Question about Restriction/Grounding
Kristan Geissel
My daughter, 15, has been going through some tough times judgement-wise
and this culmulated in her being arrested for shoplifting two weekends
ago.
Since that time, she has been on good behavior. She is starting
summer school in July, will be volunteering at a hospital through
the summer, and is looking for a paying job (not much luck there since
most places require her to be 16) - in short, she seems agreeable to
getting her life back on track.
She is grounded from all activities which might take her out of my
sight and she has accepted this gracefully, also.
The problem is that she wants to go to a concert at the end of July
that I would have to go to also since it is out of town. We would
be taking one of her 'responsible' friends.
My daughter wants this to be something a 'to look forward to' activity
that will get her past her mistakes and illegal activities. I also
found out right after the shoplifting that the more horrendous
her mistake, the more she makes plans for the future. It is a way
of making herself feel better rather than beating herself about the
head and shoulders over her mistakes.
I fear it will be something that will create the sense that no matter
what you do wrong, you still get to do fun stuff.
I understand her wanting to plan for this concert and trip. It makes
her feel like she can change and go on after doing something really
stupid.
However, if the concert happens, will I be telling her essentially
that fun things can still happen even if you screw up big time?
Part of me wants to give her the benefit of the doubt but I have
done that in the past with continuing disasters. Part of me wants
to go ahead with plans because of the grief that she will create if
she can't go and my fear that she may just take off.
That's all, folks. Any advice would be appreciated.
Kristan
Helen Arias
In article 1...@nntp1.u.washington.edu, gwy...@u.washington.edu (Kristan Geissel) writes:
}My daughter, 15, has been going through some tough times judgement-wise
}and this culmulated in her being arrested for shoplifting two weekends
}ago.
}
}Since that time, she has been on good behavior. She is starting
}summer school in July, will be volunteering at a hospital through
}the summer, and is looking for a paying job (not much luck there since
}most places require her to be 16) - in short, she seems agreeable to
}getting her life back on track.
Being agreeable and actually getting her life back on track on
two entirely different things. ;)
}
}She is grounded from all activities which might take her out of my
}sight and she has accepted this gracefully, also.
Great. Good first step.
}
}The problem is that she wants to go to a concert at the end of July
}that I would have to go to also since it is out of town. We would
}be taking one of her 'responsible' friends.
}
}My daughter wants this to be something a 'to look forward to' activity
}that will get her past her mistakes and illegal activities. I also
}found out right after the shoplifting that the more horrendous
}her mistake, the more she makes plans for the future. It is a way
}of making herself feel better rather than beating herself about the
}head and shoulders over her mistakes.
}
}I fear it will be something that will create the sense that no matter
}what you do wrong, you still get to do fun stuff.
You are absolutely right in your last sentence. So far, you've
said that she "will" be starting school and she "will" be
volunteering. From what I gather, she has done none of these
yet. So, your daughter has felt no repercussions for her behavior.
By taking her to the concert, you will essentially be rewarding
her when she's really done nothing "tangible" yet to make amends
for her shoplifting.
}
}I understand her wanting to plan for this concert and trip. It makes
}her feel like she can change and go on after doing something really
}stupid.
She must already have shown proof of change before rewarding her.
}
}However, if the concert happens, will I be telling her essentially
}that fun things can still happen even if you screw up big time?
Yup. That's exactly what you are doing.
}
}Part of me wants to give her the benefit of the doubt but I have
}done that in the past with continuing disasters. Part of me wants
}to go ahead with plans because of the grief that she will create if
}she can't go and my fear that she may just take off.
Listen to the part of you that says your daughter MUST pay for
the consequences of her behavior and no matter how much she
whines and cries, you should remember that it was SHE who
created this situation; not you.
Children ALWAYS create grief. It's in their motive operendi.
They are VERY good at it. If you can duck from the guilt-daggers,
you'll be able to listen to your heart and make the right decision.
H.
Susan Thorpe
hel...@merlot.corp.sun.com (Helen Arias) wrote:
>In article 1...@nntp1.u.washington.edu, gwy...@u.washington.edu (Kristan Geissel) writes:
>}My daughter, 15, <snip>
>}Since that time, she has been on good behavior. <snip>
>
>Being agreeable and actually getting her life back on track on
>two entirely different things. ;)
<snip>
>Great. Good first step.
>
<a lot of snip>
>You are absolutely right in your last sentence. So far, you've
>said that she "will" be starting school and she "will" be
>volunteering. From what I gather, she has done none of these
>yet. So, your daughter has felt no repercussions for her behavior.
>By taking her to the concert, you will essentially be rewarding
>her when she's really done nothing "tangible" yet to make amends
>for her shoplifting.
The <snips> are only to save space...
I too have a teen a 15 yr old son. He is "going" to great things -
but I'm not sure when "we're" "going" to get "THERE"!
I decided to quit arguing with him and just doing what I think is best
- he's is grounded to all activities "UNTIL" he has satisfied my
requirements during the day - rather it be house work or school work
(I have have him enrolled in an online school to get his study skills
up before school starts back (he flunked the last yr miserably!) or
job (which to get one is also a requirement) He DOES nothing - he
gets to DO NOTHING.
>}I understand her wanting to plan for this concert and trip. It makes
>}her feel like she can change and go on after doing something really
>}stupid.
>
>She must already have shown proof of change before rewarding her.
Yes - they always change for a day or even a week - but in my house
anyway - that is just to get me off his back. That's why I'm trying
to "change" his habits - not my expectations.
>}However, if the concert happens, will I be telling her essentially
>}that fun things can still happen even if you screw up big time?
>
>Yup. That's exactly what you are doing.
>
>}
>}Part of me wants to give her the benefit of the doubt but I have
>}done that in the past with continuing disasters. Part of me wants
>}to go ahead with plans because of the grief that she will create if
>}she can't go and my fear that she may just take off.
I laughed when my son told me "he just couldn't live here anymore" OK
- I said, so where you gonna go now?? It sort of got his attention.
But - we've all made mistakes and yes there is life afterwards, maybe
just let them know they CAN DO anything they WANT to IF - IF - IF
their actions dictate the type of person responsible enough to be
eligible to participate in the function. That puts the burden back
on them.
>Listen to the part of you that says your daughter MUST pay for
>the consequences of her behavior and no matter how much she
>whines and cries, you should remember that it was SHE who
>created this situation; not you.
>
>Children ALWAYS create grief. It's in their motive operendi.
>They are VERY good at it. If you can duck from the guilt-daggers,
>you'll be able to listen to your heart and make the right decision.
>
>H.
Yes they cause their own grief just as we did (and still do alot of
times) and yes there is life that goes on - when they figure out they
are "in charge" of their own destiny - they tend to change their
procedures.
Just my thoughts.
Elaine Gallegos
Kristan Geissel (gwy...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: My daughter wants this to be something a 'to look forward to' activity
: that will get her past her mistakes and illegal activities. I also
: found out right after the shoplifting that the more horrendous
: her mistake, the more she makes plans for the future. It is a way
: of making herself feel better rather than beating herself about the
: head and shoulders over her mistakes.
Excuse me, but shoplifting is a CRIME. Not a mistake. A mistake is when
you refuse to take a sweater in the morning and it turns out to be really
cold. A mistake is leaving your book on the bus, or picking up the wrong
package at the store. If your daughter has just been ARRESTED for
shoplifting, you have much
more serious problems than what conserts she does or does not attend this
summer.
Elaine Gallegos
Kristan Geissel (gwy...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: My daughter, 15, has been going through some tough times judgement-wise
: and this culmulated in her being arrested for shoplifting two weekends
: ago.
I believe that shoplifting /stealing is more than a question of
judgement. For one thing, she KNOWS that stealing is wrong. Stealing is a
vice. It is very like compulsive gambling. There's a whole string of
additive behaviors that go into the process of shoplifting.
furthermore, shoplifting might be a vice that she will be a long time
outgrowing. The most common crime for women is "paperhanging". That is,
writing bad checks. Paperhanging is only a stone's throw away from
shoplifting, and it's taken VERY seriously.
: Since that time, she has been on good behavior. She is starting
: summer school in July, will be volunteering at a hospital through
: the summer, and is looking for a paying job (not much luck there since
: most places require her to be 16)
Your daughter NEEDS a job. Part of the dynamic of shoplifting is her
relationship with money. If she doesn't know the meaning of money, or
does not have adequate spending money, shiplifitng is going to start to
seem mighty attractive.
Help your daughter to get a job. ANY job. She could be a mother's helper,
a housekeeper, or even do yardwork.
"oh well, she's too young to work this year" just isn't going to cut it.
I think that she should take part of the money she earns, and pay that to
the shop from which she stole.
Kristan Geissel
In article <6mpeeh$fge$1...@jethro.Corp.Sun.COM>,
Helen Arias <hel...@merlot.corp.sun.com> wrote:
>Being agreeable and actually getting her life back on track on
>two entirely different things. ;)
Helen, you are right about that. While the pleasantry is great to
experience, I can't help but wonder if it means that much.
>}
>}She is grounded from all activities which might take her out of my
>}sight and she has accepted this gracefully, also.
>
>Great. Good first step.
>
Thank you - I thought so too. It was much easier to say this rather
than "you're never doing anything again with anyone." She is still
restricted and what's more, if she wants to go to the store, she has
to be seen in public with me.
>}
>}I fear it will be something that will create the sense that no matter
>}what you do wrong, you still get to do fun stuff.
>
>You are absolutely right in your last sentence. So far, you've
>said that she "will" be starting school and she "will" be
>volunteering. From what I gather, she has done none of these
>yet. So, your daughter has felt no repercussions for her behavior.
>By taking her to the concert, you will essentially be rewarding
>her when she's really done nothing "tangible" yet to make amends
>for her shoplifting.
The only repreccusion she has felt so far is the restriction. However,
I was very happy that this restriction started the week before school
got out. She missed last-day-of-school parties and that was painful.
We did go out to dinner to kept the 9 year old tradition of last day
of school dinners out going but that was the extent of her last day
activities. Summer has been in full gear since the restriction
started and of course there are her friends running all over creation
but she can't. But I don't care.
She is working for my parents (small antique business) and that is
equally boring to her. Volunteering will expect a lot of her and I
am sure she will find this trying as well.
I feel great about the torture that she is going through being so
restricted and her time so crowded with responsibilities.
>
>She must already have shown proof of change before rewarding her.
>Listen to the part of you that says your daughter MUST pay for
>the consequences of her behavior and no matter how much she
>whines and cries, you should remember that it was SHE who
>created this situation; not you.
>
>Children ALWAYS create grief. It's in their motive operendi.
>They are VERY good at it. If you can duck from the guilt-daggers,
>you'll be able to listen to your heart and make the right decision.
>
I appreciate your input on this. I too agree that 'proof of change'
must come 'before rewarding her'. It is an unfortunate fact of life
that people have difference time-references in her life. My daughter
looks at it as she has not been in trouble during the past two weeks
and that should count for something. The reality is that two weeks
of good behavior does not make up for her arrest and and prior
behavior.
Any I have to be brave, weather the storm that is sure to come, and
let her know not only that we are not going to this concert but why
two weeks of good behavior essentially doesn't count except in the
long run.
Thanks, Helen.
Kristan
Kristan Geissel
In article <35904e83...@news.mindspring.com>,
Susan Thorpe <set...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>I too have a teen a 15 yr old son. He is "going" to great things -
>but I'm not sure when "we're" "going" to get "THERE"!
>
>I decided to quit arguing with him and just doing what I think is best
>- he's is grounded to all activities "UNTIL" he has satisfied my
>requirements during the day - rather it be house work or school work
>(I have have him enrolled in an online school to get his study skills
>up before school starts back (he flunked the last yr miserably!) or
>job (which to get one is also a requirement) He DOES nothing - he
>gets to DO NOTHING.
>
>anyway - that is just to get me off his back. That's why I'm trying
>to "change" his habits - not my expectations.
>
>- I said, so where you gonna go now?? It sort of got his attention.
>But - we've all made mistakes and yes there is life afterwards, maybe
>just let them know they CAN DO anything they WANT to IF - IF - IF
>their actions dictate the type of person responsible enough to be
>eligible to participate in the function. That puts the burden back
>on them.
>
>times) and yes there is life that goes on - when they figure out they
>are "in charge" of their own destiny - they tend to change their
>procedures.
>
>Just my thoughts.
>
And what good thoughts. I am finding there is a delicate balance
between changing my expectations of my daughter (she is not a clone
of me) and changing my expectations of her HABITS (she has some
horrible ones, most self-created, some passed down through the
generations and we still can't change them).
I figure that I am amply being paid back for all the grief that I
have caused my folks over the years and they are being very gracious
about not laughing and pointing their fingers about my daughter
pulling similar stunts.
Kristan
Kristan Geissel
In article <6mpodq$t5c$1...@haus.efn.org>,
Elaine - you are 100% right - this is more serious than refusing a
sweater. The point I wanted to make here was my realizing that she
wasn't a sociopath when it came to _appearing_ like she wasn't
remorseful when makes plans after screwing up; this is a coping
mechanism of hers. It still doesn't make me feel better knowing this -
I want weeping and wailing and visible signs of remorse (when I was
16 and got into big time trouble, I 'proved' my remorse by cutting off my
waist length hair - don't know where that idea came from). But at
least she and I were able to talk about her apparent lack of remorse
and I pointed out that I was not able to make happy plans in the wake
of her bad behavior and that she better clam down because she has
screwed up and shouldn't be planning much of anything.
Kristan
Kristan Geissel
In article <6mrjfi$o41$1...@haus.efn.org>,
Elaine Gallegos <ela...@garcia.efn.org> wrote:
>
> Your daughter NEEDS a job. Part of the dynamic of shoplifting is her
>relationship with money. If she doesn't know the meaning of money, or
>does not have adequate spending money, shiplifitng is going to start to
>seem mighty attractive.
> Help your daughter to get a job. ANY job. She could be a mother's helper,
>a housekeeper, or even do yardwork.
> "oh well, she's too young to work this year" just isn't going to cut it.
Believe me, I know she needs a job. Money has always been tight in our
house (rent and food come first, dear daughter). I am lucky that my
parents have a small business, are in the process of relocating and can
use any help they can get. She is taking inventory and will later help
pack and then unpack that inventory. That will take up a considerable
amount of time.
There are things that I would love to have her do, projects, etc. that
would be worthy of pay but money, as I said, is tight in our house.
She isn't too young to work, she's just too young to be hired by places
like K-Mart, Burger King, and Denny's. There unfortunately aren't
any businesses in our area that are bigger than a Mom and Pop place and
smaller than a corporate franchise. They do exist in the Seattle area
but I don't want her taking an hour on the bus both ways getting there
or working in the less desirable areas of this fair city.
>I think that she should take part of the money she earns, and pay that to
>the shop from which she stole.
>
Great idea - one I plan on acting on IF I get something from the store.
The security officer where she shoplifted said that it was rare that
the store actually filed the civil suit when they recovered the items.
Of course, it's possible (probable) that she will be slapped with a
fine by the court which of course then she would be responsible for.
Which is going to hurt her a great deal.
Kristan
Kristan Geissel
In article <6mrvrv$t0f$1...@haus.efn.org>,
Elaine Gallegos <ela...@garcia.efn.org> wrote:
> I believe that your daughter is suffering from a compulsion to steal. As
>well as punishment for her behavior, please look into getting her some
>counselling to help her understand why she is doing it, and to get her
>help to stop.
> Punishment alone may or may not stop the stealing.
Elaine - your input on this whole subject has been great. But there
isn't a pattern of theft here which would indicate a compulsion. A
compulsion or obsession is a series of repeated behaviors. I have
a compulsion to look at birds - so I go bird watching repeatedly.
This does not mean that I condone her behavior in any way, shape, or
form. She broke the law, screwed up royally, shattered my trust in
her judgment, and generally wounded all family members with her
behavior.
If she does it again, she goes to jail. And I will gladly visit
her there, hoping that she also has a decent therapist.
But a one time action is not a compulsion or an obsession unless the
definition has changed overnight.
Kristan
Kristan
Helen Arias
You sound like a great parent, Kristan. I think you are doing all
the right things and I commend your honesty and appreciate your
willingness to accept all of our advice with such calm and
clarity.
I think your daughter is lucky to have someone like you.
Remember to keep the communication lines open, even when you
just DON'T want to hear what she has to say.
Be firm and don't allow her to manipulate you away from the
actions you KNOW are the right thing to do. You will be fine
and I hope you will keep us informed as to how your daughter
does.
Good luck to you and remember, no matter how the information
comes across, we really are here to try to help AND listen.
Keep in touch.
H.
In article 1...@nntp1.u.washington.edu, gwy...@u.washington.edu (Kristan Geissel) writes:
}In article <6mrjfi$o41$1...@haus.efn.org>,
Elaine Gallegos
Kristan Geissel (gwy...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: In article <6mrvrv$t0f$1...@haus.efn.org>,
: Elaine Gallegos <ela...@garcia.efn.org> wrote:
: > I believe that your daughter is suffering from a compulsion to steal. As
: >counselling to help her understand why she is doing it, and to get her
: >help to stop.
: > Punishment alone may or may not stop the stealing.
: Elaine - your input on this whole subject has been great.
It's really gratifying that you're so envolved in the discussion. I
sense that you actively want to get your daughter on track, and are
really and envolved parent.
: But there
: isn't a pattern of theft here which would indicate a compulsion.
You're saying that she got nailed the very FIRST time she ever stole
something? I have some trouble believing that.
I can remember being her age. Some groups teens have a whole little "cult"
about shoplifting. They didn't call it stealing, either. At that time it
was called, "kipeing".
Girls would get together, and talking about "kipeing" things. It was
considered a way to get status among peers. Again, I'd like to note that
it was never called stealing. Teen shoplifting was considered a daring,
adventurous act that demanded a lot of courage in the eyes of the group.
Sometimes, they'd show off a small object that they claimed to have
shoplifted.... much to the oohs, and ahhhs of the group.
Yes, a lot of these girls are very much obsessed with shoplifting. It's
also very possible that a lot more of them just talked the talk, and
never actually stole anything.
Of course, many of them did. They'd have contests to see who could get
the best items, and compare them later.
: A
: compulsion or obsession is a series of repeated behaviors.
I contend that your child thought about stealing, stole and stole
repeatedly before she was caught. What is going on with her is as I said
before very similar to writing bad checks, or compulsive gambling.
Kristan Geissel
In article <6ms8tc$38d$1...@haus.efn.org>,
Elaine Gallegos <ela...@garcia.efn.org> wrote:
Elaine - where do you come off making these blanket statements? I
understand that shoplifting/kipeing is a thrill for teenaged girls.
I lifted (that's what we called it) a bottle of nail polish once.
Only once, never since though I have been in situations much more
ameneable to shoplifting.
Don't you think that I would have seen something 'extra' in her
possesion? New clothes that I didn't buy? New clothes that didn't
match the amount money that I had given her to buy things with?
What would be the point of shoplifting if you couldn't show off the
stuff? If everything was in her locker at school, since I cleaned
out her locker this year, don't you'd think I'd notice clothes, etc.
in that mess?
I know that the pain of having a teenager is that you cannot be
with them 100% of the time. But I can tell you without one,
single doubt that she has not shoplifted before. I know what she
has, know that she is vain enough to have to wear any new clothes
that she or I buy, know that she is not doing drugs (my downstairs
neighborhood is a counselor of street kids and knows that my
daughter is not doing drugs), I know that she has no extra money
(assuming she is shoplifting for money). I know these things
because I take an active (though very much hated by her) role
in her life. I don't monitor her phone calls but I am very
aware of what she has and doesn't have. One of the reasons money
is tight is because a lot of goes to my daughter and her upkeep
(do you know how expense The Gap is :). She has to work for her
money and clothes and CDs but she only has what she buys with her
allowance - nothing extra.
I am curious - do you have children or are you one a teen that
occassionally post on this group? I think that we would all
be curious to know. But maybe everyone does because I am an
ocassional lurker and don't read everyone's post.
If you do have children, did you have to deal with shoplifting?
What was your approach and/or reaction? I figure the more I
know about the motivations behind it, the better. Maybe my
daughter won't end up in a 'boot camp' like the daughter of a
co-worker of mind did. Scary thought.
Anyway, the general concensus of the group regarding the concert
was NO WAY. Which I knew already but just needed some gentle
reminders by other parents of teenagers.
Kristan
Marie Houck
In article <6ms8tc$38d$1...@haus.efn.org>, ela...@garcia.efn.org (Elaine
Gallegos) wrote:
> Kristan Geissel (gwy...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
> : In article <6mrvrv$t0f$1...@haus.efn.org>,
> : Elaine Gallegos <ela...@garcia.efn.org> wrote:
> : > I believe that your daughter is suffering from a compulsion to steal. As
> : >well as punishment for her behavior, please look into getting her some
> : >counselling to help her understand why she is doing it, and to get her
> : >help to stop.
> : > Punishment alone may or may not stop the stealing.
>
> : Elaine - your input on this whole subject has been great.
>
> It's really gratifying that you're so envolved in the discussion. I
> sense that you actively want to get your daughter on track, and are
> really and envolved parent.
>
> : But there
> : isn't a pattern of theft here which would indicate a compulsion.
>
> You're saying that she got nailed the very FIRST time she ever stole
> something? I have some trouble believing that.
It does happen. In fact, those who are least skilled (ie, NOT
experienced) may be more likely to be caught. I suspect this mother knows
her daughter well enough to know whether this has been something that's
been going on for a while, or was new (or relatively new) behavior.
Marie Houck
Helen Arias
In article 1...@haus.efn.org, ela...@garcia.efn.org (Elaine Gallegos) writes:
}
} I contend that your child thought about stealing, stole and stole
}repeatedly before she was caught. What is going on with her is as I said
}before very similar to writing bad checks, or compulsive gambling.
}
Okay, Elaine, you had me in our boat all the way up till now.
You have no way of KNOWING that this wasn't a first time offense.
By your contention then, if one smokes for the first time, they
will be addicted for the rest of their lives. If one drinks one
glass of alcohol, they will be addicted as well. I'm sure you
can see that each individual is different and one offense does
not constitute a compulsive behavior.
I'd say that Kristan is doing well in her reactions and has
come here for support in those. She doesn't need to hear that
because of one incident, her daughter is an addiction. We'll
have to wait and see what the outcome is.
I DO agree with you statement that Kristan's daughter should
go to the department store and make amends with the manager.
It is a tangible way of understanding what she did wrong.
It's one thing to screw up and deal with your mother; it's
entirely another thing to humble yourself to a person of
authority.
H.
Elaine Gallegos
Kristan Geissel (gwy...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: Don't you think that I would have seen something 'extra' in her
: possesion? New clothes that I didn't buy? New clothes that didn't
: match the amount money that I had given her to buy things with?
: What would be the point of shoplifting if you couldn't show off the
: stuff? If everything was in her locker at school, since I cleaned
: out her locker this year, don't you'd think I'd notice clothes, etc.
: in that mess?
It's pointless to argue with me as to whether your daughter has an
ongoing problem with stealing. Obviously, you are going to have a lot
invested in hoping that this is a one time event, and just a terrible
mistake.
What the girl did was wrong, but in a way, it was a kind of statement
about her life and her outlook. My outsider's view is that she has a
problem with learned helplessness. (no spending money, too young to get a
regular job). She decided to commit a bold act.
How about entering a dialogue with HER about her experience and emotions
connected with her stealing? If you go into it with an open mind, you
will probably learn a lot.
Obviously, this is a heated subject, so how about having a moderator
present during the talk? Someone who would insist that the girl tell the
truth, and that you not freak when you hear it?
Kristan Geissel
In article <6mtpol$kt3$1...@haus.efn.org>,
Elaine Gallegos <ela...@garcia.efn.org> wrote:
>
> It's pointless to argue with me as to whether your daughter has an
>ongoing problem with stealing. Obviously, you are going to have a lot
>invested in hoping that this is a one time event, and just a terrible
>mistake.
Ok, Elaine. I cave. I give into to your infinite wisdom regarding
children. You are right and I am incorrect. You have the answers
that all of us idjeets are looking for in this group and we bow in
your general direction. I am sure that my daughter is headed for a
life of theft, prostitution, and also a life of completely dysfunctional
relationships. Thank you so much for opening my eyes to see the light.
Halleluejah - we are all saved now from attempting any sort of outside
therapy with our children. We have Elaine. I'll remember to mention
this to our court-appointed mediator when we go in regarding my kid's
shoplifting. He/She probably even knows you, Elaine, and will sing
your praises to the sky.
Ok, happy now, Elaine? I responded to your jibes. Did I make your
day? Did I make you feel useful? I hope so. Because I don't think
you have much of a life if you take so much pleasure in analyzing
others' lives for them. And far be it from me to ruin YOUR day.
You're too special.
Kristan
Tarkaan
Elaine Gallegos wrote:
>
> What the girl did was wrong, but in a way, it was a kind of statement
> about her life and her outlook. My outsider's view is that she has a
> problem with learned helplessness. (no spending money, too young to get a
> regular job). She decided to commit a bold act.
People make stupid choices sometimes. Can't you respect that this woman
knows a little more about the actions of her own daughter than you do?
As someone else said, it's easier to get caught the first time,
especially if someone else is pressuring you into doing it. I've been
a security guard at a massive "everything store". I caught someone
shoplifting when she was acting dodgy by the video game aisle and I
followed her around with the cameras for awhile until she put a game in
her back pocket. The only reason I caught her was because she had an
"uneasy feel" about the way she was looking at and interacting with
people. It was her first time.
-- Brian Ream Kalamazoo Michigan
-- mailto:osi...@net-link.net http://www.net-link.net/~osiris
Helen Arias
}: Don't you think that I would have seen something 'extra' in her
}: possesion? New clothes that I didn't buy? New clothes that didn't
}: match the amount money that I had given her to buy things with?
}: What would be the point of shoplifting if you couldn't show off the
}: stuff? If everything was in her locker at school, since I cleaned
}: out her locker this year, don't you'd think I'd notice clothes, etc.
}: in that mess?
}
}ongoing problem with stealing.
Then why did you bring it up?
>Obviously, you are going to have a lot
}invested in hoping that this is a one time event, and just a terrible
}mistake.
Well, uh, wouldn't ANY parent?
} What the girl did was wrong, but in a way, it was a kind of statement
}about her life and her outlook.
Elaine, the backyard analyst, has spoken. You know absolutely NOTHING
about Kristan's daughter, other than the tidbit of information she
has provide for us and you jump to conclusions.
My outsider's view is that she has a
}problem with learned helplessness. (no spending money, too young to get a
}regular job).
And just HOW do YOU know that she has no spending money?
According to your previous posts, you seem to think that
Kristan's daughter is suffering from a compulsion to steal.
Well, Elaine, if that were true, she'd be stealing whether
she had the money or not.
Now, which is it, Elaine?
>She decided to commit a bold act.
She decided to steal something.
} How about entering a dialogue with HER about her experience and emotions
}connected with her stealing? If you go into it with an open mind, you
}will probably learn a lot.
Kind of like YOUR "open" mind, Elaine?
} Obviously, this is a heated subject, so how about having a moderator
}present during the talk?
It doesn't sound heated at all. It sounds like Kristan is doing
a fine job in dishing out the consequences of her daughter's
behavior.
If memory serves me correctly, I believe that Kristan only
wanted advice about an upcoming concert.
}Someone who would insist that the girl tell the
}truth,
Don't you mean, that you would insist that she
tell you the TRUTH YOU want to hear?
}and that you not freak when you hear it?
And you're SO sure that the answers are going to freak Kristan out?
H.
}
Elaine Gallegos
Tarkaan (osi...@net-link.net) wrote:
: Elaine Gallegos wrote:
: >
: > What the girl did was wrong, but in a way, it was a kind of statement
: > about her life and her outlook. My outsider's view is that she has a
: > problem with learned helplessness. (no spending money, too young to get a
: People make stupid choices sometimes. Can't you respect that this woman
: knows a little more about the actions of her own daughter than you do?
Gee, I guess she does NOW.
: As someone else said, it's easier to get caught the first time,
Elaine Gallegos
Tarkaan (osi...@net-link.net) wrote:
: The only reason I caught her was because she had an
: "uneasy feel" about the way she was looking at and interacting with
: people. It was her first time.
And you believed that? You catch a thief redhanded and then believe the
next thing out of her mouth? "uh huh, yeah, sure, officer, it's my first
offense."
It might have been your "collar's" first arrest...but it would be very
surprising indeed that any shoplifter would get caught on the first try.
What difference does it make how many times someone has commited a
crime? They might have some real problems with shoplifting even before
they actually go through with the act. Such as casing out a store,
associating with other kids who think shoplifting is really cool, and
giving a lot of positive feedback to those kids bold enough to actually
go through with it.
Helen Arias
In article 2...@haus.efn.org, ela...@garcia.efn.org (Elaine Gallegos) writes:
}Tarkaan (osi...@net-link.net) wrote:
}: The only reason I caught her was because she had an
}: "uneasy feel" about the way she was looking at and interacting with
}: people. It was her first time.
}
} And you believed that? You catch a thief redhanded and then believe the
}next thing out of her mouth? "uh huh, yeah, sure, officer, it's my first
}offense."
So, you don't believe there's a first time for anything, do you.
You just CAN'T believe that a person would get caught on their first
offense?
} It might have been your "collar's" first arrest...but it would be very
}surprising indeed that any shoplifter would get caught on the first try.
Why is this so surprising? Inexperience is pretty obvious, wouldn't you
say?
} What difference does it make how many times someone has commited a
}crime?
Well, for one thing, YOU are the one who keeps bringing it up.
They might have some real problems with shoplifting even before
}they actually go through with the act.
I think most people have real problems with shoplifting. That's
why most of us don't do it.
Such as casing out a store,
}associating with other kids who think shoplifting is really cool, and
}giving a lot of positive feedback to those kids bold enough to actually
}go through with it.
What does this have to do with your inability to believe that
there is a first time for everything?
H.
}
George
ela...@garcia.efn.org (Elaine Gallegos) wrote:
>Tarkaan (osi...@net-link.net) wrote:
>: The only reason I caught her was because she had an
>: "uneasy feel" about the way she was looking at and interacting with
>: people. It was her first time.
>
> And you believed that? You catch a thief redhanded and then believe the
>next thing out of her mouth? "uh huh, yeah, sure, officer, it's my first
>offense."
> It might have been your "collar's" first arrest...but it would be very
>surprising indeed that any shoplifter would get caught on the first try.
> What difference does it make how many times someone has commited a
>crime? They might have some real problems with shoplifting even before
>they actually go through with the act. Such as casing out a store,
>associating with other kids who think shoplifting is really cool, and
>giving a lot of positive feedback to those kids bold enough to actually
>go through with it.
This last Friday (June 19th) I had the unpleasant task of escorting my
two teen-aged daughters to the local court house where they had to
face the charge of violating the local curfew ordinance. (Guilty,
$75.00 fine for each of them, plus a 12 hour class, plus an
educational trip to the local county jail. The total cost to this dad
was $210.00 plus the loss of one nights sleep to bail them out after
the arrest, plus the loss of 1/2 day at work to go to court.)
Anyhow, in front of us was a mom and her 15 year old daughter. The
daughter had just plead guilty to a charge of shoplifting. I was
standing behind the village attorney as she gave instructions to the
mom and her daughter. The village attorney gave the daughter the
paperwork and then turned to the mom and said, "We know that by the
time a teen is arrested for their first shoplifting charge, they have
already shoplifted an average of 49 times. Now it's true that this
number is an average, but that's what our statistics say. I'm telling
you this because if you think that this is the first time that your
daughter has been out shoplifting, you are seriously deluding
yourself."
It was interesting to me that the daughter squirmed but couldn't bring
herself to rebut the village attorney. Perhaps it really was her first
time. Perhaps it was simply the fact that the aura of the solemn court
room was too intimidating for her to speak up in her own defense, or
perhaps the aura of the court room was just intimidating enough to
stop her from lying and claiming that it was her first time, when in
fact she knew that she had shoplifted before.
I don't know.
But I can speak from personal experience here because I can remember
when I was a teen, the name that we had for shoplifting was "hocking,"
I was nabbed by a store detective when I was about 13 years old. One
of my friends and I had been out on a "hocking spree". The store dick
who caught us was very lenient with my friend and me, he didn't turn
us over to the police, even though his general manager swore at us and
told him to do so. This was probably a play on the good cop/bad cop
script. But hell, a terrified 13 year old doesn't know anything about
that.
I don't know how many times my friends and I had gone out "hocking"
before that event, but it was definitely more than a dozen times.
Things that I can remember stealing were: cigarettes, cigars, pipe
tobacco, Silly Putty, cork guns, a padlock and pens.
Our petty theft was never done for material gain. It was done to prove
that we were brave and daring guys. When we were caught, we both had
more money in our pockets than the value of the merchandize that we
were trying to steal. I remember being mildly shocked when the store
detective pointed this out to me because only then did it occur to me
that the value of the merchandize was meaningless.
My mother was called, and had to come down to the store to get me. She
forbade me from ever seeing that particular friend again. A
commandment that I obeyed.
I am sure that my mother knew nothing about my criminal escapades
before my run in with the store dick. I am sure that it came as a
total shock to her. Afterward, in a state of anguish, she went through
my stuff and threw away anything that she did not positively identify
as being mine. I can recall her holding up some toy or other and
asking me where I got it from. If my answer was not one that
positively identified the object on its face, then she threw it in the
garbage. To the best of my recollection, she didn't find a single
stolen item, even though she did throw away a few legitimate toys.
Certainly the tobacco products were all smoked outside of the house.
The other miscellaneous items were easily hidden or had been given
away. Furthermore, this was stuff that was meaningful to a 13 year old
boy, not what one would normally steal. I mean, if you are going to
risk being caught for shoplifting, would you really take that risk for
the sake of a blob of Silly Putty? I think that as an adult, my mother
was looking for items of greater monetary value.
For months, perhaps years after the event, I hated the store dick who
had nabbed us. Ranking him above Adolph Hitler on my personal list of
despicable people. However, he probably had a very positive influence
on my life. Certainly I have never shoplifted again in the 35 years
since that event. But more than that, I did learn something about
responsibility and learned that the things that we do are not done in
a vacuum. I have been scrupulously honest from that day forward.
What I'm trying to say is this:
1) Probability says that this was not the first time. Probability says
that it was the 49th time.
2) By looking at her stuff, you may not be able to tell if your
daughter is stealing things. This kind of theft is done to enhance
peer prestige not as a need for acquisition.
3) I believe that it is very important to treat it gently. It is
indeed criminal behavior, but it is not done out of criminal intent.
My belief is that you should allow the first time offender to look
over the line at what could happen if they really were a criminal.
This gives them a chance to back off. It is my belief that if you
treat them as a criminal on the first offense (to scare them straight
so to speak) then you run a very real risk of making them view
themselves as having irrevocably crossed that line.
And if they view themselves as having crossed that line, then they are
very likely to continue in their criminal behavior.
Whew,
Please accept my apologies for this unduly long post.
If you are no longer reading, then you have my unheard apology for
wasting bandwidth.
--
You can contact me by posting to alt.anonymous.messages,
ATTN: George
PGP Key: http://pgp5.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x8470FC5F
Kristan Geissel
In article <35991e5c...@news.alt.net>,
George <geo...@alt.anonymous.messages> wrote:
(fantastic story clipped for brevity's sake - thanks for this, George)
>
>Anyhow, in front of us was a mom and her 15 year old daughter. The
>daughter had just plead guilty to a charge of shoplifting. I was
>standing behind the village attorney as she gave instructions to the
>mom and her daughter. The village attorney gave the daughter the
>paperwork and then turned to the mom and said, "We know that by the
>time a teen is arrested for their first shoplifting charge, they have
>already shoplifted an average of 49 times. Now it's true that this
>number is an average, but that's what our statistics say. I'm telling
>you this because if you think that this is the first time that your
>daughter has been out shoplifting, you are seriously deluding
>yourself."
>
>What I'm trying to say is this:
>
>1) Probability says that this was not the first time. Probability says
>that it was the 49th time.
>
>2) By looking at her stuff, you may not be able to tell if your
>daughter is stealing things. This kind of theft is done to enhance
>peer prestige not as a need for acquisition.
>
>3) I believe that it is very important to treat it gently. It is
>indeed criminal behavior, but it is not done out of criminal intent.
>My belief is that you should allow the first time offender to look
>over the line at what could happen if they really were a criminal.
>This gives them a chance to back off. It is my belief that if you
>treat them as a criminal on the first offense (to scare them straight
>so to speak) then you run a very real risk of making them view
>themselves as having irrevocably crossed that line.
>
What an incredible post. Thank you so much for your input. Very
thought provoking.
I stated what I did about my daughter's possessions because, even
though she may or may not possess a criminal mind :), she is a
clothes horse, always has been and always will. Like I said in an
earlier post, she has no new clothes that I have not either bought
or looked at, complete with torn (read: they went through a checker)
tags items of clothing. If she was stealing clothes, she wasn't
wearing them which is so out of context for this girl it isn't
even funny.
I am not discounting that she has shoplifted before - I can't do
that because I am not in her mind. But I have a sneaking suspicion
that this was a first time because of 1) article of clothing, nothing
else were taken and 2) she has no new articles of clothing - unless of
course she is stashing them somewhere and not wearing them - a sight
I cannot envision even in my wildest dreams - she loves clothes.
Your point about treating the crime gently is an interesting one.
The thought had crossed my mind because of earlier problems with
grades, skipping school, sneaking out at night (caught her) that
I might let them go harder on her then they usually might for a
first time offender - juvenile detention for a couple of days.
I thought it might "scare her straight" to quote some bad movie -
never thought it might actually make her think that she had been
given up on as a bad seed.
George, again, thank you. Your statements regarding previous
shoplifting experiences of teenagers were gently stated and
I do appreciate them. I will have to contemplate my navel awhile
on your comments.
Kristan
Elaine Gallegos
aus.efn.org> <35991e5c...@news.alt.net>:
Distribution:
The behavior of the kid is a whole lot easier to understand that that of
the parent. The kid steals. That's a problem. What the heck DIFFERENCE
does it make if she doesn't do it that much?
George (geo...@alt.anonymous.messages) wrote:
: ela...@garcia.efn.org (Elaine Gallegos) wrote:
: >Tarkaan (osi...@net-link.net) wrote:
: >: The only reason I caught her was because she had an
: >: "uneasy feel" about the way she was looking at and interacting with
: >: people. It was her first time.
: >
: > And you believed that? You catch a thief redhanded and then believe the
: >next thing out of her mouth? "uh huh, yeah, sure, officer, it's my first
: >offense."
: > It might have been your "collar's" first arrest...but it would be very
: >surprising indeed that any shoplifter would get caught on the first try.
: > What difference does it make how many times someone has commited a
: >crime? They might have some real problems with shoplifting even before
: >they actually go through with the act. Such as casing out a store,
: >associating with other kids who think shoplifting is really cool, and
: >giving a lot of positive feedback to those kids bold enough to actually
: >go through with it.
: This last Friday (June 19th) I had the unpleasant task of escorting my
: two teen-aged daughters to the local court house where they had to
: face the charge of violating the local curfew ordinance. (Guilty,
: $75.00 fine for each of them, plus a 12 hour class, plus an
: educational trip to the local county jail. The total cost to this dad
: was $210.00 plus the loss of one nights sleep to bail them out after
: the arrest, plus the loss of 1/2 day at work to go to court.)
: Anyhow, in front of us was a mom and her 15 year old daughter. The
: daughter had just plead guilty to a charge of shoplifting. I was
: standing behind the village attorney as she gave instructions to the
: mom and her daughter. The village attorney gave the daughter the
: paperwork and then turned to the mom and said, "We know that by the
: time a teen is arrested for their first shoplifting charge, they have
: already shoplifted an average of 49 times. Now it's true that this
: number is an average, but that's what our statistics say. I'm telling
: you this because if you think that this is the first time that your
: daughter has been out shoplifting, you are seriously deluding
: yourself."
: It was interesting to me that the daughter squirmed but couldn't bring
: I don't know.
: What I'm trying to say is this:
: 1) Probability says that this was not the first time. Probability says
: that it was the 49th time.
: 2) By looking at her stuff, you may not be able to tell if your
: daughter is stealing things. This kind of theft is done to enhance
: peer prestige not as a need for acquisition.
: 3) I believe that it is very important to treat it gently. It is
: indeed criminal behavior, but it is not done out of criminal intent.
: My belief is that you should allow the first time offender to look
: over the line at what could happen if they really were a criminal.
: This gives them a chance to back off. It is my belief that if you
: treat them as a criminal on the first offense (to scare them straight
: so to speak) then you run a very real risk of making them view
: themselves as having irrevocably crossed that line.
: And if they view themselves as having crossed that line, then they are
Marie Houck
In article <6n1ile$6mm$4...@haus.efn.org>, ela...@garcia.efn.org (Elaine
Gallegos) wrote:
> aus.efn.org> <35991e5c...@news.alt.net>:
> Distribution:
>
>
> The behavior of the kid is a whole lot easier to understand that that of
> the parent. The kid steals. That's a problem. What the heck DIFFERENCE
> does it make if she doesn't do it that much?
>
Elaine: I read through George's post a second and a third time. There
was NOTHING THERE regarding the mother's behavior, so how do you know what
she did or did not do. So how can you not understand her behavior -- when
you have no idea what it was?
Marie Houck
janelaw
I actually was just in this situation!
My 15 yo was not arrested, though.
I grounded her from phone, tv, going out, etc. for a month. It
was worse for me than it was for her. I don't know how you will
take it for more than a month. I wish I had included more work
as part of her punishment.
If the concert is at the end of July, you have plenty of time to
let her earn the reprieve. Why don't you tell her that you will
take her as long as she does all the yard work/dishes/laundry
for a month? That way you won't feel like you are being
hustled. It makes the decision hers. Just make sure your terms
include her doing the job without having to be reminded 16
times.
Kristan Geissel wrote:
>
> My daughter, 15, has been going through some tough times judgement-wise
> and this culmulated in her being arrested for shoplifting two weekends
> ago.
>
> snip
> She is grounded from all activities which might take her out of my
> sight and she has accepted this gracefully, also.
>
> The problem is that she wants to go to a concert at the end of July
> that I would have to go to also since it is out of town. We would
> be taking one of her 'responsible' friends.
>
>snip
>
> Part of me wants to give her the benefit of the doubt but I have
> done that in the past with continuing disasters. Part of me wants
> to go ahead with plans because of the grief that she will create if
> she can't go and my fear that she may just take off.
>
> That's all, folks. Any advice would be appreciated.
>
> Kristan
George
ela...@garcia.efn.org (Elaine Gallegos) wrote:
>aus.efn.org> <35991e5c...@news.alt.net>:
>Distribution:
>
>
> The behavior of the kid is a whole lot easier to understand that that of
>the parent. The kid steals. That's a problem. What the heck DIFFERENCE
>does it make if she doesn't do it that much?
Dear Elaine,
I'm not sure if your comment is aimed at my post because I believe
that my post really supported your statement about frequency more than
anyone else's.
Well, no matter.
My point was really only this: Overly harsh reaction to any first time
offense may have the undesirable effect of alienating the teen. It is
my opinion that an errant teen needs to be shown the consequences of
their actions in a manner that allows them to remedy the situation on
their own.
It is my opinion that they are still learning this stuff. They don't
know what the consequences are and it's our responsibility as parents
and as adults to convey the message in a manner that teaches the
lesson. That takes intelligence on the part of the educator.
Unfortunately, it is too easy to try to teach the lesson as though the
teen were an adult and to mete out an adult punishment (ie, this is
criminal behaviour, therefore you shall be treated like a criminal). I
believe that this is more likely to alienate the teen than to teach
them the lesson that they need.
Elaine Gallegos
aus.efn.org> <35999352...@news.altopia.net>:
Distribution:
George (geo...@alt.anonymous.messages) wrote:
: ela...@garcia.efn.org (Elaine Gallegos) wrote:
: > The behavior of the kid is a whole lot easier to understand that that of
: >the parent. The kid steals. That's a problem. What the heck DIFFERENCE
: >does it make if she doesn't do it that much?
: Dear Elaine,
: I'm not sure if your comment is aimed at my post because I believe
: that my post really supported your statement about frequency more than
: anyone else's.
No, George. I was refering to Kristan. I am very grateful for your post.
The discussion SHOULD have been about shoplifting in general. Kristan was
focusing on developing the idea that her daughter's
shoplifting as an isolated incident, and just a terrible mistake.
You were very kind to open everyone eyes to the fact that by the time
the thief is caught, they have done on average many many crimes.
: My point was really only this: Overly harsh reaction to any first time
: offense may have the undesirable effect of alienating the teen.
At what point do you believe a reaction is overly harsh?
: It is
: my opinion that an errant teen needs to be shown the consequences of
: their actions in a manner that allows them to remedy the situation on
: their own.
Yes, I agree. The teen should have to make ammends. I'm glad too that
the parents are also being held responsible for the acts of their
juvenile children.
It can be a really wonderful learning experience to have to clean up a
royal mess that they made of things.
: It is my opinion that they are still learning this stuff. They don't
: know what the consequences are and it's our responsibility as parents
: and as adults to convey the message in a manner that teaches the
: lesson. That takes intelligence on the part of the educator.
Yes, that's true, and really all that I was trying to say to Kristan.
Just punishment alone may or may not end shoplifting.
Furthermore, you are right that at heart, teen shoplifting is a lot more
about peer pressure than it is about material gain.
: Unfortunately, it is too easy to try to teach the lesson as though the
: teen were an adult and to mete out an adult punishment (ie, this is
: criminal behaviour, therefore you shall be treated like a criminal).
With that, I'd have to say that I disagree. I think that anyone who
commits a criminal act should be treated as a criminal. I believe that it
does not serve the teen to give them an exemption.
With an adult, you can let it go at that. With a teen, I belive that it
is also important to examine the context in which they did the crime.
For instance, that they get a lot of attention and status within their
peer group for stealing. As we were discussing, stealing is never just
called stealing. They always use a gentler sounding term for it...such a
"liberating" something. Within some teen peer groups, stealing is not
actually considered to be "wrong".
The teen will either continue to steal, or will encourage stealing in
others if their thinking about stealing cannot be changed.
: I
: believe that this is more likely to alienate the teen than to teach
: them the lesson that they need.
You mean that the kid will just get ticked off and stop listening to
you? That really seems like a different kind of problem to me.
Helen Arias
In article s...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net, janelaw <jan...@excite.com> writes:
}I actually was just in this situation!
}My 15 yo was not arrested, though.
}
}I grounded her from phone, tv, going out, etc. for a month. It
}was worse for me than it was for her. I don't know how you will
}take it for more than a month. I wish I had included more work
}as part of her punishment.
The child MUST understand that the incident won't be tolerated at all.
Simply doing more chores is not the answer.
}
}If the concert is at the end of July, you have plenty of time to
}let her earn the reprieve.
Huh? Her daughter committed a "crime" and one month is plenty of
time to earn a reprieve? I don't think so.
Why don't you tell her that you will
}take her as long as she does all the yard work/dishes/laundry
}for a month?
Because these are things that a family member already should
be doing as part of the regular chores. My daughter does all of
these things with her brother. It's called, being a member of
the family.
That way you won't feel like you are being
}hustled.
There's no feeling hustled when the parent simply says, "No, you aren't
going to the concert."
>It makes the decision hers.
She made the BAD choice of stealing in a department store. Her judgement
and credibility is seriously clouded right now. Mom needs to take
those "choices" away for a bit to get her daughter to understand the
consequences of her behavior.
Just make sure your terms
}include her doing the job without having to be reminded 16
}times.
When I dish out a certain punishment to my daughter or son, they
are aware that if I have to "remind" them, the punishment will
be extended by another day or week.
H.
Kristan Geissel
In article <6n5oq8$s...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>,
janelaw <jan...@excite.com> wrote:
>I actually was just in this situation!
>My 15 yo was not arrested, though.
>
>I grounded her from phone, tv, going out, etc. for a month. It
>was worse for me than it was for her. I don't know how you will
>take it for more than a month. I wish I had included more work
>as part of her punishment.
I don't know how I am going to stand it for more than a month, either.
My parents are already taking her on as an employee so using them
to "babysit" may be too much to ask of them. As far as work goes,
I feel the same as Helen does - certain jobs come with the territory
of being a resident in the household.
>If the concert is at the end of July, you have plenty of time to
>let her earn the reprieve. Why don't you tell her that you will
>take her as long as she does all the yard work/dishes/laundry
>for a month? That way you won't feel like you are being
>hustled. It makes the decision hers. Just make sure your terms
>include her doing the job without having to be reminded 16
>times.
>
As you may have seen in earlier responses to my original post, it
was the general opinion that a concert was just a little too much
in light of her illegal activity. I deep-down knew this but just
needed the support of other adults in the universe.
Again, things are going well at this point but the weather has
gotten sunny here in Seattle and I hate sunny, warm weather. I
hope that it cools off soon, preferably with rain thrown in :)
Kristan
susaneva
janelaw wrote:
>
> I actually was just in this situation!
> My 15 yo was not arrested, though.
>
> I grounded her from phone, tv, going out, etc. for a month. It
> was worse for me than it was for her. I don't know how you will
> take it for more than a month. I wish I had included more work
> as part of her punishment.
>
> let her earn the reprieve. Why don't you tell her that you will
> take her as long as she does all the yard work/dishes/laundry
> for a month? That way you won't feel like you are being
> hustled. It makes the decision hers. Just make sure your terms
> include her doing the job without having to be reminded 16
> times.
>
> >
> > My daughter, 15, has been going through some tough times judgement-wise
> > and this culmulated in her being arrested for shoplifting two weekends
> > ago.
> >
> > snip
> > She is grounded from all activities which might take her out of my
> > sight and she has accepted this gracefully, also.
> >
> > The problem is that she wants to go to a concert at the end of July
> > that I would have to go to also since it is out of town. We would
> > be taking one of her 'responsible' friends.
> >
> >snip
> >
> > Part of me wants to give her the benefit of the doubt but I have
> > done that in the past with continuing disasters. Part of me wants
> > to go ahead with plans because of the grief that she will create if
> > she can't go and my fear that she may just take off.
> >
> > That's all, folks. Any advice would be appreciated.
> >
> > Kristan
Hi Kristan.
I went through this two years ago with my daughter - not once but TWICE.
They let her off with Community Service the first time - I guess that
wasn't enough of a message. The second time she was arrested. THAT
made the point loud and clear and I've had no trouble since. It was a
hell of an ordeal to go through for an eyeshadow kit!
I think you've done all the right things with the grounding, etc. I
would be inclined to use the concert as a behavior modification tool -
i.e. if she wants to go badly enough she'll be willing to model some
pretty perfect behavior in the next few weeks. If you work, this is an
opportune time for you to get some help around the house. Make her "in
charge" of the housework for the next four weeks (maybe she already is,
I don't know).
What your daughter did was wrong, but I don't think it's a harbinger of
things to come. Many teens try this, just as they try smoking and
drinking. They don't all end up chain-smoking alcoholics. I'm not
saying blow it off or make light of it, but don't automatically assume
that she's headed for the skids because of one shoplifting experience.
The humiliation of going to court and being punished in whatever way is
usually enough to get kids to stop this behavior. They're testing the
limits. If the consequences are unpleasant enough, they won't generally
be back for a second helping!
Good luck. She'll be OK, and maybe the two of you can enjoy the concert
together as a reward for her showing exemplary behavior throughout July.
Kristan Geissel
In article <359BE7...@cancerboard.ca>,
susaneva <susa...@cancerboard.ca> wrote:
(story deleted for brevity's sake - everybody's heard it by now - Kristan)
>
>Hi Kristan.
>
>I went through this two years ago with my daughter - not once but TWICE.
>They let her off with Community Service the first time - I guess that
>wasn't enough of a message. The second time she was arrested. THAT
>made the point loud and clear and I've had no trouble since. It was a
>hell of an ordeal to go through for an eyeshadow kit!
>
>I think you've done all the right things with the grounding, etc. I
>would be inclined to use the concert as a behavior modification tool -
>i.e. if she wants to go badly enough she'll be willing to model some
>pretty perfect behavior in the next few weeks. If you work, this is an
>opportune time for you to get some help around the house. Make her "in
>charge" of the housework for the next four weeks (maybe she already is,
>I don't know).
The major problem was that I knew I could ensure good behavior for the
month leading up to the concert but I had no guarantees for after
that date. My daughter like most children is a jewel when she wants
something. Putting money upfront and expending the energy to get to
the concert (about 100 miles east of Seattle) and spending the night
in some little town where all the other concert goers are, did not
seem like something I wanted to do (after I thought it over and heard
from this group) for someone who had been arrested for shoplifting.
>What your daughter did was wrong, but I don't think it's a harbinger of
>things to come. Many teens try this, just as they try smoking and
>drinking. They don't all end up chain-smoking alcoholics. I'm not
>saying blow it off or make light of it, but don't automatically assume
>that she's headed for the skids because of one shoplifting experience.
>The humiliation of going to court and being punished in whatever way is
>usually enough to get kids to stop this behavior. They're testing the
>limits. If the consequences are unpleasant enough, they won't generally
>be back for a second helping!
I intend to make the consequences unpleasent. We are in the mill for
something that the King County Prosecutor's Office calls the Diversion
Process. Adults get together will the family of the child (if a first
offense and if a misdemeanor) and come up with some sort of service
and/or fine for the child. Nothing is entered on the permenant record
if the contract is met. This would be ideal IF it makes an impact.
And I go back and forth on whether or not she is feeling remorseful
or not. But I am tired now so nothing looks hopeful.
Thanks for your response to my post.
Kristan
Tami Cooper
I'm glad that you are getting your life back in good standings you
deserve the best in life