Native Heathen Historians (was: Re: Why I Am Not a Christian)
Thorfinn Einarsson
> Of course, the roman scribes had already for long recorded the history of
> germans, celts etc. but the tribes didn't have any native historians.
It should be noted that defining "native historians" by Roman/Modern Western
standards is not being fair to the ancient Germans, Celts, etc.
Most of the runestones in Northern Europe not pertaining to "magic"
dealt with deeds or events. Unfortunately, many runecarvings were cut
into wood which has since decayed. This absence of evidence does not
mean evidence of absence.
A working definition of "history" for our purposes (context):
* TALE, STORY
* a chronological record of significant events
* a branch of knowledge that records and explains past events
The modern German word for "history" is "die Geschichte" meaning
history, story, event, affair, business, or concern.
In Northern Europe during Heathen times, familial history was a deeply
engrained concept. A child was ususally named after an ancestor, and it
was believed that a part of that ancestor's soul reincarnated in the body
of the child.
The Germanic people had a patrilineal naming system, whereby the son of
Jo(h)n's surname was "Jo(h)ns(s)on" or a daughter of Karl was
"Karls(s)dottir". There were differences on continental Europe. At any rate,
it was important to know one's heritage. A Heathen could go on for hours
relating hir ancestral heritage and major deeds accomplished
by those ancestors.
Besides familial history, a history of cosmology and of the god/esses
and their deeds was taught in the Old Norse work, *The Poetic Edda*.
(Lee M. Hollander's *Poetic Edda* is written in an archaic English style
and compromises authenticity for poetics. A newer translation is
*Poems of the Elder Edda* by Patricia Terry. This one is easier to read,
but is sometimes lacking in references. Of course, anyone looking for
these references should have a copy of the original Old Norse version,
*Die Lieder des Codex Regius nebst verwandten Denkmaelern*, by Gustav
Neckel and Hans Kuehn. Again, the truest interpretation is one which is
perceived from the original language source.)
Most, if not all, Germanic Heathens knew these stories, sometimes with
their own unique plot twists. These mythological and heroic histories were
usually verbally transmitted, although many ancient art works depict
key historical events.
Time was not viewed as we see it today. 24 hour cycles were called "nights",
and year cycles were called "winters". Time was measured against certain
key historical events, (ie. "It was the 4th Winter after Hermann destroyed
the Roman legions at Teutoburg." or "It was 25 Winters after Sigurdhr
became Chief/Earl/King.") Heathens had no need for a universal time system.
(As a side note, see the Paul Bauschatz work, *The Well and the Tree*. In
this thesis, he shows, through literary sources, Germanic concepts of time
and the cosmos. The ancient Germanic peoples walked backwards into the
future. They were aware of the present, and they held a deep reverence
towards their ancestors [the past]. Today, for example, the Chinese people
go through life the same way. It's an ancestral thing. The christian,
on the other hand, walked forward facing the future, but with hir head
looking far off in the distance [Heaven, the afterlife]. The christian
stumbled through the present [The life and ways of the flesh are to be
shunned.]. Any christian work from the Middle Ages will bear this out.)
Story-telling was a very common event during the long winters when the folk
was forced indoors. Around the comforting hearth, histories of far off lands,
of deeds done by brave individuals, of the glory (or infamy) of a chieftain,
of the famine 3 Winters ago (etc.), were told and re-told. Check out any
of the Icelandic sagas written down in the 12th-14th centuries. A short
listing of such sagas is:
Grettir's Saga
Saga of the Volsungs
Njal's Saga
Heimskringla
Eyrbyggja Saga
Landnamabok
Ynglinga Saga
Orkneyinga Saga
Egil's Saga
Hrolfs saga Kraka
Laxdaela Saga
Arrow-Odd's Saga
Gautrek's Saga
Sturlunga Saga
Thidrek's Saga
etc.
Many of these sagas have a strong historical content.
The Dark Ages are only "dark" to historians of today. Heathens had
a complex view of the soul, a concept of time and history which suited them
just fine, and a mature sense of awareness (of self, others, and nature)
that many in our time lack. Today, we "know" many things of a scientific
nature, but we, as individuals, have no more of a potential for wisdom
than had our ancestors. Is the Pop Culture, in which we live, any better
than the culture of the Ancient Ones? Does living in the Now, cut off from
the past, have more benefits than the ways of our ancestors who lived with
thousands of years of tradition? Are we really any smarter, or do we just
think we are? Re-discover your own heritage!
_ _ _
ODIN (_) (_) _) FM The Voice of the Slain!
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Antti Lahelma
>>m...@vipunen.hut.fi (Antti Lahelma) writes:
>> Of course, the roman scribes had already for long recorded the history of
>> germans, celts etc. but the tribes didn't have any native historians.
>Most of the runestones in Northern Europe not pertaining to "magic"
>dealt with deeds or events. Unfortunately, many runecarvings were cut
>into wood which has since decayed. This absence of evidence does not
>mean evidence of absence.
Although many runestones do describe historical events, they're of relatively
little value as actual historical writing. The runes say things like "Karli
built this bridge, Jon wrote the runes", where nothing of the bridge remains,
or that "Egil raised this stone in memory of his son Bjorn who was killed in
Gardarike". They do tell us quite a lot about the viking age society, but
few contain anything very important of the major historical events of the
time. The few exceptions to this date from a late period, usually describing
a kings (and his peoples) conversion to christianity.
Besides, most of the runestones date from a period later than 400CE, and when
I said that the heathens didn't have historians of their own, I meant that
prior to that date they didn't -- later, of course, they did; ones like Jorda-
nes of the Goths and Saxo & Snorri in scandinavia.
>Besides familial history, a history of cosmology and of the god/esses
>and their deeds was taught in the Old Norse work, *The Poetic Edda*.
>Most, if not all, Germanic Heathens knew these stories, sometimes with
>their own unique plot twists. These mythological and heroic histories were
>usually verbally transmitted, although many ancient art works depict
>key historical events.
I've seen many representations of *mythological* events in viking age art
works, but none of historical events. Could you give an example?
>Story-telling was a very common event during the long winters when the folk
>was forced indoors. Around the comforting hearth, histories of far off lands,
>of deeds done by brave individuals, of the glory (or infamy) of a chieftain,
>of the famine 3 Winters ago (etc.), were told and re-told. Check out any
>of the Icelandic sagas written down in the 12th-14th centuries. A short
>listing of such sagas is:
[a list of sagas deleted]
>Many of these sagas have a strong historical content.
Yes, apparently they do. But nevertheless, they were an oral tradition, and
oral traditions are always subject to change as time passes and different
storytellers make minor changes, forget verses, make new ones, etc. etc.
In the case of the sagas, they also present a quite subjective view of the
events. The romans were self-centered, but didn't twist the facts very badly
for political reasons. In Scandinavia, there was little control on the con-
tent of the sagas.
If you compare the sagas to the Kalevala, a Finnish work but one which deve-
loped in the same cultural sphere as the sagas did (viking age Finns were
culturally almost indestinguishable from the vikings), you'll notice that the
historical content in Kalevala is very deeply buried beneath mythological
interpretations, misunderstandings of old concepts by newer storytellers and
things like that (yet there are still glimpses of it there). The reason to
this is not that Finns couldn't distinguish between fact and fiction, but
simply that Kalevala was written down only in the early 19th century --
500 years later than it's icelandic counterparts. And the consequence is
that Kalevala has no value as a source of early Finnish history (even though
it sheds some light on the society, customs, beliefs and values).
This raises the question, which pieces of oral tradition, if any, can be
considered "history"? It's not an easy one to answer. It's clear that all
the norse sagas are a bit "corrupt", because they too were written down centu-
ries after they were composed, but to how large an extent is left for gues-
sing.
Contemporary historians are very wary to use the sagas to prove anything.
>The Dark Ages are only "dark" to historians of today. Heathens had
>a complex view of the soul, a concept of time and history which suited them
>just fine, and a mature sense of awareness (of self, others, and nature)
>that many in our time lack.
"Dark" only in the sense that there is little very accurate historical infor-
mation from that age, unlike with the preceding and following ages. Otherwi-
se I completely agree.
--
Antti Lahelma | m...@saha.hut.fi | GNOTHI SEAUTON
Lehtotie 3 -O- st...@purkki.apu.fi -*- ====== =======
00630 HELSINKI | <<Jumalat ovat pakanoille suosiollisia>> | TUNNE ITSESI
Grendel Grettisson
> A short listing of such sagas is:
>
>Grettir's Saga
Go Pa!
Wassail,
Grendel Grettisson
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G. Wolfe Woodbury
>
>>Many of these sagas have a strong historical content.
>
> Yes, apparently they do. But nevertheless, they were an oral tradition, and
> oral traditions are always subject to change as time passes and different
> storytellers make minor changes, forget verses, make new ones, etc. etc.
> In the case of the sagas, they also present a quite subjective view of the
> events. The romans were self-centered, but didn't twist the facts very badly
> for political reasons. In Scandinavia, there was little control on the con-
> tent of the sagas.
The Romans didn't twist facts for political reasons? Tell that
to the Eqyptians or the early Christians! ROtFL!
--
G. Wolfe Woodbury @ The Wolves Den, Durham NC [This site is NOT affiliated ]
wo...@wolves.durham.nc.us [with Duke University! Idiots!]
UUCP: ...!duke!wolves!wolfe <Standard Disclaimers apply>
Above All, we celebrate! --Celebrate the Circle, Statement of Purpose.
Antti Lahelma
>In <mtf.73...@vipunen.hut.fi> m...@vipunen.hut.fi (Antti Lahelma) writes:
>> events. The romans were self-centered, but didn't twist the facts very badly
>> for political reasons. In Scandinavia, there was little control on the con-
>> tent of the sagas.
> The Romans didn't twist facts for political reasons? Tell that
>to the Eqyptians or the early Christians! ROtFL!
Well, read Tacitus or Caesar for example. Considering that they were writing
of the worst enemies of the Roman empire, they manage to remain pretty objec-
tive. No trace of child-sacrifices, black magic or other imaginative propa-
ganda, with which many later christian historians, for example, filled their
works.
I didn't say they wouldn't have twisted facts at all, just not very badly.
I admit that there perhaps were some exceptions to this too.
What's ROtFL?
Peter van Heusden
>>m...@vipunen.hut.fi (Antti Lahelma) writes:
>> Of course, the roman scribes had already for long recorded the history of
>> germans, celts etc. but the tribes didn't have any native historians.
>It should be noted that defining "native historians" by Roman/Modern Western
>standards is not being fair to the ancient Germans, Celts, etc.
>Most of the runestones in Northern Europe not pertaining to "magic"
>dealt with deeds or events. Unfortunately, many runecarvings were cut
>into wood which has since decayed. This absence of evidence does not
>mean evidence of absence.
[deleted. nice post, btw]
>that many in our time lack. Today, we "know" many things of a scientific
>nature, but we, as individuals, have no more of a potential for wisdom
>than had our ancestors. Is the Pop Culture, in which we live, any better
>than the culture of the Ancient Ones? Does living in the Now, cut off from
>the past, have more benefits than the ways of our ancestors who lived with
>thousands of years of tradition? Are we really any smarter, or do we just
>think we are? Re-discover your own heritage!
Ok. Sure, I happen to love the past as well, but just a warning, don't sink
to deep. The future's a rather pressing problem.
Peter
--
*******************************************************************************
Peter van Heusden One man one newsfeed
CS3, UCT, Cape Town, RSA "How fast are you? How dense?"
pvan...@cs.uct.ac.za - Rudy Rucker
Steven K. Hoskin
> Subject: Re: Native Heathen Historians (was: Re: Why I Am Not
> a Christian)
>
> What's ROtFL?
>
ROtFL, or ROFL, means "Rolling On the Floor Laughing". It is
commonly mispelled ROLF, which has been theorized to be an ancient
Hebraic phrase for "Vomiting", "Rolling On the Linoleum Floor", or
"Rolling On the Loor Flaughing". Great research has gone into
discovering what a 'loor flaughing' was.
<Grin> Have a great day!
..........................Tear Along Dotted Line.............................
Steven K. Hoskin : Strictly MY opinion, no bearing on
HoskinSK%DF...@pcmail.usafa.af.mil : my employer. THAT should be obvious.
:
"Moderation in all things, including moderation."