What *EXACTLY* is a "Virtuous Pagan?!"
Xina
I have to ask another difficult question here, and I suppose I will have
to put on my flame retardant undergarments because Im going to get
flamed (by one or two in particular I am certain).
If someone is "Virtuous" as a Pagan what does that mean exactly? I see
this term used as a sign off for some people, and yet their behavior
denotes anything but tolernace and 'Virtuous' (I always thought it meant
expemplary or honourable behaviour.
Wicca, Paganism et al (yes, Virginia, even Satanism) are considered
highly diverse paths or faiths. No one person, no one group has the
right to speak as the central spokesperson,nor to outline absolutes in
pracitces, bleiefs and proceedures that are centrally and explicity
"Pagan" or "WIccan" or "what have you.
Such assumptions smack of the same air of prejudice and sterotype
labeling that was prevalent (in some cases still is) of how a "black
person" or an "Indian" or a "woman" or a "homosexual" is *supposed to
act*
'Funny you don't *look*/*act* gay!'
'Gee, if you hadnt told me, I would never have guessed you were a
Pagan! You seem so well adjusted!'
'You cannot be a Satanist! You are a successful businessman!'
Add infinitum and certainly ad nauseum.
**CERTAIN** individuals can call myself and others "fools" or "twits"
for saying quite plainly, that personal belief systems are just that
*PERSONAL*, and nothing else, but it doesnt change the truth nor the
telling of it.
To quote the greatest Craft spokesperson I have ever known (yes I DO
know him personally and have worked with him as well)
"A Witch is only as good as his or her word"
" I must not mock the belief systems of others"
Would that it were that MORE people would adopt such behaviors and
understand what personal beleif structures are, not a transferrance of
social taboos and superstitions from the faiths that they more often
times than not refugees of, keeping thier own personal filters and
outright prejudices out of the equation.
Virtuousness means far more than taping it to our chests, our oh so
sanctimonious capes flapping in the breeze as we delude ourselves into
thinking that we and we alone are the only way that Pagan/Wiccan belief
can survive.
Getting over ourselves is INDEED what needs to be done; yet I wonder if
we can see past our own virtuous noses and do precisely that?
Em Hotep!
Xina
"As for the fool who will not listen, there is no one who can
do anything for him. He regards knowledge as ignorance and what
is beneficial as something harmful; he does everything hateful, so
that men are angry with him every day. He lives on that whereby
men die, and to distort speech is his food. His character in this
respect is in the knowledge of the wise ones, dying alive every
day; men pass over his deeds because of the multitude of troubles
on him every day....control your mouth; so will your counsel be
heard among the wise."
- From "The Maxims of Ptah-hotep,"
Zardoz
Xina wrote:
>
> I have to ask another difficult question here, and I suppose I will have
> to put on my flame retardant undergarments because Im going to get
> flamed (by one or two in particular I am certain).
>
> If someone is "Virtuous" as a Pagan what does that mean exactly? I see
> this term used as a sign off for some people, and yet their behavior
> denotes anything but tolernace and 'Virtuous' (I always thought it meant
> expemplary or honourable behaviour.
Hmmmmm???? I'm not sure "virtuous" applies to paganism. It seems to me
that it's a term from xian language, theology, morality and mythology.
Trying to apply that question to paganism is like asking "what Gods do
you believe in?" when the whole concept of "believe in" is not our
concept. I don't think it means anything "exactly."
Blessed Be
ZardoZ
The opinions expressed herein are mine alone and do not represent the
opinions or policy of any organization.
All material is the copyright property of the author and may not be
reproduced in any manner without specific permission.
Paul Hume
Zardoz -
> Hmmmmm???? I'm not sure "virtuous" applies to paganism. It seems to me
> that it's a term from xian language, theology, morality and mythology.
> Trying to apply that question to paganism is like asking "what Gods do
> you believe in?" when the whole concept of "believe in" is not our
> concept. I don't think it means anything "exactly."
Tyat would be news to the Romans, who gave us the word. Virtutis was
dervied from vir (man) and tus (strong), and referred to someone who
lived in accordance with the Roman codes of civic morality and displayed
due piety to the Gods.
The concept, of course, is universal. Keep your honor clean, live by the
codes you claim to follow, honor your Gods. If this concept has been
dropped in Paganism, it is a recent and local phenomenon.
Same remarks apply to your dismissal of the concept of "belief." Unless
you mean subsituting gnosis for belief, I am unclear on what you can
possibly mean by it.
Paul
William Hartwell
In article <32B302...@netins.net>, Xina <Xi...@netins.net> wrote:
>I have to ask another difficult question here, and I suppose I will have
>to put on my flame retardant undergarments because Im going to get
>flamed (by one or two in particular I am certain).
>
>If someone is "Virtuous" as a Pagan what does that mean exactly? I see
>this term used as a sign off for some people, and yet their behavior
>denotes anything but tolernace and 'Virtuous' (I always thought it meant
>expemplary or honourable behaviour.
>
Maybe it means they'd make good ingredients in mixtures? I know when *I*
see the word 'virtuous', it reminds me of things like Culpepper's, in
which 'virtuous' means that the herb in question has properties that make
it useful for a specific purpose.
It's a heck of a lot easier to deal with 'Virtuous Pagans' with that
image in mind, than to imagine them as being the Pagan equivalents of
Jerry Fallwell...
M Ma'at
Anpwhotep
--
Rev. Bill Hartwell whar...@nyx.net
Hm Ntrw, Wab Anpw, Anpwhotep http://www.nyx.net/~whartwel
By sending unsolicited commercially-oriented e-mail to this address, the
sender agrees to pay to the recipient a reading fee of $10/line.
hesp...@netcom.com
To me a virtuous person is one who's behavior is consistent with his/her
belief system. And IMHO it matters not if the person in question is
NeoPagan, Xian or whatever.
Bright Blessings,
Hesperos (Speaker of Ma'at ;-)
--
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
| "No hay mal que por bien no venga." -- Gloria Estefan |
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Xina
hesp...@netcom.com wrote:
>
> To me a virtuous person is one who's behavior is consistent with his/her
> belief system. And IMHO it matters not if the person in question is
> NeoPagan, Xian or whatever.
>
> Bright Blessings,
>
> Hesperos (Speaker of Ma'at ;-)
Hesperos:
I've NEVER known you to be "otherwise"!
Ankh udja seneb em Ma'at!
Xina
JSA
The word virtue comes, I think, from the Latin word for "man" (vir).
Here's Antoine de Saint-Exupery's definition of "man".
To be a man is, precisely, to be responsible. It is to rejoice in the
success of one's comrades. It is to feel shame at the sight of what seems
unwarranted suffering. It is the realization that, when setting one's
stone, one is contributing to the building of the world.
For me, that boils down to responsibility, community, empathy. These are
virtues that apply to Wiccans as well as to Christians.
Saint-Ex, btw, was more spiritual than religious.
B*B
Jorinx
===
Faith is one matter; the Church is an entirelt different matter.
Konrad Adenauer
William Edward Woody
nite...@btigate.com (JSA) wrote:
> The word virtue comes, I think, from the Latin word for "man" (vir).
> Here's Antoine de Saint-Exupery's definition of "man".
>
> To be a man is, precisely, to be responsible. It is to rejoice in the
> success of one's comrades. It is to feel shame at the sight of what seems
> unwarranted suffering. It is the realization that, when setting one's
> stone, one is contributing to the building of the world.
>
> For me, that boils down to responsibility, community, empathy. These are
> virtues that apply to Wiccans as well as to Christians.
My dictionary defines Virtuous as being Moral.
Which brings up an interesting question: how does one define "morality"
within a religious structure whose own moral code is based more or
less on situational ethics? Or how does one define "morality" within
Wicca, which is probably best described as a herd of cats?
For many, morals include such things as "empathy for others" or "being
happy at the success of their comrades"--these are not my own personal
morals. There are those who I don't want to feel empathy for: understanding,
yes; empathy, no. And to me 'comrades' is rather narrow: it allows us
to say "he's *too* successful: he's no longer my comrade."
For my money I try not to be virtuous in the eyes of others: it means
adhering to a moral code not my own. I just try to be polite, respectful
of others, and act appropriate when circumstance deems it necessary
while extracting myself from situations where I may be uncomfortable.
And above all I try to be mindful.
And by appropriate I don't mean any of the "big" things like taking
up arms against an attacker: thats a nice theory very few of us ever
have to face. What I mean by appropriate is not peeing on the neighbor's
rug, not showing up in dirty jeans when your sunday best is called for,
and not showing up with a naked woman in a leash and chains when going
to the local neighborhood church.
Not that there is anything inherently wrong with any of the above (except
perhaps the peeing part, unless water sports is your thing). Just that
they're not appropriate.
- Bill
Who *does* daydream of showing up at the local neighborhood church with
a naked woman in a leash and chains. I'm just not going to do it--it's
rude and inappropriate behaviour.
--
William Edward Woody * In Phase Consulting * wo...@alumni.caltech.edu
hesp...@netcom.com
Xina (xi...@netins.net) wrote:
: Hesperos:
Thank you Xina. May Sekmet smile Her toothy smile on you and yours.
#%^>
Bright Solstice Blessings,
Hesperos, H.N.P.
JSA
In article <woody-21129...@192.0.2.1>, wo...@alumni.caltech.edu
(William Edward Woody) wrote:
You bring up some very interesting points.
> My dictionary defines Virtuous as being Moral.
I took another peek at my Websters. It comes from the Latin word for "man"
(vir), and, directly translated into English mean "manliness" or
"strength".
Virtues, then, could be defined as qualities that distinguish men from
boys, moral strength. I suggest, that virtue indicates a ceratin degree of
maturity.
> Which brings up an interesting question: how does one define "morality"
> within a religious structure whose own moral code is based more or
> less on situational ethics? Or how does one define "morality" within
> Wicca, which is probably best described as a herd of cats?
That is a tough one. I don't like the term "situational ethics", because
is has come to mean something like "whatever happens to be convenient"
rather than the idea that different people and situations may need to be
measured with different yard sticks.
> And to me 'comrades' is rather narrow: it allows us
> to say "he's *too* successful: he's no longer my comrade."
My understanding of the term comdrade is rather along the lines of "for
better or for worse."
> Who *does* daydream of showing up at the local neighborhood church with
> a naked woman in a leash and chains. I'm just not going to do it--it's
> rude and inappropriate behaviour.
That depends on the church, eh?
William Edward Woody
nite...@btigate.com (JSA) wrote:
> wo...@alumni.caltech.edu (William Edward Woody) wrote:
>
> You bring up some very interesting points.
>
> > My dictionary defines Virtuous as being Moral.
>
> I took another peek at my Websters. It comes from the Latin word for "man"
> (vir), and, directly translated into English mean "manliness" or
> "strength".
>
> Virtues, then, could be defined as qualities that distinguish men from
> boys, moral strength. I suggest, that virtue indicates a ceratin degree of
> maturity.
Oh, certainly; mine also does the same derivation. I was just pointing out
today's modern (and common) usage of the word.
> > Which brings up an interesting question: how does one define "morality"
> > within a religious structure whose own moral code is based more or
> > less on situational ethics? Or how does one define "morality" within
> > Wicca, which is probably best described as a herd of cats?
>
> That is a tough one. I don't like the term "situational ethics", because
> is has come to mean something like "whatever happens to be convenient"
> rather than the idea that different people and situations may need to be
> measured with different yard sticks.
Sorry; I studied a little philosophy and have a hard time remembering
that most people hold the phrase "situation ethics" in disdain. Too
bad: for my money it's the only reasonable ethical system. (For those
who don't know, situational ethics is a system of ethics where one's
ethical and proper response is not considered "fixed" but based on
the situtation of the moment. Thus, instead of the sweeping statement
"killing another human being is wrong", you recognise that situations
can arise (such as the other person trying to kill you) where it is
ethically appropriate to kill that person.)
I'm a dyed in the wool situationalist, though I also keep in mind my
own limitations. That is, I know that there are situations which may
arise where the proper response may be to kill someone: I just know
that when push comes to shove I may *not* be able to pull the trigger.
Call it a weakness...
> > And to me 'comrades' is rather narrow: it allows us
> > to say "he's *too* successful: he's no longer my comrade."
>
> My understanding of the term comdrade is rather along the lines of "for
> better or for worse."
Yeah, but often many folks drop the "for worse" part faster than you can
say "38% tax bracket."
> > Who *does* daydream of showing up at the local neighborhood church with
> > a naked woman in a leash and chains. I'm just not going to do it--it's
> > rude and inappropriate behaviour.
>
> That depends on the church, eh?
*GRIN* Unfortunately, the local church is methodist. They're probably not
going to be real happy, and like I said, it's probably not very, well,
appropriate.
:
Beyond morality (and the other adjectives which are used in the
dictionary to describe the word virtuous), I believe a virtuous pagan
is someone who is honest with themselves. Someone who takes full
responsibility for all of their actions. Not some of their actions,
but ALL of their actions. Virtuous people know right from wrong, do
not steal, do not bring harm to others, take care of themselves and
their families, do nothing to harm the Earth, and most of all; are
people who know who they are inside...
RainOne
Zardoz
"Virtuous" from Latin "Vir" meaning Man.
Virtuous as in virile, or manly.
A virtuous pagan would be one who represents the God, the horned one, or
is otherwise manly.