Who/what is Baphomet?
ROY...@slacvm.slac.stanford.edu
Subject line says all. An honest, straight forward question.
I know nothing of the origins or identity of this entity. What can YOU
tell me? If this is a "forbidden name" or subject, please let me know,
and apologize for any offense...
Paul Ciszek
to an idol of. The name probably comes from a degeneration of "Mahomet".
There is no evidence that the Templars actually *did* worship such a deity,
mind you. There are some books that claim that Templars were (present tense,
at the time of the book) doing so, but they were written after there weren't
any more Templars, and are therefor as reliable as a WWN Exclusive interview
with Elvis.
--
Paul Ciszek, pci...@nyx.cs.du.edu | No nation was ever drunk when wine was
| cheap. -- Thomas Jefferson
Carl E. Anderson
> Subject line says all. An honest, straight forward question.
>I know nothing of the origins or identity of this entity. What can YOU
>tell me? If this is a "forbidden name" or subject, please let me know,
>and apologize for any offense...
No problem. My friend who is majoring in the History of the
Western Occult just explained this to me the other day. This is the
critter that the Templars (oooo! Templars! exciting!) were always getting
accused of worshiping. It was supposed to be a cat-head demon or somesuch
thing.
Actually, it is merely the mistranslation of the name Mohammed.
Simple as that.
Cheers,
Carl
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl Edlund Anderson "Hefi ek ok aldri sva reitt vapn
can...@isr.harvard.edu at manni at eigi hafi vidh kommit."
OR
ande...@husc.harvard.edu - Skarphedhinn Njalsson
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
MICHAEL CARSON
I think it refers to the goat-head in a pentagram with two points up
symbol. I seem to recall something in the Satanic Bible to that effect.
|o|\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/|o|
|o| Of Course I speak | michael carson | Carpe Diem, Man. |o|
|o| only for myself. | c1...@moncol.monmouth.edu | -me |o|
|o| Would YOU let me +---------------------------+-------------------------|o|
|o| speak for you?!? | All flames to: nob...@moncol.monmouth.edu |o|
|o|\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/|o|
Carl E. Anderson
>Baphomet is the name of a god that Knights Templar were accused of praying
>to an idol of. The name probably comes from a degeneration of "Mahomet".
>There is no evidence that the Templars actually *did* worship such a deity,
>mind you. There are some books that claim that Templars were (present tense,
>at the time of the book) doing so, but they were written after there weren't
>any more Templars, and are therefor as reliable as a WWN Exclusive interview
>with Elvis.
The theory goes that the story arose from Templars out there in
"Outremer" that had gone native and might have become Muslims. From there
the "media" just exagerated everything.
The Templars caught a lot of flak because they were a powerful
political and military force - and thus they annoyed other powerful
political and military forces ...
Murray Altheim
>In article <1992Aug28.0...@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> pci...@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek) writes:
>>Baphomet is the name of a god that Knights Templar were accused of praying
>>to an idol of. The name probably comes from a degeneration of "Mahomet".
>>There is no evidence that the Templars actually *did* worship such a deity,
>>mind you. There are some books that claim that Templars were (present tense,
>>at the time of the book) doing so, but they were written after there weren't
>>any more Templars, and are therefor as reliable as a WWN Exclusive interview
>>with Elvis.
>
> The theory goes that the story arose from Templars out there in
>"Outremer" that had gone native and might have become Muslims. From there
>the "media" just exagerated everything.
> The Templars caught a lot of flak because they were a powerful
>political and military force - and thus they annoyed other powerful
>political and military forces ...
>
>Carl
Actually, it's not conjecture. Mohammed -> Mahomet -> Baphomet is correct.
The spelling of Mohammed was "Mahomet" in certain languages of the period.
The Templars were a Christian order charged with guarding the Temple of
Solomon, and in guarding Christian pilgrims on their trek to the Holy Land.
At the height of their power, they are said to have numbered 15,000 armed
knights. In 1317, the Inquisition brought them to trial on charges of
sodomy, praying to another god, and some other _strange_ acts. The Templars
were among the most worldly and travelled people in Europe, so it's not
surprising that their access to other cultures would influence their views.
Part of the mystery surrounding them is why there was no evidence of struggle,
they all just laid down their arms and/or disappeared. Their treasure was
never found, and other than Jacques de Molay, no other leaders were convicted.
A number of Templar gravesites have been found in Scotland, and their is
fair evidence that at the very least they were influential in the Masonic
Temple, and participated in a number of battles against the English.
For a bit of fun, Lawrence Durrell includes the hunt for the Templar treasure
as well as a fairly accurate history in two of his fiction series, both
in the Alexandria Quartet, and especially his Avignon Quincunx (four books
around a central fifth text). Some people might not like his style -- he is
an inveterate word-crafter and very "thick", but among _my_ favorites.
Blessings,
Murray
--
Murray M. Altheim "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
Instructional Consultant La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
CSU, Sacramento Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
alth...@csus.edu Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."
Richard Darsie
>
[stuff about Templars deleted]
Anyone remember a weird sci-fi book called "Baphomet's Meteor"?
It was written about 15-20 years ago by some French guy and
in it, "Baphomet" is a stranded extraterrestrial who cuts a deal
with the Templars (it happens to be a Templar who finds his ship).
"Baphomet's" intentions turned out to be less than benign and
he was finally defeated by some Templars who sought mystical help
from Tibetan lamas (!).
Would have made a good B-movie.
Richard
(Tuneweaver)
Robert Knox
>
... lots of stuff about the Templars deleted
>For a bit of fun, Lawrence Durrell includes the hunt for the Templar treasure
>as well as a fairly accurate history in two of his fiction series, both
>in the Alexandria Quartet, and especially his Avignon Quincunx (four books
>around a central fifth text). Some people might not like his style -- he is
>an inveterate word-crafter and very "thick", but among _my_ favorites.
>
For more (obscure) fun with the Templars, there's always Umberto
Eco's _Focault's Pendulum_. But occultists beware, Eco is rather
sarcastic and nastly about various occult movements. Depending on
your loyalties and sense of humor you may not find it very funny.
Much of the book centers around a vanity press that starts a series
of books by rich crackpot occultists--referred to behind their backs
as "diabolicals." Only thing is, the way the world seems to work
is not independent of what gets published about it. A good unabridged
dictionary and encyclopedia or a "cheat sheet" for the book (available
on the net) is also important to get through the first 75 pages.
>Blessings,
>
>Murray
>
>--
>Murray M. Altheim "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
>Instructional Consultant La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
>CSU, Sacramento Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
>alth...@csus.edu Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."
BB,
Nathair bheag
Donal
> In article <1992Aug28.1...@burrhus.harvard.edu> can...@isr.harvard.e
> >In article <1992Aug28.0...@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> pci...@nyx.cs.du.ed
> >>Baphomet is the name of a god that Knights Templar were accused of praying
> >>to an idol of. The name probably comes from a degeneration of "Mahomet".
> >>There is no evidence that the Templars actually *did* worship such a deity,
> >>mind you. There are some books that claim that Templars were (present tens
> >>at the time of the book) doing so, but they were written after there weren'
> >>any more Templars, and are therefor as reliable as a WWN Exclusive intervie
> >>with Elvis.
> >
> > The theory goes that the story arose from Templars out there in
> >"Outremer" that had gone native and might have become Muslims. From there
> >the "media" just exagerated everything.
> > The Templars caught a lot of flak because they were a powerful
> >political and military force - and thus they annoyed other powerful
> >political and military forces ...
> >
> >Carl
>
> Actually, it's not conjecture. Mohammed -> Mahomet -> Baphomet is correct.
> The spelling of Mohammed was "Mahomet" in certain languages of the period.
>
> The Templars were a Christian order charged with guarding the Temple of
> Solomon, and in guarding Christian pilgrims on their trek to the Holy Land.
>
> At the height of their power, they are said to have numbered 15,000 armed
> knights. In 1317, the Inquisition brought them to trial on charges of
> sodomy, praying to another god, and some other _strange_ acts. The Templars
> were among the most worldly and travelled people in Europe, so it's not
> surprising that their access to other cultures would influence their views.
>
> Part of the mystery surrounding them is why there was no evidence of struggle
> they all just laid down their arms and/or disappeared. Their treasure was
> never found, and other than Jacques de Molay, no other leaders were convicted
>
> A number of Templar gravesites have been found in Scotland, and their is
> fair evidence that at the very least they were influential in the Masonic
> Temple, and participated in a number of battles against the English.
>
> For a bit of fun, Lawrence Durrell includes the hunt for the Templar treasure
> as well as a fairly accurate history in two of his fiction series, both
> in the Alexandria Quartet, and especially his Avignon Quincunx (four books
> around a central fifth text). Some people might not like his style -- he is
> an inveterate word-crafter and very "thick", but among _my_ favorites.
>
> Blessings,
>
> Murray
>
> --
> Murray M. Altheim "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
> Instructional Consultant La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
> CSU, Sacramento Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
> alth...@csus.edu Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."
For more interesting semi-fictional history of the Templars, see
_Focault's Pendulum_ by the same guy that wrote _Name of the Rose_...
just can't seem to pull the name out of the air!!! (I hate it when this
happens)... anyway F's P is a magnificent book, and should give all of us
who are in esoteric pursuits a moments pause!
Blessed Be!
--------------------
Donal, Sysop of The Brewer's Witch BBS -- +1 713 272 7350
(Internet) do...@brewich.hou.tx.us (Work) bill%ps...@lobster.hou.tx.us
(CIS) 76460,1443
(SCA) Ld. Donal Dubh, IC of Dun Bruddair, B of the Stargate, K of Ansteorra
B.A. Davis-Howe
>A number of Templar gravesites have been found in Scotland, and their is
>fair evidence that at the very least they were influential in the Masonic
>Temple, and participated in a number of battles against the English.
Umm, Masonry didn't exist back then, according to all the scholarship I've
seen which is not obviously conspiracy theory. Eddie, can you help us out
with a date for the origins of Masonry?
Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
Br'anArthur
Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)
Ben Cushman
True-- the Masons didn't exist until around 500 years after the
Knights Templar were officially disbanded. That, however, is not to say
that the Masonic Tradition is not, in part, inspired from Templar History.
In fact, Masons trace part of there origin back to the Templars, and some
Masonic ranks are reminiscent of Templar ranks, traditions and
aspirations. (I don't have my copy of Morals and Dogma with me, and I
haven't memorized it yet, but I would be glad to answer specific questions
regarding this issue that interested persons e-mail to me (: )
Ben Cushman
Paul Ciszek
>Umm, Masonry didn't exist back then, according to all the scholarship I've
>seen which is not obviously conspiracy theory. Eddie, can you help us out
>with a date for the origins of Masonry?
The fact that the Masons have an "Order of deMolay" would seem to imply that
they at least like to pretend that they have some connection to the Templars.
rtsu...@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Okay, about 15 people came along with the answer I knew already, but it
reminded me of another one. The name Baphomet came up in conversation one day
and one person stated that it was a good deity, the god who killed Tiamat (who
was actually Marduk, if I haven't stayed up *too* late). Can anyone suggest how
this confusion may have arisen?
--Semhaza
Ian Fraser
There has been much scholarship addressed to the question of whether Freemasons
have a common past with the Knights Templar. Among the excellent books on the
subject, I reccommend "Born in Blood" and "The Temple and the Lodge." Both
address the question of the origins of Freemasonry. There is a lot of
contreversy about whether or not the Craft came from the guilds of the Middle
Ages, or were an outgrowth of other esoteric traditions. The question devides
many Masons, and there is no "right" answer. Myself, I doubt that the Guilds
were the source. certainly, serious Masonic scholars must concede that there
was some source prior to 1717, and the founding of the Grand Lodge of England,
if only because many of the british lodges cite origins that pre-date this
event.
' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '
Bright Blessings to you and yours!
Hawk
Circle of Ashtoreth,
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
Eshin-Fun
:
: Subject line says all. An honest, straight forward question.
: I know nothing of the origins or identity of this entity. What can YOU
: tell me? If this is a "forbidden name" or subject, please let me know,
: and apologize for any offense..<<<
"The name of the Templar Baphomet, which should be spelt Kabbalistically
backwards, is composed of three abbrevations: TEM, OPH. AB., *Templi omneum
hominum pacis abbas, "father of the temple of universal peace among men"
According to some, the Baphomet was a monstrous head; accordeing to others,
a demon in the form of a goat.
A sculptured coffer was disintered recently in the ruins of an old
commandery of the temple, and antiquaries observed upon it a baphomeetic
figure, corresponding by its attributes to the goat of Mendes and the
androgune of Kunrath. It was a bearded figure with a female body, holding
the sun in one hand and the moon iun the other, attached to chains. "
[transcendental Magic by Eliphas Levi]
It is believed that the Knights of the Templar learned of this "god" in
Egypt. If so, and if in fact it is identified to the asomw "goat of Mendes"
it is then misleading to fashion the Sabbatic Goat that Eliphas Levi
designed, and has been consequently adopted by Crowlians and witches alike
as the god that the Templars had an image of.
The god that this research leads to, considering the period and the
practices of the Templars is not anything as E.Levi would have us believe.
It is in fact one of the oldest gods of Egypt and in hieroglyphics states
this fact as well. It is the god MIN (AMSU) whom stood upright with one hand
up holding a flagalium and the other down on his erect penis. MIN was
identified with PTEH (Ptah) and with AMN R' (Amon-Ra).
On the walls of the temples of AMN R' in Medinet Habu and at Karnak MIN is
synchrotised as one and the same as AMN but then as an individual entity
itself. MIN is an ancient prehistoric gof of the Egypt from Fayum and
remained its popularity till the very end. MIN is synonimus with ATUM the
self created diety in the Egyptian creation.
Consequently in different religious centers, this MIN was inevitably
identified with Ra, Thoth, Amun-Ra, Monthu, Osiris, Ptah, etc.
It is conceivable that the Templars, an exclusively male oriented society,
could have chosen such a mystery to edify their masculine potentcy for which
they were eventually both criticised and destroyed for, in the eyes of the
Christian church.
Eshin-Fun
Murray Altheim
[discussion of Baphomet/Mahomet/Mohammed and the Templars:]
>alth...@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim) writes:
>> <1992Aug28.1...@burrhus.harvard.edu> can...@isr.harvard.e
>> <1992Aug28.0...@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> pci...@nyx.cs.du.ed
>>
>> Actually, it's not conjecture. Mohammed -> Mahomet -> Baphomet is correct.
>> The spelling of Mohammed was "Mahomet" in certain languages of the period.
>>
>> The Templars were a Christian order charged with guarding the Temple of
>> Solomon, and in guarding Christian pilgrims on their trek to the Holy Land.
>> For a bit of fun, Lawrence Durrell includes the hunt for the Templar treasure
>> as well as a fairly accurate history in two of his fiction series, both
>> in the Alexandria Quartet, and especially his Avignon Quincunx (four books
>> around a central fifth text). Some people might not like his style -- he is
>> an inveterate word-crafter and very "thick", but among _my_ favorites.
>>
>> Blessings,
>>
>> Murray
>
>_Focault's Pendulum_ by the same guy that wrote _Name of the Rose_...
>just can't seem to pull the name out of the air!!! (I hate it when this
>happens)... anyway F's P is a magnificent book, and should give all of us
>who are in esoteric pursuits a moments pause!
>
>Blessed Be!
>
>(Internet) do...@brewich.hou.tx.us (Work) bill%ps...@lobster.hou.tx.us
>(CIS) 76460,1443
>(SCA) Ld. Donal Dubh, IC of Dun Bruddair, B of the Stargate, K of Ansteorra
Just to insert a difference of taste, the reason I didn't mention Foucault's
Pendulum is that, while I admit Umberto Eco is a formidable thinker, his
books are rather ponderous. Some people like gaming theory and enjoy the
play. Durrell is an equally complex writer, but in a different vein. I do
admit that the discussion of the Templar history is very well thought out by
Eco, and agrees with Durrell and the other sources of Templar history I've
read.
To each his/her own... :-)
Ciaran Benson
As a service of our National Parks System, this post is
ranked HIGH on the potential flame scale.
Burn at your own risk.
> >b...@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
>
> >Umm, Masonry didn't exist back then, according to all the scholarship I've
> >seen which is not obviously conspiracy theory. Eddie, can you help us out
> >with a date for the origins of Masonry?
>
> pci...@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek) writes:
>
> The fact that the Masons have an "Order of deMolay" would seem to imply that
> they at least like to pretend that they have some connection to the
> Templars.
I was working on a sword and scabbard that a friend bought at
an auction. It was heavily corroded and had lots of dirt built
up on the scabbard, so it took about two days to get it worked
down where I could start decyphering the symbols on it.
Nice scabbard. Silver inlays, silverplate bands, inlaid
occult symbols down the length of it.
First one was easy -- Gnostic tree of life. Second one was
a little harder -- Masonic Mogan David. Third one took lots of
polishing and cleaning to get readable -- Templars.
Templars! I screamed as I threw the scabbard the full length
of the workshop and set to washing my hands. Templars! I fumed
as I burnt the rags I'd been using to clean the scabbard.
Templars! I stated as I returned the sword and scabbard,
unfinished, to my friend, who appologied profusely.
He needn't have appologised. It wasn't his fault. He didn't
know any better than I did when I'd started working on it.
Templars.
Like finding out that a piece I was asked to clean up had
been used by the Inquisition.
My father was a Mason for several years and got rather high
up in the local temple structure. He says that there is still
a Templar branch of some sort in the heirarchy, and that he
had been offered the rank but refused it.
I don't know if the Masonic Knights Templar go all the way
back to the "Poor Knights" of the crusades. I hope not, but
it seems reasonable that they would have fit into the structure
of the Masons.
When people ask me what my problem is with the Templars, I
point them to "Alexander Nevosky", a black-and-white subtitled
Russian movie about an attempted invasion of Rus by the German
Templars. The scenes of the Templars descending on the Rus
homeland were roto-scoped and used by Bashi in the Lord of
the Rings movie as the undead hords of Mordor. He didn't have
to change much.
Not that an old black-and-white movie was the basis for my
feelings about the Templars. It's not. It just gave me something
to point to and say; "Look. There. That's what I think about
when someone starts talking to me about 'Soldiers for Christ'".
Maybe being part Lithuanian and having lost relatives to the
revolution doesn't help. Maybe that my grandmother's parents
were turned over to the purification troups by the church doesn't
help either. Maybe that the church absorbed all of my great-
grandparent's lands and property doesn't add much good-will
in the back of my mind.
Maybe the reason I spit so profusely on the Templars is that
the only reason the church survived there in the first place
was that they burnt to the ground any city, town, or village that
got in its way, often including its inhabitants.
Cut off forever was a graceful and splendid civilization.
Cut off forever was my Lithuanian heritage, and all that
survives to today is vestiges of an ancient religion, couched
in a few folk traditions that my grandparents passed on.
Monoculturalism is, IMNSHO, just poison. Destroying anything
which is different than ourselves is BAD EVOLUTIONAL PLANNING.
Philosophies included.
Hmmm ... is my extreme distaste for the Templars showing?
Probably. Frankly, I consider them one of the last vestiges
of the Inquisition.
But, that's just my not at all humble opinion. They have
the right to not like me and my kind, and I have the right
to not like them and their kind. I can speak out against
them, and they can speak out against me.
Smokey reminds us; only YOU can prevent net.fires.
Blessed flaming be, Ciaran.
$uslinit; include oblig.sig <<
"...And here, Queen Aphrodite, pour heavenly nectar into gold
cups, and fill them gracefully with sudden joy." -- Sappho >>
Murray Altheim
Br'anArthur,
I was using the book Ian Fraser (Hawk) mentions as a source for the origins
of Freemasonry, _The Temple and the Lodge_, written by two journalists whose
names I can't remember (I have the book if anyone's interested in more info)
and I felt their arguments were not stretching the imagination too far.
They provided photos of Templar gravesites in Scotland. A Templar grave was
a simple ground level stone on which was hammered the outline of the knight's
sword, and nothing more. If I remember right, there were about 40 or 50
such sites found. They also went into battle records and found some references
to figures showing up on horseback who had a substantial military advantage
over the rest of the soldiers, and their description is similar to a
mounted Templar knight.
Beyond that (and there is a lot more in the book), it makes a lot of sense
that Scotland would have made a good refuge for fleeing Templars, and it
seems that the largely pagan-run guilds would have made a safe haven.
Between the backward-pointing titles in Masonry (such as the Order of
deMolay, the Templar leader), and the forward-pointing evidence of
surviving Templar beliefs, I tend to stick with my earlier contention that
the "proto-Freemasonic" traditions were either formed out of Templar
ideas, or at least heavily influenced by them.
Bless sings the Blues,
Bee pops some Reds,
Miles plays some Jazz,
Ize goes to Beds. (don't ask me where THAT came from...)
Shava Nerad Averett
>>A number of Templar gravesites have been found in Scotland, and their is
>>fair evidence that at the very least they were influential in the Masonic
>>Temple, and participated in a number of battles against the English.
>
>Umm, Masonry didn't exist back then, according to all the scholarship I've
>seen which is not obviously conspiracy theory. Eddie, can you help us out
>with a date for the origins of Masonry?
Hmmm... If that's "my" Eddie, he doesn't read alt.pagan. However, one
of the earliest references to masonic style organizations is contemporary
with Queen Elizabeth (and Dee and Kelley and Bruno), so say, early 1600's.
For more information, look under Rosicrucians in the index of Frances
Yates' Giordano_Bruno_and_the_Hermetic_Tradition. How does this compare
with dates on the Templars?
--
Shava Nerad Averett shava_...@unc.edu
/* all materials (c)1992, Shava Nerad Averett, and have nothing significant
to do with the University of North Carolina, a mostly owned subsidiary
of the NC Legislature, a mostly owned subsidiary of the DOT. */
Janis Maria Cortese
> As a service of our National Parks System, this post is
>ranked HIGH on the potential flame scale.
>
> Burn at your own risk.
[Ciaran's post about Templars deleted]
Hon, I thought I knew a smidgen about the Knights Templar, but I had no
idea that they had done anything worthy of pissing someone off to this
extent. It was my understanding that they were just a bit different and
suffered under the Church when their power began waning. What the hell
did they do that was so awful? This is a serious question. I thought I
knew more than most about the Knights Templar and never ran into
anything distasteful that was attributed to them by any other than their
enemies, and it was the usual "devilry" of which anyone stomped on by
the Church stood accused.
Blessings,
Janis the Most Curious
Robert Mathiesen
er who did a job on Prussia and eventually also other Baltic and Slavic lands.
I certainly agree with your dislike of crusading orders, but rage is more effe
ctive when combined with knowledge. -- Robert
Ailsa N.T. Murphy
> For a bit of fun, Lawrence Durrell includes the hunt for the Templar treasure
> as well as a fairly accurate history in two of his fiction series, both
> in the Alexandria Quartet, and especially his Avignon Quincunx (four books
> around a central fifth text). Some people might not like his style -- he is
> an inveterate word-crafter and very "thick", but among _my_ favorites.
>
nothign to do with paganism, but has anyone ever read _my family and other
animals_ by gerald durrell? i've always felt closer to lawrence durrell having
read that, but i also have trouble taking him seriously, as gerry describes
laurie as being such a fool... great book, highly recommended. although i
suppose anything by gerald durrell may be considered pagan after a fashion...
-ailsa
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
wang!ailanth!ai...@ulowell.ulowell.edu ________
No visible means of support Silence \ / Action
and you have not seen nothing yet. = \ / =
Everything's come together. Death \ / Life
\/
Corun MacAnndra
>Umm, Masonry didn't exist back then, according to all the scholarship I've
>seen which is not obviously conspiracy theory. Eddie, can you help us out
>with a date for the origins of Masonry?
>
> Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
> Br'anArthur
I had always heard that the Masons went as far back as Alexander the Great.
Maybe not the modern Masonic Temple as we know it (or as well as anyone not
a Mason can know it) today, or the Sottish Rites crew, but the basic premises
and such. I will admit to not having studied Masonry, but this is what I've
heard. I will await further additions to this thread eagerly. The Masons
have always intrigued me.
Bb,
Corun
--
===========================================================================
Corun MacAnndra | The great thing about travel is getting to
Dark Horde by birth | meet new people and see new places.
Moritu by choice | G. Khan
Janis Maria Cortese
>In article <BtqCJ...@news.cso.uiuc.edu> b...@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
>
>>Umm, Masonry didn't exist back then, according to all the scholarship I've
>>seen which is not obviously conspiracy theory. Eddie, can you help us out
>>with a date for the origins of Masonry?
>>
>> Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
>> Br'anArthur
>
>I had always heard that the Masons went as far back as Alexander the Great.
>Maybe not the modern Masonic Temple as we know it (or as well as anyone not
>a Mason can know it) today, or the Sottish Rites crew, but the basic premises
>and such.
People say the same thing about Paganism and witchcraft, and they are
right. They basic ideas go back to paleolithic culture.
But, they sure ain't the same!
>I will admit to not having studied Masonry, but this is what I've
>heard. I will await further additions to this thread eagerly. The Masons
>have always intrigued me.
I'm kind of interested, too. I've evidently not given them enough
mental air time; they always seemed a little like Fred Flintstone's
Loyal Order of Water Buffalos. Seems I'm due for a reality check, huh?
(I've also heard things about how they are closely related to the
Mormons.)
Blessings,
Janis
Murray Altheim
>In article <1992Aug29....@access.digex.com> co...@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra) writes:
>>In article <BtqCJ...@news.cso.uiuc.edu> b...@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
>>
>>>Umm, Masonry didn't exist back then, according to all the scholarship I've
>>>seen which is not obviously conspiracy theory. Eddie, can you help us out
>>>with a date for the origins of Masonry?
>>>
>>> Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
>>> Br'anArthur
>>
>>I had always heard that the Masons went as far back as Alexander the Great.
>>Maybe not the modern Masonic Temple as we know it (or as well as anyone not
>>a Mason can know it) today, or the Sottish Rites crew, but the basic premises
>>and such.
>
>mental air time; they always seemed a little like Fred Flintstone's
>Loyal Order of Water Buffalos. Seems I'm due for a reality check, huh?
>(I've also heard things about how they are closely related to the
>Mormons.)
>
>Blessings,
>Janis
As far as I remember, they go back to the fire sale at Woolworth's on
August 13th, 67 B.C. when Joseph ben Gazoomie slapped Amid ben Gazonga's
wife because she had insulted his choice of sandal. The Gazoomies fled into
the Temple of Solomon and were protected by an order of religious knights
who called themselves the Order of the ProtoTemplars. This order's inner
circle was called the Moomesons, which translated from the Aramaic becomes
Masons. The prefix "Free" was added in the middle ages when Bubba ben
Gazoomie (not actually related to Joseph ben Gazoomie, as he had changed
his name) started a blood and carrot cult that lasted well into the 1500's,
and later was connected with the Mormon church and Joseph ben Smith.
OK, maybe I'm a little more smiles than yesterday. I just made a plane
reservation to go visit my love in Vermont. Haven't seen her since April
and I'm a little nervous, but at least smiling. Thanks all for the
encouragement.
Blessings to you all,
The Somewhat More Cheered Up Murray
Ciaran Benson
and From: SL50...@brownvm.brown.edu (Robert Mathiesen)
d'Oh ... damn. I hate it when I build up a good head of steam
on the wrong group.
You're right, I'm sorry. I spit on the Teutonic orders, not
on the Templar orders.
I do the same thing with first names -- I learn one person's
name that starts with a "J", and in the process forget someone
else's that starts with a "J". Yupper, Janis, that means that
yesterday I called "Jim", "Janis". Boy, was he confused!
Anyways, I looked at that post again and was kinda struck by
the venom that I'd spewed. If it's any help, I wasn't trying
to be historically correct, I just had some spleen to vent.
Funny story, though ...
I was working out for a stage-fighting sequence we were doing
for *The Scottish Tragedy*, and one of the others in the cast
came up and asked if I wanted to do some free-style with broad-
swords. We were getting warmed up, and he says; "Boy, ya know,
this makes me feel just like a Teutonic Knight!"
So I says, with red glowing eyes; "How'd ya like to REALLY
feel like a Teutonic Knight? Stand there whilst I find something
BIG to HIT you wif !!"
After that, the fight director called me "the machine" and would
send people over for 10-minute workouts if he didn't think they
were giving it their all.
So thank you world, for allowing me this little tirade. I'll
sit back now and breath easier for awhile.
It does make me want to sit down with my Grandmother and talk
with her ALOT about what happened when she was smuggled out of
Lithuania, and what she remembers about life there.
All she's told me about it is the trouble they had with the
church trying to get out, and a few tidbits about magic.
Grandma's tidbit #1; If you're going to make something to
last, make it magical. It'll be lighter, last longer, and
do its job truer.
Maybe I'll make that my sig.
Blessed be, Ciaran.
Ciaran Benson
Yeh -- you're right. I made amends in a different post.
Guess I was just spitting up some of the venom that Grandma
taught me.
As for rage being more effective when combined with knowledge?
I don't know -- that pissy, venomous, rageful, blind, and
ignorant rant I did felt pretty damned good. Kinda like coming
home at the end of the day and kicking the dog. You're sorry
you did it, but somehow it took a little of the edge off
of the day.
Ok, ok, no I DON'T kick dogs at the end of the day.
I don't have any dogs. I have cats, and being sharp on five
of their six ends, I kick furniture instead. Nor do I advocate
the kicking of things as a way of working out frustrations.
I advocate writing books or poetry. Working out with 6 pounds
of edged steel also kinda works out the kinks in the back of
the mind. Or zazen, but only if you REALLY wanna work up a
sweat (I added that just for you, Murray :).
On another note ...
Some folks have asked me wherein lies the wisdom of being
rageful about things which happened a long time ago.
Well, in the case of Lithuania, I think it could be argued that
its just NOW climbing out from underneath oppression and looking
for its cultural roots.
Also, although it's potentially (and, I'm sure, arguably) a
BAD THING to allow anger about past transgressions serve as a
portion of your definition of yourself, I find that anger about
Tienemen (sp?) Square, Nixon, the Kent State shootings, the
(still on-going) Iran Contra coverup, Little Big Horn, The
Holocaust, the attempted reconstruction of the history of The
Holocaust, the burning times, the inquisition, and What Happened
In The Baltic States and What CONTINUES to Happen In The
Baltic States helps me define myself and what I DON'T like
about the world, and what I like to keep an eye out for.
Sure, the dog that bit us during the burning times is dead and
buried. But it had puppies, and those puppies have had puppies.
So I kinda walk carefully whenever one of those puppies starts
making yapping noises about my freedoms -- it's ancestors bled
my ancestors to death, and not so long ago that the pattern
is completely unrecognisable.
But you're right. I spewed about the wrong group.
If there are any Templars out there (as it seems there might
be if they are indeed an order of the Masons), then my sincere
appologies for any slight, intentional or inferred, which I
have through word, deed, or inaction conveyed upon you, your
families, your households, or your order. I was ingorantly
in the wrong and shot my mouth off.
If there's any Knights of the Teutonic Order out there, be
warned, your kind and my kind have a blood feud.
Maybe this is some of what's going on in what used to be
the Urals. Old you-killed-my-brother-and-I'm-gonna-kill-you
the-second-I-get-the-chance feuds getting passed from parent
to child until it's ethnic groups rather than individuals mad
at each other and finally getting the chance.
Blessed be, Ciaran
Janis Maria Cortese
>
> On another note ...
>
> Some folks have asked me wherein lies the wisdom of being
>rageful about things which happened a long time ago.
>
> Well, in the case of Lithuania, I think it could be argued that
>its just NOW climbing out from underneath oppression and looking
>for its cultural roots.
>
> Also, although it's potentially (and, I'm sure, arguably) a
>BAD THING to allow anger about past transgressions serve as a
>portion of your definition of yourself, I find that anger about
>Tienemen (sp?) Square, Nixon, the Kent State shootings, the
Tien An Men, as far as I know.
>(still on-going) Iran Contra coverup, Little Big Horn, The
>Holocaust, the attempted reconstruction of the history of The
>Holocaust, the burning times, the inquisition, and What Happened
>In The Baltic States and What CONTINUES to Happen In The
>Baltic States helps me define myself and what I DON'T like
>about the world, and what I like to keep an eye out for.
Where is the "wisdom" in getting angry about things that happened years
ago? Oh, really. This from a bunch of people who use the phrase
"Burning Times" regularly.
Chr-r-r-r-r-rist, people, the past creates the present. It's what got
us where we are. Of COURSE it's constructive to get pissed about it --
how the hell else are you going to avoid doing the same old shit again in
the future? Ask a Native American whose stuck in some dirt-poor
reservation somewhere with no job, no land, and no hope of improvement,
"Why get so angry about what happened to your ancestors years ago?" and
see what they say. What happened to their ancestors years ago is what
put THEM in such a shitty situation, stupid (not you, hon).
If anger is part of your definition for yourself, well then it's part
of your definition for yourself. I've found that (and I am NOT making an
open slam on SWAGs so puh-LEEEEZE don't accuse me of it; I happen to be
in LOVE with a SWAG) only people who are SWAG or at least SW have
the nerve to look people who have suffered great injustice in the eye and
say, "But your anger is just not constructive, dear." It reminds me of
a line in _To Kill a Mockingbird_ when a bunch of white women are having
a little coffee get-together, and they are all complaining about how the
news of Tom Robinson's conviction is just making their lives harder by
making their darkies so uppity and hard to deal with. One of the women
said something like, "I know just what you mean. My girl has been just
such a grumbler since it happened (Robinson was accused of rape unjustly
and convicted by an all-white jury when it was obvious he didn't do it).
I said to her, `Prissy (as good a stereotypical name as any), Jesus
Christ didn't go around grumbling when things got bad.' And she just
looked at me and said, `No ma'am, He didn't.'"
People get pissed about this stuff, especially when it hits close to
home; deal with it.
Again, and pardon my shouting -- THE PAST CREATES THE PRESENT. IT HAS
EVERY POSSIBLE BEARING ON WHERE WE ARE NOW, AND AS SUCH IT IS PERFECTLY
LOGICAL TO GET BUGGED ABOUT IT. IT CAN HAPPEN AGAIN, AND GETTING ANGRY
MAY HELP PREVENT THAT.
> Sure, the dog that bit us during the burning times is dead and
>buried. But it had puppies, and those puppies have had puppies.
MARVELOUS metaphor!
>So I kinda walk carefully whenever one of those puppies starts
>making yapping noises about my freedoms -- its ancestors bled
>my ancestors to death, and not so long ago that the pattern
>is completely unrecognisable.
>
> But you're right. I spewed about the wrong group.
You are a very big person to be able to admit that after spewing such
venom.
> Maybe this is some of what's going on in what used to be
>the Urals. Old you-killed-my-brother-and-I'm-gonna-kill-you
>the-second-I-get-the-chance feuds getting passed from parent
>to child until it's ethnic groups rather than individuals mad
>at each other and finally getting the chance.
As long as you try to approach people individually, it's okay to spew.
I was trounced soundly day in and day out for being a dago girl (tall,
skinny, funny-looking, with glasses, and getting straight A's) by nice
little cute freckled Irish kiddies, and to this day, I cannot enjoy
Celtic music and go out of my WAY to wear red on St. Patrick's day. My
father's home in Philadelphia was also broken into and trashed by the
neighborhood Irish wives who didn't want those smelly wops moving in.
These things have an impact on someone, and if I an angry about them --
well, we are all created by our past.
If, however, I were to personally blame every American Irishman I meet
on the street for what I went through, I would be bluntly in the wrong.
I am very angry about what happened to me and my family. I will admit
openly that it prevents me from enjoying Celtic-flavored things, which
may be one of the reasons I'm a Solitary. And I will not pin it on Dan
Raney or Marilyn Flynn -- two friends of mine and incredibly sweet
people. (Dan is also a very good Catholic boy -- went to mass every
day. However, and as my SO says, he doesn't let it interfere with
having a good time. I've worn my pentacle around him, and he's asked
what it's for, and I told him, and he just nodded and continued
talking.) I can be pissed about what "the Irish" back home did and not
hate every single one of them. Maybe this seems strange to you people;
it's not to me. I hate the old ethnic hatred that brought those things
on me and mine; I hate those who did it, and no one else. I am angry.
I will not judge people I meet because of it. If I meet what is called
a professional Irishman back home, I do prepare myself for anti-dago
propaganda; I've had far too much experience not to. However, if the
propaganda does not materialize, so much the better.
If I meet a frat boy, I prepare myself for misogynist shit. If I does
not materialize, great.
If a gay/les person meets a het, they must do the same thing. If the
homophobia doesmn't materialize, fine.
But that doesn't mean that the anger isn't still there, and that doesn't
mean that it isn't valid. And that doesn't make the anger wrong.
> "...And here, Queen Aphrodite, pour heavenly nectar into gold
> cups, and fill them gracefully with sudden joy." -- Sappho >>
Where did you get this? I thought Sappho's stuff was gone.
Blessings,
Janis
Edward Van Cura
> Cut off forever was a graceful and splendid civilization.
> Cut off forever was my Lithuanian heritage, and all that
> survives to today is vestiges of an ancient religion, couched
> in a few folk traditions that my grandparents passed on.
> Monoculturalism is, IMNSHO, just poison. Destroying anything
> which is different than ourselves is BAD EVOLUTIONAL PLANNING.
>
> Philosophies included.
Does anyone know of a serious, scholarly attempt to revive
the folk religion of the Baltic peoples?
In Troth,
Thorfinn
Robert Mathiesen
group is called ROMULVA, I think; there was a paragraph on it in a Circle
Newsletter a few issues ago. I don't know how scholarly it is.
Robert
Ciaran Benson
> The prefix "Free" was added in the middle ages when Bubba ben
> Gazoomie (not actually related to Joseph ben Gazoomie, as he had changed
Murray, you Fool !! That secret wasn't to be revealed until
the thirty-seventh revolution of the *censured*, in the time of
the fourty-second house of *censured* !!
Now EVERYONE will want to join !!
Glad you're feeling more perky. Ciaran.
$uslinit; include oblig.sig <<
Murray Altheim
>In article <1992Sep1.1...@csus.edu>, alth...@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray
>Altheim) writes:
>> The prefix "Free" was added in the middle ages when Bubba ben
>> Gazoomie (not actually related to Joseph ben Gazoomie, as he had changed
>> his name) started a blood and carrot cult ...
>
> Murray, you Fool !! That secret wasn't to be revealed until
>the thirty-seventh revolution of the *censured*, in the time of
>the fourty-second house of *censured* !!
>
> Now EVERYONE will want to join !!
>
> Glad you're feeling more perky. Ciaran.
Ciaran, as a member of the Order of the Sacred Flying Hoods, you of all people
should know that th# aaaaaaahhhhhh (sounds of Freemasonic hands on throat)
Number 9. Number 9. Number 9.
Edward Van Cura
>If there's any Knights of the Teutonic Order out there, be
>warned, your kind and my kind have a blood feud.
If you are referring to the original group that brought the
*Good Book* to the "godless heathens", to the group that maimed, raped,
and killed several peoples East of present-day Germany, and
devastated their cultures and folk religions, then I'm on your side.
Please do not fall into the trap of Guilt by Association (tm), though.
Where did the Teutons get their name?
From H.R. Ellis Davidson's book, *Myths and Symbols in Pagan Europe*:
<<<pp.5-6>>>
The Germans first came into prominence in Europe in the first century AD,
although the term "Germani" was in use about a hundred years earlier
and appears originally to have been a Celtic tribal name. Tacitus in
*Germania* claimed that it was the name of one tribe which gradually
came into general use, and it was generally held to be linked with the
Latin "germanus" (brother). Because of the ambiguity of this term
`Germanic', many English scholars have preferred to use `Teutonic' for
this group of peoples. The adjective "Teutonicus" was a latinised form
of OE "Theodisc" from "Theod" (people/nation), a term applied by the
Goths to themselves and their language; the earlier form *teuta may
originally have had the meaning `power' or `strength'. What the Romans
knew as Germania was the area between the Rhine and the Danube,
extending possibly as far as the Vistula, and including in the north
Denmark and the southern parts of Norway and Sweden. As was the case
with the Celts, people living in this wide and sparsely populated area
were unlikely to have thought of themselves as Germans; it was the
collective name used by the Romans for the barbarians beyond the
Rhine. Julius Caesar came into contact with these tribes, and the
Romans paid heavily for their attempts to bring them under control. He
wrote his brilliant account of his campaigns in Gaul in the mid first
century, equating the Germans with the peoples to the east of the
Rhine, while the Celts were to the west of it. This seems to have been
an oversimplification of a complex situation, perhaps due to his
ignorance of the languages spoken by many of the tribes, or to a
desire to justify his military advances for political reasons.
Certainly some of the tribes which he called German are now thought to
have been Celtic-speaking peoples. It seems that there was no
fundamental difference between the two except that of language, and as
Powell pointed out, the many resemblances between them in religious
practices, social organisation and vocabulary may have been derived
from a common ancestral source. But in spite of this, and the fact
that they were in contact with each other for considerable periods,
the difference in language must reflect a distinct separation between
the two sets of people.
<<<end quote>>>
Be Sprinkled With Blood,
Thorfinn
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
If felons commit felony,
then god is an iron.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Ciaran Benson
Please forgive me for not writing you for so long. Things
have been, well, busy.
In article <2AA3DD0...@orion.oac.uci.edu>, cor...@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis
Maria Cortese) writes:
>
> > "...And here, Queen Aphrodite, pour heavenly nectar into gold
> > cups, and fill them gracefully with sudden joy." -- Sappho >>
>
> Where did you get this? I thought Sappho's stuff was gone.
>
> Blessings,
> Janis
Well, yes, it mostly is.
After becoming discontent with several sources, most of
them proportedly "Pagan" writers (but apparently with their
own agendas), I've finally settled with the translations of
Willis Barnstone as set forth in "Sappho and the Greek Lyric
Poets", by Schocken Books, New York (ISBN 0-8052-0831-3).
The book contains various accounts of Sappho's life, and
the tragic loss of the great bulk of her writings.
Barnstone says; "Of the more than five hundred poems by
Sappho, we have today about seven hundred intelligible lines,
and these come from no single collected copy but are pieced
together from many sources: from the scholia of ancient
gammarians to the mummy wrappings in Egyptian tombs. Plato's
entire work has survived virtually intact, having been both
popular with and approved by Pagan and Christian alike.
Sappho's works did not lack popularity, but as one who,
in Ovid's words, "taught how to love girls" (/Lesbia quid
docuit Sappho nisi amare puellas?/), her popularity did
not always win approval.
"To the Church mind Sappho represented the culmination of
moral laxity, and her work was treated with zealous
disapproval. About A.D. 380 Saint Gregory of Nazianzos,
Bishop of Constantinople, ordered the burning of Sappho's
writings wherever found. She had already been violently
attacked as early as A.D. 180 by the Assyrian ascetic Tatian:
"Sappho was a whorish woman, love-crazy, who sang about her
own licentiousness" (/[passage in Greek not reproducible without
resorting to MacDemigodStatus, and I've already done that
once today]/ -- Orat. ad Graec., 53.).
"Then in 391 a mob of Christian zealots partially destroyed
Ptolemy Soter's Classical library in Alexandria. The often
repeated story of the final destruction of this famous
library by the Arab general Amr and Caliph Omar is now
rejected by historians. Again we hear that in 1073 Sappho's
writings were publicly burned in Rome and Constantinople by
order of Pope Gregory VII. Until late in the eleventh century,
however, quotations from Sappho still appeared in the works
of grammarians, suggesting that copies of her poems were
still preserved. We shall never know how many poems by
Sappho were destroyed in April 1204 during the terrible
pillage of Constantinople by the Venetian Knights of the
Fourth Crusade, or by the Ottoman Turks at the fall of
Byzantium in 1453."
Barnstone goes on to discuss the discovery of scraps of
Sappho's writings preserved as mummy wrappings in the Egyptian
desert, and particularly through the critical writings of
grammarians like Dionysios in his work, "On Literary
Composition".
Basically, I guess what remains are the scraps and fragments
which critical writers used to highlight her prose, and
to serve as illustrations of the Sapphic style.
Unfortunately, even those scraps are often unhelpful in
that the mummy wrappers often tore vertical strips from the
Sapphic papyrus, reducing her work to columns of words.
Barnstone dives fairly face-first into Sappho's possible
role as priestess of a thiasos, the various arguments for
and against her character, and the apparently on-going
argument of whether or not she was, indeed, a Lesbian in
a sexual, not just geographical, sense.
Oh, I could go on all day, but let me just give you the
translation Barnstone provides from which I stole my .sig;
"Leave Krete and come to this holy temple,
where the graceful grove of apple trees
circles and altar smokeing with frankinscense.
"Here roses leave shadow on the ground
and cold springs babble through apple branches
where shuddering leaves pour down profound sleep.
"In our meadow where horses graze
and while flowers of spring blossom,
anise shoots fill the air with aroma.
"And here, Queen Aphrodite, pour
heavenly nectar into gold cups
and fill the gracefully with sudden joy."
There are other translators who report having found fragments
which speak of rituals in the most glorious and graceful
of terms, flowing like the words of the Hymm to Demeter and
the deep-belted Persephone. I'd have to check the dates to
make sure, but perhaps that was what Sappho was aluding to
when she wrote;
"Like a sweat apple reddening on the high
tip of the topmost branch and forgotten
by the pickers -- no, beyond their reach.
"Like a hyacinth crushed in the mountains
by shepherds; lying trampled on the earth
yet blooming purple."
Her work is so moving, so immediate, it's something which
I long for in my own writing and hope to glimpse, but it's
a real journey.
Your writing, Janis, in your "The Silent Eye", sings so
well without laying out an entire script for everyone to
tread through; instead you give just the surface and allow
us to sink as we want; "...the Moon rose with its silvery
eye and ... saw this as well as what we now present to Her..."
Yes, absolutely. There is no gift I can give the Mother
but that which She has given me. No skill I may please
Her with, or song I can sing which She has not crafted
first and placed in my hands. What is there, then, but
to bask in Her sight, to stand revealed before Her and know
that all these things are Her's for Me.
Despite the attempts to purge Sappho from our past, she
has survived, and in the few scraps which have been pasted
together of her incredible work, we can glimpse a passion
which, like amber, draws the memories of things past to us
and gives us a vision of our place, our future, our path.
Despite the zealots and the reconstructionists and the
fundies, as Sappho herself said;
"Someone, I tell you,
will remember us."
Blessed be, Ciaran.
$uslinit; include oblig.sig <<
mike.siemon
(Ciaran Benson) writes:
> After becoming discontent with several sources, most of
> them proportedly "Pagan" writers (but apparently with their
> own agendas), I've finally settled with the translations of
> Willis Barnstone as set forth in "Sappho and the Greek Lyric
> Poets", by Schocken Books, New York (ISBN 0-8052-0831-3).
This is indeed a recommendable offering of the extant verse;
it contains the Greek as well as acceptable translations.
However, there is a thrust to this discussion which needs some
correction:
> popular with and approved by Pagan and Christian alike.
> Sappho's works did not lack popularity, but as one who,
> in Ovid's words, "taught how to love girls" (/Lesbia quid
> docuit Sappho nisi amare puellas?/), her popularity did
> not always win approval.
This suggests, quite incorrectly, that Sappho was NOT popular
with (some) Christians.
> "To the Church mind Sappho represented the culmination of
> moral laxity, and her work was treated with zealous
> disapproval. About A.D. 380 Saint Gregory of Nazianzos,
Nazianzus was both something of a prude, and a deep devotee of
Classical culture who sometimes seems to have spoken from a very
tightly closed closet. I won't apologize for his idiocies, any
more than the idiocies of "gay" homophobes. However, Barnstone
is simply incorrect that "the Church" ever had any kind of opinion
about Sappho.
> She had already been violently
> attacked as early as A.D. 180 by the Assyrian ascetic Tatian:
Tatian was universally condemned (excpet in the Syrian Church,
which loved him :-)) as a heretic.
> "Then in 391 a mob of Christian zealots partially destroyed
> Ptolemy Soter's Classical library in Alexandria. The often
This is the usual peroration about Christian hatred of Sappho.
But Sappho was known AND QUOTED (some of our extant verses are
derived from these quotations) by Christians centuries AFTER
Alexandria and Egypt had fallen to the Muslims.
The *basic* problem is that later Byzantine taste was philosophic
rather than poetic, and the little poetry that was admired and
quoted from circa 1200 on was highly elaborate and contrived (it
is worth pointing out in this context that the intensely homo-
erotic *male* verse of Hellenistic poets WAS preserved by these
supposedly puritanical Christians. The Palatine Anthology is THE
place to look for celebrations of gay sensuality/sexuality. This
was transmitted to us by Byzantine Christians, at exactly the
same age in which Sappho was lost -- she was too "simple" and
the taste of the day was for something like a higher order Oscar
Wilde.
WE love Sappho, and can only tolerate small doses of Kallimachos
and other, less memorable, versifiers. It must be noted that in
the first millenium of Christian life, OUR opinion has held at
various times -- and at other times has been rejected. It is
rather unfortunate that the destruction of Constantinople by
Italians and their allies happened at a stage when Sappho was
NOT sufficiently in fashion to have survived, as far more trivial
homoerotic work *did* survive.
--
Michael L. Siemon "I know of nothing -- I suspect
not even death -- that is so fixed
m...@usl.com in the present tense as love."
standard disclaimer -- Jess Anderson
Elton Wildermuth
>
>The fact that the Masons have an "Order of deMolay" would seem to imply that
>they at least like to pretend that they have some connection to the Templars.
They also (at least the AF&AM, the only lodge I'm completely familiar with)
like to pretend a connection with King Solomon. Wanting a thing don't
necessarily make it so.
I did a clandestine history of the world some few years ago in which I
"proved" that the Benedictine Abbey was actually a lodge of the Templars,
and the Templars and the Hospitallers (Knights of Malta) were actually the
same group. All the events in my timeline really happened; but most of
the conclusions I drew from it were spurious. Given enough inventiveness,
you can prove nearly anything you want from the information available.
-- Elton
+++
"He must be guilty of something, or he wouldn't be a suspect."
-- Attorney General Edwin Meese
Paul Ciszek
>and the Templars and the Hospitallers (Knights of Malta) were actually the
>same group. All the events in my timeline really happened; but most of
Heck, any fan of Bogart films knows THAT.
While we are talking about Freemasons, The Loyal Order of the Water Buffalo,
and so forth...
Just what the heck is the International Order of Odd Fellows?
I see chapters of this all over, but more often in places like Ithaca, NY
and Boulder, CO it seems.
Tammy Stark Blandino
> It does make me want to sit down with my Grandmother and talk
>with her ALOT about what happened when she was smuggled out of
>Lithuania, and what she remembers about life there.
>
> All she's told me about it is the trouble they had with the
>church trying to get out, and a few tidbits about magic.
>
I'd advise this to everyone I meet. As genealogist I've learned
that everyone has a valuable story, especially the elders.
Problem is that once their gone the story is gone, kaput.
Talk to your elders *TODAY*. Write down their stories, tales,
remembrances etcetera. I can't tell you what it is like to
read remembrances of my ancestors taken strait from their
mouth.
I have this distant grandfather who was one of 27 survivors
of Goliad. (For those not Texans out there that was a battle
during the Texas Revolution back in 1835 were over 300 Texans
were executed.) Someone took the time to get his story of his
escape. The thrill that went through me when reading that was
better than any drug anybody has ever come up with.
Elders have a lot to teach us too. We pagans should know how
fragile the verbal tale is. Also with our fast pace generation
how many people listen and repeat to others who will listen?
Please don't let your grandmother take those stories to her
grave!!!!
Tammy
Ciaran Benson
> Ciaran Benson writes:
> >> Murray Altheim writes:
> >> The prefix "Free" was added in the middle ages when Bubba ben
> >> Gazoomie (not actually related to Joseph ben Gazoomie, as he had changed
> >> his name) started a blood and carrot cult ...
> >
> > Murray, you Fool !! That secret wasn't to be revealed until
> >the thirty-seventh revolution of the *censured*, in the time of
> >the fourty-second house of *censured* !!
> >
> > Now EVERYONE will want to join !!
>
people
> should know that th# aaaaaaahhhhhh (sounds of Freemasonic hands on throat)
>
> Number 9. Number 9. Number 9.
Oh, Murray.
I certainly hope that no one is thinking of flaming you for
that, and that no one's flamed you over eMail, but it seems you
must not have received the third mailing last month (your
dues are paid up, aren't they?)
In the Bytumberate section, after the very interesting
editorial on the, ahem, *problems* with the east coast temple,
there was about three columns on this, and I think they were
very clear.
Of course, I may have misunderstood.
Being a HighThingy of the Sacred Flying Hoods, we have our
own priorities, of course, and I may have misinterpreted.
Still, do you think it's wise?
I mean, change and all that ...
Many Blessings (5=8+74 ... yes, folks -- 74 !!! Bwahahaha) Ciaran.
Leigh Ann Hussey
>point them to "Alexander Nevosky", a black-and-white subtitled
>Russian movie about an attempted invasion of Rus by the German
>Templars. The scenes of the Templars descending on the Rus
NOT. The Teutonic Knights were their own order, not related to the
Knights Templar.
> Maybe the reason I spit so profusely on the Templars is that
>the only reason the church survived there in the first place
>was that they burnt to the ground any city, town, or village that
>got in its way, often including its inhabitants.
....
>I consider them one of the last vestiges of the Inquisition
Dear, gentle Ciaran, have you been following this thread very closely?
Here, breathe deeply (I'm serious, dammit!), calm yourself. Now, listen
to this:
THE TEMPLARS WERE THEMSELVES PERSECUTED BY THE CHURCH.
They were a large, savvy business organization. They had a lot of
money, and more influence than King Louis IV of France thought they ought
have. They got their money by sharp trading -- well, and by a certain
amount of looting the Saracens, which gave them their initial capital...
Nothing to do with burning Lithuanian villages. Never got out that way.
The destruction of their order was as carefully planned a campaign
as the suppression of the Gnostics and the take-over of Languedoc (in
the south of France, home of the Trouveres, whose poetry often reflects
a worship of the feminine as divine). And for the same reasons -- the
stated purpose, to stamp out heresy and dissident doctrine was only a
cover for the King's real purpose: to consolidate money and power (and
in the case of Languedoc, some prime land as well). Louis had to
exercise a great deal of influence over the Pope at the time (Innocent
the I-don't-remember-which'th) to get the machinery in motion, which in
turn trumped up a bunch of charges against the Templars -- rather in the
same way your-friend-and-mine (NOT) Torquemada did business.
Now, some of the allegations may have been true -- that the Templars had
some, um, *interesting* ways of worship. Certainly a good deal of
modern Wiccan practise is based on "testimony" from the Inquisition,
and corroborated by continuing folk practise (implying that not all the
accounts were dreamed up by the Inquisitors and merely "confirmed" by
the victims under duress). If that is true, do the Templars not deserve
the same sympathy we give to all the other victims of the Inquisition?
The fire burned just as hot for Jacques deMolay as it did for the rest of
the Church's victims. If the history is true, deMolay was a pretty
heavy magician as well: from the stake, he cursed both Louis IV and Pope
Innocent, that they would meet him in hell within a year, and in fact
both died within twelve months of his immolation.
See? No flames for you. Only a request that you look a little more
closely at history, and instead of seeing a homogenous host of vicious
warrior Christians, looting and burning like any (you should excuse)
barbarian Pagans, see the separate orders, each with their own
character, their own agendas, their own troubles. They're a lot like us
in that respect.
B*B
- Leigh Ann
Leigh Ann Hussey leig...@sybase.com
CoG #151E
"Take no scorn to wear the Horn; it was the Crest when you were born!"
Corun MacAnndra
>
>People say the same thing about Paganism and witchcraft, and they are
>right. They basic ideas go back to paleolithic culture.
>
>But, they sure ain't the same!
Ain't that the truth. ;-) But I'd always heard that it was Alexander who
founded the basic Masonic order.
>>I will admit to not having studied Masonry, but this is what I've
>>heard. I will await further additions to this thread eagerly. The Masons
>>have always intrigued me.
>
>I'm kind of interested, too. I've evidently not given them enough
>mental air time; they always seemed a little like Fred Flintstone's
>Loyal Order of Water Buffalos. Seems I'm due for a reality check, huh?
>(I've also heard things about how they are closely related to the
>Mormons.)
Mormons related to Masons? Now that scares the hell out of me. I've known
many Mormons, and while on the surface they're very nice, there's a very
spooky quality underneath. Especially those who are most active in the
church. To be fair I haven't known (that I'm aware of) any Masons, and so
I can't say if the same quality is there. I've always seen Masons as rather
benign and benificent. Take the Children's Hospitle for example. They don't
seem to segregate except where it directly concerns their rites. This is
true of many religions where the actual rites are concerned. I went to a
Greek Orthodox wedding once and the priest disappeared into a little room
behind the alter for awhile. Noone else is allowed in. But the Mormons,
they segregate everyone not a Mormon every day. They even segregate their
own if they feel that one is not performing to the church's standards.
First they have a mandatory ten percent tithe of your salary. They don't
take it, but expect you to do that. They also will use this to get their
people into higher paying jobs so the tithe is bigger. The bigger the tithe,
the better you are in the eyes of the church. And what they do to women is
as criminal as rape. At least rape can be fought legally. I heard an instance
where a bishop of the church got on TV in Salt Lake City once and denounced
women who work, saying they should be home rasing their husband's children
and generally making the home better for the husband. The next Monday saw
a tremendous exodus of women from the workplace in SLC. Just because the
bishop said it was God's word. They also tell women that everyone has a
secret scared name that they will have in heaven. The men know theirs when
they die, but the women don't. The men they were married to in life supposedly
know them and the women have to seek them out in heaven in order to live
with them again and stay in heaven.
Here's another scary thing to think about. Morton Thiokol, the makers of
the O-rings that failed on the Challenger, is in Utah. At the time of the
Challenger disaster, there were two factions of old school Mormons feuding
in the plant. Each had it's own prophet (these supposedly are spoken to by
God directly). One prophet was supposed to be getting more work out of his
team by promising them more wives (yes, polygamy is alive and well in Utah).
Also, Morton Thiokol had initiated an incentive program that made it better
for your particular team to come out ahead by making the others come out
behind. There were instances of O-rings being overbaked and some even found
with slices in them. I don't have the documentation on this, so don't ask
for it. Believe it or not, as you will. I cannot trust a Mormon.
Forewarned is a Hindu god.
Ian Fraser
- They were a large, savvy business organization. They had a lot of
- money, and more influence than King Louis IV of France thought they ought
Actually, I think that was Phillip the Fair, not Loius...
- If the history is true, deMolay was a pretty
- svy magician as well: from the stake, he cursed both Louis IV and Pope
- Innocent, that they would meet him in hell within a year, and in fact
- both died within twelve months of his immolation.
As I recall the legend, DeMolay called both to "judgment before the throne of
God", one within the month, and one within the year. Both died as fortold.
' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '
Bright Blessings to you and yours!
Hawk
Circle of Ashtoreth,
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
Ciaran Benson
writes:
> See? No flames for you. Only a request that you look a little more
> closely at history, and instead of seeing a homogenous host of vicious
> warrior Christians, looting and burning like any (you should excuse)
> barbarian Pagans, see the separate orders, each with their own
> character, their own agendas, their own troubles. They're a lot like us
> in that respect.
Leigh Ann;
I see that my posts are, apparently, not getting out. I sent
out quite a few posts last week which didn't seem to get very
far, and weren't echoed back here and whatnot ...
So, yes, as so many have pointed out, I was screaming about
the wrong group. I meant to scream about the Teutonics, not
the Templars.
My appologies to anyone who was offended.
It was not my intent to quote history, but to flame about
a little personal damage to my own family and my family's
traditions.
>sigh<
BTW, did my post about Sappho get out, or was it dev/null'ed
too?
A somewhat much more tired Ciaran, still hunting for that
elusive writer's voice ...
Ciaran Benson
writes:
> See? No flames for you. Only a request that you look a little more
> closely at history, and instead of seeing a homogenous host of vicious
> warrior Christians, looting and burning like any (you should excuse)
> barbarian Pagans, see the separate orders, each with their own
> character, their own agendas, their own troubles. They're a lot like us
> in that respect.
Dear Leigh Ann;
I didn't mean for my last unfortunately terse post to imply
that I disagree with you. You're right. I probably would
benefit from some dedicated time in the history books.
Thing is, I do see all of the crusaders as one
great big congolmeration of crusaders. Whether
they were sent out to kill by a pope or an archbishop and
regardless of whether they were killing Lithuanians or Muslims
or Jews or American Indians. Without pausing to understand
their motivation, or the particular trama of those they ground
underfoot, I stand in solidarity with those whose families
have been cut off from their heritage by crusaders. Any
crusaders.
If my overly-wide brush sometimes washes over innocents,
then I'm deeply saddened, because it places me in the equally
resentful role of crusader -- crusading against crusaders and
wiping out any that happen to be standing too close or have
orders which are spelled similarly to those I ignorantly and
vehemently despise.
You are, without arguement, right. This kind of hatred and
undirected anger can only be a sickness that I'd do better to
root out and destroy in myself before it destroys me.
All this talk about the Templars inadvertantly picked open
a really big scab in my soul, though, and in the process I
didn't pause long enough to realize that I was playing the
wrong tapes, too loudly, and at the wrong people.
But sitting down and actually studying the history of people
who have worked, or who are similar to those who have worked,
to wipe out my family and "my people" is still beyond me.
I would rather devote the time to exploring my own heretage,
and discovering what little insights I might into the people
who suffered in these crusades, rather than study the crusaders
themselves.
It may be so that this leaves me ignorant and spiteful, and
those of you who have written suggesting that I broaden my
horizons are right, but when attempting to study the history
of oppressed people it is difficult to keep a pleasant thought
for the with the oppressors, and I sometimes end up myoptically
attacking people and groups who only bear surface similarities
to the true aggressors.
And as I said, I become an aggressor myself.
"... this economic redistribution is a lot tricker than I
thought ..." Dennis Moore (aka Monty Python).
Ciaran, feeling awefully small and wishing that I hadn't thrown
in my thirty-seven dollar's worth, but glad I did because I
got it off my chest, but worried now that I've exposed myself
for the bitter little snipe that I am in my heart of hearts
and really, really hoping that Murray sends me a letter soon
because I've lost his address.
Paul Michael Wayner
(Ciaran Benson) writes:
|> It may be so that this leaves me ignorant and spiteful, and
|> those of you who have written suggesting that I broaden my
|> horizons are right, but when attempting to study the history
|> of oppressed people it is difficult to keep a pleasant thought
|> for the with the oppressors, and I sometimes end up myoptically
|> attacking people and groups who only bear surface similarities
|> to the true aggressors.
Hi, I missed the beginning of this thread, and I'm curious about
the "oppressed people" you were studying and how they tie into
crusaders.
Paul Wayner
Elton Wildermuth
> THE TEMPLARS WERE THEMSELVES PERSECUTED BY THE CHURCH.
>They were a large, savvy business organization. They had a lot of
>money, and more influence than King Louis IV of France thought they ought
>The destruction of their order was as carefully planned a campaign
>as the suppression of the Gnostics and the take-over of Languedoc
This is subject to some possible misinterpretation. Clement (Il Papa at the
time -- 1310 or thereabouts) really couldn't care less about the Templars,
except for Louis IV's arm-twisting on the subject. I don't know what bribery,
blackmail, or behind-the-scenes blowjobs caused Clement to issue his papal
bulls of 1307, and even after that it took a lot of legwork on Philip's part.
The first time, the pope told him to go screw himself -- in 1312, Clement was
forced to admit that there wasn't enough evidence to prove the charges. (Of
course, this didn't help the Templars, arrested throughout Europe, and 54 of
whom burned in 1310 at Philip's direction.)
I don't know that you could call this being "persecuted by the Church", any
more than you can call the current Republican Fundamentalism a Church
persecution. It was more a case of a government using the Church's name to
advance its own causes. We wouldn't know a thing about that, would we?
Additionally, Philip's primary purpose in the entire sordid affair was a lot
more personal than just thinking that the Templars had too much money: Philip
IV of France *personally* owed the Templars a *whole*lot* of money, since they
had been his bankers for more than one failed military campaign. Having them
declared anathema seemed like an easy, convenient way to avoid paying a bunch
of money that he didn't have ... sort of like turning informer to the Fed in
order to get out from under a deal with La Cosa Nostra.
I also don't think it's fair to call the Templars victims of the Inquisition.
They were a victim of a government that knew how to use the Inquisition for
its own ends. (See above.)
However, the charges brought against the Templars were a perfect picture of
the Inquisition's favorite subjects: heresy, Devil worship, and homosexuality
(that is, the ones with the biggest scare value, and the hardest to disprove;
again, we wouldn't know a thing about that, now, would we?).
For the record, the specific charges were:
- the knights put their order before every other principle, swearing to
enrich it by any means;
- at initiation, a neophyte was required to spit on the cross and renounce
christ;
- indecent kisses and unnatural sex were commonly practiced and encouraged;
- they worshipped Baphomet;
- the cord they wore over their shirts was hallowed by being wrapped about
the statue of Baphomet;
- the statue was anointed with ointment made from murdered babies;
- the statue was (take your pick) a stuffed human head, or a head with
3 faces, or a skull;
- they betrayed the Crusades;
- they did not consecrate the host during Mass;
- they worshipped the Devil in the form of a black cat.
And not only that, they talked back to their elders and refused to eat
their broccoli. So there! pththththt!
>The fire burned just as hot for Jacques deMolay as it did for the rest of
>the Church's victims. If the history is true, deMolay was a pretty
>heavy magician as well: from the stake, he cursed both Louis IV and Pope
>Innocent, [...]
Clement. I misinformed you when we talked about it earlier. So sorry -- I
can't tell one inaptly named Pope from another without a scorecard. And,
let's not call de Molay a victim of the Church, but a political execution by
a medieval Jesse Helms. (Or maybe Georgie is a better analogy?)
-- Elton
+++
There are two kinds of people in the world: good ones and bad ones.
The good ones get to choose which is which.
(Readers' Digest, from 'way back when; author unknown to me.)
Ciaran Benson
Hi Paul;
It's an old, hopefully soon-to-die thread where some folks
were talking about the Templars and I ran off on a hideous
piss-fit about the Teutonic, the subjection of the Baltics,
the loss of family traditions (part of my family's from
Lithuania), and, in general, acted like a real butt.
All the while getting my groups confused (Templar? Teutonic?
They both start with "T" and have swords, so I got mixed up).
Some folks rightly suggested I should study history.
I was pointing out that, as far as studying the modivation
of the Teutonic Knights is concerned, I'd rather spend my life
studying the remnants of Lithuanian, Mongolian, and AmerIndian
history than studying the Teutonics, the Romans, or the American
Cavalry (and, more recently, the FBI for that matter).
Would you rather spend 5 hours studying the colapse of
rome, or the valient Attila? If your family traces back
to Rome, I'd suppose you'd be studying the Roman crusaders
and the vanquished Romans who were so terribly oppressed by
the Vandels. For myself, I'd rather study the crusaders from
Mongol.
That's an interesting thought -- I suppose you could say that
we've each got crusaders in the closet, huh? :)
All Hail Attila, the White Stag, who led our people to the
promised land!
Maybe that's why I've got a sword fettish. Ciaran.
Leigh Ann Hussey
Were I thee, however, I'd send the Sappho article again, just to be
certain. Not to worry, I wasn't offended. Take care of yourself.
B*B
- Leigh Ann
----------------
Elton Wildermuth
> Leigh Ann;
> I see that my posts are, apparently, not getting out. I sent
>out quite a few posts last week which didn't seem to get very
>far, and weren't echoed back here and whatnot ...
Just so everyone knows: Sybase gets its news feed as a cooperative
effort from an upstream source that is, shall we say, not the best.
We are not being censored; the server is overburdened. Articles are
typically 2 days to 2 weeks late when they arrive here, and many
articles don't get through to us at all.
When someone from this site launches into a discussion that concluded
days ago, it's because we are only just seeing it for the first time
today. Further, often enough, we are missing some context.
Yeah, we could spend the, what, 40-50 bucks a month to get a high
quality feed that downloads literally everything, but that would
almost seem like cheating.
-- Elton
Michael Chaplin
>I'm kind of interested, too. I've evidently not given them enough
>mental air time; they always seemed a little like Fred Flintstone's
>Loyal Order of Water Buffalos. Seems I'm due for a reality check, huh?
>(I've also heard things about how they are closely related to the
>Mormons.)
Mormons related to Masons? Now that scares the hell out of me. I've known
many Mormons, and while on the surface they're very nice, there's a very
spooky quality underneath. Especially those who are most active in the
church. To be fair I haven't known (that I'm aware of) any Masons, and so
I can't say if the same quality is there. I've always seen Masons as rather
benign and benificent. Take the Children's Hospitle for example. They don't
seem to segregate except where it directly concerns their rites. This is
true of many religions where the actual rites are concerned. I went to a
Greek Orthodox wedding once and the priest disappeared into a little room
behind the alter for awhile. Noone else is allowed in. But the Mormons,
they segregate everyone not a Mormon every day. They even segregate their
own if they feel that one is not performing to the church's standards.
Just recently I posted to alt.conspiracy about the connection between
the Church of JC and the Latter Day Saints (Mormons) and Freemasonry.
I assume, of course, that not everybody reads it (we all have our
favorites) and so I'll try to reconstruct what I said.
The connection is only the marked influence of Freemasonic ritual
upon certain rituals of the Mormon church. The influence occured
when the Mormons, in their trek west from upstate New York settled
in Nauvoo, which was, if I'm not mistaken, in southern Illinois.
While there, many of the church elders were made Masons at the
behest of Joseph Smith, the church founder. Smith himself had been
made a Mason at Nauvoo. The Mormon Masonic Lodges were later declared
"clandestine", which, in Masonic parlance is equivalent to
"unrecognized"- certainly not as strong as "excommunicated".
The reasons given had to do with an inordinate amount of altering
of the rite and ritual. (Masonic ritual will stand *some* variation-
just not as much as what was said to be done.) The Mormons were
later chased from Nauvoo for reasons only indirectly related, and
they then made their way to Utah. Thus, the Mormons preserved some
of the Freemasonic ritual. This, of course, does not make every
Mormon a Mason, or vice versa. Just those who join both can be
called both.
Most of this is from memory from an article in The Little Masonic
Encyclopedia on Masonry and Mormonism.
Not a Mormon, not a Mason, but I do have Hazel Eyes (tm).
'til later,
Chaplin.
--
===========================================================================
Michael Chaplin Language is a virus from outer space.
mic...@albert.bu.edu - William S. Burroughs
The Einstein Papers Project The opinions contained herein reflect
Boston University neither those of the project,
Boston, Massachusetts, U.S.A. nor those of Albert Einstein.
Robert Mathiesen
had practiced as a folk magician earlier in his career, like his father be-
fore him (Joseph Smith Sr). See D. Michael Quinn, _Early Mormonism and the
Magic World View_, Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1987. Quinn is (was?)
a Mormon teaching at Brigham Young Univ. when he published this, and it got
him fired (or maybe asked to resign), so he now lives elsewhere; I've heard
it also got him in very hot water with the Mormon Church as a whole, not
just his university. I've read it and it seems *very* good. -- Robert
Janis Maria Cortese
Baphomet thang. It's from Barbara Walker (I know), but I thought it was
a novel idea.
Pg. 53 of her book _The Secrets of the Tarot_:
But the Templars, living among Mohammedans, would certainly have known
how to pronounce Mohammed's name. An alternative theory derived
Baphomet from the Greek Baphe Metis, "Baptism of Metis," another name
for the Lady Wisdom -- the same Gnostic Goddess called Sophia in eastern
Europe, Sapientia in Rome, Shekina by Spanish-Jewish Cabalists, anbd
Fatima by Sufi and Shi'ite "poets of love."
If anyone else knows about this or has heard proof for or against . . .
Blessings,
Janis
cassie
Doing or Saying anything against the Mormons in Utah is pretty
dangerous. Imagine what the United States would be like, if
there wasn't a separation of Church and State clause in the
constitution. Although it is true that the Mormon Church
and the State of Utah are separate entities, the SAME people
run both. Mormonism is one of the few religion's were being
a priest isn't someone occupation. So all (or 99.9%) of the
goverment officials ARE priests and bishops in the mormon church.
--
Sherm Epperson Motorola Technical Systems Division
sh...@phx.mcd.mot.com 2900 S. Diablo Way
uunet!asuvax!mcdphx!sherm Tempe Az. 85282
(602) 438-3015 Mail Drop DW278
cassie
>In article <1992Sep1.2...@access.digex.com> co...@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra) writes:
>
> Mormons related to Masons? Now that scares the hell out of me. I've known
> many Mormons, and while on the surface they're very nice, there's a very
> spooky quality underneath. Especially those who are most active in the
I grew up on Salt Lake City, Utah. In fact by birth I am Mormon.
Now I rarely use those last three words together, cause I am not
by any stretch of the imagination mormon.
A big portion of the ``spooky quality underneath'' is the Big Brother
concept of the church. In Salt Lake the church is EVERYTHING.
And the church believes that they know best for EVERYONE.
Not surprising, her religion was Greek Orthodox.
> church. To be fair I haven't known (that I'm aware of) any Masons, and so
> I can't say if the same quality is there. I've always seen Masons as rather
> benign and benificent. Take the Children's Hospitle for example. They don't
> seem to segregate except where it directly concerns their rites. This is
> true of many religions where the actual rites are concerned. I went to a
> Greek Orthodox wedding once and the priest disappeared into a little room
My parent's, myself and several cousins were not even allowed in
the temple to watch ANY of my brother's wedding because we weren't
``members in good standing''.
> behind the alter for awhile. Noone else is allowed in. But the Mormons,
> they segregate everyone not a Mormon every day. They even segregate their
> own if they feel that one is not performing to the church's standards.
No kidding. My father, who was a police officer and my uncle
who was a fireman were both outcasts because the worked on Sunday.
Jessica M. Mcgeary
I am given to understand that the FBI and suchlike have a tendency to
RECRUIT mormons. Why? Because they are very strongly anti-communist-
at least, so I have heard in the past, when communism was a Very Big
Threat, as opposed to just a Big Threat. D'you suppose the one group is
getting lessons from the other?
--
Jessica McGeary
jm...@po.cwru.edu
Case Western Reserve University
Remember! Arguments should be FUN!
markbr
>
> I am given to understand that the FBI and suchlike have a tendency to
> RECRUIT mormons. Why? Because they are very strongly anti-communist-
> at least, so I have heard in the past, when communism was a Very Big
> Threat, as opposed to just a Big Threat. D'you suppose the one group is
> getting lessons from the other?
> --
> Jessica McGeary
Ah, they've been doing this a *long* time. As an occasional Wobbly, may
I point out what they did to Joe Hill, in 1915?
mark
Hulda Thunarsson
>
> So, yes, as so many have pointed out, I was screaming about
> the wrong group. I meant to scream about the Teutonics, not
> the Templars.
>
> My appologies to anyone who was offended.
>
> It was not my intent to quote history, but to flame about
> a little personal damage to my own family and my family's
> traditions.
>
Excuse me, what was said about the Teutons?
I must of missed that but am interested in hearing what was said.
I am Teutonic and at times I would love to scream from the roof tops
as to what was done to my ancestors. Ever read the Saga of King Olaf?
Have you checked out any history books that are factual, not just fantasy?
Yes, flames must be shooting out of my ears right now. Sorry about that.
I just feel it my duty to set records straight if possible.
Hulda
Al Billings
Hulda, if you'd actually been following the threads of the fucking
conversation, you would know they were talking about the Teutonic Knights,
who were bastards working to Christianize Europe.
Please keep your temper in reign until your mind catches up. You are
making a fool of yourself and our religion.
Wassail,
Grendel
mi...@u.washington.edu
/\ /\ +----------------------------------------+
/__\/__\ | "I know that I hung on the windy tree | |
/\ /\ /\ | all of nights nine, wounded by Gar, | |
/__\/__\/__\ | given to Odhinn, myself to myself, | |
/\ /\ | upon that tree of which none can tell | |
/__\/__\ | from what root it rises." | ______|______
+----------------------------------------+
Hulda Thunarsson
> Hulda, if you'd actually been following the threads of the fucking
> conversation, you would know they were talking about the Teutonic Knights,
> who were bastards working to Christianize Europe.
>
> Please keep your temper in reign until your mind catches up. You are
> making a fool of yourself and our religion.
>
> Wassail,
> Grendel
>
Well I must apolgise, I haven't been following the conversation.
Just recently we acquired a 'puter that would gain access to the bbs's.
And I admitt, my first postings leave alot to be desired. The opinions
expressed by me are purely my own. They were never intended to reflect the
opinions of Asatru or Eagles Reaches. And I regret the impact they seem to
have had on both. I feel that anything that might be posted either now or
in the future will be cast under that dark shadow already hanging over my
head, so therefore I am removing myself form this bbs.
Please disreguard any other postings I have made. As I feel anything attached
to my name would probably do more harm than good. I would at this time
agree with your expressions on Teutonic Knights but it would be for naught.
As would any comments as to what you have done concerning Asatru.
I go in peace,
Hulda
G. Wolfe Woodbury
>> Grendel
(was overly harsh on Hulda)
>
>Well I must apolgise, I haven't been following the conversation.
>Just recently we acquired a 'puter that would gain access to the bbs's.
>And I admitt, my first postings leave alot to be desired. The opinions
>expressed by me are purely my own. They were never intended to reflect the
>opinions of Asatru or Eagles Reaches. And I regret the impact they seem to
>have had on both.
Hulda, people overreact. Its a human trait. They get excited
by somthing that is said, and the excess energy has to be dissapated
somewhere, you just managed to be the sink for that energy this time
around.
The only reason your comments were interpreted as being
applicable to Asatru was that the way you wrote them seemed to imply
that *you* were considering *your* statements as being representative of
Asatru. I overreacted, and said some things that were definately
uncalled for, I should have aimed only at you, and not at your
religion.
I don't think anyone particularly applies your opinions to a
computer system or group of individuals.
> I feel that anything that might be posted either now or
>in the future will be cast under that dark shadow already hanging over my
>head, so therefore I am removing myself form this bbs.
You've been singed a little bit, and now you're going to slink
off into a corner and whine about getting taken to task for something
you said that was misinterpreted by the readers. Cute.
Apologizing, and remaining silent for a while are one thing. It
allows the situation to calm down, and for the participants to move
onward, I often walk away from tense situations, simply so that I won't
hit blindly in a rage.
But no, you're not going to be mature about it. Instead you
announce that you intend to pick up your ball and go home, or rather,
you're going to "go out in the yard and eat worms."
>Please disreguard any other postings I have made. As I feel anything attached
>to my name would probably do more harm than good. I would at this time
>agree with your expressions on Teutonic Knights but it would be for naught.
>As would any comments as to what you have done concerning Asatru.
>
> I go in peace,
> Hulda
In peace? To go in peace would be to simply walk away in silence.
Instead, you pick a childish ploy, intended to let everyone know just
how "wronged" you are.
Am I being harsh? You bet. This sort of thing happens all too often on
the net. Someone makes a silly remark, and someone "flames" them for
it. Instead of recognizing that the initial remark was silly (or
grossly misinterpreted - which is the case here), the prepetrator begins
whining about being held responsible for what they said.
I've been taken down for this tactic time and time again! It only took
me 5 years to recognize that it was unfair and inurbane.
If you want to go away and not risk getting challenged when you make
unsupportable assertions, fine, just don't try to place the blame on
"them" Nobody wins that way.
Wolfe
--
G. Wolfe Woodbury @ The Wolves Den UNIX, Durham NC [use the maps!]
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Domain: wolfe%wol...@cs.duke.edu wo...@cds.duke.edu
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