you may note that the original poster
said his wife wanted to call the police. You are absolutely right. It
is a damn good thing there was another adult present. If the wife felt
the police needed to be called I am glad there was a witness to intervene.
>|> Violence is physical force used to inflict pain. SPANKING IS VIOLENCE.
>|> It is used to inflict physical or mental pain. You don't *HIT* your
>|> co-workers do you? How about your wife? How about your boss? WHY IN
>|> THE WORLD would you hit someone YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO LOVE?
>
>My dictionaries definition of violence does not mention pain. It mentions
>damage and injury. Sometimes a blow is administered in order to attract
>or get someones attention. In computer babble, unanticipated acute pain
>is a non-maskable interrupt. Everything halts and the person experiencing
>the pain looks for its source. Mission accomplished. No damage. And
>sometime a pinch will do rather nicely.
The reason *MOST* adult humans do not pinch, hit or slap other adults
to get things done is because it just won't work. It is a lousy way to
create trust, to develop a loving relationship and to create mutually
agreeable solutions to problems. I doubt that you would pinch, hit or
slap anyone but children. What makes them deserving of your worst
behavior?
>In this world hitting is part of the lesson plan, sometimes. And their
>teaching can be done with love and understanding.
>
>|> If you can
>|> solve problems with other people without hitting them, WHY the hell
>|> can't you do it with your children? A spanking teaches a two year old
>|> to keep his fingers away from the electric sockets. It is only useful
>|> for someone who doesn't understand words.
>|> Get a dictionary. Spanking is hitting. When you spank someone you have
>|> to hit 'em don't you? Or do you have some new method?
>
>spank v. to slap on the buttocks with an object or the open hand.
>
>hit v. 1a to deal a blow : strike b. to come or cause to come against
> forcefully 2. To have an adverse effect upon. (long list of
> synonyms deleted because it doens't contain the word 'slap')
>
>We are dealing with baggage. The baggage a word carries with it when
>spoken or written. In all the entries for hit that apply to violent
>behavior it is implied to be a hard or serious act. Damage and injury
>await a 'hit'.
You are right about the baggage. I had welts, bruises and terror
everyday of my childhood. My father called his punishment "spanking".
Look at your own definition, it says clearly "to have an adverse
effect on". Is that what you want for your children? To have an
adverse effect on them?
>
>|> >so I am "shooting from the hip" and gut-feelings, but I would
>|> >venture to guess that kids who rebel at home also have problems when
>|> >the face the world without the protection of their parents.
Dan here told us on the 28th that he wished he could get his 13 year
old out of the house because the kid was bullying his other siblings
half his size. Dan couldn't stand the hostility, the noise, the
tension.
Where do kids learn to bully others?
Tell me that the kid has learned this from television, from school...
Dan reserves the right to hit his children. He suggest that the kid
needs an insult if it will straighten him out. Or a "spanking".
Dan's method works so well that he complains to us that he can't stand
the company of his bullying son.
When you reserve the right to hit,insult or shame your children, you
lose the priveledge of sharing a beautiful relationship with them
based on love and trust. It isn't only your loss. They lose the
priveledge,too.
>
>
>Odd, Webster's II New Riverside Dictionary doesn't mention war or the
>like in its entry for retribution. But this shouldn't surprise us since
>you seem to define things to coincide with your own world view rather
>than consensus reality.
My father used dictionary definitions,too. It is a good smoke screen
to play "definition" to keep people from having a real dialogue about
how painful it is when parents abuse their children.
>
>|> Violence begets violence. What will you do when your child is bigger
>|> than you?
>
>Teach him that size is not the final arbiter in a violent encounter.
You mean that you will still be stronger?tougher? more violent and
that you are just invincible? I see.
Robbie Felix
>>If a child mature without the ability to handle violence when it occurs,
>>and in this world it will occur, he is not equipped to handle life
>>on his/her own.
>>
>
our children. Ya know, maybe it's not such a bad idea. The NRA constantly
uses examples of underdogs who were no longer persecuted when they got
the right to bear arms .
What a thought. It is a sad thing to think that children need to learn
about violence at the hands of their parents, that anyone would even
suggest that violence at home better prepares them for the real world.
The violent world "out there" is filled with people who did learn
about violence at home. Violence is created by people who learn their
behavior at home.
John Altinbay
- In article <2hjj1+j...@netcom.com>, (Robbie Felix) writes:
- |>In article <1992Apr1.2...@morrow.stanford.edu> (Dan Blomquist) writes:
-
- Actually I can think of many reasons why I would like witnesses. First,
- I would want a unbiased witness to stand up for me against the outcries
- of "abuse abuse" from people like you. Witnesses who have seen the
- spanking can describe it in much more detail than someone who has only
- heard the word spanking and decided, a priori, that it was abuse.
-
This doesn't sound to me like you want an unbiased witness. You want
one that agrees with you that it's OK to hit children.
I love your last sentence. If you mean that spanking did not really
take place, we need to defer judgement. But if spanking took place,
there was abuse.
- |> >I don't say this as normal conversation but ...... BULL!!! Sounds
- |> >to me like it is past the time for conversation.
- |>
- |> You say this AND YOU DON"T EVEN KNOW WHAT THEIR DISPUTE IS ABOUT!
- |> When you say "past the time for conversation" all you know is the kid
- |> was cussing and talking back, you don't have a clue what the father
- |> said or did. YOU HAVR ONE SIDE and you have assumed the kid is dead
- |> wrong!
-
- And you assume the parent is an abuser. So?
-
Robbie says we only know one side of the dispute. He and I are
holding that spanking is wrong. It has been admitted that the spanking
took place. Your sentence above doesn't follow from anything.
-
- My dictionaries definition of violence does not mention pain. It mentions
- damage and injury. Sometimes a blow is administered in order to attract
- or get someones attention. In computer babble, unanticipated acute pain
- is a non-maskable interrupt. Everything halts and the person experiencing
- the pain looks for its source. Mission accomplished. No damage. And
- sometime a pinch will do rather nicely.
-
- In this world hitting is part of the lesson plan, sometimes. And their
- teaching can be done with love and understanding.
-
Wow. I'm so in awe of this that I can't find words to say.
I don't even know what you're getting at that violence doesn't
mean pain. You do acknowledge that pain is being administered
and state that pain is a useful tool for teaching kids lessons.
I find this horrible.
I do have a comment on the "In this world..." part, though.
Spanking, and even worse modes of hitting, has been taught for
too long a time as valid tools for child rearing. If that's
what you mean by your sentence, I agree that that is what is
still taught. We can't go by the old stuff. We have to get beyond
that, see that some things are wrong and counterproductive, and
stop doing the wrong things. "This is the way we were taught" and
"everybody does it this way" are not good proof that something is
correct.
[diatribe about word meanings ending with...]
- spank v. to slap on the buttocks with an object or the open hand.
-
- hit v. 1a to deal a blow : strike b. to come or cause to come against
- forcefully 2. To have an adverse effect upon. (long list of
- synonyms deleted because it doens't contain the word 'slap')
-
- We are dealing with baggage. The baggage a word carries with it when
- spoken or written. In all the entries for hit that apply to violent
- behavior it is implied to be a hard or serious act. Damage and injury
- await a 'hit'.
-
I know someone else started the bit about looking it up, but we are
dealing with real life here, not dictionary semantics. You have admitted
that spanking is done in order to inflict pain (which teaches, etc...).
Ergo, you are inflicting pain on a child. It is wrong.
- Spanking is not done to injure. Its effectiveness in many situations
- is small but it is not morally bad/wrong.
-
Oh, it doesn't cause any scarring or welts, so it's OK that it causes
pain, is that it?
- |> Violence begets violence. What will you do when your child is bigger
- |> than you?
-
- Teach him that size is not the final arbiter in a violent encounter.
- If a child mature without the ability to handle violence when it occurs,
- and in this world it will occur, he is not equipped to handle life
- on his/her own.
-
Well, then let's prepare our kids for all of the stuff they'll encounter
when they get out into the world. Maybe we'll hit them with our cars
so they'll be able to handle it when they get into accidents.
What's the point? If you want the children to be able to defend against
violent attacks, enroll them in self-defence classes.
I find that a real low blow (no, it was not intended, but I'm leaving
it in, anyway) - I'll hit them so they'll know about violence.
John Altinbay
take exception to the following.
In article <1992Apr01.2...@locus.com> ju...@locus.com (Judy Leedom Tyrer) writes:
- First, I think that accusing someone who applies his bare hand to his child's
- bottom of abusing him is way out of line. You might not believe in corporal
- punishment, but there are enough professional opinions on both sides of this
- issue that we must accept those whose views differ from ours. A belt, a hair
- brush, etc. are crossing the line. But please give people the curtesy of
- allowing them to follow what, until very, very recently has been standard
- acceptable parenting behavior. It also demeans the idea of REAL child abuse
- and that is a crime. So let's not be childish ourselves and let's try to
- respect one another. Enough said.
-
Judy, I have pointed out a couple of times that spanking has until very
recently been standard acceptable parenting behavior. I do understand
that this is why many people do it.
I hold my opinions of spanking very strongly for reasons, some of which
I have also disclosed. Calling me childish for attempting to change
behavior that I believe is wrong is not respectful of me. I'm sorry
if it bothers you, but I will not sit still while I see abuse being done.
I think I understand what you mean by demeaning the idea of "real child
abuse". Child abuse comes in many forms. There are a lot a things being
done to children, some a lot more physically and/or emotionally hurtful
than spanking. All of it needs to be stopped. I am not singling spanking
out to the exclusion of everything else. But I don't believe in neglecting
a part of it just because there's other parts to be addressed.
I like the approach you describe for discipline (other than the
reference to spanking, of course). I'm glad someone has suggested
an alternative.
Brian Harvey
>It is amazing that you don't see that he learns twenty times more from
>your example than from your words. You advocate hitting him
>(spanking), publicly humiliating him (spanking him in public),
>and now insulting him. I am sure it is clear to him how little respect
>you have for the needs and feelings of others. You say one thing and
>do another. You demand respect but you don't do it.
I agree with this, but I think that it applies just as well to the tone
of some of the (public!) postings in this thread as to spanking. I mean,
if you want someone to stop spanking his kid you won't achieve that by
calling him names in public and making him feel defensive.
A few other postings have made specific suggestions about what to do
INSTEAD of spanking. That's more constructive. But the original
poster (I've lost track of all the attributions here...) may feel that
the situation has deteriorated beyond the ability of those measures
to deal with it. In that case, I would recommend talking with someone
local about the particular situation. There are parent-help hotlines
staffed with people who can offer advice without being judgemental.
Try your local hospital, for example.
The phrase "child abuse" conjures up (all too real) horror stories about
parents whipping children, burning them, locking them in closets for
weeks at a time, and so on. It's not surprising that someone can spank
a child -- socially acceptable behavior in many communities -- and rightly
reject being lumped with extreme abusers like that.
I'm not saying spanking is good! My own father, now dead, was ordinarily
quite gentle with me when I was a child, except for two occasions on which
he lost his temper and spanked me. The trouble is, those are two of my
most vivid childhood memories; they are now the first thing that comes to
mind when I remember him. I think that's sad.
Duane Hentrich
I said:
|> >If a child mature without the ability to handle violence when it occurs,
|> >and in this world it will occur, he is not equipped to handle life
|> >on his/her own.
|> I guess if you follow this to it's logical conclusion we should arm
|> our children. Ya know, maybe it's not such a bad idea. The NRA constantly
|> uses examples of underdogs who were no longer persecuted when they got
|> the right to bear arms .
|>
|> What a thought. It is a sad thing to think that children need to learn
|> about violence at the hands of their parents, that anyone would even
|> suggest that violence at home better prepares them for the real world.
|>
|> The violent world "out there" is filled with people who did learn
|> about violence at home. Violence is created by people who learn their
|> behavior at home.
I've been chuckling all morning over the rash of posts by you, Robbie,
holding forth on the past and future of myself and my relationship with
my son and his future. I am impressed that you could determine so much
about me and my life from that one posting. ;^)
But I'll answer this one.
It would be a logical conclusion to teach a child basic gun safety and the
proper respect and use of weapons of all kinds. I view your assumption that
it is logical to arm our children to be a bad debating technique. At no
time did I state that children should be given the means to violently express
their imaturity.
Next, the phrase 'at the hands of their parents' is loaded. It's baggage
states that somehting bad happened to the children and the parents are
culpable. I am of the opinion that it is best for a child to learn about
EVERYTHING from his parents rather than the gutter, or the school of
hard knocks or what have you.
Teaching about vuiolence does not necessitate the inclusion of violence
in the homelife. Just like learning about famine, its causes and its cures,
does not require ones pantry to be bare until you die.
Is a sparrow hawk slashing a carrier pigeon out of the sky commiting
an act of violence. I say yes. Does the man a block from here at the
slaughter house commit an act of violence each time he drives a bolt into the
brain of a cow? I say yes. And anybody who eats of such meat as comes from
slaughter houses partakes of that violence.
You babble and preach as though you are safe and completely disassociated
from any violence. I don not believe this to be true.
Violence is inherent in any system that requires the consumption of life
to maintain life and where each life has a strong will to survive.
I prefer, and I would prefer that my son prefer, to look at things without
blinders and curtains hiding the truth. The food on my plate was brought
there by violence.
But this has little relevance to the subject of physical discipline.
Robbie, et. al., if you really want to know how I feel and act, read
and stop guessing you know me from what you read. You only serve up
your own prejudices.
Your restatement and twisting of my thoughts and intentions is childish
and ineffective, whatever its goal may be. That you can see a slippery
slope does not tie me to sliding in that direction. Suffice it to say
you are wrong about me, my philosophies, and my relationship with my son.
Dan Blomquist
rfe...@netcom.com (Robbie Felix) writes:
>In article <prjjtxb....@netcom.com> alti...@netcom.com (John Altinbay) writes:
>>>
>>>I just discovered something resently which may help my children
>>>learn a little faster to obey their parents and respect authority.
>>>Discipline in the presence of the person who was wronged will make
>>>the disciplinee think a little quicker the next time he thinks about
>>>the wrong possibly to happen. (sorry sentence a little disjointed,
>>>but hope you get what i am driving at.)
>
>the whole office to remind you not to screw up ever again. I bet you
>would love this, now wouldn't you? I bet you would QUIT if he did it a
>few times. Your kid doesn't have the option to quit. Furthermore
>he/she probably loves you. He loses a piece of self-esteem everytime
>you show him and others how little you really care about his feelings
>by humiliating him this way.
I keep reading that I said "the discipline should be done in
front of a crowd" - no where in the statement above do I say that.
"Discipline in front of the person wronged" - this gives the person
being disciplined an opportunity to ask forgiveness.
>
>I haven't hit my daughter since she was two and played with the
>electric sockets. She gets disciplined. She is fined for stuff
>failing to do household chores. She doesn't get to join in activities
>with her friends if she hasn't done her homework, etc. If she has a
>grade problem we get her a tutor and insist she cut down on
>extracurriculur activities.
I DO NOT see anything wrong with this type of discipline or action.
You are applying relative actions to the problem.
>
>This is discipline. There is no punishment orientation. We assume she
>is a good,thoughtful,caring person that wants to do her best. She
>sees us as caring people who want to help. WE do not humiliate,
>hit or shame her.
Part of the spanking process is also conversation, before and after,
loving (hugs) after to let him/her know that we still love them.
Explanation as to the wrong and how to "right" it. Discipline is
not just the spanking.
>>
>Anyone who believes that hitting another person is an act of love is
>in need of therapy. I believe the God you mentioned spoke about love
>in his book. I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN, but read this:
>
>Love is very patient and kind, never jealous or envious, boastful or
>proud, never haughty,selfish or RUDE. Love does not demand it's own
>way. It is not irritable or touchy. It does not hold grudges andwill
>hardly ever notice when others do it wrong. It is NEVER glad about
>injustice,but rejoices whenever truth wins out. If you love someone
>you will be loyal to him no matter what the cost.You will always
>believe in him,always expect the best of him, and always stand your
>ground in defending him. 1 Corinthinians 13
>
Well the above is close anyway - I have pretty much memorized
chapter 13 and try to live by it. But there are also other verses
in The Book which need to be applied also. IE: Prov 13:24
"He who spares his rod hates his son, But he who loves him
disciplines him promptly."
And there are many more but I will not bore you since you would not
want to read them. I will send a list to those who really want to
learn, and you give me a chance to get it together.. Discipline,
love, obeying, etc.
>Since you brought GOD into it, why don't you think about how your
>relationship to your child measures up to this.
>rf
Well I don't know ---- but when he says "I love you" before
going to bed, within a couple hours of being spanked, I don't feel
there is resentfulness in him or anger. "I love you" is not
something he has been taught to say before going to sleep either,
that comes from his heart.
How are you doing?
Dan Blomquist
rfe...@netcom.com (Robbie Felix) writes:
>>
>In response to Dan's quote here:
>
>>"Insult", maybe - maybe that is what it takes to make a change!
>
>Yeah Dan, this is what kids need to be taught will work when
>they are trying to solve their life problems. They should try insults.
>Insulting people is A GREAT WAY to deal with others.
>
>
than I did. I have two older children (boy and girl) who I think
will be ok, but
not from what I have done, but from what my wife has done. I did
not take the lead in our family, and I am publicly acknowledging
this to whomever reads this. There is a lot behind what I have to
say, but there are many out there who would take what I have to say
and go into other topics not related to this net, so I will not say
those things. If any are interested I might as time permits do it
by e-mail, but don't hold your breath.
We had another daughter who was becoming a lady at 14, after real
rough younger years, when she died of a rare complication.
We also have two younger boys who are turning around at this point
and learning as I do, what my responsibility in the family is.
Robbie - I would like to hear what your family life is and was.
You seem to have all the answers.
Dan
Dan Blomquist
b...@anarres.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Brian Harvey) writes:
>
>
>I'm not saying spanking is good! My own father, now dead, was ordinarily
>quite gentle with me when I was a child, except for two occasions on which
>he lost his temper and spanked me. The trouble is, those are two of my
>most vivid childhood memories; they are now the first thing that comes to
>mind when I remember him. I think that's sad.
I am sorry to hear this - and that is probably why most people
object to spanking, because it is used with anger and temper, and
that I do not condone.
Robbie Felix
>
>We also have two younger boys who are turning around at this point
>and learning as I do, what my responsibility in the family is.
>
>Robbie - I would like to hear what your family life is and was.
>You seem to have all the answers.
>
My family is wonderful, but it hasn't always been this way.
I have a soon-to-be 16 year old daughter. She didn't live with me for
a lot of her life, so our story is that we became friends for many
years before we lived together in her teenagerhood.
I am fortunate. My daughter is an awesome human. She is warm and
generous and kind. She gets good grades , has a lot of great extra
curricular activities. She is warm and affectionate toward myself and
my partner. She is a little moody at times ( I sure don't bug her
about it, I have my days too) but overall people compliment me a lot
on her attitude and the kind of person she is. ( I don't believe I
deserve any special credit, I say this to illustrate that others seem
to think she is as wondeful as I think she is).
My partner (soon to be husband) is everything I could ever hope for.
He is kind, caring, thoughtful and generous, He is warm and
affectionate and always behaves as a best friend would.
The three of us have been living together for a year.
I am incredibly happy and find a well of love and support from my
family. I consider this a haven, a refuge . It appears that we all
feel the same.
I have one way I treat all people. I treat my daughter and fiance as I
treat my clients, friends, associates etc. I can give you the formula.
If you like any part of it, use it, if not discard it al and best
wishes:
1. Cheer like crazy when people you care about have success in their
lives.
2. Be there to love, hug, listen and support when those you love fail.
3. SHare your experience, but let others decide how to solve their own
problems. If they choose to try something other than your way, don't
criticize, everyone makes mistakes. Never say "I told you so".
4. Live every day as though it were your last. Tell the people that you
love that you love them often. Buy them flowers, special treats. Leave
love notes ( Yes, I buy my daughter cards, flowers and leave her
special treats a lot). Never stifle the impulse to show love.
5. Never criticize, belittle, humiliate or otherwise hurt
people that you love. Treat everyone as you would have a small child
treat them. Say "please" and "thank you", share, hug, apologize when
you need to,don't hit,don't tease', don't stare etc. Simple rules we
teach children because they work. Rules to live by.
6.Look for your own part in every problem. Apologize for your part and
take responsibility for it. Assume that you play a role in any problem
you have with another person.
I said "you" a lot. I meant "me". These are rules I live by. I do not
compromise with myself on them. I do my very best to adhere to them.
They have served me well.
Although my life has not always been as great as it is now, I
attribute my current happiness to years of effort aplied to this
little formula of mine.
Hope it helps
Eric Green
> his father, in front of his younger brother and mother. Non physical
> But I am convinced that retribution should be swift and meaningful.
Ah. OK, You are interested in retribution. Retribution is nice and
fine and dandy. Retribution has nothing to do with discipline, which
is the art of encouraging favorable behaviors and eliminating
unfavorable behaviors by a) providing alternative behaviors that
provide equivalent rewards, b) removing rewards for undesirable
behaviors, and c) providing punishment for those undesirable behaviors
that are inherently rewarding to an extent that they will not
otherwise become extinct.
Kids don't do things for no reason at all. They do things because they
recieve rewards for doing such things.
> don't want a situation to develop (truancy, drugs, run-away, aggression,
> or whatever) that will later require extensive (and perhaps unsuccessful
> counseling. I want my offspring to obey their parents and respect their
> authority.
Let us analyse this situation carefully. Why would your son defy you?
What rewards did he get from that situation?
Some possibilities:
1) It allowed him to recieve paternal attention. If this is so,
then providing alternative behaviors that recieve equal amounts of
paternal attention will be effective.
2) It allowed him to feel good about himself for resisting what he
viewed as unfair demands. If so, then providing other behaviors that
allow him to feel good about himself will reduce the incentives for
exhibiting the undesirable behaviors.
3) He felt that his individuality was threatened by your attempts
to assert control. Teenage misbehavior is often attributable to their
attempts to feel in control over their own lives. He felt that this
control was threatened by your attempts to assert your control. Many
kids get into drugs, drinking, etc. in order to feel like they are in
control of their own lives. The best way to head off such problems is
to allow your child to feel some measure of control over his own life,
such as, e.g., involving him in all major family decisions, providing
choices whenever possible, etc. This means that he will not have to
seek out other ways to feel in control of his own life -- ways which
may be quite unfavorable. It is also necessary, when doing this, to
remove controls from less important aspects of his life, and reserve
it for major issues.
Regarding wanting your children to obey and respect you, it is also
necessary to keep this in mind: punishment can only decrease the
probability of a behavior happening. It cannot increase the
probability of a behavior happening. Only rewards (or removal of
punishment) can cause an increase in the probability of a behavior
happening. Wanting your children to obey you and respect you will only
happen when they find that obeying you and respecting you are
rewarding. This is why punishment has proven to be relatively
ineffective at provoking obedience and respect from children (though
it can certainly be effective at reducing occurance of a behavior, if
occurance of that behavior isn't more rewarding than the worst
punishment you can hand out).
Let us analyse this a bit. Why do you respect a certain person?
Perhaps you respect this person because he is knowledgable? Perhaps
you have listened to this person, and found that his advice is good.
Perhaps you respect this person because he is always willing to listen
to you, is nonjudgemental, and always willing to help but never
butting in when his advice isn't wanted.
In other words, you respect this person because interacting with this
person is a rewarding experience for you.
Why do you obey a certain person? There's the whip, and the carrot.
The whip: this person may have the authority to fire you. The carrot:
this person has earned your respect as someone who is knowledgable,
fair, and a good administrator, and you have found through experience
that when he asks you to do something, it's generally something that
needs doing and that your talents are well suited for. In fact, this
person might say that -- "I've divided up the tasks for this month,
and here's one that your talents are particularly well-suited for." In
other words, instead of dragging your feet and reluctantly doing
something because he's holding a whip over your head, you do it
because you know it's a necessary job and he's a fair manager who
isn't going to screw you.
So: What are some ways for you to get your children to respect and
obey you?
I'm not sure. All that I do know is that if a manager acts like an
overbearing martinet and "demands" obedience and respect from his
underlings, his employees are unlikely to respect him and are likely
to employ passive disobedience (i.e., dragging their feet and wasting
resources and other ways to get out of doing work). We have decades of
industrial research on this particular point. Employee productivity
soars if employees feel that they have some say in major decisions, if
they feel that their manager is fair and that the job that they're
being asked to do is important and necessary, if there is an
atmosphere of cooperation and innovation, if employees are encouraged
to come up with better ways of doing things and find it rewarding to
do so in terms of better working conditions, accolades from the
manager or co-workers, etc....
The Japanese are whipping our tails with these methods. Maybe they
work.
--
--
Eric Lee Green e...@usl.edu P.O. Box 92191 Lafayette, LA 70506 (318) 989-8950
"It's never too late for a happy childhood" -- The Doctor
John Altinbay
>
>I keep reading that I said "the discipline should be done in
>front of a crowd" - no where in the statement above do I say that.
>"Discipline in front of the person wronged" - this gives the person
>being disciplined an opportunity to ask forgiveness.
>
Out of humiliation?
>
>Part of the spanking process is also conversation, before and after,
>loving (hugs) after to let him/her know that we still love them.
>Explanation as to the wrong and how to "right" it. Discipline is
>not just the spanking.
>
Then why not apply a kind of discipline that does not involve
the pain?
>Well I don't know ---- but when he says "I love you" before
>going to bed, within a couple hours of being spanked, I don't feel
>there is resentfulness in him or anger. "I love you" is not
>something he has been taught to say before going to sleep either,
>that comes from his heart.
>
It's really confusing for a kid who does love his/her parents to be
hit by them. The I love oyu may come from the heart, but I'd hate to feel
like they might be feeling inside. Yes, I have my own experiences to
fall back on for this.
Robbie Felix
>- First, I think that accusing someone who applies his bare hand to his child's
>- bottom of abusing him is way out of line. You might not believe in corporal
>- punishment, but there are enough professional opinions on both sides of this
>- issue that we must accept those whose views differ from ours. A belt, a hair
>- brush, etc. are crossing the line. But please give people the curtesy of
>- allowing them to follow what, until very, very recently has been standard
>- acceptable parenting behavior. It also demeans the idea of REAL child abuse
>- and that is a crime. So let's not be childish ourselves and let's try to
>- respect one another. Enough said.
There are two important points I would make about the observations you
have brought up here:
1. When we talk about crossing a line between discipline and abuse, I
agree there probably is one. I hear Dan talking about a kind of
spanking that is done with love, I do believe that Dan loves his kids
and that he feels he is disciplining with love. There is a problem
here though that needs to be addressed.
Who draws the line? And when? Unfortunately the line is frequently
drawn by an angry person who probably has no checks and balances to
keep them honest when they make a decision about spanking. I think
Many people spank children because they are angry. It is hard to
think rationally when the old adrenaline is flowing ( I think I have
been a classic example of that right here!) and most people who hit
are angry.
The problem is that the angry judge,jury and executer of sentence(the
parent) is generally not in a position to be rational. I would venture
that a large number of people who spank or hit or whatever feel
terrible about it later.
If the parent has the self-control to walk away and give himself an
hour or two to really think about what the problem is, I submit that
most parents will choose another way to discipline their kids. But I
believe that as long as anyone condones spanking they will not be as
motivated to think up win/win scenarios. It is too easy to resort to
our parent's methods, even when they don't seem to really work.
2. When you talk about "childish" behavior here ( and I openly admit
that mine has been) I think of what I was told as a child. I was told
not to hit other children. In fact as a teenager I was frequently told
I was childish for hitting my little sister. I was childish.
Perhaps the term is a loaded term for me. I am not really sure.
But I think of the things we do teach children and I have to ask
myself why do we teach children not to hit each other? I mean not a
single one of us would ever tell our children to hit,pinch, slap,
taunt,belittle or otherwise hurt another child to solve a dispute with
that child. If we heard that another parent had told their child to
use this kind of behavior with our child,well, I know I would
feel the parent was a monster.
We tell our children not to do this because it doesn't work, it
escalates uncontrollably, it causes hard feelings and resentment, it
is unfair and that it is better to try another way. We tell our
children that hitting is a last resort to be used when all else has
failed. I submit that if we tell them that there is ALWAYS another way
they will be forced to find another way. I also submit that if we
nevr allow ourselves to hit our children we will be forced to find a
better way, a win/win solution.
It is a challenge to find win/win solutions. I believe that the state
of the whole world begins in our living rooms. I believe that
everything we teach our children determines what happens to our entire
species. If we focus on creating winning strategies for living, our
children and grandchildren have a chance for a world free of violence.
If we teach them how to solve problems there may be a chance that they
will be able to fix the battered world we are going to pass on to them.
Teach them not to waste time assigning blame, but instead expend energy on
creative new methods of solving long-standing societal issues.
If I contribute one kid to the world who makes an impact on the
quality of life on this planet, I will have done the kind of job I
want to do as a parent.
It sounds utopian, but the buck stops here. My family has perpetuated
violence and anger for many generations. It was good enough for them,
it isn't good enough for me. I want to be a seed of change. I want to
offer a new method to the world, a new way, a better way.
A better world starts right here, with me.
I will always do everything I can to promote a better way when there
is one. There are better ways to build relationships, to solve
problems, to show love, to create responsible people.
I wish for everyone a family that is a refuge, a family filled with
love and compassion, a family where all members are strong and
responsible. I wish for each of you a loving relationship with your
parents and your children. I hope there will be a world where people
do not live in fear of one another, a world where war and abuse and hostility
are unknown.
It begins with each of us, here, today.
Dan Blomquist
rfe...@netcom.com (Robbie Felix) writes:
>
>
>I have one way I treat all people. I treat my daughter and fiance as I
>treat my clients, friends, associates etc. I can give you the formula.
>If you like any part of it, use it, if not discard it al and best
>wishes:
>
>
>
>4. Live every day as though it were your last.
not her, it was just a beginning for her, she was healed in the best
way I know of.
>6.Look for your own part in every problem. Apologize for your part and
>take responsibility for it. Assume that you play a role in any problem
>you have with another person.
I heard somebody explain this once. Everybody usually accepts about
15% of the responsibility, that leaves 60% which is the hard part.
Dan
Maxime Taksar
>4) The outbursts and even violence are expressions of fear; fear of
>leaving the safety and security of home. I know this seems strange
>and contradictory but sometimes the words: "Leave me alone and get
^^^^^^^^^
>out of my life" are a plea for help and reassurance. The challenge
>for parents is to give that help and reassurance without appearing
>to take control (which leads to the power struggle again).
The key word here is "sometimes". There are other times
when "Leave me alone" means exactly that. It did with me.
I doubt I had much fear of leaving home. There was certainly
no problem of obtaining help and reassurance from my friends
as well as myself.
This isn't to say that this applies to everyone. I think
that it's great advice to try and offer help and reassurance
*without* attempting to control.
--
------------------------------------------------------------
Maxime Taksar KC6ZPS m...@Berkeley.EDU
"GAS FOOD NEXT RIGHT" [Yum!] "END CONSTRUCTION [Now!]"