Christianity and 10,000 billion billion stars in our visible universe
Carl Sagan's billions
understand and make sense of Christianity.
I contemplated and struggled with its basic doctrines, the core
beliefs, the philosophies, the essence, the teachings
and also the contradictions in Old and New Testament.
I thought about the behavior of warrior so-called Christian nations,
often wreaking havoc in non-Christian countries (and now again
conducting horrible bombing wars on non-Christian people
in Afghanistan and Iraq and Somalia).
I tried to understand Genesis/creation, Adam and Eve, the first
couple, Noah, the flood, the many prophets, the Messiah, the
crucifixion, the resurrection, the many other stories and prophecies
in the Bible, etc... I tried to apply reason and logic and
understand it in the grand scheme of things.
Then slowly (over at least 5 years) I came to understand several
truths described below. These truths allowed me to gradually throw
off the yoke, the blinders and the intellectual shackles of a long
childhood indoctrination in Christianity, and amazingly and
steadily and happily and irreversibly
I BECAME FREE ----- FOREVER ------!
That was still pretty dramatic, e.g., when I read Robinson's
Honest-to-God and his brave search for answers (searches
beyond the usual Christian dogmas) I cried and shivered
for hours. He made me see the first glimmer of light and hope
in my own search. This was followed by Teilhard de Chardin's
elaborate ideas of increasing complexity, Dobzhansky's books
on evolution, Bertrand Russell's courage and ideas,
and books on comparative religions, and many more.
'There was no need to fight and struggle anymore - forever':
Not due to surrender, but due to liberation: Liberation from
irrationality, illogic, and indoctrination in ancient religious
beliefs.
I understood ---- and (as happened with Galileo when he understood
the earth position and path in the solar system) these insights
and this freedom were irreversible. I saw the reality of religions,
and with that the mental captivity I had been in in one of them,
Christianity (as well as the other related mono-theistic religions
Islam and Judaism), was broken - - and forever.
The mind broke free and I was off flying unencumbered.
No longer mentally stunted, no longer kept in intellectual bondage,
no longer bogged down and in eternal confusion about things
written in ancient 'holy' books and derived religious texts.
These are the 10 basic (simplified) truths I came to understand:
1. All religions and gods are 'man' made, made and made up
by humans. Not necessarily to deceive but as a result of new
ideas and concepts. These evolved over generations and were
then gradually accepted and written down as the (new) truth, the
(new) philosophy of life, the (new) gospel, the (new) 'true'
religion.
2. The Christian concept and definition of a 'soul' is untenable.
Why? Evolution is a fact but nowhere in the long line of evolution
was the 'soul' (or something like the soul that makes us immortal)
suddenly inserted in a certain species at a discrete point in time.
If I assume that the soul was suddenly inserted in a living
being, e.g., 1 million years ago, we must then argue that his
or her father and mother did not have a soul. We cannot.
This means:
All living beings have a soul or no living beings have a soul. As I
don't believe a worm has a soul, I must conclude that the concept
of a soul in each human being is a man-made construct.
A man-made construct because we have a need to believe that
we (or at least our 'spirit' or our 'soul') are immortal and will
exist forever.
We fear death; we cannot accept being gone forever.
We want to deny death; we need to believe we are immortal.
We have a deep need to formulate a reason for our existence.
We have a deep need to believe that we will outlast all the
pain and misery in our earth-bound lives and will 'live happily
ever after' in a glorious place of light and joy called 'heaven'.
3. There is no heaven and hell. All religions are man-made, and
the concepts of heaven and hell are man-made. They were created
when social groups evolved culturally: To keep individual behavior
in line and within boundaries - to be beneficial to the group or to
its leaders. Heaven was a carrot, hell was the stick.
4. The Christian dogma of sin, with human beings having free choice
to obey or disobey, is untenable, as 'sin', killing, fighting, etc.,
already existed millions of years before human beings came about.
That means in the long line of evolution there was never a discrete
point where the 'first' human being suddenly had free choice to obey
or disobey. That also means the dogma of Christ's death at the cross
to atone for our sins is untenable. Human beings evolved and never
(suddenly) had free choice to obey or dis-obey (=sin).
The man-made Christian God sacrificed his son to atone for all
sins for all people forever for all times. That brilliant idea of
hope and total redemption and forgiveness by the almighty ruler
arose from much older pagan religions that had human sacrifices
at their core:
The ultimate sacrifice, as proof of total obedience and worship,
is giving your own most valuable 'asset', which is to give up and
offer/sacrifice your own son (example in the Abraham-Isaac story).
That's why 'man' eventually came up with the idea that Christ
- the Son, God's Son - was sacrificed by God, the Father, and
died for the sins of all mankind.
This was a BRILLIANT and unlimited expansion of the original
idea behind human sacrifices:
Not only did the all-powerful God himself give part of himself (the
Son) as the sacrifice, this sacrifice was so big,
so ALL encompassing that it forgave ALL sins of ALL human
beings for ALL times -- forever.
This idea is really mind-boggling in its ingenuity, scope and depth,
and that may also explain some of its universal appeal.
However as our species, Homo Sapiens, evolved over millions of
years, there was never an Adam and Eve 6000 years ago.
That means Eve disobeying God and eating from the fruit
never happened. That means the 'fall' in the garden of Eden
never happened. That also means a 'fall' e.g. a million years
earlier never happened.
That means the philosophy of Jesus Christ having to die for our
original sin, for us disobeying God, has no basis in fact.
Our ancestors millions of years ago did not have the
intellectual capacity nor the choice to obey or disobey.
Even if the ideas of original sin and the fall are allegories,
they do not make sense in view of the path of our evolution.
5. The Christian concept that you can only be saved by accepting
Christ as your savior is untenable. As over 4.5 billion on earth are
not Christians and may not even know about Jesus Christ,
it is illogical to assume that God automatically condemns
4.5 billion out of 6.5 billion to hell = eternal suffering.
There are also over 100-200 billion stars in our own galaxy,
and a total of 100-200 billion OTHER galaxies in the visible
universe, each on average containing over 100 billion stars.
Assuming only 1 planet with an intelligent 'civilization' per 1
billion
stars (a very conservative estimate) then there are over
10,000 billion (!) 'civilized' planets in our visible universe.
It is illogical to assume that God sacrificed his son on tens
or even thousands of billions of planets.
6. All religions are man-made, which explains the huge variety of
religions. Any evolving human society develops beliefs about life
and death, which then often morph into absolute beliefs and then
finally into structured beliefs = organized religion.
That's why there are so many religions, so many spin-offs of existing
religions, and why so many new spin-offs and denominations are
created all the time, all over the world. There are always new
thinkers with new ideas, creative thinkers who reject or modify the
older ideas and entice multitudes with newer messages of hope.
7. All religions and their spin-offs are man-made, and the concept of
'God' in Christianity, Islam and Judaism is man-made.
As nowhere in the material world do we see physical acts/actions on
matter by a 'God', there is no reason to assume that an 'immaterial'
God like the Christian or Islamic or Jewish God (who controls,
guards, acts on matter = interferes in our material world) exists.
8. So we have to face the fact, with courage, and conclude that:
GOD IS ABSENT, IS DEAD OR DOES NOT EXIST.
As I find it illogical that if an all powerful God existed, he would
decide to disappear from our material world = universe into some
other universe, or even die, i.e., disappear from all possible
universes, there is only one conclusion left:
There is no immaterial God applying material forces on or into
our physical environment.
That means all physical and chemical occurrences can be
explained (sooner or later) without having to introduce/assume
a supernatural and 'immaterial' being capable of and actively
acting on matter. Therefore the conclusion is that God as
defined by Christianity, Islam and Judaism does not exist
and was made up.
You can only exist if you are matter or tied to matter.
You only exist if you can act upon matter. When tied to matter,
you can be observed, measured, etc., and thus be proven to exist.
Example:
In the 2004 tsunami near Sumatra up to 100,000 innocent children
were killed in just one hour (in total an estimated 220,000 died).
'God' did not do it.
'Satan' did not do it.
Humans did not do it.
The earth core is cooling, forcing huge plates to move,
which occasionally rupture or fracture into earthquakes,
volcanic eruptions, etc., which then can cause terrible
natural catastrophes such as this tsunami.
Nowhere did or does the 'hand of God' act anywhere.
He did not cause it, and he did not prevent it.
9. The mystery of matter and the most crucial question and
most profound mystery of all
--- 'WHY WE (made of matter) EXIST' ----
does not mean we have to assume an all powerful being like the
Christian God who creates, controls, acts on matter,
and rules and monitors everything.
In the last 1000 years more and more mysteries have been explained.
In the coming hundreds of years many more mysteries will be
resolved. That means religious beliefs get pushed back more and
more, away from the current simple absolute religious 'truths'
and beliefs as described in 'holy' books.
Religions always consist of a mixture of man-made philosophies,
myths, theories, taboos, legends, laws, rules, remnants of pagan
religions, etc.. Explanations from hundreds of years or even much
longer ago will be pushed back or often voided by science and more
rational explanations.
That also means a religion such as Christianity can only survive if
it develops a much better explanation and rationale for the mystery
of matter and life, and for our own existence. However Christianity
cannot 're-engineer' itself. It cannot offer a science-based
explanation of life, or even reform itself into a more rational
philosophy of life.
So it will remain an anti-scientific and mostly static belief system,
based on fixed explanations for life and death, made by men and
women who lived hundreds and even thousands of years ago.
The contradiction between what we learn from science and the
fixed explanations from hundreds and thousands of years ago
will grow. Christianity and other similar religions likely will
have difficulty to survive. The psychological human need for
spirituality will not disappear, but the dogmas and beliefs of
religions such as Christianity, Islam and Judaism will become
less and less acceptable to more and more people. The rites,
rituals, songs, communal feelings, music, spiritual teachings and
social interactions may survive but the doctrines and absolute
dogmas are unlikely to survive.
10. The core issue is really a direct conflict between:
o the religious/emotional/non-scientific approach or persona and
o the scientific/rational approach or persona
Spirituality will stay in various forms; dogmatic religions based
on ancient fixed beliefs will slowly disappear or only remain with
smaller and smaller groups of the uneducated or the un-enlightened
or the desperate or the indoctrinated.
There may be long religious revivals and reactions but
on longer terms science and associated education
will (albeit slowly) void ancient belief systems.
However, religions can very well hang on for a long time,
even when becoming unsatisfactory to many people, e.g. if
and when there are no other enticing spiritual/social frameworks
as substitutes or replacements. For scientists that could well be
science and the wonders, the size and the unbelievable beauty
and complexity of the physical universe.
But the masses are poorly educated and never get enthralled
by nature or by scientific exploration and thought. They do
get enthralled by food, drink, sex, entertainment, sports, and
the unending accumulation of material possessions:
The absence or substitute for or even opposite of spirituality.
The basic science-religion conflict is also why so many religions,
including Christianity and Islam, in their core will stay so anti-
science. They can never embrace a much more rational belief
system that so clearly exposes the fallacies in their inherited
belief system.
============================================
Why is rejecting Christianity in my opinion a step forward?
Instead of believing in fixed philosophies, laws and taboos
created by men and women many hundreds and even thousands
of years ago (people who did not know any better (not their fault)),
it is much better to determine your own beliefs and truths.
That will enable us to leave behind outdated laws, fears,
prejudices, misconceptions, racism, intolerance,
supremacy feelings, and ancient ideas about death,
heaven, hell, sin, soul, gods, etc.
That freedom will jettison the religious ballast that is
a constant obstruction and obstacle to a better, more rational
and more humane and spiritually more free world.
Rationality does not ENSURE more humanity, but in my
opinion it is a more promising path than non-rationality
inherent in religions such as Christianity and Islam.
Rationality combined with humanism may guide us
to a better world of fairness, the alleviation of poverty,
of global sharing and caring, and of justice and peace.
Do I think this is feasible? Not that much: Power, greed, racism,
and power politics are super-strong human and societal forces
(for injustice, wars, killing, irrationality, waste, destruction,
hate, intolerance, etc.).
But it may show the direction of hope which we can then analyze
rationally. That may empower and enable us to plan a path and
build societal and global structures to channel, restrict or even
partially control the beast.
With regards,
Michael M. Terra - Carl Sagan's Billions
(Carl Sagan understood the 'grand' magnitude of the universe)
Ken
wrote:
All of which will fly right off the thick skulls of brainwashed
delusional Xtians
John Brockbank
"Carl Sagan's billions" <mm2t...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b1ddd352-bfd8-43e2...@i36g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>when I read Robinson's
> Honest-to-God and his brave search for >answers (searches
> beyond the usual Christian dogmas) I cried and >shivered
> for hours.
That somewhat fanciful message sounds as though you are inventing some sort
of struggle: no doubt you have read such stuff elsewhere and 'borrowed' it
for this stuff.
However the ludicrous thing you say which I have included above gives away
the fact that you are inventing tripe, perhaps to get into the Usenet
version of pseud's corner. Robinson's book was hyped up to be precisely
what you say; perhaps you nicked that off the front cover; but that was
the sales pitch. In fact it was a standard Christian message, put across in
an attempt to be modern and was I am afraid a bit boring.
I reckon you could be Dave in disguise, trying to show that atheists can be
just as obvious phonies as Creationists.
Almost all atheists were either brought up that way, or just grew out of
believing as they grew up. All that crap about how you arrived at this
conclusion is pure rationalisation after the fact.
It is said that AA members can spot a bullshitter at a meeting after about
three seconds, and you would do well to realise that atheists can as well.
traveller
beelzebub
wrote:
> Then slowly (over at least 5 years) I came to understand several
> truths described below. These truths allowed me to gradually throw
> off the yoke, the blinders and the intellectual shackles of a long
> childhood indoctrination in Christianity, and amazingly and
> steadily and happily and irreversibly
>
> I BECAME FREE ----- FOREVER ------!
The indoctrination must run deep because despite your professed
freedom, you are still a slave to the ideas that Christianity has
planted in your psyche. It is a step in the right direction, but true
freedom will be realizing that you don't have to arrive at your own
world view by deconstructing Christian myth on a point by point
basis. Developing your own belief system without the need to
subordinate your old one will be true freedom, and equally as
challenging. Congrats, nonetheless.
David Deley
the fascinating result of my 5 years of studying the follow-up question,
"If Christianity is all bunk, then where did it come from?"
I discovered:
1. There is an immense lack of historical evidence that Jesus ever
existed. There is absolutely none. The story is a myth.
So if Jesus is a myth, then where did this Jesus Story come from?
2. Crucified Saviors existed in many religions prior to the alleged time
of Jesus. (Christian forefathers had a fit trying to explain this.)
If this story is so prevalent, seemingly universal, existing eons before
the alleged time of Jesus, then what does the story mean?
3. The Story is an Astronomical Allegory for the Sun passing through the
Zodiac each year. The sun is the original god that dies on the winter
solstice and is reborn/resurrected 3 days later, on Christmas day!
This last assertion is a bit tentative, but upon examination of the
Jesus Story it's incredible just how much of it actually fits! And it
provides a rational explanation for the origin of religion.
Humans were first hunter/gatherers, then they organized and became
farmers—and this is where religion comes in. In order to farm you need
to be aware of the seasons of the year; you need to be able to
communicate to others your ideas; and you need to be able to pass down
to the next generation the knowledge you've accumulated—hence “The
Book”. You also have to have FAITH that this farming technique will work
and you will be rewarded for your efforts with a bountiful harvest in
the future.
If this theory is correct then ancient Religion was archaic science and
modern science is our new religion.
Lessons explaining basic concepts of observational astronomy, and then
showing the striking parallels between the Jesus Story and the Sun's
annual passage through the Zodiac and the changing seasons of the year,
are at:
http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/index.htm
John Brockbank
"David Deley" <del...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:483F5602...@cox.net...
> If you're interested in learning more in this direction, you can read the
> fascinating result of my 5 years of studying the follow-up question, "If
> Christianity is all bunk, then where did it come from?"
>
> I discovered:
>
> 1. There is an immense lack of historical evidence that Jesus ever
> existed. There is absolutely none. The story is a myth.
>
That is three different opinions in three sentences all in the same
paragraph. It took you 5 years of study to have those three conflicting
opinions?
The truth is that you have seen on some internet site a statement that there
is no evidence for the existence of Jesus and you have accepted it as true.
It is incorrect.
So, which are you saying is actually your position?
There is little evidence.
That of course is sensible and won't get any argument from anyone sane.
There is no evidence.
That is plainly wrong and will only be agreed with by people rather
unconfident about their opinions.
The various stories about Jesus are all myths.
I don't think many people would argue hard about that, as long as it is
understood that myths might well contain truths which have been embellished
in the telling. Just because there is a lot of twaddle about magic being
done does not mean that everything is a lie. The glove didn't seem to fit
OJ, and the racist cop fabricated evidence, but that does not prove OJ
innocent.
mark
> "David Deley" <del...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:483F5602...@cox.net...
>> If you're interested in learning more in this direction, you can read the
>> fascinating result of my 5 years of studying the follow-up question, "If
>> Christianity is all bunk, then where did it come from?"
>>
>> I discovered:
>>
>> 1. There is an immense lack of historical evidence that Jesus ever
>> existed. There is absolutely none. The story is a myth.
>
> That is three different opinions in three sentences all in the same
> paragraph. It took you 5 years of study to have those three conflicting
> opinions?
>
> The truth is that you have seen on some internet site a statement that
> there is no evidence for the existence of Jesus and you have accepted it
> as true. It is incorrect.
>
> So, which are you saying is actually your position?
>
> There is little evidence.
>
> That of course is sensible and won't get any argument from anyone sane.
>
> There is no evidence.
>
> That is plainly wrong and will only be agreed with by people rather
> unconfident about their opinions.
Really? What physical evidence is there?
Let's try this:
a) you want a mother, son, and holy ghost? Check out Isis, Osiris,
and Horus.
b) AFAIK, crucifiction was reserved for one crime: treason against Rome.
Marvin Harris, in "Cows, Pigs, Wars and Witches", notes that that
was not the punishment for thieves, either, and suggests that the
two others crucified at the same day were rather zealots (aka Jewish
terrorists fighting Rome), and that Yeshua bin Miryam was, also,
as a leader of the zealots.
Now, given how anal Romans were about record-keeping, you'd
think that there would be *some* court records or military records
about the crucifiction of a zealot leader.... Got any references?
mark
Jack Slutmuffin
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
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All these arguments suck. Everyone who isn't an Xist sucks. Even Xists
suck.
God Sux most of all.