CFV: soc.religion.paganism moderated
Daniel A. Hartung
FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
moderated group soc.religion.paganism
Newsgroups lines:
soc.religion.paganism Networking for Pagans. (Moderated)
Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 3 Aug 1996.
This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. For voting
questions only contact the votetaker. For questions about the
proposed groups contact one of the proponents listed at the end of
this message.
OFFICIAL SOURCES OF THE CFV:
The only official sources for copies of this CFV are the UseNet
newsgroups to which it is posted including news.announce.newgroups and
the votetaker.
RATIONALE: soc.religion.paganism
Paganism covers a lot of ground and currently covers several alt
newsgroups. None of these are currently moderated and do not wish
to become so since they are often gateway groups for newcomers in
spite of the spammers and trolls that have become endemic to the alt
newsgroups. Alt.pagan is the largest of these groups, with 100 to
150 posts (up to a top end of 400+, if you include the spam) per
day. Alt.religion.wicca is another, generating 50-100 posts per
day. Many of the users of alt.pagan have declared a need for a
separate, moderated home. Likewise, many of the users of
alt.religion.wicca have expressed support for this action.
Alt.pagan.moderated was discussed, but due to the difficulties in
getting propagation of new alt.* newsgroups it was decided to go for
a "big 8" newsgroup: soc.religion.paganism. Also, it should be
noted that many sites do not carry the alt.* groups, but do carry
the "Big 8". In soc.religion.paganism those who wish to explore
Paganism and network with those of like mind could do so without
much of the spam, trolls and flamewars.
Many of the world's religions are represented in the soc.religion
hierarchy and Paganism finally has enough numbers on the Internet to
warrant taking our place among them. We should note here that there
is a portion of Pagans that do not consider what they do to be
religion, but rather regard it as lifestyle. We have no intention
of excluding any pagan group or individual based on whether they
view themselves as religious or not. Taking this into account we
still feel that soc.religion is the place for the vast majority of
us. It is our belief that the visibility of the soc hierarchy would
provide both a forum and a significant resource for the many Pagans
worldwide, especially those only recently come to their beliefs, who
are often isolated from their peers. For these reasons we are
proposing the creation of soc.religion.paganism.
With the support of the members of alt.pagan, alt.religion.wicca,
tx.religion.pagan, and alt.magick.* along with the members of the
many Pagan mailing lists and others scattered across online services
and BBSs we are sure that we will have more than enough votes to
pass when the time comes.
NOTE: This proposed newsgroup is in no way intended to replace
alt.pagan. Many have voiced the desire that alt.pagan remain as an
un-moderated Pagan forum. Likewise the proposal of
soc.religion.paganism does not affect alt.religion.wicca or any
other Pagan or Pagan-frequented newsgroup.
CHARTER: soc.religion.paganism
Soc.religion.paganism will be a place for Pagans from around the
world to meet and discuss topics of interest to Pagans, and for
those interested in Paganism to learn more about it from those
involved in the many religions collectively known as Paganism.
No attempt will be made here to define Paganism, nor will posts be
approved or rejected based on any one person's concepts or
traditions. The Pagan community covers a wide range of specific and
non-specific religions and lifestyles, and all will be respected and
given space.
What will not be tolerated are posts promoting, arguing or comparing
Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Satanism that do not have
demonstrable relevance to Paganism. If the readers of
soc.religion.paganism wanted to read about these topics they would
go read them in the appropriate newsgroups. As many Pagans come to
Paganism from Christianity, endless posts about the topic of their
former religion are no more welcome than persistent postings of bar
drink recipes would be to alt.recovery.aa. Christians and other
non-Pagans are welcome to post, but they should keep to the topic of
the newsgroup.
Postings should abide by common rules of tolerance and openness.
The rules of netiquette should be observed at all times. Irrelevant
profanity should be avoided but will be tolerated. Anonymous
postings will be allowed.
The remainder of the Charter details the moderation procedures.
The moderation of soc.religion.paganism will be accomplished by
combining an automated Perl script, or modbot, with monitoring by an
odd-numbered panel of live moderators, referred to hereafter
collectively as The ModKin. Although the focal point of the
moderation is the modbot and its owner, the Modkin and the modbot
owner will share all duties equally except for those maintenance
functions that must be performed by the modbot owner. All effort
will be made to treat the modbot owner as just another modkin.
When a modkin leaves (or is removed) the position will be filled by
a simple majority vote of the members of approve_user (see the next
paragraph for a definition of the voting process to be used).
Additional modkin may be added by the same process taking care to
always maintain an odd number of modkin. The Modkin will decide
when it is time to add more modkin, or to decrease their number by
attrition or vote, by a simple "show of hands" on the Modkin mailing
list. A modkin may ask for a "leave of absence" of no more than
four weeks and will be temporarily removed from the post approval
queue. A longer absence will be taken as a resignation and the
modkin must be replaced. If more than one position is being filled
the winners will be chosen from the most votes received to the
least. A modkin may be removed by a simple majority vote of the
members in approve_user, but a modkin must post the Topic For
Discussion (TFD). A modkin who survives an attempted removal vote
will have a 90-day period during which no removal action may be
proposed against that modkin. Any needed change to the modbot
criteria or this Charter must be prepared by the Modkin and approved
by a 2/3 majority of the voting members of approve_user.
All votes will be prefaced by a discussion period of no less than 21
days following the posting of the TFD. The subject of this post must
be prefaced with "[TFD]" and should be written by the person(s) who
are raising the issue and sent via email to the modbot owner. The
modbot owner will post all TFD's. The author of a TFD may request
that it be withdrawn up to but not after a CFV has been issued. The
Call For Votes will also be posted by the modbot owner when s/he
determines discussion has ebbed, and prefaced with "[CFV]". The
voting period will be 30 days and all persons listed in approve_user
when the vote started are eligible to vote. To be valid at least 100
members, or 25% of the members in approve_user, whichever is
smaller, must respond. After an invalidated vote the topic may be
raised for discussion again after a 90-day waiting period,
restarting the whole process, or dropped at the request of the
original proponent. The results of the vote will be announced by the
vote-bot owner. The basic collection and tallying of votes will be
performed by a vote-bot, probably but not necessarily run on the
same system as the modbot, such as eVote.
The modbot will process all incoming posts and compare the headers
against these files in the order they appear here: approve_user,
approve_thread, valid_groups, deny_thread, and deny_user.
The From: line is checked against the approve_user file and, if
found, is automatically approved by the modbot. This file takes
precedence over all others. A User who is in approve_user can post
anything they want to, even spam. A user that abuses this right will
get an email warning from the Modkin and, if s/he does not correct
their behavior, will be removed from approve_user following a simple
majority vote of the Modkin. Any modkin can, with a modbot command,
add a user to approve_user but only the modbot owner can remove a
user from approve_user following a "show of hands" vote on the
Modkin mailing list. The message ID will be added to approve_thread
to ensure that replies are always visible.
If the Reference: field is in the approve_thread file then the post
is ok, even if it is spam. This will be used to make sure that
replies to crossposts originating from this group will make it back
in. A date check will be used to retire very old threads from this
file so it does not grow enormous.
Any post that includes more than spam_limit (a configured limit that
will be set and modified upon a "show of hands" vote among the
Modkin) number of newsgroups that are not in the valid_groups file
will be automatically recognized as spam. This means that the post
can be cross-posted to any number of newsgroups that are contained
in valid_groups but not more than spam_limit groups that are not.
The method for handling spam will be to edit the Newsgroups: line,
removing soc.religion.paganism, and then resubmitting the post to
the nearest news server. The contents of the valid_groups file will
be determined by the modbot owner with input from the Modkin and
users, and will be included in the soc.religion.paganism moderation
FAQ.
The two deny files will reject a post whose Subject:, Reference: or
From: line matches a pattern in these files, resulting in an email
notification to the author with the reason the post was rejected.
This will be used to prevent the appearance of such eternal threads
as M*KE M*N*Y F*ST. A personal email address will only stay in the
deny_user file for a period of 30 days.
Any post that does not meet the criteria for the four modbot files
will be forwarded to one of The ModKin, chosen at random from the
modkin file, for approval or rejection. The moderator can then
approve, reject or ask the modbot to give it to another modkin.
Modbot commands will also allow the moderator to send a FAQ and add
a user to approve_user, among other things. The modbot will also
post the FAQ on a regular schedule.
A post may be rejected for any of the following reasons:
Off Topic - something so wildly off topic that any sane person would
object to its inclusion. This includes discussions of Christianity
or Satanism that do not show relevance to Paganism.
Binaries - This is NOT a binary newsgroup and binaries will not be
permitted. IF a file is available a pointer to the anonymous ftp
site it is on should be posted so those who want it can go get it.
Troll - any post for the sole purpose of attracting flames, usually
made as a form of newsgroup attack or abuse. E.g. "Animal Sacrifice"
is NOT a troll, although it will draw flames; "Human Sacrifice"
would depend on the historical content of the post; "Witches
Sacrifice Babies" is a troll (as well as a damned lie).
Spam - The modbot should catch all of these but there are always
possible combinations we haven't thought of. Endless repetitions of
the same post (usually caused by damaged servers or software) should
also be removed as spam.
Unrelated Commercial - A sales pitch that is not relevant to Pagans.
All advertisements that ARE allowed must preface the subject with
[AD]: so that those who wish to may filter them out.
Proselytizing - Non-Pagan proselytizing is strictly forbidden. If
any Pagans ever try it we will probably all fall out of our chairs
laughing.
Intolerance - Rants like "My X is right and your Y is EEE-VULL."
Such intolerance can come from inside our community as well as from
without but it has no place here. No one way is all right and no way
is all wrong.
Bible Quotes - It is debatable whether quoting Bible verses falls
under "Intolerance" or "Off Topic" or "Proselytizing" but they are
not welcome unless part of a valid Pagan discussion.
Anything not in this list should be approved, but the ModKin may use
their own best judgment. When reviewing a newbie or clueless post,
the modkin should consider the following:
"If you put two 'single-clued' people together they will
collectively have two clues to rub together thus enhancing each of
their experiences in a way not possible before. This is a good
definition of growth. It also works if you rub one of your clues
against their single clue." -Ironshadow, from a post in alt.pagan
There are a couple of post categories that, while not being criteria
for rejection, should still be listed here and defined.
Newbie - These basic first-time questions should be FAQ'd and then
posted. Often more than the poster can learn from the public answers
to these questions and the old topics they revivify. The subject
line of these posts should be modified by the modkin that reviews it
to preface it with "[FAQ'd]" to indicate to all that this post has
already been responded to with a copy of the soc.religion.paganism
FAQ.
Fluff - Not a rejection criteria so long as the subject is prefaced
with "[FLUFF]" so that those who wish to avoid it may more easily
killfile it. The modkin reviewing the post may add the "[FLUFF]" tag
before approving it without the author's prior permission.
Administrative - These are messages from the Modkin or the modbot
regarding newsgroup operations (such as the daily rejected posts
summary report) and will be prefaced with "[Admin]".
The modbot will produce and post a daily summary of all rejected
postings by author, subject, message id, who rejected it and the
reason for doing so. Anyone can request a rejected post, via email,
from the modbot by referring to a message number from the daily
summary. This will provide a check on The ModKin, allowing anyone
to keep tabs on how The ModKin are using the power of their
position.
Anyone can also request a FAQ or similar document directly from the
modbot. The mechanism for doing this will be posted to the group on
a regular basis.
One last note. It would be a good practice to preface posts that are
about a specific path or tradition with a tag indicating this. For
instance, a post about the Wiccan Rede might have the subject
"[WICCA] Is the Rede an absolute rule or a guide?" while a post
about Asatru might be titled "[ASATRU] The price of wisdom." A list
of recommended tags will be compiled by the Modkin and included in
the Moderation FAQ under "Posting Guidelines". This is not an
enforced rule, only a recommendation to help us all get the most out
of our newsgroup.
END CHARTER.
MODERATOR INFO: soc.religion.paganism
Moderator: Donal <do...@brewich.com>
Administrative contact address: srp-...@brewich.com
Article submission address: srp...@brewich.com
NOTE: The following are the moderators who comprise the moderation circle,
referred to as The Modkin in the Charter:
Modkin: Ailsa Murphy <an...@spdcc.com>
Modkin: Donal <do...@brewich.com>
Modkin: Hampster <jkh...@frii.com>
Modkin: Lorrie Wood <lor...@mellers1.psych.berkeley.edu>
Modkin: Ounce (felis uncia) <ac...@netcom.com>
END MODERATOR INFO.
HOW TO VOTE
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Just Replying to this message should work, but check the "To:" line.
Quick voting checklist:
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IMPORTANT VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES
Anything other than the official ballot may be rejected by the automatic vote
counting program. The votetaker will respond to your received ballots with
an automated acknowledgement by e-mail - if you do not receive one within
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Only one vote per person, no more than one vote per account. Addresses and
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and unmodified.
When in doubt, ask the votetaker.
Proponent: Donal <do...@brewich.com>
Proponent: Ailsa Murphy <an...@spdcc.com>
Proponent: Baird Stafford <ba...@gate.net>
Proponent: Spirit Shepard <nwi...@sfsu.edu>
Proponent: Hampster <jkh...@frii.com>
Proponent: Ian Paul Foot <i.f...@ic.ac.uk>
Proponent: Lorrie Wood <lor...@mellers1.psych.berkeley.edu>
Proponent: Mark Silverdragon <whit...@gagme.wwa.com>
Proponent: Ounce (felis uncia) <ac...@netcom.com>
Proponent: Ravan Asteris <ther...@wco.com>
Proponent: Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik <sus...@mail.utexas.edu>
Proponent: Susan Profit <ti...@eskimo.com>
Proponent: Uncle Wolf <low...@platsol.com>
Proponent: Wildcard McCoghlan-Finn <wild...@acs.bu.edu>
Proponent: Knight <kni...@fbkltd.com>
Proponent: Nonie Veccia <non...@GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU>
Votetaker: Dan Hartung <dhar...@mcs.com>
Ashley Branchfeather
In article <8372299...@uunet.uu.net>, dhar...@mcs.com (Daniel A.
Hartung) wrote:
> FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
> moderated group soc.religion.paganism
>No attempt will be made here to define Paganism, nor will posts be
>approved or rejected based on any one person's concepts or
>traditions. The Pagan community covers a wide range of specific and
>non-specific religions and lifestyles, and all will be respected and
>given space.
Apparently not all.
>What will not be tolerated are posts promoting, arguing or comparing
>Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Satanism that do not have
>demonstrable relevance to Paganism.
As has been well-demonstrated in arguments on the topic, Satanism is as
much a form of Paganism as Wicca, Druidry or Asatru. In as much as it's a
form of the Cult of the Horned God, you could say it's one of the oldest
known religions, depicted on French caves at least eleven thousand years
ago.
As such, I don't feel I can vote for this proposal, though I will almost
certainly post to the group if it gets created.
I'm not trying to re-open an argument which everyone is by now quite bored
with, but to urge others who feel the same way to also protest in this
way.
Just put 'abstain' in the box and mail it off.
--
Ashley Branchfeather
Natalie Ramsey
Ashley Branchfeather (Ash...@halcyon.com) wrote:
: In article <8372299...@uunet.uu.net>, dhar...@mcs.com (Daniel A.
: Hartung) wrote:
: > FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
: > moderated group soc.religion.paganism
: >No attempt will be made here to define Paganism, nor will posts be
: >approved or rejected based on any one person's concepts or
: >traditions. The Pagan community covers a wide range of specific and
: >non-specific religions and lifestyles, and all will be respected and
: >given space.
: Apparently not all.
: >What will not be tolerated are posts promoting, arguing or comparing
: >Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Satanism that do not have
: >demonstrable relevance to Paganism.
: As has been well-demonstrated in arguments on the topic, Satanism is as
: much a form of Paganism as Wicca, Druidry or Asatru. In as much as it's a
: form of the Cult of the Horned God, you could say it's one of the oldest
: known religions, depicted on French caves at least eleven thousand years
: ago.
: As such, I don't feel I can vote for this proposal, though I will almost
: certainly post to the group if it gets created.
Ashley, I think you've misinterpreted something here. A post on Satanism
that has demonstrable relevance to Paganism (assuming here that that's
not a redundant construction :-) *will* be of relevance. Most of the
posts that have been seen on alt.religion.wicca (I can't speak for
alt.pagan) *have* IMO shown "demonstrable relevance to Paganism,"
whether they have been of the "Wicca and Satanism have nothing to
do with each other" sort or Lorax's commentary or what have you.
I really do think you've misinterpreted this. As you are probably
aware, I feel much as you do about Satanists and their place in
Paganism (not that either is a monolith, but you get my point). But
I don't find this restriction unreasonable. Certainly a discussion
of the Church of Satan-Temple of Set division would not be on topic
in soc.religion.pagan, *regardless* of the "pagan-ness" of either
Satanism as a whole or of some ToSsers. I think that the charter
restriction is directed more at that sort of thing than at honest
discussion of Satanism's relationship to (other) Pagan religions.
The latter would certainly be on-charter.
: I'm not trying to re-open an argument which everyone is by now quite bored
: with, but to urge others who feel the same way to also protest in this
: way.
: Just put 'abstain' in the box and mail it off.
I urge you to re-read the charter, Ashley. I really do.
Blessings,
Natalie
--
Natalie Overstreet Ramsey - <nat...@col.hp.com> - *** I don't speak for HP ***
Someone sent me a postcard picture of the earth.
On the back it said, "Wish you were here."
-- Steven Wright
silv...@chaos.connect-bbs.com
AS>As has been well-demonstrated in arguments on the topic, Satanism is as
AS>much a form of Paganism as Wicca, Druidry or Asatru. In as much as it's a
AS>form of the Cult of the Horned God, you could say it's one of the oldest
AS>known religions, depicted on French caves at least eleven thousand years
AS>ago.
If the only thing it has to claim to be pagan is the fact that
it's eity has horns, then it is a very poor attachment. Paganism is a
lot more then a question of whether or not your primary diety is
depicted as having cranial protrusions.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-CONNECTions BBS-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
telnet://connect-bbs.com
http://amber.connect-bbs.com
dialin: 316.682.7346
Ashley Branchfeather
In article <4sg978$s...@nonews.col.hp.com>, nat...@col.hp.com (Natalie
Ramsey) wrote:
...
>But
>I don't find this restriction unreasonable. Certainly a discussion
>of the Church of Satan-Temple of Set division would not be on topic
>in soc.religion.pagan, *regardless* of the "pagan-ness" of either
>Satanism as a whole or of some ToSsers.
What about a discussion of OBOD vs. ADF, or a comparison of two forms of Wicca?
>I think that the charter
>restriction is directed more at that sort of thing than at honest
>discussion of Satanism's relationship to (other) Pagan religions.
>The latter would certainly be on-charter.
You seem to be saying it's OK to discuss Satanism, provided you relate it
to Paganism in some way. I believe Satanism is already a kind of Paganism,
so any discussion of Satanism should be on-topic.
--
Ashley Branchfeather
Larry Caldwell
In article <AshleyB-1507...@news.halcyon.com>,
Ash...@halcyon.com (Ashley Branchfeather) wrote:
> >What will not be tolerated are posts promoting, arguing or comparing
> >Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Satanism that do not have
> >demonstrable relevance to Paganism.
> As has been well-demonstrated in arguments on the topic, Satanism is as
> much a form of Paganism as Wicca, Druidry or Asatru. In as much as it's a
> form of the Cult of the Horned God, you could say it's one of the oldest
> known religions, depicted on French caves at least eleven thousand years
> ago.
If you will read the paragraph carefully, the only satanist posts that
are to be excluded are those that have no relevance to paganism.
Specifically, we will not be subjected to "Jesus is really the dark god"
rants, or other such productions of unstable personalities. However,
any post about satanism that relates to paganism is definitely on topic
and allowed.
There was quite a vigorous discussion about this during the RFD. I think
Donal chose the wording very carefully. It does NOT say, "All posts about
satanism will be excluded."
-- Larry
Paul Connelly
> >What will not be tolerated are posts promoting, arguing or comparing
> >Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Satanism that do not have
> >demonstrable relevance to Paganism.
>
> As has been well-demonstrated in arguments on the topic, Satanism is as
> much a form of Paganism as Wicca, Druidry or Asatru. In as much as it's a
> form of the Cult of the Horned God, you could say it's one of the oldest
> known religions, depicted on French caves at least eleven thousand years
> ago.
I find that particular paragraph that you quoted a bit slippery,
although i voted 'YES' anyway. To the extent that Satanists
claim to be Pagan and express some degree of solidarity with
others who claim to be Pagan, i think their opinions should be
included in soc.religion.paganism. On the other hand, if there
are postings that are just "Christianity is your salvation, all
this Pagan stuff is Satanism" or "Satanism is superior to
Christianity", then i'd rather see that discussion go someplace
else. If it's a case of "this is how Satanism differs from Wicca",
though, i'd think that would be appropriate to the new group.
- paul
--
Ut ibi arduum cursum angelorum perficiam
William C Waggoner
Ash...@halcyon.com (Ashley Branchfeather) wrote:
>You seem to be saying it's OK to discuss Satanism, provided you relate it
>to Paganism in some way. I believe Satanism is already a kind of Paganism,
>so any discussion of Satanism should be on-topic.
To stick my own two cents in here ... I'd say, Yes, Satanism should be
included in the "valid" discussion topics, just as Judaism,
Chritianity, Buddism, Shinto, ... the list goes on, where a SERIOUS
religious/belief discussion occurs. I personally feel the Satanism is
a Christien belief and I would be very happy, and think it
appropriate, to discuss that on S.R.P. AS LONG AS the discussion does
NOT degrade to FLAMES, TROLLS, etc. Unfortunately, that will be a
very hard state to accomplish, but I'm willing to try.
The current ALT.PAGAN groups would instantaneously degrade to flames,
no? Perhaps a moderated S.R.P will take a millisecond longer?
Discuss among yourselves ... ;-)
Greybeard
Balanone
On Jul 16, 1996,
Ash...@halcyon.com wrote to All
re: Re: Why I am abstaining from the s.r.p vote
>But
>I don't find this restriction unreasonable. Certainly a discussion
>of the Church of Satan-Temple of Set division would not be on topic
>in soc.religion.pagan, *regardless* of the "pagan-ness" of either
>Satanism as a whole or of some ToSsers.
AB@h> What about a discussion of OBOD vs. ADF, or a comparison of two
AB@h> forms of Wicca?
>I think that the charter
>restriction is directed more at that sort of thing than at honest
>discussion of Satanism's relationship to (other) Pagan religions.
>The latter would certainly be on-charter.
AB@h> You seem to be saying it's OK to discuss Satanism, provided you
AB@h> relate it to Paganism in some way. I believe Satanism is already a
AB@h> kind of Paganism, so any discussion of Satanism should be on-topic.
Ashley, you raise some very good points. If a discussion comparing
Gardnerian Wicca to Dianic Wicca would be on topic, then a discussion
comparing H.O.M.E. Satanism to CoSatanism should be too. Even TJ's rants
about entropy and the dark force of nature would be on topic, as much as
I'd hate to subject the rest of Paganism to them.
As long as major forms of Satanism are Pagan, as long as the group of
"Satanism" intersects the group of "Paganism" as much as it does, as
long as there are so many Satanists who are also Pagans as there are, we
must face the fact that most solid Satanic topics will also be Pagan
topics.
(Yes, there are some forms of Satanism, and some Satanists, that are not
Pagan, and those forms/people/ideas which are not Pagan should be
excluded from s.r.p on that basis. But those forms of Satanism and those
Satanists who are Pagan need to be included.)
We all have topics and threads we'd rather not read, but which happen to
be (would be) on topic in that forum, based on its name. We need to be
able to skip threads, killfile people and subjects, etc; no team of
moderators or robot is going to be able to do this for us. I like the
idea of a moderated group where we can avoid the trolls and spam, but
the moderators can't exclude good on-topic discussions just because some
(or even most) readers aren't interested and don't like the topic.
If/when a soc.religion.satanism group is started, then it might be
reasonable to exclude cross-satanic or pure-satanic discussion from
s.r.p on the basis that "there's a better newsgroup for that
discussion," but until then such discussions are as much on topic in
s.r.p. as cross-Wiccan discussions are.
Balanone
PP
FidoNet: Balanone at 1:203/2019
PODS: Balanone at 93:9303/2019
Internet: Bala...@tefnut.gigo.com
... AMUSEMENT: The happiness of those who can't think.
___ TagDude 0.87 [Unregistered] with 12311 taglines.
--
: Fidonet: Balanone 1:203/2019 .. speaking for only myself.
: Internet: Bala...@tefnut.gigo.com
Balanone
On Jul 17, 1996,
nat...@col.hp.com responded to Ashley Branchfeather
re: Re: Why I am abstaining from the s.r.p vote
: >But
: >I don't find this restriction unreasonable. Certainly a discussion
: >of the Church of Satan-Temple of Set division would not be on topic
: >in soc.religion.pagan, *regardless* of the "pagan-ness" of either
: >Satanism as a whole or of some ToSsers.
N@c> : What about a discussion of OBOD vs. ADF, or a comparison of two
N@c> forms of Wicca?
N@c> Touche. :-) I suppose I was really referring more to the personal
N@c> bad blood between the LaVeys and Aquino.
personal bad blood between any two people should probably be off-topic
unless it reflects generally on Paganism.
N@c> Someone else (I don't recall whom) has stated that the prohibition
N@c> is really more directed towards "BOW DOWN AND WORSHIP SATAN" or
N@c> "SATAN WILL BURN YOU IN HELL" sorts of posts. Can we agree that
N@c> such things will, in general, be off-topic? Whether or not all
N@c> Satanism is Pagan, I don't think the above belongs on
N@c> soc.religion.paganism. ...
I'd agree that such posts are off topic (would be off topic) in s.r.p;
I forget -- is there any rule in the charter against prosyletizing or
threatening on the basis of one's specific religion, pagan or not?
Balanone
PP
FidoNet: Balanone at 1:203/2019
PODS: Balanone at 93:9303/2019
Internet: Bala...@tefnut.gigo.com
... Cthulhu! You've been SPOKEN to about biting the readers!
Natalie Ramsey
Ashley Branchfeather (Ash...@halcyon.com) wrote:
: In article <4sg978$s...@nonews.col.hp.com>, nat...@col.hp.com (Natalie
: Ramsey) wrote:
: ...
: >But
: >I don't find this restriction unreasonable. Certainly a discussion
: >of the Church of Satan-Temple of Set division would not be on topic
: >in soc.religion.pagan, *regardless* of the "pagan-ness" of either
: >Satanism as a whole or of some ToSsers.
: What about a discussion of OBOD vs. ADF, or a comparison of two forms of Wicca?
Touche. :-) I suppose I was really referring more to the personal bad
blood between the LaVeys and Aquino.
: >I think that the charter
: >restriction is directed more at that sort of thing than at honest
: >discussion of Satanism's relationship to (other) Pagan religions.
: >The latter would certainly be on-charter.
: You seem to be saying it's OK to discuss Satanism, provided you relate it
: to Paganism in some way.
Not me, but the charter. :-)
: I believe Satanism is already a kind of Paganism,
: so any discussion of Satanism should be on-topic.
Well, certainly discussion of the issue would be on topic. :-) And if
Satanism (as a whole) really *is* a kind of Paganism, discussion of it
is on-charter anyway you slice it (because it will relate to Paganism,
of course! :-).
Someone else (I don't recall whom) has stated that the prohibition is
really more directed towards "BOW DOWN AND WORSHIP SATAN" or "SATAN
WILL BURN YOU IN HELL" sorts of posts. Can we agree that such
things will, in general, be off-topic? Whether or not all Satanism
is Pagan, I don't think the above belongs on soc.religion.paganism.
A discussion comparing (say) LaVey's Satanic Principles with (say)
Cunningham's Thirteen Rules for the Witch (or whatever) would
certainly be on-topic (if a bit strange :-). Would an extended talk
on the Principles alone be on-topic? I'm not sure, but I trust our
moderators in this instance. It would probably depend, in part,
on who started it. ;-)
In short, I don't perceive the charter of the group as hostile to
Pagan Satanists (which is redundant from your perspective, I suppose).
:-)
Ashley Branchfeather
In article <4sjm93$e...@nonews.col.hp.com>, nat...@col.hp.com (Natalie
Ramsey) wrote:
>Someone else (I don't recall whom) has stated that the prohibition is
>really more directed towards "BOW DOWN AND WORSHIP SATAN" or "SATAN
>WILL BURN YOU IN HELL" sorts of posts. Can we agree that such
>things will, in general, be off-topic?
I suppose so, but so should posts such as "BOW DOWN AND WORSHIP ARADIA" or
"CERNUNNOS WILL STICK YOUR CAPS-LOCK KEY" and the like.
It would rather depend on the content. If someone has a good reason why I
should BOW DOWN and/or WORSHIP SATAN it should be posted. If it's just a
lame attempt to annoy Christians, it should be rejected on that basis, not
because it has anything to do with Satanism.
The second example you gave is more of a Christian sentiment, and could be
rejected as having no relevance to Paganism.
>Whether or not all Satanism
>is Pagan, I don't think the above belongs on soc.religion.paganism.
>A discussion comparing (say) LaVey's Satanic Principles with (say)
>Cunningham's Thirteen Rules for the Witch (or whatever) would
>certainly be on-topic (if a bit strange :-). Would an extended talk
>on the Principles alone be on-topic?
Oh yes, in my view, as would extended, and rather boring, discussions
for/against the Wiccan Rede.
--
Ashley Branchfeather
Bill W Smith Jr
In article <AshleyB-1607...@news.halcyon.com>, Ash...@halcyon.com
says...
>
>What about a discussion of OBOD vs. ADF, or a comparison of two forms of
Wicca?
>
>so any discussion of Satanism should be on-topic.
You have missed the point. Yes, we agree that some practices of Satanism,
as practiced by SOME Satanists, is just as Pagan as anybody here.
What we were trying to do, with perhaps questionable sucess, was to say
that what is NOT on topic are posts about how Satanism compares to
Christianity, etc.
Let me give an example.
"Satanism and the worship of the Horned One" is on topic.
"I WORSHIP SATIN! DEATH TO CHRISTIANITY IN ALL ITS FORMS!" is not.
Hope I have clarified things.
:)
Blessed Be
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill W Smith Jr <bi...@srisoft.com>
http://www.srisoft.com
Senior Programmer
ftp://ftp.srisoft.com
Sunland Resources, Inc.
(713) 955-2800 (Voice)
(713) 955-7564 (Fax)
Matthew Daly
bi...@srisoft.com (Bill W Smith Jr) writes:
>
>Let me give an example.
>
>"Satanism and the worship of the Horned One" is on topic.
>
>"I WORSHIP SATIN! DEATH TO CHRISTIANITY IN ALL ITS FORMS!" is not.
SATIN IS DEAD! ONLY COTTON HOLDS THE LIFE EVERLASTING!!
Abandon the shoe ... follow the gourd!
=)
-Matthew, getting behind on that medication....
--
Matthew Daly I don't buy everything I read ... I haven't
da...@ppd.kodak.com even read everything I've bought.
My opinions are not necessarily those of my employer, of course.
Ashley Branchfeather
In article <4smor4$7...@news.cic.net>, jsai...@phish.nether.net (Jasmine
Sailing) wrote:
>I was looking at that as a matter of semantics. When Satanism
>is lumped in with Christianty and all relations, it tends to
>mean pissed off Catholics who rebel by worshipping an anthro-
>pomorphososized red guy holding a pitch fork and breathing
>fire. Which, of course, has absolutely nothing to do with
>the true aspects of Satanism relevant to paganism.
Are there such people? Have any posted here?
--
Ashley Branchfeather
Jasmine Sailing
In article <connelly-160...@199.232.254.25>,
Paul Connelly <conn...@dawnstar.darc.org> wrote:
>I find that particular paragraph that you quoted a bit slippery,
>although i voted 'YES' anyway. To the extent that Satanists
>claim to be Pagan and express some degree of solidarity with
>others who claim to be Pagan, i think their opinions should be
>included in soc.religion.paganism. On the other hand, if there
>are postings that are just "Christianity is your salvation, all
>this Pagan stuff is Satanism" or "Satanism is superior to
>Christianity", then i'd rather see that discussion go someplace
>else. If it's a case of "this is how Satanism differs from Wicca",
>though, i'd think that would be appropriate to the new group.
I was looking at that as a matter of semantics. When Satanism
is lumped in with Christianty and all relations, it tends to
mean pissed off Catholics who rebel by worshipping an anthro-
pomorphososized red guy holding a pitch fork and breathing
fire. Which, of course, has absolutely nothing to do with
the true aspects of Satanism relevant to paganism.
BTW, I voted yes.
Jasmine Sailing Cyber-Psychos AOD jsai...@netonecom.net
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Cyber-Psycho comes from the Greek roots Cyber, meaning governor,
and psycho, meaning soul. In this world only the crazy are sane.
We are the crazy who seek to be our own governors, we regulate and
correct the evolution of our own souls.
Jasmine Sailing
In article <AshleyB-1807...@news.halcyon.com>,
Ashley Branchfeather <Ash...@halcyon.com> wrote:
>In article <4smor4$7...@news.cic.net>, jsai...@phish.nether.net (Jasmine
>Sailing) wrote:
>>I was looking at that as a matter of semantics. When Satanism
>>is lumped in with Christianty and all relations, it tends to
>>mean pissed off Catholics who rebel by worshipping an anthro-
>>pomorphososized red guy holding a pitch fork and breathing
>>fire. Which, of course, has absolutely nothing to do with
>>the true aspects of Satanism relevant to paganism.
>
>Are there such people? Have any posted here?
>
Which people? If you mean the stereotypical rebellious Satanist,
yes, there are several of those. That's why the popular media
image associated with the title tends to be orgying perverts
who sacrifice babies and virgins under the full moon.
Do any of these people post to alt.satanism? Hell if I know.
I'm posting from news.groups. Without having read the group,
I suspect that such posters would probably not be taken ser-
iously and get laughed right off of alt.satanism. I certainly
came across enough people in Real Life (tm) who thought that
was a cool image to have and always got laughed off for being
twitty and pretentious.
The net is getting overly popular. Mainstream interpretations
and fears need to be taken more into account now.
Jasmine Sailing Cyber-Psychos AOD jsai...@netonecom.net
**********************************************************************
Please disregard my temporary psychosis as I am having PMS, my
baby is teething, and I haven't even seen anyone castrated with
a claymore lately. Life is sooooo rough, man! <weep, snarl, glare>
Warning for the sarcasm impaired: This post and sig contain sarcasm.
silv...@chaos.connect-bbs.com
JS>the true aspects of Satanism relevant to paganism.
JS>BTW, I voted yes.
I never seem to have recieved a copy of this form on my forum
feeder.. could someone e-mail me a copy, preferably with the proper
return address in the return address if possible? (I have noticed some
programs appear able to have both a from and a reply to with seperate
addresses... )
Larry Caldwell
In article <AshleyB-1807...@news.halcyon.com>,
Ash...@halcyon.com (Ashley Branchfeather) wrote:
> Are there such people? Have any posted here?
Oodles. You want I should mail you my a.p killfile? It's a big 'un.
-- Larry
Lowell Morrison
In article <AshleyB-1807...@news.halcyon.com>,
Ashley Branchfeather <Ash...@halcyon.com> wrote:
>In article <4smor4$7...@news.cic.net>, jsai...@phish.nether.net (Jasmine
>Sailing) wrote:
>
>>pomorphososized red guy holding a pitch fork and breathing
>>fire. Which, of course, has absolutely nothing to do with
>
>
time to time. They not only tell us how wonderful satanism
is, Sacraficing Babies and Virgins, but how awful Christainity
is. "Kill all Christians". was a subject headder from not too long
ago. Actually, this has nothing to do with Satanism, they are
quite usually and Simply..... SPAM.....
--Uncle Wolf
--Proponent soc.religion.paganism
Natalie Ramsey
Followups to alt.pagan and alt.satanism only; this has little relevance
to s.r.p anymore. Be warned, though: I don't read either
a.p or a.s.
Lowell Morrison (low...@troy.la.platsol.com) wrote:
: In article <AshleyB-1807...@news.halcyon.com>,
: Ashley Branchfeather <Ash...@halcyon.com> wrote:
: >In article <4smor4$7...@news.cic.net>, jsai...@phish.nether.net (Jasmine
: >Sailing) wrote:
: >
: >>pomorphososized red guy holding a pitch fork and breathing
: >>fire. Which, of course, has absolutely nothing to do with
: >>the true aspects of Satanism relevant to paganism.
: >
: >Are there such people? Have any posted here?
: >
: Ashley, in a word, YES, names like "Scratch" come to mind from
: time to time.
I trust you are not referring to Mr. Scratch, sometime adversary of
Catherine Deville, regular critic of the Church of All Worlds,
and member of the Temple of Set? While I can certainly see why
some folk would find him annoying, I have never known him to
post the sort of utter troll Jasmine characterized above, and
that you do below. Quite the contrary, in fact; IMO his posts
have been quite cogent to Paganism, even if one defines the
term to exclude Satanists of various stripes.
Of course, given that I have not read a.p for many moons now,
it could be that you are referring to someone else with whom
I am unfamiliar, or that Mr. Scratch has behaved badly while
I wasn't watching. In any case, I would appreciate a clarification.
: They not only tell us how wonderful satanism
: is, Sacraficing Babies and Virgins, but how awful Christainity
: is. "Kill all Christians". was a subject headder from not too long
: ago. Actually, this has nothing to do with Satanism, they are
: quite usually and Simply..... SPAM.....
Just so.
Daniel A. Hartung
LAST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
Daniel A. Hartung
RESULT
moderated group soc.religion.paganism passes 429:61
soc.religion.paganism results - 493 valid votes
Yes No : 2/3? >100? : Pass? : Group
---- ---- : ---- ----- : ----- : -------------------------------------------
429 61 : Yes Yes : Yes : soc.religion.paganism
1 abstaining vote and 10 invalid votes
Newsgroups lines:
soc.religion.paganism Networking for Pagans. (Moderated)
Voting closed 23:59:59 UTC, 3 Aug 1996.
This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. For voting
questions only contact the votetaker. For questions about the
proposed groups contact one of the proponents listed at the end of
this message.
RATIONALE: soc.religion.paganism
CHARTER: soc.religion.paganism
END CHARTER.
MODERATOR INFO: soc.religion.paganism
END MODERATOR INFO.
soc.religion.paganism Final Vote Ack
Voted Yes
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10334...@CompuServe.COM Carolyn Gregory
3a...@qlink.queensu.ca A. R. B. Lehrer
76244...@compuserve.com Douglas C. Nelson
a00...@airmail.net Nancy Lorenzen
a5f...@ix.netcom.com Tom McDonald <a5f...@ix.netcom.com>
aa...@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Thomas Dunbar aa...@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca
aber...@ic3.ithaca.edu Andrea Berman
ac...@netcom.com Felis Uncia
a...@inetnebr.com Alicia C. Graybill
ack...@sfu.ca Trish Ackland
AE3C...@swansea.ac.uk Ffred Clegg
ae...@freenet.carleton.ca Nigel Allen
ae...@yfn.ysu.edu David Sanders
a...@interramp.com Andrea Ashtine
a...@dyno.com Alan King
al...@yfn.ysu.edu Tina M. Wood
ala...@netcom.com Alaria Greene ap Tower
Ald...@aol.com ELLEN SAUNDERS
a...@opac.bl.uk Anthony John Brickell
Anthon...@wanadoo.fr Anthony Kemp
apt...@netcom.com Nina Killgore
ari...@taronga.com Stephanie da Silva
arro...@hops.cs.jhu.edu Ken Arromdee
ashe...@alleg.edu Ann Sheffield
Ash...@halcyon.com Ashley Branchfeather
ash...@netcom.com Ashton Eidolon
aste...@sophia.smith.edu Anne Stevens
ato...@freethought.pn.com Arthur R. Torrey (aka Gooserider)
aux...@panther.Gsu.EDU CARL McCOLMAN
awy...@hpel.cees.edu Angela Wyatt
baba...@zilker.com Andrea B. Wagnon <aka. Morrigane LaFaire>
ba...@gate.net Baird Stafford
Bala...@tefnut.gigo.com Balanone (used consistently in all pagan posts)
Barry...@prodigy.com Barry C. Swift
bart...@U.Arizona.EDU Chanda Bartlett
bba...@cqi.com William Bacon
bbo...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu Bryan Bowen
bd...@freenet.uchsc.edu Gordon Klock
bd...@freenet.uchsc.edu Miranda Winters
bdh...@ghgcorp.com Benjamin D. Hall
bea...@Glue.umd.edu Kelly Fox
ben...@easynet.co.uk James Bennett
ber...@argus.lpl.arizona.edu Kalynnda M. Berens
bfo...@indiana.edu Greg Marchant
BiF...@aol.com Amy Dunaway
birc...@email.njin.net Dan Birchall
biy...@nyx.net Bruce Young
bl...@Catch22.COM Bobbie L. Sellers
bmy...@uoguelph.ca Brendan Myers
bog...@io.com Jennifer Carolyn Boggess
bo...@rempt.xs4all.nl Boudewijn Rempt
bra...@tanet.net Pat Scott (Bramble) <bra...@tanet.net>
bria...@feist.com John Roushkolb
bro...@niehs.nih.gov Lance A. Brown
br...@aracnet.com Bruce Baugh
bumg...@falcon.jmu.edu Lee S. Bumgarner
cant...@cris.com Shannon Smith
capt...@wco.com Sarah J Straith
CARL...@wuchem.wustl.edu Chris Carlisle
car...@primenet.com Monty D. Martin
cd...@freenet.uchsc.edu Paul Schiola
cd...@freenet.uchsc.edu Jim Bob Cook
cdev...@ix.netcom.com Catherine Deville
cd...@CS1.CC.Lehigh.EDU Conrad Lloyd-Knight
cdr...@prairienet.org Christopher D. Peters
ce...@freenet.uchsc.edu Scott McLean
ce...@Ra.MsState.Edu Carolyn Adams-Price
cf...@Interpath.com Dustin Emhart
chris...@redshift.com Christopher Schiffhauer
cjoh...@slonet.org Christopher B. Johnson
c...@uchicago.edu Chris Koenigsberg
coh...@mail.oit.osshe.edu Dave Cohoe
conn...@dawnstar.darc.org Paul Connelly
Co...@the-hermes.net Christopher Shove Cook
co...@U.Arizona.EDU Joseph Corso
cot...@alcor.concordia.ca Jocelyne D. Cottier
cr...@nfld.com Craig I. Coffin
cre...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Mary Creasey
cro...@servtech.com Chris Nasipak
cro...@serv2.fwi.com Don Croyle
crs...@ix.netcom.com Craig R. Smith
cwa...@interlink.com Carolyn Walker
d90...@nada.kth.se Thomas Wolmer
dac...@nwinternet.com Donna Acker
dal...@gaea.East.Sun.COM Elizabeth Dalton
d...@cthulhu.control.com Dan L. Pierson
DanaM...@aol.com Dana Morgan
DanBa...@aol.com Dan Ballard
dan...@fiction.pb.owl.de Daniel Roedding
Dark...@usa.pipeline.com Sari R Peterson
das...@idirect.com David Alan Scott
da...@frackit.com Dave Ratcliffe
dave...@pe.net dave andersen
dav...@netcom.com David Guntner
dav...@progarts.com David Whitehorn-Umphres
da...@willow.mitre.org Dawn Cooley
d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu David DeLaney
d...@atl.mindspring.com David Crossman
dch...@cme.nist.gov Donovan Chase (S)
dc...@overlord.com David Coe
dco...@cix.compulink.co.uk Daniel Cohen
den...@steelewerks.com Dennis Steele
der...@accessone.com Derek Smith
dgl...@lfwc.lockheed.com John Douglass
DHMCD...@schl-01.schl.purdue.edu Daneen McDermott
d...@kesmai.com Dave Weinstein
di...@wizard.com Diana Kaempfer
dion.m...@pobox.com Dion P. Marshall
do...@brewich.brewich.com Bill W Smith Jr
donc...@getonthe.net Don R. Waterman
do...@mailhost.cyberhighway.net David Pollard
dou...@camax.com Douglas McCorison
Dr...@cris.com Les Jenkins
dr...@uscom.com David GoWell
dr...@access.digex.net Amanda Babcock
dsg...@winternet.com Daniel S. Goodman
dsp...@mke.ab.com Diane Palme at Diver Central
d...@triskele.com David Taylor
dua...@andrew.cmu.edu Duane T. Williams
dusen...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu Rachel K. Dusenbury (dusenbury.5@osu
ebe...@ibm.net Edward Beatty
edp...@hacksaw.cac.psu.edu Eric Prescott
edw...@crl.com Gregory W. Edwards
ej...@faraday.clas.virginia.edu Edward Kilsdonk
eko...@u.washington.edu Eric Oster
el...@midway.uchicago.edu Ellen Keyne Seebacher
eric...@freenet.calgary.ab.ca Cheryl Erickson
Eric_Le...@mktplace.com Eric Leventhal
es05...@orion.yorku.ca Adrian Ivakhiv
es...@zetnet.co.uk Nigel David Edwin Bourne
esw...@psu.edu Erin S. Wayne
e...@cyberramp.net Eric Terrell
e...@GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU Evelyn Corso
Fan...@usa.net Austin Zeigler
fer...@wwa.com Karl Meyer
fe...@hearth.ultranet.com Mark Amidon
f...@senie.com Faith M. Senie
fre...@tln.net Scott Baker
fu...@wco.com Derek Thornton
G.B.S...@newcastle.ac.uk Guy Benjamin Standen
G.J.Mu...@hw.ac.uk Gerry Mulvenna
gama...@cix.compulink.co.uk Michael de Ward
ga...@gardeners.com Gary Ross
gau...@fnma.com Jonathan Gentry
gen...@mhv.net Gene Santagada
ger...@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Deborah Gwynne
gi...@ix.netcom.com Virginia Boehm
gi...@netcom.com Carrye L De Mers
gli...@eskimo.com Glenda L. Wilson
gra...@moonlion.com Andra Barrow
Grey...@pobox.com William C Waggoner
gt6...@prism.gatech.edu Joshua Bardwell
guf...@ecn.purdue.edu Lisa L. Guffey
gu...@enteract.com Tim Casady
g...@umd5.umd.edu George Baltz
ha...@gate.net Harvey Newstrom
h...@Empire.Net Howard Clements
hcha...@chat.carleton.ca Heather Chappelle
hea...@worldnet.att.net Healani Kellett
hea...@luna.co.uk E. J. Dearing
hea...@scruz.net Heather Madrone
hh...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu Jim Baranovich
hil...@enterprise.net Anthony Hilbert
h...@wwa.com Henrietta Thomas
hob...@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Telsa Gwynne
hom...@mrst.com Carl Hommel
Ho...@voicenet.com John Hook
hu...@azathoth.cynico.com Matt Hucke
i...@doc2prod.demon.co.uk Ian Michael Walden
IBon...@aol.com Isaac Bonewits
ich...@galaxy.galstar.com Igor Chudov
ImWe...@aol.com Wendy E. Polk
ios...@primenet.com Joe Bethancourt
ir...@rempt.xs4all.nl Irina Rempt
James_...@hp-pcd.cv.hp.com James D. Harwood
jaq...@en.com Jeffrey Quick
jas...@fl.net.au Jasmine Taylor
jbe...@mcs.net Jeffrey Benner
jdo...@up.net John P. Doyle
jea...@sgi.net Jeffrey Eaton
Jeff...@icanect.net Evelyn P. Henry
j...@wwa.com Jone Johnson
J...@paganfed.demon.co.uk Jem Dowse
Jenny...@MSVU.Ca Jenny Blain
jes...@intercon.com Jessica Wilbur
jfa...@inspiration.com Jeremy J. Faludi
jgmo...@oasys.dt.navy.mil J.G. Morris
jkh...@frii.com James Hamp
jma...@hooked.net JoAnn Malina
jmay...@admin5.hsc.uth.tmc.edu Jay Maynard
jmcg...@uoguelph.ca James McGarry
jmp...@ucdavis.edu John M Price, PhD
j...@sfbooks.com Joseph Lee Bernstein
j...@wolfe.net Joe Hamelin
joel...@198.145.164.1 Martha Todd-Prather
joh...@pogo.WV.TEK.COM John J. Obendorfer <joh...@pogo.wv.tek.com>
john...@ix.netcom.com John L. Shepard
John_Da...@cup.portal.com John David Galt
jpe...@u.washington.edu John Pearce
jsai...@phish.nether.net Jasmine Sailing
jtf...@dbahouston.com J. Thomas Ford
jud...@boondock.com Judith Campbell
jvan...@carbon.cudenver.edu Joan Van Becelaere
Kalee...@worldnet.att.net Kathleen H. Reed
kasc...@students.wisc.edu Karl Schmidt
ka...@princess.owl.de Soeren M Soerries
kc...@ripco.com Karen Chapdelaine
kd...@nash.tds.net Kent Dyer
k...@u.washington.edu Kathleen Bennett
k...@norfolk.infi.net Susan F.
ke...@fairbruk.demon.co.uk Kevin Blackburn
k...@shell.portal.com Kim DeVaughn
kit...@photobooks.atdc.gatech.edu Rachel Slatkin
kja...@nicom.com Karen Jarman
kle...@iglou.com Karen R. Leist
km...@clark.net Katie Mann
knew...@pacifier.com Kathryn Graham
knu...@sn.no Knut Loeken
Koenraad...@MTM.KULeuven.ac.be Koenraad Janssens
ko...@bbs.cruzio.com Don Korycansky
kris...@iglou.com Kristina Speelman
k...@teleport.com Karel William Sebek
l-ba...@ux6.cso.uiuc.edu Laura Bauer
l...@xyplex.com Lynne Chantler
lar...@teleport.com Larry Caldwell
lbra...@sodium.mps.ohio-state.edu Lori Brannigan
lca...@interaccess.com Lynn Calvin
lcou...@freenet.columbus.oh.us Lori Coulson
ldy_...@primenet.com K.A.Clay-Dewey
LEI...@MARSHALL.EDU Connie Leinen
lily...@aquilagroup.com Laine Conway
lion...@hooked.net Annelise Bazar
Li...@cris.com Brad Falk
lji...@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU Lori Jirges
lk...@ix.netcom.com Janet E. Kriv
llge...@mmm.com Laurie Gerholz
lobo...@dimensional.com Chris Yardley
lo...@oo.com Jon Randle
lor...@spectra.net Drew Halasz
lor...@mellers1.psych.berkeley.edu Lorrie Wood
low...@platsol.com Lowell Russell Morrison
lr...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Lee Ann Rabe
lsp...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Lyn Spring
m...@loomis.berkshire.net Brad Miller
maj...@nuc.net Jean Hontz
mar...@zeta-soft.com Marcia Delyria
Marg...@huey.cadvision.com pikp...@cadvision.com (Margarian Bridger)
mar...@zso.dec.com Shawn Marier
Maril...@aol.com Marilyn E. Dillon
MARK....@x400gw.ameritech.com mark roth-whitworth
mar...@interaccess.com Mark Gibbons
ma...@mbari.org Mark D. Pickerill
mar...@atlantis.demon.co.uk Martin Hancock
mar...@plaza.ds.adp.com Martin Golding
mar...@wolfenet.com Mary McGhee
mau...@ma.ultranet.com Lisa Carvalho
max...@ibid.library.gatech.edu Mary A. Axford ,
may...@buffnet.net Michele A. McCormick
mba...@lausd.k12.ca.us Matthew J. Backes
mcmu...@gcnnet.com Michael Murphy
mcr...@interserv.com Mark Crego
mer...@clam.rutgers.edu John Heavey
m...@world.std.com Mary-Anne G. Wolf
mh...@raven.phs.com Mike Hatz
mhe...@jax-inter.net Mitchell Henson
mhi...@primenet.com Marc Hirsch
mi...@mellers1.psych.berkeley.edu Michael W. Stalnaker
Mi...@tigana.demon.co.uk Mike Convey
mi...@dosbears.com Michael Lipsie
mira...@cda.mrs.umn.edu Ren Miraglio
mi...@acme.gen.nz C. de Malmanche
mist...@ix.netcom.com Noralyn D. Hughes
mkku...@genetics.washington.edu Mary K. Kuhner
mmur...@hampshire.edu Michelle Murrain
mo...@osl-south.csc.ncsu.edu Laura Keen (AKA "MoonDance")
mor...@IO.COM Morgan Vergara
moth...@ix.netcom.com Doreen Motheral
mpem...@erols.com Mark Pemburn
mplummer@main2 Morris Plummer
mpr...@Ra.MsState.Edu Marty G. Price (Gale)
mre...@bvoice.com Michael Redman
msm...@orion.it.luc.edu Michael Charles Smith
mtga...@ouray.cudenver.edu Michael-Teunis Galvin
mtki...@MailBox.Syr.Edu Matthew T. Kinney
mug...@ime.net Jim Buttitta
mul...@selway.umt.edu Christopher G. Mullin
na...@mips.pfalz.de Christian Weisgerber
nan...@ix.netcom.com Nan Alexander
nanc...@erie.net Nanci Zawadzki
nat...@col.hp.com Natalie Ramsey
ne...@iis.ee.ethz.ch Matthias Neeracher
ne...@halcyon.com Neil R. Marsh
neil_j...@mindlink.bc.ca Neil Johnson
nic...@world2u.com J. Nicol
ni...@cix.compulink.co.uk Vivienne O'Regan
n...@ACSU.Buffalo.EDU Nichola Lerczak
nmcn...@acs.bu.edu Nancy McNelly
nog...@host.vivid.net Hans B. Petersen
Noh...@acdsoft.com Dewain Delp
non...@GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU Nonie Veccia
nor...@ix.netcom.com Hilary Bartle
nwi...@sfsu.edu Victoria Shephard
o-zi...@cs.uiuc.edu Oolan M. Zimmer
ol...@viking.mv.com Olav Nieuwejaar
ollivie...@eurocontrol.fr Ollivier Robert
on...@astro.psu.edu Douglas O'Neal
pa...@comp.uark.edu Chad Kieffer
pa...@crl.com Andrew Paik
par...@io.com Abd al-Azrad
pass...@copernicus.crd.ge.com Mr. Mike" Passaretti
pa...@interlog.com Trevor Tymchuk
pbon...@slonet.org Peter A. Bonucci
pc...@idirect.com Patrick Cain
pe...@entrenet.com Sandy Harris
peg...@prossing.mv.com Peggy Rossing
pend...@galactica.it Flavio Macchietto
peter...@almac.co.uk Peter Poole
pgra...@GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU Pat Gransie
phu...@innet.be Patrick Hublou
PJA...@PSUVM.PSU.EDU Patricia Althouse
pj...@leicester.ac.uk Pete Humble
pol...@rand.lcl.lib.ne.us Meredith Campbell
pp...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk p.pinto known as "ppint."
psi...@hbs.edu Patrick Sileo
pv...@Lehigh.EDU Peter Vorobieff
py...@cc.gatech.edu Ben Phillips
qtx...@tb.ericsson.se Calle Dybedahl
Rainer...@cytel.bohica.net Rainer H. Heilke
raq...@eskimo.com Jonathan Gan
r...@btv.ibm.com Bruce Jamieson
Raven...@parti.inforum.org George W. Reinhart
rbo...@reed.edu Rory Bowman, rbo...@reed.edu
reb...@cyberramp.net Rebekah Meuir
RevK...@aol.com Rev. Kendyl Gibbons
Rgai...@cris.com Ellen W. Gaimari
rgai...@cs.bu.edu Robert Gaimari
RichardX...@ccm.jf.intel.com Rich Tietjens
ri...@bcm.tmc.edu Richard Miller
ring...@amulet.co.uk lionel pepper
rka...@yorku.ca Robyn Kalda
rlc...@animato.pn.com Rich Carreiro
r...@world.std.com Roger Hale
RLynn...@aol.com Rebekah Hill
rmy...@unicall.be Robert Mylle
rohd...@pilot.msu.edu Margaret S. Rohde
ro...@together.net Jeanne Ross
r...@advanced.org R. S. Camm
rude...@sfu.ca Charlene Rudeichuk
Ru...@vegart.mdn.com Linda Russell
RWDed...@gnn.com Randall W. Dederick
sa...@rovanion.demon.co.uk Sally Sinclair
s...@virgo.phys.unm.edu Stephanie Sonnleitner
sco...@gibbs.oit.unc.edu Dave Scocca
scott.m...@mwbbs.com Scott McGinnis
sdav...@lawson.appcomp.utas.edu.au Shaun Davis-Gluyas
Sean.H...@UCD.ie Sean Harnett
seta...@ix.netcom.com S. Tarris
sfe...@pop.mindspring.com Stephen F. Eley
s...@access.digex.net Steve Smith
sha...@Assassins.com Shadow
sha...@BEST.COM Sharon Steiner
SH...@CSTUDIES.UBC.CA Renee Shupe
s...@mail.deltanet.com Steve Hunt
ski...@sv.span.com Mark Liddington
sla...@nac.net Kathy Slawson
slr...@mindspring.com George McCoy
sme...@chat.carleton.ca Steven Meece
smi...@speedy.uwaterloo.ca Ilana Jayne Rosenshein
sm...@smurf.noris.de Matthias Urlichs
Snak...@aol.com James J. Schleich
sol_...@indra.com MIKE PALMER
sp...@getnet.com Alliasan
sro...@eskimo.com Susana Rodley
star...@sirius.com Baraka Deva-Anindya Jaden
st...@bayarea.net Stef Jones
steve....@okway.okstate.edu Steve Coltrin
ste...@uk.gdscorp.com Steve Gilham
ste...@shell.portal.com John Deltuvia
stu...@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Stuart Yeates
s...@ecs.soton.ac.uk Steve Harris
sys...@vnet.net L. David Everett
syz...@cts.com Heather Wallace
tam...@worldbenders.com Tamzen Cannoy
ta...@students.uiuc.edu Beth Tarr
tdcl...@shangrila.ecn.uoknor.edu Tracey Dion Claybon
tghr...@ucdavis.edu Thomas Hrouda
tgos...@wco.com Thomas F. Gossard
thar...@ns1.wmc.car.md.us THOMAS H. HARBOLD
the...@neca.com Jeff MacDonald
ther...@wco.com Ravan Asteris
ther...@io.com Therion Calgate
thom...@prysm.net Rebecca Thompson
t...@mbmgsun.mtech.edu Tim Holland
Timothy....@ROCHE.COM TIMOTHY NICHOLAS
ti...@eskimo.com Susan Profit
tke...@tenet.edu Tim Keene
Tony....@UK.Sun.COM Tony Walton
tpi...@prairienet.org E. Thomas Pierce
tre...@ncweb.com Ian Corrigan (Jeff Wyndham)
tree...@midcoast.com Richard Grant
tr...@mich.com Eric O. Troldahl
ty...@ding.mindspring.com John Tong
uk...@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de Felix Schroeter
va...@pacificnet.net Shemhazai.Endemoniado
vata...@cc.gatech.edu Mark Gray
vchi...@UWYO.EDU Valerie Chilson
ven...@mcs.com Jill K. Gengler
VicL...@InfoAve.Net Victor Lavigne
vko...@acad.com Valerie Koval
vlad...@chinook.physics.utoronto.ca Vladimir Smirnov
wa...@scott.net walt moffett
WBMCD...@stew-01.cea.purdue.edu William B. McDermott
webb...@iglou.com Tony Schlisser aka Webbster Crow
whei...@facstaff.wisc.edu W. Math Heinzel
whit...@gagme.wwa.com Kathryn D. Whitworth
wild...@acs.bu.edu Janice Barlow
wiz...@bga.com John P Onorato
wmj...@Gems.VCU.EDU Bill Jones
wolf...@calweb.com Karen Watson
wom...@aquilagroup.com Christopher M. Conway
wyz...@vet.purdue.edu Jason K. Lee
ydo...@phoenix.Princeton.EDU York H. Dobyns
Za...@aol.com James A. Hardison
za...@earthlink.net Cheryl Kilgore
zep...@io.com Keith E. Peyton
ze...@snowcrest.net PJ Wolf
ze...@jhu.edu Jeffrey M. Odom
zol...@magicnet.net Aaron Zollman
zun...@rintintin.Colorado.EDU Yonatan Zunger
Voted No
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
afa...@umich.edu Andrew Fabbro
ar...@netcom.com Arlie Stephens
bob...@tcsi.com Bob McCormick
bo...@datasync.com Martin H. Booda
cci...@nyx.net Chuck Cilek
cl...@columbia.edu Chris Stamper
cor.c...@min.com Patrick Cotrona
Da...@pnakotus.demon.co.uk P.Miller
dav...@ddssuprs.dickens.com David Stabler
d...@panix.com David W. Crawford
dfult...@aol.com Daniel Fulton
dha...@hal-pc.org David L. Hanson
dou...@praxis.net Douglas G. Cowan - dou...@praxis.net
dput...@teleport.com David M. Putzolu
dq...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu Doug Sterrett
el...@hurricane.net Derek Lyons
ELLI...@MTC.MID.TEC.SC.US James D. Ellisor
fg...@comtch.iea.com Frank Grigaliunas
fin...@frontiernet.net pat finch
fn...@odyssee.net Thomas Moll
ges...@stdio.com George Estes
go...@ecf.toronto.edu gopal g
hou...@cs.umn.edu Dean Hougen
jaal...@cs1.presby.edu Alan Alexander
jam...@sga1.uusa.vt.edu James Burton
jb...@andrews.edu Joseph Bell
jkr...@CS.Princeton.EDU Joshua Kramer
jo...@world.std.com Fred Cherry
j...@drum.msfc.nasa.gov J. Porter Clark
jqui...@cs1.presby.edu Jeff Quinton
j...@best.com John MacWilliamson
Ka...@crl.com Karl Golub
L...@SRUVM.SRU.EDU Elanor Sanchez
LSEA...@MU3.MILLERSV.EDU Lynne Seamans
mi...@MIT.EDU Michael Decerbo
m...@iberia.cca.rockwell.com Michael Cook
mso...@mistik.express.net Mustafa Soysal MS57
pa...@lcs.mit.edu Patrick J. LoPresti
pau...@pryan.data.binghamton.edu Paul Bobby
phil...@bright.uoregon.edu Chris Phillips
pol...@uran.informatik.uni-bonn.de A. Polzer
poo...@falcon.jmu.edu Mark Poole
pop...@rintintin.Colorado.EDU T. Alexander Popiel
Psych...@aol.com Warren J Dew
ptb...@owl.WPI.EDU Pete Bastien
ric...@paranoia.com Ricardo Hector Gonzales
rl...@bigdipper.umd.edu Robert Lord
satc...@accutek.com Stephen Satchell
shm...@cc.huji.ac.il Shmuel Arons
sh...@nyx.net Shrisha Rao
SMI...@DEA.NCI.NIH.GOV Jonathan Smith
s...@oz.plymouth.edu Steffan O'Sullivan
stai...@bga.com Dwight Brown
ste...@greenpen.demon.co.uk Stephen Tweed.
ta...@europa.com Troy Sutton
tec...@winternet.com ed bertsch
tg...@sky.net Tom Grelinger
th...@pobox.com Paul Nanson
tin...@panix.com Bruce Tindall
tla...@amug.org Todd C. Lawson
z...@cjnetworks.com Ned Fleming
Abstained
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
fek...@chi3.bc.edu Zoli Fekete
Votes in error
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
alu...@panther.Gsu.EDU T. Van Voris
! No vote statement in message
cjf...@mail.usask.ca Charlene Joan Falkiner
! No vote statement in message
jdh...@aol.com Jdhexen
! No ballot
R2...@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU Belete Muturo
! No ballot
tho...@academy.bastad.se Per Edman, 2:200/213.42
! No ballot
wjpal...@earthlink.net wm j palmer jr
! No vote statement in message
d...@bwalk.dm.com Dr. Dimitri Vulis
! Vote rejected by votetaker (untrusted site)
hamr...@csd.uwm.edu Catspaw <hamr...@csd.uwm.edu>
! Vote rejected by votetaker (no real name given)
go...@netcom.com Gary
! Vote rejected by votetaker (no real name given)
tb...@midcoast.com Liz
! Vote rejected by votetaker (no real name given)
GROUP PROPONENTS
Lorrie Wood
Okay, kiddies, we've won. It'll be somewhere between a week and a
fortnight for the group to actually be created and start showing up on
news servers.
That also means, I'm afraid, that I shan't be able to continue
the verbal fencing w/the inimitable (because nobody would want to
imitate him) Dmitri Vulis. I simply refuse to have a battle of wits
with an unarmed man. I stopped because it was clouding the issue of the
vote. It just ain't worth starting again.
I mean, he's still a dandruff-covered louse dropping with a
second-rate PhD from a third-rate university, but it's not worth
fighting about. ;)
And in honor of the happy event, a .signature change is once
again in order:
-- Lorrie shows it off.
--
soc.religion.paganism PASSED 429:61, with extra help from Dmitri Vulis:
he proved himself such a fool people voted YES to spite him.
#include <stdCDA_inspired_indecency.h>
Henrietta Thomas
In article <4ueiku$7...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
lor...@mellers1.psych.berkeley.edu (Lorrie Wood) wrote:
> Okay, kiddies, we've won. It'll be somewhere between a week and a
>fortnight for the group to actually be created and start showing up on
>news servers.
[snip]... cheap shots deleted
>>soc.religion.paganism PASSED 429:61, with extra help from Dmitri Vulis:
>>he proved himself such a fool people voted YES to spite him.
I am disappointed to learn that people voted YES just to spite Dimitri
Vulis. That is not a good reason to vote for a group. I voted YES because
I thought you had proposed an excellent moderation plan in considerable
detail, and I appreciate that. Now I begin to regret my resolve to decide
issues on the basis of merit rather than personality. :-(
Henrietta Thomas
Chicago, Illinois
h...@pop.wwa.com
Bruce Baugh
>I am disappointed to learn that people voted YES just to spite Dimitri
>Vulis. That is not a good reason to vote for a group. I voted YES because
>I thought you had proposed an excellent moderation plan in considerable
>detail, and I appreciate that. Now I begin to regret my resolve to decide
>issues on the basis of merit rather than personality. :-(
I wouldn't. I figure it this: you can't control others' votes anyway.
Yours is the only one you control. Why not use it in the way that you
think best? Don't let worries over others' bad behavior stop you from
doing what you think is right.
Bruce Baugh <*> br...@kenosis.com <*> http://www.kenosis.com/bruce
See my Web pages for...
Daedalus Entertainment, makers of Feng Shui and Shadowfist
Christlib, the mailing list of Christian & libertarian ideas
New sf by S.M. Stirling and George Alec Effing er
Unsolicited commercial e-mail will be proofread at $50/hr, min $100
Lorrie Wood
In article <4ufiru$m...@kirin.wwa.com>, Henrietta Thomas <h...@wwa.com> wrote:
>
>I am disappointed to learn that people voted YES just to spite Dimitri
>Vulis. That is not a good reason to vote for a group. I voted YES because
>I thought you had proposed an excellent moderation plan in considerable
>detail, and I appreciate that. Now I begin to regret my resolve to decide
>issues on the basis of merit rather than personality. :-(
Because of Vulis, the whole vote's dirty. I, too, was angered that
people were voting yes to spite him, but... better than agreeing with him
and voting no, I suppose. I daresay from the number of pagans I know on
that list of yes votes, we would have genuinely passed anyway, unless
some of those only voted 'cos they were scared people would actually
agree with Vulis or something.
It mars the joy of this victory, that's for damn sure.
-- Lorrie
--
soc.religion.paganism PASSED 429:61, with extra help from Dmitri Vulis:
he proved himself such a fool people voted YES to spite him.
#include <stdCDA_inspired_indecency.h>
Rebecca McQuitty
In article <4ufnko$i...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
Lorrie Wood <lor...@mellers1.psych.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> Because of Vulis, the whole vote's dirty. I, too, was angered that
>people were voting yes to spite him, but... better than agreeing with him
>and voting no, I suppose. I daresay from the number of pagans I know on
>that list of yes votes, we would have genuinely passed anyway, unless
>some of those only voted 'cos they were scared people would actually
>agree with Vulis or something.
>
> It mars the joy of this victory, that's for damn sure.
Please forgive me, but that's ridiculous. One of the prices we currently
pay for an open voting system is having people like Dimitri Vulis screw it
up occasionally. When you decide to participate you take on the risk of
having something like this happen. *All* you can do is conduct yourself
in the most ethical way possible -- a test you and your fellow proponents
have passed with flying colors. You and your group can always be proud
of that.
A lot of the names on the "Voted Yes" list belong to news.groups people
I've come to respect this summer. I don't think they would have
supported you if you didn't have a good proposal or if you hadn't
participated in good faith. The support of people worthy of respect
should be taken as a blessing and a gesture of sympathy, not as
something to beat yourself up over.
If srp has good substantive traffic and a smoothly functioning
moderation team in a year or two it will be a success. If it doesn't
have those things the most irreproachable vote in the history of Usenet
wouldn't make it success.
So forget Vulis, and get on with the important business of making srp the
group you want it to be. And congratulations!
Rebecca
Ceridwen Stuart
In article <4ugnle$3...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
rm...@figment.as.utexas.edu says...
>
>In article <4ufnko$i...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
>Lorrie Wood <lor...@mellers1.psych.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>
>> Because of Vulis, the whole vote's dirty.
I guess I'm the only clean one, because the whole thing blew
right by me and I didn't take notice until now. I vote YES
in retrospect and by my magical act of retrogressive
affirmation declare the srp newsgroup a live and vital entity.
I especially look forward to more contact with so many of
the interesting and challenging minds and hearts represented
by the long list of addresses and names I recognise with
affection.
Blessed be,
Haezl
Brigit's Garden
Haezl
Joe Bernstein
Followups set to news.groups.
In article <4ufnko$i...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
lor...@mellers1.psych.berkeley.edu (Lorrie Wood) wrote:
> Because of Vulis, the whole vote's dirty. I, too, was angered that
>people were voting yes to spite him, but... better than agreeing with him
>and voting no, I suppose. I daresay from the number of pagans I know on
>that list of yes votes, we would have genuinely passed anyway, unless
>some of those only voted 'cos they were scared people would actually
>agree with Vulis or something.
>
> It mars the joy of this victory, that's for damn sure.
Hmmm. Sorry, but I'm not going to contradict you flat-out. All the same,
you didn't get my vote for quite the reason you seem to think, either.
Until recently, I would not vote YES on a newsgroup I didn't expect to
read. I changed that policy after the failure of talk.religion.messiah,
which got many, many NO votes for no good reason I could see (though it
would have failed anyway). I now consider it acceptable to vote to
counter the apparent direction of political voting on a proposal.
This was my initial excuse for considering a YES vote on srp, then, the
fact that Mr. Vulis wanted a NO vote and was campaigning for such.
Realistically, however, I knew better than to think he had that much
weight; other concerns were also involved. I think your charter is about
the best I've seen; as I've said before, I think it ought to be added
whole to the moderators' handbook as an appendix-example. It was hard to
ignore that, once I was taking the idea of a YES vote seriously. Beyond
that, the fact is that I *do* expect to read the group at least once or
twice. I fully expect to be there for your first elections, to see how
those go. Oh, and beyond *that*, this is the only debate I've seen where
the bitterest critic wound up voting YES and the next bitterest wound up
not voting; you guys were superb proponents.
I'm not sure this all adds up to a good enough reason for a YES vote. But
it certainly isn't as bad as you make out. And I do think the news.groups
YES votes I saw (there were quite a few) weren't just rubber-stamp
approvals of whatever Mr. Vulis opposed; we're not dumb enough to give him
that kind of influence, or to vote YES without reading the CFV first.
Think of his actions as publicity -- which you've also gotten by the way
from your charter being brought up as an example in other debates -- not
as a free ride.
Congratulations.
Joe Bernstein
--
Joe Bernstein, free-lance writer, bank clerk, and bookstore worker
speaking for myself and nobody else j...@sfbooks.com
but... co-proponent for soc.history.ancient, now under
discussion in news.groups
Stuart Yeates
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Daniel A. Hartung (dhar...@mcs.com) wrote:
: RESULT
: moderated group soc.religion.paganism passes 429:61
i'd like to say a VERY big thanks to everyone concerned, especially
the votetaker, but also the proponents and everyone who put so much
effort into the creation of this newsgroup.
loam
- --
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``Perhaps one of the more important magical tools you will need to
obtain in your initial pursuit of magical secrets is a Library Card.
You may already have one of these powerful devices. If not, proceed
to your local public library and perform their appropriate ritual.''
Karel Wm. Sebek
Congradulations to the proponents of soc.religion.pagan on the approval
of the usenet community for its creation! Huzzah! Huzzah! Huzzah!
I sincerely hope that it lives long and well.
Lorrie Wood (lor...@mellers1.psych.berkeley.edu) wrote:
: In article <4ufiru$m...@kirin.wwa.com>, Henrietta Thomas <h...@wwa.com> wrote:
: >
: >I am disappointed to learn that people voted YES just to spite Dimitri
: >Vulis.
<trim>
: Because of Vulis, the whole vote's dirty.
<trim>
Who? Oh, you mean a flamewar over the creation of s.r.p[m]. *yawns*
I never knew it happened until now, _weeks_ after I voted YES due
to the excellence of the proposal and my own personal feelings.
To paraphrase an old saw, nobody ever erected a statue to a critic.
Best regards,
Karel
--
<k...@teleport.com> /|\ Karel William Sebek
<ftp://ftp.teleport.com/pub/users/kws> <http://www.teleport.com/~kws/>
Kill no trees / Keep data digital \ Do not print
Lorrie Wood
If I weren't a perfectionist, this group wouldn't be here. 8-)
Or, at the very least, wouldn't be nearly the same... I'm not
complaining about the result, I'm complaining about some of the
motivations of some of the voters. For instance, I voted YES before any
of the foofaraw started (although I should be expected to, after all).
And I know pagans who voted NO because they had technical Usenet
related concerns. All in all, though, it's a good start, and I'm
thankful we're to be allowed the chance to try.
Lorrie Wood
In article <4ui969$o...@nadine.teleport.com>,
Karel Wm. Sebek <k...@teleport.com> wrote:
>Congradulations to the proponents of soc.religion.pagan on the approval
>of the usenet community for its creation! Huzzah! Huzzah! Huzzah!
On the very very unofficial behalf of the proponents: Thanks.
>Who? Oh, you mean a flamewar over the creation of s.r.p[m]. *yawns*
More than that, to me, but yes, to the consentual convenience
that passes for reality, it shall probably not be remembered as anything
more.
>I never knew it happened until now, _weeks_ after I voted YES due
>to the excellence of the proposal and my own personal feelings.
>To paraphrase an old saw, nobody ever erected a statue to a critic.
Thanks for your vote. 8-)
Lorrie Wood
In article <4uhrbe$s...@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz>,
Stuart Yeates <stu...@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
>
>i'd like to say a VERY big thanks to everyone concerned, especially
>the votetaker, but also the proponents and everyone who put so much
>effort into the creation of this newsgroup.
As one of the noisiest aforementioned worthies: You're welcome.
-- Lorrie woulda e-mailed it, but the last three times she tried, they
all time-out-bounced. Icky.
Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq
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On 9 Aug 1996, Lorrie Wood wrote:
>[...] the verbal fencing w/the inimitable (because nobody would want to
> imitate him) Dmitri Vulis.
You mean you haven't yet seen the gruboursy ;-(?!
- --
Zoli fek...@bc.edu, keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!
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Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq
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On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, Henrietta Thomas wrote:
> I am disappointed to learn that people voted YES just to spite Dimitri
> Vulis. That is not a good reason to vote for a group. I voted YES because
> I thought you had proposed an excellent moderation plan in considerable
> detail, and I appreciate that. Now I begin to regret my resolve to decide
> issues on the basis of merit rather than personality. :-(
It was not a mere personality issue - there was massive inappropriate
campaigning against the group, complete with posting filled-in NO ballots
to unrelated groups. The only way to counter such actions is for enough
people to vote YES (although if I remember correctly I myself voted
ABSTAIN to make the point not to react with jerking knee ;-))...
- --
Zoli fek...@bc.edu, keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!
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Anne E. Stevens
On 10 Aug 1996, Lorrie Wood wrote:
> --
> soc.religion.paganism PASSED 429:61, with extra help from Dmitri Vulis:
> he proved himself such a fool people voted YES to spite him.
Wow, maybe we could get Dmitri involved with the con side of the
s.r.mormon debate...? Do you rent him out by any chance?
;)
-anne
--
Anne Stevens I need Christ. I love him. And while
Smith College I am not perfect and I am not all
Education & Child Study knowing... I am not blinded by the
aste...@sophia.smith.edu beliefs of others, either.
http://www.smith.edu/~astevens -Sherrie
Chris Johnson
lor...@mellers1.psych.berkeley.edu (Lorrie Wood) wrote:
> Because of Vulis, the whole vote's dirty.
[snip]
> It mars the joy of this victory, that's for damn sure.
>
Well, it is sort of like sand in your candy bar. But true chocoholics
will still eat the candy, and true usenet fans will still enjoy having
a well-considered, properly moderated Pagan newsgroup. Patcherself on
the back, and enjoy.
BB (and TNX)
Chris J
Ashley Branchfeather
In article <4uj2co$p...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
lor...@mellers1.psych.berkeley.edu (Lorrie Wood) wrote:
> If I weren't a perfectionist, this group wouldn't be here. 8-)
The group isn't actually here yet, is it? Have any of the proponents
issued a newgroup message yet? No newgroup message for
soc.religion.paganism was in evidence at ftp.uu.net...
Yeah, I know I said I was going to abstain, but...
>soc.religion.paganism PASSED 429:61, with extra help from Dmitri Vulis:
>he proved himself such a fool people voted YES to spite him.
--
Ashley Branchfeather
Lorrie Wood
In article <AshleyB-1208...@news.halcyon.com>,
Ashley Branchfeather <Ash...@halcyon.com> wrote:
>
>The group isn't actually here yet, is it? Have any of the proponents
>issued a newgroup message yet? No newgroup message for
>soc.religion.paganism was in evidence at ftp.uu.net...
That's because, as I've said in earlier messages, tale gives
a little breather room between result and reality. The newgroup will
be sent out this week. Perhaps non-coincidentally, it's the day
before I get the keys to our new house (yippee!).
>Yeah, I know I said I was going to abstain, but...
Either way, yes no or abstain, thanks for your interest. Apathy's
worse than any of the above...
-- Lorrie
--
soc.religion.paganism PASSED 429:61, with extra help from Dmitri Vulis:
he proved himself such a fool people voted YES to spite him.
#include <stdCDA_inspired_indecency.h>
Jasmine Sailing
In article <4ufnko$i...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
Lorrie Wood <lor...@mellers1.psych.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> Because of Vulis, the whole vote's dirty. I, too, was angered that
>people were voting yes to spite him, but... better than agreeing with him
>and voting no, I suppose. I daresay from the number of pagans I know on
>that list of yes votes, we would have genuinely passed anyway, unless
>some of those only voted 'cos they were scared people would actually
>agree with Vulis or something.
>
I, for one, voted yes the day the CFV opened so Vulis didn't have
an effect on me. I voted yes because 1. The charter was impressive.
2. I definitely think there should be a big 8 group (that doesn't
get hit with the trendoid jokes about innacurate stereotyping of
pagans) for pagans. I did address the Vulis posts on alt.christnet
and such long after I voted. I can do that. I wasn't a proponent. =>
Now I'll probably just get the group I AM a proponent for whacked
over it. Ah well, I have a difficult time ignoring outright lies
and slander.
Jasmine Sailing Cyber-Psychos AOD jsai...@netonecom.net
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Jasmine Sailing: editor/publisher (pusher of obscenities), writer and
musician (lost in the schizoid realms), The Blasted One (worshipper of
Jellyfish), sysadmin (masochist), single parent (irresponsible slut),
twonk (censor), bisexual (waffler), crashing off happy pills (bummed).
Jasmine Sailing
>The group isn't actually here yet, is it? Have any of the proponents
>issued a newgroup message yet? No newgroup message for
>soc.religion.paganism was in evidence at ftp.uu.net...
It turned up on nyx today. I subscribed but there aren't yet any
posts.
Felis Uncia
Jasmine Sailing (jsai...@nyx10.cs.du.edu) wrote:
: In article <AshleyB-1208...@news.halcyon.com>,
: Ashley Branchfeather <Ash...@halcyon.com> wrote:
: >The group isn't actually here yet, is it? Have any of the proponents
: >issued a newgroup message yet? No newgroup message for
: >soc.religion.paganism was in evidence at ftp.uu.net...
: It turned up on nyx today. I subscribed but there aren't yet any
: posts.
<G.> The modbot software's in process of being coded. It should be
ready shortly, from what I'm told. _Please_ be patient with us. We're
pedalling as fast as we can.... ;)
: Jasmine Sailing Cyber-Psychos AOD jsai...@netonecom.net
Best,
---Ounce (Felis uncia)
<ac...@netcom.com>
Sebastian Day
In article <AshleyB-1208...@news.halcyon.com>,
Ash...@halcyon.com says...
> In article <4uj2co$p...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
> lor...@mellers1.psych.berkeley.edu (Lorrie Wood) wrote:
>
> > If I weren't a perfectionist, this group wouldn't be here. 8-)
>
> issued a newgroup message yet? No newgroup message for
> soc.religion.paganism was in evidence at ftp.uu.net...
--
As of Aug. 16 the "soc.religion.paganism" newsgroup is listed on my news
server, though nobody has posted any messages in it yet. I might have to
change that though. :)
In Truth We Meet
Sebastian Day
sd...@ionsys.com
Thomas
David Sanders wrote:
>
> In a previous article, jsai...@nyx10.cs.du.edu (Jasmine Sailing) says:
> (snip)
> >It turned up on nyx today. I subscribed but there aren't yet any
> >posts.
>
>
> Bonfire
> ae...@yfn.ysu.edu
It's on Netcom, and there was a test post from the Silverdragon.
- Thomas
David Sanders
In a previous article, jsai...@nyx10.cs.du.edu (Jasmine Sailing) says:
>>The group isn't actually here yet, is it? Have any of the proponents
>>issued a newgroup message yet? No newgroup message for
>>soc.religion.paganism was in evidence at ftp.uu.net...
>
David Crossman
mar...@cyberramp.net (Haezl) wrote:
>In article <4uh9fi$f...@newshost.cyberramp.net>, mar...@cyberramp.net
>says...
>>
>>In article <4ugnle$3...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
>>rm...@figment.as.utexas.edu says...
>>>>In article <4ufnko$i...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
>>>Lorrie Wood <lor...@mellers1.psych.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> >>>Because of Vulis, the whole vote's dirty.
>I guess I'm the only clean one, because the whole thing blew
>right by me and I didn't take notice until now. I vote YES
>in retrospect and by my magical act of retrogressive
>affirmation declare the srp newsgroup a live and vital entity.
Who is Vulis?
I voted, but I've never heard of this person.
Course, I haven't been able to keep up with newsgroups much in the
last 6 months...
<woof>
David
Atlanta has survived the Olympics, much to the surprise of all.
Don't you wish you could telecommute too?
Wolf | David Crossman
wo...@techwood.org | http://www.mindspring.com/~dcc/
This is the fourth line, isn't it?
Chris Y
In article <4v0gt5$6...@nyx10.cs.du.edu>,
Jasmine Sailing <jsai...@nyx10.cs.du.edu> wrote:
>I, for one, voted yes the day the CFV opened so Vulis didn't have
>an effect on me. I voted yes because 1. The charter was impressive.
>2. I definitely think there should be a big 8 group (that doesn't
Me, I never got into any of the brawling, but I also voted for it the day
the CFV came through. I too was impressed by the charter, and all the care
and attention to detail that went into it. And, like all the other
proponents and yes-voters, I think the group is a Good Thing (tm) for the
usenet community. It just popped up today on my news server, and I'll be
looking forward to seeing some traffic! Congrats, folks!
--
lobo...@pagan.net * pgp key @ www.pagan.net/~lobotomy/ * jyar...@nyx.net
I object to the term "politically correct." It refers to politics, a single
socio-religious belief system. I therefore propose in its place the term
"panattitudinally acceptable" which allows for diversity in spiritual and
social beliefs. To put it another way, PC is definately not PA.. :)