I would actually like to discuss attachment theory and parenting
Quiet Guardian
Steve Chase, MSW-Intern
-
APA Charter, FAQ, links and more:
http://apa.artoo.net/
Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
<B89BDD75.17A92%quietg...@mailandnews.com>:
>Is there anyone out there who would like to talk about attachment?
>
>Steve Chase, MSW-Intern
Steve - given that you are an MSW intern, I'd *love* to talk about an
aspect of attachment parenting which doesn't get nearly enough play in the
social services setting - and that is the issue of *fathers* and
attachment. Do you already have thoughts on that? Because I can tell you
that in our social and legal systems (which MSWs play a large part in as
well) fathers are routinely ignored as an integral part of the attachment
process, to the vast detriment of their children, who often find themselves
suddenly without a parent on whom they have relied and to whom they have
tied their sense of security for their entire life. :-( [This is
especially true in the divorce, custody, and DV (allegations) context.]
Anne
http://www.intuitiveparenting.org
Resources on intuitive parenting, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, and
more
I am: Mom, Attorney, Professor, Advocate for Fathers and Against
Spam
http://www.annepmitchell.com
Steve Chase
I have many thoughts about how various systems, including the Child
Protective System with which I am most familiar, has intrinsic biases and
prejudices against fathers. I find it deeply disturbing and frustrating to
say the least. The notion that somehow bonding and attachment occurs
exclusively in the mother-child relationship seems obviously untrue to me.
But then again, I have many, many years of direct experience.
So yes, I have some strong feelings and many thoughts based on both theory,
experience and observations. Fathers can and I believe, should be an
integral part of a child's life.
One accomplishment which I hope to see done before I expire is to change
state law so that fathers have the ability to obtain the title of "father"
free and clear of any qualifiers such as "alleged," "presumed," "de-facto,"
and "biological." The child's mother is simply referred to as the child's
mother but, by law, the child's father always has some sort of qualifier.
While I understand procedurally and legally why this happens, it still
troubles me personally. Why can't a father just be the father? I believe
that language and references like this make a difference and I would really
like to begin a movement to rectify what I see as an inherent bias against
fathers even within the language used in court.
I have many more thoughts but will end for now.
Suffice it to say that I do believe that fathers matter in their role as
parents but also have not seen many positive examples of fathering.
Steve Chase
Professional Social Worker, Certified Educator, MSW as of May 10, 2002 and a
bunch of other stuff too.
PS. I was certified as a trainer by the National Center for Fathering a few
years ago.
in article 91BE9272shedev...@204.152.184.108, Anne P. Mitchell,
Esq. at shed...@stop.mail-abuse.org wrote on 2/25/02 6:56 PM:
Denise Soper
All I can say is Wow! You're a man, you believe in AP AND you're a social
worker! :) I'm going to get my MSW after my husband finishes school and I'm
excited to become a social worker, after my children are in school. I also
plan on using my AP knowledge to educate anyone who wants to know, that
there are other forms of parenting out there!
I once read in Dr Braselton's book that if a parent sleeps with their child
that the child will eventually be molested!? I'd love to know where he got
his information from! It's funny because if a person actually thought about
it, and realized that he didn't back that harsh statement up with proof,
they would come to the conclusion that MAYBE that statement is false. It
blows me away when people read something and assume it's true without
reassuring it because they read it in a magazine, web site, or book. Any
thoughts?
Denise
"Quiet Guardian" <quietg...@mailandnews.com> wrote in message
news:B89BDD75.17A92%quietg...@mailandnews.com...
Glen Appleby
alt.parenting.attachment,"Denise Soper" <little...@att.net>
wrote:
>Steve,
>
>All I can say is Wow! You're a man, you believe in AP AND you're a social
>worker! :)
Ya know, that looks like it is awfully close to bad-mouthing men.
I'll have you know that I am a man (for way lower values of
"man", of course), I believe in attachment parenting and I had
recently changed from (fasted yer seatbelts! I will *not* be
responsible for cases of whiplash) a 30 year career in
engineering into a career in mental health.
>I'm going to get my MSW after my husband finishes school and I'm
>excited to become a social worker, after my children are in school. I also
>plan on using my AP knowledge to educate anyone who wants to know, that
>there are other forms of parenting out there!
I honestly wish that I knew of some way that I could convince
people of the usefulness of some of these other methods. I
notice that, many times when I try to talk about them to people,
they just shut down -- as if I were potentially attacking them --
even if I am most gentle in my approach.
>I once read in Dr Braselton's book that if a parent sleeps with their child
>that the child will eventually be molested!? I'd love to know where he got
>his information from! It's funny because if a person actually thought about
>it, and realized that he didn't back that harsh statement up with proof,
>they would come to the conclusion that MAYBE that statement is false.
Heck, proof or not, it is silly if one just thinks about it! As
one find out more about meeting needs of kids, it appears more
that (1) it may be *less* likely that a co-sleeping kid would be
molested and (2) if they were (anything is possible), they would
be better prepaired to handle it, so have less damage as a
result.
>It
>blows me away when people read something and assume it's true without
>reassuring it because they read it in a magazine, web site, or book. Any
>thoughts?
Careful what you post. Somebody might believe it simply because
it is writen on the net.
I'm only half kidding about that. Even when I am right about
something (Hey! It *might* happen!), I would prefer that people
think about it for themselves than to just blindly accept what I
say because it may agree with some little thing that they may
have heard a long time ago.
If they blindly accept what I say, they might be as easily swayed
by something that someone else will say.
>"Quiet Guardian" <quietg...@mailandnews.com> wrote in message
>news:B89BDD75.17A92%quietg...@mailandnews.com...
>> Is there anyone out there who would like to talk about attachment?
>>
>> Steve Chase, MSW-Intern
>>
>> -
>> APA Charter, FAQ, links and more:
>> http://apa.artoo.net/
>-
>APA Charter, FAQ, links and more:
>http://apa.artoo.net/
Hmmm .... this looks suspicious, along with the only other post
that I have seen in this newsgroup since I had subscribed a few
months ago was:
>Hi all,
> I'm lookin for books about AP and all other types of parenting. I hoping >to find some cheap/used. If anyone has any for sale or trade please email >me.
>Thanks so much, Nancy
>
>-
>APA Charter, FAQ, links and more:
>http://apa.artoo.net/
But, heck, they all look like they are trying to initiate a
conversation, so what the heck.
The worst I figure that can happen is that I might get more spam.
Heck, some of it might be some good porn (if such a thing is
actually possible). If not, I know how to delete.
"Who we are and who we become depends, in part, on who we love."
-- "A General Theory Of Love" Thanks, Mom
______________________________________________________________
Glen Appleby gl...@armory.com <HTTP://www.armory.com/~glena/>
Mark Mobius
> quietg...@mailandnews.com (Quiet Guardian) wrote in
> <B89BDD75.17A92%quietg...@mailandnews.com>:
>
> >Is there anyone out there who would like to talk about attachment?
> >
> >Steve Chase, MSW-Intern
>
> Steve - given that you are an MSW intern, I'd *love* to talk about an
> aspect of attachment parenting which doesn't get nearly enough play in the
> social services setting - and that is the issue of *fathers* and
> attachment. Do you already have thoughts on that? Because I can tell you
> that in our social and legal systems (which MSWs play a large part in as
> well) fathers are routinely ignored as an integral part of the attachment
> process, to the vast detriment of their children, who often find themselves
> suddenly without a parent on whom they have relied and to whom they have
> tied their sense of security for their entire life. :-( [This is
> especially true in the divorce, custody, and DV (allegations) context.]
>
>
> Anne
If I may interject and respectfully disagree. If there is any
population of professionals in the child and family arena that know
about and work to promote attachment work with fathers it would be
MSWs. It was MSWs, at least in my experiences, that pushed for
delivery room attendance for dads, just for that purpose.
I'm concerned the hospital social workers have become in short supply
over the past cost cutting of HMO's. They know and understand these
issues better than most.
The hidden nexus of father dismissal lies at the same point the
dismissal of family attachment lies, in the public school system. If
there were ever an institution more dedicated, outside the Nazi party
in Germany, to severing the ties of family, those we call attachment,
it would be the public school system.
Very deliberate work is done to redirect the child to attach to the
teachers and to the campus, a mindless, after all, non-entity.
Have a read of John Taylor Gatto's latest book. He lays out, though I
want more access to his sources than he provides, some rather damning
evidence that being exactly the goal of the planners that set up our
current public system over a hundred years ago. Time blurred our
understanding and awareness of it, but the families of those times
understood and defied the authorities and some had to be force
literally at gun point to deliver their children to public schools.
If you wish to explore the issue of fathers being discounted you have
to look at family being discounted as well, and that is what brings us
full circle to the small but growing group of people that recognize
the deep importance of attachment to the family by the child, be it a
large extended family, or a single parent.
Assigning blame to MSWs seems strange to me as I've yet to meet one in
the family and child arena that discounts fathers. What has your
experience been that would lead you to the conclusion you made?
Mark
Mary A. Samios
"Denise Soper" <little...@att.net> wrote in message
news:vGSl8.1192$Jc5....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> I once read in Dr Braselton's book that if a parent sleeps with their
child that the child will eventually be molested!?
.................
Which book? That certainly isn't the stance he takes now:
"When I advised against bringing children into their parents' bed in an
earlier article, I received many letters from parents who felt that sleeping
alone is a custom our society unreasonably demands of its small children. I
was impressed and have learned a great deal from the letters that expressed
this point of view. I hadn't realized how many parents did NOT believe in
helping a child learn to sleep alone at night. Their letters and their
arguments made me reevaluate my rather rigid ideas on handling sleep
problems in our culture."
http://www.parentsplace.com/features/fambed/articles/0,10335,166492_110095,0
0.html
If you read Brazelton's current philosophies, he's pretty much on target for
an attachment or intuitive parenting style.
http://enquirer.com/editions/1999/11/05/loc_dr_brazelton_answers.html
His thoughts on co-sleeping, in particular:
If it's comfortable — and comforting — for you, your partner, and your
child, then bed sharing is acceptable. But for the long term, you should
consider sleep one of the major areas in which he'll need to achieve
independence. Be aware, too, that if he gets in the habit of sleeping with
you, you'll have to work hard to get him back in his own bed. It's hard for
him if you switch the rules from night to night. (When he's an infant, make
sure your bedding is firm and that he isn't overheated — both could increase
his risk of SIDS.)
http://www.babycenter.com/general/baby/babysleep/3678.html
You wrote:
I'd love to know where he got his information from! It's funny because if a
person actually thought about it, and realized that he didn't back that
harsh statement up with proof, they would come to the conclusion that MAYBE
that statement is false..
..........................
Actually, I'd love to know where you got yours -- it sounds like an
incredibly outdated source, or that you are confusing Dr. Brazelton with
someone else...
Mary
mom to Lili, Jenny, and Jack
(and yes, generally I am a "fan" of Brazelton...)
Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
>Assigning blame to MSWs seems strange to me as I've yet to meet one in
>the family and child arena that discounts fathers. What has your
>experience been that would lead you to the conclusion you made?
Clearly you haven't worked in the family law system, where about 98% of
MSWs routinely swallow whole-cloth allegations of DV and child abuse
against fathers because "women (and especially children) don't lie about
these things) and where it is almost impossible to get an SW To recommend
anything other than sole custody to the mother because *of course* the
mother was the primary caretaker, despite all evidence to the contrary
(and, if there has to be an admission that father was the primary
caretaker, then mother should have primary custody to facilitate the
rebonding with mother).
Frankly I'm stunned that you could _not_ be aware of it. It's everywhere,
it's insidious, and it's common knowledge among anyone even remotely
connected to the family law system.
Anne
I am: Mom, Attorney, Professor, Advocate for Fathers and Against Spam
http://www.annepmitchell.com
Resources on intuitive parenting, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, and more
http://www.intuitiveparenting.org
Steve Chase
anyone was really going to pick up on the discussion. Besides, I've been
busy working and finishing up my graduate studies and working fulltime, but
that is another forum.
Anne, we are reading the same books. I read John Gatto's book, "A Different
Kind of Teacher"(2001) Berkley Hill Books, within two days of purchasing the
book for another project on which I have been working for several months. I
have my teaching credential too in addition to the MSW which will be mine in
about 5 weeks. Graduation day is May 10th by the way.
Mr. Gatto, who, incidentally, was New York City's teacher of the year three
times and New York State teacher of the Year once. He levels some harsh
criticism against the educational system in general and in particular the
history and philosophical underpinnings of the public educational system.
As for co-sleeping leading to molesting, I have done a lot of reading of
research and theories regarding sexual abuse and molest. I do not recall
ever finding a link or correlation between co-sleeping and molest. Even
anecdotal stories of molest usually report that when a child is molested it
is the parent moving into the child's bed or bedroom away from the presence
of their spouse.
Of course, if one considers *any* co-sleeping to be inherently inappropriate
and by definition a type of molest. The latter being a position with which I
would whole-heartedly disagree. If co-sleeping were considered molest, then
there would be entire populations in other countries and a large number of
families in this country who would, by definition, be "molesting" their
children. Ridiculous.
At the same time, one would need to ask who's need is guiding the situation.
If the children want to sleep in their own bed then obviously they should be
allowed to do so. Additionally, if an individual parent's history or
behavior leads to that parent being sexually aroused in some manner by the
presence of the child then that would be an indicator that co-sleeping would
not be appropriate for that person.
Tine Thevenin in her book, "The Family Bed." which, of course, explains and
advocates for co-sleeping, handles the issue of sexuality adroitly. She
basically suggests two things. 1. Children who might be exposed to some
sexuality between their parents are probably not harmed psychologically but
the practice would not find general acceptance here in the United States.
2. If the parents are careful planners, they can achieve both co-sleeping
and a satisfying sex life. Quoting a father (p. 112) "If interest is great
enough, a way can be found."
Theverin's book explores the link between deprivation of touch, physical
contact and an increase in violence and pre-marital sexuality. That is a
link for which I believe you will find support in research literature. I.e.
Early deprivation of touch and physical closeness contributing to increased
levels of societal violence and early promiscuous sexual activity.
As for the discussion regarding whether social workers in general are
supportive of fathers or not, I would suggest that clearly you will find
both perspectives. In general, the public social work field was born, more
of less, out of a feminist perspective. You would be hard pressed to find
historical evidence from the social work field which advocates for men as
fathers since one of the common threads of thoughts sees women as oppressed
and victimized by men. At the same time, the social work ethic which leads
to supporting families in whatever form they come, single parent, gay and
lesbians as parents, step-families, can indirectly lead to a devaluing of
fathers in general. That is, fathers are okay if you happen to have one but
generally speaking they are not essential because to suggest that they are
important would de-value some families.
Finally, social workers in public child welfare, where I happen to have
experience for the past 22 years, see men as perpetrators of violence and
abuse against women and children so often, or see their absence as a
contributing factor in a family's distress that disregard, disdain or
outright antagonism against fathers becomes almost endemic to the
experience. I have found myself on more than one occasion having to defend
men in general and fathers in particular with some of my co-workers. I would
like to find ways to advocate more on behalf of fathers through my work and
in court.
Fortunately, there are some, more enlightened social workers who have not
ignored the research related to fathers and their positive impact on their
children when they are both present and engaged in the child rearing
process. Unfortunately, there are many men who are fathers who are simply
present but not engaged in the lives of their children. Longing for fathers
is not only a common theme in psychology but literature and art as well.
Shere Hite's report, "The Hite Report on Male Sexuality" (p. 5) "Almost no
men said they are or have ben close to their fathers." This is one of the
saddest statements or research findings I have ever read.
I'm sorry this post is so long. I el like I have a lot catching up to do on
the discussion.
Finally, I am curious as to what books, articles, web pages, people, or
resources you would recommend as most essential to understanding Attachment
Parenting, Intuitive Parenting or other related topics.
Thanks for Reading
Steve Chase, MSW Intern (7/8's done)