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Boys Are Spanked More Than Girls

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Marg Petersen

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Mar 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/20/98
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In article <6evjhr$h...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Carol Ann Hemingway <lef...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In <6evcgv$m1q$9...@dosa.alt.net> bost...@NOSPAM.alt.net writes:
>>
>>LaVonne Carlson <carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Children subjected to any and >>all forms of corporal punishment are
>overrepresented in the criminal >>and juvenile offender population.
>Thus, while not all children >>subjected to corporal punishment are
>represented in these populations, >>the probability increases in the
>presence of corporal punishment.
>>
>>Or perhaps children who lack respect for legitimate authority are more
>likely>both to be subjected to corporal punishment and to wind up in
>the criminal and>juvenile offender popilation. Causality is tricky.
>>
>>-- bostnbob
>
> My children were NEVER SPANKED.... One of them is in
> a pre-med program on scolarship, and the other is a
> high school sophomore involved in Computer Club and
> martial arts. They don't drink, take drugs and have
> definite plans on how NOT to co-create. Authority
> was mostly maternal.

NONE of our 3 children were ever spanked either. It just seemed
SO cruel to inflict that form of punishment on them. What was
the intent, I asked myself? To scare them into behaving? I
decided a Loooooong time ago that that wasn't what I wanted to
DO to my kids. None of them has ever used drugs, none of them
even drinks and they are all successful and productive law-abiding
citizens. One has a BA in Electrical Engineering and runs his
own company, another has 3 BAs and is finishing up his Masters
in Math. The other is in second year college and as yet, not
decided on a major. Works as the head consultant on the computer
helpdesk for the University though and gets paid VERY well.
Authority was both maternal AND paternal and neither spanked.

> Yes, I realize that one case does not a nation prove.
>
> Lefty
>>

Well, there's another one. :-)

Marg

--
Marg Petersen Member PSEB: Official Sonneteer JLP-SOL
god...@peak.org http://www.peak.org/~goddess
"At ease Ensign, before you sprain something." - Capt. Janeway

bost...@nospam.alt.net

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Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
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Carol Ann Hemingway

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Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
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My children were NEVER SPANKED.... One of them is in


a pre-med program on scolarship, and the other is a
high school sophomore involved in Computer Club and
martial arts. They don't drink, take drugs and have
definite plans on how NOT to co-create. Authority
was mostly maternal.

Yes, I realize that one case does not a nation prove.

Lefty
>


Emma

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Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
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Marg Petersen wrote:

> In article <6evjhr$h...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
> Carol Ann Hemingway <lef...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> NONE of our 3 children were ever spanked either. It just seemed
> SO cruel to inflict that form of punishment on them. What was
> the intent, I asked myself? To scare them into behaving? I
> decided a Loooooong time ago that that wasn't what I wanted to
> DO to my kids. None of them has ever used drugs, none of them
> even drinks and they are all successful and productive law-abiding
> citizens. One has a BA in Electrical Engineering and runs his
> own company, another has 3 BAs and is finishing up his Masters
> in Math. The other is in second year college and as yet, not
> decided on a major. Works as the head consultant on the computer
> helpdesk for the University though and gets paid VERY well.
> Authority was both maternal AND paternal and neither spanked.
>

> > Yes, I realize that one case does not a nation prove.
> >
> > Lefty
> >>
>

> Well, there's another one. :-)

And I've met a few through work...some single mothers too (shock
horror)....people who refuse to hit their child in the name of discipline.
Fine balanced kids they are too.

I was thinking about this the other day...about whether I would/could smack
or otherwise hit my child as a form of discipline. The more I thought about
it, the more bizarre...nay....sick it seemed to be. I used to think I can
understand why parents slap their children....now I cant. The idea of
grabbing a human being half my size or less, then carrying on by hitting
them, repeatedly or otherwise, just fails to have any place in my
understanding. I cannot reconcile the 'fact' that physically hurting a child
like this is in their best interests.

My father used to hit me with sticks, belts, fibre-glass car aerials, nylon
washing lines....anything that came to hand, really. I recall my step mother
throwing things at me on a regular basis....a heavy glass ashtray on one
occasion. Being hit with a wire hairbrush was also a common occurance. I
think the only thing they taught me by hitting me was how to manage your
tolerance to pain. I KNOW it didnt teach me respect.

Speaking with my father a few years ago, he failed to see that what he had
done was abusive. He actually told me that his hitting me had been "...for
your own good."

Go figure.

Marg Petersen

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Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
to

In article <35138C8E...@globalnet.co.uk>,
>> Well, there's another one. :-)
>
>And I've met a few through work...some single mothers too (shock
>horror)....people who refuse to hit their child in the name of discipline.
>Fine balanced kids they are too.

Yup, the secret is in the raising, not the presence of hitting.

>I was thinking about this the other day...about whether I would/could smack
>or otherwise hit my child as a form of discipline. The more I thought about
>it, the more bizarre...nay....sick it seemed to be. I used to think I can
>understand why parents slap their children....now I cant. The idea of
>grabbing a human being half my size or less, then carrying on by hitting
>them, repeatedly or otherwise, just fails to have any place in my
>understanding. I cannot reconcile the 'fact' that physically hurting a child
>like this is in their best interests.

It most definitely *isn't* in their best interest. Sure, it MAY
stop the inappropriate behavior (for a time), but what about the
inappropriate behavior that the parent doing the spanking has
exhibited? It certainly gives a mixed message to the child being
spanked, IMO.

>My father used to hit me with sticks, belts, fibre-glass car aerials, nylon
>washing lines....anything that came to hand, really. I recall my step mother
>throwing things at me on a regular basis....a heavy glass ashtray on one
>occasion. Being hit with a wire hairbrush was also a common occurance. I
>think the only thing they taught me by hitting me was how to manage your
>tolerance to pain. I KNOW it didnt teach me respect.

Absolutely! I was raised pretty much the same. I didn't get
spanked very often but my brother did. Most of what he learned
was FEAR of the parent doing the spanking. And so did I. It
certainly didn't teach us anything of a positive nature, IMO.

>Speaking with my father a few years ago, he failed to see that what he had
>done was abusive. He actually told me that his hitting me had been "...for
>your own good."
>
>Go figure.

Yeah, I've heard that one before. :-( Actually, I personally
believer that spanking/hitting ones' kids is the act of a parent
who isn't intelligent to figure out another way to handle their
child's inappropriate behavior. That, or a parent who is too
lazy to bother finding another way. When a parent is faced with
a child's inappropriate behavior, the *easiest* thing to do is
to hit/spank. It takes self control, intelligence and the desire
to actually *teach* the child something positive to refrain from
lashing out. The ONLY thing that spanking/hitting a child does
is to allow the parent to express their anger in as convenient
a way (for the parent). It has nothing to do with the child's
own good or is in the child's best interests to spank or hit.

Gerald Alborn

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Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
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Emma <po...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>I was thinking about this the other day...about whether I would/could
smack
>or otherwise hit my child as a form of discipline. The more I thought
about
>it, the more bizarre...nay....sick it seemed to be. I used to think I
can
>understand why parents slap their children....now I cant. The idea of
>grabbing a human being half my size or less, then carrying on by
hitting
>them, repeatedly or otherwise, just fails to have any place in my
>understanding. I cannot reconcile the 'fact' that physically hurting a
child
>like this is in their best interests.
>
>My father used to hit me with sticks, belts, fibre-glass car aerials,
nylon
>washing lines....anything that came to hand, really. I recall my step
mother
>throwing things at me on a regular basis....a heavy glass ashtray on
one
>occasion. Being hit with a wire hairbrush was also a common occurance.
I
>think the only thing they taught me by hitting me was how to manage
your
>tolerance to pain. I KNOW it didnt teach me respect.
>
>Speaking with my father a few years ago, he failed to see that what he
had
>done was abusive. He actually told me that his hitting me had been "...
for
>your own good."
>

Emma, in case you are interested, there is a book by that very title "For
Your Own Good." It was written by Alice Miller and it's very
enlightening reading. To briefly quote from a few pages of her work:

" We will continue to infect the next generation...as long as we claim
that this kind of upbringing is harmless. It is here that we experience
the harmful aftereffects of our survival, because we can protect
ourselves from a poison only if it is clearly labelled as such, not if it
is mixed, as it were, with ice cream advertised as being "For Your Own
Good."

"...the general public is still far from realizing that our earliest
experiences unfailingly affect society as a whole; that psychoses, drug
addiction, and criminality are encoded expressions of these experiences.
"

"Since training in many cultures begins in infancy during the initial
symbiotic relationship between mother and child, this early conditioning
makes it virtually impossible for the child to discover what is actually
happening to him. The child's dependence on his or her parent's love
also makes it impossible in later years to recognize these
traumatizations, which often remain hidden behind the early idealization
of the parents for the rest of the child's life."

"A father who was trained to be obedient at a very early age may on
occasion take cruel and violent measures to force his child to be
obedient in order to satisfy his own need to be respected for the first
time in his life."

"Among the adult's true motives we find:

1. The unconscious need to pass on to others the humiliation one has
undergone oneself.
2. The need to find an outlet for repressed affect.
3. The need to possess and have at one's disposal a vital object to
manipulate.
4. Self defense: ie., the need to idealize one's childhood and one's
parents by dogmatically by applying the parent's pedagogical principles
to one's own children.
5. Fear of freedom.
6. Fear of the reappearance of what one has repressed which one
reencounters in one's child and must try to stamp out, having killed it
in oneself earlier.
7. Revenge for the pain one has suffered."

" The reason why parents mistreat their children has less to do with
character and temperament than with the fact that they were mistreated
themselves and were not permitted to defend themselves."

"The child's intense anger at the parents, being strictly forbidden,
is simply deflected onto other people and onto himself, but not done away
with. Instead, because it is permissible to discharge this anger onto
one's own children, it spreads over the entire world like a plague."

Quoted from Alice Miller's "For Your own Good
Hidden Cruelty in Childrearing and the Roots of
Violence"

-Jerry-


Emma

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Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
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Marg Petersen wrote:

So true. Like the fact that violence is OK if there is a reason for it. Like the
fact that it's OK to force smaller/weaker people to do what you want by the use
of force....like the fact that it is justifiable to display authority by
violence. Would account for my disrespect for authority, now.


Brenda Smeby

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Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
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On 21 Mar 1998 05:34:51 GMT, lef...@ix.netcom.com(Carol Ann
Hemingway) wrote:

>In <6evcgv$m1q$9...@dosa.alt.net> bost...@NOSPAM.alt.net writes:
>>
>>LaVonne Carlson <carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Children subjected to any and >>all forms of corporal punishment are
>overrepresented in the criminal >>and juvenile offender population.
>Thus, while not all children >>subjected to corporal punishment are
>represented in these populations, >>the probability increases in the
>presence of corporal punishment.
>>>

Actually, there is a deeper cause. Over 40% of juveniles in the
offender population show a well below average level of education.
Teens (age 13 thru 16) consistantly show an education level of 4th
grade or lower. The problem is not corporal punishment, but lack of
education.


>>Or perhaps children who lack respect for legitimate authority are more
>likely>both to be subjected to corporal punishment and to wind up in
>the criminal and>juvenile offender popilation. Causality is tricky.
>>

Quite possible.

Remove "nospam" to reply via email

If Life was a Highway, I'd be in a ditch

Bright Blessings
Brenda Smeby
ICQ#4128184


Carol Ann Hemingway

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Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
to

In <35138C8E...@globalnet.co.uk> Emma <po...@globalnet.co.uk>
writes:
>
>
>
>Marg Petersen wrote:
>
>> In article <6evjhr$h...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
>> Carol Ann Hemingway <lef...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> >In <6evcgv$m1q$9...@dosa.alt.net> bost...@NOSPAM.alt.net writes:
>> >>
>> >>LaVonne Carlson <carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>Children subjected to any and >>all forms of corporal punishment
are
>> >overrepresented in the criminal >>and juvenile offender population.
>> >Thus, while not all children >>subjected to corporal punishment are
>> >represented in these populations, >>the probability increases in
the
>> >presence of corporal punishment.
>> >>
>> >>Or perhaps children who lack respect for legitimate authority are
more
>> >likely>both to be subjected to corporal punishment and to wind up
in
>> >the criminal and>juvenile offender popilation. Causality is
tricky.
>> >>
>> >>-- bostnbob
>> >
>> > My children were NEVER SPANKED.... One of them is in
>> > a pre-med program on scolarship, and the other is a
>> > high school sophomore involved in Computer Club and
>> > martial arts. They don't drink, take drugs and have
>> > definite plans on how NOT to co-create. Authority
>> > was mostly maternal.
>>
>> NONE of our 3 children were ever spanked either. It just seemed
>> SO cruel to inflict that form of punishment on them. What was
>> the intent, I asked myself? To scare them into behaving? I
>> decided a Loooooong time ago that that wasn't what I wanted to
>> DO to my kids. None of them has ever used drugs, none of them
>> even drinks and they are all successful and productive law-abiding
>> citizens. One has a BA in Electrical Engineering and runs his
>> own company, another has 3 BAs and is finishing up his Masters
>> in Math. The other is in second year college and as yet, not
>> decided on a major. Works as the head consultant on the computer
>> helpdesk for the University though and gets paid VERY well.
>> Authority was both maternal AND paternal and neither spanked.
>>
>> > Yes, I realize that one case does not a nation prove.
>> >
>> > Lefty

>> >>
>>
>> Well, there's another one. :-)
>
>And I've met a few through work...some single mothers too (shock
>horror)....people who refuse to hit their child in the name of
discipline.>Fine balanced kids they are too.
>
>I was thinking about this the other day...about whether I would/could
smack>or otherwise hit my child as a form of discipline. The more I
thought about>it, the more bizarre...nay....sick it seemed to be. I
used to think I can>understand why parents slap their children....now I
cant. The idea of>grabbing a human being half my size or less, then
carrying on by hitting>them, repeatedly or otherwise, just fails to
have any place in my>understanding. I cannot reconcile the 'fact' that
physically hurting a child>like this is in their best interests.


---------
That about says it all. When humans think with their
soul....that is the result.
---------------


>
>My father used to hit me with sticks, belts, fibre-glass car aerials,
nylon>washing lines....anything that came to hand, really. I recall my
step mother>throwing things at me on a regular basis....a heavy glass
ashtray on one>occasion. Being hit with a wire hairbrush was also a
common occurance. I>think the only thing they taught me by hitting me
was how to manage your>tolerance to pain. I KNOW it didnt teach me
respect.
>
>Speaking with my father a few years ago, he failed to see that what he
had>done was abusive. He actually told me that his hitting me had been

"...for>your own good."
>
>Go figure.
>

>> Those who cannot find the words to love their children
into adulthood, resort to the strap or the hand, or
the fist. The better course of action is to learn how
to love them up....give them roots and wings. If they
KNOW you love them, they can move mountains. If you
hit them.....they will always wonder what love means.

Carol

FistofFury

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Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
to

>>Until the day they grow up and damn near kill you when they learn to
fight back. I should have done that to my father had I not feared him.
I never did respect him, but I think the feeling was mutual.
Well why didnt you? You should defend yourself. Fortunately I was never in
such a situation, but I wouldve fought if I was.

Chris

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Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
to

bost...@NOSPAM.alt.net wrote:
: LaVonne Carlson <carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:

: >Children subjected to any and
: >all forms of corporal punishment are overrepresented in the criminal
: >and juvenile offender population. Thus, while not all children
: >subjected to corporal punishment are represented in these populations,
: >the probability increases in the presence of corporal punishment.
: >

: Or perhaps children who lack respect for legitimate authority are more likely
: both to be subjected to corporal punishment and to wind up in the criminal and
: juvenile offender popilation. Causality is tricky.

True, but if this is the case, then it is clear that corporal
punishment was ineffective in training these children not to become
criminals and that alternative methods need to be explored instead.

Causality is indeed tricky, and correlational data alone do not
constitute proof of causation. However, a cause-and-effect relationship
between spanking and the various long-term negative effects which have
been found to correlate with it (Strassberg et al., 1994; Straus, 1991) is
the most parsimonious explanation for the available data taken as a whole.
A recent study by Straus et al. (1997) has lent this interpretation added
weight by showing that spanking appears to exhibit a dose-dependent
negative effect over time. Children who were spanked the most at the
beginning of the study showed, as a group, the most increases in lying,
cheating and antisocial behaviors two years later. This is consistent
with a cause-and-effect relationship between spanking and long-term
behavior problems.

Chris

REFERENCES

Strassberg, Z.; Dodge, K.A.; Petit, G.S. & Bates, J.E. 1994. "Spanking
in the Home and Children's Subsequent Aggression Toward Kindergarten
Peers." _Development and Psychopathology_, 6:445-461.

Straus, M.A. 1991. "Discipline and Deviance: Physical Punishment of
Children and Violence and Other Crime in Adulthood." _Social Problems_
38(2):133-155

Straus, M.A.; Sugarman, D.B. and Giles-Sims, J. 1997. "Corporal
Punishment by Parents and Subsequent Anti-Social Behavior of Children"
_Archives of Pediatrics & Adolescent Medicine_ 151(8):761-767.


Chris

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Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
to

Baba Booey (baba...@howard-stern.com) wrote:

: On Sat, 21 Mar 1998 03:39:01 GMT, bost...@NOSPAM.alt.net wrote:

: >Or perhaps children who lack respect for legitimate authority are more likely
: >both to be subjected to corporal punishment and to wind up in the criminal and
: >juvenile offender popilation. Causality is tricky.

: Alas, it's hard for a child to learn respect when s/he is not
: respected either.

Small children are watching their elders like hawks, always
looking for cues on how to behave as members of their particular culture.
It is shocking and sad to see how rudely some parents treat their
toddlers, especially when these same parents then argue that they "have
to" spank their kids because they are so ill-mannered (!)

I urge everyone to be on their best behavior and employ their most
courtly manners when dealing with toddlers. For one thing, the children
will adore you for it, since they are typically rather starved for respect
from adults. For another thing, you will find that if you respect them,
they will respect you back, and will be *much* more likely to do what you
need them to do on occasions where you simply have to have things your
way. And best of all, they will pay you back with interest may times over
as they model their behavior towards you on your behavior towards them!

Chris

Chris

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Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
to

Emma (po...@globalnet.co.uk) wrote:
[snip]
: The idea of

: grabbing a human being half my size or less, then carrying on by hitting
: them, repeatedly or otherwise, just fails to have any place in my
: understanding. I cannot reconcile the 'fact' that physically hurting a child
: like this is in their best interests.

There is, in fact, no empirical evidence of any measurable
long-term benefit to the child from spanking - just a lot of cultural
mythology.

: My father used to hit me with sticks, belts, fibre-glass car aerials, nylon


: washing lines....anything that came to hand, really. I recall my step mother
: throwing things at me on a regular basis....a heavy glass ashtray on one
: occasion. Being hit with a wire hairbrush was also a common occurance. I
: think the only thing they taught me by hitting me was how to manage your
: tolerance to pain. I KNOW it didnt teach me respect.

"Respect" is just a euphemistic code-word for "fear" when it is
used to justify hitting children. Everyone knows that *they* don't
"respect" bigger stronger people who hit and hurt them just because they
hit and hurt them - quite the contrary.

: Speaking with my father a few years ago, he failed to see that what he had


: done was abusive. He actually told me that his hitting me had been "...for
: your own good."

Child abusers virtually never recognize their own behavior as
abusive. "Abuse" is always something someone else does.

: Go figure.

Like the pretense about "respect" being won by hitting, the claim
that hitting children benefits them is commonly trotted out to justify
parental domestic violence against children. But no one has ever managed
to demonstrate any evidence of measurable long-term benefit from spanking.
All of the available evidence is either inconclusive, or else consistent
with long-term negative effects. Spanking serves the needs of parents,
not the needs of children.

Chris

Chris

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Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
to

Marg Petersen (god...@kira.peak.org) wrote:
: Emma <po...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
[snip]
: >I was thinking about this the other day...about whether I would/could smack

: >or otherwise hit my child as a form of discipline. The more I thought about
: >it, the more bizarre...nay....sick it seemed to be. I used to think I can
: >understand why parents slap their children....now I cant. The idea of
: >grabbing a human being half my size or less, then carrying on by hitting
: >them, repeatedly or otherwise, just fails to have any place in my
: >understanding. I cannot reconcile the 'fact' that physically hurting a child
: >like this is in their best interests.

: It most definitely *isn't* in their best interest. Sure, it MAY
: stop the inappropriate behavior (for a time), but what about the
: inappropriate behavior that the parent doing the spanking has
: exhibited? It certainly gives a mixed message to the child being
: spanked, IMO.

Children learn how to conduct themselves by observing how their
elders behave. Thus it makes sense that children who are hit the most by
their parents also hit other children the most at school (Strassberg et
al., 1994) commit more assaults on nonfamily members as teenagers (Straus,
1991) and are more likely to be domestic violence perpetrators as adults
(Kantor & Straus, 1994).

Boys *are* spanked more than girls at all age levels (Straus,
1994). If spanking is a risk factor for later aggressive behavior,
including domestic violence, it would make sense for feminists to be
opposed to spanking. But since women do most of the spanking, opposing
the practice would mean defining women as perpetrators rather than as
helpless victims at all levels. Hence, with some praiseworth exceptions
such as Kate Millet, the women's movement is largely silent on the subject
of routine, normative violence against children.

Chris

REFERENCES

Kantor, G.K. and Straus, M.A. 1994. "Corporal Punishment of Adolescents
By Parents: A Risk Factor in the Epidemiology of Depression, Suicide,
Alcohol Abuse, Child Abuse, and Wife Beating." _Adolescence_
29(115):543-561.

Strassberg, Z.; Dodge, K.A.; Petit, G.S. & Bates, J.E. 1994. "Spanking
in the Home and Children's Subsequent Aggression Toward Kindergarten
Peers." _Development and Psychopathology_, 6:445-461.

Straus, M.A. 1991. "Discipline and Deviance: Physical Punishment of
Children and Violence and Other Crime in Adulthood." _Social Problems_
38(2):133-155

Straus, M.A. 1994. _Beating The Devil Out Of Them: Corporal Punishment
In American Families_. New York, NY: Lexington Books.

Donna

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Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
to

Marg Petersen wrote:

> Emma wrote:


> >Marg Petersen wrote:

> >> Carol Ann Hemingway <lefty wrote:

> >> >>LaVonne Carlson wrote:


> >> >>>Children subjected to any and >>all forms of corporal punishment are
> >> >overrepresented in the criminal >>and juvenile offender population.

(snip)


> >> >>Or perhaps children who lack respect for legitimate authority are more
> >> >likely>both to be subjected to corporal punishment and to wind up in
> >> >the criminal and>juvenile offender popilation. Causality is tricky.

> >> > My children were NEVER SPANKED.... One of them is in
> >> > a pre-med program on scolarship, and the other is a
> >> > high school sophomore involved in Computer Club and
> >> > martial arts. They don't drink, take drugs and have
> >> > definite plans on how NOT to co-create. Authority
> >> > was mostly maternal.

> >> NONE of our 3 children were ever spanked either. It just seemed
> >> SO cruel to inflict that form of punishment on them. What was
> >> the intent, I asked myself? To scare them into behaving? I
> >> decided a Loooooong time ago that that wasn't what I wanted to
> >> DO to my kids. None of them has ever used drugs, none of them
> >> even drinks and they are all successful and productive law-abiding
> >> citizens. One has a BA in Electrical Engineering and runs his
> >> own company, another has 3 BAs and is finishing up his Masters
> >> in Math. The other is in second year college and as yet, not
> >> decided on a major. Works as the head consultant on the computer
> >> helpdesk for the University though and gets paid VERY well.
> >> Authority was both maternal AND paternal and neither spanked.

(snip)


:-( Actually, I personally
> believer that spanking/hitting ones' kids is the act of a parent
> who isn't intelligent to figure out another way to handle their
> child's inappropriate behavior. That, or a parent who is too
> lazy to bother finding another way. When a parent is faced with
> a child's inappropriate behavior, the *easiest* thing to do is
> to hit/spank. It takes self control, intelligence and the desire
> to actually *teach* the child something positive to refrain from
> lashing out. The ONLY thing that spanking/hitting a child does
> is to allow the parent to express their anger in as convenient
> a way (for the parent). It has nothing to do with the child's
> own good or is in the child's best interests to spank or hit.
>
> Marg

I don't agree with hitting/spanking/dragging/slapping a child. It
shows the stupidity of the parent----one who has never learned to deal
with their own frustrations and anger in an adult fashion. Do I always
act in an adult fashion myself? No; but I try. I can't say I've never
spanked my kids because, maybe not often, but I have. It has been on the
bottom with my bare hand, and even that I admit shows an immaturity I
had at the time. Kind of silly too, it was, because the few times I did
it, I can recall the child having diapers on, and 1)what did I think I
was teaching and 2) thru all that padding I'm sure they never even
felt it. Real stupid!

As I observe parents in public settings who are hitting/spanking their
kids, it's always a case of the parent being out of control. Sometimes
you can even see the parent egg the child on, just so the big adult can
hit. One situation I recall was really ironic in that the child hit
someone, so the mom says "hitting isn't nice" as she hits the child.

As a child I don't recall ever being spanked. I witnessed it with a
sister; but never myself was on the receiving end of it. It's
interesting to note, possibly, how today her home is much more chaotic
and filled with verbal abuse. Not sure if any conclusions can be made
from that or not.

It is great that people posting to this topic adhere to the no spanking
rule, and also attest to the effectiveness of such by looking at their
children's successess. But a question came to my mind: After having
been spanked/hit as a child, as some above have stated, how did you
succeed at growing into the good adults you are? It doesn't seem to be
whether you were or weren't spanked/hit as a child that determined your
outcomes. And you didn't or don't plan on using physical punishment with
your children. So what is it that makes one child end up in the court
system and another not, if spanking/hitting seems to play such an
important role?

Donna

Marg Petersen

unread,
Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
to

In article <35142A41...@artnet.com>, Donna <2b...@artnet.com> wrote:
>
> As a child I don't recall ever being spanked. I witnessed it with a
>sister; but never myself was on the receiving end of it. It's
>interesting to note, possibly, how today her home is much more chaotic
>and filled with verbal abuse. Not sure if any conclusions can be made
>from that or not.
>
> It is great that people posting to this topic adhere to the no spanking
>rule, and also attest to the effectiveness of such by looking at their
>children's successess. But a question came to my mind: After having
>been spanked/hit as a child, as some above have stated, how did you
>succeed at growing into the good adults you are? It doesn't seem to be
>whether you were or weren't spanked/hit as a child that determined your
>outcomes. And you didn't or don't plan on using physical punishment with
>your children. So what is it that makes one child end up in the court
>system and another not, if spanking/hitting seems to play such an
>important role?
>
> Donna

Good question. For myself (and I can only answer from my own
personal feelings and thoughts), although I wasn't spanked very
often (hardly ever as a matter of fact), I did, however, see my
brother being spanked quite often. That most definitely had an
impact on me. The first impact was of FEAR of the parent doing
the spanking. Respect certainly had nothing to do with it for
me. Secondly, the unreasonableness of the act (spanking) as it
pertained to my brother. (He was sometimes spanked for very
little reason. Perhaps the old "spank boys but not girls was
in action here. I really don't have the answer for that.)
Thirdly, since I cared a whole lot for my brother, I FELT for
him and what was happening to him. (We also talked a LOT about
his punishments after the fact.) A lot of my decision to NOT
spank MY kids came from those discussions. His feelings or
anger/rage at the parent doing the spanking. His feelings of
insecurity and incompetence that were a direct result of the
spankings. These *feelings* that he had, overrode any sense
of respect that the spankings were supposed to instill. He
had nothing but disdain for those spanking him and of course,
could hardly wait to get big enough to retaliate.

I never wanted my kids to ever feel that way toward ME or their
father. I wanted respect from my kids but I was aware enough
to realize that respect is *earned*. And since I felt that NO
respect was earned by spanking, I opted to NOT spank. It was
a risk (in a way) as I had NO model to go on. I did a lot of
reading on alternative methods of instilling proper behavior in
kids and I did a lot of listening to my kids and watching. I
questioned my OWN motives when I even FELT that I was coming
close to spanking. And I always found some other method to
deal with the situation.

I had people tell me that my kids would turn out to be axe
murderers and/or drug addicts. That they would have NO
respect for a parent who never spanked and that they would
NEVER have instilled in them a sense of right and wrong
and that they would be spoiled rotten kids.

This turned out to NOT be the case at all. What DID happen,
is that because I and their father never spanked but instead
talked to the child about their behavior, pointed out WHY
their behavior was not acceptable and offered rewards for
appropriate behavior (other than that they wouldn't get
spanked), our kids actually began to take responsibility
for their own behavior onto themselves. All 3 of our children
have a very heightened sense of inner morality. They behave
*properly* because they believe it is the "right thing to
do" rather than from fear of retaliation/punishment.

webg...@javanet.com

unread,
Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
to

In article <6evcgv$m1q$9...@dosa.alt.net>,
bost...@NOSPAM.alt.net wrote:

>
> LaVonne Carlson <carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> >Children subjected to any and
> >all forms of corporal punishment are overrepresented in the criminal
> >and juvenile offender population. Thus, while not all children
> >subjected to corporal punishment are represented in these populations,
> >the probability increases in the presence of corporal punishment.
> >
>
> Or perhaps children who lack respect for legitimate authority are more likely
> both to be subjected to corporal punishment and to wind up in the criminal and
> juvenile offender popilation. Causality is tricky.
>
> -- bostnbob
>
>
In either case, and simply put, it seems very bizarre to physically hit a
child in order to teach that child to conform to the norms of society...a
society which dictates that hitting another person is illegal.

Go figure!

Stacy Alexander

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

HyperMommy

unread,
Mar 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/21/98
to

Chris wrote:

> constitute proof of causation. However, a cause-and-effect relationship
> between spanking and the various long-term negative effects which have
> been found to correlate with it (Strassberg et al., 1994; Straus, 1991) is

So I guess if that's the case then me and my sister and my husband and everyone else
should be in jail? Yeah right.

The last six messages or so have been you non-spankers rah-rah'ing each other. Hope
you realize that the rest of us our out here laughing through your messages.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Denise Duggan
HyperMommy to Jimmy (10/93) & Joey (9/95)
Once and (probably) Future Student
Computer Programmer
and all around interesting person :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Frank Bloater

unread,
Mar 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/22/98
to

He who loves his son will
whip him often,
in order that he may rejoice at
the way he turns out.
Ecclesiasticus 30:1
Catholic Holy Bible RSV

Gerald Alborn

unread,
Mar 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/22/98
to

HyperMommy <dug...@nettally.com> wrote:
>
>Chris wrote:
>
>> constitute proof of causation. However, a cause-and-effect
relationship
>> between spanking and the various long-term negative effects which
have
>> been found to correlate with it (Strassberg et al., 1994; Straus,
1991) is
>
>So I guess if that's the case then me and my sister and my husband and
everyone else
>should be in jail? Yeah right.
>
>The last six messages or so have been you non-spankers rah-rah'ing each
other. Hope
>you realize that the rest of us our out here laughing through your
messages.
>

By all means, then clue everyone in on what you perceive to be funny in
all this.

-Jerry-

Emma

unread,
Mar 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/22/98
to

If a child lives with criticism, he learns to condemn.

If a child lives with hostility he learns to fight.

If a child lives with ridicule he learns to be shy.

If a child lives with shame he learns to be guilty.

If a child lives with tolerance he learns to be patient.

If a child lives with encouragement he learns to confidence.

If a child lives with praise he learns to appreciate.

If a child lives with fairness he learns justice.

If a child lives with security he learns to have faith.

If a child lives with approval he learns to like himself.

If a child lives with acceptance and friendship he learns to find love in
the world.

Roy

unread,
Mar 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/22/98
to

Lenny Schafer <sch...@netcom.com> wrote:

<a lot of stuff that is going to the wrong newsgroups>

Please note that I have trimmed accordingly. Suggest you do the same.

Roy

Chris

unread,
Mar 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/22/98
to

HyperMommy (dug...@nettally.com, NOT to be confused with cddugan) wrote:
: Chris wrote:

: > constitute proof of causation. However, a cause-and-effect relationship
: > between spanking and the various long-term negative effects which have
: > been found to correlate with it (Strassberg et al., 1994; Straus, 1991) is

: So I guess if that's the case then me and my sister and my husband and everyone else
: should be in jail? Yeah right.

You misunderstand the nature of correlation. This figures are
between-group differences. They do not imply that every single member of
each group looks like the mean average for that group. The fact that you
and your family are not in jail does not constitute evidence that the
research is wrong any more than the existence of people who have smoked
and don't have cancer disproves the research linking smoking to cancer.

Most spanked children do not grow up to be criminals. However,
the minority who do is a significantly larger percentage of that group
than the minority of never-spanked children who grow up to be criminals
(Straus, 1991).

Chris

REFERENCE

Steve Schofield

unread,
Mar 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/22/98
to

On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 09:46:22 +0000, Emma <po...@globalnet.co.uk>
wrote:

I agree with every word of the above statements. I have a poster like
this in my sunday school class room but I also think that children who
are spanked are far better behaved(in general) than kids who aren't.

Steve Schofield


Harleygirl

unread,
Mar 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/22/98
to

Emma, thank you for this! I remember this as a child growing up... and
even today, they're STILL words to live by...

Thanks again,
HG

Emma <po...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote in article
<3514DDEE...@globalnet.co.uk>...


> If a child lives with criticism, he learns to condemn.
>
> If a child lives with hostility he learns to fight.
>

>>---SNIPPED

Emma

unread,
Mar 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/22/98
to


Harleygirl wrote:

> Emma, thank you for this! I remember this as a child growing up... and
> even today, they're STILL words to live by...
>
> Thanks again,
> HG

Dont mention it. I wish I could say that I wrote it.....but I just passed
on the message :o)

Deacon Blues

unread,
Mar 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/23/98
to

On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 09:46:22 +0000, Emma <po...@globalnet.co.uk>
wrote:

>If a child lives with criticism, he learns to condemn.


>If a child lives with hostility he learns to fight.

>If a child lives with ridicule he learns to be shy.
>If a child lives with shame he learns to be guilty.
>If a child lives with tolerance he learns to be patient.
>If a child lives with encouragement he learns to confidence.
>If a child lives with praise he learns to appreciate.
>If a child lives with fairness he learns justice.
>If a child lives with security he learns to have faith.
>If a child lives with approval he learns to like himself.
>If a child lives with acceptance and friendship he learns to find love in
>the world.

And if a child lives with a dog, he learns judgement, responsibility,
and to turn around three times before going to sleep.
------
People don't vote because voting changes nothing.
Voting changes nothing because elected officials are powerless.
Government isn't run by elected officials but by civil service lifers.
The greatest threat to democracy wasn't communism after all.
It was elimination of the spoils system.

Vote for Deacon Blues
Candidate for US Dogcatcher General in year 2000
Constitutional Anarchy Party
"Anarchy is evil because it is unstable. It leaves a power void.
Constitution anarchy eliminates destabilization and thwarts despotism."


HyperMommy

unread,
Mar 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/23/98
to

Chris wrote:

> Most spanked children do not grow up to be criminals. However,
> the minority who do is a significantly larger percentage of that group
> than the minority of never-spanked children who grow up to be criminals
> (Straus, 1991).

I believe I see where you're coming from. However, before these studies can be said to
"prove" anything I would like to see them compared to some type of control group. For
instance, how many __________ (insert whatever you would consider to be a successful group
of people here -- CEOs, congressmen (questionable, eh? :) ), clergymen, whatever) were
spanked as a child. I'm sure you will also find that a greater number of this group were
spanked than were not. It proves nothing.--

carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu

unread,
Mar 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/23/98
to

In article <3514e38e....@nntp.cntfl.com>,

lyra@nospam_interoz.com wrote:
>
> On 21 Mar 1998 05:34:51 GMT, lef...@ix.netcom.com(Carol Ann
> Hemingway) wrote:
>
> >In <6evcgv$m1q$9...@dosa.alt.net> bost...@NOSPAM.alt.net writes:
> >>
> >>LaVonne Carlson <carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>Children subjected to any and >>all forms of corporal punishment are
> >overrepresented in the criminal >>and juvenile offender population.
> >Thus, while not all children >>subjected to corporal punishment are
> >represented in these populations, >>the probability increases in the
> >presence of corporal punishment.
> >>>
>
> Actually, there is a deeper cause. Over 40% of juveniles in the
> offender population show a well below average level of education.
> Teens (age 13 thru 16) consistantly show an education level of 4th
> grade or lower. The problem is not corporal punishment, but lack of
> education.

Brenda, causality cannot be proven in either case. It is interesting to
note, however, that spanking also correlates positively with lower
education levels! Do you have research evidence on juveniles in the
offender population that has ruled out corporal punishment as a
potentially contributing factor, and shown that lack of education is the
is the true cause of offending? If so, please post citations.

LaVonne

carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu

unread,
Mar 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/23/98
to

In article <35148267...@nettally.com>,

HyperMommy <dug...@nettally.com> wrote:
>
> Chris wrote:
>

> The last six messages or so have been you non-spankers rah-rah'ing each other. Hope
> you realize that the rest of us our out here laughing through your messages.

I am glad you are reading and reacting to the messages posted by those of
us who oppose corporal punishment, and who have successfully parented
without resorting to looking in the eyes of our children, raising our
hands, and striking their small bodies in the name of discipline.

The fact that you read the posts means you are hearing what is being
said. The fact that you laugh indicates an emotional response. This
beats apathy any day!

dol...@coffey.com

unread,
Mar 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/23/98
to

carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu wrote:

>In article <35148267...@nettally.com>,
> HyperMommy <dug...@nettally.com> wrote:
>>
>> Chris wrote:
>>

>> The last six messages or so have been you non-spankers rah-rah'ing each other. Hope
>> you realize that the rest of us our out here laughing through your messages.

>The fact that you read the posts means you are hearing what is being


>said. The fact that you laugh indicates an emotional response. This
>beats apathy any day!

>LaVonne

I have to contribute to this. My father DID spank us when it was
NECESSARY. Other than birthday spankings, we got paddled for doing
dangerous things--to emphasize the point. My father NEVER hit us in
anger and five of the six of us are productive, well-balanced adults.
(The jury is still out on the sixth).

The only other time I can remember being spanked was when my sister
and I were in laughing fits in bed and couldn't stop. We KNEW Dad was
gonna come in and swat us once if we didn't stop and it just made us
laugh harder. The last time he did it, it had no effect at all. He
gave it up.

Come to think of it, we got separate bedrooms not long after
that...... I wonder why?

>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading


--
Loryn, who is waiting to hear from eight publishers...
(and is staying 39 until she sells one of her books)


ave...@hotmail.com

unread,
Mar 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/23/98
to

[...]


> >>>Children subjected to any and >>all forms of corporal punishment are
> >overrepresented in the criminal >>and juvenile offender population.
> >Thus, while not all children >>subjected to corporal punishment are
> >represented in these populations, >>the probability increases in the
> >presence of corporal punishment.
> >>>
>
> Actually, there is a deeper cause. Over 40% of juveniles in the
> offender population show a well below average level of education.
> Teens (age 13 thru 16) consistantly show an education level of 4th
> grade or lower. The problem is not corporal punishment, but lack of
> education.

Or that a larger and larger segment of the youth population is
ineducable, in good schools or bad.

It IS OK, if not PC, to acknowledge that Just Plain Stupid
people are stupid--even if they are only kids.


>
> >>Or perhaps children who lack respect for legitimate authority are more

> >likely>both to be subjected to corporal punishment and to wind up in
> >the criminal and>juvenile offender popilation. Causality is tricky.
> >>
>
> Quite possible.

_I_ lack respect for legitimate authority--and every other kind--
and I never served a minute of jail time. I wonder if being
clever and intelligent and self-educated had anything to do
with that outcome? 8).

Nope, I vote for ''Losers will be losers.'' Makes more sense.


>
> Remove "nospam" to reply via email
>
> If Life was a Highway, I'd be in a ditch
>
> Bright Blessings
> Brenda Smeby
> ICQ#4128184
>
>

a.

carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu

unread,
Mar 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/23/98
to

In article <3515adb4...@news.bright.net>,

cfr...@removethis.bright.net (Deacon Blues) wrote:
>
> On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 09:46:22 +0000, Emma <po...@globalnet.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> >If a child lives with criticism, he learns to condemn.
> >If a child lives with hostility he learns to fight.
> >If a child lives with ridicule he learns to be shy.
> >If a child lives with shame he learns to be guilty.
> >If a child lives with tolerance he learns to be patient.
> >If a child lives with encouragement he learns to confidence.
> >If a child lives with praise he learns to appreciate.
> >If a child lives with fairness he learns justice.
> >If a child lives with security he learns to have faith.
> >If a child lives with approval he learns to like himself.
> >If a child lives with acceptance and friendship he learns to find love in
> >the world.
>
> And if a child lives with a dog, he learns judgement, responsibility,
> and to turn around three times before going to sleep.

Actually there is evidence that pets help children learn good judgement
and responsibility. As for turning around three times before going to
sleep -- I have a story:

We had a dog (now deceased) who dug a hole outside our garage. She (the
dog) would dig down to cool dirt, turn around three or so times, and
settle in for a nap. One hot summer afternoon, I was sitting in the
backyard swing, and noticed fast and furious digging coming from the dog
spot, combined with a lot of turning and twisting. I looked more
closely and saw denim poking out of the dog hole. Walking back, I said;
"Honey, what are you doing?" "Trying to see what it feels like to be a
dog." she responded.

Yes, children learn what they live with, including digging holes and
turning around three times before sleeping **and** including hitting
when their parents hit them in the name of discipline.

LaVonne

carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu

unread,
Mar 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/23/98
to

In article <6f68sm$fn9$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,

ave...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> In article <3514e38e....@nntp.cntfl.com>,
> lyra@nospam_interoz.com wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > >>>Children subjected to any and >>all forms of corporal punishment are
> > >overrepresented in the criminal >>and juvenile offender population.
> > >Thus, while not all children >>subjected to corporal punishment are
> > >represented in these populations, >>the probability increases in the
> > >presence of corporal punishment.
> > >>>
> >
> > Actually, there is a deeper cause. Over 40% of juveniles in the
> > offender population show a well below average level of education.
> > Teens (age 13 thru 16) consistantly show an education level of 4th
> > grade or lower. The problem is not corporal punishment, but lack of
> > education.
>
> Or that a larger and larger segment of the youth population is
> ineducable, in good schools or bad.

I guess that would depend on our definition of "ineducable" -- don't you
think? And do you have any evidence to show that this "ineducable" population
is increasing?

Some individuals are more academically inclined than others. Ability levels
differ as well.


>
> It IS OK, if not PC, to acknowledge that Just Plain Stupid
> people are stupid--even if they are only kids.

I'm now becoming confused. It is okay not to be an academic. Where does
"just plain stupid" fit in here -- and what exactle does this have to do with
corporal punishment?


> >
> > >>Or perhaps children who lack respect for legitimate authority are more
> > >likely>both to be subjected to corporal punishment and to wind up in
> > >the criminal and>juvenile offender popilation. Causality is tricky.
> > >>
> >
> > Quite possible.
>
> _I_ lack respect for legitimate authority--and every other kind--
> and I never served a minute of jail time. I wonder if being
> clever and intelligent and self-educated had anything to do
> with that outcome? 8).

I would suspect so. What is "just plain stupid?" Please define.

de...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca

unread,
Mar 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/23/98
to

carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu wrote:

: I am glad you are reading and reacting to the messages posted by those of


: us who oppose corporal punishment, and who have successfully parented
: without resorting to looking in the eyes of our children, raising our

: hands, and striking their small bodies in the name of discipline.

: The fact that you read the posts means you are hearing what is being


: said. The fact that you laugh indicates an emotional response. This
: beats apathy any day!

: LaVonne

: -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
: http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading


I am in the progress of trying to put on my Spree site a list of books
that do not encourage spanking for the discipline of children. Please
check what I have so far (includes a book by Dr. Sears and a book and
cassette by Barbara Coloroso) and let me know of any other non-spanking
books I can add!

http://members.spree.com/dery

Thanks!

Daisy

BTW, can anyone tell me what this thread has to do with soc.men and
alt.mens-rights? Since I see no relation, follow-ups to my post will
not go to those groups.

Randy Cox

unread,
Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to

In article <6f13h3$9pa$2...@news.cudenver.edu>, on 21 Mar 1998,
cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu, Chris says

> Causality is indeed tricky, and correlational data alone do not

>constitute proof of causation. However, a cause-and-effect relationship
>between spanking and the various long-term negative effects which have
>been found to correlate with it (Strassberg et al., 1994; Straus, 1991) is

>the most parsimonious explanation for the available data taken as a whole.
>A recent study by Straus et al. (1997) has lent this interpretation added
>weight by showing that spanking appears to exhibit a dose-dependent
>negative effect over time. Children who were spanked the most at the
>beginning of the study showed, as a group, the most increases in lying,
>cheating and antisocial behaviors two years later. This is consistent

>with a cause-and-effect relationship between spanking and long-term
>behavior problems.

Yet, most parents spank their children. Most social scientists do not
believe that spanking is a major social problem. Most physicians,
though medical science researchers have ignored the phenomenon, do not
believe that spanking children is harmful for them. It is clear that
the practice can not be called 'safe' by any rational person. It is
clear, too, that no measurable long-term benefit has been uncovered.
Nearly every physician and family/child counselor can identify several
alternative child management methods that do not involve hitting and
hurting; that are even positive. Spanking's dark sides are treated like
a secret or like an unmentionable. That behavior and belief contrast
with what is known is the eternal curiosity and almost everyone seems
beguiled.

Randy Cox


HyperMommy

unread,
Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to

dol...@coffey.com wrote:

> (The jury is still out on the sixth).

LOL!!! I think that same jury is out on my sister and my brother in law. Seems that if
you look hard enough you'll find one in every family :)

> laugh harder. The last time he did it, it had no effect at all. He
> gave it up.
>
> Come to think of it, we got separate bedrooms not long after
> that...... I wonder why?

I've been there with my kids!!! Thanks for brightening my morning :)

mic...@hotmail.com

unread,
Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to

In article <35146ca0...@news.interserv.com>,

He who tears Ecclesiasticus 30:1
out of his bible,
is exercising discretion
with intelligence.

Mick.

Timothy J. Butler

unread,
Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to

mic...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> In article <35146ca0...@news.interserv.com>,
> ha...@interserv.com (Frank Bloater) wrote:
> >
> >
> > He who loves his son will
> > whip him often,
> > in order that he may rejoice at
> > the way he turns out.
> > Ecclesiasticus 30:1
> > Catholic Holy Bible RSV
>
> He who tears Ecclesiasticus 30:1
> out of his bible,
> is exercising discretion
> with intelligence.

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If
anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described
in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy,
God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the
holy city, which are described in this book.
Revelation 22:18-19

Christine Insell

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Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to

Spanking is wrong PERIOD!

When you strike your adult partner that's called domestic violence

yet when you strike your minor child, that's called discipline!

GO FIGURE!

Try talking to your kids and RELAXING - parents who spank have lost
their COOL!

Sorry, but it's reality,
Christine
mom to 13 month old Breanna who will NEVER be hit

Gen. JC Christian

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Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to

>When you strike your adult partner that's called domestic violence

Maybe so, but it is God's law that Men have dominance over their wives. My
wife is a better mate after having visited my punishment room a number of
times.

>Try talking to your kids and RELAXING - parents who spank have lost
>their COOL!

I'm in total control when I'm in the punishment room.

>Sorry, but it's reality,
>Christine
>mom to 13 month old Breanna who will NEVER be hit

Well, you can raise all the sluts you want, but keep them away from our good
Christian families.

Gen. JC Christian
General of the Militias
CINCMIL
Persicos odi, puer, apparatus!
http://extra.newsguy.com/~satire/militia.htm

Richard Gaines

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Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to


Frank Bloater wrote:

> He who loves his son will
> whip him often,
> in order that he may rejoice at
> the way he turns out.
> Ecclesiasticus 30:1
> Catholic Holy Bible RSV

Well said.

Ric

Richard Gaines

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Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to


Marg Petersen wrote:

> <snip> I did, however, see my
> brother being spanked quite often. That most definitely had an
> impact on me. The first impact was of FEAR of the parent doing
> the spanking. Respect certainly had nothing to do with it for
> me. Secondly, the unreasonableness of the act (spanking) as it
> pertained to my brother. (He was sometimes spanked for very
> little reason. Perhaps the old "spank boys but not girls was
> in action here. I really don't have the answer for that.)
> Thirdly, since I cared a whole lot for my brother, I FELT for
> him and what was happening to him. (We also talked a LOT about
> his punishments after the fact.)

> Marg

Interesting point... I don't think spanking should ever be used as a tool to
frighten another child as an observer, this seems rather sadistic, to say the
least. However I don't regard the 'spank boys but not girls' idea is old. I have
had occasion to administer the odd spank to my son but I'd never dream of striking
my daughter. Maybe I'm just an old fashioned dad... never thought I'd say that...

Ric


Richard Gaines

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Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to


I have to say that some of the remarks in this thread are WAY to heavy. We're
not talking about horsewhipping here, or bashing kids with blunt instruments,
just a little smack to tell them they've been bad. A child's reaction to a
calm, rational argument is usually a) boredom, b)uncomprehension, c) the
thought "hey, so long as I stand listening to this stupid lecture I can get
away with anything".

The number of times I have seen tiny brattish kids run rings round their
'right on' parents in public is positively amazing.

Ric


webg...@javanet.com

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Mar 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/24/98
to

In article <6evjhr$h...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,

lef...@ix.netcom.com(Carol Ann Hemingway) wrote:
>
> In <6evcgv$m1q$9...@dosa.alt.net> bost...@NOSPAM.alt.net writes:
> >
> >LaVonne Carlson <carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>Children subjected to any and >>all forms of corporal punishment are
> overrepresented in the criminal >>and juvenile offender population.
> Thus, while not a