vaccines?
Jet Foncannon
"Yet the medical evidence is clear. Mercury, known as thimerosal, and
other heavy metal additives are highly toxic and threaten children with
neurological damage. The long-term efficacy of global vaccination
remains controversial, inconclusive and is suspect in light of the
powerful corporate interests, lobbying efforts, and profits associated
with a multi-billion dollar vaccine industry.."
Damn. I've misplaced my vomiting bucket.
Gadi Evron
What specifically from the above are you repulsed by?
kurt youngmann
>> The long-term efficacy of global vaccination remains
>> controversial, inconclusive
>
> What specifically from the above are you repulsed by?
I can't speak for Jet Foncannon but the part of the quote cited above
is enough to repulse me! Vaccination, as far as I've been able to
determine, remains controversial only for the anti-vax crowd. Like
evolution it's not a controversy among the scientific cognoscenti any
more than gravity is.
Kurt Youngmann
Jet Foncannon
particular, autism.. Sometime ago this ingredient was removed from
vaccines. The removal had no effect on autism rates.
Gadi Evron wrote:
>On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 11:13 PM, Jet Foncannon <bolu.bolu at
verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>>From the vaccine nation website:
>>
>>"Yet the medical evidence is clear. Mercury, known as thimerosal, and
other
>>heavy metal additives are highly toxic and threaten children with
>>neurological damage. The long-term efficacy of global vaccination
remains
>>controversial, inconclusive and is suspect in light of the powerful
>>corporate interests, lobbying efforts, and profits associated with a
>>multi-billion dollar vaccine industry.."
>>
>>Damn. I've misplaced my vomiting bucket.
>>
>>
>
>What specifically from the above are you repulsed by?
>
>_______________________________________________
>Skeptix mailing list
>Skeptix at lists.opn.org
>http://www.lists.opn.org/mailman/listinfo/skeptix_lists.opn.org
>
Linda Rosa
>What specifically from the above are you repulsed by?
The implication here is that the people making vaccines -- and health
professionals -- are willing to do major harm to children just so
long as they can get big profits.
Study after study has demonstrated that there is no link between
thimerosal and autism. It was taken out of most vaccines only
because of the national scare about it. It is still the preservative
in flu vaccines.
-- Linda
Gadi Evron
Kurt, Jet, Linda,
This is exactly why I asked. While the claims made of mercury and
autism are in all likelihood ridiculous, the blind trust in vaccines
is problematic. Let me explain.
It is clear that vaccinations are an important part of today's
health-care system and our defense against disease. Just check out
H1N1 or Swine Flu if you like.
A couple of years ago I was required to get vaccinated before going
abroad. I said "cool", after all. it's allways good to "boost" or
"upgrade" the immune system, isn't it?
However, due to personal experience which is irrelevant to this post,
I was a bit weary. I did what many of us would have done, and
researched the subject online. Almost every website I found which
spoke to the risk of vaccinations belonged to kooks, or to people who
spoke big, but didn't bring any hard information for me to process.
Scare-mongers.
Some of the scare-data I found claimed:
1. That vaccines are created by using samples from animals, and that
these samples may, and in fact have been in the ast, comtaminated with
other diseases.
2. Other parts in the vaccine creation process weren't very sterile,
either.
3. The vaccine can cause issues in the patient's body.
4. [most popular] the vaccine may give the patient the disease itself.
I certainly believe any of the above is possible, but I can't speak to
that as I don't have direct knowledge nor do I know what the actual
policies are in the creation process. I believe the real risks may
even be completely different. I simply do not know.
On the other end, I found many websites from the health-care world
that gave complete "thumbs-up" to vaccination. Absolute faith. I found
that a bit disturbing, but that's just a feeling, not any actual data.
My current opinion on the subject was formed by meeting people who do
this for a living -- airplanes are always great for socializing. A
scientist who develops vaccines in North America and a scientist who
tries to develop a cure for Malaria in Europe.
The vaccine developer assured me that the process is well thought-out
and that while issues sometimes occur with patients, that is to be
expected. Vaccines are good for us and good for humanity.
The Malaria cure developer admitted vaccines are not his immediate
field of expertise, but he also admitted that, regardless of motive --
it could be pride of profession, practical so people get vaccinated of
terminal diseases, or even financial -- but while people SHOULD get
vaccinated, vaccines are not perfect and such issues do happen.
I am still highly disturbed by the social solidarity of the experts
behind the vaccines, and by the lack of actual data EASILY available
as to risks.
That is why, while I support that vaccination is critical for our
world, and does great things for humanity, I find them very scary. I
don't have information to dispel my fear, and that my friends, annoys
me to no end.
Gadi.
BillK
<snip>
> I am still highly disturbed by the social solidarity of the experts
> behind the vaccines, and by the lack of actual data EASILY available
> as to risks.
>
> That is why, while I support that vaccination is critical for our
> world, and does great things for humanity, I find them very scary. I
> don't have information to dispel my fear, and that my friends, annoys
> me to no end.
>
>
Everything has side effects. People won't give up their cars, even
though thousands are killed and seriously injured every year.
(Far more than are injured by vaccine side-effects).
Smallpox has been eliminated worldwide by vaccination programs. No,
not by better sanitation, diet, etc. as the kook websites claim.
'Worldwide' means that people living in appalling conditions now don't
get smallpox.
<http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/6mishome.htm>
Some Common Misconceptions
about vaccination and how to respond to them
-----------
In the U.S., vaccines have reduced or eliminated many infectious
diseases that once routinely killed or harmed many infants, children,
and adults. However, the viruses and bacteria that cause
vaccine-preventable disease and death still exist and can be passed on
to people who are not protected by vaccines.
Measles
Polio
Type b (Hib) Meningitis
Hepatitis B
Pertussis (Whooping Cough)
Pneumococcal
Rubella (German Measles)
Varicella (Chickenpox)
Diphtheria
Tetanus (Lockjaw)
Mumps
BillK
kurt youngmann
> A couple of years ago I was required to get vaccinated before going
> abroad. I said "cool", after all. it's allways good to "boost" or
> "upgrade" the immune system, isn't it?
No!
In fact there has been a recent discussion of this on the Healthfraud
list. Some diseases, MS for example, are caused by overactive (is
that the correct word?) immune systems.
Kurt Youngmann
Gadi Evron
> though thousands are killed and seriously injured every year.
> (Far more than are injured by vaccine side-effects).
>
> Smallpox has been eliminated worldwide by vaccination programs. No,
> not by better sanitation, diet, etc. as the kook websites claim.
> 'Worldwide' means that people living in appalling conditions now don't
> get smallpox.
I'm with you, but with cars you KNOW thousands are killed. With
vaccines it may be none, it may be 1, and it may be a thousand. I dont
know, do you?
I don't doubt that vaccines are critical for the world health-care and
for our personal health. I do, however, not like that there i little
to no information easily available on risks. Things are not as shiny
as they appear.
Gadi Evron
Wow, really? Interesting.
Perhaps I should have used a different sarcastic analogy, such as "its
always good to update your anti virus".
James J. Lippard
> From: Gadi Evron <ske...@lists.opn.org>
Gadi Evron wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 12:23 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 9/29/09, Gadi Evron wrote:
> > ?<snip>
> >> ?I am still highly disturbed by the social solidarity of the experts
> >> ?behind the vaccines, and by the lack of actual data EASILY available
> >> ?as to risks.
> >>
> >> ?That is why, while I support that vaccination is critical for our
> >> ?world, and does great things for humanity, I find them very scary. I
> >> ?don't have information to dispel my fear, and that my friends,
annoys
> >> ?me to no end.
> >
> > Everything has side effects. People won't give up their cars, even
> > though thousands are killed and seriously injured every year.
> > (Far more than are injured by vaccine side-effects).
> >
> > Smallpox has been eliminated worldwide by vaccination programs. No,
> > not by better sanitation, diet, etc. as the kook websites claim.
> > 'Worldwide' means that people living in appalling conditions now don't
> > get smallpox.
>
> I'm with you, but with cars you KNOW thousands are killed. With
> vaccines it may be none, it may be 1, and it may be a thousand. I dont
> know, do you?
There is data collection on apparent side-effects of vaccines, just as
there is for other medicines. I know the new H1N1 vaccine is
undergoing multiple human clinical trials to collect evidence of
safety and efficacy:
http://www3.niaid.nih.gov/news/QA/vteuH1N1qa.htm
The 1976 swine flu vaccine generated huge news coverage because three
people
who were vaccinated died (though there was no demonstrated connection to
the vaccine, all were elderly men), and there were apparently excess cases
of Guillain-Barre syndrome among the vaccinated population (though this
also was disputed and not conclusive)--and this was with more than 40
million vaccinations given. Fears were compounded by an outbreak
of what's now called Legionnaire's disease, which proved to be caused
by the Legionella bacterium transmitted via contaminated water vapor,
not related to the swine flu vaccine.
The 1976 swine flu vaccine was considered a debacle of vaccination.
I infer that if vaccinations were causing thousands, or even hundreds,
of deaths per year, we'd know about it.
--
Jim Lippard lippard-skeptix at discord.org
http://www.discord.org/
GPG Key ID: 0xF8D42CFE
Bill Steele
>>> Damn. I've misplaced my vomiting bucket.
>>
>>What specifically from the above are you repulsed by?
>
>
>The implication here is that the people making vaccines -- and
>health professionals -- are willing to do major harm to children
>just so long as they can get big profits.
And you find this unlikely? <ahem cough> Tobacco industry <cough>
--
Bill Steele
ws21 at cornell.edu
Press query of the day:
For a column in Woman's World, this week's titled, "The Pizza Topping
You Like Most Reveals a Secret About How You See Yourself," I need to
interview either a food psychologist, nutritionist or pizza expert
who can make the connection.
Gadi Evron
Thank you for the link above. I don't doubt that if thousands were
dying, we'd know about it. Consider however the issues such as the
clearly debunked autism correlation, these are much more difficult to
follow.
However, the WHO does follow disease world-wide closely, and therefore
has a way to monitor such issues as they occur. I do agree. That does
not change the general idea here.
Perhaps the argument should be on whether public discussion would
indeed cause a bigger death-toll, as that is exactly what I complain
is lacking -- information.
Vaccination programs for newborn babies, trumping civil liberties due
to the risk of epidemics, are strong measures which are more then
justifiable. Some of the skeptics claim these were, but are no longer
necessary. I believe that is untrue, and they are still necessary. And
yet, public information is close to nill.
I deal with similar ethical issues all the time in the information
security world, and while sometimes secrecy is necessary, public
information is critical if people are to protect themselves or made an
informed decision.
Gadi.
_______________________________________________
Skeptix mailing list
Ske...@lists.opn.org
http://www.lists.opn.org/mailman/listinfo/skeptix_lists.opn.org
Gadi Evron
quackcast, dealing specifically with these issues.
Quackcast 30. Lets Kill The Children or A Defense of Vaccines Why
vaccines, to quote Mr. Pooh, "Are a Good Thing." 2/22/09
QuackCast 34. Flu Woo for You. 8/19/9
http://www.quackcast.com/page2/page2.html
Gadi.
Linda Rosa
>
>>A couple of years ago I was required to get vaccinated before going
>>abroad. I said "cool", after all. it's allways good to "boost" or
>>"upgrade" the immune system, isn't it?
>
>No!
>
>In fact there has been a recent discussion of this on the
>Healthfraud list. Some diseases, MS for example, are caused by
>overactive (is that the correct word?) immune systems.
>
>Kurt Youngmann
A vaccination only tries to make your immune system ready to target a
specific future invader.
You're in luck, because Mark Crislip has written about this:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=1828
"Boost Your Immune System?" by Mark Crislip
Linda Rosa
>I'm with you, but with cars you KNOW thousands are killed. With
>vaccines it may be none, it may be 1, and it may be a thousand. I dont
>know, do you?
>I don't doubt that vaccines are critical for the world health-care and
>for our personal health. I do, however, not like that there i little
>to no information easily available on risks. Things are not as shiny
>as they appear.
Shiny? It sounds like you want more of a sound bite about the
dangers, which is understandable. This is, however, really a complex
subject . Just roam around the CDC site and see for yourself:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/safety/default.htm
"Vaccine Safety and Adverse Effects"
I also recommend the Science-Based Medicine Blog about immunization.
They have 82 articles there about this issue:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/
When I was a new mother a couple decades ago, I called the
immunization center of the local children's hospital to get the
skinny on all the scare stuff in the press. The guy there gave me a
sound bite for the dangers of routine childhood immunizations. He
said the risk of death is roughly ten times greater for the
un-immunized child.
-- Linda
Gadi Evron
>> I'm with you, but with cars you KNOW thousands are killed. With
>> vaccines it may be none, it may be 1, and it may be a thousand. I dont
>> know, do you?
>> I don't doubt that vaccines are critical for the world health-care and
>> for our personal health. I do, however, not like that there i little
>> to no information easily available on risks. Things are not as shiny
>> as they appear.
>
> Shiny? It sounds like you want more of a sound bite about the dangers,
I'm a security professional, I can't do risk analysis without data.
It's really all I am interested in.
> which is understandable. This is, however, really a complex subject .
Just
> roam around the CDC site and see for yourself:
> http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/safety/default.htm
> "Vaccine Safety and Adverse Effects"
>
> I also recommend the Science-Based Medicine Blog about immunization.
They
> have 82 articles there about this issue:
> http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/
I will check the URLs you have given. Thanks!
Gadi Evron
agenda (not bias) however is clearly to make people trust vaccines,
not to share impartial information.
Gadi Evron
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/ - is also very interesting in
regard to skepticism and alternative medicine.
Linda Rosa
>
>Alright, I examined both URLs. They are indeed interesting. Their
>agenda (not bias) however is clearly to make people trust vaccines,
>not to share impartial information.
Yes, the bias is for...well...science-based medicine.