Coloring
Lisa A. Hye
on paper but never had a real coloring book of sorts. I was just curios as
to what age they start to grasp the idea of trying to stay inside the lines?
She was only interested in scribbling all over the pages; which I know is
completely normal. I was just curios....
Lisa
Mom to Kelsey (2.5)
Brumble
I did it to humor her, but now she tries to color like I did! I was amazed
at how well she stayed in the lines! (She was just over 2.5 at the time).
She still likes to scribble and doodle on blank paper, but colors in her
books.
Just watch out - a few months ago, she thought my kitchen was too boring and
left appliance-murals all over everything! :o)
Trina
Lisa A. Hye wrote in message <713f67$7...@news2.tds.net>...
JamBTDT
>to what age they start to grasp the idea of trying to stay inside the lines?
LOL...my daughter is 5 yrs old and now just really started caring about
coloring in the lines. About a year ago, I mentioned that she might want to
try and color inside the lines. She looked at me and asked "Why?" I no
longer question whether she stays inside the lines or not!!!!!!
Jackie
"Single parent.....who not only is happy about it, but proud of it...."
Lisa A. Hye
didn't paint them when I did the walls!!!
Lisa
mom to Kelsey (2.5)
Brumble wrote in message <713l0s$do5$1...@news.xmission.com>...
Ernest Fairchild
"told" him to. It just seemed better to him, I guess. My daughter, 3
next January, still scribbles. I wouldn't worry about it. Whenever they
start, it'll be a big day. Alex is VERY proud of being a neat colorer.
Of course, now he berates Savannah for "scribbling all over" her
coloring books. I then remind him that _he_ used to scribble.
Have a great day!
Ernest
Proud father of
Alexander Brandon (9/24/94) and Savannah Georgia (1/9/96)
(ern...@imap2.asu.edu)
(http://www.public.asu.edu/~ernestf/myfamily/fairchild.html)
Lisa A. Hye wrote in message <713f67$7...@news2.tds.net>...
>My 2.5 yo got her first coloring book & crayons today. She's been
doodling
>on paper but never had a real coloring book of sorts. I was just
curios as
>to what age they start to grasp the idea of trying to stay inside the
lines?
Jennifer Guy
>>I was just curios as
>>to what age they start to grasp the idea of trying to stay inside the lines?
>
>LOL...my daughter is 5 yrs old and now just really started caring about
>coloring in the lines. About a year ago, I mentioned that she might want to
>try and color inside the lines. She looked at me and asked "Why?" I no
>longer question whether she stays inside the lines or not!!!!!!
I've got another 5 yo who wasn't interested in staying in the lines
until recent school related peer pressure started making him be a
little more careful. Also, it distresses his kindergarten teacher when
all he wants to use is his favorite color, purple, which never
bothered me. So now he's coloring inside each shape of each picture
with as many colors as possible - the rainbow effects are *truly
stunning*. Yeah, right! :-}
LIV57
>>to what age they start to grasp the idea of trying to stay inside the lines?
I was personally thankful when mine were willing to stay on the paper and off
the walls, LOL.
Laura H.
AnWinEsp
>to what age they start to grasp the idea of trying to stay inside the lines?
That's interesting. My 3YO daughter has coloring books and will try to stay
inside the lines, but I would prefer she scribbled; I think that's more
creative. I'm always trying to get her to experiment with paint and crayons and
stuff, but she always wants me to draw something and then she fills it in.
Any ideas on how to make her more willing to do free-form art?
Anne
Jennifer Guy
>My 3YO daughter has coloring books and will try to stay
>inside the lines, but I would prefer she scribbled; I think that's more
>creative. I'm always trying to get her to experiment with paint and crayons and
>stuff, but she always wants me to draw something and then she fills it in.
>
>Any ideas on how to make her more willing to do free-form art?
Finger paint. Shaving cream with a few drops of food coloring works
well as a bathtub fingerpaint. If she's picky about keeping hands
clean, there's also a thing that has a plastic screen over the sheet
of paper. Tubes squirt the paint under the plastic screen, and you
press on the plastic to mash the paint around.
The 2 of us
thought was going to turn into a hippo may turn into a lion or better yet,
abstract art!
My sister and I would do this together when she reached an artistic block
with her work. It was so much fun for both of us and her work was always
more free after that. She also taught me to colour green hair and purple
grass and orange horses, etc. when I was younger. She did a lot by example.
*smile*
Kay
AnWinEsp wrote in message <19981029115550...@ng-fc2.aol.com>...
>>>My 2.5 yo got her first coloring book & crayons today. She's been
doodling
>>on paper but never had a real coloring book of sorts. I was just curios
as
>>to what age they start to grasp the idea of trying to stay inside the
lines?
>
>That's interesting. My 3YO daughter has coloring books and will try to stay
>inside the lines, but I would prefer she scribbled; I think that's more
>creative. I'm always trying to get her to experiment with paint and crayons
and
>stuff, but she always wants me to draw something and then she fills it in.
>
>Any ideas on how to make her more willing to do free-form art?
>
>
>Anne
Glenn Kuntz
> >>My 2.5 yo got her first coloring book & crayons today. She's been doodling
> >on paper but never had a real coloring book of sorts. I was just curios as
> >to what age they start to grasp the idea of trying to stay inside the lines?
>
> That's interesting. My 3YO daughter has coloring books and will try to stay
> inside the lines, but I would prefer she scribbled; I think that's more
> creative. I'm always trying to get her to experiment with paint and crayons and
> stuff, but she always wants me to draw something and then she fills it in.
>
> Any ideas on how to make her more willing to do free-form art?
>
> Anne
Replace the coloring books with blank paper.
We're essentially talking about two different (kinds of) lessons here; coloring
books have to do with learning to follow established guidelines (following rules,
getting along, conforming), while creativity (non-conformity, free-thinking,
independence) is best developed/expressed on the blank sheet. Of course there is
room for overlap, and both lessons are important, as well as an understanding of
when each may (or may not) be appropriate.
--
The CROKINOLE Board
http://www.frontiernet.net/~crokinol
MaryP Fox
coloring
books have to do with learning to follow established guidelines (following
rules,
getting along, conforming),>>
I always thought it had to do with developing motor skills rather than learning
to conform...
Mary
Wal...@dnvn.com
mary...@aol.com (MaryP Fox) wrote:
Exactly. The idea that 'scribbling' is more creative is pretty silly
anyway. Of course we want to encourage a variety of artistic expression -
but developing fine motor skills is also important and coloring books
help this. It has later payoff in learning to write.
I would also be nervous about pushing a child who loves to fill in
things to 'be more creative'. The mother who is all concerned that
her happily coloring booking kid [or child who draws shapes and fills
them in] is 'not creative' is sending a powerful message of rejection
to her child that is more important than what they produce on a piece
of paper. Enjoy what they do. Provide varied activities, but don't
act as if that coloring book [which some kids take great comfort in] is
a sign that they are somehow inferior. Kids are very canny about
sensing that Mom things they are not measuring up.
AnWinEsp
>Exactly. The idea that 'scribbling' is more creative is pretty silly
>anyway.>>
I don't see how coloring in a coloring book is as creative as filling a blank
piece of paper or shaping something with a lump of Play-Doh.
<< Of course we want to encourage a variety of artistic expression -
>but developing fine motor skills is also important and coloring books
>help this.>>
My daughter has very highly developed fine-motor skills. You should see her do
puzzles! It's her willingness to experiment that is getting short shrift.
>
>I would also be nervous about pushing a child who loves to fill in
>things to 'be more creative'. The mother who is all concerned that
>her happily coloring booking kid [or child who draws shapes and fills
>them in]>>
If only she would draw shapes and fill them in. She insists that *I* draw the
shapes, and then she fills them in.
<< is 'not creative' is sending a powerful message of rejection
>to her child that is more important than what they produce on a piece
>of paper. >>
I think you're making more of my question than is there. My child is creative
in many ways. I just think she's missing out on something, and I'd like to
encourage her to try painting, etc. I don't want her to be an artist or
anything; I just know she would enjoy painting, drawing, scribbling, if only
she would give it a chance.
Anne
Tania N. Robinson
would color things in--sometimes he would make us do it. However, after
many, many months of watching, he took off on his own and has never looked
back. According to his kindergarten teacher, he is one of only three or
four kids she has had that are this talented at drawing and coloring. At
least with him, watching us was an important phase is his creative
development. My younger boy is now going through a similar phase (he is 2
1/2). Perhaps you might encourage her to draw, paint, etc. WITH you. My
boys love this. We take a theme and all of us draw or paint something.
Anyway, another good point that I have heard and adopted is to find an
honest, positive comment about all they do. Don't praise falsely, telling
them it is great when even they know it isn't. Rather, find something
concrete to praise. Sometimes, all I can come up with is "I really like the
way you used green in that picture." Also, get her talking about the
pictures by asking something like, "Tell me about your picture." Never
guess at what she has drawn--that can be devastating if you guess a horse
and she had been trying to draw a cow. Let her tell you what is going on.
These are just some hints that I have used. I'm sure that she will get more
interested in creating things herself if you do it beside her, let her
experiment, don't criticize, and praise constructively.
TR
AnWinEsp wrote in message <19981029160312...@ng23.aol.com>...
Glenn Kuntz
> <<We're essentially talking about two different (kinds of) lessons here;
> coloring
> books have to do with learning to follow established guidelines (following
> rules,
> getting along, conforming),>>
>
> I always thought it had to do with developing motor skills rather than learning
> to conform...
>
> Mary
It certainly *can* help with motor skills, as can drawing shapes, numbers,
letters, or tracing or copying on a blank paper, but I was commenting with relation
to creativity.
Banty
>That's interesting. My 3YO daughter has coloring books and will try to stay
>inside the lines, but I would prefer she scribbled; I think that's more
>creative. I'm always trying to get her to experiment with paint and crayons
>and
>stuff, but she always wants me to draw something and then she fills it in.
>
>Any ideas on how to make her more willing to do free-form art?
Two things:
She might not really be of aristic bent, and need the structure of the outlines
to enjoy the coloring.
She might be of artistic bent, but be concentrating on the aspects of
concentration and structure provided by the outlines.
Either way, don't worry. Randomness does not equal creativity.
-------
Ba...@aol.com
"It is difficult to distinguish where the feminine ends and nature begins."
- Antonio Carlos Jobim
Banty
>> I always thought it had to do with developing motor skills rather than
>learning
>> to conform...
>>
>> Mary
>
>Exactly. The idea that 'scribbling' is more creative is pretty silly
>anyway. Of course we want to encourage a variety of artistic expression -
>but developing fine motor skills is also important and coloring books
>help this. It has later payoff in learning to write.
Horray! Someone who breaks the mold (ironic reference intended) of thinking
that creativity has to lack discipline. BTW, it's also about concentration.
>
>I would also be nervous about pushing a child who loves to fill in
>things to 'be more creative'. The mother who is all concerned that
>her happily coloring booking kid [or child who draws shapes and fills
>them in] is 'not creative' is sending a powerful message of rejection
>to her child that is more important than what they produce on a piece
>of paper. Enjoy what they do. Provide varied activities, but don't
>act as if that coloring book [which some kids take great comfort in] is
>a sign that they are somehow inferior. Kids are very canny about
>sensing that Mom things they are not measuring up.
Exactly. Rejecting art which has order is as close-minded as rejecting art
which has disorder. It's a sophomoric idea that the mark of creativity is
chaos. (Yeah, I know Niechze and all that (it's too late in the evening to
look up the spelling), but I dont' buy it.)
AnWinEsp
>Exactly. Rejecting art which has order is as close-minded as rejecting art
>which has disorder. It's a sophomoric idea that the mark of creativity is
>chaos.
If you think filling in a coloring book is art, so be it. (Although it's not as
though my daughter is experimenting with color or anything.) I think her
coloring in coloring books is practice of her fine-motor skills, which is all
well and good, but I don't believe it's very creative.
I'm not trying to *force* her to be creative; I just want to understand why
she's unwilling to try and how I can perhaps gently persuade her that creation
might be fun.
What I'd like my daughter to try is painting/coloring/writing on a blank piece
of paper or a clean chalk board. I keep paper and crayons around the house in
case she feels like drawing/writing. I don't want to have any say over *what*
she writes, and I don't necessarily want it to be "chaos."
( And, if I'm not mistaken, scribbling with a pen or pencil is good practice
for handwriting later on.)
Faced with a blank sheet of paper, my daughter says, "Mommy, draw something."
I'll gently suggest, "Let's see what you can do," but she insists I do it, so I
do. She's willing to fill in what I've drawn or stenciled, but she refuses to
simply draw or try to write herself.
The same goes for Play-Doh and playing with blocks too. It's "Mommy, will you
build something?" I do it, but I'm wondering when she's going to start trying
to do it on her own.
Where did you get the idea I respect chaos over order?
Anne
Hamilton
(AnWinEsp) wrote:
When you suggested in your first post that 'scribbling' was superior
to coloring a color book.
I know you are terribly defensive about this -- but you might rethink
whether your anxiety about creativity is actually inhibiting your
daughter's creativity. What looks like 'encouragement' to you may well
look like disappointment and negative judgment to her. Generally
speaking encouragement is an 'atta girl' when she does something -- NOT
a suggestion that what she wants to do is wanting and that she should
do something else. It reads from here like rejection, not encouragement.
It may look that way to her too.
How about just giving her the materials and being too busy with your
own tasks to be able to 'help her' OR 'encourage her by suggesting
that she do something you want her to do rather than what she wants to
do'. Maybe when left with paper and stickers and glitter and scissors
and crayons she will venture forth and experiment -- And maybe if it
matters less to you, she won't be too nervous to try -- or maybe she will
continue with her particular tastes.
AnWinEsp
>> Where did you get the idea I respect chaos over order?
>>
>> Anne
>
>When you suggested in your first post that 'scribbling' was superior
>to coloring a color book.
[I tried to e-mail you with a response, but the mail bounced.]
Scribbling's not chaotic. It's learning how to use a writing utensil. It also
gives a child the opportunity to take the writing implement where she wants it
to go. And I can't see how coloring within the lines in a coloring book is as
creative as doing something on a blank piece of paper.
<<>I know you are terribly defensive about this>>
I'm not defensive about this; my defensiveness comes from the posts implying I
was looking askance at my daughter or giving her vibes I didn't think she was
good enough. I was misunderstood and was trying to clarify my question.
<< -- but you might rethink
>whether your anxiety about creativity is actually inhibiting your
>daughter's creativity.>>
I'm not anxious about it. I asked a quick question in a newsgroup where people
give solutions to parenting problems. While I've gotten some helpful advice,
I'm amazed at how negative someof the posts have been.
<< What looks like 'encouragement' to you may well
>look like disappointment and negative judgment to her. Generally
>speaking encouragement is an 'atta girl' when she does something -- NOT
>a suggestion that what she wants to do is wanting and that she should
>do something else.>>
What makes you think I've done this? On the few occasions she's done something
herself, I've said, " You made that all by yourself? Cool! It's really
interesting [a favorite word of hers that she picked up at nursery school].
Let's leave it out to show Daddy when he gets home." When she makes things in
school, I give her the same response (although again, the teachers tell them
what to make and where to put the glue, etc.) and display her productions.
Maybe I should have posted this question in a child-development newsgroup. I
don't think I would have been misunderstood. I've read in many places that
given blank paper or blocks or whatever, kids will do their own thing. It
hasn't been my experience, and I'm wondering what I could do to help my
daughter. (I'm not trying to raise a Georgia O'Keeffe here; I just want to help
her have more fun and not feel she must always do things within the
boundaries.)
>
>How about just giving her the materials and being too busy with your
>own tasks to be able to 'help her'
>>>
Been there, done that. It's a pretty consistent thing. It happens with
Play-Doh, with all the different types of blocks we have, with the Paint
program on the computer (I have to draw the shapes, and she fills them in with
color), and so on. She has a fit if I don't do the building or the drawing or
the stenciling myself. For the most part, she wants to be an observer, not a
participant.
<< OR 'encourage her by suggesting
>that she do something you want her to do rather than what she wants to do.'>>
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
<< Maybe when left with paper and stickers and glitter and scissors
>and crayons she will venture forth and experiment ->>
Nope. I've (heart in throat) left the crayons in an accessible spot. I've
bought paint, finger paint, and markers.There's blank paper in the kitchen and
living room (our main living areas), and an easel and chalkboard in the dining
room. No go. She's not even really that into coloring books--she'll color if I
do, but usually only on whatever picture I'm coloring.
<<- And maybe if it
>matters less to you, she won't be too nervous to try -- or maybe she will
>continue with her particular tastes.>>
It doesn't matter as much to me as you think. I've written a lot of posts on
this because I was misunderstood, not because I'm ruminating about my
daughter's lack of spontaneity.
Anne
star chavez
something."
I'll gently suggest, "Let's see what you can do," but she insists I do it,
so I
do. She's willing to fill in what I've drawn or stenciled, but she refuses
to
simply draw or try to write herself.
The same goes for Play-Doh and playing with blocks too. It's "Mommy, will
you
build something?" I do it, but I'm wondering when she's going to start
trying
to do it on her own.
"
Maybe when you stop doing it for her? Just a suggestion..Someone
mentioned you drawing one line, her drawing another..etc. This is a good
idea. C.
star chavez
the stenciling myself. For the most part, she wants to be an observer, not
a
participant. "
Maybe this is the problem. You are trying to encourage your daughter to
do something, but when she wants something else, she has a "fit" if it is
not done her way. Try NOT giving in to the fit . If I learned that
getting upset got me my own way all the time, I would still be doing it!
abyw...@bidmc.harvard.edu
art, I'll do mine" type of thing. Sit down, pick up the crayons and draw (I
suggest abstracts for this since your superior abilities might be
intimidating). Make your own art projects, hang them both up together and pat
yourselves on the back. :)
Enjoy,
Alexis
In article <hamilton-301...@host-209-214-115-202.bna.bellsouth.net>,
hami...@DNVN.com (Hamilton) wrote:
> In article <19981030092710...@ng24.aol.com>, anwi...@aol.com
> (AnWinEsp) wrote:
>
> > >
> > >Exactly. Rejecting art which has order is as close-minded as rejecting art
> > >which has disorder. It's a sophomoric idea that the mark of creativity is
> > >chaos.
> >
> > If you think filling in a coloring book is art, so be it. (Although it's
> not as
> > though my daughter is experimenting with color or anything.) I think her
> > coloring in coloring books is practice of her fine-motor skills, which is all
> > well and good, but I don't believe it's very creative.
> >
> > I'm not trying to *force* her to be creative; I just want to understand why
> > she's unwilling to try and how I can perhaps gently persuade her that creation
> > might be fun.
> >
> > What I'd like my daughter to try is painting/coloring/writing on a blank piece
> > of paper or a clean chalk board. I keep paper and crayons around the house in
> > case she feels like drawing/writing. I don't want to have any say over *what*
> > she writes, and I don't necessarily want it to be "chaos."
> >
> > ( And, if I'm not mistaken, scribbling with a pen or pencil is good practice
> > for handwriting later on.)
> >
> > Faced with a blank sheet of paper, my daughter says, "Mommy, draw something."
> > I'll gently suggest, "Let's see what you can do," but she insists I do
> it, so I
> > do. She's willing to fill in what I've drawn or stenciled, but she refuses to
> > simply draw or try to write herself.
> >
> > The same goes for Play-Doh and playing with blocks too. It's "Mommy, will you
> > build something?" I do it, but I'm wondering when she's going to start trying
> > to do it on her own.
> >
> > Where did you get the idea I respect chaos over order?
> >
> >
> >
> > Anne
>
> When you suggested in your first post that 'scribbling' was superior
> to coloring a color book.
>
> I know you are terribly defensive about this -- but you might rethink
> whether your anxiety about creativity is actually inhibiting your
> daughter's creativity. What looks like 'encouragement' to you may well
> look like disappointment and negative judgment to her. Generally
> speaking encouragement is an 'atta girl' when she does something -- NOT
> a suggestion that what she wants to do is wanting and that she should
> do something else. It reads from here like rejection, not encouragement.
> It may look that way to her too.
>
> How about just giving her the materials and being too busy with your
> own tasks to be able to 'help her' OR 'encourage her by suggesting
> that she do something you want her to do rather than what she wants to
> do'. Maybe when left with paper and stickers and glitter and scissors
> and crayons she will venture forth and experiment -- And maybe if it
> matters less to you, she won't be too nervous to try -- or maybe she will
> continue with her particular tastes.
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Wal...@dnvn.com
<Pine.BSF.3.96.981030...@callisto.uwinnipeg.ca>, star
chavez <cin...@callisto.uwinnipeg.ca> wrote:
Why should this kid do art the way Mom want her to? It is one thing
to 'give in to a fit' if it is about disciplinary issues such as
throwing food, or not putting away toys, or kicking the cat. But why
should control freak Mom be dictating how the kid enjoys artistic
expression? The one thing that is clear is that the kid is being taught
not to enjoy art because she isn't good enough. Maybe, in fact, she
is just learning that in general she isn't 'good enough' the way she is.
Some people are temperamentally 'observers'. do we really think we should
be forcing them to be something else?
Gp lenexa
daughters developmental skills.
>But why
>should control freak Mom be dictating how the kid enjoys artistic
>expression?
BTW, I don't remember how old this child is. Would she enjoy it if you made
letter of the alphabet and got her to try and copy them? (I got this idea from
a developmental skills test I was reading for my stepchild.)
Geri
AnWinEsp
>daughters developmental skills.
Thank you! From the two posts he or she has contributed to this thread, I can
see this Walker person has a terribly wrong idea about me.
>
>>But why
>>should control freak Mom be dictating how the kid enjoys artistic
>>expression? >>
>
>BTW, I don't remember how old this child is. Would she enjoy it if you made
>letter of the alphabet and got her to try and copy them? (I got this idea
>from
>a developmental skills test I was reading for my stepchild.)
She's three.
I've tried this, and it's is one thing she will do. She even makes letters with
the knife and fork ("Look, Mommy--I made an X!") She also took the letters
L-U-C-Y from her alphabet puzzle and presented them to me: "Look, Mom--I
spelled my name!" Looks as though this is the beginning of reading and writing.
Maybe my daughter is a person whowill express her express herself with
make-believe and words, rather than through physical media.
I guess I thought all kids liked blocks or paints or crayons or chalk.
Anne
abyw...@bidmc.harvard.edu
Childhood Education with an emphasis on art for children. She was heavily
into 'process' instead of 'product' which means that she felt that the
process of making art was a more important experience for kids than whatever
product came out of the process. There were art supplies in many areas of the
school and they very rarely had 'color in' type projects. Now, this was fine
for kids like my daughter who were really into art to begin with (the only
thing my daughter complained about was the brushes that they had to paint
with were too big/thick - she felt that she couldn't get the detail she
wanted into her work) but it wasn't so good for the kids who weren't that
into art. I had a long conversation with a teacher there who I really loved
and respected and she felt that some of the kids would've done better and
been happier with more structured projects. So, it might be that your
daughter is one of those kids and she gets a lot out of following directions
and making things that way. Perhaps when she feels more sure of herself,
she'll start experimenting more.
One sort of midground activity is making backgrounds for stickers, you draw
the background and then stick stickers on to complete the picture.
Another thing you might want to do is take her to an art museum (if there's
one nearby) and look at the works and discuss them. My daughter is fascinated
with Serat (we have one in the local museum) and the fact that you can make
one coherent picture out of a bunch of dots (a good ramp for a discussion re:
tv and computer monitor pictures and just how humans perceive visual images).
She also likes impressionism (I put her on my shoulders and go close to the
painting and back up slowly so that she can see the image come together).
It's also a good place to get acquainted with modern art/abstract art and see
that this type of art also has validity.
Good luck!
-Alexis
In article <19981030105113...@ng134.aol.com>,
anwi...@aol.com (AnWinEsp) wrote:
> >>
> >> Where did you get the idea I respect chaos over order?
> >>
> >> Anne
> >
> >When you suggested in your first post that 'scribbling' was superior
> >to coloring a color book.
>
> [I tried to e-mail you with a response, but the mail bounced.]
>
> Scribbling's not chaotic. It's learning how to use a writing utensil. It also
> gives a child the opportunity to take the writing implement where she wants it
> to go. And I can't see how coloring within the lines in a coloring book is as
> creative as doing something on a blank piece of paper.
>
> <<>I know you are terribly defensive about this>>
>
> I'm not defensive about this; my defensiveness comes from the posts implying I
> was looking askance at my daughter or giving her vibes I didn't think she was
> good enough. I was misunderstood and was trying to clarify my question.
>
> << -- but you might rethink
> >whether your anxiety about creativity is actually inhibiting your
> >daughter's creativity.>>
>
> I'm not anxious about it. I asked a quick question in a newsgroup where people
> give solutions to parenting problems. While I've gotten some helpful advice,
> I'm amazed at how negative someof the posts have been.
>
> << What looks like 'encouragement' to you may well
> >look like disappointment and negative judgment to her. Generally
> >speaking encouragement is an 'atta girl' when she does something -- NOT
> >a suggestion that what she wants to do is wanting and that she should
> >do something else.>>
>
> What makes you think I've done this? On the few occasions she's done something
> herself, I've said, " You made that all by yourself? Cool! It's really
> interesting [a favorite word of hers that she picked up at nursery school].
> Let's leave it out to show Daddy when he gets home." When she makes things in
> school, I give her the same response (although again, the teachers tell them
> what to make and where to put the glue, etc.) and display her productions.
>
> Maybe I should have posted this question in a child-development newsgroup. I
> don't think I would have been misunderstood. I've read in many places that
> given blank paper or blocks or whatever, kids will do their own thing. It
> hasn't been my experience, and I'm wondering what I could do to help my
> daughter. (I'm not trying to raise a Georgia O'Keeffe here; I just want to help
> her have more fun and not feel she must always do things within the
> boundaries.)
> >
> >How about just giving her the materials and being too busy with your
> >own tasks to be able to 'help her'
> >>>
>
> Been there, done that. It's a pretty consistent thing. It happens with
> Play-Doh, with all the different types of blocks we have, with the Paint
> program on the computer (I have to draw the shapes, and she fills them in with
> color), and so on. She has a fit if I don't do the building or the drawing or
> the stenciling myself. For the most part, she wants to be an observer, not a
> participant.
>
> << OR 'encourage her by suggesting
> >that she do something you want her to do rather than what she wants to do.'>>
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by this.
>
> << Maybe when left with paper and stickers and glitter and scissors
> >and crayons she will venture forth and experiment ->>
>
> Nope. I've (heart in throat) left the crayons in an accessible spot. I've
> bought paint, finger paint, and markers.There's blank paper in the kitchen and
> living room (our main living areas), and an easel and chalkboard in the dining
> room. No go. She's not even really that into coloring books--she'll color if I
> do, but usually only on whatever picture I'm coloring.
>
> <<- And maybe if it
> >matters less to you, she won't be too nervous to try -- or maybe she will
> >continue with her particular tastes.>>
>
> It doesn't matter as much to me as you think. I've written a lot of posts on
> this because I was misunderstood, not because I'm ruminating about my
> daughter's lack of spontaneity.
>
> Anne
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
MaryP Fox
she's unwilling to try and how I can perhaps gently persuade her that creation
might be fun.>>
A couple of things come to mind. First of all, she might be intimidated by
that blank space. I guess the closest thing for an adult would be the feeling
some of us get at the beginning of a large project, particularly one that
involves writing. That first blank page can seem pretty overwhelming.
Secondly, maybe she just loves/needs order. My son was like this. As a
toddler he would take the baby food jars, sort them according to color and them
stack them in very precise rows. He also used to line up his toys. He has
never been one to enjoy "creating" as you have defined it. The things he does
"create" (like with Legos) are always very well ordered and almost always
following an existing pattern, picture or set of instructions. Thirdly,
through nothing you have done, your daughter might be overly concerned with
doing it "right". You mentioned a preschool environment where there is
definitely a right and wrong way to approach art. If this is a message she is
getting on a very regular basis it may be hard to counteract it.
Here's what I would do. First of all, I wouldn't do any of it for her. If
this causes her to have a "fit", fine . I would just leave the art projects
out of our routine for a while (As a matter of fact, I suspect that this may
not be such a bad idea as it appears that there is some tension between what
you would like her to be doing and what she wants done.). In the meantime, I
might try things like giving her shaving cream to squirt in the tub or some
Duplos to build with and walk away. Leaving her on her own to experiment may
just work. In addition, I would not make any comments on what she does with
these things. Some kids feel as much if not more pressure from praise as they
do from criticism. If you feel you must comment, in the long run it's much
better to use the language of encouragement ("You must be proud of that," or
"You look like you are having fun.") as opposed to that language of praise ("I
like that, " or "You did a great job on that."). It is a subtle but important
difference for the language of encouragement acknowledges without judging,
while praise is judgment. Again, if she shows no interest in these activities,
again I would just leave the whole thing alone for a while. The less important
she senses the whole thing is to you the more likely she is to feel free to try
something new.
Bottom line--all you can do is provide the opportunities. The rest is up to
her.
Mary
star chavez
to 'give in to a fit' if it is about disciplinary issues such as
should control freak Mom be dictating how the kid enjoys artistic
not to enjoy art because she isn't good enough. Maybe, in fact, she
is just learning that in general she isn't 'good enough' the way she is.
Some people are temperamentally 'observers'. do we really think we should
be forcing them to be something else?
"
I agree that a child should not have to express herself
artistically the way another wants them too. But you misunderstood my
post.The mom is complaining of a problem she perpetuates herself. SHe has
"allowed" her daughter to "have fits"....IMO,"fits" should not be allowed
OR encouraged at any time...THis started out as play/art discussion. When
tantrums or fits come into the picture, it is a problem. Not necessarily
one of discipline, just a problem that does not need to be encouraged by
giving into the problem behaviour.
For instance, I also let my daughter have access to paper, pens,
crayons, paint whenever she wants. SOmetimes we colour or draw together,
sometimes I am busy or don't feel like it so I tell her to go on on her
own.. She accepts that. If she were to whine, nag, pout, make a fuss or
scream when I didn't draw with her, I would surely not draw for or with
her at THAT time. WHat would this accomplish??? You can enter ANY scenario
here. C.
don0524
AnWinEsp <anwi...@aol.com> wrote in article
<snip>
> I've tried this, and it's is one thing she will do. She even makes
letters with
> the knife and fork ("Look, Mommy--I made an X!") She also took the
letters
> L-U-C-Y from her alphabet puzzle and presented them to me: "Look, Mom--I
> spelled my name!" Looks as though this is the beginning of reading and
writing.
>
> Maybe my daughter is a person whowill express her express herself with
> make-believe and words, rather than through physical media.
>
> I guess I thought all kids liked blocks or paints or crayons or chalk.
>
>
>
> Anne
>
My 4 yo did not do much free-form drawing or block-building either. He is
concerned that he might make something "wrong". This is not from anything
I have said or done -- it is his personality. He knows what he wants to
draw -- he can see it in his head. But when his drawing doesn't match that
(because his fine motor skills are not developed enough), he gets very
frustrated. He slaps his forehead and says "Wrong!".
We have tried various things with him, with success. Some are not as
"creative" as others, in the free-form sense, but it gives him other things
to do beyond just filling in the picture. Here's a list:
-dot-to-dot (he loves them - either a purchased book or homemade - we just
put a bunch of dots on a page in some sort of shape or letter)
-drawing pictures or writing letters with a highlighter and letting him
trace them
-having him tell me what he wants to draw and I guide his hand
-drawing a picture at the top of a page and having him copy it at the
bottom
-Etch-a-sketch or Magna Doodle
-encouraging him to try even though he says "I don't know how." I tell him
that it takes lots of practice to learn to draw and write. Today he even
attempted to write his name for the very first time.
He enjoys all of these things, and of course I also will still draw
pictures for him and give him coloring books to color. He has gained a lot
of confidence and is finally starting to express himself in his own way.
Enjoy all of your daughter's attempts!
Karen
Banty
>>which has disorder. It's a sophomoric idea that the mark of creativity is
>>chaos.
>
Anne writes:
>If you think filling in a coloring book is art, so be it. (Although it's not
>as
>though my daughter is experimenting with color or anything.) I think her
>coloring in coloring books is practice of her fine-motor skills, which is all
>well and good, but I don't believe it's very creative.
Why wouldn't coloring in a coloring book be art for a 3 1/2 year old? We're
talking 3 1/2! The best she *might* be able to do in a year or so free form is
stick figures.
>I'm not trying to *force* her to be creative; I just want to understand why
>she's unwilling to try and how I can perhaps gently persuade her that
>creation
>might be fun.
Well, I don't know when you'd call it "force", but you're certainly giving her
the message she's doing something wrong. Why she does does not want to go
free-form is probably very simple - at her stage she likes the structure of the
lines - she knows what to do with that. There's nothing wrong with that. And
it doesn't necessarily lack "creativity"
.>Faced with a blank sheet of paper, my daughter says, "Mommy, draw something."
>I'll gently suggest, "Let's see what you can do," but she insists I do it, so
>I
>do. She's willing to fill in what I've drawn or stenciled, but she refuses to
>simply draw or try to write herself.
>
>
She doesn't feel comfortable without the guidelines now. If you want to
encourage an artistic appreciation, how about drawing the outlines like she
wants, but do more and more creative shapes to demonstrate to her some things.
Like, you can make a drawing with a lot of symmetry. The next time, a very
asymmetrical drawing. Do trees and houses another time, then wild and crazy
shapes filling the paper the next time after that. And, while she fills these
in, she'll probably pick up on the elements you've shown her.
Why fight that she likes the structure of the lines right now?
Banty
><< What looks like 'encouragement' to you may well
>>look like disappointment and negative judgment to her. Generally
>>speaking encouragement is an 'atta girl' when she does something -- NOT
>>a suggestion that what she wants to do is wanting and that she should
>>do something else.>>
>
>What makes you think I've done this? On the few occasions she's done
>something
>herself, I've said, " You made that all by yourself? Cool! It's really
>interesting [a favorite word of hers that she picked up at nursery school].
>Let's leave it out to show Daddy when he gets home." When she makes things in
>school, I give her the same response (although again, the teachers tell them
>what to make and where to put the glue, etc.) and display her productions.
>
>
But you only encourage what fulfills your idea of what she should do. That's
discouraging toward other things she *wants* to do.
>Maybe I should have posted this question in a child-development newsgroup. I
>don't think I would have been misunderstood. I've read in many places that
>given blank paper or blocks or whatever, kids will do their own thing.
I think you *should* post this question in a child-development newsgroup.
>(I'm not trying to raise a Georgia O'Keeffe here; I just want to help
>her have more fun and not feel she must always do things within the
>boundaries.)
What if Georgia O'Keefe was a child prodigy, and during certain stages in her
art her mother hovered over her saying "dear, you MUST paint something other
than bleached animal skulls and orchids...."??
Working within guidelines, whether self-imposed or defined, *is* part of art.
Do you think Haiku less creative than free verse?
Banty
>
>"She has a fit if I don't do the building or the drawing or
>the stenciling myself. For the most part, she wants to be an observer, not
>a
>participant. "
>
> Maybe this is the problem. You are trying to encourage your daughter to
>do something, but when she wants something else, she has a "fit" if it is
>not done her way. Try NOT giving in to the fit . If I learned that
>getting upset got me my own way all the time, I would still be doing it!
>
>
>
Ohmygawd. Now we'll have a battle of wills over "creativity".
AnWinEsp
>But you only encourage what fulfills your idea of what she should do. That's
>discouraging toward other things she *wants* to do.
>
>
encouragement to her coloring on blank paper.
>>(I'm not trying to raise a Georgia O'Keeffe here; I just want to help
>>her have more fun and not feel she must always do things within the
>>boundaries.)
>
>What if Georgia O'Keefe was a child prodigy, and during certain stages in her
>art her mother hovered over her saying "dear, you MUST paint something other
>than bleached animal skulls and orchids...."??>>
LOL! Where did you get the idea I've been anything less than encouraging about
the coloring? Do you have any idea how many coloring books we have (I saw that
she liked them, so I bought the books) and how many I've filled in with her
myself? If I wanted to *force* her to draw on blank paper, would we even have
coloring books? You're making silly assumptions.
>Working within guidelines, whether self-imposed or defined, *is* part of
art.>>
I think coloring in a coloring bookfalls only under the broadest category of
art.
>
>Do you think Haiku less creative than free verse?
That's silly; the person is *creating* the words. Haiku to art is like
realistic drawing; the form (human or whatever) exists, and the artist
expresses it her way. I wouldn't compare coloring books and haiku.
Thanks for the debate!
Anne
star chavez
draw/play into an issue of discipline whatsoever...WHat I meant here was
that I think the mother is focusing way too much energy on this topic..
Give the girl some supplies, let her do what she wants...If she has a
"fit" because Mom is not colouring with her and doesn't want to, treat it
as any other
fit..IGnore it.
Hamilton
<Pine.BSF.3.96.981030...@callisto.uwinnipeg.ca>, star
chavez <cin...@callisto.uwinnipeg.ca> wrote:
See your point -- but the Mom is provoking the fit by not respecting
the child. So for Mom to pick a fight and then punish the kid for
responding seems sadistic.
Pas87
>her
>the message she's doing something wrong. Why she does does not want to go
>free-form is probably very simple - at her stage she likes the structure of
>the
>lines - she knows what to do with that. There's nothing wrong with that.
>And
>it doesn't necessarily lack "creativity"
>
When my 9 yr old was younger, he never
liked art at all. Didn't like coloring, or making
things. In Kindergarten, the teacher called
me to tell me there was a problem in this area.
I guess they had some kind of journal they
worked on a little every day and they
needed to draw and color pictures in them,
freeform. The teacher told me that my son
would sit there forever not knowing how to
start. She said that he would ask for help
but that they couldn't do that because it
is supposed to be something that they create
on their own, etc, etc.
I didn't agree. I told the teacher that my son
had never liked art and quite likely, because he didn't like art, he just
never learned the
basics and didn't have the practice behind
him. I tried to do stuff with him when he was
younger but he never wanted to.
I told her that he *did* need some basic help.
I don't know how to draw and I can
completely understand the mental block you
can get when you have a picture in your
mind but not a clue how to put it on paper.
My husband is really good at drawing so we
went out and bought Pictionary. All it took
to get my son past this hurdle was to teach him
the basics. My husband gave him ideas on how to draw a person, a tree, a
house, etc., and we had alot of fun doing it.
His teacher reported that he didn't have a
problem anymore and I told her again that
he just needed a little help.
My son is 9 now and does really well and
also enjoys art now.
Linda
Sid Steketee
>From: anwi...@aol.com (AnWinEsp)
>Subject: Re: Why color inside the lines? Was Re: Coloring
>Date: 30 Oct 1998 14:27:10 GMT
(snip)
>What I'd like my daughter to try is painting/coloring/writing on a
blank piece>of paper or a clean chalk board. I keep paper and crayons around
the house in>case she feels like drawing/writing. I don't want to have any say
over *what*>she writes, and I don't necessarily want it to be "chaos."
This reminded me of something I did with my daughter that turned out very
free-form for her. We went to Disneyland and we did a book of photographs. My
original intent was to write a story to go with each picture. Then my daughter
started dictating what to write. Then she started "writing" it herself. Just
scribbles under the picture, but she was having a lot of fun saying what she
was "writing." Now we make all sorts of books (cut paper in half, fold it in
half again and staple. use construction paper for a cover) where she does all
the "writing" and even some "drawing."
Elena, mom to Dana (33 mos.)